70 Stephani - When Two Adoptees Marry

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/70

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported.

You are listening to Adoptees On. The podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is season four, episode nine, Stephani. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today we talk about what happens when two adopted people get married to each other. Stephani is candid with us about her relationship, some of what triggers her and her husband and how that can escalate quickly. She also shares about how IFS, that's Internal Family Systems Therapy, has been a game changer for their relationship. If you're interested in learning more about IFS, the episode just prior to this is all about that therapy model and why it's so effective for adoptees in particular. Stephani and I wrap up with some recommended resources, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen [00:01:00] in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On Stephani Harris. Welcome, Stephani.

Stephani: It's a pleasure being here. Thank you.

Haley Radke: I'm really excited to talk with you today and get to hear more of your story. And we're, I especially asked you here because you are adopted yourself and you're also married to an adoptee, so we are going to focus in on that relationship.

But why don't we start out, would you share your story with us?

Stephani: Sure, I will. I was adopted as a newborn, straight from the hospital in Kentucky, near Knox, Kentucky. My adoptive parents was acquainted with my birth mother. They didn't know one another very well, but they knew of one another and only thing they knew was she was going to put me in the Catholic charities maybe. The [00:02:00] orphanage services relinquished me to them. And then it was like a last minute decision that they had found out about me and they actually just came to the hospital, picked me up, and took me home. And my my dad always has a lot of humor with saying that it only costs $75 for the attorney. It was a private adoption that, and she also lived in the same small town where I was adopted.

So I was raised where my birth mother and seven of her children, which would've been my half siblings, lived within seven to 10 miles apart. [00:03:00] That I never knew until I was approximately nine or ten years old that I was adopted. I had no idea. I believe it was meant to be an open adoption, but it was kind of a secret open adoption.

Haley Radke: Did your birth mother parent those other siblings?

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: So you have a bunch of older siblings?

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Stephani: Seven.

Haley Radke: Wow.

Stephani: I was the youngest one and I, it was very complicated, but it is part of adoption, which is complications. A lot of complications, so.

Haley Radke: So you found out you were adopted when you were nine or ten, and did you find out your connection to her in your town in these siblings?

Stephani: Yes. It was a quite traumatic event actually. I was raised around my cousins, but I had no idea they were my cousins. I thought they were just my best friends and they invited [00:04:00] me to their family reunion. And when I got there, it was actually my birth mother's home. And it was my siblings, half siblings and my cousins. And I recall sitting at the picnic table talking about my mom and dad and I remember someone saying that's not your mom, and you don't even have a dad. These are actually your siblings, your cousins, and here's your birth mother. So it was very difficult. I believe I was in shock and I did not want to be there. I knew that. I was very scared and confused, of course.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. So what happened next? Did you talk to your parents about what happened?

Stephani: Yes. [00:05:00]

Haley Radke: Did you ask them like what is going on here?

Stephani: Yeah, so I remember going home and telling them what happened. I think they already knew what happened before I even, I believe the news hit before I even arrived home what happened. So when I got home, all I remember is my mother crying, very upset, and my father upset, and I was shut down. They didn't blame me, but I felt as though I did something wrong. So there was a seed planted that this is a secret that I'm adopted. It's a secret that I must be special because that's all they told me was they said you know we've always told you you were adopted because we told [00:06:00] you you were special. So that was their way of saying that I was adopted by telling me that I was special which was, is very very different. Of course, I was born in 1969, so this was in the mid seventies. They didn't have resources, of course, to understand adoption, nor did they ever have any type of counseling on, for an adopted child. Or how to tell me. So I guess they felt as though I would eventually find out and they would take care of it. But I shut down at that moment in time and I felt as though I didn't have a voice. It wasn't intentional, but that is the way it happened. No one intended to hurt me. They just wanted, they felt as though I needed to know the truth. But there was pain involved, of [00:07:00] course.

Haley Radke: Okay. So the person that disclosed to you that you were adopted said “You don't have a father.”

Stephani: Correct, yes.

Haley Radke: They didn't know who your birth father was. How did you come to discover that information?

Stephani: I met my birth mother. I took her out to eat. I didn't meet her then of course, we had a relationship. I tried to get closer with her and my siblings and I had a very difficult time connecting with her and my half siblings. All of them, and I wasn't sure why. I just felt as though I didn't look like them. I didn't connect with them. It wasn't nothing negative that I felt about them. It's just I felt as though I didn't belong with them. So that was very difficult I'm sure for them. They felt rejected by me, [00:08:00] and so they don't really think of me highly to this day, I believe, most of them don't.

So when I took my birth mother out for dinner, you know I had asked her who my birth father was, his identity, and her reaction was well the reason I relinquished you. She didn't say relinquished. But the reason why I basically gave you up for adoption is because I found out that your father is not a white man. So I was very confused, of course, again, and shocked. Part of me wasn't super shocked, but most of myself was, you know I was shocked again. She had his name, she gave me his name, and [00:09:00] the search continued on and I was 30 years old.

Haley Radke: So what did you do next?

Stephani: I contacted him. There was a lot of rejection naturally. So I took it upon myself to get a ticket from Kentucky to Reno, Nevada. And I showed up on his doorstep and which I must say I don't recommend. I have another sister, she's seven years older than me, and she went with me for support. So we just went to Lake Tahoe and we enjoyed Lake Tahoe and some outside concerts in Reno.

Haley Radke: Have you ever been in touch with him then, like past that? Like in person?

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Stephani: Yes, that's correct. Yes. I have. Once I went home, I wrote him a [00:10:00] letter instead of make another trip to Reno, Nevada or phone calls. I and then he contacted me and then in within a few months I was headed back to Reno and I met him for the first time and I went by myself and it was an amazing reunion for us. It was very private, but he still kept me, of course, at a distance. And he was able to share with me the history of his history and our ancestors. So it it was and I actually felt connected to him. I felt very close to him. Not emotionally, but you know looking in the mirror for many years, you're not knowing who you look like or have a connection with. I was able to look at him and I see that connection very well. And that went [00:11:00] on for several years. We visit him in Reno three or four times total.

Haley Radke: Why don't we shift and why, how can, do you wanna tell us, how did you meet your husband?

Stephani: I came out of a marriage of 15 years, and I was single for, I want to say around four years. So I met my husband at a bar and he was actually a designated driver 'cause I didn't want anyone that drank, did drugs or anything like that. I wanted a nice clean man, and he was very handsome. We connected immediately and then we went out on a date the following day and he told me he was adopted and it was like, it was an instant connection. And then we like got married like seven weeks later.

Haley Radke: Whoa.

Stephani: In which I don't recommend as well.

Haley Radke: Okay.[00:12:00] Wow. I did not know this was a whirlwind. Okay, so you share that you're adopted, you fall in love, you are…

Stephani: In lust.

Haley Radke: Married seven weeks later. Oh, okay. Thank you for correcting me.

Stephani: Fall in lust. Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. So married seven weeks later. And how long have you guys been married?

Stephani: We will be married 12 years, November of this year.

Haley Radke: So A, you say, I don't recommend seven weeks. What does that mean? Did you guys have some bumpy spots?

Stephani: Well we now love each other.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. So that's good.

Stephani: Yes. We now love each other. I believe in the beginning we thought we loved each other, but I believe what we loved was the similarities in our life as being adoptees. Of knowing the feelings of abandonment, [00:13:00] rejection issues, being connected, understanding the loss and trauma of the adoption.

Haley Radke: And so your husband, had he searched, did he know his first parents? Had you guys followed a similar path in that respect as well?

Stephani: No, not at all. He had no desire to know in his. He was a foster child and then he was adopted by his foster parents and he had absolutely no desire to know his biological families. Until I pressured him to find out and there was a mistake on my part. I felt as though I was basically wanting him to feel the type of reunion I had. I wanted him to feel the [00:14:00] same way, but it was too early and he was not ready. Which caused quite a bit of pressure with him, of course. because he wasn't ready to find out.

Haley Radke: With those things that you have in common, the trauma and the rejection issues and I mean to me that looks like a storm is coming. When do you realize like these are the things that brought us together, but this is gonna wreck us?

Stephani: Yes, because I was projecting. Of all of the therapy that I have been through, of years of therapy, of healing, I was projecting that upon him as though he should feel the same way. And he was not feeling that way. He was not ready. So he did find his, his first mother and it went really well. That was just like, I believe four years ago. It went really well in the [00:15:00] beginning, and there's also some similarities with his adoption, it's with mine also that's very very bizarre. When he found his birth mother, he also found out that he was mixed biracial. He had no clue, and he has eight other half siblings.

Haley Radke: Whoa.

Stephani: Yes. So it was very very bizarre and no one knew about him. He was very well kept hidden. And he is three years older than I am, so he was born in ‘66.

Haley Radke: So he didn't know he was biracial and…

Stephani: No.

Haley Radke: You look…

Stephani: His mother is biracial.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay.

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: And so you look, sorry if this is gonna be rude, but you present more white than biracial, right? You can pass for…

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: And then I've seen photos of your husband and he's a lot darker skinned, so that's why it was kind of a…

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: I'm [00:16:00] assuming that's why it was more of a surprise for him.

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Stephani: Very much. Very much so yes.

Haley Radke: And so when you guys are processing this because you found out you're biracial and he finds out his like, what are some of the things that you guys are talking about or thinking about when this is happening?

Stephani: It was a whirlwind then. Because I remember, we remember like going to the courthouse, picking up his adoption records that were released by the judge and we were reading the paperwork and we were like, this is the wrong person because there's no way my husband is biracial. According to the, this must be his brother that was also adopted. This must be the, they have. This has been some confusion. There's no way that this is my husband's adoption records.

So once I [00:17:00] had the name of his first mother, I went researching and I found her within several hours. And I was able to be in contact with her, I believe within a week or so. And then within two weeks he went to visit her and things went well for six to eight months. And then after that there's, he had, he chose to no longer be in contact.

Haley Radke: Okay. So he has this, you know, brief reunion and I mean this is all really big stuff just for one person going through, but you intimately know how this affects an adoptee's psyche. And what is this doing with your relationship? Is it bringing you closer together and more understanding, or is it pushing you apart?

Stephani: Well first of all, I believe as an adoptee and going through therapy, you want to search for the truth and you [00:18:00] want to live in truth and you don't want any type of falseness, lies in your relationships. Whether it's work, friends and of course our marriage.

So we were living in the truth and the truth hurts. So it's, there was a lot of pain for him, in his discovery and I had a hard time understanding it because it was a, he came from a different, there was still some different feelings. It was a different type of trauma and loss. I mean it was just, it was a trauma and loss, but it felt different to him. His reunion felt he had no connection at all, like he felt completely disconnected with them, and he, as though he didn't belong and it made him angry. And there was some false [00:19:00] information given to him, and he didn't want to deal with any type of lies, so he just shut them out. And there's a lot of anger with that.

It's been constant work with us in a relationship to answer your question. We bounce off of one another with our triggers. For an example, if he texts me and I'm at work and I'm really busy, if he doesn't hear back from me, he's concerned that something's wrong. Rejection, abandonment, or something bad happened to me, and the same with me as well. That's a, that's one example. And also we just kind of like bounce off of one of those triggers. With studying IFS therapy, which…

Haley Radke: That's Internal Family Systems.

Stephani: Yes, correct. We have done that for years. That [00:20:00] has really helped in the, it's an excellent adoption therapy and of course individual for your individual therapy as well and for the marriages. So doing that, you go in and you try to understand all of the parts that are inside of us. Our child part, our teen, our critical part, our caretaker, our minimizer. We have all these parts working to protect our child that was lost. That is traumatized from the, of loss, rejection, abandonment issues. So all those parts come out, of course, in any relationship. I believe it's magnified in our relationship because we were being triggered with each other's rejections, abandonment issues, not listening, being heard. You know like, I like to have a voice and I like to be [00:21:00] heard. So I have a hard time like shutting up and getting my point across. I like to repeat to get my point across. So for him, that triggers him because coming from an abusive family that he came from, he was triggered by someone repeating the same thing over and over again. So it doesn't…kind of like fire and ice in a way. So we are working on trying to identify our parts and our triggers and being still to, and listening to our parts. Slowing down. And we're also allowing one another to say hey you know, there you go again. You're like repeating yourself over and over again to get your point across. And I know you wanna be heard, but [00:22:00] it's really like making me want to run and shut down.

Haley Radke: So you're learning just how to say those things out loud to the other person to be understood. And did you, did you learn those techniques in doing IFS together?

Stephani: Yes. Correct. Yes. Doing IFS together. Yes.

Haley Radke:I will have aired an episode, a healing series episode about Internal Family Systems before this show goes up. So I'll link to that in the show notes. But the therapist did a really good job of explaining a little bit more in depth about that. But I think it's so interesting that you are doing that work, on yourself, but also together. I mean that's amazing. So you're, you know sometimes I feel like a lot of us who are in therapy and we're sort of working on ourselves and we're hopefully moving forward, we often are leaving a partner behind that is stuck and maybe not working on their stuff. And so [00:23:00] the fact that you're both doing this together, I mean that's really incredible and it's a good example for us, I really believe.

Stephani: Yes, it is. Yes, it's, it is a work in progress. It really, it's a daily work in progress. We're gonna make it, but there's times where we are like, whoa. It's like it's tough being married to an, marriage is tough, period. And then when you have two adoptees that have maximum rejection and abandonment issues and neither one was hurt as a child, it is very difficult because you're constantly bouncing off of one another's emotions and then also slowing down learning how to react is really important.

Haley Radke: Can you give us an [00:24:00] example of maybe a discussion that you guys have had that really only two adopted people would have that were married to each other? You know because I, the reason I'm asking is because, you know I'm, my partner is not adopted. He understands a lot more about adoptee issues because of what I do. But I still feel like I'm always the one trying to explain things. Well are there things that you guys sort of cycle back to? You know you mentioned that you were adopted as an infant straight out of the hospital.

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: And then your husband was in foster care for a period of time and then was adopted by his foster family. But you know we've talked before about how even a period of time in care just exacerbates our trauma. Are there things that you've discussed about that? I mean I know we're comparing apples and oranges, but still I think that's, you know something to…that might have come up for [00:25:00] you.

Stephani: I could tell one thing that would be for both of us being in reunion and the reactions to our adopted families finding out that we have been in reunion have been very similar. And then our first families, their reactions as well have been very similar. So we both understand like this is probably gonna happen. I'm letting him know, like you know your adoptive families are gonna be, they're gonna have a very hard time understanding why you were even wanting to find your identity. Who you may look like. How you walk a certain way, your, you know examples like that. Just the very simple things of where do we get our eye color from? How, why is our butt so big? You know things like that. We can understand that together [00:26:00] and letting him know that there's gonna be some rejection from the adopted side of our families, in the biological sides of our families. They're going to go through certain emotions of jealousy and not understanding why, why all of a sudden you just, you're here and what do you want? Or what can I get from you? We do definitely understand. We both have experienced that in our relationships and we both get it, together. We know, and we also know if I haven't heard from like say a sibling in a while, and all of a sudden I hear from him, I'm so excited and like yes, I, he said hello to me.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's so good.

Stephani: So he would understand. He understands how much I needed that [00:27:00] validation from a sibling. Or how much I need a validation of my adopted sister that's seven years older than me that, you know we grew up in the same home. She's not adopted. I was the only one adopted, but the validation of her understanding and appreciating how I feel of wanting to even search for my identity. I mean we both understand the seriousness of it, and we're also, we both understand the complexity of it all. And what it, can happen. And the stages as well is that we go through. We go through the honeymoon stage and we go through the confusion stage and then we'll go through backing off for a while. Not all families do this, I believe, but for, [00:28:00] you know I did and he has as well so.

Haley Radke: Can you remember any particular moments in your IFS therapy where either one of you sort of discovered something? And that really like unlocked something for you.

The reason why I'm asking this, so when the IFS therapist explained these things to me and I, like I said, I'll link to that episode, she talked about the session where mostly she's just there to guide the client as they are processing things internally and verbally, I'm assuming, so that you guys both know what's going on. So, is there, is there any moments that you can remember where you or your husband had an insight and you both were just like, whoa this is, this is going to change things for us?

Stephani: Yes. I believe there was a session where [00:29:00] he was very angry. Why I wasn't understanding him not wanting to no longer contact his birth mother. Okay. There was a session, it was very intense and I wasn't listening to him. So his part felt as though I was, explain this. So to protect his child, he had a part come up that was, it's called a teen part. And that teen reacts. Yeah, his teen is an (expletive) big time and like he's very sharp, tongue smart and get loud and then it would like trigger me into being scared as my child. It would scare me as though I was in danger. Like something bad is going to happen. That was like a, it's a very [00:30:00] huge eye-opening experience for both of us because I was not validating how he felt. So he had a part that came up that was his teen and his teen part was scaring my child part. That was scared of something bad is going to happen.

Haley Radke: And so in that moment when you guys finally figured this out, okay, this is kind of a bad loop, we're in, how, how are you able to get out of that then?

Stephani: We identify the part that is triggering us and we acknowledge that part. Like even to this day, like we, we will speak in parts. He will say look you know, what you're saying is, it's like my teen part is having a reaction to what you're saying and I'm like, okay, I appreciate you telling me that. Or he's like my critical part is [00:31:00] really high today, so it's, I am having a hard time with my critical part, so I'm really angry with myself today. You know, you know he's saying I'm really angry with myself today because my critical part is really wide open, so I just wanna let you know.

So that helps me understand where he is coming from, that moment in time where he, what he's feeling.

Haley Radke: And then you can be like, okay, today's not a good day to ask about when are you gonna do this? Or you know you can be more sensitive to that.

Stephani: Yes. Because if his critical part is already on high alert if he feels as though he is criticizing himself for not getting the garage clean for an example, or not getting a door up for an example, [00:32:00] if he's already hard on himself in that area and if I didn't know about it, I would say, hey you know, when are we gonna get those doors put up? When are those gonna be installed? So he would then feel even worse or he'll react. And another part of him will react to protect himself from being hurt. But if I'm already aware of how he feels then I can have empathy and compassion, and I'm curious as well of why he feels that way. And many times we will go in and say, would you like to talk about that part? What is your part? Why are you feeling, why is your critical part out today? And if he doesn't feel like talking, then I respect his space. And [00:33:00] I will shut down. And then many times that has happened and I'm triggered and I feel as though he doesn't appreciate or validate my feelings. So that's where being adopted, you can you just bounce off of each other's parts and until you're in like your adult self. Which is very crucial. It's where we want to be, but we also have to appreciate and understand that those parts are not our enemies. That they were there to protect our child that was traumatized, hurt, abandoned in the womb even, I believe.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's very insightful. And I mean I just think we have so many of these situations, like on a daily basis, and just the fact that you guys [00:34:00] are having these discussions and you're working away at it every day. And that's great. And I know you said we're a work in progress, but you know a lot of people just stay stuck. And so it's pretty great that you are…you're both working at your relationship together and I mean, I'm always…I don't know how to say this exactly, but I'm really thankful that Nick is my husband. He's so like stable and, because I just feel like a basket case most of the time. And so I don't know how I could take care of someone else that is like me. So it just must take a lot more of your emotional energy to be cognizant, so much more cognizant of the other person.

Stephani: Yes, it is. It's very emotionally draining. It could be a lot of time consuming with trying to even, as though we're on high alert with one another. I think that may be a good term is…we are both on high alert. We [00:35:00] want to make sure that we don't step on each other's toes, hurt each other's feelings.

Haley Radke: Do you have any advice for other adoptees who are married to adoptees before we do our recommended resources?

Stephani: I would say to stop and just listen to one another. And know that yes, trauma is trauma no matter what type of trauma and loss, it's pain. But we all process it differently in different seasons of our lives. So what I may have experienced and overcome in certain areas, it may take longer for the other person to process and overcome in that area of their loss and pain and finding their true identity.

Haley Radke: Thank you. So let's do [00:36:00] our recommended resources. And the thing I want to recommend today is Adoptees Connect. So our mutual friend, Pamela Karanova has founded Adoptees Connect to be, well she started out just wanting a peer led adoptee centric support group. And that's amazing. There's so many groups that are for the whole constellation and as you were saying, Stephani, just having how you and your husband sort of trigger each other. I don't know if you've been in a support group situation with an adoptive parent before, but I don't do so well in that space. So Pamela wanted to create a space, safe space for just adoptees to do peer support. And so she started the website, adopteesconnect.com and other support groups, adoptee, peer support groups across the US are popping up. And there's her first location, [00:37:00] Lexington, Kentucky, which you have been, right?

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: Yes. Even though it's a long drive for you, but…

Stephani: No.

Haley Radke: No, not a long drive? How long?

Stephani: No, not at all. I can arrive there within 60 minutes.

Haley Radke: At an hour. Yeah.

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: Well you know, I would say that's a long drive. But anyway, so just 60 minutes and you can be with your fellow adoptees. That's awesome. And then I started a support group as well in my city, and so we are joining up with Adoptees Connect as well. So that's kind of fun and the network is growing and all it takes is one person in one place to get adoptees together and get connected. And Pamela has written out some great group guidelines and she's working on some like different resources, manuals, those kind of things for the leaders. So even if you haven't done something like this before, you can do it. And I [00:38:00] would encourage you to go to adopteesconnect.com to read a little bit more about what Pamela has started there. And if you are craving adoptee community and you're wanting to get connected with other adult adoptees in your area, I mean maybe you're the one to start it. So I also did that healing series episode about how to start a support group with Jeanette Yoffe and she gave some great advice in that as well. And so those two resources combined I think are pretty great. So I love Pamela. I know you do too.

Stephani: Yes. She's gonna be my roomie for Indianapolis Adoptee convention.

Haley Radke: I had…she was my roomie last year. She's trading up.

Stephani: We will miss you.

Haley Radke: Yes, I'm not able to come. By the time this airs it will already have happened, but yeah big event. Okay, Stephani, what did you want to recommend to us today?

Stephani: I was going [00:39:00] to recommend…I was part of being a contributor for the Adoptee Survival Guide book. It's 30 of, adoptees sharing their stories, their experiences through adoption. And you can find us on the Facebook, the Adoptee Survival Guide. The editor is Lynn Grubb.

Haley Radke:I love the name of it. I mean the name of that book is just perfect. Don't, that's exactly what we need, right, a survival guide.

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: Yes. How do you navigate this?

Stephani: Yes, it is. It is excellent.

Haley Radke: So you wrote a chapter in that book then?

Stephani: Yes, I did.

Haley Radke: And what did you share about, in your chapter?

Stephani: I shared about being adopted as a newborn and then the shock of finding out about my adoption and then the shock of finding out about my racial identity. And then my husband being adopted as well.

Haley Radke: Okay. So you unpack a lot of what we talked about today. You unpack that in that book. That's [00:40:00] great. And is there any, anything else in that book that you just want to highlight or point to?

Stephani:It's great resources for, with the DNA. All the mini matches that are out there. There's very, there's some authors in there that have specialized in the genealogy and the DNA matching that some resources you can find as well.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's great. So if you're searching and you're looking for some tips on that.

Stephani: Yes.

Haley Radke: That's a good resource for that. I actually met Lynn last year when I was at the Indiana Adoptee Network conference and she was presenting and that's awesome that she's put this together and that you're part of it. That's great.

Stephani: Yes. Thank you. You can also go online, I believe they have a website. We have, I believe, the adopteesurvivalguide.com as well. It's Facebook.

Haley Radke: Yes, I see. Theadopteesurvival [00:41:00] guide.com and then there's also the Facebook page. Thank you. We'll definitely check that out. And where can we connect with you online Stephani?

Stephani: You can connect with me online with Facebook at Stephani Harris. I believe it is S-T-E-P-H-A-N-I-H-A-R-R-I-S. There's no E on Stephani.

Haley Radke: I have Stephani, S-T-E-P-H-A-N-I.Harris on the facebook.com/that.

Stephani:That's correct.

Haley Radke: Great. I will link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us and also sharing about how therapy is really helping you and your husband build your relationship. That was really an important thing for us to hear.

If Stephani piqued your interest in IFS therapy or if just thinking about intimate partnerships as an adopted person, how [00:42:00] tricky and vulnerable it makes you feel and like scared or if you're struggling in your marriage, any of those things. Next week's episode is gonna be so helpful. Marta is back. She's the IFS therapist we talked to last week, and we're gonna dive into this very topic. So make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss it. It's a really helpful episode. Other ways you can stay connected. There's the Adoptees On newsletter, adopteeson.com/newsletter. We are on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. All of our social media links are on the website, Adopteeson.com. And I just want to say a gigantic thank you to each of you who share the show with your friends who tag us on Instagram or Twitter or you actually with word of mouth, tell your friends about it. I know some of you have been talking about it in your support groups.

It has been a good discussion starter for you with your partners. Some of you have talked about downloading the show [00:43:00] when you're going on road trips, which is so fun. I get to go on a road trip with you. I love that. So thank you. Thank you for sharing the show, and I also wanna just extend a giant thank you to those of you who are supporting the show financially through Patreon or one time gifts. You're making it possible for this show to continue. If you're interested in partnering with me, if you're interested in joining the Secret Adoptees only Facebook group or accessing the unedited versions of the show. I would love to have you come and partner with me. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details for monthly support, and I just thank you.

Thank you so much. I literally wouldn't be able to do the show without you. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

28 [Healing Series] Is Adoption Trauma?

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/28

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today is a heavy topic. I know I say that every single time it's a Healing episode. We tackle: Is adoption really trauma? Let's listen in.

This is Lesli Johnson, a fellow adoptee and licensed therapist who works to help other adoptees connect the dots of their story and live authentically. Welcome to Adoptees On, Lesli.

Lesli A. Johnson: Thanks, Haley. How are you today?

Haley Radke: Great. I'm so excited to talk to you again. You have really made an impact on our listeners so far, so I'm really excited to tackle this topic with you today.

I've had some adoptees contact me and they've been surprised by some of the stories on the podcast. We sometimes mention adoption as being a traumatic thing, that there's this thing about “adoption trauma”, and I was hoping that you could address that today. Do you think being adopted means that there's some kind of traumatic wound? What are your thoughts on that?

Lesli A. Johnson: I certainly also get contacted a lot with questions related to adoption and trauma. I think trauma is sometimes a hard word to hear, but I do think the process of separating an infant or a baby or a child from their biology, it is traumatic.

The word trauma, I mean, there is a negative connotation about it, but I'm advocating more for just truth and transparency, so that's why I use words like trauma. I don't think that that means that a person has to have a lifelong trauma, but if we're addressing the event as a traumatic event and then saying, “Okay, so now what do we need to do to help this person be calmer, work with their nervous system, work with integrating adoption into their story, to alleviate the symptoms of trauma?” I think a lot of times when people hear the word trauma, they're like, “Oh, that's so negative.” No, it's a word. It's a word. It's a word describing some symptoms that happen to most people when they're separated from their mother.

For a lot of adoptees, there are multiple traumas if they are placed in foster care, or if there are multiple placements. And I think that sometimes when an adoptee has had more than one placement or more than one foster home, that it's sometimes easier to use the word trauma in that situation. And maybe it’s deeper trauma, but I don't think so, I think it's okay to use the word trauma to describe the separation between a baby and their birth mother.

I always use the analogy, most of the time if you're going to get a puppy, you're not really supposed to take a puppy away from its mother until it's six or eight weeks old. But it's somehow okay to have a baby separated from– Not “okay”, I'm not using the word okay lightly, just supporting that idea that there is a traumatic response.

What we know about the brain and the nervous system today –that maybe wasn't evident, you know, 20 or 30 years ago– was that the process of separating a baby or an infant from his or her biological mother, is coded in the nervous system and in the mother's nervous system as traumatic. The only part of the brain that's fully developed at birth is the sympathetic nervous system, which is the fight, flight, or freeze. And when the familiar mother isn't there to soothe the baby, the baby's levels of cortisol shoot up. And if this event of separation happens before the language receptors of the brain are developed, which is between 0-3, the event is just encoded in the nervous system. So we call that an ‘implicit only’ memory, meaning it happened before there was language, so there are no words to describe it.

What I've found in working with adult adoptees, and even teenagers and kids, is that they often –adults who maybe have a little bit more access to their experience and relating it– say things like, “I have this sense of just feeling lost or unrooted or like I don't know where I am, but I don't know what that's from.” And we might be able to relate that back to the separation before there were words to describe what happened. You know, the sense of rootlessness or the sense of where they say, “I don't remember exactly what happened, but I just have this felt sense.” That implicit memory.

Haley Radke: So what's the difference between a biological mother relinquishing right in the delivery room versus a biological mom taking her baby home? So there's that feeling like, ‘Where's my mother?’ What part of that is the traumatic?

Lesli A. Johnson: What we know now in 2017 –that you know, when I certainly was adopted, oh my gosh, almost 50 years ago– is that there's so much that the baby hears and smells even in utero. So, the baby knows the mother's voice. The baby knows the mother's gait, you know, the way she walks. The baby knows the mother's smells. So when that separation happens, everything that was once familiar to the baby is gone. It activates the sympathetic nervous system –the baby's– in fight, flight, or freeze. ‘What do I do?’, you know, not that they're thinking this logically, but their nervous system gets activated.

Whereas if the mother is able to be with the baby and act as the parasympathetic nervous system, the soothing agent, the familiar mother's able to calm the baby and soothe the baby. I mean, there are studies where crying babies are given a piece of clothing that the biological mother– you know, has her scent on it, and the baby is soothed by just even that familiarity.

Haley Radke:There's a connection that's been built, all over the time that the biological mother was carrying the baby–

Lesli A. Johnson: Essentially for the baby's entire life, yeah.

Haley Radke: Right, so then that's what's been severed. Can you talk a little bit about what does that mean? So it's traumatic, and so what does that mean for our brains? What's different between my brain as an adoptee who is relinquished as an infant versus someone who was parented right away?

Lesli A. Johnson: To clarify, a baby taken home from the hospital by their adoptive parents is parented from this start. But there still was that separation. So speaking in general terms, because I don't know if it's a hundred percent, but speaking in general terms, what I see in my practice is a common theme of separation anxiety. Separations and transitions are difficult. There is activation sometimes of just the nervous system so that there's hypervigilance. Sometimes adoptees talk about feeling anxious around separations and transitions. But just a heightened vigilance in the nervous system.

Sometimes people may not even relate that to adoption or the separation. But I certainly would say that most adoptees that I work with in my practice have a significant amount of anxiety and activation of their nervous system. Difficulty self-soothing would be another thing, too.

Haley Radke: So you say some adoptees, they don't even realize that this is connected. So how do we connect those dots?

Lesli A. Johnson: Well, I think you just named it: connecting the dots. I really believe good mental health is the ability to connect the dots of your story and have a coherent narrative.

So for smaller children, it would be helping the adoptive parents view adoption as trauma. I think one of the first books written on this would be Nancy Verrier's The Primal Wound. I remember reading that book in graduate school and kind of putting it away and I didn't wanna have that wound, you know, ‘that wasn't me’. And then realizing, ‘Oh wait, this completely explains it. This really is–’. I think she kind of was a pioneer in that respect, of calling adoption what it is, it's a trauma. So working with that is working with the trauma. Every person might display different symptoms, but talking about it for what it actually is, I mean, the truth is your friend.

Haley Radke: Okay. It is so interesting that you say that thing about The Primal Wound. Because I remember when I was reading it, too, I was like, ‘Nope, nope! This is not me.’ I've had a few adoptees contact me, one in particular I'm thinking of emailed me and he said, “Just so you know, I love your podcast and I listen all the time, but I'm an in-the-fog adoptee,” is what he said. “I'm good with adoption. Like, you know, it's interesting to hear these stories but it hasn't really affected me.” So is that true? Like, some of us are just super affected and some of us are fine?

Lesli A. Johnson: I think that certainly there are people that are: a) maybe more resilient, b) maybe are better able to use coping mechanisms like denial –and I don't mean that in a derogatory way at all– but work at a different level where maybe they're not either making the connections to adoption or they truly don't feel that adoption has had any impact on their lives.

I wouldn't challenge that person. I might challenge them if they were my client and I really saw themes that I've seen with clients. But yeah, I think maybe to each their own. But I've definitely seen it in clients that I've worked with where adults come in and don't think things are related to adoption, and then really start to connect their dots and have a real eye-opening, a lot of ‘aha’ moments, and are able to integrate how adoption has shaped them and add that piece to their story because it is a part of their story.

Haley Radke: It's true, I would never want to “lead someone out of the fog” –so to speak, that lingo– to realize maybe there is a traumatic aspect, because one of the discussions we've been having in one of my Facebook groups is like, “This is too hard. Let's go back in the fog. We don't wanna deal with these things.”

Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, denial and repression are super powerful. They're super powerful coping mechanisms.

Haley Radke: So what else can we use to not just cope, but heal from this trauma?

Lesli A. Johnson: Acknowledging it as such, and then working with it like you might other traumatic events or events that are perceived by the individual as traumatic. So, working with establishing a coherent narrative; support groups; therapy; you mentioned Facebook groups. I think when you're able to have a supportive group of people to run ideas by, run thoughts by, have your feelings and thoughts and experiences validated, that can be really healing. And as you know, we've talked before, I'm a huge proponent of EMDR therapy, which is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing therapy. It's an integrative therapy that I use in my practice. That's been really helpful.

Haley Radke: Yeah, and we did a whole episode on that, so you can go back and check that out for a deeper dive.

Lesli A. Johnson: Other tools and things that I've seen work with my clients: having a mindfulness program, working with the body in mind again. When traumas happen, the event is stored in the brain in a maladaptive way, so we really wanna work on connecting the mind in the body and integrating. So things like yoga, mindfulness, anything that helps connect the mind and the body.

Haley Radke: That’s really good. Trying to put it out of our head is not necessarily– if it's all repressed, that's fine, but if it's like coming out in different ways, we should probably deal with it.

Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, I think so. I think it's good to acknowledge it, because I think for most people there are parts of their adoption story and adoption experience that do kind of leak out as they go through life and move through life.

Haley Radke: Like having your first baby. For some people, the midlife kind-of crisis-y stage. Those are two separate things I've heard from multiple adoptees, when they have kind-of “woken up”-- I don't know how to say that.

Lesli A. Johnson: I think adolescence is another time, too. I mean, adolescence for all people, adopted or not, is a time of finding out who you are. And for adopted teens, that can be difficult if they don't have the pieces of their story. And part of finding out who you are is knowing where you came from. I think that's another life transition that's sometimes difficult for adoptees.

Haley Radke: Can you direct us to any particular books or research that we could kind of dive into a little further if we're interested in deeper study? You already talked about The Primal Wound, but is there anything else that would be helpful, to learn a little bit more about maybe the effect that it has on the brain, anything like that?

Lesli A. Johnson: One of my favorite books on trauma in general, that I think addresses what happens in the brain and the nervous system, is The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk, that's an excellent book.

Another of my favorite books related to adoption and the not-so-wonderful parts is called Adoption Therapy, and it's an anthology of essays by written by adoptees, many of them who are also therapists. That book was edited by Laura Dennis, it's called Adoption Therapy. Have you read it?

Haley Radke: I just got it. I had saved up a bunch of money and I ordered, like, 10 different books. So it's literally upstairs on my nightstand right now.

Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, it’s another one of those –in my opinion, similar to The Primal Wound– where it's not exactly what I would call a pleasant read, but every bit of it is so informative and it's a wonderful book.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your insight on this topic, which is very hard. Where can we connect with you online?

Lesli A. Johnson: You can connect with me, probably the easiest way is through my website, which is www.yourmindfulbrain.com, and then there are links to my email, Facebook page, Twitter account, and Instagram.

Haley Radke: Oh, perfect. Thank you so much, Lesli.

Lesli A. Johnson: Sure, my pleasure.

Haley Radke: If you have other topics that you'd like to see addressed in an upcoming Healing episode, please come find me on Twitter or Instagram, @adopteeson, and let me know.

I keep telling you about my secret Facebook group, but this week I want to let you know how you could have access to that and some unedited episodes of the podcast. If you are dying for more content, my second-level Patreon reward is a private RSS feed. That's techno-lingo for your very own personal podcast feed.

The latest unedited show I just released yesterday, is me chatting with Carrie about what I learned at the Indiana Adoptee Network Conference, and I tell her a humiliating story of something totally inappropriate I said to a complete stranger. So, if you would like to revel in my misery, that is the only way you can hear that story.

My link for Patreon is Adopteeson.com/partner. If you're ever looking for a supportive Facebook group and Patreon's just not something you can swing right now, come and find me on Twitter or Instagram and send me a message, because I have some places I can recommend for you.

Next week's episode is with Marriette Williams. She's an international adoptee who searched and found her biological mother, only to find out that her adoption was non-consensual. Make sure you're subscribed in Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts, so you don't miss it.

Let's talk again next Friday.

69 [Healing Series] Internal Family Systems

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/69

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported.

You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we are going to learn about a type of therapy called the Internal Family Systems Model. I know it's a mouthful, but it's so helpful for adoptees, so let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Marta [formerly Drachenberg]. Welcome, Marta. So, Marta is a fellow adoptee. She's also a licensed mental health counselor who is trained in Internal Family Systems, a model she believes to be especially powerful in helping adoptees learn to love and welcome all their internal parts.

So today you are here to teach us what Internal Family Systems means. But first I'm going to ask you if you would just briefly share with us a little bit of your story.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Sure. I was adopted at two weeks old from Bogota, Columbia. I grew up in Connecticut, middle white class suburbia. I reunited with my birth mom just over a year ago through a private investigator.

So it's been a big year and I don’t know what else to say about that. Of course, a long story, I could say a lot more, but those feel relevant.

Haley Radke: Okay, thank you. And so, do you want to just tell us your decade of age? I'm just curious because you said it's just been a year ago.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes, I'm 31.

Haley Radke: Okay. Wow. How long did it take for the private investigator to find her?

Marta Isabella Sierra: So I did all the DNA testing first, which is people's general first line of defense these days. It's a long shot, though, for internationally adopted people. The DNA testing and everything came back reaping nothing. So I hired a private investigator on a Friday afternoon and he found her Sunday morning.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay. That is quite the story and maybe we'll hear more of it someday, but I like to give people just an orientation of how you're coming to this work with adoptees. And I know you work with other groups as well.

But why don't you start out and just explain to us, I’ve never even heard of this Internal Family Systems. What is that?

Marta Isabella Sierra: So Internal Family Systems was created by Dick Schwartz. He discovered it really organically. The basic concepts are that there are multiplicities inside of us and actually anciently, historically, this was always our way of thinking about ourselves. We lost our way somewhere along the way and have become kind of mono-minded. Meaning that we think all of our actions and thoughts and emotions and everything that we do is a reflection of who we are in this really singular way.

So we have to become really black and white and decide all of these things, instead of honoring that we're all walking contradictions and we have so many different parts of ourselves that feel so many contradictory things and irrational things, and that all of that is really human and really welcome.

And so we talk a lot about parts. Of course, parts of self may be an easier way to think about it. That's a question I get pretty early on from clients. What is a part? And it's varied, people's experience of their parts. It can be an emotion, it could be a feeling, it can be a sensory feeling, a thought stream.

Some people have really strong visuals of their parts. Some people really do experience them mostly in the body. But we have a multitude of parts. That's also a question I get early on. How many parts do I have? When people are starting to get to know their parts. And it's endless. And all I can say is that I've been doing this work for about six years now and I just met a new part in my therapy session this week.

So we have a multitude of parts and that's okay.

Haley Radke: I've heard some therapists, even on this Healing Series before, talk about, oh, maybe you're going to talk to your younger self or your childhood self. Is that an expression of something you're talking about?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. That is an expression and a lot of people have talked about that. It's really just opening that up, that's the entire lens, that's the entire language that we have all these parts.

Yes, certainly we have younger parts. And a lot of our parts are certainly created in childhood, but it can be even more open than that. Like, I have a part of me that gets angry at this. I have a part of me that judges this. I have a part of me that feels afraid when…. You could just fill that in over and over in so many different ways.

And a big mantra in the IFS world is “All parts are welcome.” That’s the work. How do we welcome all of our parts in a world where our parts are very often not being welcomed externally? How do we do that work internally to welcome our parts?

The cultural view, especially in America, is that we can shame our parts into being different, right? Whatever change we're talking about. But an easy one to go to is of course the diet industry. If we have a part that wants to eat, then we should try to control, shame, hate, disconnect from that part of ourselves, instead of what if that part of us needs the most love, the most compassion, the most TLC out of all of the parts.

And so how do we turn towards the parts of us that we hate or feel ashamed about or struggle with and open our hearts to them.

Haley Radke: Before you go too far down that, I just want one more clarification question for you. What is the difference between saying we have different parts versus we have different personalities? We don't call it this anymore, multiple personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder. Can you make a distinction of that for us as well?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Sure. That is also an early concern sometimes from clients. What does this mean that I have all these parts? Does it mean that I have? Yes, exactly.

Clinicians say DID but most people still say multiple personality disorder. DID is really very extreme, it's when someone's system has had such an extreme reaction or been through such an extreme trauma that their parts have become essentially independent. So that's the extreme. But we all have parts.

Yes. And we all have, if you want to say it, multiple personalities. That's fine too. We all have multiplicities. And there is a stigma about that, and that's part of how we've gotten away from welcoming all our parts is that we have created this stigma about having multiplicities.

Haley Radke: But the difference is that in this level that would be considered disordered they're independent.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Correct. They're acting on their own, essentially, versus being in connection with them. But that's its own spectrum of being present with your parts, and that actually moves me perfectly into the next piece, which is the other really hugely different thing about IFS from other models of therapy is that we believe that everyone has a healing force inside of them.

IFS calls that self-energy. I don't always use that term with clients. I usually let clients define that on their own. My personal definition is pure non-judgmental love. But I have clients that define it as divine light. I have clients that define it as authentic self. Really, that we all have this innate ability to do our own healing.

And some people may have lived their whole lives never learning how to access that energy. And so it's a tool to access it. So we have the eight C’s in IFS of self-energy which are Calm, Creativity, Compassion, Curiosity, Courage, Clarity, Connectedness, and Confidence. But really, I always go back to that non-judgmental love piece, first and foremost.

And so the idea, the goal of IFS therapy is to get the parts of yourself in touch with that self-energy, in connection with it. How do we, again, I would say in my layman's terms, how do we open our hearts to the parts of us that are struggling, that are stuck in time, that are in pain, and help them do some healing?

And that we are most aptly equipped to do that ourselves. So the role of the therapist becomes helping you build relationship with your parts, helping you open your heart to the parts of yourself that you're struggling with the most. I'm not doing the work, I'm just helping you figure out how to open your heart and figure out how to help you when you get stuck and when there are other things in the way, essentially, between you and your parts.

Haley Radke: So you said that you really think this is powerful in helping adoptees, and why specifically would it be so great for working with adoptees?

Marta Isabella Sierra: So IFS is an experiential therapy, and what that means is that it's not a talking therapy. Most models of therapy would go under the genre of talk therapy but IFS is an experiential therapy.

And so one thing that means is that it's difficult for me to describe and give an example of, but I'm going to try. So I typically use the analogy of a guided meditation. That's not quite what it is. It's just my best analogy. 90% of my clients work with their eyes closed. That's not mandatory. But it's essentially an attunement process that I lead you through.

Clients more familiar with IFS need less guidance, right? The more familiar they are with their own system, with how they work and how this work shows up for them, which is different again for every person. I can't say that enough, that everyone experiences their parts differently.

But essentially through that work, I guide people through how to do that healing, and it involves a lot of internal ritual, which we call unburdening. Unburdening the pain and the beliefs and the wounds that have been being carried around by these parts that they're really overworked and trapped and they're doing their best. They need our help.

Haley Radke: And something we talk about a lot with adoptees is adoption as an infant or a very young child is preverbal trauma. This would be, because it's not talk therapy, this sounds like it would be powerful in that respect.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Exactly. Typically how I run my sessions is about 10 minutes of talking and then going and doing the internal work, and then I typically bring people out about 10 minutes from the end of the hour so we can do a bit more verbal processing.

But the trigger or the trailhead or whatever someone's coming in with might be like, I got in a fight with my husband this week and this is what I felt. And just slow that down. Okay, where did you notice that in your body? I might ask something like that. And then we go into that process and it would shock you how much that kind of surface content leads us right to where we need to go, which is typically parts that need our help and those can be preverbal parts.

So I started with an IFS therapist in 2012 and that work was very powerful and I still viscerally remember everything about this session where I met my infant part who was in a complete state of terror, crying, wouldn't even look at me for a little while, but eventually I got her to look at me and I held her in my arms and sobbed. And it was so powerful to comfort her myself. And yes, I had a witness in the room, but I don't know how much time went by. It's this other world sometimes when you're doing this work and it feels timeless.

It felt like I was with her for 10 hours, but of course it happened within the context of the therapy hour. But I got to say to her in that first session, and I say to her all the time, “I'm not going anywhere.” “I will not leave you.” And our traumatized parts as adoptees need to hear that more than anything in the world, and other people can offer it to us, but it probably isn't true.

People die. People leave. Things change. People move. People have other people in their lives. We're never fully sure and we can't ever fully be sure that other people won't leave. But we get to support our parts in this way, and this is so specific to adoption trauma. I get to say to my little parts, “I'm not going anywhere” and I get to mean it.

And I get to know that I will always show up for them and I get to give them that safety that they're not going to get from anybody else.

Haley Radke: That's pretty amazing. I have chills. Goosebumps. Wow. What a moment. So you have that moment comforting yourself as an infant. That powerful thing, is that what led you to decide to become a specialist in IFS, an IFS therapist?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. I signed up for Level 1 training, really to keep doing my own work because it was so powerful and it was changing my life so quickly. But the first day of my Level 1, I knew in my bones, in my gut, this isn't just about my work, this is about my future, this is everything.

The lens of IFS feels so aligned with how I already saw the world. It felt also very aligned with my graduate school training which was in expressive therapies and dance movement therapy. It felt really aligned with the somatic work that I had already been grounded in and it just already felt like my language.

Some people that are doing trainings have been working for years in the field and they have a lot of unlearning to do, and I started my training right out of graduate school and really dove right into this world. And I believe it's very powerful.

Haley Radke: So you also work with people who have disordered eating. That was your primary focus for a while, is that right?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Correct.

Haley Radke: And what are some of the things that you've worked with that population for a while, and what are some of those things that translate into the adoptee world? Is there anything? Is that a fair comparison?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I don't know about comparison. I will say that I work with eating disorders because I had an eating disorder.

I prefer the term active recovery, so I would say I'm in active recovery. And I believe now firmly that was a tertiary expression of my adoption trauma. I think that my adoption trauma set me up to develop an eating disorder. Like so many of us struggle with eating disorders, addictions, suicidality, all the things that you've already talked about in a multitude on your show.

And so just as a result of that, I've always had some percentage of my caseload that is adoptees. And so I've been going deeper and deeper into that work. But I do believe that our perfectionism, our really deep craving for worthiness can sometimes, of course, express itself in an eating disorder and our need for control.

And if eating disorders are about anything, they're certainly about control, being in control or being out of control. But there's a big theme there about control that I think makes sense, that an adopted person might be more susceptible to an eating disorder.

Haley Radke: And you mentioned that after your experience comforting your infant self that you felt some big changes right away. I think that's the wording that you used. Can you just talk a little bit about that? What changed for you?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Just my way of relating to myself. I just listened to the Healing Series episode earlier today, the most recent one. And I loved the way that I think it was Pam was talking about how do we speak to ourselves?

How do we speak to ourselves with kindness? And that's very aligned with IFS, with opening our hearts to these parts of ourselves. Everybody has critical parts, shaming parts that come in in moments of vulnerability and say that we're doing it wrong, that we should have reacted differently. And how do we say, Oh, hi?

How are we welcoming to those parts? Instead of, Oh, you're here again. Go away, or, I don't need this right now. Or, again, all of that kind of kicking our own butts, like shaming ourselves into change-energy. How do we shift towards, Oh, hi. Even just a hello. If you can't be kind to your parts that are showing up, just saying hi. There's some Buddhist themes in there, too, of just welcoming what is, but that shifts very quickly. That’s the first shift I invite clients to make is just to notice and say hello to their parts.

Oh, that's a part of me. There's a part of me that shows up in this situation. There's a part of me. Oh, that's a part. Once you start noticing, it's like we stay in training. It's like popcorn and you start noticing your parts, other people's parts. It just becomes your lens of how you see things.

And the first step is just saying, hello. Hi. Okay. You're a part of me. I'm okay with that. You're a part of me, or I'm trying to be okay with that you're a part of me.

And the other piece of “all parts are welcome” is that all of our parts have positive intention for us, even if we can't see it. Even parts that do really destructive, dangerous things, there is a positive intention in there.

It's trusting that there is some positive intention that even the shamers and the criticizers up through self-harm and suicidal parts have positive intention for us. And so when we say, shut up, I don't like you, go away. I don't wanna think this way right now. When we push them aside, we don't get to learn why are you here? Why are you doing this? What are you afraid would happen if you didn't do this right now? And we don't get to the healing.

Haley Radke: So, in order to work in this way, do you need to go see an IFS therapist? It sounds like there's a lot of guiding even in that first 10 minutes of the appointment, you said, to find where you're going in that hour.

And it also sounded to me like that's the kind of work that you wouldn't want to do on your own. I'm picturing you holding yourself as an infant. That is an incredibly vulnerable position. And you're opening up a traumatic wound, and so you don't want to do that stuff by yourself. Am I correct in saying that?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Absolutely correct. And the longer you do it, the more you can do on your own. And the goal is that the hour that you spend, or two hours a week even, in therapy becomes just this touchstone, and that you're really learning, again, how to build this relationship with your parts on your own and support them on your own and move through triggers and all of those things.

But yes, absolutely I think being with someone who has been trained in this is crucial because what I haven't talked about is our protective system, because I could spend so long talking about that, but it links to what I was just saying about honoring that our parts have positive intention for us.

So most of our parts are trying to protect us in some way or another. There's kind of two classifications of those. I won't go into it here, but essentially one is proactive and one is reactive. Our protectors will jump in, especially in the internal work. So if I'm moving towards a wound with a client, I trust that their protectors will show up. Their protectors will show up, and the work will only go as safe as the system says.

I don't say how deep we go or how fast, the client's parts say how deep we go, how fast, and because of that I have never had a client come back and feel overexposed, even through some very deep trauma work because I'm not saying if it's safe or not. The client's system is saying if it's safe or not.

Haley Radke: So are there any exercises that are safe to think about this, practice on our own in some way?

I guess I gave that example earlier of saying some kind things to your younger self if you're in a moment of fear or triggering or something. Is there anything like that or are we specifically saying this all needs to start in an IFS therapist’s office?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Again, I think the starting point is what I was talking about, which is just saying hello. Just noticing your parts is a huge, huge, huge piece of work that can be months long of starting to notice your parts and just say hello.

If you can say something kinder or something more loving, that's great but it's not necessary. It's enough to say hello. I think everyone has an experience of being in a room or talking to someone and feeling invisible. And how painful that is.

Some of our parts that have been neglected for years, for maybe our entire lives, the power of just saying hello to them, of acknowledging that they exist and they are a part of us, and that we care a little bit, even just we care that they exist can be hugely powerful. And that's something that everybody can do starting whenever they would like. Because the goal again is that we are the primary caretaker of our parts and that's the goal to move towards.

And that the therapist, again, is just a facilitator in that. What can be dangerous for adoptees, I think, in a traditional therapeutic relationship is that there's often a reparenting or a mimicking, right? I will be this love and compassionate mother maybe that you didn't experience, and that can feel really healing.

But that's one hour a week, and then all of the other hours of the week if I become your safe base, then you're dysregulated the whole rest of the time. That's a lot of hours of the week to be dysregulated and have this one hour of comfort a week. So yes, it's still a therapeutic relationship and of course we still develop attachment and bonds with our clients that are important, but I'm only being that self-energy in the room if the client has access to none of it at all.

Ideally, I'm in a witness role, mostly witnessing and guiding and keeping my own heart wide open, attuned to what's happening for the client.

Haley Radke: Okay. That sounds really interesting. I'm curious, how does somebody find an IFS therapist?

Marta Isabella Sierra: The website will be in the show notes. There's an IFS website and you can look for an IFS therapist on there.

Not all of us are on there. I'm actually not even on there because I've moved around a lot in the past few years and have been in and out of private practice. I have a small practice right now. So even to reach out to the ones that you find on there, they may know other IFS therapists in their area that they can refer you to.

It's a difficult choice. I know you talk on the show a lot about finding an adoption competent therapist. I could not agree more. And I, myself, am in this difficult position often. Am I going to find somebody who specializes in adoption or is it more important to me to have an IFS person? Because the IFS therapist specialized in adoption is definitely an emerging subgroup of us. I am not the only one.

Haley Radke: Marta, I was just gonna say, are you the only one?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one. And it's important to me to continue to educate my community of IFS therapists so that they're more attuned. But that piece that I was saying about the work goes only as deep and as fast as the system wants.

Any skilled IFS therapist is attuned to that, and I think there's this piece where, again, it's really about your parts and you and you validating your parts’ experience. So yes, do we still need safety and compassion and empathy from a provider? Of course, but I'm the one saying to my parts, I know that was really hard or I know that was traumatic or I know that left a deep impact on you.

I trust any skilled IFS therapist to work with adoption even without specific training, though, of course, that's ideal.

Haley Radke: I was going to say, because so much of it is yourself doing your own kind of work with you present as a therapist, it's like they're learning from you as well, right?

So it's not like traditional therapy where they're not supposed to give you advice but, you know, you're having a conversation and they may steer you in a different direction if they don't realize that adoption is a trauma.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. And we emphasize so strongly in training space, so strongly, that the most important thing when providers are learning this model is to be in their own IFS therapy, to be doing their own work.

We learn it by doing our own work. Half of training, if not more, is them doing their own work in a safe space and learning this really by doing it. And so part of the training, too, is us being in touch with our parts, noticing them.

I will speak for parts in session, but it's very clear. I will say a part of me just felt this. I don't know if that's mine or that's yours or, does that resonate? It might be my part just reacting. So we use modeling in that way. We use transparency in that way, even up through a rift or something that can go awry.

I've had repairs with past IFS therapists that have been extremely powerful. When I come back the next week and say, this didn't feel good to me, and the therapist says, I'm so sorry, I definitely had a part come in that wanted to rescue you or wanted to caretake you, or whatever the thing was, and then we get to do this repair around it, which also shows the power of this in relationships, and there's so much safety in that.

And I'll give you another example of what you were just saying, which is I recently started with a new IFS therapist. A big fear that I have is that my therapist will align with my adoptive parents. I think that's a fear that a lot of us carry when starting with someone new.

Is it going to be safe for me to unpack these really complicated feelings that I have about my adoptive parents? And he got it within the first session. I was describing this sensation in my body and he reflected back to me: It sounds like she's really dangerous to you. And just this wave of calm went over my whole body.

Okay, I don't have to worry. He doesn't have any parts that are aligning with them. I'm safe here and I can say the really difficult stuff and I can be honest about what's happening inside of me.

Haley Radke: I could tell there could be this pressure to pretend otherwise. And you can't do the work if you're pretending. Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. Right. Exactly.

Haley Radke: Okay. Wow. Thanks Marta. That was really in depth and I think I got a really good picture of what IFS is and can do. Is there anything that we didn't touch on that you really feel is important to tell adoptees in particular?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I'm gonna think about that for one moment.

I think that you can do it. That's from a cheerleader part of me. You can do this, you can do this work. You can reparent yourself in a way that you weren't parented and you are capable of doing your own healing.

You have this force inside of you that's capable of facilitating the healing. You may need a little help learning how to do that, but you are capable and all of your parts are positively intentioned and beautiful and welcome.

Haley Radke: Oh, that gave me a nice feeling. Thank you, thank you. I think that was really helpful. I think that people who this kind of speaks to, I'm sure there's gonna be a few that this really speaks to, can go check out the website. As you said, it's going to be in the show notes to find an IFS therapist, but how can they connect with you?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Those links will be there as well. My personal email as well as my professional website. And I'm available for therapeutic work and consultation. Also, if there's any therapists that don't specialize, I do that work a little bit, as well, educating other therapists. I'm available for that. And the other thing I would just say about looking for an IFS therapist, there's a bookstore on there.

And if you want to start your reading about IFS, if you're curious about this, my strongest recommendation is to start with You Are The One You've Been Waiting For by Richard Schwartz, the creator of IFS. It's technically about couples work, but it was my first IFS book and it's what I start all my clients on because I think it's a really great mix of layman's and clinical terms and examples. I just think it's a really nice starter roadmap and whether you're in or out of relationship, I think it's really useful.

Haley Radke: Okay. That sounds like a great resource to check out. And just even if you're wanting to dip your toe in and you're not quite sure if this might be right for you.

Awesome. Thank you. Thanks so much Marta. It was a pleasure chatting with you. Thanks for teaching us about Internal Family Systems.

I wanted to let you know what's happening for the next few episodes of Adoptees On. It's almost like a little mini-series. So today Marta talked to us about IFS therapy.

Next week I have an adoptee coming on who is married to an adoptee. So we're talking about their relationship and the special connection here is that she already does IFS therapy and her husband does as well.

So we talk a little bit about how that has impacted their relationship and the things that they've learned through IFS. That's a really cool connection.

And then after that, I've invited Marta back and we talk about romantic relationships through the lens of IFS. But also just romantic relationships as adoptees. The things that we struggle with and things that we can work on with our partners.

So that's what's coming up in the next couple weeks for the podcast. And I also just wanted to let you know that I have a monthly newsletter that you can sign up for to stay connected with me and for news about the show. Adopteeson.com/newsletter has the details for that.

And the very last thing for today. Would you consider partnering with me financially to help cover the production costs of the show? It is such an honor to be able to do this work for you, and I'm so thankful for all of you who are already partnered with me and supporting the show monthly or with one-time gifts.

You are making it possible for me to carry on this work with you. So if that is something that you have been thinking about, oh yeah, I should sign up for Haley's Patreon. I'd love to join the Secret Facebook group, or I want access to the extra unedited versions of the show.

If that's something that you've been on the fence for, I'd invite you to consider signing up today. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details for monthly support. And if you're able to give a one-time gift, adopteeson.com, right in the homepage, has a little spot for one-time donation. Both of those things help sustain the show, and I'm so grateful for your support.

Thank you so much, and thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

68 Amy and Fleurette - This Is Our Normal

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/68

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported.

You're listening to Adoptees On. The podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is season four, episode eight. Amy and Fleurette. I'm your host, Haley Radke. It's my honor to bring you today's guests, Fleurette and Amy, a mother and daughter duo. We talk about the unusual circumstances surrounding Amy's adoption, the disappointment they both felt after their first official in-person meeting, how bringing grandkids into the equation shifted their relationship and how many years it took them before they felt their reunion relationship was quote unquote normal. Spoiler alert, it was a long time. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, Adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.[00:01:00]

Well, I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On two guests today, Amy and Fleurette. Welcome ladies.

Amy: Thank you.

Fleurette: Thank you.

Haley Radke: I have had the pleasure of meeting Amy in person and I've spoken to you Fleurette before, but I'd love to introduce you to my listeners, but why don't we start out, Amy, would you share your story with us?

Amy: I was adopted in, um, January of 1980 in Saskatoon, in Saskatchewan. I was adopted by a family from a small farming town, and I was the oldest, and then they later adopted my sister, who's three years younger. I grew up on a farm and, um, just grew up in like, just a small town, farm life. Um, had lots of cousins, lots of aunts and uncles, went to a small school. I always knew I was adopted. As long as I can [00:02:00] remember. I don't actually really remember how my parents told me. I just always just knew and I, I don't know if I knew what that was, even for the longest time until I was older, but I always knew that I was adopted and yeah, so just really grew up in a, in a typical family.

When I was 16, my younger sister, she started asking my parents about her birth family and if just inquiring and being curious about her, who her mom might be. Um, and just asked a lot of questions. And at that point, I don't think I had really, I had never really asked much about my adoption or had really inquired about it. I, I think I probably thought about it, but just not, not a ton. And so when my sister started asking questions, my mom said, you know, yeah, you actually, we did get some non-identifying information for the both of you when you were adopted, and we [00:03:00] have it in the safety deposit box and you know, we're happy to share that information with you if you want it. So when my dad went into town the next time he went to the credit union and they got the non-identifying information, brought it home that evening.

And so my sister was adopted three years after I was, so we were, it was both closed adoptions. Her information had a lot more detail than mine did. Um, just I think because she was adopted three years later and maybe there was more information to be had then. Anyway, all I said was, wow, she has a lot more information than I do. And I don't know, I guess my mom thought that that was her entry to say, well, actually we could tell you more about your mom if you wanted to know and I didn't really know what that meant. And so I said, well, what do you mean? And she said, well, we, we could tell you who your mom is and so I was like, okay, well, I was not [00:04:00] expecting that to come from this conversation. I just thought maybe there was some more information about like, you know, demographic type stuff, not who she actually was.

Haley Radke: Right.

Amy: I just remember thinking like, and saying like, well, I don't, what do you mean like, you know who she is? And so my mom and dad proceeded to tell me that when I was adopted, it was a closed adoption through the government. Um, when they signed the papers for me, they received papers. Obviously not, they were not supposed to receive the papers, but it had my name on there with my last name as well as my mom's name on the paper.

Haley Radke: So you're identifying information was on there and they were given that by mistake.

Amy: Yes, they were. And so they'd already waited quite a long time to adopt a, a baby. Like I think it was about five years by that time. And so my mom said they saw the name [00:05:00] and they didn't say anything because they didn't want me to be not adopted to them, you know?

So my birth mom happened to be my adopted dad's first cousin. Closed adoptions back then, I don't really, I can't really speak to what they are now, but mom, my mom said that they did very thorough background checks on my parents. So family trees, you know, friends, because they did not want for this reason to have a child adopted to a family member.

And so obviously someone dropped the ball. I don't know who it was, but somebody and somebody dropped the ball and, um, anyways, yeah, so my parents knew who my mom was and I, like, my dad is quite a bit older than Fleurette, so, you know, they weren't super close. They weren't from the same town, but they're, they obviously knew each other and, you know, families knew each other, so.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Amy: Yeah. So my parents never said [00:06:00] anything, and then they decided when I was 16 that I think it was just like a weight off my mom's chest to tell me who she was. So that was really, like, I remember feeling extremely kind of like the wind had been, you know, knocked out of me. Like, it was just kind of like weird, you know, because it was something that I had never really thought about a ton or, and then all of a sudden everything was just kind of like piled on my plate.

So after that, I didn't, I didn't really speak about it again for a year. So the following year when I was 17, uh, there was a family reunion that was happening in the town that Fleurette is from, and the rest of my extended family. And so my parents made me go to this reunion and I didn't really want to go. So I, I just couldn't quite voice why I didn't want to go, because I just, I didn't feel really comfortable [00:07:00] talking about it at that point. It was still something really difficult for me to talk about. And so I finally was able to voice to my mom, like the day before we went that, you know, I really, I really don't want to go to this reunion. And she asked me, you know, why don't you want to go? And I said, well, you know, like, what if she's there? Like, what if she's there? And I like, how, what am I supposed to do if she's there? And so my mom just said, you know, like, I'm so sorry. You know, we, we just really have always known that, who you were and that you were her daughter. And so we didn't even, you know, put it together that this, we would be worried about it, you know, we've just kind of always lived with it. So, um, she said, you know, if we go and it's too difficult and, you know, we can go home early or whatever.

So yeah, we went to this family reunion and um, I think we were there for like a total of 20 minutes. We pulled up and I was getting out of the vehicle and I was getting my shoes, I think out of the vehicle and this other vehicle pulled up not far from us, and this woman and this man got [00:08:00] out of the vehicle and I just innocently asked my mom like, oh, like who's that? Just because, you know, of course aside from your own immediate family, you don't really know anybody at a family reunion. And uh, my mom said, well, actually that's your mom.

And so, yeah, I saw her for the first time and yeah, it was just very, uh, weird, obviously. For the rest of the weekend I had to go through the whole weekend just pretending like I didn't know who she was and like sitting across from her eating or whatever it might be, like all weekend. I saw her all weekend and um, yeah, I didn't, I couldn't say, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't go over to her obviously I never would have anyways, but it was just obviously very traumatizing and I don't think I realized the level of trauma till much later, but yeah.

So then shortly after that reunion when I went [00:09:00] home, it was like, um, I'm sure people can relate that are adopted, but you know, for a long time I just, I knew I had a birth mom and I knew I had, you know, family out there, but it's almost like they don't really exist because it's hard to imagine. And then when you actually see, you know, because I saw her, and not only did I see her, but I saw, you know, my grandma and, um, my aunts and uncles and my cousins who were younger than me and it was just like, I couldn't put that away anywhere, you know? So when we got home, I said to my mom, you know, I just feel like I need to do something about this, and I'm not really sure what, but I feel like I need to at least reach out or something. I, I didn't actually really know to start, because I was only 18 at the time. And so my mom said, you know, I can, why don't I phone your grandma who is Fleurette’s mom? And she said, I am almost positive in my heart that she also knows deep down who you are. And so if I phone [00:10:00] her first, and, you know, tell her she's probably not going to be super surprised, and then maybe she can help navigate how we can, you know, reach out to Fleurette.

Haley Radke: Wow.

Amy: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. So let's pause there. So Fleurette is your birth mother. Fleurette, why don't you tell us your story?

Fleurette: My story. Oh, yikes. Well, I got pregnant at 17 years old. I had a little girl that I had contemplated what, what I should do, but, um, chose to give her up for adoption. I was 17 and hmm, my life was a party, so I really felt at that time that I couldn't give her what she deserved.

So I, I chose to give her up for [00:11:00] adoption. And I, I can't say I like, thought about it every day, but I thought about it often and definitely thought about it every January on Amy's birthday. I always wondered, hmm, she looked like me or not, or, um, what she was doing. And as she got older, I'm not gonna lie, I, I did have some concerns that there would be a, a child show up on my doorstep and tell me that I owed them, which I probably did, but yeah, I had some concerns of how it would play out if it ever happened.

Haley Radke: I'm just curious, did your family know that you, you placed Amy for adoption? Like did your parents know and everything?

Fleurette: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Yeah,

Fleurette: Everybody, so, and, and I guess going [00:12:00] back to that, back in that day, it was for a 17-year-old girl to get pregnant was shameful to the family and my, my mother since a number of times has apologized for that. And the more and more she knows Amy, which she's known Amy now for 20 years, she, um, she couldn't even imagine her life without Amy. Like she can't even imagine that she could ever have felt that way. But back in the day, that's what society kind of, they made you feel that way, right? They…

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Fleurette: They made you feel like it was wrong. So, um, I did, I, I gave Amy up for adoption and one, December Boxing Day, my mom and I were doing dishes and she says, I, I have [00:13:00] something to, to show you. And I said, oh, okay. That's great. Going back I, after Amy was born, anytime I moved or changed something, I would update my records with social services so that I thought if she ever want, Amy ever want to get ahold of me, it would be easier for her if everything was always updated.

My dad had just died of cancer just before that, not that long before that. And so that's what I thought she was gonna tell me that she had cancer. So we went into the bedroom and she said, well, I got a phone call and I got a letter a couple weeks ago and I'm thinking, hmm, I didn't update your records in social services.

So she just said, yeah. She says, well, it turns out your cousin and his wife. And I said, yeah. And [00:14:00] it says, it turns out their oldest daughter is yours. So that was very, hmm, that was very, like, it's shocking, right? It's kind of surreal because you've thought about it for 18 years and then all of a sudden it's right there. So it didn't really seem like it was real, but as soon as they told me who Amy was, I went back to the family reunion and I knew right away who she was because there were times at the family reunion where Amy and her cousins would be sitting with the adults, and you know how it is when you tell a story and someone, you're telling someone a story and you finish a story and they, they just keep looking at you and you want to say, okay, I'm, I'm done with my [00:15:00] story. So I remember going back to the family reunion that I would look over and this girl was just staring at me. And so, yeah, I, I knew right away who she was. They didn't have to tell me to remind me what she looked like or anything. I knew, I knew right away who she was.

Haley Radke: So, Fleurette, did your mom, did she know that Amy had been placed there, like did she have suspicions? Because I mean, the timing, like my daughter just had a baby and then my cousin adopted.

Fleurette: Yes.

Haley Radke: The timing is kind of uncanny.

Fleurette: Exactly. So my dad came from a family of 12, so Amy's, um, adopted grandmother and my father were brother and sister. My mom, my oldest sister, and a number of my aunts had all suspected from, [00:16:00] from way back, almost from day one, and I'm not sure how it is now, but back then we had to write a little bit about ourself. And I know Amy will say I wrote a very little bit about myself and they adopted parents, wrote about them. So the whole situation with Amy's adopted dad and his brothers and how they, you know, kind of ranched and it just was too, too much the same and like too much the same as the situation. So my mom and my older sister and, um, a number of my aunts all suspected that Amy was, but back then you, you couldn't approach and you couldn't ask questions and no one would, would approach [00:17:00] me for sure because I had no clue. And I had seen Amy, uh, I think three times by the time she was 16. I had seen her when she was two and there was another time, and then when she was 16, but I had no clue then.

Haley Radke: You said that you sort of feared this child showing up at your door sometimes, and then yet you kept all your information up to date with social services.

Fleurette: Yeah. Well, I did because it, even though I had a fear of it, it was still what I wanted.

Haley Radke: So your mom sits you down, tells you that Amy is your daughter. How does, and you mentioned that you've been a reunion for, you know, like 20 years, but how do you first connect?

Fleurette: Well, uh, Amy had written a letter to my mom. So mom gave me the letter. So I think it was your birthday, wasn't it Amy, January?

Amy: Yeah.

Fleurette: I called you. [00:18:00] I called with very much my husband, like, okay, come on. I said, yeah, I know I want to, but I was like, just a fear, right? So I thought, okay, well I'm the adult here, so yeah, I need to step it up a notch. So I did call and we chatted and then I think we talked another one or two times, Amy.

Amy: Yeah.

Fleurette: And then we decided that we would meet. And we did meet at my mom's. I was living in Winnipeg at the time, so Winnipeg really wasn't bringing her to Winnipeg. And mom was kind of common ground. Amy knew mom, not real well, but knew her. And so we decided to meet at my mom's place. She's small town, Saskatchewan. And yeah, [00:19:00] we met there one weekend. Um, my sister, one of my sisters and my mom and I picked Amy up at the bus. I flew into Saskatoon and then we picked her up at the bus and we went to my mom's. It was a very, very difficult weekend for me. I thought like Amy was amazing. That part was not difficult at all and she was nothing that I had a fear that, that I maybe created. So that was wonderful. My family was right away, it wasn't half a day and there was no, to them, there was no, not Amy in our family before. So to my family, it was immediate. For me it was, it was a very, very exhausting weekend. It was very heady. I did go home and, um, when I flew home after the weekend, [00:20:00] Dale picked me up at the airport and he was all excited to hear about it. So how was it like, it must been awesome. And I said it was, it was a terrible weekend. And he said, what? He says, wasn't she, she, she wasn't good? And I said, no, she was awesome. She was amazing. I said, but all of these things that you meet somebody like in the movies and you have instant connection and love and that's not, I said, that's not how it works. I said, I met an adult that yes, I have a con, I feel a connection, but I met an adult person that, and then feeling guilt that I didn't have all this amazing, like love for this person. I care, I knew I cared about this person, but [00:21:00] then feeling guilty and feeling shame and that I didn't, and yeah, it was very, very, a very confusing, difficult weekend for me.

I was very happy it happened. Don't get me wrong, but it was very, yeah, all the things that I expected of myself, I, I didn't have all those things. So I felt shame and bad and yeah, I don't know, guilt and wanting to feel something I didn't feel yet. And, and I say yet, because that was a long time ago and all those things that I wanted to feel then, I feel much more now, that and way more. But yeah, it's, it was not, it was a very difficult weekend for me.

Haley Radke: Amy, what was your experience of that weekend?

Amy: Yeah, it was also difficult for me.

Fleurette: [00:22:00] Mm-hmm.

Amy: It was a hard weekend. I mean, it was, it was so good in, so, in so many other ways. So, I mean, obviously super nervous. Like I took a bus by myself to, um, Saskatoon and, uh, yeah, Brett and my grandma were there to meet me and, um, yeah, it's just like she just said, it's not like you see. Or that I saw, you know, on when you, reuniting with someone and it wasn't like full of that. I mean, again, yeah, you're just like happy to see this person and it's like you're so nervous to, and you finally meet and, and whatever. But yeah, it's the same thing. It's like, I, this is a stranger, you know, to me, and it's confusing because you're like, you know, in your head like, this is your mom, but still a stranger, you know?

But I mean, like she was just mentioning before with, with my grandma, like my grandma was there and like there was no beat skipped. It was just kind of like I got off the bus and it was like full on, like hug and just so happy and [00:23:00] oh, that was really good. Yeah. So we went there for the weekend and same thing, like all my aunts and uncles came and all the kids, um, I call them kids, they're not kids anymore, but at the time they were little. So I'm the oldest cousin and so there was just all these littles and so I got to meet them and that was just so wonderful. But yeah, just so overwhelming. And I was 18 too, like, I mean, you know, when you're 18 and you think you know everything, you think you're such an adult and, you know, I wasn't, like, I was just a kid.

So yeah, that was, it was hard for me too because I, I just didn't really know how to navigate it and I, I felt the same. Like, I just, and then I thought she didn't like me, like when, um, when, when the weekend was over. because I'm like, I just feel like, I don't know, like, did she like me? Didn't she like me? Because I mean, now I recognize it was hard for her too, obviously. But at the time I was just, I felt completely overwhelmed and I [00:24:00] left and I felt so sad when I left. And I just, you know, it was just all these expectations that weren't met and I, and I don't know. I guess the, the expectations I had of myself and how it would go, and it just, it didn't happen that way.

Haley Radke: It's so interesting to me because I thought that maybe this would go a little smoother for you guys because, you know, Amy you are adopted basically into the extended family and so…

Amy: Yeah.

Haley Radke: You know, you talk about these similar upbringings like the farm and ranch and all this rural, you know, Saskatchewan kind of stuff and, and yet still like it's not quite, yeah. Wow. Well thanks for sharing that ladies, because I think it's so good for people to know like reunion is not like a TV show.

Fleurette: No.

Amy: Gosh no.

Haley Radke: It's so not. No. So here we are 20 years in. You guys are really good friends, you have a great relationship, but I'm sure [00:25:00] there's been ups and downs. We already heard a little bit of that, but Fleurette, can you think of a time that was just like really challenging? Like this, this meeting sounds like that. Did you have other spots in reunion that were challenging as well?

Fleurette: Oh, you know, I have to say there, I could list tons of them where it was so difficult. And I mean, I'm, I have been blessed with Amy that her and I have been able to talk about every single little feeling that we've had through the process. So that in itself is, is wonderful. And that it doesn't mean that every time she said something that I felt good about what she said, you know, when she told me things like, there were times I didn't like you, like I hated you. And times I thought like, why couldn't you [00:26:00] have just tried? You know? Like, not that she didn't have a great upbringing, and I think she did and I mean, that's for her to tell her story, but to hear those things, you don't feel real good about that. And there was times, there was lots of times that it was, it was tough and it was, you want to give up, but I had made a promise to myself that I, I wouldn't give up. And, and there's lots of times people treat you like, treated me, I guess for probably some of the most difficult stuff for me was treated me like I, I didn't have a right to be in Amy's life. That a birth mother, and it still is, I still have people 20 years later that I'll speak to and tell them about Amy and I tell her my daughter and, because she is my daughter and my grandchildren. And then when they find out that I gave her [00:27:00] up for adoption and that we've been like in reunion for 20 years, their whole, most people, they change speaking to me. Not that they, some people, it's not that they're rude to me or anything, but it just changes. It changes, that birth mothers and it still is that way, which is really crazy in our society because we think we've come a long ways, but there, it's still to this day, even myself at my age, at 56 years old and professional woman with children and grandchildren, people still have that birth mothers are, yeah, like kind of trash and we're just, we were just supposed to be, um, a vessel and then we're supposed to [00:28:00] disappear. So it's not, I don't think, maybe because of my age now, it's not as harsh as it was, but yeah, I got lots of, I didn't have a right to be in Amy's life and that you're not, you're really not supposed to exist. You're supposed to not exist anymore. So that wasn't always easy to take.

Haley Radke: So you said that you guys talk a lot about lots of different feelings and like you're really real with each other. Amy, do you remember some particularly difficult conversations where you shared something that you thought, oh, I don't know how she's gonna take this?

Amy: Well, I think I, I don't, I, I think that particular conversation, but I, I think that what she was just trying to describe and what I would kind of say similarly is it's been really difficult trying to find a place in each other's life sometimes, or where we fit in each other's life or where we think we fit.[00:29:00] Just like, yeah, I mean, I, I've been frustrated in the past 20 years at times just feeling like, and I now know it's because she didn't really know where she fit in my life. So she, she just kind of backed off sometimes because she thought that's what she should do. Whereas I was like, what the hell? Like, why are, why are you, like, what? Like, is it something I said or like, you know, just feeling like maybe she doesn't want to do this and she just doesn't want to hurt my feelings and say that, you know? And so just really wanting her to be more of a part of my life and, and feeling frustrated that I thought that she didn't and she was just, you know, not saying so kind of thing. Like, so yeah, like I've, I was frank with her a couple times, I'm sure. And it wasn't, I'm sure it wasn't nice and you know, I do feel bad about that now, but it's just like, yeah. That kind of stuff where it's just, I feel like it took us a long time to get on the same page. [00:30:00]

Haley Radke: So one, one spot I find adoptees who are in reunion, their relationship with their first parents changes, is when they have children. So Amy, when you had your first daughter, how did that impact your and Fleurette’s relationship?

Amy: Well, I think with having my first daughter, I do remember shortly after I'd had her in the hospital and it was just her and I, you know, after the, everything happens and everybody leaves, and then it's just you and, and the baby. I just remember thinking like, oh my gosh, you know, I can't imagine having to hand this baby over to anybody, you know? And I remember thinking that very clearly and just thinking like, I just don't know how I could do that. And so just really kind of putting myself in Fleurette’s shoes and thinking like, I don't know how she did that and like having, you know, being compassionate [00:31:00] about it, having compassion about it and, um, yeah. And I think with, like with my first daughter, I think that too, in that time of both of our lives, like I, I was going through a lot. I had postpartum depression quite severe after my first child. And Fleurette was going through a hard time in her own life at that time. And so I think it was, it was difficult for both of us, but I think after I had my second daughter, when things kind of were better for Fleurette, um, in her life and better for me, like I had a totally, completely different experience the second time around being pregnant. And it was just after that I really, that's when I was really like, I had a lot of compassion. Like, I just felt a lot of compassion for, because I sat here, you know, I have these two girls and I just can't imagine being in that place where I, I would have to relinquish them, somebody else and just feeling like, I am her only daughter. I'm Fleurette’s only daughter. And so just thinking like, this is [00:32:00] it for both of us. Like this is whatever I have for children is what she's gonna have for grandchildren. And so just really, I feel like after I had my second child, that's when things were really put into place for me. And I just thought, you know, I really need this and, and I really, I just felt a lot of empathy and compassion for her. And I think that's, for me, when things really clicked or changed, I guess, I don't know if Fleurette would feel the same, but…

Fleurette: When your first daughter was born that, I wasn't in a, in a great place personally either. And also felt like a lot of those feelings for me came back that she had grandparents and I really wasn't, I shouldn't be in her life. People are looking at me like I shouldn't be in her life, that this is grandchild for Amy's parents. And it wasn't, I was, I really wasn't [00:33:00] there to fit into that. And as number two came along, I have, yeah, it really changed for me. I, I felt better where I was in Amy's life. I felt better, I felt more secure about where I was and had got to the point of I don't really give a [expletive] what anybody else thinks anymore. I am in her life and she wants me in her life. So if the rest of the world wants to think it's a terrible thing, I don't know. I'm too old for that. I don't care. And my relationship is different. I mean, they are two different girls and I love them both equally. Don't get me wrong. I love them both equal. But Amy's second daughter, I am, well, we have more of a same personality, maybe that's why. But um, yes, I'm, I feel more like I'm her,[00:34:00] I feel more like I'm her grandmother at this age than with Amy's first daughter. I feel grandmother to them both now. But at this age, I feel 100% that I am Amy's second daughter's grandmother. No question. And it took a few years before I could feel that with Amy's first daughter. Because I didn't, I was at that same thing with Amy. People tell, looking at me like, I don't belong there. I'm not supposed to be there.

Haley Radke: Fleurette, can you take us through just like a bird's eye view, 20 year reunion, has it just settled in these last few years since Amy had her second daughter that you felt more comfortable and like you had a place in her life or did it kind of go up and down? What do you think?

Fleurette: Well, it's gone up and definitely gone up and down and [00:35:00] each like, well, I'm going to say each year, it's not necessarily each year, but each, as each year passes, it became more and more that we were, we were mother daughter and something Amy's adoptive mother did tell me way back and I, through tough times of feeling like I didn't belong, I would go back to it. And she told me one time, she said, Fleurette, this is our normal. She said it is not, because it had come to a point where I was really upset some one time with people telling me or treating me like I didn't belong. And she and I had had a conversation and she just said to me, she goes, Fleurette, this is our normal people don't understand it because it's not their normal. She said, this is our normal. She says, I knew my whole life that this is how, [00:36:00] that I would have to share Amy with her birth mother at some point. She said, so I just, this was our, this was my normal, this was going to be my normal life. That's not normal for somebody else, but it's normal for us. So for me, that's what I held onto lots of times when it was really, really crappy, I just kept going back to that this is our normal, I don't care if you don't understand it, you don't have to understand it because it's not your normal.

And so yeah, there was lots of, lots of ups and downs. Sometimes felt really close with Amy and sometimes we went through times that, not so much. But yes, definitely I would say the last five or six years, Amy?

Amy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, probably five or six years.

Fleurette: Yeah. Have been where I feel like no one can tell me Amy's not my daughter.

Haley Radke: Hmm.

Fleurette: Like she is my daughter. I don't have to explain [00:37:00] that she's not just my daughter, that she is my daughter. So yeah, probably the last five or six years for us, for me anyways, is where I've felt really, really like I belong the most, like belong all the time. Like I don't feel times anymore that I don't belong.

I know Amy has also an adopted mother and a very good adopted mother in my opinion. And I think she's a great person, but I don't feel like I need to take a, I don't need to take a backseat to it anymore. I don't feel that anymore. And there are lots of times in the last 20 years that I have sat and felt like, I wish, I do, I just wish she’s just mine. But yeah, so last few years, and I, I just want to say something about my family. I [00:38:00] am thankful every day, the last 20 years that they have not skipped a beat with Amy. There was no them ever, we need to feel adjusted that she's in her life. There was never, ever that moment from the day they met her, she was their cousin, their niece. She was their family. My mother was that long time before the 20 years. My mom was long time before that. She was, this is my granddaughter and so I'm very, very thankful my family has never skipped a beat with that. So very blessed with that.

Haley Radke: So it only took 14 or 15 years for this to feel like normal. Is that, is that right?

Amy: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Amy, is that, is that true for you?

Amy: That is true. Yeah. I think, well, you know [00:39:00] what though? I just, I just feel like this is a good opportunity. I'm so grateful, Haley that we've met. Like you and I, I was like fangirling on you and we end up, we end up living in the same city. And so we've become friends. And so I'm thankful for this opportunity because I think that when I do tell this story to people, everyone's always so invested and interested in it and people who aren't adopted or even in reunion and so I feel like obviously I know your audience, you know, or people like me. And so I just feel like this is such a good opportunity to tell people, like, don't feel like if things are not going well, that that's not norm, you know what I mean, like that's not normal because like reunion is hard. It is very hard. It is hard work and it is not easy. So it's just, yeah, I think that, yeah, 14 or [00:40:00] 15 years and I mean, I think now we have a really good, a great relationship and you know, and like Fleurette was just made reference to a lot of why I hung in there was because of my family, my extended family, her family, you know, aunts, uncles, cousins, and my grandma because they did not skip a beat. And I do not feel one ounce different than anybody else in that family. You know? So they've just shown me a lot of love. And so that was a lot of it was, it was great encouragement for me to, to hang in there, you know?

Haley Radke: So if, if you had been like, well, I think I'm gonna pull the plug, but I just can't let all these people go.

Amy: Yes.

Haley Radke: I, I mean, I'm just being honest, right? This is some of the things that go through our head, right?

Amy: Yes, absolutely. I could not, like, I, I did think that, I did think that at certain times, especially early on, you know, I did think [00:41:00] that more than once. Like, I, I just don't know if I can do this anymore. But honestly, I could not, I couldn't do that just because I just like, I love them so much and I, I, and to this day, I mean like I still have such great relationships with them and like, I couldn't imagine my life without them now. It's just not even fathomable to me. They were like a lifeline for me in a lot of, a lot of day, a lot of days.

Haley Radke: And Fleurette you had said too, like you had just decided no, I'm here. I'm in it no matter what kind of thing.

Fleurette: Yeah, I, I did and I, I had to tell myself that a lot of times. Because I felt a lot of times that I need to give up. Like I just feel like this is just too hard. But then you know what you got, you felt like that and then you woke up the next day and you thought, no, I I, that you can't give that up. And there is [00:42:00] so, like, nothing good comes without working for it. So I kept telling myself that, that this is good. And yeah, there were tough times, but there's also good times in those tough times.

But yeah, you, I, I don't know. I, I just can't even fathom the thought that had I given up. I mean, we weren't super tight like we always, like we are now, but yeah, that I just, I just couldn't, and I keep saying it, and I know I'm repeating myself, but I just, yeah. I, I, I can't even, the thought of that I could have given up is just can bring me to tears.

Haley Radke: And you guys have always lived a fair distance from each other, is that right?

Amy: No, we did live in Saskatoon at the same time for a few years. Yeah. Yes. I think there was about five or six years in there. Five years maybe that we lived…

Fleurette: Yeah, I think so.[00:43:00]

Amy: …in the same city.

Haley Radke: So practically speaking, how do you guys keep up your relationship? Are you talking on the phone? Are you texting? I sound like an old lady now, but, um, are you texting?

Amy: We we try to talk, I think we, we, we hope, like, I think we talk at least once a month-ish. And maybe I, I mean, we text a lot, like I feel like we text fair, fair often. Yeah. I do, I do try to text her, um, pictures of the girls quite often. Like. Which…

Fleurette: Which I love.

Amy: Yeah. because she isn't here, so, um, I do try to spam her with pictures of, pictures of the girls. But yeah, I mean, I obviously wish we saw each other more. Like, I am not gonna lie, I, I do wish we saw each other more, you know, and, and spent more time together. But I mean, honestly, it is what it is. And, you know, I'm grateful for the time that I do get to see her. Actually, I'm gonna see her this weekend, so I'm looking forward to that.

Fleurette: I, I [00:44:00] agree. I mean, I, I absolutely wish it was, we, I was closer. Like I am very envious and sometimes beyond envious, jealous of some of my friends who have their grandchildren near them. So I, I do and, and Amy.

Amy: Yeah. And me. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh, I, I know where I'm, I'm, I'm with my dad too when he's here. It's like, you know, the boys are the fun part. Yeah.

Fleurette: But I do, I do wish we were closer, but I, uh, we do text and Amy does send me, uh, pictures, which I love. And we try, we do try to talk once a month and…

Haley Radke: That's great.

Fleurette: Yeah. I would love it that I was in Edmonton and I could just be there.

Haley Radke: Well, I, you know, I know you guys have talked about a lot of hard stuff [00:45:00] this interview, so I really appreciate that. Thank you for opening that stuff up. I want to hear before we go to resources, some of the awesome stuff, some of the awesome moments, like the really great things that have come out of reunion for, um, both of you. Who wants to start?

Fleurette: Amy, you can start.

Amy: Um, um, oh gosh. Well, for me it, I'm, I'm gonna say it again, but, uh, I would say it's definitely, I mean, besides having a really good relationship now with Fleurette and like, you know, just having that, I, I do really love my family. Like, I love, you know, my aunts and uncles and my grandma, my cousins, and like, it's been one of the greatest joys of my life really, to watch my cousins grow up and just still be really close to them, to this day and, and good friends. And so, um, that's been awesome. And just having this great big, you know, like wonderful family to, to be in and, [00:46:00] and just, yeah, like I just feel after 20 years, like, like sometimes I look behind me and I just think, man, like I didn't think I was gonna make it a few times, you know? And, uh, and I did, you know, and I am happy about it. And so just I think that sense of like, feeling okay about where I am at and so thankful that I did. And I, I think what the great, another great thing for me too is like, I am super thankful that I did this at 18 because then I've had, you know, really since I turned 18 the rest of my life to, to have these relationships. You know, like it wasn't just, versus, you know, if I was like 45 or 50 and then just meet these people kind of on the fly. So I feel like I've, I've been able to create more time and space for these relationships.

Haley Radke: Didn't you and didn't you like celebrate at this point now you've been [00:47:00] in my life longer than without?

Amy: Yeah, we had a big party two years ago. Fleurette could talk about that. She, she hosted it.

Fleurette: Yeah, we could talk about that.

Haley Radke: Well, that must have been a high point. That's awesome.

Amy: Yes, it was. It was very fun actually. Yeah, it was just because I turned when I turned 36, then from that point forward, um, I would have been in their lives longer than I wasn't, you know, so going forward after 36, um, it was kind of like all that other time is behind me and, and every time or moment afterwards was just, you know, extra time that, that has kind of surpassed the time that I wasn't around. So it, it was very nice. It was, it was a really nice time.

Haley Radke: Okay. Fleurette, your turn.

Fleurette: Well, you know, I, I want to say ditto. I, I am very, very grateful for the relationship I have with Amy. And, and the more [00:48:00] I meet people and talk to people, I realized just how fortunate I am that Amy and I have what we have. I'm ecstatic about that.

And yeah, I guess the awesomeness of Amy being in my family without, I don't have to, I don't ever feel once that I need to worry that she's not part of my family. She, I'm so grateful that she's not different than anybody. She's not treated any different than anybody. She's just a part of everybody, like everybody is.

I'm grateful that my husband feels he, he has a, a stepdaughter, like he feels that. He feels Amy's his daughter, so, and Amy's girls are his grandchildren. So I'm very, very [00:49:00] grateful for that. So yeah, I'm just grateful for our life together. And yeah, I look back and think, wow, there were days and that was a tough struggle, but I also feel like that's done and…

Amy: Yeah.

Fleurette: If people just realized, hey, you know what, once the struggle's done, wow. It's just amazing.

Amy: And just to, and, and talk about it. Like don't not, like don't, don't not talk about it. You know? It's okay to talk about it.

Fleurette: Yeah. You have to, you have to. Amy, like I said before, Amy and I are so fortunate that we talked about every little thing, like, and more than once we talked about every little thing. They weren't always easy conversations, but yeah, just talk about it. Talk about that it feels crappy today or talk about that I didn't enjoy, I didn't enjoy that visit because of this, or, yeah, just [00:50:00] talk about it because you're not going to go like, I, well, I'm not going to go anywhere. So I just feel like, I guess I made that decision that didn't matter how tough it was that I owed her that, and I'm happy I did.

Haley Radke: Well, I think, you know, going back to one of the first things you said in this interview, Fleurette, was that I have to be the adult, I'm the adult in this situation. And so, I mean, that's sort of like the adult decision, you know? I, I think that's amazing. Like that you stuck it out and both of you worked so hard to build this really beautiful relationship. So thank you so much for sharing. Okay. Does, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanna make sure you get in before we do our, our, uh, hobbled together recommended resources?

Amy: Uh, no, I, I don't think so. I, I think just, yeah, like what I said before about, you know, and Haley, you and I have talked about it, [00:51:00] just being real about how you feel and, and actually exploring those feelings and not trying to stuff them down and…

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. That's important. Okay.

Fleurette: Very.

Haley Radke: Okay. So let's do our recommended resources. And you guys, you know, I ask ahead of time, is there any resources you have? And they're like, oh, your show. Your show is so great. I'm like, okay. But people are already listening to the show. Okay. Anyway, I'm going to go last. Amy, why don't you start.

Amy: Okay. Well, I'm just going to say your podcast. No. Um, it has been, honestly, your podcast. I, I, I came upon it and, um, about like two years ago. It's just been like a game changer for me, just, um, being able to hear other people's perspectives about adoption and, you know, just how they feel about reunion and how they feel about being adopted, and it's so validating. So that's been great. And then well, are you gonna talk [00:52:00] about our support group?

Haley Radke: I was, I was, but you go ahead.

Amy: Okay. That's okay. I'll let you do it. I'll let you do it.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Okay. Fleurette, what would you like to recommend or say?

Fleurette: You know what, I, I don't, I don't. As a, actually, I listened to your podcast and that's kind of how I got started on, you know, I've always been, I shouldn't say that. I've always been interested and always reached out to people that were either adoptees or birth parents or adoptive parents. And I've always been, it's always kind of been a passion, clearly for a lot of obvious reasons for me to understand. But your podcasts are what really got me reaching out more to people and trying to, I'm actually trying right now working on it a little bit [00:53:00] a, um, support group. Um, and, but I'm not sure if it should just be birth parents or adoptees, adoptive parents, everybody. So I'm kind of researching that. I do have to say there isn't tons out there for birth parents, or I shouldn't, I guess I shouldn't say that. None that I have found. And I would like to say to anybody that, birth parents especially, but anybody that if you need to ever talk, anybody needs to chat or ask questions or just need someone for a shoulder, I am more than happy to be that person. I, I just don't think there's lots out there, especially I find anyways for birth parents.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. So I went to the Concerned [00:54:00] United Birth Parents Retreat in California. So they're based in the US but they're a really great resource for birth parents and they have support groups across the US and I think a few internationally as well. And I'll put the link to that in the show notes. And there's also an organization in Canada called Origins Canada, and I think they were started by first parents, but they're also a resource for adoptees. So those are a couple of options for first parents to go and look for resources. I believe there's also a first parents group organized out of Vancouver, and so there's a few Canadian ones, but it's so funny y'all, because you know, you're not the first Canadians I've interviewed on the show, but by and large my audience is American, which just delights me to no end because, hello, I'm in Canada. Um, but I find that, you know, the US network just [00:55:00] seems like it was easier for me to connect with and Canada has just been, I don't know, I don't know what's up with that, but…

Fleurette: Yeah, I, I agree.

Haley Radke: I, there's little pockets here and there, but yeah. So if, if you're listening and you are in Canada and you know of some good Canadian resources, please reach out to us. We would love to link to those things from the Adoptees On website and talk about them on the show so people know about them.

Amy: Can I just say one more thing?

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Amy: Sorry. Okay. Um, I know, I know, I know Katrina Palmer listens to your podcast and I am, so I'm taking a minute to just say like, I love her book ‘An Affair with My Mother’, and I listened to her interview with you on the podcast and it was amazing. And so I am a huge fan. So I just want to say that's also one of my resources, but I know you've already used that as a resource, but I just, I'm going to say I loved it, so.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. [00:56:00] So yeah, it's been so good. And while we're recording this, we're sort of just about wrapping up Book Club. So by the time this airs, we'll have been finished, but that's been amazing. So if you didn't join Book Club, you missed out big time because Katrina has been in there answering people's questions and commenting like it's been really, really special. So I'm really glad I got to do that. Okay. I'm gonna recommend my thing. Well, you know what? This is so special for me because Amy emailed me, I don't even know when you emailed me. It must have been a year ago now.

Amy: Yeah, a year ago. Yeah.

Haley Radke: I probably still have emails in there from a year ago I haven't answered. But anyway, I didn't get back to her and then I finally emailed her a couple months later, which is about usually how long it takes me to, to email back. So just in case you've emailed me, I, it's in my inbox. Don't worry, I will get back to you. And anyway, so I emailed her back and then right away [00:57:00] she's like, oh, I just listened to your finale. I didn't know you were in Edmonton. And so we met up for coffee and that was like so special. That was the first time I had ever met a listener in Edmonton. I had met a listener at, listeners, at an adoptee conference before, um, but I mean, everybody was adopted there pretty much and, and so I don't know, for some reason that wasn't quite as like, this moment was like so special. And so I just have such fond memories of that and hearing your story in person and it was so powerful for me, and, and that's one of the reasons why I really wanted to start a support group in Edmonton. Not because I was like, ooh, ooh, Amy has some problems we need to work on. And don't take it that way. I'm, I'm the one that has the problems, but seriously, I, I was like, you know, we are just so great. Like, there's other people in my very own city that are dealing with similar things and, you know, to be [00:58:00] face to face in the same room, it's just something extra. So these, all the Facebook groups are great that are online and we can connect with adoptees that way around the world and that's really special, but just something about being in person is just amazing. And so we have started our group and the first few meetings were just me and Amy. So thank you.

Amy: It was sad. It was a little sad, but we, we managed to find lots of…

Haley Radke: Yeah, I don't know how we did that. We didn't just get our each five minutes, but we got the whole like two hours. So it's pretty good. But there's a little group of us now that have started meeting regularly. And so if you are in the Edmonton area, we'd welcome you to come and join us. And if not, there are adoptee support groups popping up all over. And maybe if there's not one in your area, maybe you're the one to start that, just like Fleurette is going to start something, right Fleurette? [00:59:00]

Fleurette: Yes. It's right. Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Well it's been so lovely chatting with you ladies. Why don't you tell us where we can find you online if people want to say thanks for sharing or if they have questions about reunion stuff, if they want to reach out to you. Amy, where can we find you?

Amy: Well, you can find me on Instagram. So my handle is ‘amynicrn’, so A-M-Y-N-I-C-R-N. And also you can reach me by email, which is, it's amynicrn@gmail.com. So same handle as my, as my Instagram, except @gmail.com.

Haley Radke: Okay, perfect. And Fleurette where can we connect with you?

Fleurette: Um, my email, definitely. It is ffg.gallais@gmail.com. Or I am on Facebook. My name is spelled very [01:00:00] odd. If you do wanna find me there, it's F-L-E-U-R-E-T-T-E, and the last name is Gallais, G-A-L-L-A-I-S.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. I'll put those in the show notes so people can, um, find it if you didn't write it down real quick while right now. Thank you ladies. That was really special to hear both of your stories and to get that little pic, that view into your relationship.

Did you know I have a monthly newsletter? It's a place for me to share my personal thoughts with you, things I wouldn't post in a public blog, and also any behind the scenes news for the show. All that good stuff. If you'd like to be among the first to be in the know, you can sign up on Adopteeson.com/newsletter.

If you'd like to connect with other adoptees who are on this healing journey, come and support me on Patreon. You can help me by pledging a [01:01:00] monthly amount that helps sustain the podcast. And as a thank you, you can join my secret Facebook group, which has all of these incredible people in it who are just like you. Adoptees only. We are navigating awkward reunions. We are searching, we are working towards healing and wholeness in relationships, and with ourselves, and we're all just going on this journey together. To join, go to adopteeson.com/partner and you'll find all the details there. Thank you for listening.

Let's talk again next Friday.

65 [Healing Series] Finding Meaning

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/65

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we're talking about finding meaning in our lives, even when we think of ourselves as a mistake and perhaps without a purpose. I also want to give you a heads up. We do discuss suicide in this episode. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Pamela Cordano. Welcome back, Pam.

Pam Cordano: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Pamela is a fellow adoptee and psychotherapist who specializes in helping you to discover meaning in your life. So that is the bio I have had for you for quite a while. But I am curious, what does it mean to you? Meaning in your life?

Pam Cordano: Yes. Meaning is my favorite subject and to me it's almost like the background music that's playing in my heart all the time. And this wasn't always the case. I can tell you how this happened, like why meaning became so important to me. But I can't do it justice unless we talk for three hours, but I can tell you the story.

I had a terrible infancy. I didn't connect with my adoptive parents. I was an only child. I was just holding my breath my whole childhood. I enjoyed college. I met my husband in the freshman dorm and I had some good experiences, but basically all the way until I was in my mid-forties, I think that I was really in conservation or self-preservation mode, and I didn't even know it because I think that I was just hurt and traumatized from my history and from things feeling hard that I really didn't know another way of being.

And so something really huge happened in 2010 and what that was, and you're gonna have to put your seatbelts on cuz this is a crazy thing I'm gonna say, but I had a therapist who was really dear to me. He was like the therapist for therapists and my friends, my colleagues and I all saw him and he looked like Robert Redford and he just seemed like a guru almost.

And he committed suicide. He jumped off a bridge, and this was mid-November of 2010, and it was so shocking to me that he did that. I didn't see it coming and there had always been a part of me, I think about our adoptee community and how prevalent suicide is. And I've met a lot of adoptees who have had suicidal feelings, even if they've never acted on them.

And I would say I've had that my whole life, where staying alive and investing in life felt difficult and hard and the thing I would do on my better days, and on my harder days or when I was really triggered or when I'd have a fight with my husband or something awful, I would feel like, what is the point? And I would feel like my life force would go out of me really quickly and I think that's an adoptee thing. At least I've heard that a lot of people say that kind of a thing.

So there were times when staying alive was difficult. I never really got to the point of actually in any way contemplating suicide, but I've always had a feeling that living is difficult and it's just, for me, it's just hard to live without having that support of generations and generations of my own biology and being split at the root, like the book title says.

So anyway, my therapist kills himself. And then, let's see, four days later I went to Esalen in Big Sur, which is like a place therapists go to get continuing education units and we take cool classes there. So I was in this group and there was a man in the group who was an AIDS doctor from New York, and I told the group, we all had a chance to introduce ourselves, and I said that I was in a really traumatized, not good place because my therapist had just killed himself and that my goal for the weekend was really just to breathe. Yeah, I didn't really have any other goals to learn anything or anything like that.

So we had to partner up with somebody, and I partnered up with this AIDS doctor, and he told me that his father had killed himself when he was one, and that no one had talked about it, and it was just called an accident.

And so there was this similarity in how he grew up not really knowing what had happened. And then he found himself going to medical school and being an AIDS doctor, and he started putting it together that here he was as an adult, trying to save the lives of mostly young men and it had everything to do with his father and trying to save his father who he couldn't save.

So we connected and I thought to myself, well, here's my therapist who takes the path of suicide. And then here's this doctor who lost his father and has this brilliant career and worked so hard at saving people's lives, and he's so invested in life himself. So I was just comparing the two as two kinds of directions. One's going into life, and one was going out of life. And I recognize both of them inside of me.

The doctor emailed me a link to the California AIDS Ride where people ride their bikes from San Francisco to Los Angeles to raise money for people with AIDS and for research and things like that. And so I felt like I had to do it, and I'm not an athlete and I trained for about seven months riding my bike up to a hundred miles a day.

And that the ride itself was 545 miles, and we rode seven days in a row with an average of 80 miles per day. Some days longer, some days shorter. And I've never done anything like this in my life, and it was brutal. It was grueling to be on my bike training and doing the ride. It was grueling, but for me, it was about two things.

It was about deciding I wasn't going to do what my therapist did. I was going to actually do what this doctor did. I was going to move more and more deeply into life itself. And then the other thing that was just crazy that I didn't expect was it was my first time really putting myself out there to raise money and to do something that was going to benefit all these people that I didn't even know.

It was really for others and that was really, as an adoptee who was angry and self-preservational and conserving my own energy, it was really new to open my heart to people I didn't even know and give to them. So that ride down the coast changed everything. It's like it broke something open in me, and this is going to be too long to even explain.

But it was after that I discovered Viktor Frankl who wrote the book Man’s Search for Meaning about his three years imprisoned in the Holocaust, and how he studied his own relationship with life itself when he lost everything. He lost his pregnant wife, he lost his parents. He lost all but one sibling. He lost his dignity, his freedom, his possessions, his future as far as he knew, and he still found so many ways that life was meaningful. Even though he lost everything.

And somehow that really resonated with me after the AIDS ride, I started to think about myself and all of us, everybody, because I work with people with cancer and I work with people who have had terrible tragedies change their lives completely. Deaths of children and just terrible things.

So I started to realize what Viktor Frankl said was that, even when we've lost everything, we still have access to the attitude we take toward life's limitations. And I thought about the AIDS doctor. He put his pain into service; and my therapist, he put his pain into himself, really, in ending his life and freeing himself that way, I guess.

There was something about service and moving beyond my own self into something outside of myself and serving something outside of myself. And to me that's what meaning is. And I feel like on a psychological level, on a spiritual level, I think that's what makes us feel better.

So I've studied Viktor Frankl a lot, and I started a group 10 years ago for adults who had terrible problems, like stage IV cancer and MS and paralysis and bereavement. We would meet once a week and we would cultivate, Viktor Frankl style, the things that were still meaningful to them and that they still had access to and ways they could transcend their own selves in service of the world despite whatever they had gone through that had obliterated the life that they once knew.

And I didn't charge them anything for the group. We were just trying this. And then we kept meeting and now it's been 10 years and the same group is still meeting every Monday and we're still working at this. And it's the happiest group of people I know.

It's incredible. So we've had a couple people die who were part of the original group, and then we've added more people in. So now we have eight people and three of the original five in the group. We do service projects and we read really cool books together and we look at opportunities to address things happening in their lives in ways that are more open-hearted and more expansive and less conservational and self-protective.

And I feel, as an adoptee, my relationship with meaning has opened a portal to a whole different perspective of what's possible. It's the thing I rely on more than anything really.

Haley Radke: I'm so moved by that whole story. You've talked to us about Viktor Frankl before and I love hearing what has inspired you to move forward into life. The impact it's had, like that ripple has started so many good things for other people as well.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. And then they have started these other new things for other people. It's crazy really. The ripple effect is just amazing. Like when we start to really think beyond ourselves, which I couldn't have done before.

I didn't have access to it. I just was too frightened and too angry, I think, to even believe that there could be another way of living.

Haley Radke: If you had to make a generalized observation, broad-sweeping strokes, I know, about adopted people, what do you think keeps us most stuck in this area and not able to see the bigger picture of meaning in life?

Pam Cordano: For me, it was just feeling really hurt and even disoriented in the life I was in. There's so many adaptations we have to make to our new families and to the world at large when we don't have that foundation behind us that's intact. It just takes so much energy. And then the trauma, and for me, there was a lot of pain of feeling like I didn't get along with my adoptive parents, so I was just consumed with my own, I don't want to say drama in a demeaning way, but my life felt dramatic, like, from fighting with my parents and huge battles and I had addictions, and everything just feeling really difficult and chaotic, like an inner chaos. So to me it was like I couldn't afford to really think about other people.

And I did that enough with just being adaptive and trying not to get rejected again. So it was like a defense, it wasn't authentic necessarily. It wasn't grounded. It was authentic. I was authentically a nice person, but it wasn't grounded because I didn't have my bearings yet.

So isn't it like Maslow's pyramid? People who don't have enough food to eat aren't going to be thinking about self-development or, what would you call it, healing the wounds. It's no, we need some food. So it's like that. Maybe this had to come later for me.

Haley Radke: I think about that sometimes, working in this space, and about how sometimes it does feel a little bit like why can't we just suck it up?

Because we do have food and we have warm houses, or cool air-conditioned ones if you live somewhere that's not Canada. And, as adults, a lot of us have gone on and gotten married or had children of our own and started new families.

Like, why isn't that enough and is it selfish to think about all of these things that are all of our baggage and stuff? I don't know if I'm taking us down a rabbit trail.

Pam Cordano: No, I think that's what I was saying at the beginning. I don't think it was self-indulgence that made my life feel hard to me, like I was a dramatic person or a self-indulgent person, or even a selfish person.

I think that I was just traumatized and overwhelmed by things that didn't seem as overwhelming to other people as they were to me. So I think it was honest, but this is where the culture doesn't see us as being traumatized, they see us as being lucky and fine. It's really hard internally to make sense of the ways we're not fine.

And to have a place to put it. We don't get that cultural support to help us become more fine. It just gets walled off and we have to deal with it on our own. So I think it's really legit, it's just that the culture doesn't, so it's easier for us not to.

Haley Radke: Fair enough, fair enough. You had a really huge event happen with the loss of your therapist in this very shocking way that's like this wake-up call kind of thing. But what about those of us who haven't had this big experience but yet are still feeling these things you've been describing, like not really knowing what the point is or just feeling, I don’t know, as you're talking about this, I just feel like this sense of being lethargic, right? Like you're just kind of existing, right? Just kind of existing, but there's no zest. I dunno.

Pam Cordano: There's no organizing push forward or something like that. Is that what you mean? I think growing and healing takes a ton of courage, and I'm a huge fan of going out of one's comfort zone.

Like the people who flew to Berkeley to do our healing retreat, I think of them as being so brave because they didn't know us. They didn't know what to expect. They didn't know each other and they got so much out of their own willingness to be brave and to try something that was an unknown.

And even calling a therapist can be scary. Because it hurts so much when we're not attuned to, when we're misattuned to by people. But I think there's lots of ways to heal and grow and experience oneself in new ways. It's not always therapy for some people. For some people it's surfing or it's riding a bike or playing an instrument.

I guess we're all different. For me, I have felt lonely and isolated, and I have yearned for a sense of belonging. And so I have tried really hard to have experiences where I can work at that. Other adoptees might have different focuses.

For me, it was about feeling like a misfit. I don't belong. A ton of shame. How do I feel like I belong on this planet? That my life makes sense? That I deserve to be here? That I have something to offer the world? That I'm not just a mistake that shouldn't have been here in the first place? Like, how do I move into being behind my life?

And not very long ago I found out that Viktor Frankl's original book was titled Say Yes To Life, but his editors made him change it to Man’s Search for Meaning because it was more, I don't know, academic sounding or something, but he was just writing about how to say yes to life. And I think that what I wanted to find was a “yes,” so that my “no” could just be quiet.

Haley Radke: You know what the other thing I find really inspiring about this whole deal is that you were in your forties, and I think that so many people that I have talked to who are just realizing that adoption has had an impact on their life are in their fifties, some in their sixties, and I feel like I'm on the young spectrum.

I'm just about 35 when we're recording this. That to be exploring this healing and all these kinds of topics that we're speaking about, but there's something so freeing and hearing that you were already in your forties when you woke up to this and it's there's still so much ahead.

Pam Cordano: Yes, there's so much ahead. I would never want to go back in time to my youth because I was so unhappy and I was so confused. And I'm almost 53, and I have this idea that my life is just going to keep getting better and better because I feel more and more of a yes to my life.

To life itself. Not just my life, but to life. And so that makes me feel like I feel free in a way that I didn't use to.

Haley Radke: What would you say to someone who's hearing us talk about this and it just feels too big, too overwhelming? This is a huge mindset shift.

Pam Cordano: Right. So what I say to people who I meet in my office who have stage IV cancer, or who are dying, or who are paralyzed, or who lost their child and none of that can ever change is that we can start by finding little things that we connect with that give us a sense of vitality inside of us.

Let's go back to Viktor Frankl. From the prison camps he appreciated sunsets. That's incredible and we can do that too. Appreciating something that's beautiful and doing things we enjoy that make us feel more alive and more connected, and telling stories that mean something to us.

Like the story I told you about the AIDS ride or working with attitudes that we believe in when we're having a hard time. Like for me, the attitude of curiosity. Curiosity is an attitude. So when I'm working and if I start to feel tired or disinterested or disengaged with a client, I know the first thing I need to do is get curious.

And I get curious by getting into my eyes and looking at them with fresh eyes and seeing them. They're here. It's a present moment, being in the direct experience, and then my curiosity keeps me really interested and then I'm more there and then magic starts to happen.

There's all kinds of things that are available to all of us all the time. And one thing that Viktor Frankl says that I love is that meaning is everywhere for all of us. And it isn't that meaning goes away, that we don't have meaningful lives, it's that we become disconnected ourselves from meaning.

And that's a really hopeful thought to me. And I believe it because then it's like it's accessible to all of us, and all we need to do is really tap into it, which is what I love to teach my clients to do, and myself.

Haley Radke: That's a light bulb moment for me, Pam, because as I'm telling you, oh, what do you want to say to these sad people who are in their fifties and sixties who think they haven't done anything and they're stuck and blah, blah, blah.

There's meaning already. We have to wake up to it.

Pam Cordano: Right. It's right there and it's everywhere. It's where you are right now all over the place. Are you in your house right now? So you have two little boys sleeping, is that right?

Haley Radke: Yes. We're recording this in the evening. They are asleep, yes.

Pam Cordano: And your husband's there?

Haley Radke: Yes.

Pam Cordano: Do you have any animals?

Haley Radke: I do. I have a little dog, Lucy.

Pam Cordano: Oh, you have a dog named Lucy. That's so cute. Yeah. And you have friends all over the world?

Haley Radke: I do.

Pam Cordano: And you have a trip ahead that's special and meaningful to you to San Francisco?

Haley Radke: Yes, I do. And I'm gonna get to meet you.

Pam Cordano: Yep. We're gonna meet, and there's stars, and there's the moon and the clouds and rain. And there's just stuff everywhere.

Haley Radke: I think you meant snow.

Pam Cordano: Oh, snow. Okay. Life is seriously like a buffet. It's just there's stuff everywhere. We just have to train ourselves to see it and know it and tap into it and connect with it.

Little bits of meaning lead to bigger chunks of meaning and bigger access to meaning. We don't have to feel all excited about life right now, we can just move into it bit by bit.

Haley Radke: Oh, I love that. And you've given us just our little beginner steps to explore this a little more. I think that's just perfect.

If you were gonna recommend, wait, let me guess. Would you recommend that we read Viktor Frankl's book Man’s Search for Meaning?

Pam Cordano: I would, and when you read it, here's the thing, here's the adoptee's take on Viktor Frankl's book. It's a short book. It's in two parts. Part one is his experience and part two is his theories.

And it's written for laypeople. It's totally readable. And he wrote the book in 11 days, right after he got out of the camps. And what's so cool as an adoptee is, people say, oh my gosh, the first part of his book is so depressing, it's so brutal. Yes, it is. But if you the adoptee like me the adoptee, if we read it looking for these little treasures we're going to find in the first part, that's what the whole thing is about.

He's not writing the first part to say boo-hoo, look what happened to me. He's writing it to say, look what I discovered in one of the worst aspects of being human. Look what I found. And then he teaches us how to find it too. So I find his whole book just miraculous. A lot of people say that his book is one of the 10 most influential books ever written.

It's incredible. So yeah, it's five bucks at the paper paperback store. It's easy.

Haley Radke: So good. Is there anything else that you would recommend as we explore this topic of meaning? Any other books or resources or anything?

Pam Cordano: Yeah, I write about this on my website and I spell it out maybe more articulately. My website has a section on meaning where I break it down and talk about a really cool clinical trial they did with advanced cancer patients, connecting them to Viktor Frankl's work with meaning.

And it was an incredible clinical trial where people who really were done because they were dying, they got a new lease on their life and they became less anxious, less depressed, less despairing, more connected, and really into their life, even though they were dying.

And so it's a wonderful clinical trial that I describe on my website that is really special to me. It's so special to me. I flew to New York to meet the guy who spearheaded this clinical trial. I was like, I have to meet this guy and work with him because I loved his work so much and I felt if these people dying of cancer can do it, then we adoptees can do it too.

That's how I felt.

Haley Radke: Okay, I'm gonna link to that for sure in the show notes. Oh, that sounds so interesting. Speaking of meaning and experiences and all of those good things, you have two different events coming up that I want you to tell everybody about.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. The first one is that Anne Heffron and I are doing adoptee retreats in Berkeley, California. We have one coming up in July, one in November.

The first one that we had in February this year was just a wild success. It was off the hook. I couldn't have predicted how amazing the experience would be. We have 10 adoptees, the two of us, and we just work like mad for four days to have breakthroughs in our healing process and to really utilize the power of a group to magnify a healing experience.

We're taking that to New York and London in January.

And then in October of this year, and in April of next year, a colleague of mine named Patty, who's a Jungian analyst, she and I are leading a group of 10 women on the Camino de Santiago in Spain for a healing pilgrimage to go and experience little ancient towns and walk for eight days in a row, and then meet up with an artist and integrate our experiences.

And the first one got booked immediately and now we're booking for April of 2019. So that's not adoptee-specific, but it's for women between the ages of 40 and 90.

Haley Radke: Wow, that sounds incredible and I bet it's gonna fill up fast. So if we would like to get in touch with you about either of those, where's the best place?

Pam Cordano: My email, pcordano@comcast.net.

Haley Radke: Perfect. I will link to that, as well, in the show notes on adopteeson.com. Thank you so much, Pam, for talking us through meaning. I can tell it's just so dear to you.

Pam Cordano: Thank you. It is. It's my thing.

Haley Radke: So good. Thank you.

If you are finding the Adoptees On podcast valuable, I want to invite you today to partner with me. I have monthly partners from all over the world who stand with me and help support the production costs of bringing you this show every single week. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details for that. Thank you so much for your generosity.

Also, I want to let you know that my trip to San Francisco is coming up. As Pam and I mentioned briefly in the show today, we get to meet in real life. I'm so excited. And so that's Sunday, May 20th. Anne Heffron is going to be teaching a Write or Die class, and we are going to have a meet-up later on in the evening for podcast listeners.

So I'm gonna be there. Pam is also gonna be there. I would love to invite you to come and meet up with us, hang out just a couple hours of getting to know each other in real life. If you're going to come meet me in San Francisco, adopteeson.com/events, as well as our Facebook page on the events tab, has all the details for you there.

I would love it if you would come. Please come. I'm coming all the way from Canada, so it's only fair, right? That you drive a little ways. It's fine. It's fine. It's good. I have goosebumps. I'm so excited. When Pam texted me to tell me she had booked a hotel room and she was coming to meet me, I cried. I literally started crying. I was so happy. So please come. You can be in on that big hug. Big group hug.

And lastly, I just want to ask if you would share the show with someone. Adopteeson.com has all the links to all of our show notes, all of our episodes, all the places that you can download and find the show.

And what if you share it with just one person that you think might be struggling a little bit with finding purpose in their life? I think that listening to Pam talk about meaning and just the simple little things that we can look around for in our life and say, wow, this is so valuable. My life does have meaning.

I think it would be an encouragement to them. So share the show with just one friend that you think might like to listen to this today. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.