16 [Healing Series] Why Me?

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/16

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radkey, and this is a special episode in our healing series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Make sure you stick around until the end of the show for some details about next week's episode and info about our current giveaway. Okay, it's time to get started. Today, we address the question, "Why me?" Let's listen in.

This is Pamela Cordano, a fellow adoptee and a psychotherapist who specializes in helping you to discover meaning in your life.

Welcome, Pamela.

Pamela Cordano: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Please, would you just give us a quick bio so we can get to know you a little better?

Pamela Cordano: Sure. It's hard to start with my bio any later than day one, which was when I was separated from my biological mother. My mother had mental illness. And so she was 18 when she had me, back in 1965, and I was… For six months, I was in three foster care homes and then finally adopted by a couple who were infertile, and I was their only child.

So, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area with my adoptive parents, and I think because I felt so disconnected from myself and life in general… I've just been a sort of a seeker my whole life, trying to put pieces together and make sense out of life and things didn't make sense. My first profession was teaching English as a second language to international students, and I realized later that I was kind of being a bridge for them.

“You came from this one world and now you're trying to adjust and adapt to a new world.” And that was something that I think I wish I had had when I was an infant. Somebody to escort me across a threshold of, "This is your new world and let me help you make sense of it."

So I did that for 11 years and then I realized I wanted to go deeper. So I went into psychology and I work a lot with people who have had devastating circumstances. They've had cancer or they've become paralyzed or they've lost somebody precious to them. And it's a place where I feel like because I'm adopted and my history of feeling so disoriented and disconnected, that I can really show up.

I see people who are very lost and distressed and have lost a sense of what is meaningful to them. I think that who I am and how I work–it all goes back to my history of being adopted and growing up in a family that didn't make sense to me.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. So, I recently saw a thread in one of the adoptee groups I'm a part of where the adoptee was relinquished, and she was the middle child of four other kept children.

And I was thinking of May Anna King. I don't know if you heard her interview. She was a guest in season one, episode seven. She was adopted at a bit of a later age, but some of her younger siblings were relinquished at birth. And then I was thinking about just any adult adoptee who's reflecting on why we were available for adoption in the first place.

And the question that we all keep coming back to is, "Why me?" We can fixate on that and it brings up a lot of ugly things for me, personally. Pam, help us move forward. Why us?

Pamela Cordano: Boy, that's a really painful question, and it's one that I feel very familiar with myself and I think there's a child version of that question that we grow up with and we live with at some level, whether we're aware of it or not. That we're different from other people, and that something got broken for us, and “Why us?”, and “Why not other people?”

So something that, you know, that people may realize or not is that children are just naturally self-centered, not in a bad way, but in a normal way. Whatever goes on, a kid thinks it has to do with them. So if parents get divorced or if a parent dies, if parents are fighting or the house burns down, kids just think it has something to do with them, personally.

They don't know that it doesn't; they don't have that abstract thinking and that complexity of abstract thought. So, when adults try to explain to a kid why they're adopted, like oh, you know, I was told that my parents really didn't know, but, "Oh, your mother just, she was too young. She couldn't really take care of you."

As a child, to me, that makes no sense. All I know, I just feel the wound in my body at some level. I just feel the pain of it. It doesn't make any sense. And anyway, the same thing happens when parents get divorced parents say to the kids, "It''s not your fault. Mommy and daddy just blah, blah, blah…"

But kids always feel like it's their fault. And that's what I see coming into my office is people who have been carrying this burden of feeling like there's something inherently flawed about them, that this happened to them. And it's so powerful and we grow up with it for so many years, day in and day out, as we compare ourselves to what we see on TV, or in the movies, or with friends who have their biological families intact, that it makes a huge mark on us.

And it's a huge thing to try to really hold differently in the self as we get older and we are capable of that more complicated thinking. I guess that that's the first part, is just that it's natural and it's painful, and when adults try to talk to kids as if kids can think in a complex way, it just doesn't really connect.

It's a place where kids go underground, because where do you–-what are we supposed to do with that? We feel like it has something to do with us and our inherent flaws, but people are saying it doesn't. So what do we do with that gap?

Haley Radke: I'm nodding and I'm realizing, yes, no one can hear me nodding!

Yes. It totally makes sense. And that's one of the reasons why so many of us struggle with shame, right? “We are the problem.”

Pamela Cordano: Exactly. “We are flawed.” Yeah. “We are flawed.” I know that for me, and I think that probably many adoptees listening, my shame about being adopted and relinquished is so deep from that child place, that I really–I've met adoptees who think that it's a specific thing about them.

Like I thought, "Oh, it's because I feel ugly. I must be ugly. I was thrown away because I was ugly." Some people think it's because they're stupid. "I was thrown away because I was stupid." And people, kids will make up stories about what is inherently wrong with them, that they were discardable, whereas other people were kept.

Haley Radke: Oh, for me, my adoptive parents told me that I was really colicky as a baby. And I thought, "Oh my goodness. Maybe that could be a reason why. If I never stopped crying–why would you want a baby like that?" I mean, as a kid, you don't really get that. "Of course, all babies cry and they need things and…

Pamela Cordano: And most colicky babies are kept. Parents deal with it and they keep the baby.

Haley Radke: That's right. Yeah. Okay, so as a child, we can't understand this complex thing. So what do we do with that as an adult?

Pamela Cordano: Well, we have to grow an adult part of our own selves. Over the years I've worked really hard to have some kind of coherent adult part of me that can talk to the younger part of me that doesn't get it, because there is still a part of me that just doesn't get it.

And there's the angry part of me that doesn't want to get it. Like, "Why should I have to get this? It's too hard." But the adult part of me can say to myself with conviction, and with authority, that, “My parents did not have the capacity to keep me.” They just didn't. My mother was mentally ill, my father was doing his own thing at 19 or whatever he was.

And there were not relatives in the picture, to step in. There's the system that is, which supports adoption, and if I really– My adult part can really see the infrastructure was really weak. It was not set up to keep a baby. And so I have some ability inside to soothe myself to say, to be– From my adult inside, to be with the part of me that just is sad and suffering and doesn't get it, and doesn't know how to make sense of it. It just doesn't make any sense.

Haley Radke: I guess the thing that's coming to mind is…so, we have to reconcile that. We can't go in the past. We can't change it. We have to move forward.

Maybe this, I mean, for me, personally, I'm thinking these feelings are what stirred up a passion in me to make a change for future… Hopefully, there won't be so many future adoptees that are having these struggles that we've experienced. Is that part of healing, is working for change?

What can we actually do to reconcile that? Is this something that we need to be talking with someone like you about? Going to see a therapist, and it sounds like it's a lot of deep work that's needed.

Pamela Cordano: Yeah. One thing that I–one of the best things I've ever heard about parenting (and I'm a parent myself), is that it's not things going wrong that cause the deepest wounds in our children.

It's the things that happen that are not addressed and repaired. The thing about being adopted, where we don't have a culture that's holding us. Our culture tells us that it's not– that we're lucky, and we should be grateful, and we don't remember anything because we were babies or whatever the culture tells us. There's no one there holding a space for us to repair the pain and the rupture we've been through with this whole thing.

So it's hard to heal without the hurt part of us getting addressed directly. So for me, yes, it's been going to see good quality therapists, but it's also… When I listen to your podcasts, I always cry, and I'm not a big crier, actually. I'm more of a shutdown person with my grief in that way? Even though I'm a therapist, and people cry around with me all the time.

But there's something about hearing the resonance of people speaking to something that I understand deep in my bones (I keep saying in my bones because it's such a physical thing to be carrying grief like this), where I don't feel alone. And so it's part of the repair, I think, is in connecting with other adoptees and people who, from the inside, understand this experience, so we don't feel alone.

But I do think that the hurt part of us needs direct care. And at first that might come from a sympathetic adult, or a wise friend, or a therapist. But eventually, I think it's helpful if it comes from ourselves, because we're with ourselves all the time and we can't always be with somebody who's gonna get it.

So the more we can really get it, we can have a dialogue inside and try to talk ourselves down.

Haley Radke: Next steps for us: we're not in therapy and we're just dealing with the feelings. What do we do? Set aside half an hour and just think about it?

Pamela Cordano: I remember being in my twenties. I'm 51 now. I remember being in my twenties and I used to work across the San Francisco Bay. So I would drive across the bridge every day and I would– and of course, I was learning psychology, but I would practice talking to my, the baby of me out loud in the car by myself. So I'd be in traffic and I would just be growing and practicing like a new muscle, this adult voice.

And I would just say things to myself that no one had ever said to me, like, "Pam, you didn't deserve this. This wasn't about you. Of course you're sad. Of course you're mad. Of course you're confused. Things are hard; things feel hard for you that don't seem hard to other people. You feel alone with this. I'm here. "

It's like dividing myself into an older part in a younger part, and having someone with me. And this isn't just for adoption, I met a woman with ALS. She was diagnosed and she was given two years to live and on the same day that she was diagnosed, her boyfriend proposed marriage to her.

And she was really scared because she thought, "How could he possibly love me? I'm gonna become disfigured, and I'm gonna be drooling, and I'm gonna be unintelligible with my speech." And she had to grow this part of her, this big part of her to say, "Mariah, you are lovable. This is so scary. It doesn't–he loves you. Even if your face gets contorted and you drool and whatever else, it…." And some part of her had to hold her goodness and her worth to even marry him. And she did. And she's still alive and they're still married. But she said that without cultivating that inner adult, she couldn't have done it. And I feel that way about myself. If I didn't have that person having my– if I didn't have my own back, how…? Life would be so much harder. I have to have my own back.

Haley Radke: I love that exercise. That is something all of us can do. I think that would be really helpful. Any other thoughts?

Pamela Cordano: Yes, there's another thought, which is, there's maybe what I would call the spiritual side of this, which is, “Why do bad things happen to good people and whatever the bad thing is?” I think what happened to me with my adoption was a terribly traumatic thing that affects every part of me. So, "Why me?"

I don't know, "Why me?," and I don't know that I'll ever know, but I do have the sense that…I do love the work I do. I love meeting people when they're in a terrible crisis. And I love showing up for people when they're at the end of their rope. They can't bear it anymore and it means a lot to me to do that.

So I wouldn't have any interest in doing that if it hadn't been for my history. And it– there's a way I connect with others in my life that feels really nourishing and meaningful at the end of the day, when I'm on my deathbed, I'm gonna look back and be really glad for some of the things I've been able to give to other people because of the pain I've gone through.

So that's sort of a higher level of–it's not, “Why me?,” but it's how this pain informs us, if we can work at using it. I think I mentioned to you in a different conversation that Nelson Mandela– Okay, he was in prison for 27 years. It was unfair and he found a way to work with the pain and the injustice of that and whatever else he'd gone through as a child to come out and to give to the world in important ways. I think that all of us have in some ways the potential for superpowers because of this– because of what happened to us. Like the, "Why me?" can turn into cultivating superpowers of empathy, and strength, and resilience, and compassion.

Haley Radke: I'm tearing up because I'm like, "Yes, yes, yes. We are resilient and can do awesome things because of the hurts that we've experienced."

Thank you. That's a wonderful thought to end on. Pam, where can we connect with you online?

Pamela Cordano: I have a website, which is pamelacordanomft.com. MFT stands for marriage and family therapist in California.

Haley Radke: Excellent. Thank you so much for your wisdom and sharing that with us today.

Pamela Cordano: Thank you. My pleasure.

Haley Radke: Wasn't that amazing? I still have tears in my eyes from some of the profound things that Pam shared with us. Can I challenge you to listen to this again, maybe one or two more times? Listen for anything that Pam said that really rings true for you, and actually commit to spending some time to work on those things.

If we're gonna heal together, it's gonna take some work. I promise, I am doing that work alongside of you. If you're a part of our secret Facebook group, come and let me know what you're working on. I'll share what I'm working on there, too. What's the secret group all about? It's for partners of the show to have a safe place, and it's a secret group, so no one but myself and the other members will see you're a part of it.

Our members include many of the guests we've had share their stories with us. It's a small, intimate group, so your voice will not get lost in hundreds of comments. Adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. If you have any questions about being a partner, send me a note on the website, adopteeson.com. Don't forget to enter the giveaway I mentioned last week for that trio of books.

I think there's still a couple of entries left, so go to adopteeson.com/survey and help me get to know you a bit better and then you can enter to win three of our recommended resources. You Don't Look Adopted by Anne Heffron, Bastards by Mary Anna King, and A Series of Extreme Decisions: An Adoptee's Story by Liz Story.

Next Friday, you'll get to hear my interview with John. If you've ever had a hard time relating to your adoptive parents, you don't want to miss this episode. We talk about some really challenging feelings and John doesn't hold anything back. Make sure you're subscribed in iTunes, Google Play, wherever you listen to podcasts, or even on YouTube.

Last thing, would you tell just one friend about this episode? Maybe they could be that trusted adult in your life that Pam was telling us about. Don't keep this to yourself. We really need each other to move forward in healing together. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

15 Kelley - A Social Media Search

Transcript

Full shownotes:https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/15

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season Two, episode 1, Kelley. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and I am so happy to be back with you for season two. I have several exciting announcements for you today. So let's start with the first one. We are going to get to talk every single Friday.

I have a new series called Adoptees On Healing, where I chat with different adoptee therapists and they give us practical tips and strategies to work on different aspects of healing in our lives. And I have learned so much already from recording just a couple of these. So make sure you subscribe to the show, and next Friday you can expect an Adoptees On Healing episode in your podcast feed because we will be alternating back and forth, one with an interview with an adoptee and then to the healing episodes.

Also, we are starting a secret Facebook group for partners of the show, and I will tell you how you can access that after our interview with Kelley. Kelley is a fellow adoptee whose picture you may have seen pop up in your own Facebook feed. We talk about what a public social media search looks like and the toll it can take on your relationships.

And today we have a giveaway in our Recommended Resources segment which is a little bit unconventional. So you can listen for that later in the show. As always, links to everything we're going to talk about today are on our website, adopteeson.com.

Okay, that's enough with the chit chat. Let's listen in.

I am pleased to welcome as our first guest of season two, Kelley Baumgartner. Welcome to Adoptees On, Kelley.

Kelley Baumgartner: Thank you for having me.

Haley Radke:I just want to dive right in. Why don't you share your story with us?

Kelley Baumgartner: Okay. Well, I am 29 years old and I live in Jacksonville, Florida, and I met my birth mother two years ago. And I'm just trying to find the way through it right now. I did a social media poster on Facebook and it went viral with over 200,000 shares within 15 days.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh.

Kelley Baumgartner: Yeah. It was a whirlwind.

Haley Radke: Two hundred thousand.

Kelley Baumgartner: Over 200,000 shares. My search lasted only 44 days. The poster is still circulating and I still get emails to this day about it.

Haley Radke: I'm kind of in shock. I didn't realize it was, like, that viral.

Kelley Baumgartner: Yeah, I wasn't expecting it whatsoever, to be honest. My mom and I, when we did the poster, we just thought it would just be family and friends. We're kind of scattered through Ohio and Indiana, a few in Colorado, one in Hawaii, and we really just thought that was going to be it. We didn't go in with a lot of high hopes.

Haley Radke: What do you think made it go viral? I've seen lots of these posts before.

Kelley Baumgartner: I couldn't tell you. I've seen them a lot too. I even share them myself. Never in a million years have I ever thought. Yahoo Parenting reached out to me. Associated Press. There was one journalist, Danielle, she was amazing. She was the first person to write my story, and her story got picked up by the Associated Press and everyone else.

We were invited onto the Steve Harvey Show, which we eventually declined to do just for personal reasons. But just the way that [Danielle] wrote the story, I give her a lot of credit because she really took the time and captured everything that needed to be said to this woman that I didn't know at the time. And from there it kind of just took off.

Haley Radke: So what did your poster say?

Kelley Baumgartner: It says my name is Kelley and I was born in Goshen/Elkhart, Indiana, in 1987. I gave a lot of information but I did keep two secrets back. When we're adopted, we're only given that one sheet of paper, and I have held onto that my entire life.

And I looked at it every single year as if something else was going to change on it. And so I wrote, you know, the information that I had about her: She was a hairdresser and she was in her early twenties and she lived in Goshen. I was relinquished at birth. I didn't let anybody know that I had extra information regarding my adoption that I wasn't going to share publicly, and that kind of weeded out the good and the bad.

Haley Radke: What were some of the responses you got?

Kelley Baumgartner: It was a lot of good, but with the good comes the bad, too. There were a lot of negative responses. I got some very nasty emails even from birth mothers saying how could I do that? They couldn't believe it. People were upset because my story was picked up by so many news outlets and theirs wasn't. They had failed attempts.

But the good responses, I mean, there were so many people that were willing to help me, thousands of people in these emails that my mom and I had gone through. It was just an amazing outpour of love. Not just from the adoption community, I mean, from total strangers. I am actually still friends with several of them that helped me through it.

Haley Radke: That's really cool. I'm sorry, I'm kind of dumbfounded. I mean, I knew this is how you found your birth mother. Do you know anything about this phenomenon of making a poster and posting it? Do you know when that kind of started?

Kelley Baumgartner: Years ago, one of my nursing friends told me that, locally here in Jacksonville, Florida, one of her good friends had made a poster and posted it on Facebook. Granted, she had a lot more information that most of us do not have, and it just circulated when Facebook first came about. And it was a very quick search. I think it took her two or three weeks to find her birth mother. And we joked about it years ago, and I just thought, okay, well what the heck? What's it gonna hurt this time?

I did it and I wasn't expecting it to actually work. We were sitting at brunch two days before my birthday, and I just told my mom, I said, this is what I want to do. I'm ready to move on. I needed to move on, and this was how I was going to do it. She was either going to come forward, I was going to find her, or I was going to just let it go.

Haley Radke: And so your adoptive mom helped you do the poster and stuff?

Kelley Baumgartner: She did. And my dad, we all three did. My parents are my best friends. I couldn't have done it without them. They've always been supportive of me and my search. And my older brother is also adopted. We're five years apart. He was the first adoptee and we have two very different stories. He doesn't want to know any information. He's completely content. And I have always been the curious cat in my family. So they knew that one of us was going to do it, and my mom knew at a very young age that I was going to be the one to do it. They've never ever held me back.

Haley Radke: Did they encourage you to search?

Kelley Baumgartner: I think she did encourage me in a way. And when we started it, I even called her every single day. I said, are you okay? I mean, I can stop now. We can delete it. Let's take it down. Like I was more nervous of how she would feel because, like I said, my mom is my absolute best friend in life. She says, no, let's do it. Let's keep going. In every interview, she was there with me. She interviewed, and it was just something that we did together.

Haley Radke: I feel like it's really common for adoptees to be very concerned about the feelings of adoptive parents. You've probably heard us talk about that on the show before.

Kelley Baumgartner: Yes, I have.

Haley Radke: So I'm hearing that a little bit, but she sounds so positive about it. That's really wonderful.

Kelley Baumgartner: My mom is amazing.

Haley Radke: That's awesome. So you have really good support there.

Kelley Baumgartner: Yeah, my dad is the quiet one in the family, so I was pretty nervous about how he was going to react. He kind of keeps his feelings to himself most of the time. But with this he was overly encouraging. Like they were just as excited with me.

Haley Radke: I'm so glad. Search and reunion brings up a lot of things often for adoptive parents, so I'm really glad for you. Okay, so let's move on and talk about how your birth mother saw the post and connected with you. How did that happen?

Kelley Baumgartner: About 30 days after I posted it had gone through most of the news sites in Indiana and the surrounding states. When she did reach out to me, she said that I saw your post a few weeks ago and I had to sit on it. She just kind of had to gather herself, I'm assuming. But she said she was scrolling through Facebook one day and she never reads this stuff. She said, I saw a woman's face and it was your face, and I knew it. She said, I didn't even have to read the poster. I saw your face and I knew what this was. And that was one of the first sentences that she emailed me.

Haley Radke: Well, that's pretty special.

Kelley Baumgartner: Yeah. Looking back now through the emails, it's a lot to take in and it's still a lot to think about today.

Haley Radke: And what about that waiting period for her? How does that make you feel?

Kelley Baumgartner: When I first got the email I was actually driving and I heard my phone go off. I was at a red light and I looked down at the notification, and I had the banner at the time, and I got this email and it says, I'm 99.9% sure I'm your birth mother. And I had to pull over on the side of the road. I had to pull over and I had to just gather myself. And I say, no, I'm not going to open this. I'm going to get home.

And I got home and I read it and I called my mom immediately. I said, you're not going to believe this. I went through at least 20 different emotions at one time. But one of the most outstanding emotions was anger because in that first email she told me that absolutely no one knew about me, that her husband didn't even know about me. And as the emails started flowing in, I got a little bit more information and she had to wait to email me so she could tell her husband about me. So that's how that began.

Haley Radke: I don't know if I've shared this before, but I found my birth father on Facebook. Not by holding up a poster, but I was fortunate enough to have his name when I got my identifying information. I wonder about that time period where it's like are you deciding again if you want to keep me? Those are the thoughts and feelings that come up for me in that.

Kelley Baumgartner: That was exactly how I felt. And then she emailed me while she was in Mexico on vacation with her family. So I'm still not understanding that part. I've heard a few different stories of timelines and how she told people, so I'm still trying to gather all of that. But from what she told me in the beginning, she found out before they went to Mexico, and then she told her husband before, and then she decided to email me while she was on vacation because she had been following my story. She saw that I had petitioned the court and she didn't want me to find out that way. So that was that.

Haley Radke: And have you met her in person?

Kelley Baumgartner: I did. We met about six months later. We met on Mother's Day weekend that year and she flew to Florida with my brother that I met. I have a younger brother. I also have a sister and we're less than a year apart. And so that was a lot to handle at one time.

My mom went with me to the airport. We did it that way and it was more comfortable. I was very nervous. I felt like this was a first date. And, you know, what if I say something to screw it up? We had been talking essentially every single day, so I was very nervous if I was gonna screw it up, if she was not gonna like me. And I was still getting to know the fact that I had a brother and sister. They had just found out about me a few months prior. She and I had corresponded for a good few months before she ever told the rest of the family.

Haley Radke: And your brother and sister, they would've been in their twenties?

Kelley Baumgartner: Yes.

Haley Radke: So they were adults?

Kelley Baumgartner: They both are, yeah. Yes. And from what I understand, they were really upset with her for a while.

Haley Radke: How do you tell your kids that?

Kelley Baumgartner: In her shoes? I can't imagine being in them. And having a sister that's less than a year apart from me. I think it took a huge toll on my sister, so I sympathize with them with that, you know, and her, you know, how do you keep such a big secret? That's 28 years of buried secrets there.

Haley Radke: How is your reunion going now?

Kelley Baumgartner: It's going. After the first time we met, it was really hard. It was only for three days and we had a lot packed into one weekend. I felt at that instant a part of someone, like I could look at her and I could see the similarities. I look at my brother and I see my son. I look at my daughter and I see my sister. They all look so much alike. That was amazing to me and it was a really awesome weekend. We all had a great time.

After that communication kind of fell apart. She is busy in the RV company and it's very big up north. So she's always working, which I understand. I was still trying to maneuver through the relationship I wanted and to see what she wanted. And having the social media put a little bit of a burden on us and our relationship and her telling friends and other family about me.

So it was a six-month rollercoaster and then we went back up there in the spring. Well, it was more in the summer. I went for my uncle’s (who I had never met) wedding up there. We stayed two weeks with her and it was probably 12 days too long. It was really hard, that time up there was really hard.

Haley Radke: What made things difficult?

Kelley Baumgartner: We went to a wedding. I met all of my cousins, all six of my aunts. And my aunt and uncles were there and they didn't know. We have a feeling that one aunt knew about me but she had passed away a few years before me finding my birth mother. But meeting all of those people at one time was so overwhelming and I don't feel that she understood that it might have been a little too much.

So she didn't understand I was having anxiety. I had a lot of panic attacks. I kind of took it out on my husband because he said, oh, it's okay. I'm like, no, you don't understand what's going on. You don't understand how I feel. And he was really trying to sympathize with me, but it was just too much all at one time. All of those people asking about my family and how I grew up. I had people saying, oh, if we would've known, this would've never happened, we would've kept you, you would've been ours. You know? I'm like, well, no I like my family. And so all of that conversation made it very difficult.

Haley Radke: It's really hard to explain those things and there's never a good time. So were you staying at her house?

Kelley Baumgartner: Yes, we stayed at her house.

Haley Radke: Okay. So you don't have any space. And are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Kelley Baumgartner: I can be at times. It depends on the situation. If I'm at home and I'm comfortable, I'm fine. And I had my husband. Our son went with us, our littlest one. My oldest two were with their dad so that was hard on me, too. But yeah. It was just so overcrowded.

Haley Radke: Too much, too soon kind of thing.

Kelley Baumgartner: Yes.

Haley Radke: So you said at the beginning you guys were talking every day. How has that settled out now? How much do you communicate?

Kelley Baumgartner: Honestly, we talk maybe once a month. I haven't talked to my sister since June. My husband actually talks to my brother often. They talk a lot. They have a lot in common. I don't have a lot in common with either of them, but he seems to and he's like, oh yeah, I talked to your brother today. I'm just like, oh, okay, that's nice. I don't really know what to say.

I still have a lot of back-and-forth feelings with the whole situation because I found out some more stuff by talking to other family members. And so I was reopening all these wounds again. I don't really make an effort and she doesn't really make an effort either. A lot of times I don't know where I stand with her. I've backed off for the most part because I just don't want to get in her way. I don't know that she was ever ready to open this closet full of skeletons. There’s no easy way to put it, but that's what it is.

*Haley Radke: And you said earlier there's the social media aspect to it, your public search and all the media coverage.

Kelley Baumgartner: She was not a fan of that at all. She didn't want her name released and I respect that. She didn't want any family members to know. My family, some of them had shared the post. Some of them had actually seen it and they had no idea, so I'm not sure if that made it a little harder. She just wanted to tell people on her terms. And I got that. I completely understood that. And that was fine with me.

But it being so public and people asking so many questions of us doing these news outlets, and these journalists writing, and radio shows. Then I didn't realize it was such a big issue until I mentioned the Steve Harvey Show. We had gotten invited onto it and we had gotten onto another talk show. I had mentioned it in passing to her and she completely lost it. At that point it was either continue on doing these shows or salvage what could be.

Haley Radke: Were you doing some interviews just kind of on your own and then she got invited on?

Kelley Baumgartner: Well, for the Steve Harvey Show, they wanted us all on. At first, it was just going to be my mom and I. We were going to fly out to Chicago, and after a few days my birth mother said, okay, well I'm not going to go on the show with you, but I'll meet you in Chicago because it's only a three-hour drive from Michigan. We said, okay. And I got to thinking about it and they really pressured me. They're like, oh, can't you just share her information? Let's get in touch with her. Let's try to talk to her. And I said, no. There were some personal boundaries they just weren't willing to work with.

Haley Radke: Oh, well, sure. Producers of the show, they want the drama.

Kelley Baumgartner: Oh yeah.

Haley Radke: That's the thing, right? People love the reunion, the certain reunion. It's like this fairytale kind of thing. It has a huge effect on everyone's lives. And for her, I mean, oh my goodness. She had to tell everyone that she knew about you. And then to go public even. Oh my goodness. What are your feelings about the media coverage that you received?

Kelley Baumgartner: Honestly, I was thankful for it because I couldn't have ever done this without that coverage. I don't think that I would have had the heart to complete it. And as far as the negative comments that I received in the negative emails, there were some really bitter people, but, you know, I wasn't gonna let them knock me down.

It fueled me a little more and it helped me go a little longer. And then in 44 days, we were able to complete it. Complete strangers, like I said, I'm so thankful for those people that helped me because without those people and without that encouragement, I mean, some days I woke up and I said, why am I doing this? I don't have the energy to do this. Like it could have taken years for her to ever see that. And by then I would've moved on. I was ready to move on at that point, too. But I've made great friends out of it and I've helped other adoptees. I have a friend who actually did the same exact thing after me, and he was able to find his birth mother, too.

Haley Radke: Really?

Kelley Baumgartner: Yeah. I think that had I not done it, he wouldn't have had the courage to do it either.

Haley Radke: I see those posts almost every day, and I always think, really? How is this going to find anyone? I don't understand, but it's amazing to hear that it actually did. But also how unfair is it that you have to broadcast your personal information just to find someone that you're biologically connected to? I think it's disturbing.

Kelley Baumgartner: It’s absolutely ridiculous. No legislator, no judge should ever sign a piece of paper to keep me from my own health history. And having three kids of my own, I have a daughter and I didn't know if breast cancer runs in my family. I would hate to find out when it's too late. My son has a skin condition and we found out that it runs through my mother's side of the family. My brother has it, my mother has it, her father had it. And she was able to give us tips. And, I mean, you have these people that don't know you from Adam filing your papers and stamping them goodbye pretty much. I don't agree with it and it's not right. And I will advocate to the end of the day to unseal those records, at least for health.

Haley Radke: Absolutely, I can't agree with you more. It's archaic. I don't get it, anyway, preaching to the choir. Did you ever think about doing DNA testing or searching in any other way?

Kelley Baumgartner: I had an attorney that I paid in Indiana to unseal all my records, actually. That Friday morning she emailed me and said, I have your records, I'm going to open them and call you on Monday. And that Sunday is when I got the email from my birth mother. So they really know its way around. She called me, and I gave her the news on Monday and she asked me if I was going to do DNA testing. She seemed very confident that this was her, just she couldn't legally tell me. But in so many words, she told me that it's okay to move on now. You have your information. But after seeing my mother and just looking at her, I don't need DNA. It was one of those things.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I totally get that. What I meant was prior to doing your public search. It's a lot more accessible and affordable now, a few years ago really wasn't.

Kelley Baumgartner: Yeah, I hadn't heard about it until I started doing my search. And, you know, I didn't have a lot of information. I had a total of, I think, five facts. So when I had put my information out there, a lot of people emailed me about doing DNA. And had this failed, that was my next step.

Haley Radke: Have you ever considered looking for your bio father, or have you?

Kelley Baumgartner: I have thought about it for a long time, even more after meeting my birth mother. And I got pretty close to someone. The idea of him being this person. I did research it this year, or lately I've been researching. I've been given some information by another aunt that there was a man in high school that my birth mother dated after high school. After their relationship, she quickly moved to another state and dropped everything, and that was the time that she had me.

I was given a name and I researched this name through Google. I didn't find anything, so I recently took to Facebook and just typed in the name. A woman's name popped up, and so did a young man's name. And I was looking, and I did know that he passed away recently from cancer. I waited about three months to email this woman and I had a feeling it was his wife. I wasn't one hundred percent sure and we got to talking. I didn't want to disrupt her life and I made that very clear. I was just looking for information.

And that's when I found out that he passed so recently, and she knows my family name and she knew everyone in my family except my birth mother. She hadn't heard about her yet. My birth name is very big in the town. It's a very small town. But she had offered to do DNA testing. And over the past month or two, I've decided I just needed to back off because I didn't want to tarnish any memory they had of him. And that's such a hard time for them still, even a year after that happens. It's still hard.

And she has a son and they said that if and when I was ever ready that they would do DNA testing with the son. But at this point, I've kind of backed off of it just to let them have their memories. You know, maybe I could find a little bit more information, but my birth mother is not willing to share any at this time.

Haley Radke: Did you actually ask her?

Kelley Baumgartner: I have asked her.

Haley Radke: Whoa, you're brave. Lots of us just don't even get the courage up to do that.

Kelley Baumgartner: We were sitting on my couch the weekend we met and I said, who is my birth father? And she looked like a deer in headlights, but I wasn't going to hold back. You kept me a secret for 28 years. I think that I just got some encouragement that day. I was ready for some answers and her response was, I don't know. And I do know that she does know, and she claims that it's just a deep, buried secret.

I just think that it's someone that she doesn't want to hurt, or it may have been someone that may have been married. That is my thought, and my aunt and I have lots of thoughts about it. There is the one aunt that I talked to about everything and we've grown pretty close. She helps me try and hint around to my birth mother, but we've kind of gotten nowhere yet. But, yeah, I was more than willing to ask her all the dirty questions.

Haley Radke: Good for you. It’s your right to know, I think.

Kelley Baumgartner: I agree. I think a really hard thing in our reunion is that she does have information that she's not willing to share, and it's something that I either have to deal with and move on from or push a little harder. But I fear that the harder I push, the more tangled our relationship will become. And so that's something that I'm not sure what I want to do with yet.

Haley Radke: What's the idealized picture of a reunion for you with your birth mom and with your siblings? What would that look like?

Kelley Baumgartner: When I was growing up, my brother and I always talked about this. I had this figment in my head that it was going to be this wonderful woman. And she was going to still be married to my birth father. And, you know, we were just going to have this amazing relationship. And my brother always growing up was like, no, Kelley, you really need to have a real feeling that this might not happen to you.

And when I was searching, I searched off and on for eight years and I hit brick wall after brick wall. And each time I just built this figment of an amazing woman in my head and how awesome she is, and I just didn't wanna be let down. And I definitely over-fantasized. I still fantasized about it, what if I didn't do this? Was the figment in my head better than what I have now?

So my ideal relationship would be just to be close with this person and have all my answers out in the open. But as adoptees, we know that's most probably not going to happen. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Haley Radke: And your adoptive parents and her, did they have a relationship at all?

Kelley Baumgartner: They're friends on Facebook. One of the things my mom said to her when she first met my birth mother is thank you. And it's the one thing that we set out to say in the very beginning. If we got nothing else out of this search, we wanted to say thank you.

My parents couldn't conceive. My mother had several miscarriages due to endometriosis later being diagnosed, so it was a really rough time for them. They waited, I think, seven years for my brother and five years for me, and my mom is very grateful for this woman. And so I think that they have an unspoken bond with each other. I don't think they really talk other than in passing on Facebook.

Haley Radke: So how have you come to balance this? You have this wonderful relationship with your adoptive parents. You always wanted to know your bio mother, and it's not exactly how you pictured it. How have you balanced these two things in your mind?

Kelley Baumgartner: With a lot of prayer and petition, a lot of patience. Being such a big secret, my mom always reminds me that I need to be patient with her and that in time she can come around and that this is all still so fresh. You go from 28 years of burying this entire life behind you, and you think you're in the clear. And then here it comes creeping out.

With my birth mom, I know that I need to be patient with her, and my adoptive mom has always reminded me of that. She kind of keeps me sane. That is what keeps me sane, my relationship with my adoptive mother. And we talk every single day, two to three times a day. And, you know, she's just been encouraging. No matter what situation, I can talk to her about it. So that's how I balanced it. With a lot of faith and even if it doesn't work out and one day her or I are ready to split ways, at least we know we tried. And at the end of the day, I will always have my adoptive parents there.

Haley Radke: Is there anything that your adoptive parents did differently? I don't want to answer my own question here, but I feel like they let you feel those feelings and encouraged you to reconnect and not suppress the grief that a lot of us have from that loss.

Kelley Baumgartner: You're a hundred percent right. Through my journey I've met a lot of other adoptees that are terrified of their adoptive parents, and that they didn't find out they were adopted until they were teenagers and 18 and even older. To me personally, that's shocking because having my own children, I can't imagine looking them in the face every day and lying to them. I mean, it's essentially what you're doing.

I grew up in a Christian-based home, and even before my brother and I were brought home, or shortly after, my parents had a book made of adoption. It's always been laid out on the table. It is what it is. This is what you have. Never be afraid to ask a question. We will always try and help you. And that's how it's been. And that's how I was raised.

Adoption is an amazing thing in my family with what my mother went through. You know, it's a glorified situation. So I think I might have had it easier than a lot of adoptees that I understand, and I'm so beyond thankful for that because I've just heard the heartbreaking realities of what adoption can look like and then what I got.

Haley Radke: How has your faith impacted your adoption journey?

Kelley Baumgartner: That too has been a little bit of a rollercoaster with eight years of searching off and on. You kind of get in these ruts and you're like, is it meant to be or is it not? And I would pray so hard for something to happen, one of these doors to open.

We used the company Omnitrace when I was 18 years old and it was a nightmare. And after that I said, I'm giving up, this isn't what God wants. And I was angry for a long time. I was given this life, but I'm only being told part of it. I struggled a lot with using prayer and using my relationship with God to move forward through things.

But now as I'm older and I've met my birth mother, I think the timing and fate is all wrapped into one. I wasn't ready. I wasn't mature enough for that reality to happen. You know, it's just all in the right timing.

Haley Radke: I really struggle with this. How do you balance a positive upbringing, you love your adoptive parents, but there's this great loss of your biology and your genetic history and people who look like you and behave like you and all of those things. How do you reconcile that? Can you?

Kelley Baumgartner: I don't think at any given point that you can. I think it's all a big wound and it just needs time to heal. I think it got a little harder when I was able to look these people in the face and I see the similarities and, like I said, I look at my son and I look at my daughter and they look identical to that family. That's probably the hardest part for me: when or if she ever walks away from me, I have the two constant reminders that's what it is. The biology, you're right. I don't think anyone would ever move on from it a hundred percent. And I don't think that it's good to push it away either. I think that's something that we all need to accept. It just takes time to accept.

Haley Radke: So what are some of the wounds that you would've felt from being an adoptee, even though you had amazing adoptive parents

Kelley Baumgartner: In high school we all do that history project of yourself and your nationality and where you came from and stuff. And you go to the doctor and you fill that paperwork out. And I still can't fill it out because I still don't know because the woman I know that holds all this information isn't ready to talk yet. And if she ever will be, who knows? All I get is, oh no, there's no major things, or I don't know or I'll have to look that up. And six months go by. I think that's still hard for me to do.

Haley Radke: Have you done anything, any therapy, any healing things to heal the losses or the grief of losing your first family?

Kelley Baumgartner: I have. I actually started therapy about a year ago. I was okay for the first year that we met. I felt like I was good until I realized things were falling apart right in front of my face. My marriage was dissolving after I met my birth mother. I had a lot of anxiety. A lot of feelings were being brought up, and I didn't feel like my husband understood.

After we would talk on the phone, I would just feel a lot of anxiety and I couldn't understand where it was stemming from. After our two visits it was really hard on my marriage too. Having spent all this time with these people and just getting to know them, and here we go again, across country. That was really hard and I didn't feel like he understood, even though he did, and he was trying. He brought up that maybe you need to talk to someone. And so I did.

I saw a therapist for a year, and I just quit this January. I just decided that I'm good now. Whatever happens happens; my marriage has never been healthier. My family is happy and I don't think a therapist will fix me. Not that I mean we're broken. We're adoptees. We're missing pieces of our lives and we don't know that we'll ever get them back. But I can't have someone glue me back together either. I need to find outlets that work for me.

Running is one of those outlets, and I've ran for years and I stopped after I met my birth mother. I don't know really what it was. I really don't know why I stopped. I just thought I was okay because I met her and that everything was going to be one big happy fairy tale and it wasn't. So I just started running again a couple days ago, and that's been the best therapy for me. That's where I can just think about everything and then just keep going.

Haley Radke: You look so happy when you're talking about that. Is there anything that we haven't covered yet, Kelley, that you want to touch on?

Kelley Baumgartner: I want people to know that if they're thinking about searching, they should, don't hold back. Just keep going. If it's something that they want to do, I think that they should do it. And if they don't have the support in their life, then hopefully they can find the support in themselves to push themselves to the point where they want to be because they're never going to be happy sitting on a sideline.

Haley Radke: So many of us wait and wait until it's too late

Kelley Baumgartner: It's a comfort zone, waiting. I quit off and on searching, and I was comfortable not knowing. But by not knowing it becomes too late. And then regrets flow in. And we all say we don't regret things, but at the end of the day, I think a lot of people do regret things.

And I don't want a search to be something that someone ever regrets not doing. Because no matter the turnout, if it's ugly or if it's good, you know that you were a strong enough person to go through it. And at the end of the day you have yourself. You're strong enough to do it. You're strong enough to push past it and you were a good person to do it.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Let's do recommended resources. Okay. My recommended resource today I'm super excited about because she calls herself my number one fan. I just have to laugh about that. Anne Heffron. I don't know if you've heard of her, Kelley, she wrote the memoir, You Don't Look Adopted.

Kelley Baumgartner: Oh my gosh, I haven’t.

Haley Radke: Yeah. She actually sent it to me a few months ago after listening to the podcast. Basically, she's fallen in love with the podcast. So thank you, Anne. Love you. And I haven't actually finished the memoir because it's written in a very different style. Sometimes it's just some inner thoughts she's having and sometimes it's a memory. It's very interesting, but it's very deep, and I just can't read it quickly. I read a few pages at a time and I'm like, whoa, I got a lot of stuff to think about here.

So she's very candid about her history in the book. There's lots of ups and downs. I would say that she's brutally honest and she shares about random feelings that adoptees have sometimes. She writes this part about believing that you came from nowhere and how that can affect you sometimes. And there's this little section I want to read to you. It's called “Four in One”:

“I was four people jammed into one. I was the me that my mom wanted. I was the me I would've been if my birth mom had kept me. I was the me I would've been in if another family had adopted me. And I was the me that was just me. I couldn't commit to one. And so I was a little bit of all four. This made me unpredictable and unknowable both to those around me and to myself.”

So that's a little section of the book. You know, you read that short little thing and I'm like, whoa, I gotta think about that for a while. She also blogs regularly at anneheffron.com. I'll have links to the blog and her book and everything in the show notes for this episode. I'm super excited because Anne agreed to give away a copy of her book. I'll let you all know how you can enter for that at the end of the show.

And, sorry, I have all this stuff because she's so excited. I am too. She's lovely. I just asked her before we were recording, I messaged her and I said, so is there anything you want us to know about your book, your blog? I said, we're recording tonight. And so she sent me this little note. I want to read it for you.

She writes that “I thought being so honest about my feelings, and if I admitted the extent to which my body and mind seemed affected by adoption, I might actually die. I was that afraid; it was like facing a dragon, but I lived and I see that adoption's effects are even more long reaching than I had suspected. I write with the hope that I will better understand myself so I can come from a place of strength, and so that people touched by adoption will have a bird's eye view into the life of an adoptee and either feel not alone or educated or supported.”

Any thoughts on that? You're gonna check it out, right, Kelley?

Kelley Baumgartner: Oh my gosh. Is it on Amazon?

Haley Radke: Oh, it's totally on Amazon.

Kelley Baumgartner: I'm going to order it tomorrow morning.

Haley Radke: Good. It's wonderful. Okay. What would you like to recommend to us today?

Kelley Baumgartner: I love Adoptees in Recovery. The Facebook page is amazing. It's a spot where she accepts questions from adoptees or birth parents. It's really awesome to read some of the questions because they're questions that I think that we all have and they're kind of just surfacing. But once you read them from someone else and you read the responses, I just like to soak them in and, you know, sometimes it's a problem that I might have and I didn't even realize it. So I absolutely love going to check her webpage. Almost daily I get on her Facebook and look at the new questions and all the answers.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Okay, so this is Pamela Karanova’s site that you're talking about and she was a guest in Season One and she will be so pleased to hear that. I agree, it's a wonderful place and the responses are really interesting because there's the whole gamut, right? There's people that are really happy they were adopted. There's people that see the challenges in it. And you get a wide perspective.

Kelley Baumgartner: Absolutely. That's what I love most.

Haley Radke: Okay, this is kind of different. I'm just interrupting because we are rerecording the second part of our Recommended Resources section just because there's been kind of an update. So Ask An Adoptee is a Facebook page and there's also How Does It Feel To Be Adopted. Those are kind of like sister pages.

Okay. So the update is Pamela Karanova started those Facebook pages; they go along with her website. She runs a website called Adoptees in Recovery and also How Does It Feel To Be Adopted. And she's decided to take a little break from Facebook, so I'm actually going to be running them for the next little while. I wanted to make a full disclosure. But they'll carry on to be just the same as when Pamela ran them.

So Ask An Adoptee, like you said, people can ask questions there. This one is the one that Pamela built for non-adoptees to ask adoptees questions. Adoptive parents or bio family can message the page privately and then we will post the question anonymously, but then in the comment section only adoptees are allowed to answer and give their opinions.

Secondly, the How Does It Feel To Be Adopted page, that's one where adoptees can just share their experiences and stories. And that goes along with Pamela's website where she has a giant collection of adoptees who have sent her blog posts sharing their story. Maybe it's their whole adoption story. Maybe it's just a piece of their reunion journey or their search. Have you seen that page at all, Kelley?

Kelley Baumgartner: I did. I actually wrote a blog for her.

Haley Radke: Oh, did you?

Kelley Baumgartner: Yes, I did.

Haley Radke: Oh, wonderful. Can we link to that in the show notes? Would that be okay?

Kelley Baumgartner: Oh, absolutely.

Haley Radke: Oh, awesome. That's so cool. I didn't know that. Okay, so I know you're a really big fan of these pages. Is moderating the comments maybe something that you would be interested in doing, helping out a little bit?

Kelley Baumgartner: Oh, absolutely.

Haley Radke: Oh, that would be so fun. Okay, so you're going to get Kelley and I together to steward these pages for Pamela as she's on her Facebook fast. And I'm excited. I hope we get lots of questions. So if you guys have a question and you want to send them in you can message us on either of those pages, or you can find us online. You're not on Twitter, you're on Instagram.

Kelley Baumgartner: No, I can't figure Twitter out.

Haley Radke: Okay, well, where can we find you, Kelley?

Kelley Baumgartner: You can find me on Kelley Baumgartner at Facebook. Or on Instagram as KelleyMarie87.

Haley Radke: Awesome. I will put those links in the show notes as well so people can follow you. And thank you so much for your time. It was such an honor to be able to share your story with our listeners, and I know that people are going to get great insight and value from hearing it.

Kelley Baumgartner: Yes, it was great. Thank you.

Haley Radke: Isn't Kelley great? She is such a delight. Okay, it's giveaway time. I am doing a quick listener survey to find out more about you, and that will help me tailor the show exactly towards the things that you would like to hear. So you can find us on adopteeson.com/survey and when you complete it, you will be entered to win a trio of recommended resources. Anne Heffron’s book, You Don't Look Adopted, that Kelley and I just chatted about. And then from Season One, episode 7, we interviewed Mary Anna King. She's going to give us a copy of her book, Bastards. And Season One, episode 9, Liz Story's book, A Series of Extreme Decisions: An Adoptee's Story. The only caveat is only the first 100 of you to complete the survey can enter to win these awesome books. So go right away to adopteeson.com/survey.

What about the secret Facebook group I was talking about in the intro? I want to be able to bring you more content, more ways to interact with me and the guests we hear from, but I wanted it to be in a private and safe space for you.

If you love the show and want to join me in building this adoptee community, I would be honored if you would partner with me. There's some amazing rewards in it for you like access to that secret Facebook group. Adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. And if you have questions about it, just send me a note on the adopteeson.com website. Go to adopteeson.com/partner for the details.

My very last thing for today, would you tell just one person about Adoptees On? Maybe the next person you see share an adoptee holding up a poster on social media? They might like to hear about Kelley's experience. Thank you so much and thanks for listening. Let's talk again soon. How about next Friday?

Haley Radke: Okay, Isaiah, can you say “Adopteeson.com”?

Isaiah: Adoptees on com slash survey. You can win three free books and adoptees on com slash partner. Buy my mommy a coffee.

Haley Radke: Thanks buddy.

Isaiah: Let's talk again next Friday.

14 [Healing Series] Surviving the Holidays

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/14

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is a bonus healing episode, where we are going to help you survive the holidays. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Let's meet today's special guest. This is Lesli Johnson, a fellow adoptee and licensed therapist who works to help other adoptees connect the dots of their story and live authentically.

Welcome, Lesli.

Lesli A. Johnson: Thank you. I'm really glad to be here.

Haley Radke: It's your first time on the show. I'd love it if you would just give a little brief bio so we can get to know you a little better.

Lesli A. Johnson: Sure. I am a licensed therapist. I work out of Los Angeles. I also do some virtual work. I've been licensed for about 15 years and probably in the last eight years, really started working a lot with adoptees and adoptive families, primarily, because of my own experience having been in therapy in my twenties.

I'm also adopted–I was adopted, and my therapist never touched on my adoption. And as I was going through graduate school and work and as I began my private practice, I realized there are so few adoption-competent therapists and adoptees come into therapy a lot and adoptive families come into therapy a lot with a similar issue.

I just decided that was going to be the area that I focused on and I absolutely love it.

Haley Radke: And have you searched? Are you in reunion?

Lesli A. Johnson: I am in reunion with my birth mother. Her name is Candace, and her family… She found me when I was in my mid twenties. And at that time I didn't pursue a relationship with her, primarily based on my relationship with my adoptive family.

But I am in a relationship with her now, and with her brother and his wife and their extended family. And I did search also for my biological father, but found out that he had died many years ago.

Haley Radke: I'm sorry. It definitely sounds like you understand what fellow adoptees go through. You are one and so that is such a blessing for your clients. I'm sure they're so fortunate that you can understand what they're going through.

Lesli A. Johnson: Thanks. Thank you. I hope so.

Haley Radke: Okay, so let's dive in. I am thinking a lot about holidays and how adoptees survive holidays, Mother's Day, birthdays…

And it's so tough, because if we're in reunion, or even if we're not, we can be with our adoptive families, but often those holidays will bring up triggers (that's the word I always use, I always go to)... bring up all these feelings about, “I'm with my adoptive family, but maybe I wish I was with my bio family,” or vice versa.

How do we survive it? Tell us what to do.

Lesli A. Johnson: I think the holidays are sometimes hard enough for anyone and for adoptees (like you mentioned), they can be harder. Because a lot of times, what I've heard in my practice is that we're maybe with one family and celebrating with our adoptive family and thinking about our biological or first family.

And if, for younger people (that I've worked with), they're often wondering, “Does my birth mother–would she recognize me? Would she– Is she celebrating?” Just sort of this fantasy that it creates. An author and adoptee herself (she's no longer alive, but I'm sure you've heard of Betty Jean Lifton) kind of calls this fantasy world the ghost kingdom.

And I think holidays can trigger an adoptee to really be in that ghost kingdom–wondering, “What would it have been like if I wasn't adopted? What would it be like to celebrate my birthday?” The day that– There were two people there that day of the birth, the birth mother and the child. “What would it be like? To be with her on my birthday?” So I think that it does trigger a lot of adoptees. Maybe not all, but a lot. And I think that it's really important to be aware of those triggers and do whatever is needed to take care of oneself.

And if the person is an adult, what are the things that they can do to nurture themselves? If it's a child, or a teenager, hopefully the adoptive family is talking about the grief and loss piece of adoption, even amidst the holidays. To again, to bring to light what might not be being talked about.

Haley Radke: Okay, so I'm sitting at dinner and someone brings up, “Oh, you look so much like Auntie So-and-so,” who I'm not biologically related to. And that triggers me, and I start thinking about, “I don't look like anyone around this table.” And I freak out inside. What do I do in that moment?

Lesli A. Johnson: Again, not to compare it to just a typical family, but that a lot of things are said during the holidays by relatives that are kind of shocking or surprising. And really, again, being aware of your own internal processes, and again, doing whatever is needed to calm yourself down. So maybe that's excusing yourself from the table. Maybe it's talking about adoption. Maybe it's bringing it up. Maybe it's again, just bringing up what's not being spoken, Yeah, it's funny, maybe I have some of Aunt Dottie's mannerisms, but I also have (if the person's in reunion), I also have Sue's facial expression, or something, if it feels–if that feels possible to talk about. But I think it's more about an adoptee giving themselves permission to not always go along.

So that doesn't mean that they might–that they would declare something, but that they could just get up and excuse themselves and maybe, you know, take a walk around the block. I think a theme for adoptees (and you may relate to this), is a lot of times we are conditioned that we need to go along to keep our place in the adoptive family to stay in the good?

And so I think that's part of the work that I do, is really empowering adoptees to come into their own and realize they don't have to always go along. And that doesn't (again) have to be some big declaration, but just that own felt sense of I may have some characteristics of my adoptive family and I also, most likely, have characteristics of my biological family.

Haley Radke: I love that idea of getting up from the table. I feel like I could do that; that's a comfortable thing for me. Because you can just excuse yourself and then you can have some time to yourself and just reflect. That's a really great one. Thank you. How do I enjoy my time with my adoptive family and turn off those constant things that might come to mind?

I want to enjoy, in the moment, where I am, and not fixate on my–who I'm not with.

Lesli A. Johnson: I think that it's probably not a "one size fits all" bit of advice, but I think really applying the notion of mindful awareness, which is moment-to-moment awareness of what's happening in the present.

So even noticing those feelings of maybe loss or wonder and then just returning back, bringing your attention back to what's in front of you. And doing that over and over and over through the course of the day or the holiday season, even. And again, it's not a “one size fits all,” because maybe some families have more openness surrounding adoption. Maybe some people are in reunion, and so they may have that issue or situation where they're spending some time with their adoptive family, some time with their biological family, which might create its own situation. And again, just applying that idea of moment-to-moment awareness and letting yourself experience whatever feelings you have and then bringing your attention back to the conversation at the table, or the dinner, or the lights on the tree–whatever's in front of you.

Haley Radke: Can you coach us a little bit on– say we are in reunion and we do have dinner with adoptive family, and then we have a dinner with a bio family, or you're traveling…

How do we talk to each of those families, differently, about the other? I think you know what I'm getting at.

Lesli A. Johnson: I do, I do. And it, I guess it (again), it depends on the people involved and how much of their own work they've done. Is there openness among all of the adults, or is–are the adoptive parents able to have conversations with first parents?

Is it that open, to where there's not as much of a struggle for the adoptee to navigate back and forth? And again, I really think in the adult state and when a person is an adult, they get to give themselves permission to have these conversations and that the adults have to take care of themselves.

Meaning, if I say to my adoptive parents, “I'm gonna spend Christmas Eve here and then I'm gonna go spend Christmas Day with Joe and Sue.” That might be disappointing to my adoptive parents, but they get to take care of their own feelings, regarding being disappointed. It's like what I try to do is help adoptees release some of that burden of trying to please everyone, especially if they are in reunion. To, kind of, release that feeling of, "I'm responsible for my adoptive parents' feelings. I'm responsible for my birth parents' feelings."

Yeah. Ideally, everyone can do their own work and take care of their own feelings. Again, easier said than done. Something to work toward.

Haley Radke: Yes. I love that you've phrased it that way, because I'm sure if you've heard some of our episodes in season one, we often talk about how responsible we do feel for every party involved at the expense of ourselves and our own mental health, truly.

Lesli A. Johnson: Right. And I think it really is part of, again, part of my work is really even with younger adoptees and their families, really letting parents know, “This is your stuff. You know. This is your stuff to work on and see a therapist.” And letting the adoptee have their own experience, have their own feelings.

And that, and reminding parents that their curiosity and their wonder about their biology isn't a rejection of them. It's natural to want to know about your biology. It's natural to want to know. I always say part of knowing who you are is knowing where you came from.

Haley Radke: That's so true. Okay, so wrapping up, we don't have to engage in those conversations that might trigger us.

We can try and be in the moment and practice some mindfulness, so we don't have to think about where we could be, or maybe where we want to be. That's awesome. Really helpful. Any other last tips that you wanna give us so we can get through unscathed?

Lesli A. Johnson: It's funny, I just thought of when I work with families up with littler, with smaller children, we do coaching in my office, where we teach.

And this may or may not be applicable to adults, but it just made me laugh when I was thinking of sitting at a big table with family, and it's called the Center for Adoption Education and Support, or Support and Education. And they call it Wise Up, and it's an acronym. It's W I S E.

So when someone asks a question, you can walk away, you can ignore, you can tell a little bit about your adoption story, or you can educate. And I just thought about that in terms of an adult, at a, again, at a holiday gathering and maybe deciding again on your own terms, what you wanna share, what you wanna talk about, or if you want to stand up again and walk outside, excuse yourself.

Haley Radke: That's great. I can do most of those things. Oh, thanks so much, Lesli. That is some wise info so we can get through the holidays. Where can we connect with you online?

Lesli A. Johnson: My website address is yourmindfulbrain.com. I also have a second website: Asktheadoptee.com and my Twitter name is @Lesli, spelled L e s l i A Johnson, so @LesliAJohnson, and my Facebook page is yourmindfulbrain.com.

Haley Radke: Thank you.

Lesli A. Johnson: Sure. Thank you. Happy Holidays.

Haley Radke: You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Adoptees On, or we're on facebook.com/adopteesonpodcast. Please come and share your tips with us for getting through the holidays as an adoptee. You can expect more healing focused episodes with Lesli and other adoptee therapists during season two, which will begin in February.

Would you help spread the word? Review us on iTunes and tell one adoptee friend who's feeling the holiday stress, like I am. Just one last thing. I have an amazing social media intern, Calla. Thanks, Calla. And she is really excited about doing a little video project for us. If you're a fan of the show and would like to help Calla with this project, check out adopteeson.com/video for some further details.

Thanks for listening. Let's talk again soon.

13 Finale

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/13

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Haley Radke: You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season One, episode 13, Finale. I'm your host Haley Radke. It's our season finale, and I have invited a special guest to help me wrap up season one.

We chat about some themes we've seen throughout the interviews. I give you a peek behind the scenes, we talk about plans for season two, and I share an in-depth view of my first reunion. That starts around the 28-minute mark if you'd like to skip the chit-chat. We'll wrap up with some recommended resources for you.

I am so pleased to welcome back to the show, Carrie Cahill Mulligan, my very first guest on episode one, and now you're back.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, yay, Haley. I'm so delighted to be here. And how strange and wonderful to be at the end of season one.

Haley Radke: Oh, don't tell people. I want to pretend like it's not ending.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, really? Okay. But aren't we going to talk about how this season went? Won't they notice?

Haley Radke: Yeah, they'll notice. I'm sad. I don't want it to be the season finale, but it just is.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It just is. You know, it's hard to let go for us.

Haley Radke: Yes, adoptee problems, so….

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I want to take the reins just a little bit, even though this is so faux pas of me, but I've been really hoping the whole time that we would get to hear your story. So, I know we've got other things to talk about, but I just want to let people know we're going to hear a little bit more about your story.

Haley Radke: Aw, that's so sweet. I'm very nervous about sharing it and, how do I say this, I kind of feel hypocritical because I ask super-duper personal questions and just have no qualms about it. And now I'm like, ooh, yeah. So we will get to that.

First, I wanted to just chat with you a little bit about season one, so far 12 episodes. And I don't even know how to thank you and all of the guests that I've had opening up your hearts to us. I'm going to cry just thinking about it.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I have to say, Haley, it has been such a gift and a blessing to have the platform. I imagine really it only could have been another adoptee like yourself.

I am not a Christian and religious in the way that you are, but I believe some things are meant to be. And I think you were born to do this show, so thank you for taking it up. It is not easy to hear the stories either. So you've been at ground zero, listening, asking the deep questions and witnessing the hard answers that you get. So thank you for making the space.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I keep answering those kinds of comments on social media with “It's my absolute honor” and that is the truth. I have enjoyed every moment, but it has been very difficult for me and that's why we're going to end the season now, so that I can come back and do season two refreshed.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Well, I think a dozen was your initial plan, right? You had never had a podcast before. This was your first crack. You're not suddenly just breaking off, right?

Haley Radke: No. But midway through I was like, oh, this is great. I can just keep going. And I was like, ooh, yeah...no.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I have to say, not being at ground zero but just being keenly interested to hear each story, I started the season really excited to hear them, each episode, and quickly realized how much I was resonating with the difficult parts of these difficult stories. And over time I realized, oh, it's hard. Healing is hard.

It's important to hear the stories, but man, I was not thinking I was going through reunion stuff and I was just going to tell you my story. And then suddenly listening to more and more stories and hearing similarities and differences. Man!

Haley Radke: After our interviews a lot of you had lots of big feelings come up and some big life stuff. We really have opened ourselves up to some more opportunities for healing.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: For healing, yeah. I shared earlier with you before we started that for the past 48 hours I have been listening to the episodes back-to-back to refresh myself. And I was really curious about similarities and differences. If you don't mind, I'd love to quickly share a couple of those that struck me.

Haley Radke: For sure. Let me start with one thing, I think every single one of you said the word “surreal” about reunion or seeing photos of bio family members. Surreal. Every single one. It was just so weird.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Surreal, and the focus on the likenesses and wanting to see your place in a genetic tribe.

Haley Radke: Yeah, the genetic mirroring, for sure. Okay, I'm totally interested. I can't believe you binged it all.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It wasn't easy, but really it was fascinating. I wish I'd taken notes. The next thing that really stuck out to me was the intensity with which a majority of people are concerned about so many other people's feelings as a total given. That the adoptee juggles the adoptive parents' feelings and the biological parents' feelings and the siblings’ feelings, and the as yet unmet siblings’ feelings.

And something that I've been working on in therapy is that, really, I'm not responsible for anyone else's feelings, but it was such a common given that we all seem to do that.

Haley Radke: I'm remembering Liz Story saying it the most strongly. It stuck in my mind. And she just said: “We just are responsible; we just are.”

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Right, but we’re not though.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I know.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: But you are. You feel it.

Haley Radke: You absolutely feel it.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It's so deep and so fundamental that we don't even question it. But then hearing it all around, each of us saying it, it was like, wow.

Haley Radke: My parents still don't know about this show. How about that?

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Wow. And you went through all those family things?

Haley Radke: So, I'm thinking my parents may find out at some point. I don't know. I'm just too nervous to tell them. Honestly, I just don't know.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: What is the root of the nerves? Is it the fear of disapproval and rejection? Is it fear of hurting them? Is it a combination?

Haley Radke: It's always fear of hurting them. I've only said one thing about them this whole show and I almost took it out. It was when I was talking with Maeve and we were comparing notes on how our adoptive parents say, “Oh, you are so much like so and so in my family.” And you're like, what? But we're not related. That's impossible.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: That was one of the things I was going to mention between shows, that whole genetic fascination and family. And I do remember you talking about your parents, how brave you were, but I didn't realize they hadn't been listening.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's the only thing I've mentioned. And I've tried to be super cautious. I don't want to censor myself too much.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: No, but it's fascinating how much we juggle that. It has felt like a bit of a weakness in my own growth. And then I just realized, oh my gosh, we all have it. It's not a personal failing, it's a situational outcome.

How many different metaphors talked about compartmentalizing? How many different stories talked about the rejection in the secondary rejection? Or the shame feelings just being something you put away and deal with?

So, I don't blame you. This is not an easy thing to be doing. That reminds me of one of the other similarities I noticed in a lot of the interviews, and that was the desire not to pressure the mother for any more information, like with the desire to know about the father.

But who was it who waited eight years and never even asked?

Haley Radke: I think that was Liz Story.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yeah! To never even ask, to be that patient, but she just couldn't risk upsetting her mother, to lose that connection, which I totally get. But, wow. That was definitely a thread among a lot of interviews.

Haley Radke: Yes. And I think the most common way they spoke about it was: I don't want to scare her off.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yes. I don't want to pressure her. I don't want her to think I'm too crazy. I don't want anything more than just to hear her voice and see someone who looks like me. One thing that I found was definitely maybe half and half in the group, or maybe even I was in a minority, but the difference between people who wanted to search early and obsessed sort of early on, thinking and wondering and needing to know early versus not feeling a super need to search. Davis didn’t until later.I didn’t feel the need until later.

For me, it was because I had a story on paper, it wasn't entirely true, but I've been wondering if at least having a narrative that included a why (They were not married. They thought long and hard about it. They agreed on it). There was an emotional backstory. And that gave me something to go on.

And this ties into another thing that I feel a lot of adoptees expressed in season one which is that you just want to fit in. I think it was Maeve talking about her weird adoptee group. They didn't explain. You don't want to be the different one. And I think for some adoptees coming out of the fog, why do you want to go and point out all the things that make you different?

Why do you want to go look at that? And as much as we all are faced with the grateful term, and what a weird label and double-edged sword that is, I think we all had a lot of gratitude anyway in the ambivalence. There was always a lot of gratitude expressed for the people that did at least try and search and found something, even if it didn't turn out well. It was fascinating to me.

Haley Radke: Okay. I have two comments on similarities for the show. Most people, I've noticed, if it's painful for them to be talking about something go to flat affect, right? Monotone. Monotone, very flat affect, and laughter. Oh my goodness. So much awkward laughter. And that's my go-to anyway, so I'm just laughing along with them.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: and snort-laughing!

Haley Radke: I don't think I've done that yet. But I totally laugh all the time. I've heard from some of the guests that they can't believe they laugh so much talking about all these painful things. We're just trying to protect ourselves, right? It's just kind of that defense mechanism.

Now, and my last thing is I have found out what my verbal tics are and what my guests’ verbal tics are. I wish I had been collecting a big long blooper reel of “ums” and “you know.” So mine, you gotta guess what mine is. What do I say all the time?

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, I feel on the spot. I don't know.

Haley Radke: I say “wonderful.” And I say “absolutely.” And I need a thesaurus page of words taped up, or something.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I have to tell you, I have some childhood girlfriends, a couple other adoptee friends, and a couple adult friends who have been trying to understand where I'm coming from better.

And one of those I play hockey with, and so we were talking today about you and I talking tonight, and she said, oh, and that interviewer, she's just so sweet and just empathetic. And, anyway, whatever your ticks are, I don't notice them because I just feel so loved and heard when I talk to you.

Haley Radke: Oh, that is so sweet. I have heard some super embarrassing comments and I don't want to say them all because I'll be too embarrassed and humble. But I've heard honey- voiced and I laughed the most at that because that was one of the very first comments about my voice I heard. And I don't recall who I was talking about it with, but I was like, oh my goodness, people still call my house and ask if my mother is home. So I'm glad that it suited me now to host a podcast. But for my life, I've sounded like a child. Yeah, that's the one that sticks out in my mind. But I've heard a lot of “sweet Canadian,” that kind of thing.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Are there any other similarities or not commonalities, things you might have thought would be more common that weren't in season one? Was there anything that surprised you?

Haley Radke: I was surprised by how people just poured out their stories. Now, I'm sure everyone knows I edit these interviews, obviously. I cut them down for those verbal tics. And questions that fall flat or my bad questions; I get rid of those. But most people just told their story, almost without prompting. And what I've credited that to is we don't share our stories.

And this might've been, for some I know it was, the very first time they told their whole story. How else can I feel but completely honored to be the first one to hear it. And so I guard them so closely and I edit so they can be honored by sharing with us. I didn't realize people were gonna tell me all this stuff, Carrie!

I knew some of you from Twitter. Landric was a listener who emailed me and then came on. And then Davis. This is cool because Maeve, in her episode, recommended his essay, “Am I Blood or am I Water?” So when her episode went out, she contacted Davis and said, oh, I just want to let you know I mentioned you. And then Davis reached out to me and said, oh, this is so great, I'm really loving the podcast. I said, oh, do you want to come on? He responded with, sure!

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, so cool.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so that's been all really cool. But people are hearing us and, you know, they might think we're best friends or something, but we've only talked on the podcast. We tweet each other, but we've never met or anything.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: No, but I have to say, I'm gonna go back to saying it, that the sympathetic ear that does not correct or judge in all the ways that we're used to our stories having to fit in with the dominant narrative, that it is the first time, unless you've stolen a chance at an adoptee group. I got to meet Rebecca Hawk a couple three years ago in the fall, and that was my first adoptee conversation in my whole life.

So talking with you these couple times, that's really it. I've shared with my women's group. But you get a lot of “I just don't get it. How come you can't just be happy?” You know? But very sincere. Like, how can this be bad if you were loved and raised in a loving family?

Like, how's that bad? They didn't want you? Oh God. So how do you continue your story in that environment? You know, this show is a wonderful space where there aren't any triggering questions.

Haley Radke: I try my very hardest to just listen, and I definitely do cut out giant awkward pauses because if I just listen two or three more seconds, they start again into something deeper. And yeah, that's been very cool.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I think that's super smart, and I loved the technique you've had of just asking people at the end if there's anything else. Because sometimes they say, how did we not get to that point yet? That's really cool.

Haley Radke: Oh yes. And like super truth bombs come out there.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yeah. And we've just had an hour of really cool deep stuff and then, oh yeah, by the way, here's this: boom!

Haley Radke: And I've thought about those things for days and days after.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Again, I am super excited that after some time to process and settle down and filter through and do some growing and thinking on season one that you are up for tackling season two.

Haley Radke: Okay, well, let's just talk about it right now.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Do you have ideas?

Haley Radke: Well, I definitely want to keep doing interviews with new adoptees who haven't had a voice before. That's sort of my primary goal, but I have asked a few of our first-season guests if they would like to come back and do updates.

So we are going to have a few updates. Some situations have changed dramatically from their first episode and so they're willing to share what's been going on. A few of you who've agreed to come back. Of course everyone's welcome to if they would like. But no pressure. I also want to keep the Recommended Resources because I think that's been very valuable.

And here's my note about that. I've had a couple emails from people. Listen, I love you all, listeners, and it's super sweet that you email. It's awesome, okay, but I've had a couple emails from listeners who are like, but I know all these resources already. Can you just find some new ones? So thank you for that.

But I've had a lot of people say, wow, I've never heard of any of these things! And I think, how did you find me? So, I definitely want to keep Recommended Resources because I think it's very, very helpful. But I do want to bring on a couple new segments.

One of them we're going to try out today. How about that? We are going to have an “Ask an Adoptee” kind of segment. So that's what we're going to try out tonight, Carrie. We'll see how that goes. So we're the crowd-sourced wisdom. It's the advice column, adoptee advice column.

And I have been searching for adoptees who are therapists or psychologists or counselors, and I'm working on that so we can have a segment where we can have some practical healing tools straight from someone who's a trained expert but also an adoptee. So I have some leads on that, and I'm hopeful that will be available for season two.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I love it. Fingers crossed.

Haley Radke: So you can be my guinea pig and let's try out “Ask an Adoptee” with Carrie.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Can we have a little music?

Haley Radke: I know, I have to find a transition.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: No, it's okay. I like it.

Haley Radke: So I had someone message me privately on Facebook, and this person is a first parent. Here is the question:

“If there was something you could have gotten from your birth parents as a young teen, what would it be? Is there anything I can do now for them to lessen their trauma? I tell them any chance that I can that I love them and that they are one of the best things that ever happened to me, that my whole extended family can't wait for the day they can be a part of our gang. And then, I'm so sorry for relinquishing. How much I wish I could go back and change it. Is there anything I'm missing? What would've helped you when you were a young teen?”

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It sounds like from the letter that the first parent is reaching out and really trying to soften the impact of that traumatic wound being acted out in the teen years, which are going to be hard anyway. And my gut feeling, just based on me being from a closed adoption and not wanting to be different, is I'm not sure I'd want to hear any more about it. I just wonder if it's so sincere and so heartfelt that this first parent wants to share love and be welcoming. But it feels almost too much in a way that it feels like pressure for this teen to let the parent know: It's okay, I get it. The yearning in this first parent's letter is so clear to me. My little triggers that worry about how everyone's feeling felt very pressured. I get where she's coming from, but I still feel the pressure.

Haley Radke: That's so wise, Carrie, because that's how I felt when I received it. Oh my gosh, I have to give a perfect answer because I can fix the situation. And we can't give you the perfect answer. It sounds like you're already doing everything you can and easing up a little, I think, is the sense that we're kind of getting. Maybe ease up a little bit.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Especially if they're a teen, I wouldn't even make a show of easing up. You know, just psychically, drawing your heart back a little. And just knowing that those wounds are in place. There's no lessening of them.

Haley Radke: This first parent likely has told their relinquished child already that they love them, they're here for them. We're all ready to welcome you. That child will remember those things. So you don't necessarily need to say it every time.

If my dad told me something like that, I would remember it forever and hold onto it and it's there, imprinted forever. All of those good seeds that you've been sowing in your child about how much you love them, they're there. Just a light sprinkling of water every once in a while is probably good.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yes. And lots of space because I think one of the things we heard in a lot of interviews so far was just how there wasn't space for unpleasant feelings or reactions about the adoption experience for the adoptee. There just wasn't room for that.

Several different people mentioned that the parent had said, well, it doesn't matter to me and then didn't give room for the adoptee to have their feelings. So just having that space to know that they can feel however they want about it, and that you're not just waiting it out until they're happy, you know? You're loving them just as they are where they're at. And that's okay too.

You know, the other advice that popped into my mind was Mary Anna King talking about how her mom would write just the quickest little thing: “Just got home from work, thinking of you, love Mom.”

Haley Radke: Yes, and she saved those all those years.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yeah, it wasn't a big production, but it was just a constant stitching together, I think, keeping the presence alive.

Haley Radke: That's a great thought. Remembering that having those little tokens, it is something physical, too, to come back to. Very good.

So I guess, Carrie, it's your turn to ask me the question.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I just want to say, I am so excited to have on the show today our host, Haley Radke, who's a fellow adoptee. Welcome, Haley!

Haley Radke: Thank you. I'm so pleased to be here.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I am too. It has been fun to hear little bits of your story, but I am hoping, if you're up for it, that you will give it to us as one whole story and not just as a little aside.

So, whatever you're up for, tell us about your adoption story.

Haley Radke: Okay, so I was born in 1983 in Edmonton, Alberta, which is where I live now. And I was relinquished immediately at birth and adopted 11 days later. My adoptive parents were elementary school teachers and they were infertile and they had been married for 13 years when they adopted me. My dad was 40 and my mom was 38, and they'd waited seven years to adopt me. They started their teaching career in Northern Alberta, and when I say northern, it's just a couple hours from the Northwest Territories border, a northern rural town. In fact, our town, to get to it you could either go in the summer, there's a ferry to cross the river. And in the winter you could cross an ice bridge.

Ice bridge. Yeah, I said ice bridge. Or it would add another hour and a half to the drive to the town if that was out. So because it was so remote, they actually moved down to Central Alberta so that they could have social workers come and do the home studies and all of the things that adoptive parents are required to do before they're eligible to adopt.

So you could say they were very serious about adopting and desperately wanted a child. I was relinquished right at birth. I think that was the plan all along for my birth mother. They took me home after 11 days, and when I was three, they moved back up to the remote community that I grew up in and that they had started their careers in.

And then I later on moved back down to Edmonton to go to university. I got my degree in psychology. Big surprise to everyone who's listening, I'm sure. I have my BA in psychology and then a double minor. I minored in sociology and religion and theology. Yeah, that's where I met my husband and that's where we live now.

Anyway, what I've had during my growing-up years was very sparse bits and pieces of information. I knew that my birth mother was young, and so I always imagined that, you know, she was a teenager and whatever went along with that. I guess, I didn't truly know any specific details until I was 18 and I requested my non-identifying information, which had her age. She was 15 and my birth father was 17. Yeah, very young. And so she chose to relinquish and that's kind of all I had in the non-identifying information. I have it here, so you'll hear some pages rustling if I grab it. I had a little bit of medical history and a couple personal details.

Yeah, that's when I found out that I had 11 days where I was in the hospital. When I found that out, I started wondering, oh my goodness, I was alone for 11 days, essentially. And that's always been a really hard thing to think about. Especially now that I have kids, it's very hard to picture a child being alone in hospital.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I didn't share in my story the first time, but I have that history as well. I think I was 10 days in the hospital before being placed in a foster family for two weeks and then placed with my adopted family and learning that bit of my history was so saddening.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that image is not a happy one.

So in my non-identifying information, I got some pieces of information about my birth mother that finally made her real, and I just want to read a couple of them to you: She's shy. Doesn't like crowds, is considerate, reliable, and dependable. She enjoys reading. That was one I just grasped onto. Oh my goodness! She's just like me.

And then there's some information about my dad, which later on when he read this, there's some things that aren't true. So again, I had this and, of course, assumed everything was correct, but it wasn't. I had a preconceived notion about my birth dad because of this non-identifying information, and that was a lie for all those years.

So, you know, you see these official forms and you just assume everything is accurate, but that's not the case. So yeah, that's when I was 18 and later in 2004 the Alberta government opened the records and I didn't know that until 2005.

And so that's when I requested my official records and I got my records. They have my birth mother's full name, her birthdate, the address that she was living at when she relinquished. And I have my letter that I wrote to that address.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Wow.

Haley Radke: So, sorry, the sound is going to be super bad today because I have all these papers, but I'll just read this one little section here:

“Recently, the adoption records have become open and I requested the release of my adoption information. In this information, I found the name of my birth mother, et cetera. Also in this information was the home address of et cetera. I checked the phone book and was amazed as I saw there was still someone by the same last name at this very address and phone number.”

So I read this tonight and I laughed so hard because I don't have a phone book anymore. But in 2005 I had a phone book and I wrote this letter and I think I was very hopeful. I can read it to you, if you'd like.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Sure, please. How long do you think it took you to craft this letter? How long did you work on it? Was it easy to write or did you labor over it?

Haley Radke: I don't remember. My guess is that I labored over it because when I used to blog, it took me a while to find the perfect phrase for things. And so I'm sure I did. I guess I'm thinking that because of Maeve's story and Liz Prato’s and their thoughts about crafting these perfectly worded documents to not scare off.

And you'll see that. You'll see that when I read this. So I'm just going to say “Smith” for the last name.

“Dear Smith family, I'm not sure what it would be like to receive this letter. It's actually kind of surreal for me to be sitting here and writing it.”

Okay, how funny is that? It's surreal, right? I know. See, I'm laughing inside. I'm crying. It's hard. Bringing out these things is hard, but anyway, “It's actually kind of surreal for me to be sitting here and writing it and just know that I'm not writing to disrupt lives or your family. I have purely loving intentions of finding my other family.”

“My name is Haley and I'm now 22 years old. My first given name was Ashley Amber Smith, and I was born on August 22, 1983, at the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Edmonton and subsequently adopted by loving parents.”

And then I go into the records are open, et cetera. I was hoping that I could somehow be connected with (and then I say her name) and I give my mailing address and my email address.

“I would like to have first contact through a letter or email. Then if we both have the desire to talk on the phone or in person, the other contact information could be shared. I don't want to put any pressure on either party, and I feel like an initial phone contact might be too much too soon. If your family decides that you do not want to connect with me at this time, I would still really appreciate an email or letter stating this, so I would not be left apprehensively waiting for too long.”

“Also, if I have the wrong address or the wrong family, please let me know this too. Thank you for responding to my request. I'm eager to hear from you. Sincerely yours, Haley Radke.”

So, yeah, I was 22 and I was just doing my very best not to scare and not to put too much weight on it. I mean, I can read that, you know, in here.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: So, yeah, you feel so much with that letter, just the caution and the “I am a completely normal, non-threatening person. You have no reason to fear me.”

Haley Radke: I am not gonna murder you or to ask for money. I don't know why that is. Why there's some mythology about adoptees just wanting to reunite for money. Or if we're just kind of making that up in our heads. I don't know.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Maybe it's the self-projected fear. I don't know. I think it is there though.

Haley Radke: Who knows? So I sent that letter and I remember sitting at my desk. I used to work at a youth emergency shelter here in the city. At the time I was just part-time and, yeah, I was at my desk and my desk was right outside the executive director's office and she was so sweet. She was adopted as well, and we had talked about it sometimes. I don't remember if I had told her that I was searching or not. Probably it must have come up, anyway, so she's working at her desk and mine was right outside her office, and I got an email from my maternal grandfather. At work. I have that for you too:

“Dear Haley, we got your letter this morning but have not had the opportunity yet to speak to your birth mom in person. She's married, lives in Edmonton and will be visiting us here on Saturday. We decided not to discuss your letter with her by phone for obvious reasons. Your grandmother and I both hope her instinct will be the same as ours, but we can't speak for her. Hope you don't think it's presumptuous of us after all this time to refer to ourselves as your grandparents. I also won't preempt her with the details of her, your family, because I hope she will do so herself very soon. In the unhappy event that she decides not to meet you, I hope you'll keep that option open for us.

And then he signs his name and in parentheses, has granddad. Then “PS, I was told not to email you until after we spoke to her, but think I've stayed in the background about 22 years too long.”

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, wow. What was going through your mind when you got that email from him?

Haley Radke: It's all I ever wanted. It's perfect. And you know that last line? “Stayed in the background 22 years too long.” And what that meant to me. You read so many things into that, right, and what I read into that was he maybe wanted to keep me, he didn't have a part in the decision. I read hopeful things into that.

So I was celebrating and I remember asking Deb, come read this! Oh my gosh, I just freaked out, you know? It was wonderful. And then I waited. But I think this email may have come very fast. I don't recall exactly if it was the day after I mailed my letter or two days. It was that fast. It was like, bam. Canada Post was on the ball delivering that letter, I'm sure.

So that's September 15th, and the next email I get again is from him and it's September 18th. It's from my grandfather again. The subject is Delays, delays. And so in it, he kind of outlines why they haven't told her yet and some of those circumstances, but then he gives me a family history.

It's a couple pages long. He sends me photos and some pictures of even his parents. There's this big section about family history. And so, again, every word I just, you know, hung on to. And then in the end of it, he says:

“Needless to say, keep this lot under your hat. I grudgingly grunted assent to the principle of keeping my nose out of things until she (my birth mother) started the ball rolling. I, however, am the impulsive, impatient one, while my wife lets the world unroll as it is intended to. Needless to say, we are both agreed in principle to engineer a soft landing for her in hope that we don't panic her. I am firmly of the belief that your surfacing is the best thing that has happened to this family. I look forward to meeting you and to introducing you, and I don't want to screw up either you or the opportunity.”

These are all so beautiful words that I just held onto. It was perfect, right? It was just perfect.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It's so sweet how he thinks he needs to stay out of the way, but he can't hold himself back. He's so excited in these letters.

Haley Radke: And I just want to be wanted. I still want that, right?

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Of course.

Haley Radke: Okay, so that was the 18th and so this is the very next day. So this is when I get my first email from my birth mother:

“Dear Haley, I received your letter today and it has brought me great joy. Thank you. You can't imagine how happy and relieved I am to know that you are happy, healthy, and well. I have always wanted to know you. Rather than disrupt my family, you have brought me and my family great joy. This without even meeting you. I am here for you in any capacity you may wish. That is I welcome contact on your terms. Any terms. I'm excited to see you if and when you are ready. I am completely open to you. Ask me any questions you have.”

Then she gives her phone number and her address. And here's why I mentioned before my degree, her minor is sociology as well, and then she wraps up with:

“Please forgive me if I write stiltingly. I'm overwhelmed and so very, very happy. Your letter is so beautifully written. Your kindness and maturity shines through every word. I'm so very proud. Best wishes.” And then she signs her name.

I'm reading this to you and I'm tearing up.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: She hits every button without belaboring anything. It's whatever you need, any terms, I'm here. Couldn't ask for more!

Haley Radke: Yes. And so, I picture the perfect reunion. In this time, I'm still finishing up my degree so I'm in university. I'm already married. Because I'm taking psychology, I am researching everything academic I can get my hands on about adoption reunion. And there was not very much available at that time.

There's a lot more now, but still it's not great. When I look for academic articles, it's not great. Anyway, I remember reading that a lot of reunions fail. We struggled with this, I think, Carrie, in our first interview, getting those exact percentages right. I still don't know, sorry.

But there's a lot of reunions that fail and I remember reading these things and I'm like, oh gosh, but it can't be our reunion because, look, they want me, they want to get to know me. So we're gonna be okay. I thought that from the beginning: It's all going to be fine.

So I had four months with her.

I remember our first meeting was very soon after this email. It could have been like the next day. It was very fast. She lives in my city. Nick drove me there. My husband Nick and I met her and her husband.

I remember her opening the door, and she's very petite, actually, like my adoptive mom. I'm 5’9”. I'm definitely heavy and I've always been very sturdy. So that part I was like, oh, okay. So physically we're not the same, but we have the same color hair.

I was desperately looking for similar facial features and things, but I don't know if I could really point those out to you now. I have more similarities with one of my bio half-sisters on my dad's side. So that's kind of where I see the physical similarities now.

I brought baby pictures for her. I brought a wedding picture for her. I don't remember anything of what we talked about at all. I remember just not knowing what to say. She's super shy. So am I. Well, not so much anymore. I definitely was then. I'm 33 now.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Was the conversation stilted or was it just awkward because it's so awkward? Were you both not able to talk?

Haley Radke: I remember it being that she and I were very quiet and didn't know what to say, and I remember her husband trying to be a very good host and asking questions and things. He's more outgoing anyway. I think he's an extrovert. And then, of course, my husband Nick, he is super introverted as well. And I don't know that he would've known what to do.

But yeah, I have a picture with her that we took on that day. She looks like a deer in the headlights. There's no other way to describe it. I'm just going to pick it up here. I look happy. And she looks like she's in shock. And now, you know, knowing what I know, I think she was.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: You had an initial meeting and then how did contact continue to unfold? Did you continue meeting or calls or emails?

Haley Radke: We emailed back and forth so much. We’re both writers and all of those feelings were more easily expressed in writing. I'm thinking back on all of these things and I feel so responsible for her stopping contact and that's so dumb. But when I'm thinking of these answers for you, I'm trying to be truthful and honest about it, and I think she wanted more contact than I did. I didn't know that at the time, of course.

But looking back, some of her emails say, “I was anxiously waiting for your response.” And one of them was “I got your voicemail late last night, and it's too early to call now. So I'll email.” And so it's definitely in the honeymoon stage, but I guess I don't think I could handle it all. I don't think I could give her enough.

I remember we went shopping one time on Whyte Ave. in Edmonton, which is a trendy street, lots of boutique stores. And I bought a scarf when we were out. It was the one thing I bought, a black scarf, a knitted wintery scarf with a rainbow edge. I haven't worn it for years and I just donated it a couple months ago. And it was very hard to get rid of because I bought it when I was with her and I only have a couple memories of being with her. So you get attached to those items.

That's one time. I remember another time she came over for lunch because it was just her and I. I made chicken fajitas. That's when I showed her the records. There's a portion in my adoption records where she writes out her reason for relinquishing me, and it's in her handwriting and her signature. I showed it to her and she didn't remember. She had blocked that all out. After I showed that to her, and I could see it was kind of upsetting her, I put everything away.

And I told you she was very petite. I weighed 9.4 when I was born, and she started to tell me about that. She said, I have giant stretch marks because of you. I had internal bleeding. It was a traumatic birth. She was saying these things to me, but she wasn't saying them to me. She was just saying them out loud. That's the only time we ever spoke of that. But I feel guilty.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It's so not fair. How could you be responsible for that? You're not responsible for that. I was also a nine, almost a 10-pound baby with a petite mother, and I know my delivery was traumatic, forceps delivery. And I have often thought that physical trauma, added to the emotional trauma, made her compartmentalize and close down any chances of trying to revisit that.

I'm sorry. It's such a weight. I'm sorry.

Haley Radke: I still have healing to do in these things and that's a moment I won't forget. You know, and again, I'm saying these things, but she didn't know that saying that was going to imprint on me. That's her experience.

Anyway, Nick and I were invited over to her parents' house for dinner one night, and so we went. She and her husband were there. That was bizarre. It didn't go well, I would say. I'm shy. I don't want to say anything. She's shy, doesn't say anything. My maternal grandmother doesn't say much.

My maternal grandfather, though, he's like this larger-than-life person. I remember him trying to be friendly and welcoming and stuff. They had a very European kind of meal. I was like, oh, I don't know if I like this food. I know, I remember that. I remember there was a salad with cold baby shrimp on it. And I remember not liking that at the time.

Then after supper, I guess when we grew up and we had guests over the chatting would happen after dinner. You know, you have dinner and then you sit and visit. And after dinner my birth mother said, okay, well we have to get back to the house because we're painting our cabinets and our kitchen. And I was like, oh, okay. And so that was it.

Nick and I drove home and I was like, oh my gosh, we drove all across the city for that. It was so short and nobody said anything. And I remember thinking that, I don't know if you'd get the sense of this or not, that I'm a very warm person. I'm touchy feely. I like to hug and be close to people and they're not that way. I remember saying to Nick something like, Who would I be if I had grown up there? You know? Because that was her childhood home. And at that time I was feeling very grateful that I was adopted.

I remember emailing her after that and saying most of those things. Not the part that I wish I was adopted. I didn't say that, but I did express that I was surprised that we left right away and things ended. I was probably more direct than I should have been.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It sounds like you were being honest, though, which was you were feeling strong enough to trust her with that.

Haley Radke: I was being very honest. Again, I'm trying to give myself grace here because I'm really hard on myself. I was 22, you know. I was 22. So I was honest. And so that was a little friction there.

And then my grandfather took me out for lunch one day. Actually a few times, I think, he came and we would go across the street. There was a restaurant right across the street from the university I was attending. And we'd visit and stuff, and then when I told my birth mother, she would say, oh, did my mom know that?

And I don't know, that's, you know, between them, like I don't know. And then she'd say, well, I don't think my mom knew that. So there were those kinds of little threads that later I can piece together. But at the time I didn't think anything of it.

We had planned to get together before Christmas. I don't remember if it was a big family dinner thing again, or if it was just her and her husband and me and Nick. But I had exams and stuff and university was busy. And so I remember emailing her and saying, can we do this after Christmas? I think my adoptive parents would've been coming into the city as well for Christmas.

And so she emailed me back. I don't have this one printed out. She said, you've been pretty critical of my family and I don't think we should reschedule right now. Let's just revisit it in the new year. And that's the last thing I ever got from her.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Whoa. It must have just felt like such a slap in some ways. I can't imagine, I mean, it's your story, but it doesn't sound like you were being critical. What was she hearing? Must be something that she felt that brought up a ghost of accusation that you represented. You were just 22.

Haley Radke: I was 22. But, like I said, a lot of these communications were over email and tone is really hard on email. She probably took things harder than I intended. Those words about me being critical of her family, I really think that's why I feel such responsibility for it being over.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Well, from my perspective as a friend, Haley, it just feels like a smoke screen. It does feel to me like other things, her own issues came up, and she saw you through the lens of those issues.

Haley Radke: There were some other extenuating circumstances which I'll protect. I'm trying to really be respectful of their privacy. I always give her that pass. She was dealing with these things and so I understand it's really hard.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Well, the brain understands. The heart has its own logic.

Haley Radke: I knew we were talking about this tonight and I got all these emails out. I hadn't read them for a number of years. And I read the first couple from her, and I just couldn't stop crying because they're all those things that you want to hear.

But now, I read them and I think, these were true in the moment, maybe, but if you really wanted to know me, why did you stop? Since then, I've written her emails, letters. I have had flowers delivered with cards. I've done everything that I think I could do.

A couple years ago I wrote her a series of letters just after coming out of the fog. I wrote to her that now I understand more about birth mothers and now I'm older, and I can, we can, do this better now. And all of the things that I think she would need to hear.

But it's just not enough. Who did I ask? One of the first guests? Maybe it was Maeve?

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Maeve. It was Maeve. What would it take?

Haley Radke: What would it take? Anything. If she called me right now. I would go if she called me right now. You know, we're recording this and it is the middle of the night where you are. But it is midnight here. And I would call, I would go. That desire for connection is never going to go away,

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Haley. I'm sorry.

Haley Radke: Woo. I get to be the one with the most tears. You're welcome. Everyone who wanted to use Kleenex.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, I've been thinking a lot about all these interviews and how the dominant narrative is the giving of a better life. But what is being measured in the better life? It's usually social standing, you know, the single mother or too young mother. Or it's financial, which Mary Anna talked about in her episode.

The fact that we can be so focused on the value of family and then just treat babies like interchangeable widgets. And that there is no repercussion for changing out this widget and putting it in a different family machine.

Haley Radke: Yes. Yeah, so that's my reunion story. My secondary rejection story. I'm not going to share too much about my reunion with my dad and my siblings and his lovely wife. Because though it's only five years old, it's still very fresh for me. And you could tell by my emotions that that wound is still very close to the surface. So I'll save that for another time.

One of the things I've done on my healing journey is that I'm involved in this healing prayer ministry at my church. At the end of sessions, we often give an opportunity for Jesus to speak into the moment and what does he want to say to me about the situation that we've prayed through.

And so, one of the sessions that I've had, I was forgiving my birth mother for relinquishing me. And anyways, the vision that I had was me in that hospital by myself in the bassinet and I can picture the hospital ward and just me as a baby wrapped up in a blanket and just alone. The nurses kind of hustling around and doing other things.

But then I'm not alone and the vision I have is of Jesus being right next to me. He's the one for those 11 days that called the nurses over whenever I needed attention. And that has been the most healing thing for me whenever I think of those 11 days of being alone and not wanted, knowing that he was there. I was getting what I needed.

I constantly come back to that moment, that vision. It's so beautiful knowing that I wasn't alone. And I know that a lot of you aren't believers and I'm so glad that you're listening and I'm so glad we can hear different points of view. I can't express to you how important knowing that has been because it was so ugly to think about being alone. So I don't have to think that anymore.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: As just another aside before we wrap up, I had shared that sorrow in my women's group and also individually with my therapist. And she was so sweet. She said, “But I am guessing there was a really special nurse or somebody who found you and loved on you specifically. Because look how good you turned out. Somebody loved on you.”

Just the idea. And for me, because I'm not Christian, my vision turned to some single nurse who knew my story and just couldn't stand to see a lonely, little baby. And I've created a similar replacement comfort person. And it is hugely soothing.

Haley Radke: Yes. Yeah, for sure.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Is there anything else that we didn't touch on that you want to share?

Haley Radke: Reunion is hard. It's super hard and it was really wonderful at the start. I rode that roller coaster and it was really scary and I would get back on in one second if I was given the opportunity.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Well first, I just want to thank you for being brave and sharing your heart. And it's just hard. I'm sorry. But if for nothing else, for another “me too” story, I also prepared one recommended resource just because I love that part of the show.

Haley Radke: Well, that's great because I do have some resources for people to take them through our little hiatus until season two in the new year.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Awesome. The resource I was really psyched to share with you is Jeanette Winterson who has this really wonderful essay on her website called “Adopted…Who am I?” It's three pages, so I won't read the whole thing, but she says:

“Adoption is the changeling child. Your birth mother had no idea what she was giving away. Your adoptive mother has no idea what she's getting. Love is not the problem. Adoption isn't a love problem. It's an identity issue. Who are you? Where are you from? Where do you belong? Every mirror you look into is a magic mirror of a kind because you hope to see a deeper reflection of yourself. You won't look like your new parents or the rest of the family, no matter how much they love you. You are the oddity and the angle. It isn't straightforward to be different from the very beginning, but you are.”

I'm going to read the next paragraph, too, because this is what was reminding me of it. She says:

“Adopted children are self-invented because we have to be; a crucial part of our story is missing and violently like a bomb in the womb. The baby explodes into an unknown world, only knowable through a story of some kind. I realize that's how we all live the narratives of our lives. But adoption drops you into the story after it has started. It's like reading a book with the first few pages missing. It's like arriving after curtain up. The feeling that something is missing never, ever leaves you, and it can't, and it shouldn't because something is missing. But the missing part, the missing path can be an entry as well as an exit, an opening, as well as a void. You will just have to make it up as you go along.”

And then it goes on for another two pages. It is fantastic. But that bit where she says, I realize that's how we all live the narrative of our lives, but for us it's like reading a book with the first few pages missing.

Haley Radke: I'm going to say that you are the queen of metaphors. I'll never forget the one about pushing a balloon or a beach ball beneath the water, you know? And how it just explodes out. Like you can't shove it down. Talking about opening up the feelings door, right?

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Right. I think I must have read that. That one I'm pretty sure I can't claim, but, boy, is that powerful, right?

Haley Radke: Whatever, you remember it. I heard it from Carrie first. So good.

What I have brought for you today is all podcasts. So you can fill your empty Adoptees On space with these other shows. As long as you come back for season two, then it's okay.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Already subscribed. We're good.

Haley Radke: That's awesome. My first recommendation is the podcast called The Rambler, and it's hosted by Mike McDonald and he is an adoptee. He is adopted from Korea, I believe, and his show is all conversations with international adoptees or transracial adoptees. So they're all around an hour, maybe a little longer. And because Mike is an international adoptee himself, he has great insight into what it's like to go back to your country of origin and try and reconnect with lost culture. I found it really fascinating.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: How often does he put out an episode?

Haley Radke: He puts out new shows every single Sunday. So your feed can be full and I have not yet caught up. There's a ton.

The next podcast I have to recommend for you is called the Indiana Adoptee Network News, and it's hosted by Pam Croskey.

Pam is the president of the Indiana Adoptee Network. She has about a dozen shows out with lots of different adoptees. It's hosted, I think, by Blog Talk Radio, so it sounds like a phone call between two friends, and she will often ask them about books they might have published or different things like that.

I think Pam is a fellow adoptee, obviously. I don't exactly know what her publishing schedule is. She's been posting a little more lately.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Cool. Is there a third? It sounds like you may have a third.

Haley Radke: There is. The last one is brand new and it's from Canada. It's called Out of the Fog.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I found that one.

Haley Radke: Yes. It is hosted on CKUT, which is, I think, a university station in Quebec. And they have a new episode on the first Friday of every month. And right now they have just two shows out and they're excellent. They're about half an hour and they're wonderfully produced.

They do interviews with a couple different people. They have a specific topic that they focus on for the show. Very worth your while. I'll post links for that in the show notes. Those are three adoptee podcasts to get you through the hiatus of Adoptees On. But of course, we hope you will subscribe and come and hear us again when we start back up in the new year.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Haley, I just wanna say how much I love you.

Haley Radke: Aw, I love you too.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Seriously, this has been really life-changing for me. So thanks for the space.

Haley Radke: Well, you're so welcome. Thanks for listening to me bawl.

Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I'm honored to hear your story.

Haley Radke: You can find Carrie on Twitter at CCM Felt Hats, and my personal Twitter account is at Haley Radke. We'll have links to everything we talked about today on our website, adopteeson.com. You can chat with us on Twitter or Instagram at Adoptees On, and our Facebook page is facebook.com/adopteesonpodcast.

Today, would you share our show with a friend? Pick your favorite episode of season one and tell just one person about it. Carrie wanted me to ask you to tell your therapist about our show. So if you think your therapist might enjoy our podcast, please let them know which episode was most meaningful for you.

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In the meantime, thanks for listening. Let's talk again soon.

12 Davis

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/12

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season One, episode 12: Davis. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today we'll be talking to Davis Peticolas, a fellow adoptee who shares his story about coming out of the adoption fog when he was 50 years old.

Davis outlines some of his deeply personal struggles that can be traced back to adoption trauma as the root cause. As always, we'll wrap up with some recommended resources for you.

I'm so pleased to introduce to the show today, Davis Peticolas. Thanks for joining us today, Davis.

Davis Peticolas: Glad to be here.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. I would love it if you would just start with a little bit about your adoption story for us.

Davis Peticolas: Well, I was born December 6th, 1941, which is one day before Pearl Harbor. My birth mother was 27. My birth father was 41. My adoptive dad was a doctor and a doctor friend of his arranged it. My dad's brother (twin brother) was a lawyer, so he was the one that did the legal work. It's not through any organization, or foundation, or Catholic charities, or anything like that.

I went to my adoptive family at one week. My adoptive family–-there was an older brother who was a bio child. He was two-and-a-half years older. My mother had (my adoptive mother) had had eclampsia with his birth and almost died. So that was the reason they couldn't have another child, and so they adopted then.

Haley Radke: Would you say 1941—is that even pre-Baby Scoop?

Davis Peticolas: I do not know. Of course, adoptions were happening. I can't tell you how often it happened.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's what I was curious about. I wonder how common that was.

Davis Peticolas: It's clearly… It was done.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So do you know any of the circumstances behind your relinquishment?

Davis Peticolas: I do not. My birth mother and father had died by the time I searched and identified them, so I have not been able to garner any information as to really what was going on in their lives.

Interestingly enough, when I found my birth mother and connected to two half-siblings (two half-brothers)---When I met them, they gave me quite a bit of information and some pictures. And one of the pictures is a picture of my mother with her mother, and on the back of that picture, it says: “Best mother ever.” And it's dated three months after my birth. And I kind of (in my mind), I say They made up that at this point. And that's kind of why it's the “Best mother ever.”

I've always had this feeling that my grandmother, (who I never, of course, knew who it was)... I had a connection there, and I never quite understood that. But I've always felt it. I don't know whether that makes any sense or not.

Haley Radke: Sure it does, just have a photo of them. That's something.

Davis Peticolas: Well, that's true.

Haley Radke: Okay, so tell me how did you search and just, and come to this realization that you found them both and they were already passed away?

Davis Peticolas: I was 50 before I really crashed and defogged. My life wasn't working. And my marriage was in trouble. And we started counseling and I was lucky enough to have a counselor who was aware of adoption. There was a man and his wife who ran this group, and the wife was adopted, so she knew what the issues were.

And so very quickly after starting counseling, I was asked to look at my adoption issues. And I very brazenly said, “I don't think there's any snakes under that rock.” And I jokingly say, “I was right. They weren't snakes, they were bloody dragons.”

That's when I began to defog, and shortly after that I began to search. I have quite a few skin problems and my dermatologist said, “You really need to know this family history.” And so he very willingly wrote a letter to ask to open my adoption file. So I had their names, and my birth mother's name is very common (both first and last name are very common), and I just got nowhere.

My father's name was rather unusual and I could very easily trace him. He had died about four years before that, so I floundered on for a while, not getting anywhere fast. And then, the state of Texas (in 2000…I'm guessing 2004, or something like that) allowed adoptees to get their birth certificates if they knew their parents' names.

Now that's kind of a catch for most people, but luckily I could. So I was one of the first to get my OBC from Texas. And on that, there was her Social Security number. And for 1941, that was a little unusual. It took almost, maybe a day to find that she had died, given her Social Security number.

So, she had died in Tennessee, so I wrote and got her death certificate. And that's where I saw that I had some half-brothers. You know, I can't imagine the difficulty of calling your birth mother or birth father, because it was so hard to call my half-brothers. I would call and his daughter would answer, (well, I couldn't talk to her).

I would call; he wouldn't be there. And each time I had to call, I would just have to screw up my courage just to make the call. But finally, I connected and I think I said something like, “I think we share a mother.” And there was dead silence and I thought, Oh my God what's gonna come back? And he said, “Just a minute, I have to change rooms.”

And he said, “I had an inkling about you, that on my birth certificate, it says there was a previous birth. And I asked our mother about it, and she would never answer.” So he had a clue. So I met my two half-brothers. They grew up in an alcoholic family and have their own issues. We are not particularly close, although we do talk a little bit. The younger one looks somewhat like me, and we seem to have connected a little better than I have with the older one.

So we talk a bit. I can't say that it's close. I mean, you know, yes, we share genes, but we have no shared history, and so it's just awkward. I didn't find what I wanted from searching. I didn't get what I wanted from searching, but I am so glad that I did, because I have now identified both my birth mother and my birth father.

Just yesterday, I connected to a living relative on my father's side, which blew my mind. And he sent me photos and documents and I was just—I'm still blown away.

Haley Radke: What does that feel like, when you see those pictures?

Davis Peticolas: I'm slow to understand that. I see ‘em, and my first reaction is, Who are these people? I don't immediately feel a connection to them.

I think there will be more of a connection over time. Obviously, I don't know whether I'll ever meet this particular individual, but… The people he has sent me photos of are long dead, but still I'm glad to have them.

Haley Radke: Let's go back to: you’re 50 years old and your therapist is asking you about your adoption issues. And you said, “There's dragons under there, not just snakes.”

Can you unpack that a little bit?

Davis Peticolas: Any adoptee who's gone through defogging, you know, it's the unfolding and seeing how being adopted has affected you. Most of us have been in denial for most of our lives. Some can defog early, but I couldn't.

I was consumed by shame and I had the belief that I am a mistake. Not that I made a mistake, I am the mistake. I also disassociated. And I didn't know that word or even what it meant, but literally, I divided my mind and my body so that I did not feel. So I shut down all my feelings, and the cost of shutting down my feelings was that my hands peeled.

Of course, I didn't know that was the reason. I just knew that my hands peeled, and I went to doctors, and I used lotions, and I slept with cotton gloves. And my hands peeled, and I think it started somewhere around age five. And it did not stop until about age 50, when I had a (what felt to me) like a nervous breakdown.

And what it actually was, is I finally allowed my feelings to be felt in my body. I was at work. I had closed the door to my office and I was crying. I literally didn't know what was happening. Finally, I called my therapist and very patiently, I was told, you know, “This is hurt. This is anger. This is fear.”

And it was like I was learning to talk to my body. And as I began to allow my feelings to be felt in my body, my hands stopped peeling. For something that I had lived with for 50 years, that was pretty amazing to me. And I thought, Man, this is big stuff. I thought I was cured. And of course I wasn't.

I was just making the next step, but that was part of… Later, when I was obsessed with trying to figure out Why in the world am I as crazy as I am? Why do I act so strangely? Why do I run from situations that I should be running towards?, I read The Primal Wound. I read much of the literature that was available in the early 90s.

I guess I struggle some with the primal wound, with the idea that Well, I don't feel like I'm wounded. How do I know I'm wounded? I kept wanting to understand just why am I so screwed up? I'm very capable in many ways, but in relationships and that kind of stuff, I screwed up. The Paul Sunderland video was important to me because it said, “Look, adoptees can get PTSD.” And that kind of resonated with me, not that what I had compares to what people in the military go through, but there was something there that caused my brain to change.

And then I read a book by Bessel van der Kolk, who's an expert on trauma. The one line out of the book that I just dropped the book on was, “People who have trauma often disassociate.” And while I have no memory of trauma, I'd lived disassociation for 50 years. So I knew that. I knew that had happened to me, so maybe the trauma was real.

And then there's another book that just lays it all out. It's not really about adoption, but it's about early trauma, trauma that occurs when the individual is in what they call the developmental stage (basically birth to two years, I think). And they started identifying some of the problems these people would have. And damn, I had every one of them. Every one of 'em.

And so I finally accepted that the primal wound was real, that I really was damaged, that it had affected me. That helped me understand—did not change me, but helped me understand why I acted like I act (like I do).

Haley Radke: If you're comfortable with that, would you mind just saying some of those things that you identified with in that book that had said that, “These are things that people with trauma have, often”?

Davis Peticolas: Sure! Well, the first thing is: Disconnected from physical and emotional self. That's the dissociation that I lived for 50 years. So that's one.

[Two]: Difficulty relating to others. (Yeah, I have that.)

[Three]: Difficulty knowing what I need. You know, I'm 74 years old and I've made it through life, and yet it's very hard for me to know if I'm hungry, if I'm full from eating. If I'm tired, I sometimes will drive myself to exhaustion (when I really should have, you know, hours ago, taken a break).

[Four]: Feeling our needs do not deserve to be met. That's a big one. I don't deserve to be loved. I don't deserve to be able to ask somebody to help me.

And that leads to the next one [Five]: Feeling we cannot depend on anybody else. I struggle asking people for help. I try way too hard to go it alone, and yet I had people in my life that would've loved to help me. And yet, I have a hard time just asking.

[Six]: Feeling I always have to be in control. I don't know what the hell would happen if I'm not (and I guess generally I probably am not). But I still have this feeling that, Man, I have to drive the ship.

[Seven]: Difficulty setting limits.

[Eight]: Difficulty saying no.

[Nine]: Difficulty integrating heart and sexuality.

[Ten]: and My self-esteem is based on my performance.

So those are the 9 or 10 things. Every one of them, they lay out in this book and say, “If you experienced developmental trauma, you may have any or all of these.” Well, I got 'em all. And again, having them and understanding why I do what I do is great. It kinda allows me to check off a box saying, Okay, I understand. But that does not mean I can check off the box that I have changed. I have to actively do things differently.

I spent a life, basically, hiding in the corner. In a social situation, if you look to the corner, you'd probably see me. So I have to push myself not to go to the corner. I have to push myself to be present and to be heard. I wrote my personal story of adoption with the express idea of, I'm gonna tell it like it was. This is Davis. This is not a facade that he hangs up in front of him for people to see. This is who I am.

And I've tried to share that with people. And it is exhilarating and it's scary. Adoptees seem to understand and people who are not adopted kind of struggle with it. It's hard for people who haven't experienced this to even begin to understand what it's like.

Haley Radke: Did you ever talk about these things with your adoptive brother or your adoptive parents?

Davis Peticolas: Not really. I tried a little bit with my a-mom, but it was not very satisfactory. I didn't really approach the adoption stuff. My parents divorced when I was about 11, and one of the worst days of my life was after that, having to go in front of a judge with my brother. And we had to decide, basically, which parent was more important to us. That was not the question, but that was really what we were answering. And it just tore me apart.

And years later, I tried to talk to my mom about that incident, saying that no child should have to choose between their parents. Her only response was, “You made the right decision.” That was not what I wanted to hear. I wanted to hear, “I'm sorry you had to go through that.” But… So having gotten that answer, I never really tried to go very deep with it. Any of them.

Haley Radke: And how about with your wife? You said you guys were having some issues and that's when you went into therapy...

Davis Peticolas: I have tried to talk with my wife about this. I think she struggles with it, too. And she grew up in an alcoholic home. I think it's hard for her to understand just how devastating (or whatever it is) it is to be adopted. You know, the unicorns and butterflies that most of our societies think about adoption, it's sometimes hard to see what the real reality is.

And I don't even like the word “adoption.” And to adopt means, “to take in and raise as your own.” And what's wrong with that? Nothing, except that to be available for adoption, there had to be severe trauma. And that's ignored. It's not even considered.

I have written several pieces, trying to understand myself, what's going on with me. And I've shared that with my wife, and the last one, I think she understood. I think it's still hard for her, though. So we have more to talk about. We're not done yet.

Haley Radke: Well, I definitely do agree with you that it is adoptees that understand. And it is very hard to express all of the pain (and all of those things) to someone else that hasn't gone through it.

Davis Peticolas: It is almost impossible, I think, for someone who’s not adopted to really understand. And quite frankly, I think for adoptees, it's pretty much impossible to say that they haven't been affected, because they've never really experienced not being affected. It’s… I don't know how to bridge that communication divide, because it really is severe.

Haley Radke: Well, even just adoptees, like yourself in your first 50 years. I mean, it takes a lot for someone to come out of the fog, you know?

Davis Peticolas: That's right.

Haley Radke: And often, there's some big trigger or something. For me, I think it was when I was pregnant with my first child, you know. Like some big life event happens, and then all the feelings get stirred up, and you gotta figure it out.

Davis Peticolas: That's funny. It reminds me—When I defogged, I was in Austin, Texas and I joined a triad group (actually), and was part of a program there. There were two women and myself, and both of them said that when they got pregnant and were going to have a child, that they had to know. They had to search, they had to… Something had to change.

And, you know, I was stubborn. I guess I sailed right through that. From all the adoptees I have known, there's some that can do it before 40. But most of them wait for the midlife crisis, where all our defense mechanisms stop working and we're kinda raw. And that's when we crash. And that's certainly what happened to me.

Haley Radke: So would you mind just talking a little bit about coming on the other side of that? The things that you've done to heal and any positive things that have come out of actually looking at this disconnection from your feelings and your body? And talk a little bit about that?

Davis Peticolas: I became human, is what it means. Without your feelings, I was more computer than person. If you told me a problem, I was Mr. Fix-it. I wasn't about to listen to try to be empathetic with you. So I became real; I became vulnerable. I became, I think, more loving.

I think the process of trying to stop doing the crazy stuff: to stop the hiding out, stop the feeling shame, and feeling that I'm a mistake. That takes some really conscious effort. It's scary, because for so long, I did it the other way. So I don't really know what to expect.

I have been gratified that when I have been brave enough to let people see the real me, they haven't thrown me away. They have embraced me. They have been kind and loving. And so that encourages me to do even more of it, I think.

Haley Radke: Are there any practical exercises that your therapist gave you to work on? I know you said you had written some pieces that were helpful in processing...

Davis Peticolas: I was in therapy for probably four or five years (around, or maybe it was three or four. I don't know...1990). And then I've just, here about five years ago, I started again. And it was interesting. I was lucky the first time, in that I needed a therapist that understood adoptee issues, and I fell into one. This time, I had a guy that was a very good therapist, but didn't have a clue about adoption.

So in a sense, I was educating him, because at least I knew what my issues were. And I trusted him. He was willing to hear, and every so often I would say something and I could see his physical reaction. I know I remember saying, you know, “When my firstborn was born, that for the first time, I saw a blood relative.”

And I, you know, I saw his head jerk back. “Oh my God, I'd never thought of that!,” kind of thing. So it was interesting. He could guide me, but more, I think I knew what I needed. And I knew I needed someone to trust, and I could trust him. So it worked. But in a very real sense, I was teaching him about what it meant to be adopted. And he would readily admit now, that when I started, he was the “rainbows and unicorn” believer.

Haley Radke: I bet there's just tons and tons of therapists, right? That have no clue about the adoptee issues. And so, I imagine there's lots of adoptees that go for counseling and just flounder, because they don't find the root cause of their problems.

Davis Peticolas: Unfortunately, I think that's true. I think if you get a really good counselor and they listen to you, they'll make it through.

And I think if you have defogged, so that, you know (in a sense) just how affected you have been by adoption, then you can lead a therapist (in a sense,) and it'll be alright. But if you haven't defogged, you better get a counselor that knows what adoptees go through.

Haley Radke: Hmm-hmm. So what I had asked is if there were any specific exercises or things that either one of your therapists had suggested to you, to work through some of these things?

Davis Peticolas: Actually, I think… They didn't suggest it, but writing has been a big one for me. Just to put down in words what happened, what my experiences were, what… Somehow that makes them real. I don't know how that works. Writing them and then reading them out loud, there's something about…

This podcast, I hope it has that power. Saying something out loud has a power that's different than something written. Both are important, but... I know sometimes, I have written something and if I start reading it out loud (particularly to someone else), it will hit me with an emotional impact that wasn't there without that. I think having contact with other adoptees has been very healing for me, too. I do it online.

When I was in Austin, I had a group that I could meet with and that was good, too. And I would recommend for any adoptee to find such a group. Sharing our stories is healing. It's powerful. Our society, in general, we've lost the art of talking to people and being real with people.

You know, we're so focused on our cell phones or the TV (or whatever), that while we may think we're communicating, we've lost the real communication of the heart-to-heart stuff. And there's much healing in being able to just say, “This is what happened to me. Ouch.”

Haley Radke: Yes. As an adoptee that has read other adoptees’ blogs who had already been out of the fog and gone before, and I could say, “Me, too.”

Davis Peticolas: Yes, exactly. Exactly. We can see ourselves. Sometimes, I will read what someone else has gone through and my first reaction is, Oh, I'm so sorry he had to do that, go through that. And then I think about it—I experienced that too, and I hadn't even realized it. So it's an eye-opener. We can see what we've really been through, just by hearing other people.

Haley Radke: This has all been so, so good. Thank you. Such valuable insight that you've shared. Is there anything else that you want to say to us about your journey? Or about healing or anything before we do our recommended resources?

Davis Peticolas: Don't stop. Twelve-step programs have a saying that, “If you find yourself going through hell, keep on going.”

And I think that applies to adoptees, too. It is shattering to defog, but don't stop. Keep on going. The only way through is to go through. You can't bury it again. Doesn't work. Believe me, I’ve tried.

Haley Radke: That's so powerful. Wow. Thank you. Oh, Davis, it's been so wonderful talking to you.

And now my resources. Something lighter and…

Davis Peticolas: Good!

Haley Radke: Okay, I’ve got this website that I frequent called Adoption at the Movies. I don't know if you've seen it before, but…

Davis Peticolas: No, I haven't.

Haley Radke: It's written by Addison Cooper. He is a licensed clinical social worker, and his bio on the site says that he works in foster care and foster-to-adopt situations. And the website address is adoptionlcsw.com.

And he has hundreds of reviews of movies that are current (some past). And all of his reviews are based on the focus of where adoption might show up, or where an adoptee or someone in foster care might be triggered.

And his reviews, I would say, are more focused to perhaps an adoptive parent or a foster parent who would have the opportunity to have a conversation with their adoptive child or foster child about the movie, situations in the movie (those things, you know, opening up a dialogue).

But for me as an adoptee, I can go there and be like, Ooh, I'm not watching that movie, because it's going to wreck me for days. So it's a great resource to go and just quickly look and see. I was just on Twitter, I think yesterday. Someone I was following was saying, “Oh, adoption is coming up in this TV show I'm watching and now I can't watch it anymore, and...”

And so it was just—that surprise can be a trigger for a lot of us. And so this is an awesome thing for sensitive people (like me) to just check before maybe go see a movie. “Finding Dory” was the one that I was alerted to.

Davis Peticolas: I was thinking of that as you spoke.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So I haven't seen it and I'm kind of sad, because I really did love the first one. So anyway, I really love this website. I've seen other bloggers recommend it, too. I think I maybe first found it on Deanna Schrodes’ blog, Adoptee Restoration.

Yeah, so that's my recommendation. What did you bring to recommend today?

Davis Peticolas: I really recommend that adoptees connect to other adoptees. If you can find a local group where you can meet face-to-face, that's great. If you can't, then there are places on the website. There are some Facebook groups that are available.

I participate in the https://adultadopteesupport.freeforums.net/ (is the front page), and you can click on the forum and get into it (if people are interested).

But the book I would recommend is not about adoption, but it's the one that really talks about developmental trauma and healing. And that's Healing Developmental Trauma: How Early Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image, and the Capacity for Relationship. And it's written by Heller and LaPierre.

It really lays out what happens to us. And I think it's important to understand that it's not enough to understand. That you still have to do the work to change it, but it's a starting place.

Haley Radke: And is that the one that you read that list from?

Davis Peticolas: It is.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I will put a link to that in the show notes, so people can find it. I'm so grateful for your honesty and candor with us. I know that our listeners are gonna find lots of pieces of wisdom and value from it. So thank you.

Davis Peticolas: Well, thank you for having me. I really think that your podcast has and is going to affect adoptees in a very positive way.

Haley Radke: If you have more questions for Davis or would like to thank him for sharing with us, you can find him on Facebook.

Davis recorded his excellent essay, “Am I Blood or Am I Water?,” and you can find this free download on our website, along with the show notes with links to everything we've discussed (adopteeson.com).

Come and chat with us on Twitter or Instagram @adopteeson and on Facebook, just search Adoptees On podcast. Thank you to everyone who connects with me and our guests on social media. It's a great encouragement to them to hear from you, and know how their stories have impacted your journey.

Today, would you take a moment to share this episode with an adoptee or adoption support group you are a part of? Perhaps your community would benefit from listening to these episodes and discussing them together.

Thanks for listening. Let's talk again, soon.

Small Radke: Thanks for listening to Adoptees On!

Haley Radke: Thanks, honey. Okay, you go play.