111 [Healing Series] Boundaries Part One with Lesli A. Johnson, MFT

Transcript

Full Show Notes: http://www.adopteeson.com/listen/111

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.

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Haley - This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees, by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

(intro music)

Haley - You’re listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I’m your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves. So they know from personal experience, what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today we are taking your questions, about boundaries. Let’s listen in.

(upbeat music)

Haley - I’m so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Lesli Johnson! Welcome Lesli!

Lesli - Thank you so much, thanks. I’m so glad to be back. I’ll apologize in advance for my voice, I’m getting over a little allergy thing and I know you’re not feeling at the top of your game either, so, we’ll do our best.

Haley - We’re both sick, it’s no problem, listen, we’re just a little bit lower than normal, and people are gonna love it. Okay I asked on social media, because I knew I was talking to you, and we were gonna talk about boundaries. And I asked people to send us their questions. because they really need help navigating this area. And one of-

Lesli - Perfect.

Haley - My funny followers said, what are boundaries? ‘Cause we struggle with boundaries.

Lesli - That’s a good question.

Haley - We struggle with boundaries!

Lesli - Me too!

Haley - So why don't you answer the basic, what are boundaries?

Lesli - I get that question a lot too, and I know a lot of my clients also say that they struggle setting boundaries and keeping boundaries. And I guess this is probably not the dictionary definition, but I think it’s a way of establishing guidelines for relationships, finding what feels right in ways that we can sort of know where our edges are. We wanna let in, and how we want those relationships to work. And then being able to actually verbalize that, and let the other people in our lives, whether it’s you know, our adoptive parents, our birth parents, our partners, our friends, the people that we work with, just letting them know what our boundaries are.

Haley - Now it sounded like, a lot of adopted people, struggle with this, letting people know where the edges are. Why would you say that could be?

Lesli - I think in terms of like what we’ve talked about before, you and I, and like I said with many of my clients. So for an adopted person, if that person was separated from their biology early in life, if they had multiple placements before coming to their adoptive families, there were so many things that happened that were not, events that happened that were not events in their control. And I think boundaries are a way of exerting, although that sounds really like a strong word, but I think boundaries are way of having some control. Having some control over who and what we let into our lives.

Haley - I like that idea about having some control back. And you mentioned that we may need to verbalize our boundaries, that sounds a little bit scary.

Lesli - Right, it does.

Haley - But how else are people supposed to know? Talk a little bit about that.

Lesli - I mean I guess we can verbalize our boundaries and have it be a conversation. It doesn't have to be, I mean I think sometimes the word boundary, it sounds so strong and direct and rigid. And I guess I don't really see it that way, it’s about talking about what works for us and what doesn’t work for us. And we can of course act out our boundaries. But I think if we’re working towards health and well being, that being able to have those conversations with people that are in our lives is a much easier, well I shouldn't say easier, it's a much more lasting way to, to work with boundaries. And I think it’s also important to remind ourselves that boundaries don't have to be rigid. They can be more fluid, so we might start out in a relationship with someone and have certain boundaries and they change over time, whether they become more relaxed or they become more firmed up.

Haley - I think you're about to give us some in real life examples of what these conversations could look like.

Lesli - okay.

Haley - Alright, so here’s our first question. “I think it’s super important to talk about setting boundaries of reunion. Not doing that, I think I really messed up my reunion with my grandmother. So, advice on how bring that up without people feeling hurt.”

Lesli - I think that it is very important in the initial stages of reunion, to have guidelines for what each person wants the relationship to look like in the initial phases. I think all too often people are either really timid and afraid, and so they are so vigilant over each contact or each phone call. Is this person gonna call back, are they gonna return my email. I think if we can talk about that in the initial, the initial part of the reunion, this is really scary for me. And I'm a person that gets triggered when I don’t have my voicemails returned, or my emails returned. So setting a boundary can also be asking for what you need. I'm just gonna ask that you, you be mindful of that and know that that is worrisome for me when I don't hear back. I mean that’s a way of, I think, I don't know if you agree, but setting expectations is also a way of having a boundary.

Haley - So that's something we can do at the start if we’re noticing our emails not getting returned in a timely fashion in our opinion.

Lesli - right.

Haley - But what if you let things kinda go, and then you wanna come back and say, okay, I’ve really not expressed my desires or needs before, how do you start that conversation?

Lesli - so when you say let things, go, tell me what you mean, like maybe--

Haley - Well this person’s question, was saying that she really hoped that she, or she should have set boundaries at the beginning of reunion, and she didn’t do that. So now how does she bring it up, and talk about, likely what she is hoping for, for herself and prob for her grandmother?

Lesli - I think just having that conversation and again I’m may be oversimplifying it, because that’s not going to be an easy one to have. Especially, and I’m not sure about this person if they’re, I wish I had a tiny bit more information because I’m wondering if they, there was too much contact at first and now she wants to kind of pull back, or if there was lapses and now she wants to become, get closer. But I think being able to say, you know, even just what she said in that note to you, or that email to you, I think I wish I would have set more clear expectations at the onset. And now I'm regretting that and I think I’ve ruined the reunion with my grandmother. If she were able to say that to her grandmother, I wonder how her grandmother would react? I feel like I messed up because we didn't talk about our expectations of each other when we first met. Is there room for us to start again? You know, being honest and open and transparent. And of course people are gonna get hurt, especially in reunion, they’re gonna get hurt. And their feelings are gonna get hurt. And who they thought the other person is, isn’t gonna meet who the person actually is. Or maybe it is, but not maybe not initially. And so again, just being able to take care of oneself and convey again those expectations with the other.

Haley - I think this question really goes along with what you’re saying. “My first mother wants me to let her know how often I’ll be in touch. She believes it will assuage her anxieties about losing me again. I want to make her feel better but truthfully, I don't know what the answer is. And I'm scared to overpromise and under deliver. What do I tell her?”

Lesli - That’s a beautiful question and I hear that so, I have so many clients right now and oddly, are just at one time, right now that are in reunion that are in the initial stages. And really trying to navigate the complexities and one theme I’m very very aware of, is that the anxiety that, that first parents have, first mothers have, is very very similar to the anxiety that the adoptee has is that “I'm gonna be left again. I’m gonna, if I don't say it right, if I don't type it right, if I don’t make sure every single bit of my communication is understood in the way that I'm trying to convey, I'm out of here.” So I think that mother’s wish and desire is a good one. It’s fine for her to ask for that and the adoptee may have to say, I understand what you’re asking. I'm not going anywhere. But I also can't, I'm not able to say exactly when I'm gonna reach out to you. But if they are used to talking every week, and one week lapses, that they're gonna reconnect. Or if they plan to talk every other day, and a few days go by, that they're gonna reconnect. And maybe that can be enough. because I don't think the onus should be put on either person to try to take care of the other. I mean, that’s what we do in relationship, but I think it’s too much to ask one person to assure the other when they’re both having similar anxieties, does that make sense?

Haley - Yeah, definitely. But I like that, you can say, I can't exactly give you, like the times in my day where Ii can reply. You know, like especially if it’s like, in the honeymoon period, because it can be so fast and furious and you literally can’t keep up.

Lesli - Right.

Haley - But I like that, if we don't hear from each other in a few days, let’s give each other permission to reach out again.

Lesli - Of course I think it also speaks to the hope that in these relationships, that everyone’s doing their own work. So that the onus to assure and reassure the other isn’t misplaced.

Haley - Okay. Next question. “I have a paternal sister who is kind and nice, but wants more from me than I can emotionally give at this time. My sister has sort of a angel or hero complex for me, and she thinks me being adopted out was a lucky thing, because her life with our father was horrific. She’s almost jealous, it’s a lot. I wanna have a relationship with her, but I can’t be smothered.” Thoughts on that Lesli.

Lesli - Again I feel like it’s a fair, it’s a fair conversation. These questions are so well articulated, it’s almost like they could just say exactly that to the other person. And maybe they are gonna be met with openness and maybe they’re not. But I think it’s fair to be able to say, “I'm so happy to be in contact with you, I'm enjoying getting to know you, I'm enjoying this relationship, it seems like we have differing, a few different feelings about our father. I'm hoping that you’ll let me kinda go at this relationship at my own pace.” So again I guess there is a little, I keep saying that the onus shouldn’t be put on the adopted person, but I guess there is a little bit of onus to explain and assure this person that you wanna be in relationship with them but that it just needs to go a little slower right now. She could say, “I really wanna be able to take this all in, and process it just at a little bit of a slower pace.”

Haley - And I’m thinking of being on the receiving end of a statement like that. And for me that feels like, okay, it’s a little bit much for you, like that doesn’t hurt my feelings to hear that and be like, okay maybe we’re in touch maybe once a month, instead of, I’m texting you every day.

Lesli - Right.

Haley - I think, I love how you phrased it and I think there’s a real, I think there’s a real problem in boundary conversations that I have seen and personally been a part of, where we let things build up over time, over time, over time, to we’re like, oh my gosh we’ve had it! And we have this big kind of blow up. But if you have taken the time to think about it ahead of time and say, okay, this is really not working and you can phrase it in this really gentle, compassionate matter, outcome’s probably better than, if you have a big fight about it.

Lesli - Right. And I agree with you, that when we let things build up over time that, that what comes out is gonna be an exaggerated reaction rather than a thought out response.

Haley - Okay. Next. “In reunion with birth families, how can we know if we are being too much?” In quotation marks. “How often should an adoptee contact a new family member in order to stay connected without appearing clingy?” Oooh, there’s probably not a right answer for this one. But what are your general thoughts on this?

Lesli - Well that’s interesting, there’s not a right answer, but just even that this person is describing themselves or thinking of themselves as too much or clingy in their desire to be connected with their birth family is kinda of revealing. And I would wanna rephrase that or reframe it. And again, how can this person, he or she ask and convey like, “I really am excited about this relationship and I just, I wanna, I want to be able to reach out and I know there’s probably, you have probably some feelings too and what feels good for you? What feels good for me and how can we meet in the middle somewhere?”

Haley - Okay, this one is, this one is a little different, in it’s not the time or contact necessarily. “Finding the boundary between birth mom and adoptee, between being honest with your feelings and not pushing them away. So I wanna let her know how I'm feeling, but then I don't wanna be brutally honest in fear that i’ll push her away. And she may think this is too much for her or doesn’t need this added stress right now.” So I think that question really is, are we oversharing, what’s too much information, I think this happened to me personally in reunion as well.

Lesli - Okay.

Haley - In feeling like when I was expressing things, I was being a little maybe too brutally honest about things that were challenging. So yeah, what are your thoughts on this one?

Lesli - Well I think again, this idea that in a perfect world, everyone in the adoption equation is doing their own work and I know that’s not actually happening.

Haley - What?

Lesli - I know, so I think it’s important to remember too, how would, how, when we get in reunion or when we are in reunion, especially in the initial stages, even though we have built this up, and it’s a very big deal, it’s still a new relationship. So how would we talk with another new person that we met? Maybe it’s a friend or coworker. Would we initially start sharing our deepest feelings? We probably wouldn’t. I mean, this isn't an exact comparison, but I think it is important to be aware and be mindful that this is a new relationship, and so we do wanna kind of meter what we share initially. As we build trust, and we get to know each other, we can start to talk about those more intimate details and see where that goes. And also if we allow for a little time for the relationship to develop, we can also see what the other person, how much they can sort of handle or take,That doesn’t mean we still can't share this information we wanna share, but we’ll have a better idea rather than just dive right in. I just think so often we’ve built, and I say we, meaning myself as well, we’ve built up the reunion and we’ve been thinking about this person primarily, birth mother, biological family as well, for so long. And we’ve imagined who they are or what they look like and what they’re doing. And so when we finally have the opportunity to meet them, we do wanna share everything so quickly. But I do think it’s important to establish the relationship a bit first.

Haley - And I think this is a good time for a pitch for therapy, or, a trusted adoptee friend, right? Because there are things we have to talk about, about reunion and often it’s the other person in reunion that’s getting all the bulk of our feelings and things, right?

Lesli - right.

Haley - So maybe there's another outlet we can use to channel some of that.

Lesli - Find an adoption informed therapist, a support group, a friend who was adopted, someone who really gets it. And they don't necessarily have to be in reunion, but they’ll still get it. And yeah, talk with them as you’re building the relationship.

Haley - Here’s our last question for today. “So my reunion with my bio mother failed after eight months. We had little boundaries with each other and she ultimately rejected me for a second time.” Just an aside, I am so sorry, secondary rejection is so painful, so I’m sorry you went through that. Back to the question. “I have recently come into contact with my half sister on my paternal side and I don’t wanna make the same mistakes. I want this relationship to have the necessary boundaries but honestly I don't know what that looks like.” So going back to what you were talking about at the very start of the show today and what boundaries are, and there are edges, and you know, these guides for us and for the other person, what can we do, going into another reunion like that, ahead of time, to kind of decide what is this gonna look like? Is there a plan we can make? What's your advice for this person?

Lesli - Yeah, I pause because it sounds like she, in some ways, he or she is blaming themselves for the failed reunion. And you know, it takes two people in the relationship, so I wanna remind people of that. So I think moving forward in his or her relationship with the half sister, is just maybe having that, having again, having a conversation. “Listen, this happened in my reunion with my birth mother, and it was heartbreaking.” And secondary rejection is heartbreaking. I have seen it all too often with my clients. And explain to his or her half sister, “I don't want that to happen here. So this is kind of what my expectations are.” If the person doesn’t feel like their good at setting or managing expectations or boundaries, say that. “How can we come up with a plan together that works for both of us as we start to get to know each other. And can we be honest if something’s not working, because I don't think that happened in my reunion, in the initial parts of the reunion with my birth mother, so I just don't want that to repeat itself again.” And I'm oversimplifying, I know people are probably thinking “oh, she’s making it sound so easy,” and it isn’t easy because these are conversations, and we’re talking primarily about reunion and I know possibly in the next episode we’ll talk about setting boundaries in other relationships. But I think that the reunion, the relationships often feel so tenuous. And again I’m thinking about clients who have just talked about it. And my own experience in reunion too, were just again, every time you talk or you email, you just agonize over the words. “Is this, am I gonna offend, am I going to scare her off, am I going to say something wrong.” And so I think that it makes sense that there's such a vigilance around, especially if this person had the initial failed relationship, that it makes sense that he or she would be so vigilant around this next connection. But just to be able to even say that to the person.

Haley - I don’t think it’s, like, simplified advice that you’re giving either, Lesli. Like I think it’s so helpful just to know that you can literally have, I mean it could be like a five minute conversation saying this.

Lesli - Right!

Haley - Like, “I’m afraid of the reunion, my last reunion broke down, I’m kind of afraid, can we just kind of talk about what our expectations are.” Like it can be a really simple conversation.

Lesli - Right.

Haley - Even if it feels really scary. If you’re thinking about, if you’re on the receiving end of this conversation, like as most reasonable people would be like, “oh great, I never thought of that, let’s talk about it.” It doesn’t have to be this huge, huge major thing.

Lesli - Right, right.

Haley - But yet it can make such a huge impact.

Lesli - Right. And we’re talking about relationships, and I think, as other episodes have talked about relationships, adoptees in relationships is sometimes tricky.

Haley - Just sometimes.

Lesli - It’s a generalization, if I’ve ever heard one. But there are challenges and it’s, again, I think it stems from that primary relationship being severed so early.

Haley - And you know honestly, I think listening to an episode like this, just thinking about what do you want your boundaries to look like, what do you want your contact to look like, I think those are all really gonna set people up for success in these relationships.

Lesli - I hope so, and I think so.

Haley - Yeah. Any last thoughts on this topic before we wrap up?

Lesli - No, I think we covered a lot and I hope people get some useful information from it.

Haley - I think they will. Okay, Lesli, where can we connect with you online?

Lesli - You can connect with me at my website, www.yourmindfulbrain.com, Instagram @yourmindfulbrain and Twitter @LesliAJohnson.

Haley - Wonderful, thank you so much for your wisdom.

Haley - Today’s questions were from listeners who follow us on social media. You can find links to all the places we are on the website, AdopteesOn.com. We are on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. And you heard a lot of questions from our secret Facebook group that is for Patreon supporters. And if you want to support the show, you can also find out about our Adoptees Off Script podcast which again is also just for supporters. Go to AdopteesOn.com/partner for details.

Next week we are back to our Sixties Scoop series, thanks so much for listening, let’s talk again next Friday.

109 [Healing Series] Self-Compassion with Kristin Jones, CMHC

Transcript

Full show notes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/109

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye

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This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees, by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

(intro music)

You’re listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I’m your host Haley Radke. And this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today we are talking about self-compassion. Let’s listen in.

(upbeat music)

Haley - I’m so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On today, Kristin Jones. Welcome Kristin!

Kristin - Thank you Haley, it’s great to be here.

Haley - I’m so excited to talk with you, Kristin today, and since it’s the first time that you’re on the show, can you share just a little bit of your story with us?

Kristin - Sure! So, I was adopted in 1968, it was a closed adoption as so many were back then. And I went for a long time in my life with every once in awhile, I would have questions or wonder about my birth parents but I didn’t really pursue that too much. I was pretty sensitive to my adoptive parents and didn’t wanna hurt feelings. And then about 8 years ago, I had been toying with the idea for about maybe 15 years about you know, I’m gonna go search and see if I can find these people. But I didn't really have any good leads. And then about 8 years ago, my dad, my adoptive father was retiring. And he cleaned out a file cabinet and it had some paperwork from the hospital that they weren’t supposed to receive. And on this paperwork was my birth mother’s full name, and address at the time that she had me. And oh, and also my birth father’s name was on this paperwork too so –

Haley - Wow! That’s amazing!

Kristin - Oh, very much so. I feel very lucky, a lot of adoptees don’t have that kind of information to start with. And so we were able to use her address, my birth mother’s address to kind of, suss out what high school she may have attended back then. She was 18 when she had me. And we found her in the yearbook. And this high school a website for their reunion page and it had all these addresses and contact information for their graduates. So I was able to send her a letter. And she did respond, and she requested that I not contact her again, and that I not contact anyone in the family. And so I, you know, it was one of those secondary rejections that so many of us experience. And it was devastating. And so we haven’t had any contact for the last 8 years. And then my birth father, we kind of tracked him down in the same way. He went to a high school that was not the same high school as hers but nearby. And so we found him in the yearbook and then found an address for him and sent him a letter. And he responded and we have kind of one of those lukewarm reunions, you know? So we talk occasionally, we’ve met a few times. And that’s kind of the extent of it.

Haley - Okay. So you know what we go through. You are very much an adoptee that understands, I’m so sorry for the secondary rejection. I know that intimately.

Kristin - Yes.

Haley - Okay, well, you’re the perfect person to talk to us about today, about self-compassion. So you know that we’ve talked briefly about self-compassion before on this show, we’ve mentioned Kris Neff’s book about self-compassion and a few people have mentioned it here and there. And I feel like it’s kind of a buzz word online. But like, what is that? What is self-compassion? Sounds kind of elusive.

Kristin - Right yes. Completely. So I would say that self-compassion is the act of treating yourself in a kind way, much the way you would your best and dearest friend. A lot of us really struggle with that, we aren’t very kind to ourselves. The other element of self-compassion is that, it really is an action. It’s an active practice. And we can talk more about kind of, ways to do that as we go along. But when I was, so I’ve been incorporating self-compassion in a lot of my therapy work for about the past year and a half. I've really brought it into focus in my therapy work. And then I also teach yoga part time, and I was preparing a yoga and self-compassion workshop, and I read this quote by Tera Brach, and she says that when we feel held by a caring presence, by something that’s larger, our small frightened fragmented self, we can hold that in loving kindness and kind of repair those fragments. And when I read that, that’s a summary of that quote, and when I read that, it was almost this aha moment for me that really resonated in terms of adoption specifically. Because I think so many of us, that’s what we’re seeking, right? There’s a young part of us that wants to feel held and loved and cared for by a nurturing parent. And so it was kind of this, everything from then on, that I read about self-compassion, I would see through this lens of adoption.

Haley - Oh my gosh, well when you say fragmented, I mean, of course. That’s how we feel.

Kristin - Right, exactly.

Haley - Wow, okay. So this sounds like, of course, adoptees need to have compassion for themselves, but what does that look like in practice, being kind to yourself?

Kristin - Yeah, so, maybe I can back up. You know, we all have experiences, all of us as humans, have early experiences that kind of shape our core beliefs about ourselves. And many times these experiences are even pre-verbal, you know so when we’re very, very young. And a lot of times, these experiences, these core beliefs are things about ourselves and then things about the world around us and others. So for example, through adoption, some of my core beliefs are that I’m unlovable, that people always leave me, that you know, I’m rejected. Like those are some of those core beliefs and those get triggered. You know, we talk about triggers a lot, another buzz word. And those beliefs often get triggered by experiences that are happening in the present moment that aren’t necessarily aren’t related to that belief. And so, through self-compassion, we can first recognize that those emotions are being triggered and those beliefs are being triggered.

Haley - Okay I know a lot of adoptees feel those ways and have those you know, core beliefs about ourselves. Like, we’re unwanted, and just feels like such a big huge thing to overcome and that yeah, we get triggered all the time. And so how does self-compassion this kind of fit into that?

Kristin - Yeah, so I think most of us are pretty aware when we get triggered, like we notice some kind of flare up of emotion. And that awareness, if we can step back from that with mindfulness and just observe ourselves experiencing that emotion. That’s the first step to being self-compassionate is you have to have that awareness, that mindful awareness, that you know, I’m having this emotion brought up, or this belief brought up. And to be curious about that, what is this really about, is this really what’s happening in the moment. Or is this something that’s you know, past. And then from there, we can take a moment to just remind ourselves that, pain and suffering are a part of everyday experience and many adoptees have a lot of pain that they deal with. And we don’t feel so alone and isolated in our pain. And then to continue that, is to take a breath, to talk to our self in a kind and caring way. So I might say to myself, this is a moment where I’m feeling some pain, I don’t feel lovable and that’s painful to me. And so I’m just gonna hold myself here, metaphorically speaking of course, and show myself a little love and compassion for my pain, and my suffering. And I might even say things to myself that I would want to hear from a parent like, I’m not gonna leave you, I’m right here for you. And really kind of trying to fill that need that we have. And then, we can go on to do activities that really help us kind of soothe ourselves in that escalated emotion.

Haley - Okay, it sounds like there is a big gap between the parts of ourselves that are really critical and very hard on ourselves, to getting to the point where we can just hold ourselves and speak kindly. So can you fill in, fill in the steps in between that? What’s a first step towards that? Okay, so we have awareness in the moment?

Kristin - Yep.

Haley - Then?

Kristin - So then the next step would be, okay, I’m aware that maybe this isn’t, how I’m feeling isn’t necessarily related to what’s happening right now. And then to kind of turn that lens, I think one great way to think about this is, if a dear friend were having this experience, this emotion, or this belief, if a friend was saying to you, Haley, I feel really unlovable right now. Like you probably wouldn’t say, suck it up. You probably wouldn’t say like, oh that’s no big deal that you feel that way. Like you would probably take some time with them and say things like, you know, but really, you are lovable and you’ve gone through hard things in your life and it’s understandable that you feel this way, I get it. ‘Cause I would feel unlovable too if I experienced that. But really that’s just an emotion that you’ll have that passes and just know that I’m never gonna leave you and that I’m here for you.

Haley - Well it’s a lot easier to think about saying that to someone else--

Kristin - Yes!

Haley - Than ourselves. Okay, so would you tell a client that? To like, practice talking to a friend if they were experiencing this?

Kristin - Yes, absolutely. And there’s a lot of different writing, like journaling you can do about this. So you might take one of those beliefs that you know is a common belief of yours, like mine is I’m unlovable and that’s kind of a belief that gets triggered a lot for me. And then you might sit down and write a letter as if you are writing to a friend who told you they were unlovable. So you practice this way of you know, talking, and it really is easier when you think about it in terms of you know, something we would say to a friend. Because we really would never talk to our friends the way we talk to ourselves.

Haley - Yeah, no kidding. Or we would have no friends.

Kristin - Yes. Exactly right. And that’s actually something really interesting about a self-compassion practice, because when we’re triggered, what triggers is the fight, flight, or freeze response. And there’s research that shows that when we have self-compassion, that the reaction that’s triggered in us, is the system called the tend and befriend system. And that really is the system of attachment. So if you think about adoptees, we have severed attachments when we’re born. And, or sometimes later if you’re adopted at a later age. So we have these severed attachments, so our attachment system has been wounded in this way. And so when we engage in a practice of self-compassion, we’re really engaging that tend and befriend system. And in that way I think we can heal our own attachment wounds.

Haley - So over time, building this scale, your brain kind of retrains itself to not necessarily to go to be like, oh my gosh, I’m the worst.

Kristin - Right.

Haley - And then you learn to have a kind response to yourself.

Kristin - Yes.

Haley - And so if I say that over time, like, how long does it take to learn to do this? Like, to me, I mean I’m kind of laughing about it, but this sounds very stretching and very challenging, especially for people that are very wounded. And like, could very well like not believe any of these things about themselves. Like yes, I actually am unlovable. So it feels like a longer path than just okay, now I know this tool, I’m gonna write myself some letters and I’m good.

Kristin - Right, that does sound so easy, but it’s not easy. I really think of it as a practice and I think for a lot of us it’s a lifetime practice. You know, it gets easier as time goes on. But I think we’re always gonna have moments where that stuff gets triggered, where we can’t be kind to ourselves, where it just kind of, you know sometimes we go back after. After that period of self-loathing, or self-hatred, kind of is over, we can go back and readdress it. But I do think it’s a practice, I don’t think it’s ever something that, you know it’s not a checkbox that you can check off a list and say oh okay, now I’m always compassionate to myself, I’m always kind to myself, check. Did that. I like lists, so, I’m a big checklist person.

Haley - Me too! I’ve never thought of putting kindness and like my healing on a checklist.

Kristin - Well you’d never check it off fully, probably.

Haley - No, so why would I put it on a list if I know I’m not gonna get to it.

Kristin - But you’d work towards it. It’s a work in progress, we’re all works in progress.

Haley - Yes, very good. Okay, why don’t you just walk us through again, just another example of what this looks like? Like a, experience in your life maybe, that you had that you’re like okay, I used self-compassion and this is how this benefitted. Just to give us a picture of what this looks like in day to day life.

Kristin - Oh yeah, I have many of these experiences, they come up all the time. Last summer, my family and I, we were vacationing on the beach and my husband and the kids were down at the beach and I was walking down to meet them. And I sent my husband a text message and I said hey, where are you guys? I’m coming down, and he sent back a picture of the kids in front of the ocean.

Haley - With landmarks?

Kristin - No, landmarks, just ocean, right? It was a great picture, but I was like, okay, you know, just could not fathom where they were from this picture. And almost instantaneously I had this thought of, he’s sick of me. Like he doesn’t want me there. Like we’ve been on this vacation for 5 days now and he needs a break from me and so he’s being intentionally vague so that I can’t find him. And because I’ve worked on this issue for a long time, I kind of recognize, there was a part of me that was sort of observing this happen, that’s the mindfulness piece, when you can observe yourself kind of from a distance a little bit. And so there was part of me that was really feeling it, feeling rejected and like, oh he doesn’t want me here anymore, he’s sick of me. And then there was another part of me that was like, okay, wait a minute. Like, you know, he usually doesn’t handle that. If he needed a break, he would probably just tell you. Like, this is, so I’m noticing that I’m feeling this way. And I even, and this wouldn’t have gone this way, you know, 10 years before but, you know, I even said to myself, ugh, this feels like adoption stuff. Because anytime I have that thing of, oh people don’t wanna be around me, that’s that rejection. And so there was a part of me that kind of wondered if that’s what it was. And so I was able to take a few deep breaths and send him another text and I said, hey, like, did you mean to be vague? Because I really can’t tell where you are. And he said, oh no, like of course not. And then he sent me another picture of a building, which I think normally would have been a good landmark, but I just wasn’t aware of where this building was. And so I was still kind of like, clueless.

Haley - So I walk left or right? Just give me a direction.

Kristin - Yeah. So but I could tell that I was still really worked up. So in the past, what I would have done in that situation, because my way to handle triggers in the past was to kind of get passive aggressive. I think a lot of us can relate to that. And so for me what I would have done in the past is I would have just been, I would have text something like, oh forget it. And then I would have gone back to the house and I would have started cooking dinner for my family but with a lot of like, cupboard slamming and like, you know.

Haley - I don’t know anyone that does that. I don’t know anyone else that does that. Yeah.

Kristin - Yeah, and you know, and then probably our old pattern would have been, he would have come home and said hey, like, is everything okay. And I would have been oh yeah, it’s fine. And then I wouldn’t have spoken to him for the rest of the night. So that’s you know, 10 years ago, maybe even, 2 years ago sometimes. But you know, because I’ve been working on this, there’s a part of me that said, and in this moment I said, oh, I’m still feeling really awful. Like I just feel icky. Like I had that triggered feeling so I really felt, I still felt kind of abandoned and alone. And I didn’t think it would be good for me to join them because I thought I might stay in that dis-regulated state. And so I text him and I said, hey like, and I had told him that I was feeling kind of triggered. And I said I’m just gonna go back to the house, and I’ll see you when you get back. And so as I was walking about to the house, I was saying to myself like, this is just a moment where you’re experiencing some pain. And you know, it’s okay to feel this way. But I need to also take care of myself in a way that’s going to make me feel better. And so I was able to go back to the house and do some things that I do for self-care, you know I journaled and I do meditation and so by the time they got back and I had started cooking dinner. I wasn’t slamming cupboards anymore, and I was able to reconnect with my family. Which is kind of where that attachment system piece comes in, right, that tend and befriend. Because I showed myself kindness, and took care of my needs, I was able to be in that place of relationship. And you know, that helps to foster these relationships with my family. Whereas before I wouldn’t have been in that place of relationship and I would have behaved in a way that no one really would have wanted to be around me. I would have made my own belief come true because I, you know, they wouldn’t want to be around me when I’m slamming cupboards and I’m saying oh I’m fine.

Haley - Right, ‘cause you were like, oh they don’t even want me there. And later you act like it and then they literally don’t want you there.

Kristin - Exactly. And I think that’s how we sabotage ourselves as adoptees all the time.

Haley - Yeah, okay. Guilty.

Kristin - Right? Me too, clearly.

Haley - Okay, yep. Well I love that example. It’s a whole picture of that. Is there anything else that you just want adopted people to know about this? How it can benefit them or how they can put this into practice? How beneficial it is? Anything that you wanna say to us?

Kristin - I’d actually love to do, just kind of a really quick self-compassion exercise. Your listeners could do it at home, and you could do it. If you’re up for it.

Haley - Okay! It’s an experiment for me. I’m ready.

Kristin - You’re the guinea pig for everybody.

Haley - Yes I am. I’m okay with it.

Kristin - Okay, good. We’ll carry on. Okay Haley, I’d like you to just take a minute and close your eyes. And take a couple of slow deep breaths. And everyone at home can do the same, close your eyes and take a few slow, deep breaths. And then call to mind a time when you felt triggered. Where you felt a very painful thought, belief, or emotion come up. And notice how that feels in your body, when you’re feeling that pain. And notice any other thoughts that might bring up, without judgement, just notice them. Now, take your hands and rub them together, generate some heat between your hands. Rub them fast. And then take your hands and you can place them over your heart or over your, on your cheeks. And then, just allow that warmth to permeate into your skin. And say to yourself, this is a moment I’m hurting. And I care about this pain that I’m experiencing. I’m not alone in my pain. I’m here, and I love myself. And I’m not ever leaving. Now notice if anything has changed in your body. Has anything changed with the thoughts that you’re feeling, or the emotions that you’re having. And take one more deep long inhale and exhale. And then you can slowly blink open your eyes.

Haley - Okay. I, okay, so here’s my full disclosure. I think that’s gonna be a very powerful moment for people to work through that. And I feel like I had it halfway, ‘cause my brain is still like, in podcaster mode and thinking like, okay, what am I gonna say to her right after. So I was having like, half the experience and then half, so I’m torn. I’m gonna replay this to myself ‘cause I have the recording. And I’ll do it after. But I did notice a shift in my body, which I just thought was so funny because I wasn’t totally paying attention. So I got half the effort but I still felt the shift.

Kristin - You know, Haley, that’s an example of something that you can do for yourself in any moment. Sometimes now I’ll just place a hand over my heart, as I’m going through my day. And just kind of take a moment to say like, I care about myself. I love myself. And it definitely is a practice, it’s not something I’m great at all the time. But it’s also something that a therapist could do in a therapy session for you, something that could last a little longer. That was really brief. But I think sometimes that can be really powerful experience. But you’re right, sometimes when we’re half in and half out.

Haley - I’m pretty sure I would have cried had I been all the way in. so in case you’re waiting for tears, I think that’s why there weren’t any. But yeah, there’s just something about literally, for me, it’s saying that you love yourself is hard. That I would say I love myself. Like even though word choice I used right away, putting it in the third person, right?

Kristin - Right.

Haley - Thank you. That was very special. Anything else that you wanna leave us with?

Kristin - I think my heart goes out to all of us as adoptees. It can be really hard sometimes and we really do sit and carry so much pain. But I do take comfort in the fact that we aren’t alone, that we’re kinda in this together, you know? And so, yeah.

Haley - And I mentioned it before, but you wanna just tell us a little bit about Kris Neff’s book?

Kristin - Yes! So her book is called Self-Compassion, the Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself. And it’s a wonderful book, it’s filled with exercises that you can do, which I think are great and it kind of outlines these three steps in more detail of you know, how to be mindful. How to recognize that this is, that we all, humanity, we all experience pain. And then how to kind of treat yourself in a kind and caring way. So, it really is a great book. It’s pretty easy to read and not too technical or stuffy. So I love anything with a practical exercise and it’s just filled with those.

Haley - Same. I totally love the practical, so I often, in the Healing Series, I’m like, okay, you have to tell us something helpful, that we can do ourselves. So I love that little, I keep wanting to say meditation. It was kind of like a meditation.

Kristin - Yeah.

Haley - Yeah, that you shared with us, so thank you. Okay, how can we connect with you online, Kristin?

Kristin - I have a website, professional website. It’s tradewindscounseling.com. and then on Facebook I’m just Kristin Jones, my personal Facebook, but I love to connect with adoptees. So that’s something really great for me. And I have an Instagram that’s Adoptees Connect Salt Lake City, actually the handle is @adopteesconnectslc, and anyone’s welcome to follow that. It’s specific to our Adoptees Connect group for Salt Lake, but I post on there about adoption.

Haley - Fantastic. I love Adoptees Connect, of course.

Kristin - Yes.

Haley - Perfect, thank you so much. Thanks for sharing with us today and I’m just so grateful for you, for your wisdom in this area. I think it’ll be really helpful for a lot of us.

(upbeat music)

Haley - I wanna say a huge thank you to my monthly supporters without which I wouldn’t be able to do this podcast every single week. So thank you, thank you, thank you. If you want to join them and say, with your dollars that this show is important and you’d like it to keep going and you want it to reach other adoptees around the world and help support them and grow our community, you can go to adopteeson.com/partner to find out how you can sign up to support the show, and some of the fun bonuses that you get for signing up. There is a secret podcast feed just for you, Adoptees Off Script. And there’s another level where we have a secret Facebook group for supporters of the show, and that group is pretty awesome too. So, I’d love to have you as a supporter, thanks so much for listening. Let’s talk again, next Friday.

(exit music)

106 [Healing Series] When Adoption Is Not the Only Trauma with Janet Nordine, MS, LMFT

Transcript

Full show notes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/106

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye

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This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees, by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

(intro music)

Haley - You’re listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I’m your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience, what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today, we are talking about when adoption is not the only trauma. Let’s listen in.

(upbeat music)

Haley - I’m so pleased to welcome, to Adoptees On, Janet Nordine, welcome back, Janet!

Janet - Thank you for having me!

Haley - I’m so glad to be speaking to you again! We really enjoyed our conversations last time and today we’re gonna go back into adoption trauma, most unfun thing ever to talk about. But you know, we had been talking a while ago about how adoptees, we kind of acknowledge now that being separated from our first family is a trauma and it has a big impact on our brains and our systems. And then we’re still living life and have imperfect families that have adopted us or maybe we were in foster care or there’s all sorts of situations that can come up, you know? Abuse, assaults, all kinds of things in childhood and into adulthood. So there’s other traumas that come into our lives. So that’s kind of what we’re focusing in on today. Adoption is a trauma but then there’s also other things that kind of impact our lives. Can you talk to us a little bit about that and what trauma does to us and just especially to adoptees, what you want to say to us about that?

Janet - I sure can. I’ve been working in the field of trauma, I’m here in Las Vegas, for about the past 20 years. I’ve been a therapist for 10 years, and 10 years before that I worked at the local rape crisis center, I worked for a family resource center so I was engaged with lots of families in lots of different situations that involved trauma. And what trauma does to us, is it leaves a fingerprint on our brain Our brains are made of plastic which is the good news because that means they can heal. So our plastic brains have had these things happen to us, where the neurotransmitters in our brains are sending us all these chemicals and we’re having all these responses. And the good news about that, and I like to talk about good news in trauma because it is such a heavy topic, the good news about our brain is that it has this response. It has a fight, flight, or freeze, and sometimes even collapse response, and that’s to keep us safe. So our brain is made to keep us safe. So when we’re experiencing those moments of disassociation or we’re experiencing those moments of, we can’t figure out why we’re so angry and what’s happening, it’s our brain’s response to keep us safe. And safety is what our brain wants the most.

Haley - I like that reframing for us. The flight or freeze, say it again, fight, flight, or freeze.

Janet - Fight, flight, freeze, collapse.

Haley - Okay, it’s a tongue twister.

Janet - It is, it is.

Haley - It’s seen as such a negative thing usually, but you’re saying this is what your brain is supposed to do.

Janet - It is, and I really feel like these emotions, that’s information. What are they telling us about ourselves? How can we focus in on those and say, oh I’m having this anger response, what is this about today? And sometimes when we’re in that anger response, it’s really hard for us to have that kind of a thought. But afterwards, in the 20 minutes that we’re in recovery, we can think back , now what really was the trigger, or the thing that caused me to feel that angry? And we can really work on resolving that and looking at it in a different way.

Haley - Looking at person who was not adopted. They’ve had trauma in their life. We’ve had at the beginning a trauma, plus life trauma. What would you say would be the difference, is there one?

Janet - Well I think the difference would be is, for adoptees like you and I that were relinquished right at birth, our trauma started at that moment. Our trauma started the moment we were removed from our biological parent, our mother. And we didn’t know where we went. In my case I went for the first 7 months of my life, I have no idea where I was. Until I ended up in my family that I’ve been raised with. So for those first 7 months, I have a picture of myself that my parents took the very first day I was with them and I look frozen. And I’ve heard that from many adoptees, that they have this frozen look on their face. So that was my brain’s response to all of the things that had happened. I had frozen. So the difference I believe, and this is just my thought process as a therapist, is adoptees, their trauma starts at the very moment of birth, or even maybe before because maybe we know we’re going to not stay with our mother and there are studies about in utero trauma as well. But other people that experience trauma, maybe the trauma happened as an adult or maybe the big trauma happened in their childhood with domestic violence or abuse from their parents, and so they had maybe a year or two or more before the trauma started to kind of have this normal type of development. And then the trauma occurred so our trauma started very early, where maybe other children and adults, it happens later. So we live in that place of fight, flight, freeze, collapse from the moment we’re born.

Haley - And then some of those things happen to adopted people as well. So there’s, I mean, we’ve both heard terrible stories.

Janet - Yeah.

Haley - So we don’t need to explain those things. But what happens when it’s compounded? Trauma compounded? I don’t know, what do you call that?

Janet - Complex trauma. It becomes complex.

Haley - There you go, that’s the real term, good job. Okay.

Janet - That’s the term, yes. What happens when we have complex trauma, those responses from our brain, they become somatic, they become stuck in our cells, in our body, and we really have to find ways to heal our whole self, not just our mind. I work with the, lots of different children in foster care that are moving towards adoption. And I’ve have kids that have witnessed horrible, horrible things between their parents and I have children that have been sexually abused. And I've worked with children that have been horrible neglect. And the most interesting thing to me is that the children that have had neglect, where they’ve been left sitting as infants in a car seat, they're really struggling to just cope in life, and to make relationships and to make those connections. Because early on they didn’t have that intimacy with a parent or a caregiver, where other children may have had that. And then they witness these things. And they’re able to vocalize and verbalize some of the things that they’ve experienced, but that preverbal trauma, that developmental trauma, it’s really the most difficult part to work with and help children heal from. And I believe adults as well. You know, we’ve had that preverbal trauma so we’re trying to figure out how do we explain that? How do we talk through that? How do we work through that?

Haley - Can you tell us about the, what ACE is? And that—

Janet - It’s the, ACE stands for Adverse Child Experiences. It’s an ACE questionnaire. And it was actually thought of by a doctor by the name of Vincent Felitti and he was doing, of all things, an obesity study. And he was looking at why these people were dropping out of this obesity study. And the people that he was able to contact that had dropped out, they all had these adverse childhood experiences, these traumas in their childhood. And he started to correlate some of the food insecurities and eating difficulties of these study participants with their childhood trauma. So a lot of adoptees, myself included, have food insecurities, because they were undernourished or whatever happened to them at a young age. And he started to look at that and then he talked to another doctor by the name of Robert Anda. And he worked for the CDC and the two of them together came up with this questionnaire and it’s a list of 10 questions. And you answer them and then you have your score. And this is something that gives the person that’s taking the questionnaire information about themselves. Now if you can go online and you can find everything on the internet, and you can go online and you can take this test and you can score it. But a note of caution, some of the questions are difficult, and filling out the questionnaire can cause distress. So if you choose to go online and you choose to take this questionnaire, keep in mind that to keep yourself safe, and if you start to feel that discomfort or that anxiety just close your browser and come back to it, or work through it with a trusted therapist or a trusted friend. But some of the questions, and the one that I really wanna focus on, that’s adoption related, is number 6. And it reads, “Was a biological parent ever lost to you through divorce, abandonment, or other reasons?” and for adoptees, I think most of us would say yes, if we were removed or abandoned by our parent. Other questions, “Did an adult or person at least 5 years older than you touch or fondle you in a way that you did not want?” So that’s a sexual question, sexual abuse question. Talks about, did anyone ever hit you, did anyone ever act in a way that made you feel hurt or afraid? Your family didn’t look out for each other or you didn’t feel close or supported by each other, some of these questions are innate to adoptees because maybe we didn’t feel supported by the family that we were adopted by or maybe we did have some of those things happen to us. One of the things I was thinking about as adoptees, we’re always looking for acceptance, we want somebody to love us. And if we didn’t feel we were getting that in our adoptive family, maybe a perpetrator or another family member came along and they offered you that love and support that you were looking for. So possibly you were, and I don’t like this term, but you were easily manipulated to be abused. An easy target is the term I was thinking because you’re really seeking that. Some of these questions as an adoptee bring up a lot of feelings. And a lot of concerns.

Haley - Well I know when I was reading it, I was like, I think a lot of adoptees can say yes to these things.

Janet - Yeah.

Haley - Even if, it’s bad. Even if you weren’t in a really horrible situation, like, I think yeah. Even, “Was the household member depressed or mentally ill?” Like, those kind of things a lot of us would say one or both of our adoptive parents have, if they were infertile they might have unresolved grief from that. You know, like there’s a lot of things that I think just come with adoption for all of us. Not just the adopted person.

Janet - Yes. And that question number 6 that I shared with you earlier about being separated from a caregiver, biological parent, specifically causes some physical problems. And the specific ones are, that it listed, cardiovascular disease, lung disease, diabetes, MS, headaches, lupus. And we’re three times at risk for me than the regular person for depression. So just that question number 6 come with a whole package of prizes that you get if you have had those things, that particular thing happen to you.

Haley - Just, prizes, that’s good.

Janet - I say that with sarcasm.

Haley - I get you, I get you. Okay, so this feels, this feels also depressing. To fill out this form and be like, yep, traumatized at the start and it just keeps going. So where’s the hope in knowing this?

Janet - Well I am always a person that I believe knowledge is power. And when we know what our score is, we can do something about it. You know, there’s lots of adoptees wandering around going, oh I just don’t know what’s wrong with me, I don’t know why I feel this way. This particular question where it gives you information and then you can take that questionnaire to a trauma and adoption competent therapist and say, help me and here’s my score. And I really think that having that knowledge and that information, leads you to the next step which is getting help which leads you to the next step which is healing. And it’s possible to heal because like I said before, our brains are plastic. And we can heal some of those difficult things that have happened to us in the past.

Haley - So we’ve talked before on this show about a variety of healing modalities that therapists can use, trauma informed therapists can use. Like, EMDR, and brain spotting, and neurofeedback, those are probably the most common ones that most of us have heard of. Can you tell us about, I know that you are really trained in this because of your work with foster children. Can you tell us what makes a trauma informed practitioner, what kind of things would we be looking for, to find a therapist that has those skills? And I know it’s more than just, can you do EMDR?

Janet - Right. Right. You know, EMDR is an excellent modality for therapy, with trauma. And the thing you want to make sure that your therapist understands is they understand the neuroscience, how the brain works. Why the brain responds the way it does to trauma. And they would understand the brain chemistry, how things are put together. In my office I have a little model of a brain and it’s squishy and it comes apart and it has all the parts. And the kids love to pick it up and say, what part of my brain is making me feel this way? And I can show them and it really helps them understand, I’m not a bad kid, I just, my brain is acting just how it’s supposed to. So you wanna find a therapist that understands that part of human development and why your brain is acting the way it does. You wanna find somebody that has some tools in their tool belt. Not just the EMDR, but you wanna have, ‘cause not everyone responds to EMDR. Not everyone can manage the big emotions that sometimes comes with that. I do sand tray and sand tray is a form of therapy where you take several different characters and put them in the sand and it tells a story about really what’s going on in your subconscious. And it’s amazing to me the healing that comes from the storytelling, the narrative of the trauma. Some people are talkers. And they wanna be able to tell you the story. I do some narrative storytelling with children where we recreate the story in a book form. And sometimes we’ll change the characters to animals and sometimes we’ll change them to make the story turn out in a different way and it helps them be able to understand what’s happened to them and be able to tell their story. And I think adults need that too. We need to sit down and tell our story. I mean how many adoptees have you had on your show and they start out by telling their story and that’s a huge part of healing. Somatic experiences, being able to feel it in your body, because a lot of us are numb to those emotions, we just shut down, we’re in that freeze mode. Steven Porges in the polyvagal theory talks about collapse and actually people can die from that. Like it’s such a shock and such a trauma that their body just shuts down completely and that can occur as well. So there’s just lots of things you wanna make sure that therapist knows about. And also they need to understand that adoption is trauma.

Haley - Okay, I wanna pause you there ‘cause I really wanna hear. I know you do play therapy. And that you’re trained in it. Can adults do that?

Janet - Absolutely. I’m actually at this moment, while we’re speaking, pending my application to be a registered play therapist. I’m 6 weeks into the 8 week process, so just waiting for that to come through. I’m really excited about that. But absolutely adults can do play therapy. I’ve done sand tray with adults. I have this funny thing I do with pool noodles where we joust with them, and we hit each other with the pool noodles and we step back and we breathe. You step into that aggression and then you step out of it. And you can prove to yourself that you don’t have to stay in aggression, that you can breathe through it. I have musical instruments I play and we do matching. So you have that matched beat with another person and adults do that with their kids and adults do that with me as well. It’s lots of fun. And I build Legos all the time.

Haley - To me that seems like a more easily accessible, especially for someone who is really not super interested in going for talk therapy or you talk about brain spotting and they’re like, that’s a little woo woo.

Janet - Right.

Haley - It’s kind of like an easier step in, I don’t know.

Janet - It is and the thing that’s amazing is, in the process of that, you’re changing the wiring of your brain. You’re changing how your brain is thinking and feeling because you’re having those good chemicals released when you’re playing, you’re have these good things happen in your brain. And you’re able to also speak through and share some of the thoughts that you’re having. And a lot of adoptees, they weren’t real playful as children. I was one of those kids that was like, out of sight, out of mind. And quiet and stayed in the room with my cat. And played with the cat, and put the doll clothes on the cat. So for me to be an adult and playing with children and enjoying that, it’s just really amazing to me, because I didn’t really access that part of my life as a child.

Haley - Same. Totally same for me. I remember, it’s a little churchy reference, but I remember going to youth group and they would play all these different games, just like really crazy made up games, whatever. And I always was like, this is the lamest thing, why are we doing this. Like, we’re practically adults, this is so. But you know what I’ve even noticed, that you’re language includes this. For example, while we’re recording this, we’re going to be seeing each other very soon. And so every once in a while, you’ll say, oh I can’t wait to play. And you use it in your everyday conversation.

Janet - Absolutely. And I can’t wait to play. I may bring bubbles so we can pop them.

Haley - Well I do have two teeny boys at home, so bubbles are a regular part when it’s not winter. Going back to having this complex trauma and you know, you taught us about the ACES questionnaire, is there anything else that you think that we need to know as adopted people that is hopeful and you know, even for people that are like, I don’t even know if therapy’s right for me. Yes, I might have this complex trauma, but I feel like I’m getting by okay. They don’t necessarily want to go too deep into this yet. What do you wanna say to someone like that?

Janet - Well, you know, the musician Pink?

Haley - Yes.

Janet - I love her and I got to see her this last year and one of my very favorite lyrics from one of her songs is, “Change the voices in your head, make them like you instead.” And I think about that and I think, how many years have we all spent like thinking negative thoughts about ourselves? So if we can spend 5 minutes of our day loving kindness about ourselves. You know if we treat ourselves as if we would treat another person who maybe our best friend or somebody that we really care about, what would that be like? Self-compassion, one thing that I do when I’m feeling especially stressed, is I’ll put my hand on my heart. And I’ll think, good heart. Kind heart. And I pat it. I’m doing it right now. And it really calms me. And it gives me that good feedback about myself. Touch is a big deal. A lot of people don’t like hugs or they don’t like to be touched. But if you can find somebody that you’re safe with and you get that normal steady diet of touch, it’s really critical for your healthy development, for your healing. You can get a massage, maybe a reiki, I try to do that once a month. If you’re not a person toucher, get an animal, get a dog and touch a dog. We have one of the therapists that has a therapy dog within our office. And the therapists all love to pet the dog. We all just look for him all the time. Having good nutrition is really important, making sure you’re adding some omega 3s, some fatty acids, that’s really good for your brain. Write a story for yourself or write yourself a love letter to that little child inside of you that maybe didn’t feel accepted or loved. Write ten reasons I love you to yourself, that little child. There’s lots of things you can do to be creative and maybe draw pictures of something that reminds you of joy that you felt in your life, a sunset at a beach or something. Be artistic. Other things you can do is some mindfulness. Bringing those good thoughts into your mind. Doing that every day. Focus on your breath. Sometimes in session when I’m hearing an especially hard story, I have ten toes and I can squeeze 10 toes, 10 times as I’m in my shoes. Nobody sees me do it. But it helps me stay grounded and focused and that's something you can as well when you’re starting to feel that stress. Get release in your body. I just love, we can have loving kindness towards ourselves not just other people. And I think that’s a huge part of our own healing.

Haley - I have said to multiple friends when they’re talking down about themselves. Like, hey, don’t say that to my best friend.

Janet - Right, I love that you do that. That’s awesome.

Haley - It kind of shocks people into being like, oh wait.

Janet - Don’t be mean to my friend like that.

Haley - Yeah, exactly. We need that reminder to ourselves. I have the critic. I understand.

Janet - That inner critic that we all need to remind that critic that we love the critic as well, not just get away. Embrace it, validate it. I get why you’re there. How can I be your friend?

Haley - Okay. Okay. That is a different twist on it to for me.

Janet - Tell your brain to quit being so judgy about yourself.

Haley - Yeah, you know, and this kind of takes us back to what you were telling us at the very start. That the reactions that our brain are having, it’s like, it’s out of protection, and it’s supposed to be doing those things. So how do you train it to not feel scared?

Janet - It’s kind of like when you’re on a diet. And you’re on McDonald’s 20 days in a row. And then you decide to go on a diet and you’re not gonna drive to McDonald’s anymore. And your car still thinks, oh I need to drive to McDonald’s and you have to really steer it somewhere else. It’s just like that.

Haley - Yeah, the ruts are deep, right?

Janet - They are, yes. For sure.

Haley - Oh thanks Janet. Is there anything else that you wanna tell us, teach us, or anything before we close out?

Janet - Well I think something that’s really important that we need to know is that we are resilient. Wave been hurt in relationships and the way that we heal is in relationships. This show is building relationships between you and million, I don’t know, a lot of adoptees.

Haley - It’s not millions, it is not millions.

Janet - Not there yet.

Haley - No.

Janet - Someday millions. But just think about the impact this show has on one person who talks to another person as the ripples in the sea. But we are resilient people. Our brain is made to heal, it’s plastic. You know, I am not perfect at this, I have days when I fall apart. I have days when I want everyone to get out of the pool of my life and leave me alone. And then I have to like, kinda repair and repent and make up for that day that I had and it takes time and it’s difficult. But as I said, if we have been damaged or hurt in relationships, we can heal in relationships, and that doesn’t mean reunion. It means relationships with other people.

Haley - Wonderful, thank you. Where we can we connect with you online?

Janet - Well I have a blog. It’s ExperienceCourage.com and my email is experiencecourage@gmail.com.

Haley - Alright, thank you so much Janet.

Janet - You’re welcome.

Haley - It was just a pleasure to talk with you as always.

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Haley - Did you know I have a monthly newsletter? I mean, it’s almost monthly, but like, sometimes I have nothing to write about, so I don’t send any. So that’s fine. I don’t fill up your inbox. It’s just when I, the feeling, the mood, when the mood strikes, I will often write an essay about something that’s happening in my life or something that I’m noticing that’s happening in the adoption community. And I will write a little something and send it out. Nothing spammy I promise. Sometimes I let you know if there’s like, a listener meetup happening or something where we can connect in person, a conference, things like that. So if you wanna stay connected and know what’s happening with the podcast, AdopteesOn.com/newsletter is where you can subscribe and stay connected with us. And of course we’re on all the social medias at Adoptees On. Thanks so much for listening. Let’s talk again next Friday.

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104 [Healing Series] The PACT Method with Dr. Julie Lopez

Transcript

Full show notes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/104

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye

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This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees, by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

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Haley - You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I’m your host Haley Radke. And this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience, what it feels like to be an adoptee. Last week, Dr. Julie Lopez was on the podcast, teaching us all about implicit memory and today we are going to add on to that, while Dr. Julie teaches us about the PACT method. And she’s gonna tell us what that means. Let’s listen in.

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Haley - I am so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Dr. Julie Lopez. Welcome!

Julie - Thank you so much for having me.

Haley - I'm really excited to talk to you again, because last time you taught us about implicit memory and you really dived deep into your book as to why this is so important for us to access. And one of the ways we can do that, I really want you to teach us. And so you call it, Finding Your Unknown PACTS, a Four Part Methodology in your book.

Julie - Yes.

Haley - So can you explain a little bit, just catch us up to speed on what implicit memory is and why it’s hard to access. And then why this tool works and we’ll kinda go into what it is.

Julie - Okay. So implicit memory is part of your unconscious. So by definition, it is inaccessible to you. But we have these codes that are written into our system that tell us basically how to operate in the world. And they can be codes that say urban areas are safe or they could be codes that say no, areas in the country are safe. And it’s not told to us in words, it’s just a sensation that we get through experiences or what we’re exposed to. That’s a very basic explanation because it wasn’t learned academically, just rather through life, it can then impact how we behave. So someone who, I’m just gonna go with that analogy right now, grew up in the country might feel very unsafe in the city. Thinking, oh my gosh, I’m gonna get robbed, or there’s gonna be gunshots, or it’s really something like that. And they might be thinking some of that but their body also might be responding in the way that they walk, in the way that they feel. The person in the city might feel much more comfortable with people around and they’re out in the country and they feel scared. And they're worried that an ax murderer is gonna come out of the dark stillness that they feel and that is unfamiliar. That’s a very light metaphor for what I’m talking about here with implicit memory. Because some has to do with intimacy, some has to do with survival, but the important part is that it impacts what happens biologically in our body. Because if we feel afraid, if we feel vulnerable, if we feel angry, we are going to experience changes in our heart rate, in our nervous system, in our level of adrenaline or cortisol. We are going to experience significant changes in our felt sense of an experience. And those show themselves like, struggles with anxiety or feelings of depression, behavioral changes. And so implicit memory becomes this very important place where we can start to do work with the way that neuropsychology and these body based practices are evolving to really substantively change these hidden codes that are in our brain.

Haley - And so tell us what PACT is and how that works.

Julie - Okay, right. So this is one of the chapters in my book and this is actually a workshop. This comes from a workshop that I do with bigger groups. But it can definitely be done in a pair. You need another person to do it when you come to the fourth step. But I’ll lead you through it chronologically. So PACT, P-A-C-T, stands for this 4 part methodology that can be used to find what is stored in your implicit memory. So this is the first step. Any empowerment movement, and my book by the way is called Live Empowered, begins with making things invisible, visible. We’re impacted by the subtleties of sexism or racism. In order to become empowered, you have to start to see those as the first step to then being able to change them. So you’re in a much more empowered place if you understand the way implicit memory works and you’ve actually identified what might be stored there with the help of another person. And that person, I wanna just throw out something right here. A lot of times people think, oh gosh, she’s a therapist, so she probably means the other person is a therapist. That other person does not have to be a therapist. So let me lead you through it. So step one is the P in PACT, stands for pain point. So you start out, usually when I’m doing this in a workshop form is I have a piece of paper for them, usually a piece of card stock and I ask them on the front of the card stock to write something that is frustrating to them in their life. You can do this with many somethings, but for the purpose of the workshop, I say, just pick one. And so usually it’s a mysterious thing, where through all logical knowledge, the person should be able to implement something, do something, participate in something, but yet they can’t. They don’t follow through, they don’t do what they know is within their power, and so it makes no sense. It becomes a pain point. Like, you know, I really want to get this raise at work. And my supervisor has said, I need to engage more in meetings, I need to show up more for the conferences, and I need to present all the knowledge that I have. Because I don’t do that, I shrink away from that. I don’t know why I do it. I have taken classes, I’ve got a personal development coach, and I have invested in Toastmasters and other things that are gonna make me feel more comfortable speaking up. But yet, I still don’t do it. I've got the knowledge, I’ve got the power, I’ve got the ability, but when it comes right down to it, there’s an invisible thing that’s getting in my way. I’m just giving an example. Because the pain point is meant to be something that to you seems mysterious.

Haley - Can you tell us, before you keep going, can you tell us the pinprick story?

Julie - Yes, okay. So this is actually a story of the earliest researchers and scientists who were looking at memory and the brain. And this is a story of Edouard Claparede who was a French neurologist, back over 100 years ago. Who was working at a hospital and was specifically studying patients who had serious brain injuries. And he was working with a woman who had significant amnesia. And every day he would go in to visit her. And he would say hello, extend his hand in greeting, and she would greet him as if it was the first time she’d ever met him. He would ask her questions and she had zero memory of him from day to day. She could not have any memory that lasted beyond the moment that they were in. So one day, in the spirit of experimentation and trying to understand these different biological parts of the brain, he put a pin in his hand, with the pointed part sticking out. And when she stood up from her chair to greet him, he put his hand out and pricked her with the pin. Well, she recoiled in pain and wouldn’t talk to him anymore that day. So the next day he went in to see her again she wouldn’t shake his hand. He asked her if she remembered him, she said no. She confirmed that to her, he was a stranger. And he asked why she wouldn’t shake his hand. And she had no idea. She couldn’t answer that question because she had significant amnesia. But a part of her body could remember the sensation of pain. And would not allow her to shake his hand. And these were the early tests and experiments that started to prove that implicit memory existed. And so this is a study that actually illustrates the existence of implicit memory. Not in her explicit brain, but her body stored the memory that this was unsafe for her.

Haley - And I love that story because it’s just like, so obvious, right? It’s so obvious that there’s something else working behind the scenes, and so the first point, the pain example, something that is frustrating you and you just like, can’t get past it. I think we can all sort of think of those things for ourselves. So that step feels like, like that feels doable. Okay, what’s the next one?

Julie - And I’ll tell you something that’s interesting and why there has to be another trusted person involved. If you think about a concept of implicit memory and you’re starting to be like oh, I wonder if this is related to me or I wonder if this is, we’re all really good at identifying what’s in our friend’s implicit memory. It’s much harder to identify what’s in our own, right? Because it’s stored in our unconscious. So being a detective for someone else and saying hey, I bet you have relationship issues, or hey, it seems like you’re afraid of visibility. And they’re like, I’m not afraid of visibility, I think visibility’s fine. Well then why aren’t you speaking up in the meeting? I don’t know, that’s weird. I’m very puzzled by it. And that’s the kind of quality it would have it we’re identifying a pain point. It’s like, makes no logical sense to you. Yeah, so that’s step one. So next step 2 in the PACT methodology, has to do with associations. So I ask people just to free associate on the backside of that same paper. Any type of feelings, experiences, associations with that pain point. And it can be concrete, I make it very permissive and open. So it could be if we’re following along with the example of the person who has trouble with visibility in meetings or in speaking or engaging professionally, then maybe he might be writing down, it’s so frustrating, I get so angry. You know, I’ll psych myself up before a meeting but then it feels like my throat closes up. So that’s a really good one, so it’s like, there’s a physical sensation. I get really mad at myself, I feel really confused. When I try to visualize, actually speaking in front of people, I get these really weird images of people laughing at me or making fun of me and I know it’s in my head, but I do associate it with sharing my knowledge or being really out there with stuff. So it’s just a free association and I encourage them to think about anything and to let their mind wander. And especially to write down things that seem illogical or unrelated. So I give them some time to do that. It really is, so this association step is to try to start stretching that implicit memory muscle. Often times the things stored in implicit memory don’t make sense to the person, to us, because it’s in our own conscious.

Haley - So what do you do with all that big list of all the things that they think of?

Julie - So when I’m doing, so I tailor this workshop depending on how much time we have. If I have a lot of time, I’ll actually be walking around to try to help people because depending on how open or how much personal work they’ve done, some people may just start writing, writing, writing and other people may say, I don’t know, it sucks. Right? That’s the end of their association with that experience. And so I’ll walk around and try to help them think outside the box. Because what data in the implicit memory looks like, it kind of, it’s in your peripheral vision, it’s stuff that you have to really quiet down or be really open to seeing. So it’s like a little flash over in the far left side of your vision and so being able to see that is a part of the challenge of this particular step. And so I let people be where they are, but most of the time I’m trying to coax them into being more open to the illogical things, to not having it be so controlled and structured. That if there’s something illogical that seems related, like I just said oh someone might say I see people laughing at me. And they might not put that down right away, because it doesn’t seem like it’s logical. But yet it’s a part of their association with that experience. So for right now, it’s just something for them to reflect on and again, start to be in that more open space because it takes that kind of openness to even be receptive to what comes next.

Haley - Okay, step three, categorization. What’s that?

Julie - Okay, so there we start to give structure, right? The first step was just to identify what they’re invested in and struggling with, the second one is ideally as open as possible to start to stretch this peripheral vision for people. And then step 3, I actually give them a table a chart, which is also in the book in appendix B. But it gives them different areas so they can start to take their associations and put them in these categories that are more consistent with the way things are coated in implicit memory. So it’s feeling, it’s sight, it’s sound, it’s sensation, it’s again, like these illogical associations. And to be honest, most people like that step a lot. They’re like wow, I felt kinda stuck in the one before. Depends again on how much personal work they’ve done and then here’s like a directive that has little boxes that they can put things in. And sometimes what happens is, there’s stuff from the associations that don’t, that none of them, that one of the boxes doesn’t have any material and they’re like, oh, I didn’t think about color, I didn’t think about the visuals, but what I actually, what I see is myself falling into a hole or something like that, right? Something that they may have been aware of but didn’t feel invited to write until they see the categories. And so it helps to lay it out, it’s like, it’s like being a detective, right? You know there’s a murder mystery you have to solve. And at first you just go out and start gathering all this information. And it’s like gather, gather, gather, and you don’t know which parts are gonna help and which parts aren’t and maybe some of the things that seem unimportant end up being like a critical part of the investigation. And then you lay it out and you see it on these crime shows where they’re starting to then gather things and regroup them to look at it from a different lens and that’s what step 3 is about when we’re putting things into categories.

Haley - So you got your chart and you got all your boxes filled out and you’re starting to see, maybe see a pattern? What’s next, what’s step 4?

Julie - Well then you bring in your assistant. So step 4 is about trust. So you’re bringing in someone that you trust. Because someone that you trust that’s outside of your human system of all this complexity, is actually the detective. You’ve really been the assistant detective. Because with their outside perspective, they’re going to be better able to see what’s in your implicit memory than you are yourself. And so what I tell people in the workshops, is that I want the person who’s playing that detective, to be in the posture of curiosity. And to look at that chart and to hear the pain point and to then share the conclusions that they might have about the common thread that’s underneath all the of the data that they’re seeing. And I ask the person who’s sharing their chart, to put themselves into the posture of a humble student. And this is to have maximum receptivity to what they’re gonna hear. Because the same way the pain point is so confusing and illogical, like the story of the woman with amnesia, where she said, I don’t know why. Like that doesn’t even make sense, but I’m not gonna shake your hand, I’m not going to, I don’t want to. There’s something inside of me that’s saying no, right? And so I ask people to stretch themselves as best they can to be open and to be writing down the information that they get from their detective friend, from their curious, trusted, investigator. So that they can start, because that’s what it’s gonna feel like when you start to get the data from your implicit memory. Going back to that story, with Dr. Claparede, that amnesia patient, doing this type of exercise, you know the trusted person might be saying, you know, when I look at all of your associations, it seems like somewhere in your body is associating pain with this handshake. And she’d say, I don’t know that, it doesn’t make a lot of sense, I’ve never met the guy before, it’s really weird, right? But if she can write it down in this humble way, it might bear a lot of fruit in terms of thinking of what needs to be recoded. If it has now extended to all doctors, that she won't greet and won't talk to. And it's getting in the way of her treatment now, because this is the path she goes down. And here she is, in this vessel with these codes, and it’s become a little bit more explicit. So she can say, huh, I do have this constant thing. My friend in this workshop said maybe you’re associating pain with this handshake, is there a way around it? How do you wanna work with it? And that whole process starts to move us into more of an empowered arena.

Haley - You know, last time you were on this show and you taught us about implicit memory ,which you oughta go back and listen to that episode if you haven’t heard it yet, you were talking about different ways we can go in and access and recode. And I love that you have on this chart sight, sound, taste, and all of those senses. Like, is that a way that you can use then, say you’re gonna go in and say you’re gonna do EMDR, you can bring this into your therapist and say, ok. My friend and I found this weird pattern I’m having and here are some of the things.

Julie - Totally.

Haley - And it’s like, a road map.

Julie - Yes, totally. Exactly. And to be honest, because a lot of these more advanced approaches to changing what’s coded in implicit memory are actually nonverbal, having the context of what the code might be and why that’s related to goals, it just jumpstarts the whole process. And can really help to shorten the length of time in treatment.

Haley - Well I’ve done EMDR with my psychologist before and some of the questions that she asked me where like, do you smell anything? Or do you, you know when you’re talking about a specific memory and event and so this would already have those things. So I love that, it’s a short cut, it’s perfect. Hey, wonderful. Is there anything else that you wanna tell us about the PACT method or what we could do with it, that you feel is really important for us to know?

Julie - Yeah, so I think again it just speaks to being empowered. If we’re really in that position of being a humble student, then it gives texture and dimension to our relationships with our self and with other people. And yes, there are all these different approaches that are outlined in my book as well around how and what choices you can make to change the codes in your implicit memory. But I think it’s very powerful just to have the knowledge of what might be there. It’s taking something invisible and making it more visible. And that’s a key component to change so even that fact, I would say, can be very profound in someone’s life in terms of then reconditioning that reality. So yes, you can go in with one of these methods and shortcut the process. But I think just having the knowledge can make you a better friend, a better partner, a better professional, a better student of this journey around self-awareness. So I think there’s a power in that, in and of itself, right? Continuously saying, that’s not my problem or I didn't do that, or I don’t even know why, is a difficult position to be in when the actual struggle may be originating from within ourselves. And I think that empowered position puts us in a much better place to make the kind of changes that we want or to live the life that we wanna live.

Haley - Absolutely. I love that. So your book is called Live Empowered!: Rewire your Brain’s Implicit Memory to Thrive in Business, Love and Life. Where can we find it and where can we connect with you online?

Julie - Absolutely. So I’m on all the social media, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, although reluctantly, I have to say.

Haley - Instagram is so fun! You’re gonna love it!

Julie - I know! I’m just new to it, I’m learning. But it’s all @DrJulieLopez and that’s my website also, drjulielopez.com. the book is available on Amazon, we’ve got a Kindle edition and paperback and I hope to really spread the word about this important part of the way our human system works, so people don’t feel broken or like there’s no way out of these patterns that seem to make no sense whatsoever.

Haley - I think your book does a wonderful job of unpacking that for us. And giving like super clear ideas of what we can do next. So thank you, thank you so much and thank you specifically for, I said this the last time we recorded, but you really include so much about adoptees that is accessible to the general public as well. And so it’s almost like a learning tool for other people to understand the adopted experience also so that’s amazing, thank you so much.

Thank you and I’m really proud of that. I hope that this helps to also in a sneaky way, spread more awareness to people who think their lives haven’t been touched by adoption.

Haley - So good, thanks Julie.

Julie - Thank you.

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Haley - I’m really excited because I am going to get to meet Dr Julie when I’m in Washington D.C. in a couple of weeks. I’m presenting at the American Adoption Congress Conference. And you can find details of that, I’ll have the registration info linked in the show notes. And if you’re coming please let me know so I can say hi to you in person, we’re gonna have a listener meetup. So you can check the Facebook page for Adoptees On for details of the time and where and when and all that. So I’d love to connect with you and I’m bringing along my Adoptees On stickers so, make sure you come and grab a sticker from me. As always a big thank you to my Patreon supporters. If you just need more Adoptees On chat, there is actually a brand new Adoptees Off Script podcast that is just for monthly supporters. This show, Adoptees On, that you’re listening to right now, is always going to be free for adoptees, I always want Adoptees to have free support available. Especially with the Healing Series, it’s just so critical to me and I just believe in it so much. So this show wouldn’t be possible without monthly supporters. So as a gift to thank you for monthly support, Adoptees Off Script is available to monthly supporters and you can find out more details, AdopteesOn.com/partner. And right now, there’s quite a few episodes up with some familiar voices to you and we are talking, Adoptees Off Script is talking about things that we wouldn’t necessarily share on this show because there’s so many listeners but with a smaller, more intimate audience over on Patreon, you bet. We go there. So I’d love to have you as a monthly supporter and say thank you with that Adoptees Off Script podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Let’s talk again next Friday.

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