126 [Healing Series] Surviving the Holidays

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/126

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today, we are taking your questions about surviving the holidays. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Lesli Johnson. Hi, Lesli.

Lesli A. Johnson: Hi, Haley. Glad to be here, as always.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, so good. I love talking with you. You're so wise, and give us such good advice. So excited. I realized that our last “Surviving the Holidays,” (our very first episode together) was three years ago. So it's time to give it a refresh, hey?

Lesli A. Johnson: Okay, let's do it. I can't believe it's–that was that long ago, but I trust your math.

Haley Radke: I double checked on the website: 2016. So you gave us some really great tips, and I have reposted that episode multiple times. And I've even heard (I don't know if you know this), a couple of different support groups have played it at their meetings, and discussed your techniques and given their members extras. Oh, yeah.

Lesli A. Johnson: Wow! That's wonderful. I'm so glad to do that.

Haley Radke: It's so great. So, let's talk about it. Navigating the holidays as an adopted person…I mean, holidays are stressful for everybody anyway, right? There's all these expectations. There's all this stuff to do. Your calendar gets full. You've got, maybe, multiple commitments and all the things. So it's not–I mean, it's a big deal.

Lesli A. Johnson: It's a big deal. Yeah. I think it's a stressful time for many people, and I think you hit one of the keywords: expectations. So I always tell my clients, kind of approach the holidays with–maybe you can lower your expectations.

Because it's a set kind of a setup, I think, for disaster sometimes, if we have these expectations that everything is going to be perfect, or going into it expecting everything's going to be horrible. Maybe a better way might just be to expect that it's going to be however it is, and really embracing some self-care techniques and ways of working with…activate triggers or activations in the moment. Sort of prepping yourself and having a toolbox of stuff to pull from.

Haley Radke: I love that. Okay, let's start with that. What are just a couple things that we should just have in our toolkit, ready to go if we know that something's gonna be a challenging event?

Lesli A. Johnson: Okay. Well, I think the one thing (this isn't necessarily a tool)--but it's the acknowledgement that when we go back into our families that we grew up with, oftentimes we're immediately catapulted back into that role that we were in our family.

And our other family members treat us like the little sister, or the little girl who didn't have good table manners. And so if we can recognize that we might be doing our work all through the year, our extended family members may not. So again, I think it's about adjusting expectations in terms of practical tools.

You know, I think we talked about this, I guess three years ago (like you said), but just giving ourselves permission to remove ourselves from situations that are uncomfortable. I think as adopted people, a lot of times we had to kind of go along, and I think as adults we, it's okay to say, "Excuse me for a minute." And take a walk.

Or if you're sitting at the table and get activated, do some real grounding techniques: feeling your back against the chair and feeling your feet on the ground, just to kind of get back into your body.

Haley Radke: All right. I think we should dive into some questions from listeners.

So Lesli and I both asked on our social media, if you had questions about surviving the holidays and we got so many questions. It's quite the deal, so we are gonna get to as many as we can.

Now the first one is actually–I thought we would start here because so many of us, even just thinking about this, we're like thinking, Okay, we're juggling our families and maybe we're half juggling bio or adoptive. But I want to start here, because there are a lot of adopted people who have not connected with biological family, or are estranged from biological family, or their adoptive family–either by choice or they have been disowned for searching.

I mean, there is a huge amount of adopted people who are just on their own and they don't have that extended family, either bio or adopted.

So one of the questions we got was, "Am I wrong for not even being around any of my bio or adoptive families during the holidays?" Can you just talk to us about surviving the holidays if you are not connected to family? That can be really challenging and bring up a lot of feelings for someone.

Lesli A. Johnson: Sure. I think that's a really good point, is that a lot of times people don't have family to spend holidays with, and so what can they do in terms of taking care of themselves? Are there friends that they can connect with? Can they do something special for themselves? So I think, again, it's that self-care so that they don't have to maybe be by themselves.

Or alternatively, I know some people who actually use the holiday periods to do things on their own; that they really don't want to be around other people. And that's okay. It's–I think, again, giving yourself permission to do what feels good for you.

And if it doesn't feel good, if you're–if there's loneliness or anxiety, really checking in and seeing what might help with that. It might be that it's spending time with friends rather than family.

Haley Radke: I've also heard from a couple of people that have challenges with the holidays, that they will plan a trip to just get out of there, right? Like they will not just do stuff on their own (in their own city), but they will take a trip somewhere and go to a nice, warm place and they can think about other things rather than having maybe some of those familiar reminders of staying at home.

Lesli A. Johnson: Right, right. Yeah. I think about tradition and people… I think there's sometimes an expectation that generations have to carry on traditions. And I think there could be some intentionality there–picking and choosing what intentions the person wants to carry on and which ones they…

If they want to start a new tradition, and that might be taking a trip over the holidays. That's, personally, what my tradition is now with my partner. He does not care for the holidays for his own reasons. And so we do go away. We go away for a bit between over Christmas and New Year's.

And that has become our tradition and certainly our family members. Some of them were disappointed, but you know, that's okay. It's okay. I don't–I mean, this sounds sarcastic and I don't mean it to be, but nobody's ever (that I know of) has ever died from disappointment.

And, again, if (and I don't mean that sarcastically), although it sounds bad. It's just–it's okay to talk with our family members and explain why we're not gonna attend, that we're not comfortable, or that we're creating new traditions. And it's okay. It's okay to do that.

Haley Radke: Well, okay, so one of the questions is "Is it really okay to skip or change traditions for the sake of my mental health?" So yes, you're saying it's okay.

Lesli A. Johnson: I think it is okay. And I think others would agree. That's not to say that it's easy and it's not to say that people who are changing their families' traditions aren't gonna be met with unfavorable responses.

And again, it's okay. It's not about convincing other people to agree. It's just about stating with you and using "I" statements: "I'm not gonna be able to attend this year because I've made other plans," or "I'm not gonna be able to come to Christmas Eve because Uncle Joe repeatedly makes me uncomfortable."

Whatever the "I" statements are, but that it's not about convincing other people to agree. It's more about just being able to talk about our boundaries and limitations.

Haley Radke: All right. Let's talk about those conversations a little bit more. Here's a question: "I haven't told my adoptive parents that I'm spending Thanksgiving with the other side (which I think they're meaning their biological family). How do I be tactful and objective when maintaining boundaries rather than being defensive?"

Lesli A. Johnson: Hmm. That is a lot of question in that question, and I can't tell from the person if they actually want to share that they're gonna be spending Thanksgiving with the other side (presumably their biological family), or not.

But again, I think it's important to keep in mind that many adoptees have grown up in families where they had to do a lot of work to protect their adoptive parents. That they've been kind of conditioned to be the good kid, the good adoptive adoptee. And maybe for this person, that's asking that question, it's an opportunity to have a real honest conversation with their adoptive parents.

And again, the question wasn't completely specific, but I think that, just considering that they're no longer…The adoptee grows up, the adopted child grows up. So that they're no longer that child. And can they begin to have those adult conversations with their adoptive parents that include some of the hard, but honest parts?

Haley Radke: Okay. Let's do this. Can you give me two different statements they can use? So one is, "We're not going to Thanksgiving because we're going to spend it with someone else." Or, "We're not going to Thanksgiving. And we wanna keep it (the reason) private."

Lesli A. Johnson: Again, just being very honest, "Mom, Dad, we have this long-standing tradition of coming to your house for Thanksgiving and…"

Again, it's hard because I can't, I don't know if this person is in reunion, and if the parents know. But that could be an opportunity to say, "And since I have discovered I have more family, I'm choosing this year to spend part of the holiday with them."

And again, it's navigating a new dynamic, right? Couples have to do this all the time when they have to switch between their family that they grew up with and then their partner's family, back and forth. So it's having that hard conversation.

And again, "Because I'm in reunion, because I wanna be a part of Jim and Donna's life, because this is important to me–I'm choosing to spend Thanksgiving there," maybe. And then if, again, it could be an extended conversation. Maybe, "We could do something the following weekend." Only if that feels comfortable though, not to appease their decision.

Haley Radke: And then if we–maybe they don't know that we're in reunion, and we wanna keep that private.

What's the phrasing that we can use and how do we kind of shut it down if there's more questions that we're not ready to answer?

Lesli A. Johnson: Right. Which I'm guessing ultimately there would be, if you said something like, "I'm choosing this year to do something different." My guess is the natural response would be, "Well, what do you mean? What's different?"

The best thing to do would be to say, "I'd rather not share. I'm not comfortable sharing that right now."

Haley Radke: Okay. All right. That's, I mean, I think that's totally a fair statement and I think so many of us feel like we do owe people the whole story or we–but we don't we can keep, choose to keep things private if we'd like to.

Lesli A. Johnson: Right. And I–none of these conversations aren't necessarily easy, but in my opinion, that doesn't mean we should avoid them. So it's, again, it's reminding ourselves that we're–that we get to kind of pick and choose now, and that we can be honest and we (again), we don't have to convince anyone to agree with us.

Makes me think of the episode that we did on boundaries. It's just starting to establish boundaries and people don't… people that we're establishing boundaries around may not care for that. May not care for that at all.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Well, so here's a question in that same vein:

"Normally my family goes out of state to spend time with my family at Christmas. This year, I want to make that visit shorter in order to also spend time with my biological mother and her family. How can I explain this to my adoptive parents so they don't get upset?"

Oh, there's the key line right at the end there. "We don't want them to be upset."

Lesli A. Johnson: Right. And that's again, to my point, is there may not be an explanation that this person can give his or her parents that won't make them upset. But it's being able also to, you know, "This year, I've chosen to spend some time with my birth mother and her family," and his parents (his adoptive parents) get to feel however they want to feel.

They can feel disappointed, they can feel angry, they can… Again, it's–we can't change how they're gonna react. But when it's explained in a way of, "This is what I need to do this holiday." That it can–it's again, we're not…

Haley Radke: You can't keep everyone happy all the time. It's just not possible.

Lesli A. Johnson: Right, right. That's absolutely true. A lot of times the holidays is sort of the one time of year that maybe we do see family in person. And so, I think that lots of people save up their hard conversations for in-person, because they don't want to do it over text or email (which is–that's a good idea).

However, maybe doing it during the holidays, when things are a little bit charged as it is–I don't know if that's the best idea. Okay. Here's a question from a listener:

"I've determined that I'm never going to have a non-hurtful talk with my adoptive mom about my feelings as an adoptee. I'm pretty 'out' [in quotation marks] with most other people, but I have set this boundary with my mom. I also don't want to hide my feelings anymore, but how do I navigate this?"

Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, so I think that's really wise. So again, it's practicing all these other skills to maintain, like self-regulation. So it sounds like she's already aware that she's probably gonna get activated while she's in the holiday, the midst of the holidays.

So, what are some things she can do? She can give herself permission to take a break, right? Whether that means go outside, have a support person on speed dial that she can call and connect with (someone who really understands her).

She mentioned that she had friends that understood her. Remind herself that this is temporary, that this period (and I think it's a good one for all of us to remember), that this is the period of the year, and it's temporary. It's gonna have a beginning and an end. And again, she can maybe make (if she's gonna be visiting her parents), maybe she can make arrangements to see other people. I don't know what the exact circumstances, but kind of balance it out and using the tools that she has in her toolbox.

Haley Radke: Okay. Thank you. Let's keep going. Okay. This is sort of a question about language, but there… Boy, there's a whole lot here. So let's see. Okay, let's see what we get to.

"I find myself using language like 'my family' [in quotation marks] when talking about my adopted family to my bios and 'this family' or 'your family' [in quotation marks] when referring to biological family. I think it kind of hurts them."

Okay, so this adoptee is saying, "my family" for adoptive family and "your family," or "this family," when talking about bio family. And then she asks, "Is this something I need to work on? It feels like I'm in between families, so any I give to one side, the other isn't satisfied. I need to figure out a way forward if I'm going to be spending more time with my biological family."

And then she's got a few more questions, which I'll get to. First, let's talk about this language thing. So I think she's feeling like saying "my family" is like the higher level of family, maybe? It's almost like a ranking? Maybe that's what the bio family feels like.

Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah. I think those are conversations to have with everyone involved. Right? So I think language is important, and at the same time, if we can talk about it in an open way… I guess I'm just thinking about–I've worked with a lot of people when adoptive parents, when their child maybe refers to their birth mother as "mom," rather than, forgetting to say "birth mother." And talking to parents and explaining, that they get to call whoever whatever they want, whether it's a first name, or if they forget to say "birth" before mother, then it doesn't have to have that much meaning.

Haley Radke: Or if they choose that. You're choosing to say "Mom."

Lesli A. Johnson: I would encourage this person to talk to everyone involved and find a language that maybe feels comfortable for her, but also maybe she can put herself at ease by expressing just what she did in that question. Does she–is there something there she can maybe unpack, too? What does it mean, "my family"? What does that mean to her? What does it mean "your family"?

And, again, she's saying feels like she's balancing. Well, that is exactly what it is, right? When you're in reunion, you're navigating two kind of worlds. But I think there's no–I think that it would be a conversation that she could have both with her adoptive family and her birth family and just say, "I'm not really sure what's happening here, and I'm still working on the language that feels right to me."

Haley Radke: So she says, "I need to figure out a way forward if I'm going to be spending more time with my biological family. Love is limitless, but finances are not. How do you decide who to visit and when? How do you be secure in your decision and not apologize for it?"

Gee, how do you decide that, Lesli?

Lesli A. Johnson: I don't know. I don't know if even if we talked for the rest of the time about that, if I could answer it. I mean, my first thought is approaching it in a very kind of mindful way of just sort of moment-to-moment, day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month.

And not making a big decision about how she's gonna spend…how she's going to spend future holidays or future time, but looking at it at each visit or each phone call. You know, checking in, like, How does this feel? Does this feel good? Do I wanna keep going and pursuing this relationship?

I guess by the tone of the question, it sounds like it's a newer relationship, so (like all relationships), just checking in and What does this feel like? And being aware of times when she might be making decisions based on someone else's expectation of her.

Haley Radke: I totally–this is what I was thinking. I was like, You know what? It's only been in my thirties (true story) that I have taken into account what I want. And so many of us, I think, have (just as you said before), right? We're trying to please our adoptive families. We don't wanna rock the boat, and yet you get to decide what feels good for you, and of course we have the obligations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

However, we get to choose. And I like that idea of more "in the moment" decisions like you don't have to sit down today and be like, "Oh, let's make our 10 year plan and what is the most fair to everyone and this year it's this family…" and that it doesn't have to be like that.

Lesli A. Johnson: No, and I think it can, I think relationships can evolve naturally when there is that application of kind of just like more of a moment-to-moment awareness.

Haley Radke: And I think you've already addressed a little bit about this, but "How do you be secure in your decision and not apologize?" I think that's really, some of the boundaries piece you were just kind of speaking to and some of the other questions and just having that honest conversation.

And you don't have to explain yourself, right?

Lesli A. Johnson: You don't have to explain yourself. And I think part of it is also being able to sit with some of the discomfort. So, if I decide I'm not gonna spend Christmas Eve with the people that I normally spend it with.

And I let them know that in a clear way, and they're angry, I have to then use my tools to sit with that anger, or that disappointment, and (again), it's not my job to convince someone to agree with me. And I'm saying I don't– it could be you, it could be anyone, but it's learning to sit with the discomfort of someone else not agreeing with us or (again), being disappointed.

Haley Radke: All right. Next question. "This is my first year in reunion. I've done my best to reach out to everyone and keep lines of communication open because that's the standard I want to set. But where is the line between setting a standard and bending over backward for people who aren't putting in the same amount of effort?"

Oh boy. I think we've all been there.

Lesli A. Johnson: That speaks, I think, to what I mentioned earlier about the idea of expectation. So, we're all responsible for doing our work, and we can't make (or even necessarily expect) others to do their work. So I think it's, again, it's taking, it's practicing self-care and then hoping that other people will eventually do their work or will get up to speed, but not having that be the expectation, necessarily.

Haley Radke: Yeah. And you know what I'm kind of reading into this question a little bit is, talking about bending over backward for people who aren't putting in the same amount of effort.

Don't you picture that honeymoon stage where you're, oh my goodness, you're so invested, and you're connecting with all these different people. And this could be maybe siblings, or cousins, or aunts and uncles, and you're figuring out all these different relationships and it's a lot to juggle.

And yet for some people they're like, "Oh, there's a new person. Okay." And it's not as big of a deal as it is for us. And how do you kind of like "right-size" that in yourself without taking it as a rejection?

Lesli A. Johnson: Well, I think (again), it's managing those expectations, and recognizing that reunion means, I think, different things for different people.

And if this particular person is saying that she's all in and she's being truthful and transparent. And bending over backwards for people who aren't doing their work. I might say, maybe look at that. Where can you put your energy?

Where else can you put your energy where that allows you to feel a little bit more fulfilled? Maybe she can stop, or cut back on bending over backwards if it's not reciprocal. Right?

Haley Radke: Yeah, I think, I mean, there's gotta be a point, right? Where you realize it's not reciprocal and then make that decision like, "Okay, well maybe they're not as into it" or, whatever, like that's okay, right? Okay. Interesting. All

All right, let's shift the tone a little bit. Here we go. Oprah's gift guide. No. What is it called? Oprah's favorite things. Yeah, Oprah's favorite things. Here we go. We have a couple questions. Lesli, here we go.

"What gifts should I send my birth father and his family? Do you have any ideas?”

Lesli A. Johnson: Oh, I thought I did not see this coming.

Haley Radke: Okay. Here's one other question. No, I, oh, just wait. It's related. Gift giving with newly found bio relatives. Yea or nay, help. Lesli's quick. She's quickly like looking at Amazon. She's…

Lesli A. Johnson: I'm guessing there's not…The search isn't gonna have “best gifts to give to biological dad.”

Well, I mean, I could easily use some help in this one, Haley, but I would say what I mean…I don't know, books? A journal-like journal that they can document the progress of their reunion? I'm really trying here.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. You're actually giving gift ideas. I don't know what I've–I pictured you being like, “Well, what's your budget? And think about what (sort of) you want to do going forward and what's your normal family tradition?” I thought that's where we were gonna go and you're gonna give us a list. This is perfect.

Lesli A. Johnson: I don't know. I would probably think, you know, something…It could be a book. You don't–let's say, You Don't Look Adopted. That'd be a great book, right? Then maybe a journal. What would you–what's your suggestion?

Haley Radke: I was trying to think what I gave my first….Well, I'll tell you, I have had some gift giving misadventures. So I feel like this is a little bit tricky. What I think is, it's okay to have a conversation about it. And say, "Oh, is your family–do you guys give gifts at Christmas? Do you do that? What's usually your price range?" I think it's okay to say some of those things. Because, as I said, I myself had some misadventures in that area, so I think it's okay to talk about it.

Another thing I did with my bio siblings–we've been in reunion almost nine years now. We started, we actually–I had the conversation with them and we started doing a gift exchange where we draw names and so… I mean, do it however you want, but having the conversation about it to set up, "What does this look like? We've never done this before. Do you guys give gifts or are you more an experience family? Do you just call each other on Christmas or whatever? Any holiday that you celebrate, do you (I don't know), exchange Christmas cards?"

This is another question: "Do I send my birth mother my Christmas card this year? She's never responded to me, ever." I mean, those traditions (including gift giving)... I'm gonna go default on Lesli, what Lesli always says: have the conversation about it.

Lesli A. Johnson: I think it's that you have a…I had that conversation with my biological family (which is my birth mother, Candace, and then her brother, and her brother's wife), and we just decided they're not big on gifts. That was pretty easy. But I think if you don't have the conversation and make assumptions, that's not a great way to go either. But the conversation, and then a monetary limit, and… I mean, it would be really hard to give something to someone that if, especially if you just are getting to know them, right?

Haley Radke: Well, okay, I'm picturing this: you are like, Oh my gosh, it's our first union reunion. Here's my chance. And I am a gift giver. So I-– gifts is my love language. And you plan it all out, and you have this thoughtful gift, and you send this journal that you can write back and forth and you send… And then you don't get anything. Right? Think about just how devastated that could make someone, so if you don't have the conversation, or even just be like, "Oh, I'm dropping your parcel in the mail today." Letting them know something's coming so that they know, Oh, this is a gift giving situation.

Lesli A. Johnson: Right, right. Yeah. And all that could be avoided if you have that initial conversation, right?

Haley Radke: Yep. And Lesli is gonna drop her 10 things list of: Things to Give Your Dad.

Lesli A. Johnson: No. A little bit. That's a little bit more thorough.

Haley Radke: Okay. All right. Well, I think that was our most lighthearted question. We have just a couple more, some heavy stuff coming up.

"I have the worst time with holidays. Growing up, I never wanted to go to family gatherings because I obviously didn't fit in, and I felt uncomfortable in my adoptive family. I no longer associate with them, but now I feel the same way gathering with my fiancé's family. It's uncomfortable and a huge trigger for me to drink. I'm a recovering alcoholic. How can I help myself feel more comfortable in family gatherings, when I've never fit into a family and my main goal is to be accepted?"

Lesli A. Johnson: I guess I'm thinking about again, ways this person can take care of themselves in the midst of feeling uncomfortable. So, my first thought was, Where can she get the support that she needs?

So again, maybe she has a friend, or a support her go-to person on speed dial that she can kind of touch base with. Does she, has she shared with her fiancé what her earlier experiences were growing up? The holidays that she had with her family growing up, and why they were painful? And can she let him in on that, so that he's a part of that so that he has an awareness.

And then what can she do while she's there? Again, some of these just very practical grounding techniques can be really helpful when she gets triggered. This may sound really silly, but just even breathing. And if you're sitting at the dinner table and you're starting to feel uncomfortable, but you don't want to get up and walk away, just start taking breaths. And it doesn't have to be obvious, but there's a little trick, where if you exhale a little bit longer than you inhale. So if you breathe in for a couple counts, and you exhale for–breathe in for two or three counts and exhale for four counts, that activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the "breaks" of our nervous system.

So it calms us down. Nobody has to see you do that. Maybe she can, maybe, if it's possible, she can attend a meeting before something that she knows is going to be really triggering. And again, having a person that she can reach out to. If it's not, if it's a friend or someone–that sponsor, someone that she can contact if things get really uncomfortable for her.

Haley Radke: I have a couple questions about that, I guess. I don't really know too much about recovery, or if people like, share that–if people would know that she's a recovering alcoholic? What are your thoughts on making sure there's no alcohol at the event? Is that something people do? Do they, like, reach out and say, "Oh, can we keep this a dry event? Because I know someone's coming that's in recovery." Is that something…? I don't know.

Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, I think it differs for everyone. I mean, I certainly know people who are in recovery that being around alcohol isn't an issue for them– isn't a trigger for them and others who it is. And so I guess that again, would be a conversation for she and her fiancé to have, well before they go to the holiday events, right? And if that's something that is–if having that around maybe it would automatically mean she wouldn't be able to attend if that was a trigger for her. But again, having this conversation prior with her fiancé.

Haley Radke: Yeah. And then the other thing is I was thinking like, do you have to go to things like this? There's always that choice as well, right? Have the conversation, yes. And say, "You know what? I'm just really not comfortable at big family gatherings. Is there one or two people in your family that you really want to connect with over the holidays? Can we have them over here for supper?"

Like an alternate way that she can still be involved with the family, but it doesn't have to be on such a mass scale. I don't know. I think that's a hard thing to ask for, but I think that might be a healthy thing to do. What do you think?

Lesli A. Johnson: Yep. I think that's a great idea and I think just even the wording of this question, “How can I help myself feel more comfortable in family gatherings? Gatherings when I've never fit in, and the main goal is to be accepted?” So I think that is a theme for a lot of people who are adopted. This idea of fitting in and I don't fit in. I would say now as an adult, finding places where you do fit in. So rather than trying to fit into places that you don't feel comfortable, find places where you really do feel comfortable and let that, let those places, and those experiences be your guide.

I think that's what we strive to do. I think in your work, and certainly in my work, is helping people find community. And whether that's an online community or in-person community. But those are places where adopted people feel like they fit in and don't have to make accommodations or, kind of change, or turn into shape shifters so that they fit in. They just are ultimately–they're accepted, just as they are.

Haley Radke: Right. And you can choose what things you want to participate in and what things aren't…I think I've said this a few times today, that there's this obligation and then there's all these events and things like…we don't have to do any of those things. Like we don't have to.

Lesli A. Johnson: It's true. I think though, and I absolutely agree with you… I think that has to be a real intentional thought process, though, because for many adopted people, they've had to go along. They've had to try to fit into their adoptive family. And so that's kind of a conditioning.

And so this idea that as an adult, Hey, you're right, I don't have to try to fit in. I can find places where I already know I fit in and I can say no, and I can… I think your idea of talking to a partner and saying, "I don't feel comfortable in big family events. Let's have a couple people over to the house." Or you could say, "I don't feel comfortable, but I really know it's important for you. So is it okay if you go by yourself?" I mean, some people might think that's horrific, but actually, no. It's okay.

Haley Radke: It's okay. I love that. Okay, this question is from a late discovery adoptee. She has a lot of hurt feelings towards her adoptive sisters who are older than her, and they knew she was adopted and they helped to keep the secret.

"My sisters have always been around me and never told me the truth out of respect for my adoptive mom. Eleven years ago, my adoptive mom wanted to tell me that I was adopted before she died of lung cancer, but I was four months pregnant and she didn't want me to be affected in any way. I know they love me and they wanted to protect me, but I'm still so hurt. How do I get over this?"

And so I imagine she's going to be seeing her sisters in the holidays and oh my goodness, this is like– Late discovery adoptee, this is like a life-changing thing. And this has just–she's just found out in this year that she was adopted.

Lesli A. Johnson: I think… and that sounds so difficult. And I think we could apply what we've been talking about this, for this whole episode is: perhaps (this year), a holiday gathering isn't something that she wants to attend. Making that… Checking in and deciding, is it something that is in her best interest this year? Or does she need a little more time?

If she's processing her anger. And it's not about, I don't think, getting over feelings. It's about moving through them, right? So she just may need more time to process what she's going through, and giving herself permission not to attend. If she decides to attend, all the other things that we've talked about: taking breaks, if she normally stays in the family home, maybe she'll decide to stay somewhere else at a more neutral place. Or if it's going to be…normally it's a week-long visit, maybe it's cut short to a couple days? Again, just permission to take care of herself.

Haley Radke: Can you give us some ways to say, "I don't want to talk about that right now?"

Right, because I think at events like this, there–especially when there's something like simmering under the surface, right? I think, sometimes conversations can veer into territory that we don't want to go there, because we're worried that something's going to erupt, right? So how can you say, "I don't wanna talk about that right now" in a polite way?

Lesli A. Johnson: Well, I think you could say, "You know what? I'm not comfortable talking about that right now." And you could just keep repeating that. And if someone doesn't respect that, you can put some distance between that person and yourself. I mean, there's, I think that's, "I'm not comfortable talking about that right now and I…" That can be adoption related stuff, family related stuff, politics, any… Imagining this year there's going to be a lot of people saying, "I'm not comfortable talking about that right now."

Haley Radke: Okay. That's great. There's another podcast I listen to and one of their favorite ways (it's kind of become a joke now), one of the favorite ways they just say, "Oh that's interesting. Can you pass the bean dip?" That's been, like, the way of getting out of those uncomfortable topics.

Lesli A. Johnson: That's interesting. That's interesting. Like that.

Haley Radke: I've never had an event that had bean dip at it, but I mean, I guess…? Okay. And even when I asked you the question, I was like, Ooh, how do you ask this while being polite?

You don't have to be polite. And even I–your answer is polite, I do think. But you also don't necessarily need to be, like, protecting yourself from getting triggered, protecting yourself from perhaps exploding, or crying, or whatever things that you might not want to do publicly. Like you'd rather run to the bathroom to have a good cry, or whatever. I think it's totally fair to just be like, "Nope, we're not going there right now."

Lesli A. Johnson: Right. Right. And again, the goal isn't the goal is not having everyone like us, agree with us, or be okay. It–that might make someone angry that we're unwilling to talk about something that makes us uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean we have to do it.

We don't– it's perfectly okay to say, "You know what, I'm really not comfortable talking about that right now," or, "I'm really not comfortable talking about that. Period." Not saying, “period,” but you know, not even inviting the conversation for another time.

Haley Radke: Right. Okay. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. The other thing I just wanted to go back to this late discovery adoptee that's asking a question. I think if you're able to, I think it'd be really important for you to start processing some of this with a therapist and if you want to (or if possible), you could also do that with your sisters if you're hoping to repair the relationship.

How do you think about that, Lesli? Having a mediated conversation with a therapist? I know. I know what you're gonna say.

Lesli A. Johnson: Absolutely, in any of these conversations… So any of these questions that people have asked, having that extra support of working with a therapist that gets adoption, that gets reunion, that gets–that understands family would just be an added benefit for sure.

And if her–it sounds like she cares about her sisters and if the sisters are willing to be a part of that healing journey–yes, absolutely. Great idea.

Haley Radke: All right, here is our last question.

"I was adopted around this time of year at a young age. My mother's Christmas gift was actually a paper stating my name had been officially changed."

Oof. Can I just say, yikes? Maybe this person loved this. I don't know. That for me is a yikes. Okay. Back to the question. Naturally, this time of year is more emotionally charged.

"I'm thinking about sitting my mom down and asking more questions about my story. I'm informed, but there are questions I've been scared to ask, but I don't really know how to go about it or even if I should, lest it trigger things."

Oooh. Okay. Now this question is one that I was sort of alluding to earlier when I was like, "Is now the best time to have these big conversations?"

Lesli A. Johnson: Right. Right. And that's a–I mean, that's a good question for the person to ask themselves: if already this time of year is activating for this person, maybe wait until after the holidays to ask more questions.

But certainly, if the questions are important and wanting to have more information, I think it certainly is a great conversation to have. But I agree with you. Maybe this time of year (around the holidays) isn't the best time.

Haley Radke: I mean, I think–I said this much earlier, when I was saying how this might be the only time we're in person with people. And so we feel like there's this extra sense of importance and Okay, now we can finally do this thing.

Lesli A. Johnson: Okay. So that's, yeah… If that's the case, I might suggest this person talking to (maybe to) her mom now and saying, "We're gonna be together over the holidays and can we schedule a time where we could go (just the two of us can go) and have tea, or have coffee? And there's some things I wanna talk about."

So kind of like laying the foundation for that conversation, and then be intentional about following up once they're together.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. I love that. That's so good. I didn't even think of that because it's…I don't know. I think sometimes when we–when this has been building and building, right?

And then you're at Christmas dinner or whatever, and you're like, Okay, now that it's out there, let's have this conversation when we're all three drinks in. And in front of everyone. Yeah. I mean, there's a time and place. Okay. That's so good. That's so good, Lesli. Okay. Thank you so much for such thoughtful answers, good advice.

I love so many takeaways. Is there anything else you want to just leave us with as we go into this season? Knowing that some things are gonna be challenging, we might be balancing a couple different things. Any tools or any last thoughts before we wrap up?

Lesli A. Johnson: Sure. I think it's just important to manage expectations, remind ourselves that this time is temporary. Enjoy the parts that can be enjoyed–put a lot of focus on those parts. Make sure we have our support systems intact, so we need to connect with them. And also just, I think, reminding ourselves that we can't please everyone and not everyone's gonna agree with the decisions that we make when it comes to taking care of ourselves and–but that's okay.

Haley Radke: And my two cents–You guys, I'm not a therapist. I podcast in my basement. My two cents is, we also get to decide what our celebrations look like or what our traditions…all of those things. We can start new any year and make our own traditions, our own celebrations. And giving some thought ahead of time to what we want things to look like, I think, is for… And what is within our own power to do. I think that's really been a healthy thing for me to do with my immediate family, especially. And I don't know, I think having those thoughtfully planned out things is, like, great. And there's also the spur of the moment, celebratory things we can do with friends. I think there's a lot of ways we can build in some nice things for ourselves during a season that can be so stressful.

Lesli A. Johnson: Absolutely. I completely agree with that. Yeah, we can't change others' reactions, but we can really take care of ourselves and it, like you said, there's–it's always okay to start new traditions.

Haley Radke: Awesome. All right. Wow, thank you so much. I loved that conversation. It was so fun, and I look forward to seeing your "Top 10 List" of things you should buy your new family for Christmas. Newly-found family, I should say.

Lesli A. Johnson: Perfect. I'm gonna start on that right now.

Haley Radke: Okay. And so we don't miss that. Where can we connect with you online?

Lesli A. Johnson: You can connect with me at my website, askadoption.com, Instagram at Ask Adoption, and Facebook at Ask Adoption, and Twitter @LesliAJohnson.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thanks so much, Lesli.

Oh my gosh. I love talking with Lesli, and I love teasing her. I don't think she's actually gonna write us a list of 10 key things we should gift, but that would be awesome if she did. Anyway, I hope that this was helpful for you, that you had some good takeaways of things that you can do to navigate this season, which is often a fraught time.

Anyway, I want to say a huge thank you to people who have been giving me something amazing, and that is their monthly support. Thank you. Without you, I literally could not keep doing this podcast, so thank you. I'm just so grateful. I've said thank you a million times. I'm gonna keep saying it. If you want to join them, go to adopteeson.com/partner.

It has the details of what you get as bonuses for your monthly support. There's even a whole other podcast I do. You guys, you're really missing out if you haven't heard Adoptees Off-script. There are some very candid conversations happening over there that are just too private to share on this main feed.

So adopteeson.com/partner has the details for that. I also want to thank those of you who share the show on social media. Those of you who have shared with your adoptees' support groups, those of you that have told one friend about an episode of the show that was meaningful for you. And that just means so much to me.

Adoptees On only grows when you share the show, and I'm so thankful when you do. And I can't respond to every tag, every DM, every email. It's just not in my capacity. But I do read as many as I can, and I'm so thankful for those of you who have sent thoughtful, lovely emails thanking me for the show. And you know who you are.

I'm just so grateful for your kind words. It sounds like I'm wrapping up. I'm not. We are gonna have a few more new episodes before the end of the year. I will let you know when our wrap-up date is, and then when you can expect new episodes back. I'm gonna guess mid-January. So thanks so much for listening.

Let's talk again, next Friday.

122 Dr. Tracy Carlis

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/122

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 122: Dr. Tracy Carlis. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Dr. Carlis is a clinical psychologist who I've had the absolute honor of learning from in person, two times, and today I'm thrilled to introduce you to her.

She shares her personal story of search and reunion with some DNA search updates that have just happened this year. Then, we are really going to take a turn in the conversation and focus in on her work in forensic psychology in the area of adoptee parricide. Yeah, that means we are talking about adoptees who have killed their adoptive parents.

We are gonna discuss violence graphically. At some points during this episode, there's also a mention of sexual violence, so please make sure you're listening without little ears around, and that you're in a safe headspace if that topic is difficult for you. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and as always, links to everything we'll be mentioning today are on the website, adopteeson.com.

Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Dr. Tracy Carlis. Welcome, Tracy.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Haley.

Haley Radke: I was just saying to you that I have waited two years for this interview, and it's not because I asked you and you made me wait two years. It's because I saw you speak two years ago.

And I just thought, "Oh my goodness, you're so thoughtful and insightful and have such fascinating work (which we're gonna get into).” I’m like, “I have to talk to you." So it’s happened! I'm so excited. Can I ask you to start out the way we always do, and would you share your story with us?

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Sure, I'd love to.

So, I was adopted back in the dark ages–when social workers were telling adopted parents that you ought to tell your child they were adopted early on, and then once you tell them, you don't have to talk about it anymore.

And the reason that social workers at that time were telling parents that was because the decade before I was born, social workers were saying, "You don't have to tell your child. They're not gonna remember the event, so why tell them?" So, of course we have learned that especially through our dear adoptive parent, Nancy Verrier, that the child was there and they had the experience of being handed over to strangers and that they suffer a profound loss.

And that it's not in the telling your child they're adopted, but more that they had that experience. So, social workers began to get that. And I remember–I do not remember my parents telling me that I was adopted. I do remember that they told me something that was very big and that impacted me and stayed with me always.

I think they probably told me when I was about three or four years old. I was adopted into a Jewish family; I was also adopted… I had a younger brother who was adopted after me. He was two-and-a-half years younger. I like to say that my therapy career started when I was about two-and-a-half or three, where I had a lot of people in my family who needed a lot of help.

The story that my adoptive parents told me about my birth mother was that she was 15 years old at the time, and that she loved me very much, but she was too young and didn't have enough money to keep me. And that didn't make any sense to me cuz I thought, even as a child, "Well, I would help her. Why couldn't I just, you know…? I would've been able to earn money and I could have just helped her.”

So it didn't make a lot of sense to me. And also the fact that she loved me made me feel really frightened about their love. Because if my first mother relinquished me, then perhaps they would, too. So I did a lot of hiding. I had a profound kind of sadness about being adopted that really wasn't acceptable in my family.

It was not okay to miss my birth mother. It was certainly not okay to talk about her. And so all that had to be very hidden and repressed. The only time I would be able to let out those emotions was maybe when I was in the shower. I could cry so no one could hear me, or if I was laying in bed with my dog at night and I would cry into him.

So that really affected everything I felt about myself. My birth mother didn't want me. I thought, “She probably forgot about me. What was wrong with me? Was I not lovable? Was I just born to someone who abandoned me and never thought about me?” That really plagued me.

When I was about 16 years old, I got the nerve up to ask my adoptive mom if there's a possibility I could find my birth mother. And that created a very big scene in my home where my adoptive mother was quite upset and crying, and my adoptive father didn't like that when she was upset. And that question was met with some violence in my home towards me, and I moved out the following year.

When I was 17 years old, I left home. And while I had nothing and no money; however, I had been working since I was about 13 years old, saving up money. Cause I knew that one day I'd probably have to leave. I had a peaceful place. I had a place where I could just be myself where I could cry and be who I was.

When I was 18 years old, I sent for my background information from Sacramento, which gives you all of your non-identifying information. So they–on one side they told me that my birth mother was 15 and her family constellation. It said also on there, the circumstances for my placement, for my relinquishment. And what it said was that my birth mother had been walking in the park and that she was raped by a series of boys in the park.

And that was quite difficult to read. However deep within me, I had this feeling that that story was not true, even though it was really devastating to look at. On the side of the paper that talked about my birth father, that was empty because she didn't know which of these boys had been the father.

That piece of paper, I put away for another decade. I locked it up in a cabinet, never looked at it for another whole decade. Then I had a big crisis in my life. Actually, it was with my brother, who turned out to have schizophrenia. And I had always taken care of my brother and I, in fact, I was his conservator for all my adult life, but he also became quite violent with me and it was a pretty big deal and sent me into therapy.

And that therapist happened to be an adoptive parent, and she told me that I could search for my birth mother. Back in those days, there was no Internet. There was, you know, no DNA. It was sort of the old school way of getting records. And I belonged to an organization called ALMA (the Adoptees Liberty Movement Association), who helped you, like, if you got your petition for adoption, where your name was listed on it or the birth mother's name was listed, which was whited out and blacked out. It was–you couldn't really see through it, but they had the special formula that kind of picked up some of the letters and you could count the letters.

And so it was really old school kind of sleuthing.

Haley Radke: I love that detective work.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: It was real detective work and even though it was so difficult, I found her within about a four month period and I made that first call to her with a lot of trepidation. I didn't know how it was gonna be received, but when I got to the, the date of my birth– "Does the date May 13th mean anything to you?"

She started to cry and said, "Yes. That was the day my daughter was born." And we both cried for a long time on the phone together. And then we met a week later, and that meeting was amazing. First of all, again, it was before a lot of the technology we have today. So I didn't know who was gonna be sitting there, just that we were gonna meet at a hotel lobby and I walked in the hotel lobby and I sort of scanned real quickly and I saw one little woman sitting kind of in the back, all perched on her chair.

And when she saw me, she didn't know me, but she must have thought, "Okay, that looks like her." She got up and started walking towards me, and I started reluctantly walking that way too. And she gave me a hug that–I had never really felt a hug like that before in my life. You know, somebody who felt like me, who… It was just so embracing and big, I don't even know how to really say what a big feeling it was for me.

And then we sat for about four hours together, talking. And she told me that when she got pregnant, she ran away from home. One of her neighborhood girlfriends, she [my birth mother] asked her, "You wanna run away?" And the girl said, "Okay." So they....

Haley Radke: “Sure! Sure, we’ll run away.”

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Yeah. And actually I found that woman, too.

She lives not far from me, and I found her after I found my birth mother. But they went down–They, first of all, they dyed their hair black in the gas station parking lot and went down to the bowling alley and found a couple of guys who were heading up to Washington, D.C. and they hitched a ride.

And I think when the young men tired of the girls, they left them in Washington. And then my birth mother and her friend Tanya asked a man who had an apple orchard if they could pick apples and get a little money. So they did that. They'd go to the local liquor store and buy (what she told me), tuna and beer. That was my diet early on. And they would sleep underneath the apple orchard.

And eventually, they got caught by the authorities and brought back to Los Angeles. And when her parents came to pick them up at juvenile hall, they saw that she was visibly pregnant. And then the remainder of the pregnancy, she was locked up in the house. And she told me that the only time that she was allowed out was at nighttime. She could walk between the sheets that were hanging to dry out in the backyard. She could walk up and down there, and she told me that she would talk to me and she named me, privately, for herself. And then she went into labor. She was taken to the hospital. She delivered me alone, by herself. And during those years, new moms were kept on wards and all the babies came at one time to the moms and then taken back.

And she was not getting her baby, but one nurse befriended her and took me to her one night before I left the hospital. And she told me that she just whispered in my ear that we would be together again. And I feel like that really penetrated and impacted me, because when I did my search, although I was very scared to do it, there was some sense internally deep within that it would be okay. That she would want me.

When she went back home, no one talked about adoption or what had happened to her and she was not able to stay at her home anymore. She kind of went on the streets of Hollywood and from that point, she hooked up with a lot of people who were also down and out and living on the streets, and they told her, "Well, let's help you find your baby."

And when I was about four years old, she had gone back to the doctor that delivered me along with her mom and her grandmother. They all used the same OB-GYN. And her mother went to one exam room, and the grandmother went to another exam room, and the nurse left her station. And my birth mother went behind the desk and opened the file and got her file out and found my adopted parents' names.

And from there, she found me. We– At that time, we lived on a cul-de-sac and all the kids play in the cul-de-sac until you were called in for dinner. And she would watch me on the street that was perpendicular to my street. And interestingly, I had a dream that started when I was four-and-a-half that lasted well into my twenties. And that was that I would be playing outside with my friends and that somebody was coming to try to take me away and I would have to fly up above the houses to be safe and to get away, but I never knew how to get back, get back home. So, that was pretty big. Hearing all that–while it made me sad to hear how my birth mother had suffered, inwardly, it made me so thrilled.

It was transformational, really, to know that she thought about me. She mourned for me, like I mourned for her, and that I was loved and lovable. So it was really a transformational experience. Yeah.

Haley Radke: So did you ask her about your conception, then? Because you had read this terrible thing in your non-identifying information.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: How would you possibly bring something like that up? I did. I just told her that this is what the background information said, and I wanted to know if it was true. And she said, "No, it wasn't true." But she was so afraid to tell the truth that she lied and made up that story to the social worker. Yeah, but that led to asking her just a little bit about my birth father.

I said and I– When I first met her, I didn't think that we looked alike. As I'm getting older, I see myself more in her. But I asked her about my birth father, "Did I look like him?" And she said, "Well, no, actually, you look a lot like my daughter." So she went on after those years that she was in the street at about 20, her mother said, "You know, you've gotta stop all this. Here's this nice guy that wants to marry you. Get married."

So she did, very early on to the relationship. She told her new husband–I guess he woke up one morning, saw her crying, and she said, you know, “I have a baby." And he didn't know what to do with that. So he said, "You know, just forget about it. We'll go on, we'll have more children."

And I think that was very impactful in their relationship, not feeling understood and not having, you know, an advocate there. But he didn't know what to do with that. But she did go on to have three more children. My sister, in particular, was very impacted by my relinquishment because she and I are born in the same month and we look very much alike, and my birth mother had a very hard time. So, when I came into the picture, my sister (for the first time) really began to understand what had happened to her and her relationship with her mom.

Through the years, I searched for my birth father. My birth mom had already said he was in the service. And again, it was sort of this old-fashioned way of searching. I found some ships that were in port during the time that I was conceived and then this friend that ran away thought it was a minesweeper. And then I was looking at muster rolls and it was crazy. I found three men that remembered her.

I paternity tested with one, but he was not my father and my birth mother just wasn't able to tell me or remember who my birth father was. I think there was a lot of shame about that period for her. So it just got really buried. So it wasn't until I met you at that conference that– And I was speaking on, I think, disenfranchised grief at the CUB Conference that I met Richard Weiss, who does a lot of work with Ancestry and said, "Why don't you try DNA testing?"

So I did, and I got back the results that said that I was 54% Ashkenazi Jew, which really thrilled me. Because when I met my birth mother, I got my background information, said that she was Christian and I was raised in this Jewish family and I never really felt Christian. I always felt Jewish.

I thought maybe it's just how I was raised. So I was really quite delighted. I found a couple of second and third cousins, but I couldn't really figure out how to go forward and find my birth father.

Last year again, when we saw each other at the AAC conference in Washington, I was fortunate enough to sit next to Kris Gilbert, who's a genealogist, who said, "I can help you," and she did. And God love her, I'll be grateful forever. And it was a crazy story too, because my birth father had changed his name. There's a lot of anti-Semitism back when he was getting into the workforce, so he changed his name. So that was really crazy. But I ended up finding him and that was an interesting call because how do you say to somebody…? His wife answered the phone.

How do you say, "I think your husband might be my father."? And I knew on that conversation– So I had to go very gingerly, saying, "I found some DNA. I'm not really sure how I'm gonna say this," but I gave her some, "So-and-so is my first cousin once removed, which means that her mom is my first cousin, which means that her dad is my uncle." And there were only two brothers in that family. Which I kept saying, "So that means that… " (kind of leading into it). Finally she was like, "Oh, my, what…!"

Haley Radke: What decade are these people? In their…

Dr. Tracy Carlis: So my birth parents, my birth father and his wife are both 85 years old. And they had been married for 65 years. They were high school sweethearts, but they were disconnected for a very short time. And during that time is when I was conceived. And in fact, later that afternoon, she called me back and she said, like, "Well, exactly how old are you?"

You know, really trying to do the math. But this experience, oh my goodness, it's very new. I just found them; it's been a couple of months. I've only seen them twice–once by myself, and once I brought my whole nuclear family. But it has been absolutely the most transformational point of my life.

When I first found my birth mother, the first night I spoke to her, I went outside and I looked up at the stars in the sky and the moon, and I thought, "Oh my goodness. Somebody who gave birth to me is on the other side–somewhere in this world." And I felt like I grew roots in my feet.

Like I really belonged to the planet. When I first talked to my birth father, I felt– I looked at the same stars and moon that night also, and I thought, "Oh my goodness, I was born. I am like everybody else in the world." It was just wild and they have been so embracing. More than embracing! They love me like their own.

In fact, they— I call her number three, my number three mom. It’s just been like, “I thought my life was complete before, but since you've come along, I really realized how complete it is and how blessed we are.” And they just, in fact, they, they live about an hour from me and they're talking just this morning we're talking about they wanna move closer to me.

They have another daughter, actually, they had two boys, and they adopted a girl. That daughter and I live not too far from each other. So it's just been unbelievably wonderful. I'm just thrilled..

Haley Radke: That's amazing. I'm like a fresh reunion, like all these years later. Wow.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Yeah. It's amazing. But all that pain that I suffered as a kid really is what prompted me to get into private practice. You know, my practice has been…I have a full practice. I see a lot of people, but primarily, my focus is on adoption, my specialty. And I do a lot of work with families, so I work with a kind of a psychoeducational model.

I do a lot of work with the parents, trying to help them understand the special circumstances that adoption brings to their families and the sort of normal developmental crises that all adoptive families go to, which Joyce Pavao, you know, wrote about that. I try to help them understand Nancy Verrier's work about the primal wound and how that is everlasting.

And, you know, no matter how good the adoptive family, nothing will take away that first experience. So I do a lot of that and then I really help kids, and I advocate very much for opening adoptions. So I have to get parents to a place where they feel confident that, you know, they're the parents, they’re always gonna be the parents, but that this will be really important for the child.

And I use a lot of my own story when I talk to parents and I help kids really do the grief work and the reunion work. And so that has really fed me. That's been–I've had a very nice private practice that's brought me a lot of joy and, yeah, I've really enjoyed that piece. Oh, and let me just also say that–cuz I've heard some other people on podcasts that you know, what kind of modalities we use as therapist and you know, I have a lot modalities that I use: EMDR, you know, where we use eye movements, emotionally focused therapy, where we look at more childhood, early childhood stuff, voice dialogue, where we talk to parts of self.

But really what I think is the biggest piece of my practice is being my authentic adopted self. And studies have actually shown us that the major positive outcome in therapy is a good relationship with the therapist. So it's more than using any kind of trick you might have in your bag. It's just really the relationship and I think people come to therapy to be heard and to be understood, you know, to do the reparative work from childhood, where they may not have been heard and understood.

So that, too, brings me a lot of happiness that I can help other families and other children not go so deeply into the kind of grief and wounding that I felt.

Haley Radke: I love what you shared at the very beginning of your story. You know, talking about being a therapist, you know, from age two-and-a-half.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And, you know, even as you were sharing those things with us about those feelings that you were having and just the fact that you were able to identify them as such a young person and understanding like you had this longing for your roots and it's amazing that you've, you know, brought this all into–it’s not amazing, it’s of course. Of course you would bring all this into your work with clients. Absolutely. Okay, so you have this part to your practice. You also have another specialty. What else do you do?

Dr. Tracy Carlis: So, about 10 years ago, I was contacted by the Los Angeles Public Defender's Office regarding a case of a 19-year-old boy who had murdered his adoptive mother, father, and 16-year-old sister. And they found me and wanted to know if I would meet with him and, let me just say, the forensic work that I do is all death penalty cases. In California, the murder that I just spoke about has special circumstances, and that would mean that this 19-year-old was, would be a death penalty if he was found guilty.

His story…Well, it's the first time that I'd ever been in a jail, or actually…Yeah. First time I'd ever been in a jail. (I was gonna say prison, but it wasn't a prison.) I have been in prison, too. That's really daunting. I've been on death row, which is really, really daunting. So I said yes to the public defender's office and I went down to the jail.

The first time, I went with his attorney. But then I ended up meeting with this young man for weekly visits for quite a long time. He had maintained his innocence all through it, and the evidence was overwhelming that he did it. There was just no question. He came home late at night after being out with friends and his brother (adopted brother) was stewing about something.

The idea is that he came into the house and went upstairs to the parent's bedroom, where the father kept the gun. A wrestle, a struggle, ensued with the father. They were sleeping at the time, but he woke up and they wrestled with the gun. The father sustained one, non-fatal gunshot wound. This young man, I'm gonna call him “Brad,” he ran downstairs to the kitchen and grabbed a 13-and-a-half inch kitchen knife.

Parents came downstairs. Father was stabbed 17 times in the foyer. Mother was stabbed three times. The 16-year-old sister woke up when she heard the gunshot wound. She was found in the backyard with a cordless phone in her hand, trying to call 911. And she was shot and she was stabbed in the back three times.

Interestingly, adoptees, when they commit parricide, have dissociated from the experience. So that means that they almost don't know that they did it. So the next thing that happens is that they called 911 for help. "Something's happened to my parents." The police came out; they were looking at the crime scene.

They began to talk to Brad, and pretty soon thought that he probably was the person who did it and arrested him. I have been on eight cases since that. I've traveled to Kentucky, and to Arizona, and Sacramento, Texas… In Texas, I was on death row, which was quite an experience. Even Los Angeles County Jail was a very big deal.

You walk in, and there's like a cage. You first get into the cage, you have to leave everything that you have: keys, phones, you know, I was allowed to take a pen and my pad. Then when you're cleared and you're given a badge, you go outside of the cage, and then you're actually in the prison. And then they said to me, "Okay, well your room is down there," and I was like, "You want me to walk down there by myself?"

I had to walk past the medical unit, which had men. Each person in county jail is a different color, depending upon their crime. Like the murders, big murders like I was dealing with were in orange, but there was a whole unit of people that were in like a light green. Those were the medical people, but they were walking around.

So, I was instructed to go way in the back to a little room that had one little tiny window, way up top. (Not that anybody could see me.) I had quite a bit of fear that, you know… I kind of sized up the table that we were sitting on, like, "Could he reach across the table and, you know, strangle me or something?"

They brought him in in shackles, full shackles, feet and hands. I knew that if I was gonna be able to gain his trust, that I was gonna have to get him out of these shackles. Which was also scary, but I knew that it was just gonna be part of the developing a relationship with him. So after much ado, we did get him out of the hand shackles and he was kept in the feet.

So I met with him for quite a long time. But his dissociative amnesia for the events was so set in stone that he was really unable to tell us what happened, or admit to it. And he– The reason I met with him for such a long time was that his public defenders really wanted to save his life. He was gonna get life imprisonment without parole, that was a given, but at least spare him the death penalty.

But because he kept insisting he wanted to testify, they brought me in. And so I really did a lot of therapy with him. At the very end, right before trial, he finally conceded that he would plead guilty, and he did. So I learned a lot during that time about adoption psychopathology.

The way that I looked at adoptees while I did my private practice, where we look at what we call an object relations approach, an attachment model, a grief and loss model, was just not enough for this population. So I really had to dig and do a lot of reading about why.

And let me just also say that this young man had an IQ of 130, had never had any kind of criminal matters previously, was raised in a middle class family, you know, adopted a birth, wanted, loved. So it doesn't quite make sense when you see somebody like that and then you look at the crime.

Haley Radke: Well, I think one of the things you pointed out in your presentation was that we have this picture that, you know, these are people that have been abused in some way by their adoptive family and, like, this is their event. But that's not necessarily accurate.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: No. Actually, Between 2 and 3% of the population in the United States is adopted, yet adoptees are overrepresented in the criminal justice system, and the juvenile justice system, in drug and alcohol rehab centers, and were more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD, oppositional defiant behavior, conduct disorder, eating disorders, all those kinds of things.

So we really are an at-risk population and what I found was from doing a lot of reading and seeing a lot of these people who, in one swift cataclysmic explosion, murder their entire families is a couple of things. I wanna talk to you a little bit about Dave Kirschner, who did probably the most work in adoptee parricide.

He's not adopted, but he does have a private practice, where he sees a lot of adopted people. And so he says that there are certain characteristics–he calls it the Adopted Child Syndrome-–that certain adoptees, at the far end of the spectrum, are likely to do more poorly. And he says that– Okay, I just wanna talk about a few of the things that are common characteristics, I guess I'll say. That adoptees do not kill their parents because they've been abused. They murder because of the unresolved, underlying adoption psychopathology. Okay, so while the murder is about an evil act, it's also about loss, and abandonment, and rejection, and pain, and the search for oneself.

It's really about a quest for love and to be loved when… yet it evolves into something really malignant, a fatal quest to hurt. Biological children also commit parricides, but they come from families where typically they have been abused for many years. The characteristic there is, that they're abused by either alcoholic parents or mentally ill families.

And those children often murder their parents while they're sleeping, because they're so afraid of the parents. So the choice of weapon for a biological child, when they commit parricide, is a gun. For an adoptee, it is strangulation, or it is using a knife. So those are more like crimes of passion.

Haley Radke: Wow. I don't know. I almost don't even know what to ask you, because I spend a lot of time on my podcast, you know, trying to de-stigmatize talking about mental illness, or help adoptees not be pathologized all into one. So I know we're talking very small, you know, portion of adopted people that would do this. However, like, the cultural story of adoptees, right? Whatever's out there is like we're some crazy people– I read a lot of thrillers, and psychological mysteries and you know, the twist is often it's the adopted person, coming back to either kill their first parents or whatever.

Even as we're recording this right now, one of the big movies that's out is the Joker movie and (spoiler alert), you know, fast forward a few seconds if you can't already figure out what I'm gonna say. He was adopted and then, I think (I haven't seen it), but that he goes on to kill his adoptive mother.

So how do we balance this out? Tracy, I don't wanna pathologize adoptees and be like, "If we don't deal with our grief, we're gonna commit parricide." Like how–what are the things that we need to be doing? What we need to be paying attention to, from your research and work in this?

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Okay. So again, you know, I think that all adoptees are an at-risk population. Most of us, the majority of us, resolve to one degree or another, those issues. We do that through therapy, through search and reunion, through getting married, and having our own children, and filling up our own little island with good stuff. So the preponderance of us do resolve most of our issues, but we have to learn from those few.

And it's not few–I'll just say adoptees are 15 times more likely to kill an adoptive parent than a biological child. So it's not just a few of us at the end of the spectrum, yet, number-wise, it's not as many as people who resolve their issues. But we have to look at that population to really understand what are the underlying issues.

I know for myself, when I feel a partner may be abandoning me, or leaving, like in the middle of a fight, that can produce some pretty big feelings in me. And I can really understand how someone could lose control when there are certain things in line with this. The biggest reason that the event that happens before parricide happens, is that an adoptee may feel or perceive an abandonment.

So Brad that I was talking about before was not doing very well in school. His father had said, "I think I'm gonna send you to the military. You need to get your life together." That was one of the events that happened. Another young, (well, this is a little older man)-- The man on death row in Texas told me that his wife and children had moved out while he was at work.

He came home to an empty house. He went to go where his wife was to talk to her about reconciling, about not divorcing him. And they started to argue, and she went to close the door because she didn't want the children who were inside to hear. She closed the door, which left him on the outside, and he perceived that she was locking him out of his life. That he was gonna lose his children and lost his wife.

Another young man, 14-year-old, who came home from school. He was expelled. His mother came home, started yelling at him, was threatening to send him to one of these treatment centers. While she was yelling at him, spit came out of her mouth and hit his face, which was something that a foster parent used to do.

She used to sprinkle water on his face when he was bad, when he was very little, and that triggered him. So, are we a population of murderers? No, I don't think so. But do we all have some profound kinds of experiences that could make us vulnerable to that kind of violence? Yeah, there is a subset of people who get there.

Haley Radke: So what do you say to someone who is adopted and doesn't have a desire to search, or doesn't feel like adoption has affected them? Do you think they do have some buried grief and possibly repressed anger, or have they resolved that in themselves and are just okay with it?

Dr. Tracy Carlis: I don't know. That's, you know, that's the million dollar question, right?

Because adoptive parents like to tell me, you know, "Oh, my child doesn't really wanna search and they don't need to know." But if I ask an adoptee, "How would you feel if your birth mother knocked on your door and wanted to meet you?" That question is met with, "That would be okay." I think searching is a really, you know, we're taking some risk there.

We were abandoned once, right? Human nature tells us that once an event has happened, it's more likely to happen again. So we think that we're gonna be abandoned, even in our adoptive families, right? Or by our boyfriends and girlfriends, or by the birth mother again. It's just human nature to believe that once you've had an experience, it’s going to happen again.

A lot of people have the ability to repress and deny some of their experiences. That, for me, is a little bit scary, because usually something will happen that kind of opens up the can and then all those feelings can come flooding out.

The extreme sense of that is sort of dissociating from that part of ourselves that has feelings so as though it's, you know, a different person that's in a different room. But dissociation is not fully effective for us all the time, either. Some new loss or event in our life can bring it all up.

Haley Radke: It's so interesting.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: I just do wanna say that there are certain characteristics that we see in these (usually) teenagers, I'm gonna say, that create or that commit these crimes. And one is that there is a history of sealed records and secrecy within the family, and there is no talking about adoption. Which many of us have, but really sealed down. Number two, the person doesn't feel like they fit in or measure up in the family.

That's a big one. I had a young man in Kentucky. He was the first born, then they got pregnant, and had a daughter. The daughter was the apple of their eye. She was very successful. She was going to school to become a doctor. He was like a handyman who couldn't get a lot of work. And the other sibling (the girl) came home from a school break, and they were doting on her, and had a party for her celebrating her getting into medical school.

And he just felt like he wasn't what they wanted; he wasn't enough. And ended up murdering the whole family. There's also, for these kids, untreated and festering adoption wounds. With little or no mental health. So the child has all these feelings, they don't know what to do with them, and you know, in puberty, we're trying to forge an identity, which is very hard when you don't have bits and pieces of yourself. So that's why adoptees tend to be more vulnerable in adolescence. And then just the, like I said before, the most significant piece is that the parricide happens usually when the person is triggered by either perceived or real abandonment. Someone's leaving them.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you for that list. It feels very uncomfortable to hear those things, because, I mean, I think a lot of us have felt those in some way or another throughout our lives. So I think it’s…

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Yeah. That's why it's so important for us to study why there is this sector of adoptees that this happens to.

You know, I'll also just say, when we look at serial killing and mass murders, they are primarily adoptees. I know it's hard to say, right? I can see your face. Of the 500 identified serial killers in the United States, 16% of those, which is a pretty high percentage, are adoptees.

Haley Radke: And as you said earlier, adopted people only are 2 to 3% of the population in the United States.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Exactly, exactly. So when you think about though, serial killings, it makes a little bit more sense, because typically a serial killer and serial killing is defined as a murder that happens– defined as a person who commits three or more murders, when there's a cooling off period between the murders. So it could be months or years.

So Charles Manson, for example, serial killer who murdered many people, along with a group of people that he did that with. He was born to a 15-year-old girl, Kathleen Maddox, who failed to give him a name at birth. Instead, put on his birth certificate, "No name, Maddox." She married a man several months after she gave birth to him, who gave Charles the last name of Manson.

She went to a bar one day and had Charles with her. And then the server thought he was really cute, and wanted a baby, and was kind of talking to him. And his mother said, "Well, for a pitcher of beer, he's yours." And the server of course thought she was kidding, but she actually finished the pitcher of beer and left Charles in the restaurant.

An uncle came and found him several days later. Then his mother was in and out of jail. He was tossed around from relative to relative. Mom, when she did get out, promised that they would be reunited, live together, but instead she put him into a boarding school, which he ran away from and ran to her.

The next day, she returned him to the boarding school. I mean, you can just see, you know– You can see how the object relations piece, the relationship, really can make for a underlying anger and hatred that can produce really horrible crimes. For adoptees, the birth parent, that all of the anger, or loss, or rejection, or confusion should be directed to– it gets directed to the adoptive parents when they fail to understand and address what the adoptee is really feeling.

Haley Radke: Not to be alarmist, but let's not repress our grief.

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Do not repress.

Haley Radke: Aw. Thank you so much, Tracy, for walking us through some of those things and teaching us some about this. Is there anything that we didn't talk about yet that you really want to get to before we do our recommended resources?

Dr. Tracy Carlis: No, I do know it's a difficult conversation and I know that it scares a lot of people.

And I just want to say that most of us are not murderers and, you know, therapy, and talking is really the way to understand ourselves and our feelings and just having listening ears to… Even if it's not your adoptive parents, a good therapist that can help normalize all your feelings.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Thank you. Okay, so for recommended resources, I'm actually gonna share two of the books that you've mentioned. One of the authors as we were talking, and then you shared this other one in your presentation at the AAC conference. So if you are super interested in this topic and you want to read more about it, there's Adoption Uncharted Waters by David Kirschner. And then there's also Adopted Killers. I mean, you guys, even the cover–it is very… I'm laughing cuz it's just, you know, like I find this really fascinating, but I also, as you said, right, it can be really upsetting. But I don't think you know this, probably, Tracy, but I'm obsessed with true crime podcasts and I listen all the time.

Yeah. Just one more thing to add to my to-be-read pile. I haven't read it yet, but it is definitely on my list. All right. What would you like to recommend to us today?

Dr. Tracy Carlis: Well, you know, again, I am a big believer in therapy. So, in here in Los Angeles, we have Jeanette Yoffe, who was a foster child for a lot of her growing up and then adopted a late age, has the Celia Center named after her birth mother, where it– She provides groups for, not only for teenage adoptees, but also for all members of the constellation.

So birth parents, adopted parents, and also for adoptees. So I think that's a really good place, here in California, anyway. I also just–if anybody here is listening, that is thinking about doing a degree and becoming a licensed therapist, I just really encourage you to do that. Because we need more adoption proficient therapists.

Other than the one therapy experience I told you about when I was searching for my birth mom, all of my other therapists, I've had to educate about what adoption means. And that can be tough, because we're really looking for someone to validate what we feel and not just have to educate. So if you're thinking at all about being a therapist, stay in school or get to school and we need you. We need more people to do this work.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Oh my word. Absolutely, I can't agree with that more. Thank you so much for your time today. And where can we connect with you online?

Dr. Tracy Carlis: So, my website is drtracylcarlis.com. Also on Facebook, same: Dr. Tracy L. Carlis. Can connect with me either one of those ways. Email is a little bit longer. It's drcarlis@drtracylcarlis.com.

Haley Radke:Perfect. Thank you!

Dr. Tracy Carlis:You're welcome. Thank you for having me. I just wanna say the podcasts are amazing. I have–I'm pretty new to them, but I have been binge listening, I guess you say, to them, and they're fabulous. So, doing a great job. I really appreciate your work.

Haley Radke: Aw, thank you. That is so kind of you to say.

Every time I have seen Tracy speak, I just sit there in rapt attention, taking notes furiously. You should see the notes I have from her session in Washington. It's two pages of typed notes. Such a fascinating topic and I'm so intrigued by all the layers and I feel like we could have talked for like two more hours about her expertise in this area.

Anyway, I'm so grateful that she was able to come and talk with us, and I got so excited recommending the books that she shared in her presentation that I think I forgot to say the name of one of the authors. So the author for Adopted Killers: 430 Adoptees Who Killed–How and Why They Did It is by Lori Carangelo.

But, of course, the link to that is in the show notes, so you can go ahead and find that over on adopteeson.com. And I just wanna say a big thank you, again. I'm so grateful to all of my monthly supporters who make this show possible. Thank you. If you wanna join them and stand with them and say, “Yes, I believe this is so important and we want Adoptees On to continue to highlight adoptee voices,” go to adopteeson.com/partner and you can find all the details of how to support the show there. Another great way to support the podcast is just by telling one person about it. Maybe you have a friend that's into true crime podcasts like me. Maybe this is a good one to get them interested.

I don’t know; it's not funny. Like why am I laughing so much at adoptees murdering? It's not funny. I think I've listened to too many girlfriend chat true crime podcasts. I think maybe that's why. Anyway, if there is one person that you think would really find Dr. Carlis' work fascinating, just like me, maybe recommend this one episode to them and help share the show in that way.

Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

121 Dr. Sue Green

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/121

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 121, Dr. Sue Green. I'm your host, Haley Radke. I am honored to introduce you today to Dr. Sue Green, a psychologist from Australia, who was actively involved in the landmark Victorian Adoption Act of 1984.

Sue will share her personal story with us, and then we dig into what led her to become an adoptee advocate, who now teaches other therapists, and mental health professionals how to truly be adoptee-competent in working with our loss and trauma. We also touch on some interesting facts about adoption in Australia that will likely surprise you, as they did me.

We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are over on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to the podcast, Dr. Sue Green. Welcome, Sue.

Dr. Sue Green: Hi, Haley. Very excited to be with you over the oceans.

Haley Radke: Yes. We are so far apart and we’re on different days. It's very exciting that we are able to, you know, be awake at the same time. But I actually got a chance to meet you earlier this year, in Washington, D.C., and I've just re-listened to your presentation (which was wonderful).

And we're gonna get into a whole bunch of your expertise in the area of adoption. And why don't we start out with this, though? Could you share your story with us?

Dr. Sue Green: Yeah, certainly, Haley. I was born in 1957, which is quite some time ago now. And I always knew I was adopted. As a young child, I used to be read The Chosen Baby story by Valentina Wasson, which, you know, I was very disturbed to see was still in edition from, in 1986, with a new cover.

But that talks about a Mr. and Mrs. Brown who can't have children. And so they ring up Mrs. White to ask for a baby. I'm obviously Sue Green, so it was Mr. And Mrs. Green. And the book actually says, you know, "Mrs. White, we wish to find a baby who would like a mother and father, and who could be our very own."

And so, in this whole story, there's nothing about our mothers and fathers. And as a child, I used to love this book, but I remember saying to my parents, "Oh, was that before I was a piece of paper?," you know, events that occurred before I came into their family. And it was like I understood I was a transaction, or illegal contract.

And being in the era of closed adoption, adoption wasn't talked about. I felt very guilty or bad for asking any questions, so I tried to fit in as best as I could. You know, my parents were very loving. It's a good adoptive family. However, there were two differences to The Chosen Baby story. One is, my father told me rather than Mrs. White ringing up and, "We've got a baby for you," that they went along to the babies’ home and I smiled to them from my cot. And that I actually chose them, which is a different spin on it. And the second thing, is that I was what's called in the literature "the fertility charm," in that my parents had a homemade baby four years after me.

Haley Radke: Ok, I have not heard that one yet. Oh my gosh. Wow.

Dr. Sue Green: It's very known in IVF circles. And it's very sad. You know, after my father died, I found this little packet of photos that I'd never seen before and I'm holding a baby. I'm about three-and-a-half or four, and it's not my brother. And my mother had actually had another baby on pre-adoptive placement when she conceived, and she had needed to hand this baby back because she couldn't be pregnant and pre-adoptive.

And she'd never spoken to anyone about this. So, you know, in her old age, I was able to talk about that and she had enormous grief and loss. And it's still one of my tasks is to try and find that little baby, because I don't know what happened to him, but I have no recollection of holding him. Anyway, I'd probably say I had a pretty rocky adolescence; I was fairly non-compliant.

And I was in 1-F. We used to have 1-A, B, C, D at school. I was in 1-F for a while. Probably my saving grace (and my parents were probably mad), but I was absolutely horse mad. And I used to go to the auctions and buy unwanted horses that were very damaged, and work with them.

So I sort of did animal-assisted therapy before it was even invented. And somehow once I got to the end of high school, you know, there were very few people in our class. I actually passed, and then left home and went to uni. And all my life through uni, I worked in bars, and people would come up to me and say, "Now where are you from?"

Or they'd start talking to me in Italian, or "You just look my cousin, north Verona…" and so on. And I'd have to say, as all adoptees do, "I don't know. I'm adopted. I don't know. I'm adopted." So that led me to search. And the other thing that led me to search was, I read Lost and Found by Betty Jean Lifton, which was the book of the day.

And of course it's got “Adolescent Baggage,” “The Chosen Baby” story, “The Right to Know.” And that was a–it was like that book was written to me. And you know, something we say in the adoption movement, is there's been a professional silence and denial of adoption as an issue. And that the people that have spoken out about it (as you have talked about), talking the truth from the fairytale, are the people with the experience. And particularly people like Betty Jean Lifton and Nancy Verrier and Joe Soll, and we've got our own Nancy Robinson (who's a mother in Australia), talking about their own personal experiences with a, you know, a clinical bent.

So, those two things are really powerful to me. So, growing up, I knew two things. I knew my parents had told me that my parents were married, and that they lived in the country. So, you know how we fantasize as we are growing up. I used to think I was a part of a large, Italian, or family that grew vegetables, and they had a bad crop and they couldn't keep me. This was sort of my image, you know, my fantasy,

Haley Radke: Oh, that one bad crop, that'll really do you in.

Dr. Sue Green: And so, I knew I was placed in the Methodist Babies’ Home. So, during this time (and I can't remember–it would've been the late 70s, early 80s), I went to the Methodist Babies’ Home to get my non-identifying information. And it's a very big, large, Victorian building. And I was sitting there, and the social worker was in the desk opposite me, and she had my file there.

And I was the good adoptee, and I just sat there and she said, "Oh, excuse me, I just need to go and find something." And I didn't walk over and look at the paperwork, cuz she wasn't allowed to tell me the name at that time.

Haley Radke: So it was right there, but you didn't look.

Dr. Sue Green: No, no.

Haley Radke: Now, ok. Do you think she left to give you an opportunity, or she legitimately was just leaving?

Dr. Sue Green: I don't want to identify, but I think she left to give me an opportunity. It wasn't easy to tell me, but you know. The irony is when I found out my information. My mother knew– My adoptive mother knew my mother's first name, and my father knew my last name. Because this was pre-1960, when they actually had the information of the parents and the family when they signed the adoption.

But they–until I told them, they had never talked about that. So, that's a sideline. So I drove home (as you could be imagining), just, like, feeling so upset and angry with myself. That's really when I got involved in the advocate movement for change of legislation. And they're an amazing group of people in an organization called Jigsaw (at the time), who had been doing that for a long time.

And it's actually a woman, Pauline Toner (who was previously my local member here), who introduced that legislation in '84 for identifying information for adoptees. And it was a bipartisan approach, i.e., both sides of politics (like the Democrats and the Republicans) actually agreed on something.

Haley Radke: So is this, was this federal legislation, or was it state?

Dr. Sue Green: State. Our adoption is run and managed, and the information is state-based. So, we've got different legislations in all the different states. So, I'm talking about Victoria at this time, and mothers and fathers (we don't use the term “birth” or “first” mothers)... Mothers and fathers also advocated for that at the time, but they lost, you know, there was lots of media around.

They'd come and break up happy families. And there was also media around, you know–there has to be something wrong with you if you're looking, as an adoptee. And so that's why the counseling provision was in at that time.

Haley Radke: So that you had to go for counseling before you could search? Before they would give you any information?

Dr. Sue Green: Well, you got it that day, basically. Because you had your name down and people… You would go and see a social worker, and she'd just talk about, perhaps, why you are wanting to search and give some preparation (which in some ways, I think is a good thing). And then you would get your information, so it wasn't conditional.

And of course, there became a huge demand. And so they started doing just a group session, you know, about that. And then VANISH was funded to self-search, which has been happening for 30 years. So, that occurred. So, I wrote to my mother and father, who were still alive at that time. I got my records, and I discovered I had been the youngest of a very large group of siblings. And one of my brothers was actually with me at the time my mother gave me to the Methodist Babies’ Home. And I was actually there for three months. So I've actually had three names. My birth name was Marjorie, my name in the institution was Ivy, and then my adoptive parents called me Susan. And during that time, they had (in '57)--it was almost like an orphanage.

There probably would've been 20 or 30 children in that room. And they used to prop-feed babies, i.e., not touch them, because there was this notion of attachment. That, you know, to be able to attach to a new mother, you couldn't have had previous attachments. And you know, that's something I talk a lot about, is around the confusion between bonding and attachment.

That with your mother in utero, you are bonding. Attachment occurs then with the developing relationship post-birth. And lots of people say, you know, “It was men that invented attachment theory, because they hadn't experienced the bonding in utero.”

Haley Radke: Okay, that makes sense.

Dr. Sue Green: You know, we still sort of have this fallacy. You see these, you know, parents–adoptive, prospective commissioning couples, either a surrogate or an adoptive person. You know, the baby's born, and they wanted the baby to attach to the mother. Well, it doesn't work like that. Attachment is a slow process. Bonding is something that's occurred for nine months.

Anyway, that was the theory during that time. And so, I arranged to go and meet my parents and the brother that was there at the time I was lost to adoption. We don't use the term “given up,” or whatever we took. For parents, it's “they lost their child to adoption,” or for an adoptee, it was “separated from family, through adoption.”

So, you know, very careful about language we use, that's non-traumatizing. Anyway, I– My brother took me round and I met my mother, and my father (who was very ill at the time). Meeting my mother was an astonishing experience. We've got the same eyes, the same sort of ugliness. And she took me by the hand, and took me out to show her vegetables, and I was in my vegetable garden, and all this sort of thing, you know?

And I mean, I didn't talk for 24 hours after that event. I was just, in total… I was stunned, I suppose. And of course my mother said, "Oh yes, and there's another one, too." And so we have a lot of adoption in our large family.

Haley Radke: So that was— the story was true. They were married, because you were the youngest.

Dr. Sue Green: And my father was a farmer.

Haley Radke: Okay. And the vegetables were doing okay at the time of your meeting.

Dr. Sue Green: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We call that synchronicity, don't we?

And so then, one of my sisters got a dinner party together with… My siblings sort of live all over Australia. It's a bit like the States, you know (we're about the same size), and so not all of them were there. But I love Betty Jean Lifton's term "twice born," cuz that's how I felt. I felt like the little baby in the crib again and everyone going, "Oh, doesn't she look like so-and-so,” and “Oh you do this just like so-and-so." And we, as adoptees, never had that relational experience of being the baby and the… And the other thing was, they all sat there drinking wine and after the meal, they left their plate there and the table was in disarray…

I grew up in a family where it was temperance; we didn't drink. And the meals would be cleaned up and the breakfast set for morning, you know, the minute after. Cleanliness is next to godliness.

And so, I felt this enormous sense of coming home. Both sets of my parents are now dead, so I've sort of been 30 years now connecting with various my siblings. I think the struggle with it is, I really agree that you have this false self when you're growing up in an adoptive family, that you have to accommodate. And how do you know what is “you”? And then when you meet your siblings (and it doesn't happen for everyone), and your parents, you see how much commonality there is. And things that you were thought were fiercely independently yours, aren’t. So you know, that discovering who I am is still going on, and I really appreciate the relationships (particularly I have with some of my sisters, around that). Yeah, that's basically my story.

Haley Radke: So you were in your–were you like just early thirties, then, when you first connected with your family?

Dr. Sue Green: Yeah, I've got the legislation changed in '84. I then gave birth to a son who was disabled in '85, so that sort of put me on the back burner a little bit. And so I was around 31/32 when I reached out.

Haley Radke: And you were still in contact with some of your siblings, then, to this day?

Dr. Sue Green: Well, Facebook's a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Haley Radke: Well, there you go.

Dr. Sue Green: Yeah. But you know the ones that live in Victoria, definitely. And I had a message from–I've got two sisters in another state, but I got a message just not full last from one of them. So yes, I am still in contact. I mean, the amazing thing is that.. My mother's quite old when she had me and some of my oldest–only one brother knew about my existence.

Some of them didn't even know about the other brother that was lost to adoption. You know, my sisters think it's amazing that they didn't know my mother was pregnant and cuz she, you know, she was living in the household. But I think we forget that in those days, you wore big smocks and you didn't proudly talk about the pregnancy.

And they were 14, 15, and probably off doing their own stuff when I was born. But you know, I've been fortunate in that I've been accepted, but you know, you can never get back all those years that you didn't live with people, despite the commonalities. Yes. Yes.

Haley Radke: Isn't that the truth? Now, you were mentioning (and you've hinted a couple of times), at this history you have with advocacy and, kind of, knowing the insider stuff. Why don't you switch and tell us about your professional career? And how did you come to be Dr. Sue Green and the expert that you are in this area?

Dr. Sue Green: I don’t know that I'm an expert, but, look… My first job was– my first job after I did master’s in psychology was running a small agency out of a shopfront. Now these days, we have lots of counseling services in shopfronts, but you know, literally in a shop, in a shopping center. And it was one of the first family support funded services, family counseling services in Victoria. And because I knew people in the adoption network, I started getting referred all these teenagers that were adopted, and some of them were in our boys' and girls' homes because they'd offended, or whatever. So, I used to just sit and say, you know, "Do you ever feel stolen? Do you ever feel angry? Do you ever think about your mother and father?"

And they'd sit there, and they'd go, "You mean my real mother and father?" And I said, "Yes. Does anyone talk to you about this? Are you confused?" And so I would just have very open discussions with these kids because I knew, as a teenager, I had held all this in and I had no one to talk to.

I mean, growing up, I think there was a boy up the road and he was an Indigenous child. And, of course, we've had the stolen generations with our Indigenous people, and I remember him at school being bullied and teased. You know, he’s the only dark-skinned kid, so I didn't want to identify or talk with him, even though I knew I was adopted.

But I knew no one else, all through my school years. And I mean, odds would be there would've been other adopted students there. But I just knew that– particularly in adolescence, you don't like talking to people about your inner feelings anyway, but this divided loyalty in adoption… So I would just talk to those kids and I mean, I worked at the children's court (which is for parents who, you know, drug taking or whatever), mediating for 19 years. And I would always ask the question, "Have you had an experience related to adoption?"

And I actually saw some of those kids I saw 20 years earlier, you know, during that time. So it's something I've always had sort of feelers for. And I've always asked the question, and that's what we encourage all practitioners to do: to ask the question.

Haley Radke: So, you fast forwarded, because you're already a psychologist and then you're getting these referrals for these– What drew you to the field of psychology? Do you know? Did you want to know more about yourself?

Dr. Sue Green: Look, I– We had no career counseling then. I think I wanted to be a wool classer at one point. You know, that's in the shearing sheds. I have no– I wanted to be a mounted policewoman, but I was too short. I have no idea what drew me to psychology. But I'll tell you something, Haley, we've had probably about 350 counselors come through our training. And I would say, one in five have an adoption experience, or they're married an adoptee, or their mother was, or you know, they're related to adoption in some way.

And I think it would be really interesting to research to know how many therapists go into the helping profession because they've had that experience. I do know that all my growing up, I was very sensitive to what was being said. I don't know. But yeah, I can't explain why I went into the profession. It wasn't because I want to work with adoption, or I want to do clinical work. It was just…

Haley Radke: That part just came to you later.

Dr. Sue Green: It was a drift. I mean, I did sociology as well, and I did the sociology of prisons and so on. And then, we were very lucky we had a program, one of the early master’s programs.

Haley Radke: Well, I wanna kind of switch gears, because you were, you know, talking about just your experience with the courts and working with all of these very troubled kids, and then you see them later as adults. And how did you start really working with adult adoptees and understanding there's like this huge hole in care for them? And then, in turn, training other therapists and psychologists to become not just adoption-competent, but like adoptee-competent?

Dr. Sue Green: Look, I think it was being a part of the adoption community for so long and knowing everybody's experiences, knowing their experiences of going to therapy themselves and having to educate the therapists. And you know, if you talk about psychology training (and it'd probably be the same in social work)--we didn't mention the word.

I don't think–I did six years and didn't mention the word adoption once and yet, you know, past adoption, Baby Scoop Era, there's plenty of us still around, all as walking adults who have needs, and yet it is unacknowledged. There's a professional silence about it, and I suppose that's something I've connected with.

And just knowing, you know, Victorian Adoption Network for Information Self-Help, which I was involved with–I wasn't on the first committee, but that was made up of adoptive parents, adoptees, and mothers, and we had some independence. It now has donor conceived and intercountry adoptees on it, but being involved in that community and even 30 years later, we still have so many unmet needs around funded counseling.

We still have people searching. We have the ripple effect. We have the children now searching. So you know, there's a– We know there's enormous need there, but it's not acknowledged publicly. Although, I'd have to say with the apologies, Senate inquiry… Just last month there was in The Women's Weekly (which is a very populist women's magazine in Australia), there was a story of a mother who lost a child to adoption, who was also an adoptee. I might have had it wrong, I just skim read it in the hairdressers’ the other day.

But you know, we've had a lot of media and my next training is going to be associated with… The National Archives of Australia have this traveling exhibition Without Consent, and it's about the whole forced adoption era and it's got adoptees, and mothers, and everyone's experiences, and photographs, and so on. And that's a traveling exhibition around Australia. So, slowly, we are having people acknowledge that if you say you're adopted, they don't just say, “Isn't that wonderful? Oh, I was reading something about that,” and there's some connections of deeper understanding.

But I'd have to say we've still got a long way to go, because in some states there's a real push to adopt children from out of home care. And my fundamental position is that, “Why is adoption different from long-term foster care, permanent care…?” It cancels and falsifies the birth certificate. And, you know, it suppresses the truth to support a fiction, as was said at the conference. And whether you are adopted from care, intercountry, donor-conceived, understand there's lots of embryos now that might be adopted: the birth certificate is falsified.

And so one of our issues is about having integrated birth certificates, so everybody's relationship to the child is on the birth certificate. So, I'm not sure how I got onto this tangent now. But the understanding of adoption– the basic identity information is a lie, and it continues to be a lie in modern adoption.

Haley Radke: Well, I would– you answered a question that I had for you without even me asking because… So I live in Canada, and this year they had a Senate inquiry and there was a recommendation made to give an apology for the post-war adoption era, and nothing really came of that. The–I don't know, it's sort of on pause. Yeah.

So I'm not sure. I can't speak to it more than that, but… So you were just saying that, you know, Australia has had an apology, and we're gonna talk about that a bit more in recommended resources. And so you're seeing a bit of a shift. But, interestingly, I mean– Can you talk about the status of adoption in Australia right now? Because it doesn't happen much. Am I correct in saying that?

Dr. Sue Green: Yeah, I gave my stats in the presentation at Washington. Now, across Australia in 2017/18, we had 330 adoptions. Now that includes stepparent adoption, intercountry adoption, adoption from care, and local adoptions (which we'd call our infant adoptions).

So if you're looking at infant adoptions, we had 32 that year. So there's seven states. So you divide that by that. Now, Australian population's about 25 million; America’s like 300 and so on. If you look at 1% of the population and our adoption rate, you– America (and I can't speak for Canada) is adopting at least, I think, 30 times that amount.

I think there are 16,000 local adoptions and overall about 78,000, if you include out of home care and everywhere else. So. Yeah, adoption… but we've still got an issue with saying, you know, they'll say, "Past adoption is in the past, cuz now we have open adoption." But the– And there's a push for that. And we have some very powerful lobby groups, including some of our film stars like Hugh Jackman and Deborra-Lee Furness, and so on, who argue there's these children that need a home. And we would still argue, open adoption actually doesn't make much difference when you are falsifying the birth certificate.

You're not allowing a child to live with their name. And that when they turn 18, if they choose to be adopted, that's something they can do. Knowing that we have probably more adoption dispensations, (i.e., people want to become unadopted through the court), as people choosing, but… And we've had the whole stolen generation, so we had an apology for the stolen generations that was our Indigenous children.

There was a policy of genocide and assimilation by removing babies, and placing them in white families.

Haley Radke: So, in Canada we had something similar, called the Sixties Scoop in Canada. And, I think something similar, again, happened in the U.S.

Dr. Sue Green: There was a Native American adoption project in 1957, which deliberately took Native American children, and placed them in white families.

So that is an intergenerational trauma effect in our Indigenous community. And there was an apology privately, post-adoption of policy for them. And one thing I noticed in the States–I was just quite shocked–is we always acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land and respect elders past and present and emerging, in acknowledgement that we took people's land and we took their children. So we have that whole history of acknowledgement, as well as the acknowledgement of past forced adoptions. But I would still say that there's a very strong push for adoption in Australia, because it does get sometimes linked to the abortion, and it should be quite separate.

"There are all these children in care that need loving families." "We have infertility still, one in five." So there's a very powerful push around the adults’ rights to parent as opposed to the child's rights. And so that's still an argument, I think, that just has to be argued over, and over, and over again.

Haley Radke: That's interesting that there's like this swing back towards pushing for more adoption. Because would you say that the apology perhaps has given mothers in temporary crisis more resources, or more supports to parents, instead of losing their child to adoption? Or am I just sort of stretching that a little bit?

Dr. Sue Green: If we're talking about the modern day, I would still say that we have very strong moral judgments–if you're taking drugs, or homeless, or you know; in the old days it was having a child out of wedlock or whatever. And we don't provide support and grief counseling for those mothers, and fathers, and grandparents, and families, and siblings enough.

And my big concern around open adoption is unless you support that family, they're not gonna be able to have any ongoing contact, particularly when it's not in contact orders. At least in Victoria, we have contact orders. So I still think we have a very strong ideology about being very judgmental to people who, for whatever way, are not coping.

And we've gotta recognize that parents in our child welfare system often have had parents who were raised in institutions that were also homeless. It's an intergenerational issue, poverty, often. It's not something that is necessarily their fault. You know, we're born with inequalities. So, I actually ran a training day in another state, which the mothers from past adoption wanted to organize. And it was a very interesting day because the acknowledgement of the loss and trauma of parents, I still think has a long way to go, too. And the disenfranchised group. And, you know, so forth.

Haley Radke:Can you tell us more about that? So you do training for both professionals who are actually working in, you know, psychology or therapy of some kind, and also other people?

So can you give us a scope of who you are doing training with, and what sorts of things you're teaching?

Dr. Sue Green: Okay. So we run two days, and the first day is open to any professional working with people who might be homeless. So there might be a chaplain in jail. They might be working with the homeless, alcohol and drug services.

And so what we cover in those days is, "What is forced adoption?" Now, we would say that if in 1972, we had 10,000 adoptions, for example, (very similar in the USA)... If those people were supported by family, had access to abortion, child supporting parent payment, job opportunities, et cetera, they would not choose to adopt.

So, when we say we only have 32 across Australia now, we would say that, you know, at least 9,680 adoptions were forced, because they had no choice. Now, within that group, there are mothers who were tied to the bed, drugged, you know, some really awful things happened– falsified consent, all those sorts of things.

So we cover "What does forced adoption mean?" We then talk about the seven core issues of adoption. And we also add mattering and trust, and then we hear about the experiences from mothers, adoptees, fathers, and adoptive parents about what has been the impact of adoption on them. And then we talk a lot about the values and myths around adoption, and getting people to question their own values.

Then we talk a little bit about the role of support groups, because they're fundamental. I mean, there's nothing like sitting with your peers and connecting, and encouraging therapists, community workers to use that as an adjunct. And in fact, some of my training–I've actually had a mother with a therapist come, for the first day.

So, and we also talk about search and support in the legislation, because I have found that most people in the community, whether they're a counselor, or a housing worker, or whatever, don't know about the legislation and how to approach that. And what would you need to do to support someone through search and contact? So they're the sort of things we cover the first day.

Haley Radke: Ok, before you go to day two, I imagine you have people come to this who don't really know what they're getting into. And how wide do people's eyes get when they see those videos of adoptees sharing? Or just the idea that there's a trauma that occurs when a child is separated from a parent? What are those light bulb moments like?

Dr. Sue Green: Oh, look, it's really amazing because you start getting– We have, with face-to-face training, you might have five or six people round a table and one will be an adoptee, one will be someone that's working in adoption (maybe either in search and support or actually arranging adoptions), you'll have some child welfare professionals, you'll have some general therapists…

And what happens, is there's an exchange of information. And often the adoptee, or the mother, or whoever starts sharing their experience, too, because they've seen it on screen, and from the feedback we get is, "I never understood that it was so complex. I'm gonna look at this client in a different way now."

Haley Radke: You can't unsee it, right? Once you know, you know. Yep, yep.

Dr. Sue Green: That's right. And that's the light bulb we want.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Okay. Sorry to interrupt. Why don't you tell us about day two?

Dr. Sue Green: Oh, okay. So if you're a counselor, you need to come to day one as well as day two, to understand the context, and just get all that sharing with others.

On day two, we talk about theories of adoption. And so we talk about genetic and goodness-of-fit theories, social wealth theory, narrative coherence theory, trauma theory, attachment theory, stress and coping theories–all the theories that are around. And we get people to quite thoroughly look at trauma theory in relation to that.

And then, we talk about when an individual comes to you, "How do you determine what is adoption related and not adoption related, particularly when you're talking about adults who might be anything from 30 to 75?" And "I've had a huge amount of life experience. As well as with adoption." And how do those interplay and inform?

So we talk about the five Ps. You know, what are the presenting issues? And we very thoroughly talk about the difference between loss, and grief, and trauma, and how to assess that using the DSM-5. We talk about what precipitated what was now, "Why now?" "Is it the birth of a child? Is it you've just learnt you're adopted? Why are you coming to therapy now?"

We talk about the predisposing things. For example, "What do you know about your adoption? Was it open in the family? Closed in the family? Were you in an orphanage? Were you–how were you parented? How did you deal with the age you were told? What were you told? What were your fantasies?"

All that big picture that you need to know about a person. We talk about what are some of the perpetuating things that might be–feeling of shame, not having connection with anyone else with the experience, all those things. It might be a sudden outreach from a parent to you. Because in Victoria, parents can also get identifying information; it's not only adoptees.

Or DNA is a very common thing. And then, "What are all the protective factors for that person?," you know, if they've got supportive relationships, those sort of things. So we talk about the whole picture, and then we take some case examples and people have to sit down and discuss them. And, "How would they work with that person? What questions would they want to ask?" And you know, I've got now case feedback from a couple hundred people, just discussing this stuff. And then, we talk about search and contact, and someone's ready. "So what would you need to consider in relation to that? How would you equip and support a person?"

And then we also specifically, as I said, talk about late discovery adoptees (you know, you could do a whole day on that). In our Australian research, there's no definition of that. They use 12 in the Institute of Family Studies, but you know, we've had people, I think up to 80, discover they're adopted.

And what does that do to you when you've left that identity? And we also talk about genetic sexual attraction, which doesn't need to be sexual, per se. But you know, me not talking to my mother, was that overpowering sense of connection. Or we have a mother who talks about her son walking towards her that she hasn't met in 30 years in bike gear, and she's got pin pricks all over her body as he comes, because she just knows.

And you know that enormous– It doesn't happen for everybody, but people need to be equipped by the overwhelming domination of this event in your life, and giving that space. And I think that's something we also talk about, the level of awareness. You may (and I still see today), some people who are adopted and they have no awareness that….I think you'd be calling it still in the fog. There's no awareness that this might be related to whatever's happening in your life. And then you have emerging awareness, and then you have some people who are drowning in awareness, and adoption is everything. And then you have all the people that are in different stages of reconstructing, and integrating, and accepting loss.

And so it's very important to be aware of where people are at, also. So, you know, that's a really big complex picture to cover, but it gives people a taste, and it gets professionals talking about all this with one another

Haley Radke: Which–it's so necessary. I don't know how many times we've talked about this on the show already, but, you know, you mentioned this at the top… You can, you know, become a psychologist, and literally never have adoption addressed in any of your classes.

Dr. Sue Green: Yep. And one thing, you know, what are you going to go away with? Well, we want, on the referral form, a question: "Have you had an experience related to adoption?"

And now we need to do that with all the genetic donation stuff. We need to have that on our intake. You know, I went to the doctor's last week and the surgery has moved, and I had to fill in a new form. There was still nothing about adoption or, you know, genetic carriage on the intake form.

Now that is just crazy to me. And then how do you sensitively ask the question? You know? So just, "Can you tell me about your family?" You know, "Have there been significant losses in your life?" That you keep it very broad, because you never know what you might be unpacking, and where people are. And one pleasing thing is, we've had a whole lot of people from the aged care sector come to the day one training and VANISH has been also organizing separate seminars. You know, adoption’s been seen as a special group in aged care and as people go towards the end of their life stage and they're reflecting on life, that is a really important time of life. Because you know these issues could emerge at any time.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. Okay. Is there anything I didn't ask you about, Sue, that you really wanna make sure you tell us before we go on to our resources?

Dr. Sue Green: Oh, look, I'll just say your program's wonderful. Because what I still think we don't acknowledge is adopted children grow up to be adults, and we have our own needs that are totally unrecognized.

And you know, I went to the case training again, the National Training Initiative, and it's like you can work with these adoptive families and deal with their mental health issues. And I would say, “No, you can't, because we still have those throughout our life.” And it's actually the whole narrative and process of adoption that is the issue.

The falsification of the birth certificate, it's not allowing the authenticity of the person to grow, you know, from very young childhood, for having to fit in. All those sorts of things, really important to acknowledge. And so we just don't recognize all the needs that we have as adults: when we have our first child, and become grandparents, when we're dealing with relationships, we're dealing with families, the divided loyalty issues. We just do not acknowledge that. And so, you know, I'm really grateful that you publicized, so some audience might hear.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay, so we are gonna do our recommended resources, and mine is something that Sue mentioned earlier on. You referred to it several times, VANISH, which is the Victorian Adoption Network for Information and Self-Help.

So that's a great acronym. I mean, whew!, you got all the letters in there. So, Sue is on the committee, which I'm assuming we might call that being on the board of directors (similar lingo). And if you go to their website, vanish.org.au, oh my word! There are so many resources linked there and you know, some are Australia specific, but there's so many that absolutely apply to adopted people around the world.

No matter what your situation, you can find something there. It's a treasure trove. So, if I'm ever looking for a resource in the future, like if I need, you know, something… (I'm stabbing my fingers.) If I need to come up with something for a recommended resource, cause I don't have anything, maybe I'll come here and look at your resource page.

Yeah, and if you're in Australia (especially in Victoria), make sure you go and check out how you can get involved, get connected, find out more about training through there. And the other thing that's linked on the resource page is your recommended resource. So why don't you go ahead and tell us about that, please?

Dr. Sue Green:Yes, I've recommended… I mean, every state government has made an apology, but I've recommended the YouTube clip of the National Apology, which was delivered by Julia Gillard, who was our first Australian Prime Minister, in March, 2013. So we've now had our sixth anniversary, and you will see people from around Australia in the large hall of Parliament House.

And there's a five minute version, and a 20 minute version. But what was so impressive is she met people, and she talked to them, and she really understood. And if I have time, I can just read out a sentence or two that applies to adoptees.

She said, "To each of you that were adopted or removed, who were led to believe your mother had rejected you, and who were denied the opportunity to grow up with your family and community of origin, and to connect with your culture. We say sorry. We apologize to the sons and daughters who grew up not knowing how much you were wanted and loved. We acknowledge that many of you still experience a constant struggle with identity, uncertainty, and loss. And feel a persistent tension between loyalty to one family and yearning from another."

So it was a very moving day.

Haley Radke: I may have cried just watching the video of that apology. I mean, really! Especially those lines that you read, they're so– It's so significant, right? Having your loss and grief acknowledged, amazingly, is somehow validating, and it's a part of our healing.

Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us and, oh my word!, you have got to get Dr. Green over to teach your therapist, your psychologist, your social workers about how to be adoptee and adoption-competent. Dr. Green, if people want to connect with you and figure out how to bring you over to North America, which is where most of our listeners are, or wherever, right?

You're a world traveler. You get around. Where can we connect with you to find out more about training?

Dr. Sue Green: Well, I would suggest that you contact VANISH via the website. And I have to say, I met some wonderful therapists who are also adoptees in North America that you've also had on your program. And it would be great to just partner up.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. That would be awesome.

Dr. Sue Green: Do some, you know, concurrent work. Yeah. So feel free to contact VANISH.

Haley Radke: So VANISH (the website), again, I'm just gonna repeat it, is vanish.org.au, and there's contact info there. Yeah, and let us know, please, if you have anything coming up, and we will certainly share it on the Facebook page.

You do have a training coming up in a couple weeks (when we're recording this in November). So I will post information about that in the show notes. And people can come and check that out if they're around, or if they want to have an Australian vacation. Thank you so, so much, Sue. It's just been a real honor. Thank you so much for your time today.

Dr. Sue Green: Oh, thank you, Haley. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Bye-bye.

Haley Radke: Oh, my word. I could have interviewed Sue for like five hours. I hope that we can have her back to address some more of this in depth. I mean, we could do… I was joking around with her before we started. I was like, "You could do like a 10-episode series with your level of expertise." So grateful for her time in sharing with us.

I want to say another big thank you to my monthly partners on Patreon. Thank you so much. You guys are literally helping the show to continue, and so I'm so grateful for your ongoing support. If you want to stand with these really amazing people and say, "Yes, I think Adoptees On is valuable, and I want it to continue,” go to adopteeson.com/partner, and you can find out more details there about your bonuses.

And it's been really special. I've gotten to know so many of these supporters as friends in the Facebook group, and some people have Skyped with me, and that's been really fun, too. So there's lots of fun bonuses over on Patreon. Adopteeson.com/partner has details for that. Another amazing way to support the podcast for $0, is just to share an episode with a friend that you know is also adopted.

Maybe there's a specific one that you know would really connect with them. Maybe you know an Australian adoptee, and they would really love to hear Sue's story and get connected with local adoptees in their area. So that is another awesome way to share Adoptees On–with other people just like us that need adoptee support.

Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

120 Dear Adoption,

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/120

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 120, Dear Adoption, I'm your host, Haley Radkey. Dear Adoption is joining up with Adoptees On again today. Reshma McClintock, founder of Dear Adoption, is back, and she brought us another letter that we are sure most adopted people will relate to.

We also talk about a recent trip to Washington, DC that Reshma was a part of to ensure adult adoptive voices were represented in the conversations. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, AdopteesOn.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Reshma McClintock. Welcome Reshma.

Reshma McClintock: Hi Haley. Thanks for having me again.

Haley Radke: I'm so excited. We are gonna do another deep dive into a letter to Dear Adoption and we're gonna do little update on an event you were involved with about a month ago. So let's start off with our letter. Why don't you read it for us?

Reshma McClintock: Excellent. This was an anonymous piece submitted recently and so we won't obviously disclose the author, but I am really honored to get to read this today. Dear Adoption, hello, hello Adoption. Remember me? How quickly you turned away from me and from the truth. You dotted the I’s crossed the T's, collected your payment and erased me from existence, metaphorically, literally.

You didn't ask me how I felt. You didn't comfort me. You didn't check on me, you didn't see me, you didn't preserve me. I am half a person. I only half exist despite what you see. You see the beautifully crafted exterior I was forced to create. You celebrate who you think I am, who you think I am because I am adopted.

You don't grieve with me. You don't feel the loss that lives inside my bones. You miss entirely that I am a hollow shell. Who I am is void all of the things that matter most. To you I am a success story, a beautiful tale of the betterment of one's life. You don't know me. You didn't then. You don't now. I am only half a person and all of me is hollow. Hello.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Wow. It's right. Okay, so you first get sent this piece. What are your thoughts when you get this in your email?

Reshma McClintock: I have to tell you, this piece struck a chord in me, and I typically get really emotionally involved with every Dear Adoption piece. Uh, rare is the occasion that I don't relate on some level, and then there's obviously some that resonate even more with me than others.

But for the most part, I find a connection to every piece as you find a connection to every guest, no matter their story and how different their circumstance might have been. There is this, you know, common thread that we share in adoption. No matter where we are in the, you know, stage of coming out of the fog or wherever we are with whatever we've experienced, there's just this bind that ties us together.

So this one though, again, really, really struck me. And, um, in my interactions with the writer, we had fairly similar stories in that the author of this piece really didn't come out of the fog until adulthood, well into their thirties. And, um, had kind of had this, what most of society would view as a positive adoption experience, but, um, had kind of these feelings beneath the surface for most of their life.

And then realized later in life that there was, there was all this, all, all these issues, all these unresolved, I don't even know, unresolved emotions really, and unacknowledged emotions. So this one was just a while for me. And, and struck me in a, in a multitude of ways. I, I wanna know what you thought the first time you read it.

Haley Radke: Well, once again, I was, um, it's like poking a little too close to some of my own feelings and, you know, when that happens I just, I get very uncomfortable. I'm like, I feel like we're on the same wavelength. I feel upset that someone else had a similar experience. And, just living with that, all of that unacknowledged grief, you know, comes so through, comes through so strongly here.

Um, just some really powerful lines and the one that popped out to me right away was, you didn't preserve me. And, you know, that word preserve is so critical because, you know, you and I are really passionate about family preservation, you know? And even when we talk about, you know, well, we're not anti adoption.

What we are is for family preservation and choosing that language of preserving, just to talk about, that's my personal stance on adoption. It's for family preservation. So to hear you didn't preserve me, um, was really cutting it close for me.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah because so often we don't even go back that far in our own personal thoughts and our own personal stories, because being an adopted person, for many of us, again, I don't speak for all, but for many of us, our story starts the day we were adopted.

And so it's even difficult, I think, for us to go back that far to before we were adopted. And that would've been the point of one of, well, frankly, one of many points of preservation, right? And so when, so I, I hear what you're saying when you say you didn't preserve me. So there was much of the time there is actually an opportunity for us to be preserved, and there are many different opportunities that come up throughout our lives to preserve our biological ties, to preserve our heritage and our culture.

Um, even just the physical mirroring, all of those things, there's lots of opportunity for that. But the reality is preservation and being preserved, frankly, has no place in adoption. And I think that's why you say that word, it just doesn't even come up much of the time. And so I think it jumped off the page at me too. I've never heard anybody say that that way you didn't preserve me. And I thought, what a simple and profound way to describe adoption.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Yeah. I, same. I had never heard it phrased that way. And so I think that's what, what jumped out to me. What about you? Any other lines that really spoke to you?

Reshma McClintock: Well, early on the writer says you dotted the i's crossed the t's collected your payment and erased me from existence metaphorically, literally. And this gets me on a whole bunch of levels. Um, when is that…

Haley Radke: when you, when you read, collected your payments? I'm like, dang.

Reshma McClintock: Well, I know. And you know what's interesting?

This is, that's one of the parts that makes. Adopted people who aren't out of the fog. Uh, just people in society who aren't outta the fog and, and adoptive parents makes them so uncomfortable is when we talk about adoption as a payment for services or, you know, commodity, right? Rendered right? So we're paying for something.

I mean, there is a transaction that takes place. It makes, frankly even me uncomfortable because I was the purchesee, is that a word? I don't know. But, you know, so it can make us uncomfortable and so it often really irritates people, you know, collected your payment. But I love that the writer pointed that out. I love, you dotted the I’s cross the T’s because a lot of what we hear about adoption is, ah, the paperwork. You know, there's adoptive parents who are,

Haley Radke: What's the T-shirt? What's the t-shirt rush?

Reshma McClintock: I know. Pregnant on paper.

Haley Radke: Paper pregnant.

Reshma McClintock: Yes, exactly. And there's you know, a whole bunch of variations of that. But we hear about that from adoptive parents who are dominating the narrative about all the paperwork. And, and you know, most often it's said with this additional message that they're saying, you know, it's not that we're complaining about the paperwork, it's that we want to give this a child a home that much quicker, and the paperwork bogs us down.

And so, but I also think, you know, I, I heard about that. I had great, great adoptive parents, but I heard a lot about the paperwork. I heard a lot about how much work it was, how much things, how many things they sent back and forth. And what so many people don't realize is that is very burdensome for us.

It's very burdensome to think about the paperwork or the all, all that went into this transaction, so to speak, collected your payment. So, so going back to what the writer saying, We did all these things, right? We did the paperwork, paid and then erased me metaphorically, and literally. And I think, whew. That is a heavy, heavy statement. And there's two things I wanna point out. One is a lot of adopted people that I know would say, this resonates very, very close to their heart. This is something that they could have written, that they would say, this is articulated in a really concise, beautiful, devastating way.

But I also wanna say that for people who think, oh my gosh, like, are you seriously, you know, talking about payment or we didn't no, but you weren't erased from existence. The second part of that that's so important is this is how this person feels. This person is saying what you need to read here, this person is saying, I felt erased, metaphorically and literally.

And so, Whether you like the way that that describes adoption or not for this person, even if it is this one person, which I can tell you that it is not, but they're saying, this writer is saying, I was erased. And that is something that we should really sit with and that's the problem with a lot of conversations surrounding adoption, is we don't allow someone to say something that bold, or that shocking.

However, someone, you know, whatever ears are, you know, falling on, however they would describe it. Whoa, that's bold. Whoa, that's shocking. I've never heard that before. And then sit with it and think about what it means for a person who wrote this anonymously, by the way, for a reason, because they did not feel that they could share this and connect their identity to it. This person feels erased. We have to sit with that.

Haley Radke: How uncomfortable does that make you feel to sit in that?

Reshma McClintock: It's terrible and so critical that we do it, and I think I, I don't wanna get too far, of course, but it's one of the things that is very frustrating about having these conversations about adoption that are so tough is that it's really just about acknowledging those feelings of adopted people who have been affected the most by adoption, who didn't have a voice or a choice, and have been spoken for, for most of our lives.

Many of us. It isn't that people that, that it isn't even, and you can read because I feel this, this piece, although it's very bold and very direct, I also feel a real tenderness about this piece. And I, I really can't read, I mean, frankly, most of the pieces at Dear Adoption without crying, but, but this one really, I feel those waves of emotions really, you know, rising up.

But I think that's the point. This isn't about writing, you know, you know when you get angry and they say, oh, if you get angry at someone, write a letter and then throw it away. You know? And that's how you get out your angry feelings. You know? That's not what Dear Adoption is. Dear Adoption is not the opportunity for someone to come write a letter to adoption and say all the things that they wanna say.

Write out all their aggressions, take everything out, and one fell swoop, and then crumple up and, and throw this away. We publish these for a reason. That's not the intended purpose for these letters. The intended purpose is for listening. The intended purpose is yes, to provide a platform so that this, this adopted person right here can come and say, I feel erased.

I feel that adoption erased me. And for us to sit uncomfortably or devastated or angry or confused, whatever emotion that evokes in any one of us. To sit with that for a minute, but to keep going back to the focus that there is a person here, a human being who is saying, I felt erased and that is important.

So this is not a throwaway letter. This isn't a get out all your anger. This person actually doesn't sound enraged to me. There's this softness about the letter that is so gentle, but it's truth, and sometimes the truth is hard to hear. And it, this wasn't hard for me to, to be clear, this wasn't hard for me to hear.

I relate to this. There was a part of me that felt a little exposed in reading it and you said that too, that you said, I felt like, oh man, this one's close to home and we do that when we hear other adopted people's stories and we think, oh, I'm, I'm not sure I could have said that out loud or, I felt that, but the feelings never actually been articulated.

Um, I couldn't formulate the words surrounding this feeling and I love that. That's why I love Dear Adoption. That's why I love the different way that other people articulate. You know, that, that binder I was talking about earlier, that we have this thing that binds us all together as adopted people. And even if our experiences may be incredibly different, there's this thing that kind of, this like one tone, right that we all hit. So anyway. Yeah. It, it's hard. That silence, even just between you and I was rough. But so important.

Haley Radke: I was going to leave it even longer and then I thought, I can't, I can't have to say something.

And I'm usually good, like, you know, in a lot of interviews, I mean, you guys don't hear this cause it gets cut out. But I will wait, will wait and wait and give somebody space to like, you know, are you finished your answer, are you gonna think of something else? And you know, if somebody gets uncomfortable enough with the silence, they will fill it and sometimes some truth really comes out in there.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah and I think that that's the mistake we all make. I'm guilty of this, so this is not me looking to point the finger at, at anyone, at, at adoptive parents or society or anyone. It's the mistake we all make is not sitting with what someone is telling us.

Often enough, and I am a parent. You're a parent. I do it every day with my own daughter. She'll tell me a feeling or tell me something that happens and I immediately go into, well, it depends. I mean, frankly, if it's something that I feel is a critique or a criticism of me, I might go into defense mode. If it's something where I feel like she doesn't understand the situation, I go into explain mode.

If it's something where I feel like she's hurt and I don't want her to feel that way, or she's angry and I don't want her to feel that way or left out, and I don't want her feel that way, I immediately go into, you know, explaining away those feelings. No, I'm sure that's not what they meant. I'm sure they weren't really angry with you.

Oh, I'm sure you misread the situation. Right? We go when we, and, and, and that's, there's a, there's a quote out there that circulates, uh, you know, on different memes and things all the time that talks about, you know, listening, listening to respond versus listening to hear. And I run into that all the time, right?

So I'm listening to what my daughter has to say and with, and already formulating my response and I don't sit with it. So when we read this in a Dear Adoption piece, you know, I essentially to that one paragraph and this person is saying, I was erased. I feel erased as a parent, as a friend, we might, you know, if we were in conversation with this person, immediately go into, but you weren't.

But look at who you are and look at all you have at, right? We go into explain away or encourage or whatever with really good intent. But the reality is, and, and especially in adoption in these situations with these really difficult, emotionally complex conversations that we need to be able to sit with what, when someone is saying.

And so if I tell my Dad, I love you and I'm so glad I'm in this family, but I also wish I wasn't adopted. It's okay if we just sit there in silence for a minute, right? And he doesn't have to say, oh, but you're our daughter, or whatever. Whatever he might say, right? It's okay for him and I to just sit with that and for that statement to just sit out there, even if it's uncomfortable.

Haley Radke: Are you worried I'm gonna leave a long silence now?

Reshma McClintock: No, like tapping over here. Okay.

Haley Radke: I love it. Quick, Haley. Think of something to say. Yeah. Um, okay. Yes. Wow. So I mean, just that, that one line alone is, um, worth the really paying attention to. Um, the next line that you highlighted to me was, I only half exist despite what you see.

Reshma McClintock: Yes. In correlation with the next line, which says, you see the beautifully crafted exterior I was forced to create. So this resonates crazy deep with me because I was the adopted poster child. I was given this wonderful life with this wonderful family and, um, what the, the, the most important thing I think in, in these conversations that we have about adoption is same as what we said before.

As, as someone's talking and or talking about their adoption, and we're immediately kind of coming up in our own head with what our response would be. This is one of those important times where someone will say something and then the response is, yeah, but I know adopted people who don't feel that way.

Or I, you know, or my adopted children don't want to meet their birth families or my adopted children, you know, feel like one of us, or, or whatever that statement may be, right? It could be any one of a million things. I'm that adopted kid. I was that adopted kid. I'm now an adopted adult. We have to stop with the infantilizing of ourselves even.

So I think that's really important. You see the beautifully crafted exterior I was forced to create because so often with adopted people, we know what the answer is that somebody wants from us and so we give them that. We give the people what they want and they want to hear that we're grateful, that we're happy, that we're content.

They want to hear that we feel loved. They want to feel, hear that we feel we belong. They want to hear that we aren't missing something that we don't have. Sure, that's true of all parents. For adopted people, it's an extra burdensome thing. And so you see the beautifully crafted exterior was forced to create and I just think that's really, a very good description of the experience for many adopted kids.

Haley Radke: I was on Twitter today as I often am, even though I don't post much, I am reading, I promise. And a couple of different people were sharing in a thread, and one told about how when she experienced abuse in childhood, her adoptive parents didn't believe her. And then several adoptees responded saying, I didn't even tell mine because I knew they wouldn't believe me. And that hit really hard for me because I think that goes along with what you're just saying here and what this writer says, you see the beautifully crafted exterior I was forced to create. And I think there's something to that being the perfect adopted child, gotta live up to those expectations, gotta make it worth that paperwork we filled out.

And I feel so sad for that child that didn't feel safe enough to really just be themselves. And felt they had to put on the exterior in whatever manner that looked like. Maybe it's being perfect all the time so we, you know, earn our spot in the family or hiding things that we don't think will be believed on. I mean, it could be a variety of things, but that's what that brings up for me. Reshma McClintock: Yeah, I hear you on that and I think that it's so interesting to me as a parent, it's easier for me to understand some of the challenges and, and how so many of these things just cross over into parenthood in general, right. But we're talking about, you know, children who've been traumatized by being separated from their families. And so that's, you know, obviously that's really important, but I'm, I'm not an adoptive parent. Of course my daughter is, uh, my biological daughter. But I think that it is difficult to not speak for our children.

And you and I have had a conversation about this before, but I cringe when an adoptive parent says to me, my kids feel, or my kids don't, or my kids do, or, I've never heard them. Well, no, not that. I guess. I guess it's all those assumptions that are made because all, many of the things that my parents could have and did, you know, say about me, there was something beneath the surface for me.

And we have to be so careful not to do that, especially with adopted people. And it isn't just kids, right? As an adult, we still do this for other adults and I have family and friends who will say, you know, still to me, even after kind of all the work that, that I've, you know, kind of been doing and the different things that they've seen and will still say, well, I know an adopted person who would say they weren't traumatized at all.

And I always say, great for them, that's, but, but the truth is you don't know anything because the one thing I do know as an adopted person is that we are very careful about what we say and when we say, and sometimes those feelings just haven't come to the surface and whatever. And I'm not trying to impose a situation or a story or a feeling on anyone, but I'm just saying we have to be open to those things, to those other experiences. And so often I think, again, with good intent, although, you know, we know what the road to, you know, what is, you know, paved with good intentions. But, um, or you know, where I should say with good intent, you know, people say, well, my kids don't feel that way. Or, and I think the truth is you don't really know how your kids feel and I don't really know how my kid feels about many things because we're their parents. So on one hand we know them very, very well and on the other hand, it's innate for them to want to protect us. And for adopted kids, it is like next level protect your parents, protect your family, do what you have to do to survive, to keep all that in place.

And again, and, and I'm not trying to get too far away from this piece and make it about me, but just as far as where this fits with me, I grew up in your ideal, safe community. Safe home, safe family. There was not abuse. There was not isolation. I was as safe as you get and I still felt an incredible burden to protect and preserve my family relationships.

And I did not wanna talk about adoption because I did not want to bring up the fracture, right? I didn't want to point out that there were things that, you know, that we weren't all together from the beginning and maybe weren't all supposed to be together all the way from the beginning. That there is something here that I did lose something in order to join this family.

I was terrified to bring those things up in the safest environment one can have. So if you can imagine any, you know, as you kind of remove layers of safety that different people have experienced, that different adopted people have experienced, of course they would want to protect their family.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, you know, we talk about like trauma kids and this, if we haven't worked on this in ourselves and we, we have this constant state of vigilance and we know when it's safe and when it's not safe to share that information. Um, so this is very understandable. I was gonna say understandable behavior, but it's very understandable that we would hide things to protect ourselves and protect our, um, adoptive families. Okay. Um, is there anything else that you want to share about this particular letter?

Reshma McClintock: Um, the last couple of things, just, um, the next couple of lines after the portion we just talked about you celebrate who you think I am, who you think I am because I'm adopted. You know, this is just a really, a tricky thing in adoption and that a lot of adopted people deal with is the celebration surrounding adoption and how much is missed when we celebrate. And I'm not saying like, you know, we should have funerals well, you know what? Maybe I am, maybe I'm saying we should have funerals.

Haley Radke: Well, you see, you see celebrate and I see the gotcha day party.

Reshma McClintock: Yes. Well, exactly. Okay. And I was kind of making a joke when I, you know, when I'm saying it's not that I'm saying there shouldn't be any celebration and that we should be having, you know, going to that extreme, a funeral, but the reality is there, there is this immense loss and death of a life of a person, of maybe what was intended to be.

And for whatever reason, and, and I'm not getting into whether someone should have been adopted or not. Every search circumstance is unique and I don't know even the circumstance of the person who wrote this, but I will say that is such an important thing. You celebrate who you think I am, who you think I am, because I'm adopted.

And in those celebrations, so much can be missed. I'm not saying it is every time. I'm not saying that a family, there might not be families out there who are celebrating and grieving together. I don't know what that looks like for every family. I'm just saying as a society we tend to celebrate.

And, and that's what, um, one of the conversations the writer and I had about this was that society just wants to celebrate adoption. And the quote from the writer and one of the emails I received was, and I am just tired of those celebrations because for me it brings up all the loss. So yeah. So I joke about, you know, maybe we shouldn't celebrate and should have a funeral, but metaphorically, that's how you know what it feels like, right?

Like maybe, you know, we are grieving, which goes to the next line. You don't grieve with me. You don't feel the loss that lives inside my bones and you and I have had this conversation many, many times, those two portions go together. You celebrate who you think I am because I'm adopted, and you don't grieve with me and feel the loss that lives inside my bones.

That one, ugh, that one really, really hits me because that loss is everlasting and the grief is ever present. So when everyone else is celebrating and not acknowledging the grief, not speaking about the grief, ignoring all the things that came before adoption day or whatever, whatever day the day you came home, the day, you know, whatever those, you know, birthdays are those celebratory days.

You know, we're feeling the loss. This person is saying, you don't grieve with me. You don't feel the loss that lives inside my bones and, um, that's another profound statement that needs some time to sit with and, and let resonate, that kind of loss, that degree of loss. As a society we're so fixated on certain losses, you know, and, and then when it comes to adoption, we're so quick to celebrate.

And I think, you know, in, in some sense, sometimes to me it just feels like a giant cover up. These celebrations, like we're just trying to cover up that there was ever anything, you know, and quick, quick, quick, quick. Make it better. And, um, the reality is it's just a terrible, terrible way of going about the process of having the loss of family and biological inherent, you know, cultural layers.

It's just a really, could not be a worse way really to go about it than to celebrate and ignore the grief.

Haley Radke: It's so confusing, right? Like, so this line about feeling it in your bones is so visceral. And even as you were reading it, I'm like, cold. I'm feeling like tingles in my arms, like you know, getting like the goosebumps and uh, then I'm picturing the party when, you know, internally we're like, this is so confusing. What's happening to me? Where is my family and here's a party. Like, get it together. It's time to pretend like it's very, it's very upsetting to think about that and thank you for articulating that so well.

Um, in your last thought there, I just think it is something we really do need to consider and you know, so many parents do the gotcha day thing and I've asked several times in polls and you know, on Twitter or on Instagram about how people feel about gotcha days. And my listener representation, most of my listeners really hate that. They hate it, they hated it. Um, then they hate it now. They hate it when their parents call them and say, oh, it's your, you know, like, still some celebrated into adulthood and, and they feel really angry about it. And, um, of course that's not all adoptees. I've heard from some that do enjoy that celebration and I didn't experience that. We didn't do that. It wasn't really a thing at my house, but I, what I watch now is the Instagram ones, you know? Yes. It's very uncomfortable.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah. And what's interesting is, You know, we, we didn't do it either growing up, I actually didn't even know the day that I came home, the, the day that I came over from India. I didn't even know any of that until we had started planning the documentary and then I looked at my paperwork. So I didn't know until I was well into my thirties, um, when I left India, when I got home, or the day that, you know, I officially was adopted in the U.S. But I think that, yes, I would say, I feel like I can comfortably say that for the most part, most adopted adults who are out of the fog are not fans of Gotcha day.

Or, celebrating it in that sense. You're right, though, it is confusing because, uh, and not for everybody, but for some people, I mean, some people are just a firm, no, you know, we're not celebrating, there's no confusion here for me, right? Like, many people feel that way. Like I'm not confused about whether I wanna celebrate this or not.

But there are people where, who it is, where it's confusing and it isn't that I don't like a party, it isn't that I don't want to be celebrated. Right. Or, and it isn't that again, you know, we go back to the same word every stinking time. But it isn't that, I'm not grateful. It isn't, you know, it has nothing to do with that.

It's mostly that it's so ignored that the grief and the loss are ignored and all, and then there's this big, you know, party and celebration and this glorifying of adoption and glorifying of adoptive parents and all of that minimizes an adoptive person. And so, that's, you know, in this piece, you know, saying, I love how just direct it is.

You celebrate who you think I am, who you think I am because I'm adopted. You don't grieve with me. You don't feel the loss that lives inside my bones. Now I'm obviously putting my own expression into that, the way I read that. And you can read it in multitude of ways, but I think that, you know, I read it that way, that time intentionally because it is somewhat accusatory. Adoption, you are, you know, have this big old party and, you know, society's representation of adoption is that it's glorified and this, you know, really great win, win, win, win, win. And you know, all the while totally missing our losses. And that's the part, it's like just, I mean, minimally acknowledge them, right?

Minimally acknowledge them instead of, you know, leading the way. Is this party, this gotcha day? You know, all the gains of the adoptive family. There was a quote that I put out on Dear Adoption over the summer that said, your gains are our losses. You know, and I think that's, that's, that's how I feel so much of the time about adoption.

And, you know, I had a great conversation with a dear friend of mine who's an adoptive parent who's really out of the fog. And she had gone to her kids after we'd had lots of conversations about gotcha day and said, you know, do you, should we stop using gotcha day? And she came back to me and she said, well, you know, I get now that it's problematic, but my kids are like, at the time, I think like six and nine.

And she said, but they like it now like it's become a part of our family. And so it's comfortable and familiar to them. And so in that regard, you know, I think it's just we would, I would probably go back to, you see the beautifully crafted exterior I was forced to create, right? We are comfortable with what we know that our parents, like, we know you guys want the party, we know you want to celebrate the day I came into your family.

We know that it's difficult for you to acknowledge what we lost or that we weren't born to you. Right. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still work on that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still work on moving further away from this, you know, celebratory party and moving, you know, more toward acknowledging the grief and the loss of an adopted person.

Haley Radke: And my last thought on this line, you don't feel the loss that lives inside my bones is, I read that and then I think you can't feel the loss.

Reshma McClintock: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: I'm laughing cause I hear a, I was just gonna say,

Reshma McClintock: I know why you're doing that. They're edging or something. I dunno what he's doing or leaf flowing.

Haley Radke: You know what, it's real life. That's what's happening in the background. We're not always pristine. No problem. Um, okay. Have I sufficiently mind your thoughts on this piece?

Reshma McClintock: Absolutely. I, you know, thanks for giving me the opportunity to share this. I did share with the writer that we would be discussing this and they were very pleased but I wanted to tell you the one thing that did come up in our email conversation was they said, I wish I could be brave enough to do it myself.

To go because you and I have talked about that, about bringing a writer on, who isn't anonymous. Right. And um, and I just said, it's okay. You know, you do what you can. It's brave enough that this person was able to articulate those incredible, incredibly profound thoughts. Um, they have opened the doors for so many other people to also be brave and share their thoughts.

So I just wanted to mention that I think this writer is one of the bravest people I have ever been able to have a conversation with. This is, you know, Dear Adoption is bravery at its core. And I'm so, I'm so proud of my community and, and this person who's, who will be listening, um, you are the bravest and, um, I'm so, so proud and I'm so, so thankful. Just on a personal note for what this piece has done for me and the doors that it's opened for so many people that we'll never even know. So this is beautiful bravery on display.

Haley Radke: Well said. I started crying as soon as you said that because there's a cost to, you know, sharing your picture publicly or your voice publicly or your name publicly. But there's a cost to writing these words down even when your name's not on it. So I know that price has already been paid.

Reshma McClintock: Thank you for acknowledging that. Absolutely. I agree. It, the pieces that are anonymous are not less than. They're not less impactful. They're not, uh, they don't take any less to write.

And, arguably, if anything, if you feel the need to be anonymous and you can still put this out there, that's. Incredible.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Okay, I'm gonna get myself together. Rashma, one month ago from the time this episode's gonna go up, you were in Washington, DC for a really special event, the Department of State's Intercountry Adoption Symposium.

Now, I know lots of this is top secret. Did you know, did you guys know that Russia's, like in the, like, tops, she had to sign stuff? I've been watching Jack Ryan. It's like, like spy level stuff, right? No, I mean, I, she's not allowed to say it's okay.

Reshma McClintock: I mean, I had a badge. I'm just saying, so if you're, if you're questioning my legitimacy, I had a badge with my name on it.

Haley Radke: So she's not gonna confirm or deny anything. Uh, but, um, all joking side. This was a really important opportunity and I just wanted to give you a chance to kind of share with us what you can maybe about some of the adoptees that you met when you were there, what was kind of happening, kind of give us the gist of it and then, um, we'll point you to some other posts. You can read about it a little bit more about, um, what was talked about there. So why don't you go ahead and share a little bit of what happened at the Department of State's Intercountry Adoption Symposium.

Reshma McClintock: Well, it was a real honor to be, um, asked to attend. There were a few of us, uh, intercountry adoptees who were invited, uh, Linnell Long, who is the founder of ICAV, which is Intercountry Adoptee Voices, kind of, she's, she's based in Australia.

She's a Vietnamese adoptee, who was raised in Australia, but she's been just working, I don't know, I mean in the trenches for decades now, doing incredible work. I am incredibly honored to know her and she's kind of worked to rally some of us in the United States because of some contacts that she had.

And so there was a group of us that were invited, and I'll be really honest, uh, part of the title says, uh, you know, talked about the improving the future of intercountry adoption. And I thought, well, hmm. Does that really align with what I'm out here doing? Am I looking to, you know, I mean focusing more on that word future, um, because I personally would like to see, you know, more family preservation, much less adoption.

Although the future regarding ethics is a very important to me. This was the first time adopted people had been invited to these conversations.

Haley Radke: Oh, that, yes. Don't gloss over that. Say that again.

Reshma McClintock: Yes. Yes. This is the first time that adopted people were invited to these conversations at this particular meeting. Right. Yeah.

Haley Radke: That’s shocking.

Reshma McClintock: It's great. Yeah and, extraordinary. So, I'll tell you really honestly, I first received the invitation. I was like, I am not going to that. That sounds awful. And I don't mean that disrespectfully, even though I kind of said it disrespectfully, but I, don't mean it disrespectfully.

I just was like, oh no, this is, this is not for me. And, I hadn't read everything about it yet. Um, I hadn't really heard exactly what it was about, but I thought, no, that sounds like less, you know, my wheelhouse than what's, um, you know, than what, what I'd really like to focus on. However, it did not take me long to read the description about really what the intent was, who would be attending, that adopted people had not been at these meetings before.

To realize that one of the hard things, I guess, about life in general is, and, and advocacy specifically, is that we're kind of out here. And I've been out here for the last in adoption land for about five years. Yeah. And I've been asking for a seat at the table, right? A lot, a big part of my message has been less adoption professionals, less adoptive parents, um, you know, kind of dominating the narrative and more adoptee voices, so it doesn't really make sense to then finally, what, five years later, receive an invitation saying, we would like to hear from you and say, no, I think I'll go ahead and sit this one out.

Right? So it felt, like I said, my initial instinct was, oh my gosh, this is so not for me. And, and very quickly followed by, I absolutely have to go. I need to be there. There's a lot of people who would love to have this opportunity and the right thing is for me to take this opportunity, and to advocate.

Whatever I, to whatever extent I can for adopted people and our voices to be heard. So it was a really extraordinary group of people. I would love to list their names, except that because of my own shortcomings, I'll forget someone and then I'll feel terrible and I won't sleep for like six to eight weeks.

So, I'm not going to list their names for that reason only. But I did post a photo on Facebook and they're all tagged, so we can check that out if you want. Anyway, it's, it's just my own memory, and it's not that I don't know who they are, but, basically the conversations, the first day it was a three-day event that we were a part of.

Uh, the conversations the first day were really difficult. A lot of adoptive parents and adoption professionals and adoption service providers is what they call them, ASPs. And so, and a lot of the ASPs are also adoptive parents. And so the first day of conversations was really challenging. I did not feel seen the first day.

I did not feel heard. The first day. I felt like what my initial response was when I thought, I shouldn't go, this isn't the space for me. I thought, oh my goodness, I'm not really sure why I came here. Um, this is all very much, a lot of the conversation was centered around like deregulating, intercountry adoption.

Like let's have less procedure, less rules. And this is not from the department of state. This is just from people who are attending saying, you know, we need to make this quicker. We need to make this easier and we need to make it more affordable, intercountry adoption. And I'm thinking, no, no, no, no. To all of those things.

So, the first day was challenging. That being said, I'm asking people to listen to adopted people, even when what they're saying is difficult to hear. I also have got to be willing to do that. And the biggest takeaway from the hard parts of the adoption symposium for me were that I too need to be listening to some extent just to know what we're up against. Right? It's really important to know what the intent is of adoption service providers in the United States, what the, you know, oftentimes on both ends. You know, adopted people, adopted adults who are advocates have been demonized and, to a certain extent, many organizations and agencies have been demonized and kind of grouped in with this over zealous desire to, you know, take babies out of the arms of their mothers right.

And ship them overseas. And so we kind of paint this picture and I have to tell you, it's not really easy for me to say this. I'm just gonna say that too, cause I'm super, totally very human. I was surprised to, from many of the conversations I had with adoption service providers who, yes are encouraging and hoping for there to be more adoptions, but to hear from them that they really do feel like they have a narrow lane that they need to stay in.

That they are not eagerly swooping in wanting to take babies and separate them. That many of them, and I'm talking individual people, not agencies as a whole. Okay. Cause it is an industry. It is a business. These people do lose their jobs if, you know, the commodities decrease. So there, you know, that's just a plain fact of the matter.

But that there were many people who work in the adoption service industry in the adoption service provider industry who are saying in their offices, among their coworkers, wait, wait, wait, that is not our area. We need to only be looking at children who we are, certain are orphans, who we are certain, you know, need families.

And while there's a lot of gray area there, and I still don't totally agree with many of it, I still personally wouldn't work for those agencies. I still personally wouldn't partake in those things. I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised to see many people who are trying to do something, who are trying to create an ethical shift in intercountry adoption. So take that for what you will.

Haley Radke: Okay. So that sounds positive.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah and I'm a little bit ping pongy about it. You know how I like to say ping pong. Um, I ping pong back and forth between feeling like, wait a minute, is that possible? It's some, you know, somebody joked with me like adoption ethics, that's an oxymoron.

Right. And I agree to with that to a certain extent, but I also just like what you said earlier in our conversation, we are for family preservation, we are for children. And, there may be a circumstance in which the absolute last resort does need to come to place. And in that circumstance, there does need to be strong ethics.

If an, if a child, if, if we exhaust every resource and every family member and everything we can, then there has got to be ethics in place and regulations in place to make sure that we really, truly have exhausted every resource. So, I would say that for me, that was the positive takeaway. I felt like I listened and I felt like I learned, and that doesn't mean that I felt like I was schooled.

I don't feel like it, I was like, oh, whoa, I've been wrong this whole time. No, no, no. I still stand, I, I still, I walked away from the meetings standing by and more firmly attached to my personal convictions of family preservation, adoption as a last resort. I feel more firm about that than ever, but I also feel like there is some positive headway.

Haley Radke: Did you feel, at some point you said the shocking first time adopted people have been invited. Did you feel that adoptee voices were listened to?

Reshma McClintock: So, on day two, there were many opportunities for adopted people to really share. And I mean, if I'm being really honest, you could look around the room and just by reading faces, although this isn't, you know, a perfect science, but just by reading faces, you could tell who's listening and who isn't. When an adopted person is sharing even, if their view isn't controversial, even if what they're saying isn't controversial, you can kind of get a baseline just by looking at the body language and the facial expressions from people who's listening and who isn't.

For the most part, I walked away feeling heard, for me personally, so I wouldn't speak for the other people there, although I know some would say that as well. I felt like the members of the Department of State who were there did hear me, what I had to say. When I had the opportunity to address those, attending the symposium, I said, there is a group of us here representing intercountry adoptees all over the United States.

We want to be heard. We need to be heard. My, you know, biggest statement was, we are the most valuable and most untapped resource on adoption. And that we're here and you need to hear from us. So, um, I think that was really important for me to have an opportunity to convey. And I did feel heard, I have received emails and responses from adoption service providers and from other people who attended saying, we did hear you.

We want to hear more. And I feel like that's the reason I went. And so overall, I feel like it was a really good decision to go. I feel like it's, it is difficult to accept those invitation. It was emotionally exhausting. It was physically exhausting. It was costly. We all paid our own way. It was, you know, a lot on every level.

However, it was worth my time to be there. And, you know, and not everybody gets the opportunities all the time to do these things. So next time it may be someone else and not me, and I'm excited about that because we need to keep having new people come up and, and get involved and find other ways and other people have a, you know, different ways of articulating and expressing themselves.

And I think that's really exciting to kind of see our community build and grow. And so that's one of the things we're kind of coming out away from the symposium that we're hoping is that, those people who do wanna get involved with these different areas that we're trying to address adoption ethics and intercountry adoption, adoptee citizenship.

That's a really, really important one. Um, post adoption services, that's really important. And then there's all these adoptees online in adoption land saying I wanna be involved. And, um, we're hoping, we have ICAV U S A now, which is a Facebook group, and we're hoping that people will come and join and we can kind of direct people and make these opportunities more visible. To more adopted people so that people can really get involved and we can be a part of the, you know, this transformation that we hope to see.

Haley Radke: That's awesome. We are gonna link to that Facebook group. So if what Rush has been talking about is kind of lighting your fire, go ahead and click through the show notes so you can join that group and figure out some ways you can get involved.

And I will also link to, there's two blog posts that kind of expand a little bit more about the symposium and what happened there. Um, so Linnell Long wrote one and you can find that at Intercountry Adoptee Voices. And the title of that blog post is Adoptee Activism in America. And then MJ of Beyond Two Worlds wrote, privileging The Voice of Adoptees and in her summary of that event.

So I will link to both of those in the show notes. Thanks for giving us a little taste of what that was like. I appreciate that and I was just so excited to kind of, you know, watch your travels over there since I was just in DC earlier this year and gosh, that is just a really special place to be and I'm Canadian. I'm Canadian, so, you know, that’s saying something.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah. There is something about Washington, DC it's just, you can feel it in the air, the, you know, I dunno, I dunno what, how to even describe it. The power almost right. Something powerful about Washington, DC that you can feel?

Haley Radke: Yes, definitely. Okay. Let's do our recommended resources. Why don't you go first?

Reshma McClintock: Well, mine is ICAV, Intercountry Adoptee Voices. Um, again, founded by Lynelle Long. Their website is IntercountryAdopteeVoices.com. Lynelle has, you know, put together a plethora of resources and different adoptee perspectives and stories, and there's just a lot of really good information there, and there is a lot to glean from that online space.

There is so much to learn. I'd encourage you to go there to read the different articles and blog posts, to look at the different resources and take a minute to pause and, you know, sit with them. It's an extraordinary community that Lynelle has created and it's just, it's really exciting. It was wonderful.

That was one of the great things was to get to meet in Washington, DC so many of the people who contributed to ICAV and that also, you know, really made it worth the trip. So if you specifically, if you are an intercountry adoptee, this is a great community for you to be a part of.

Haley Radke: Absolutely and I am cheering from the sidelines since that's not my experience. So happy to highlight it and I won't invade the space cause it's not my place. Okay. So mind y'all, if this is gonna feel a little bit self-promo E um, I don't know how to say this, Resh. I got asked to be a guest for the hundredth episode of Damon Davis's podcast. Oh my, really!

Reshma McClintock: It was so good!

Haley Radke: So it just feels funny to be that, to be my recommended resource, cause it was me. But you know what? It's really not about that. I wanna say a big congratulations to Damon. Um, you know, when this airs, it'll be, you know, like a month ago since he posted his show. But a hundred episodes, no jokes. So much work and highlighting adoptive voices.

So a big congratulations to Damon and Resh. You were actually a guest on my hundredth, um, show as well. So I just, I remember that milestone and, um, just kind of special to be a part of it. So I was really honored to be Damon's guest for that.

Reshma McClintock: Okay, and I'm gonna hop in real quick, if not supposed to. It is, this interview is so good. Um, and I just wanna quickly say because, uh, to the people listening who love the Hailey Show and love Haley. Haley is a, I am a fan of the show, and I consider Haley to be one of my absolute dearest friends. And she shared things I didn't know. And it was, it felt really, I mean, frankly, really honored just to hear so many of those parts of your story.

And Damon did an incredible job interviewing you. Um, I really appreciate him and his work. The interview is extraordinary. It is worth your time. Everybody go find it. Hailey, you were just lovely and I really appreciate you. So thank you for doing that interview. I know that was outside your comfort zone, but I'm so thankful that you did it.

Haley Radke: Thank you, Resh. I didn't care to say that. No. Um, thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing another great letter to adoption with us and you can check out Resh all the places. Tell us where can we connect with you online?

Reshma McClintock: When you call me Resh, then ever other people call me Resh. Could you use my first and last?

Haley Radke: When you email Resh, make sure you call her Resh and don't say Reshma, you just say Resh and just double down cause of us.

Reshma McClintock: Oh, bet it'll become a thing. Yeah, I'm teasing you. Um, see, this is why we shouldn't do interviews together because I just, there's too many sidebars for you.

Okay. Yes. You can find me on Facebook, Reshma McClintock, and I'm on Instagram as well. Um, my website is ReshmaMcClintock.com, which kind of links you to the other areas that I'm involved in as well. Of course, Dear Adoption is DearAdoption.com and there's a lot of really extraordinary letters coming out over the next few months, so I'm really excited about that. So thanks Haley, for your platform and for sharing it with people like me and I love coming together. It's just my favorite thing.

Haley Radke: So fun. Thank you.

I am so grateful that there are adoptees writing about their experiences, sharing them on their own blogs, writing Dear Adoption pieces, just micro blogging on Instagram. That has been a whole thing. Are you following other adoptees on Instagram? You really should be. Some people have been sharing some really insightful things lately, and on Twitter.

Oh my goodness, there's so many ways you can be connected and be sharing your story in your own way with your own platform. I'm so grateful for each one of you that shares, shares your story. One way you can really help the podcast to keep going is to share this episode with just one adopted person that you know, maybe you heard the letter and you thought, oh my goodness.

I, this is the first person that came to mind and I'm gonna share this episode with them cause I think it will really impact them. I think that would be a really nice thing to do for someone and then you can have a conversation about it and how adoption has impacted both of your lives. I love it when people tell me that the podcast has become a conversation starter.

And, I've heard some of you are using it in your support groups. You'll listen to an episode and then you'll talk about it next time. I love that, any creative ways we can engage in conversation with each other is just I think it's so healing and so helpful and I also just wanna say a giant thank you to all of my monthly supporters.

I wouldn't be able to do the show without you guys. And I know I say that every single week, but it's so true. It's so very true. So if you wanna be a partner and make sure the show keeps going, you can go to AdopteesOn.com/partner and there's a link there and details to all the ways you can support the show.

And yeah, I had Reshma on an episode of Adoptees Off Script this Monday. Um, and that was just for supporters of the show and we had a good time and also some laughs and shared some things we wouldn't share on this public episode. So if you need to hear more from Reshma, she is, often a co-host over on Adoptees Off Script, AdopteesOn.com/partner.

Okay. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

119 Mary O'Rourke

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/119

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast for adoptees to discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 119. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I am honored to introduce you to Mary O'Rourke. Mary shares the difficult news she received in her non-identifying information at age 21. We discussed her reunion with her birth mother and sister, the added complexity of coming out twice as queer, and how she ended up finding a grief support group and an adoption competent therapist.

We are going to reference sexual violence at a few points during this episode, so please make sure you're listening without little ears around and that you're in a safe head space, if that topic is difficult for you. We are gonna wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, AdopteesOn.com.

Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Mary O’Rouke. Hi Mary.

Mary O'Rourke: Hi Hailey. How are you?

Haley Radke: I'm doing really well and I'm really excited to chat with you. Thanks so much for agreeing to share your story with us. Why don't you start out with that?

Mary O'Rourke: Sure. I am about 24 years old now, but in April of 2016, I was about 21 years old at the time. My older sister, my older adopted sister, was 24 at the time, and she wanted to request her non-identifying information and my adoptive mom always told us that if we searched, we had to search together because she wanted us to have each other. And so my adoption was a closed adoption. I didn't know anything about my relinquishment or conception story or anything like that and so I had just turned 21, which is the minimum age that you have to be to request your non-identifying information.

Haley Radke: In what state?

Mary O'Rourke: Massachusetts. So, I was adopted through Catholic Charities in Massachusetts. They no longer actually do adoption. They still have their like reunion services, but they don't do private adoption anymore. I had just turned 21, requested my non-identifying information, and I was definitely in the fog and very ignorant to the impact that this would have. I didn't think it was gonna be a big deal. I was like, sure that might be interesting to learn about. Let me see what this is all about.

And so I was like standing in the lobby of my crappy college apartment, and I just opened like the large manila envelope that Catholic Charities had sent me, and I was just like, gripping the banister so I wouldn't pass out because I had no idea like what I was gonna open, and I learned for the first time that day, like the story of my relinquishment and my birth mother was 15 years old when I was conceived, and she had been raped continuously by my birth father for over a year at that time. I believe she was about 13 or 14 years old when it first happened.

My birth father was 24, and he was actually married to my birth mother's sister, my biological Aunt. Both of my birth parents were in-laws and so some of the circumstances around my birth mother's family life, her parents were both abusive alcoholics and they were often neglectful. So her home wasn't really what I would call stable.

I think that along with her being so young and like the circumstances around my conception wanting me to be safe from my birth father were reasons in the pro column for relinquishment. I was born two months early and I weighed, I looked in the records, I weighed 1745 grams, which is about 3.8 pounds.

Ron, my birth father did not want to relinquish his parental rights, but he had to go to court for statutory rape charges. Sentencing took eight months, so even though my birth mother wanted me to be placed with the family right away, I ended up in foster care for eight months. In the non-identifying records, it states specifically that my biological Aunt Katie, who was the one who was married to Ron, said she wanted to raise me. But she was not interested in raising me if my birth father was sentenced to a long sentence, I will adopt her only if Ron doesn't go to prison.

The social worker who sent me the information was also the same worker that handled the case 21 years ago. She met with both Ron and my birth mother, and she relayed to me that she's never forgotten the case and she remembers specifically how unremorseful Ron was like had no concept that what he did was wrong. It was also clear to me based on Ron's physical description, that I looked a lot like him, in particular my eyes, which are big and blue, and they were always the first thing that anyone ever commented and so that day and learning that, changed a lot about my relationship with myself and my body. Like my body never really felt like mine anymore in a way that it had before.

I think for adoptees we often find joy and comfort when we meet our first families and we can see ourselves in them because it's a really unique experience that you haven't had before. You finally see someone with your traits and I did get some of that in reunion, but physically I look a lot like him, which has been difficult. Obviously, I don't want to be like someone who did something so terrible. In April, that's when I got the records and in July, I had my first phone call with my birth mother, Meg. We exchanged letters in between that time and I see my relationship with her as something positive that came out of this.

I had responded to letters that she had left to me when I was growing up. She wrote one to me when I was maybe about eight years old, another one when I was like 18. So I had a few letters to respond to her to get us started that was in my non identifying information, so I had no idea growing up that those things were left for me.

There was also a baby book that I had no idea about, a picture of us the day I was born and just a picture of me. So two pictures, pictures of me in foster care and also my name was Hope. Hope, why not? Which I always say is really corny, but also really sweet. And so, she wrote down the Emily Dickinson poem for me, Hope is a Thing with Feathers. And I actually got my birth name tattooed on me as Why Not, Hope with a feather, which is just a side that I thought was sweet and a good way to honor that. So yeah, I didn't get that until I got my non-identifying information. After our first phone call in July, we met for the first time in August of 2016.

We got lunch. It was me, my adoptive sister, and Meg is my birth mom and Meg's other daughter Marie, who she raised. She's four years younger than I am, so at the time I think she was 17, she's about 20 years old currently. Yeah, we got lunch. It was like super…I think we were all really nervous, like no one really ate anything.

Marie told me that Meg was shaking on the car ride over there. Just like shaking on the steering wheel because she was so nervous. It was clear to me from the beginning how well Meg and I connected, and that wasn't really something that I felt with my adoptive parents. As much as I love them, I think adoption is all about holding onto seemingly oppositional things at once, like the love with the anger, the grief with gratitude, which is, I know a loaded word in adoptee land. I don't subscribe to the grateful adoptee narrative. But for me personally, I am grateful that I received basic human rights of love and necessities because those rights aren't necessarily afforded to all of us.

And so meeting Meg was kind of holding the truth and the relief of, oh, I fit, I make sense here with the painful realization that, oh I could have made sense all along, like I didn't have to grow up in this world where I didn't make sense my whole life. And I will say, of course, nurture has an impact on who you are.

I like to compare being an adoptee in reunion, to being a round peg, repeatedly jammed into a square hole. So by the time you meet the round hole, you no longer fit there either because your round edges have been beat up over the years, so now you're just like a wonky hexagon.

Haley Radke: That is so good! I have never heard that before. That's like the perfect description.

Mary O'Rourke: I'm glad you can relate. I didn't know how relatable that was gonna be, but yeah, we're just a bunch of wonky hexagons. What can you say? Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Is that going to be the title of this episode? Okay. Thank you for sharing all of that. That is, whoa I mean, my jaw was on the floor the whole time you were talking and there's so many things I wanna ask you about. So can we just, let's pause here cause I wanna go back to, you don't even really want, necessarily wanna search, like it's not really your idea, you're kind of going along. Cause your sister is looking and what is it like to be 21, which is, my friend that's very young…to be 21 and open up this envelope and get this really devastating information about your conception.

Mary O'Rourke: I mean, shock is the only word I can really describe it as. It's not what I expected, right? There's no quote unquote normal adoptee story, but I think mine is particularly abnormal or else it felt like it was time. I think there are probably a lot more people that have had a similar story that it's just not represented in adopting narratives or in the media or anything like that. So it was very shocking.

It was very painful. I was very angry. I can't say I'm not still angry. I really felt guilt almost even though obviously, I had no choice in the matter. I felt guilty for Meg that she had to go through that for me to be born. Or like she was even, she was on bedrest for two months. Just a lot of guilt for everything that she had to do for me.

And obviously, anger at Ron and anger at a lot of the other adults in the story for not realizing what was happening over the course of over a year that this was happening. No one stepped in as soon as Meg told her parents that she was pregnant, they knew it was Ron. They said it before she did.

And yes, the fact that they had an inkling, like maybe they didn't know a hundred percent, but that they had an inkling that this was happening and they didn't intervene at all, is really upsetting. My biological Aunt's reaction to it was very upsetting, I mean that was written out in the non-identifying information so there was a lot of anger there.

Haley Radke: You also said, my body didn't feel like mine anymore. When you read Ron's physical description and kind of looking in the mirror thinking like, oh, do I look like him? How did that impact you?

Mary O'Rourke: It's impacted me a lot. Even though I was a kid, like I grew up with glasses and acne. I was made fun of a lot actually. Both of those things are his traits. I had pretty good self-confidence and self-worth. Surprisingly, I don't know how that happened. I don't know how I got away with that. But yeah, looking in the mirror and seeing his face and his traits just felt like another decision that I didn't get to make. I…it felt like almost his mark, like his ownership on me that I didn't wanna associate myself with. Yeah or even Meg, I worry that if she looks into my eyes or my face, that she sees him and what that experience is like for her. Like someone who abused her for all that time and I am him, basically.

Haley Radke: Wow. So when you first wrote to her. You already knew these things.

Mary O'Rourke: I did. So that was all in the non-identifying information packet. It also said some really sickening things like Ron described himself as a cheerful family man that donated to charities, that was his description of himself. So there was infuriating tidbits like that. But the first time we were exchanging letters. She just kind of said, I hope you're not angry with me. I love you so much. I hope we can reconnect, this is in your hands. I will always be here waiting for you, but this is your decision to make and I'll respect whatever decision it is that you make.

Haley Radke: So when you meet and you're having a meal together, and it's not just you and her, you've got two sisters, yeah. What happens from there?

Mary O'Rourke: From there, we like at the dinner itself or just in life, like after that day?

Haley Radke: Well both cause we kind of paused there at the, was it lunch, supper? What did you guys have? Did you order lunch? Nobody ate anything. So you ordered food, nobody, anything.

Mary O'Rourke: Yeah, I think it was lunch.

Mary O'Rourke: Yeah, I usually am really good about eating a ton of food at hot pot, but I just couldn't do it. You know it was, that moment was meaningful and that it was the first time that I was meeting my birth mother and my biological sister. So it was meaningful in that way, but we didn't…there was so much tension and awkwardness, I think with that meeting that it wasn't like we deeply connected that first meeting like we had.

It had been easier to talk on the phone. It had been easier to, I think, express feelings over letters. So this was like just getting the nerves out. I think the first time we met here's this strange thing that's happening and like how we deal with this. And it's also, you know we did have other people there.

And so, it's a little bit of managing relationships and trying to make sure that everyone's included. And actually that day my sister, my adoptive sister got information about her birth parents and she had to leave halfway through to meet someone to get it. So it was kind of a crazy day where everything was just happening all at once.

But after that day, and still now, we talk on the phone like almost every single day, and we see each other as often as we can. One of the most impactful things was learning that Meg was also queer and I use queer as like a blanket term for LGBT. We're using it as a blanket term. I know it wasn't always used that way. I am gay and I had my first queer relationship. I put that in quotations when I was really young. I was 13 years old and my adoptive parents, particularly my mom, they were not supportive of the relationship or me being gay. When she found out I was still seeing this person after she told me not to.

I came home and my room was trashed and anything she could find from the person that I was dating was thrown out…letters, pictures from school dances, and at the time, I didn't know the circumstances around my conception, but she started yelling that I was quote “like this” because of my father and that he was a rapist and I was just like him and she hated me.

And it really felt at that time when I was 13, 14 years old that she was second guessing adopting me. And at the time, I didn't really believe her or make the connection to my birth father because I didn't know that story and I didn't know anything about my birth. I didn't know that they knew anything about my birth family and I almost didn't wanna believe it.

Haley Radke: Right, yeah.

Mary O'Rourke: And it was only later when I was you know, 21 and in early reunion that I made the connection and eventually my mom and I's relationship did improve and she loved and accepted my college partner, but by that time, I had made the connection my mother was terminally ill with cancer and she was very close to death and much too ill to have a meaningful conversation.

So she died shortly after I turned 22 and I love my mother, and I'm not telling any of these stories to cause anyone any like pain or for vengeance, but I've learned in my life as an adoptee and a particular a queer adoptee that secrets that others have tried to make me keep about myself are toxic and add shame to my experience, and I can't hold them anymore.

And the fact that I even felt like I had to make that disclaimer is part of the loyalty that adoptees feel like they are betraying in reunion. It's hard to know that had I grown up with Meg, my coming out story would've been a lot easier there. I have several biological cousins and family members that have also come out as queer, and that would've been a completely different experience for me. And the intersectionality of my queerness and being adopted has affected reunion in particular with Meg's parents. So my biological grandparents, at first, her parents were very excited to meet me until they learned that I was gay. And then they said they would meet me, quote “socially.” But didn't want a relationship with me so.

Haley Radke: But didn't, did you say Meg was queer? Yes, that she identifies as that and are her parents okay with that or like?

Mary O'Rourke: So she's not out to her parents. She's married to a wonderful man now.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Mary O'Rourke: And she said that she didn't want to come out to them because then she would lose her relationship to them and her siblings won't take care of her parents in their old age. So I kind of agreed to be the lone out person because when you pin that against two elderly people dying alone, the choice seems easy.

Haley Radke: So what is seeing you socially but not having a relationship with? What does that even mean? Mary O'Rourke: I still ask myself the same thing, but I did meet them at a family party, and particularly Meg's mother was very rude to me the whole time. Didn't wanna talk to me, very snappy at anything I would say like, can I clear your plate? Like, just very snappy.

What's interesting is, I'm left-handed and I got that from her. So the one time she was remotely nice to me was when she noticed I was like, cutting cheese or something and she noticed I was cutting it with my left hand. And I think she said something about it. She was like, oh, this person is related to me somehow.

But also it's complicated right because they weren't great parents. I don't think that they, I mean they're maybe decent grandparents to the kids that they were grandparents to their entire lives, but you know they’re not the most loving people in general. There's just that added layer.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Do you have any advice or thoughts on this for other adopted people who are may be fearful of searching because maybe they did have a bad experience in coming out to their adoptive families. And then there's this whole other layer of searching and having to do that again. I liked what you just said, like you're, like, I'm telling them upfront cause I wanna know, you know, do you have any other thoughts on that? What would you say to someone who is in your similar position?

Mary O'Rourke: It is hard because you put yourself up for secondary rejection even more than if you were just an adoptee that was searching in general. I would probably recommend, obviously this is the way I did it. I can't tell you how it would've worked out in your circumstance or if you had done it the other way, but for me it was easier to approach the relationship with honesty and the good thing is that, in a way, for me, it was almost easier because I was meeting these people as adults.

It was harder in some ways, but easier in another where I was meeting these people as adults and so I was more comfortable with my feelings and my feelings around being gay and coming out, and I had done it before, you know I had been out for a long time at that point. So maybe wait until you're at a really good place with yourself and your identity before you reach out, because I do think you have to have a little bit of a thicker skin.

Also, try and get that upfront, like as soon as possible just to get it outta the way. I don't know. You don't wanna, I think it's harder almost to experience the love you could have had until you tell them. I don't know.

Haley Radke: Well you know to be really frank with you. I had never thought of that…of this in reunion until I interviewed Liz Latty. And she said some similar things except that she did come out to her biological father who happened to be evangelical Christian and so she was very nervous. And I remember that conversation very well, because I was just like, oh my word. Like it's something that someone like myself I just never would've thought of that.

It's that whole extra pressure and layer and so, thank you for sharing those pieces with us because a lot of us have no idea what that would be like, and to just be able to experience that with you is really meaningful. And I think they'll be really helpful for a lot of people listening.

Okay. You have shared some really hard stuff and I'm laughing, but it's not funny. It's just really challenging things, and I'm wondering how you navigated this you know like did you reach out for help in some way? Were you walking this alone? I mean this is really, really deep life stuff. As a young person. What were some of the things that you did to cope and make sure that you were safe as you did this?

Mary O'Rourke: Sure. So it's been three years since I first met my birth mother and if I'm being honest, for the first two years I did nothing. This time for me I mean It was extremely difficult, not only because I was grappling with this story about my relinquishment and my conception, but in this timeframe from slightly before I you know got the non-identifying information until now. I've lost six family members, 6, 5 family members. And that actually that one person that I had dated in that coming out story. And so I was dealing with a lot of grief at the time. And so for the first two plus years, I was definitely in the fog. I was definitely just trying to survive. Like I can't give you any advice for that time other than I was alive.

And functioning slightly, but I ended up going to grief counseling actually, because in my town, therapists are in short supply and I could only get into group counseling, and so I decided to do a writing grief group counseling session, and in my intake session I learned that my therapist was also adopted and that she was also conceived via rape.

Haley Radke: Come on.

Mary O'Rourke: Yeah, just like, serendipitously out of the blue. Had no, like I went to her grief counseling. Like she's also experienced a lot of grief, which is what motivates her to focus in the areas of grief and adoption and she does some other things as well. Those are two of her primary focuses.

Haley Radke: So you went to a group session that's supposed to be focused on grief and your therapist just happens to be a fellow adoptee who was also conceived in rape. Wow. Yeah. That's serendipitous.

Mary O'Rourke: Yep. Yeah. So she had been invaluable in my experience and in like my coming out of the fog journey, like she's what catapulted that. If you had talked to me last summer about adoption, even I would've said, oh, you know no big deal. It had no effect on me. I'm grappling with this story, but I'm not grappling with relinquishment and adoption and the fact that has on me at all, like that's no big deal.

Not that I was really processing or coping with the conception story very much as well. Like I wasn't really doing anything for that either. So she was helpful on both fronts and she was also helpful on like just the general grief counseling. Haley Radke: In the group was anyone else adopted? Did that come up as a topic of discussion or was that more just your conversations with her?

Mary O'Rourke: Yeah, so I ended up going to her one-on-one. She was able to get me in after the fact. But the grief counseling was interesting because everyone else in the group had also lost a parent, but they had that rosy angelic narrative around the person that they had lost. Like they were speaking of their parents as if they were martyrs and I think to a point that's helpful. But for me, I had, I loved my mother. And in some ways, I honored that relationship. But there were also really difficult things and I felt like I couldn't deal with that in that group because everyone else had a very idyllic parental situation for the person that they had lost.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Wow. That is, I don't know. Like I, I am, I can't, six losses like that is, that's a big number. This is a huge upheaval of your life. All of these different things and six losses and what pushed you to find that group therapy class? Like what, what was just like, I have to go, I have to do something.

Mary O'Rourke: It probably was, the fifth person that I had lost, it was my cousin who I was very close to, and then my uncle died, just a few months after that. And I think I just had this moment of reflection of, you know, I am surviving, but it feels like I have a lot that's unprocessed right now, and I really should get myself into therapy.

Like it was just, it felt like the logical thing to do at the time. I'm very composed and calm in times of crisis and because this happened one after the other. It's almost been like, I've been in survival mode like this whole time, and then I had to take a step back and say, all right, you need to get out of survival mode and like really deal with everything that's been happening.

Haley Radke: All right. I appreciate you sharing that and I think it's so important for us to pay attention to when it's time, like it's time to go and it's not always the easiest thing to do. I appreciate you sharing that. Is there anything that I didn't ask you, Mary, that you really want to talk about before we do recommended resources?

Mary O'Rourke: So Ron has four sons, two through my biological Aunt Katie, so they're my cousin brothers which is gross and I met them. Jake, one of the brothers who's only two months younger than me. So basically the same age exactly because I was two months premature, ended up telling Ron about me. And so he got my phone number, he got my social media profiles, he got my name, my pictures.

He knew where I worked. And so there was this whole crazy time where I had to tell everyone, not everyone, I had to tell my manager and some coworkers at work what the situation was, which is not something I ever wanted to do. And we thought we might have to take him to court because he was actually able to get his records sealed and he doesn't show up on a sex offender registry list.

And we wanted to make sure that the restraining order that was placed and I was a baby, like still applied and we ended up being able to get the records like out of court and everything, which is good and I haven't heard from him since. But yeah, he like looked at my LinkedIn profile, you know how you can see who's viewed your LinkedIn profile?

Haley Radke: Yes.

Mary O'Rourke: So his name like, popped up in my LinkedIn profile which really freaked me out.

Haley Radke: Oh talk about a, like a, just a privacy violation. Like I'm just, I feel icky, just like hearing it and it's not my experience. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. There's a lot of complexity to your story. My goodness. Do you have any final thoughts for another adoptee who finds out this really, shocking information when they search and find out they were conceived in rape and what that kind of looks like. Do you have any advice for someone who gets that shock, that shocking news?

Mary O'Rourke: It's been helpful for me to, I think, trust myself. I think I personally can be easily bogged down in this story and pinpointing the influence that Ron might have had on me, or nature versus nurture. And so it's easy to lose yourself and sit in the anger, in the pain of the story, but to understand that, it's, you are more than what happened to you and that you're your own person and that you have to trust, and I don't know, love yourself.

I know that sounds corny, but it's a part of your identity, but it can't, you can't let it define you. Without taking into consideration everything else that you are.

Haley Radke: Wise, thank you. Okay, Mary, let's do our recommended resources, and why don't you go first. What did you wanna recommend to us today?

Mary O'Rourke: Sure. There is a photo series called Meeting Sheila, and it's actually by someone I went to high school with and we're not friends or anything, just, mutuals on social media and she is, obviously adopted and she's a professional photographer and she created this photo series of the first time that she met her birth mother.

And I think what's really special about it is that it shows candid moments and it also shows really poignant moments and it really exemplifies to me the reverence that we have when we meet our first, like our first parents, especially the same sex first parent where you're looking for yourself in them. There's this one picture where they're like comparing feet and you can tell that they're really similar which I think is really sweet so I would give it a look.

Haley Radke: These are really unique and just like a really intimate view of a reunion. I spent way too much time looking at these when you sent them to me because they're really moving. And I, I didn't, wasn't sure what to expect when I clicked on that link, and it's so worth it. So we, I will definitely put a link to that in the show notes. Beautiful series Meeting Sheila. Okay, I knew a little bit of what we were gonna be talking about today and so I thought I would recommend something that Liz Latty has posted on her website, and it's from a couple of years ago, but she was a part of an adoptee roundtable.

At the City University of New York, and it's a queer transnational adoption politics round table, and it is available on her website. If you go to Liz-latty.com and just click on watch or listen, you can view this whole presentation in its entirety. And so you hear from multiple adoptee voices from different perspectives, and it is really powerful and I learned a lot from it.

If you're interested in activism. If you knew exactly what Mary meant when she said intersectionality, this really brings those things together. And so I would highly recommend that you give that a watch when you have a couple hours, some quiet Saturday. Yeah, Liz is great. You gotta be following her and she's a part of this round table. And of course you would recognize some of the other adoptive voices on this. Mary, where can we connect with you online?

Mary O'Rourke: You can connect with me on Instagram. And I, as I've warned Hailey, it's a funny username. It is, Homo underscore mojo. So, h o m o underscore m o j o.

Haley Radke: Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us, even the really challenging parts and I think it'll be really helpful for a lot of our listeners. So thank you. I really appreciate it.

Mary O'Rourke: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Haley Radke: I am so grateful for everyone who shares their story on the podcast, and especially when it is such a personal, challenging. Oh my goodness. What do you even say about some of the things that Mary has had to process? If this brought up some challenging things for you today, can I just encourage you to find some support, give a friend a call, or you can Google crisis hotline in your area.

I know I have people listening all around the world, so I don't wanna give out a phone number that doesn't work where you are. But if you Google Crisis Support line, you can always find someone to jump on the phone with you. And I am just blown away by the community that we've built here where adoptees can come and share in a safe space and support each other via a podcast.

Who knew that would happen? So Mary is actually one of my monthly supporters and I'm so grateful for her ongoing support. When we ended our call I thanked her and I told her truly, and I mean this without people like Mary signing up for monthly support of the podcast, I wouldn't be able to do it and so I'm so grateful. If you want to join Mary and about a hundred and 120 ish other monthly supporters. If you go to adopteeson.com/partner, there's details there of the bonuses you get when you are a monthly partner, including did you know there was a whole other. Weekly podcasts that I do with some rotating co-hosts.

It's called Adoptees Off Script. And if you are subscribed to this podcast, you would've heard a few of those. I aired them in September 2019 on the main feed, and so I hope that you enjoyed those. One other way you can support the podcast is by telling just one other person about it. Do you know another adopted person?

Pick a favorite episode and ask them to listen to it and let them know what you think, let you know what they think. Let them, it's very late when I'm recording this. I'm sorry. Word of mouth is how most people find out about a podcast, so I thank you so much when you share the show. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

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