253 Dr. Sam and Sandria
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/253
Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I am thrilled to bring you two fellow podcasters today. Dr. Samantha Coleman and washington are our guests from Black to the Beginning. They share their stories of being friends who just coincidentally found out a few years apart in adulthood that they also were both adopted.
We talk about the lack of resources for same race, black adoptees, and how Dr. Sam and Sandria are working to build the community and supports they wish they had when they first found out they were adopted. Before we get started today, I wanted to invite you to help support our transcription project.
If you go to adopteeson.com/donate, you can see how much we've raised towards our goal of 20,000 to cover the cost of transcribing the entire back catalog of Adoptees On which will help support more adoptees around the world by being more accessible. We would love your support for that project.
Adopteeson.com/donate. We wrap up today's show with some recommended resources for you, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopt eon.com. Let's listen in.
I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees on, Dr. Samantha Coleman. Hello, Dr. Sam.
Dr. Sam: Hey, how are you, Haley?
Haley Radke: I'm great. And also with us, welcome Sandria Washington. Hi Sandria.
Sandria: Hey Haley, how are you?
Haley Radke: I'm great. I'm so glad to finally be able to get the chance to speak with both of you. You're doing really amazing things for the adoptee community and so I'd love it if you would share a little of your stories with us. Dr. Sam, do you wanna start out.
Dr. Sam: Absolutely I can start, but Haley, I wanna say to you that I have a little bit of a girl crush on you because when we were first starting out, we were looking at various podcasts and it was like Adoptees On, like, yes, they are on point. So I just wanna let you know that you've been doing phenomenal work as well and have definitely been an inspiration. So wanna say that first?
Haley Radke: Thank you.
Dr. Sam: In terms of story, it's such a long one, so I'll try and bottom line it if you will. But I am a late discovery adoptee. I found out at the age of 26 that I was adopted. Or I'm gonna say the majority of my life really felt sort of out of place within my family. Could never really put my finger on why I felt that way. I made up a ton of reasons why I felt different. I was constantly looking into the face of my mother not being able to find any resemblance. So telling myself that I looked more like my father based on skin tone, personality, things of that nature.
So finding out at 26 and having it confirmed, if you will, that no, I do not belong to these people, was definitely a mind blowing experience. At that time, I really didn't know how to react. I think you get that type of news and you're just stuck for a second. But I remember vividly getting into my car, getting ready to drive home and like the flood of tears just came to the point where I could not drive.
So I called my husband, let him know this news. I'm like screaming at him in the phone. Oh my God, I'm adopted. And he's like, what? Just come home. And you know, that right there just started my journey into knowing that I was adopted. It wasn't until about four years later that within the state of Illinois, the adoption records were opened, or at least you could have access to your birth certificate.
So I went through that process of requesting my birth certificate. It took about two years for me to actually receive my birth certificate because there was a whole process of, you know, biological family could deny whether or not they wanted you to have access to that information and so on and so forth. So it took a quite a bit of time.
In the midst of that. I did have a daughter, so I got that information in 2012, but I had my daughter in 2011, so that was my first known blood relative. So after meeting her for the first time, that's when I got this information that started that, that process of true search and reunion for me.
I was really focused at that point on not necessarily finding people, because I still felt they're very much like strangers. So I was focused on finding my story, whatever it was, I didn't care how terrible it might have been, or even if it was just something that was, you know, lighter on the lighter side, if you will.
But I didn't care. I just wanted what the story was. So I spent not too long, it couldn't have been any more than 24 hours that I found, you know, precisely where my family was. I went about the business of contacting individuals, so I did all of the calling, the letter writing. I finally had an aunt who was willing, if you will, to give me a little bit of insight about my family.
And then she quickly swore me to a bit of secrecy as well, not to make contact with additional family members. And so I held that secret, you know, for a while until 2016. And in 2016, my mother's sister passed away at a family reunion, and I think that was an awakening for me, where it was like, oh, this is my quote unquote adoptive family.
I was very close to this aunt. This aunt has passed at the family reunion, and it really brought for me like, oh, this mortality thing is real. I don't have the time. Or we think that we have the time to continue to search or continue to do whatever it is that we want to do in life. And I'm like, I don't have the time to continue not knowing my biological family, not knowing my story.
So reached out to a sibling at that point in time and that opened up the gates to me being able to meet my biological parents. As well as my other siblings. So in 2016, decided that I was going to tell my friend group. So as I stated earlier, I only told my husband so nobody else knew at that point.
So between 2006, 2016, you're talking about a decade of me holding this and trying to deal with it myself. In 2016, I began to tell my close circle of friends, Sandria being one of those individuals in that friend's circle. And I remember, I wanna say it was , goodness was October, 2016.
Sandria: I think it was October, I think it was October.
Dr. Sam: October, 2016 is when I told Sandria we were on our way to an award ceremony. She was getting ready to be honored and I dropped it on her and I'm always in here because I think that's the segue into how Sandria comes into this mix. But that's the cliff notes version, of doctor Sam's story.
Sandria: Yeah. Woo.
Haley Radke: In your adoptive mother is the one that did tell you that you were adopted? Yes.
Dr. Sam: Yes.
Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Woo, Sandria.
Sandria: That is a story. Oh my goodness. I can still remember the day that Dr. Sam told me her story being in the car. And it's so crazy thinking about it in hindsight because, you know, she literally dropped this information on me and at the time I just didn't, I don't know, I didn't feel the weight of it and, you know, everything that she just shared with you, it just didn't hit me the same way.
Of course, that was 2016. I would not find out that I was adopted until two years later. So prior to 2018, life was pretty regular. Born and raised in Chicago. We're both Chicago girls. Grew up with my mom and my dad for the first six years of my life. And then they separated. And then an older brother, I have an older brother who's 10 years older. So for most of my life it was me, my mom, my older brother because he was so old, I pretty much was raised like an only child because he did not hang with me. We did not kick it like that. So kind of felt like the only child. Similar to Dr. Sam. growing up with those feelings of just feeling different, I experienced a lot of sadness, just insecurity, a few different reasons.
I did not look like, let alone anybody in my family, just other people. I am extremely tall. So you guys listening, you know, you can't see that. But I am almost six feet tall. I've been tall since I was a baby. So did not look like my five two mother, or, you know, my brother and my father had different features, but people would always tell me growing up that I looked just like my mom.
And so just dealing with insecurities of body image, but a lot of the insecurity was emotional, just not being able to put my finger on it.
So fast forwarding through life 2017, a cousin of mine sends me a message via Instagram telling me that I'm adopted. This is about six years after my mother had passed. So by this point, both my mother and my father are deceased. Her message is the first time I'm hearing anything like this, and I didn't know what to do with it. I wasn't sure of her intention with the message because there was a little bit of family friction, and so I wasn't sure if she was just saying something to be hurtful or if it was indeed true.
So I kind of sat on it. I sat on it for about three months. And then finally in April of 2018, the day after Easter, I called one of my aunts and I asked her, you know, is it true? And she confirmed that it's true, I'm adopted. She didn't have a lot of details, and in the moment when she told me it was a sense of validation.
Like it just helped to fill in the blanks of a lot of the things that I was feeling just as an adult and even as a child. So it was just that moment of validation because before that, I just kind of felt like, I don't know, like I'm the crazy one. You know? It's like your gut and your instincts are always being questioned.
And so having her confirm that information was just very validating. And so after I got information from my aunt, I called my older brother. He confirmed it as well. He had a similar story that he didn't have a lot of details. And then after that, I went to dinner with a friend of mine, had some nice Jamaican food, some rum punch, and just tried to let it all settle.
And then the next day I woke up just extremely angry. I had a hard time believing that no one had any information after 38 years, that no one had any details. And so I was just very angry, but also very determined to get answers myself. And so that day I started my Google search. Step one, how do I get my original birth certificate?
Figured out how to do that. Sent off for it. It came back about two weeks later. I filled out the health questionnaire, sent that off, and about two weeks after that received a questionnaire back. They had found a birth relative and I had all of her health information. It was a woman in Pittsburgh. I didn't know the relationship of the woman at the time, but I just knew she was a biological relative and I kind of sat on it. I didn't know if I should contact her or not. I tried to Google her, tried to Facebook her, do all these things and could not find this woman. And I'm just like, who is this person with no digital footprint? Like, who are you? And so a few weeks after that, she ended up reaching out to me via Facebook.
We talked on the phone and then a week later I was in Pittsburgh meeting her. She's a younger sister, one year younger. We were both placed for adoption. She grew up primarily in Pittsburgh. And then when I met her, she shared that we have three older siblings. So I am one of five born to the same parents.
The rest of the family was still here in Chicago. I would later find out in 2019. Someone from my biological family reached out to me via Facebook, which social media is just a whole thing. People keep finding me on social media. But I had a uncle reach out. He had come across my information via ancestry. My ancestry.com.
He was not aware that someone had placed child for adoption. And long story short, he connected me with my birth mother. And in 2019, December of 2019, I met my birth mother, birth father, and two of my older sisters that still live here in Chicago all within the same week. So things were moving pretty rapidly from for me.
And, you know, in terms of just being open and vocal, once I found out that I was adopted, I immediately started telling people because I was just so taken aback. I couldn't believe it. Even now it's still a little bit hard to believe. And so I just started telling everybody. I immediately started posting on my social media and I invited a group of my girlfriends out to dinner so I could tell them.
And it was just really important to me that people know and kind of have that experience with me of being in shock because the same way that I felt shock, I think everybody else felt shocked too because this was new information for them. And that's kind of the, that's the short story.
Haley Radke: Wow. So were your parents still together, your biological parents?
Sandria: So, no, they actually did not end up staying together. And I think even at the time when I was conceived, they weren't really on the best of terms. It may have been kind of on again off again. So by the time myself and then a year later, my younger sister yeah, they weren't together and they actually have not spoken in over 30 years.
They are not in communication now at all.
Haley Radke: Wow. But they parented the first three.
Sandria: I mean, my, my birth mom did the parenting.
Haley Radke: Gotcha. Okay. And Dr. Sam, how about you? Because when you mentioned birth mother and birth, you kind of did it in one go, were they together?
Dr. Sam: Yeah, so my birth parents, they were teenage parents. They split for a little bit, not too long. Came back together. And then they had two additional daughters, two of which they raised. So as far as I'm concerned, they've been together at least since my birth mother was 15.
Haley Radke: Wow.
Dr. Sam: So they've been together a long time. Yeah. And I would not have known that without the aunt sharing that information with me. And it's always interesting, and we've heard people say this as well, that when you're thinking about the birth parent, you're automatically thinking about the mother. And so I remember I was asking all these questions about my mother and my aunt was like, well, your parents are still together. And I'm like, whoa, really? In what universe like does that happen? Because again, you know, I'm thinking you all were teenagers and the fact that you're still together was crazy to me.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Well, I mean, both of your stories are unusual in that I feel like late discovery adoptees is a little more of an unusual story. Then your friends and connected and you know, so Sandria, you have this resource in Dr. Sam. What were your first conversations like together when you were like newly unpacking this?
Sandria: I'm trying to remember, cuz I know I reached out, but. It doesn't stand out. But I do remember that she was one of the first people because it was just like, it immediately brought back 2016, because I think in between those two years we hadn't really talked about her story a lot. Like it just wasn't something that, you know, just came up in regular conversation.
You know, we would just do our regular girlfriend thing, but once my story came up, it's like, oh, snap. Like I know somebody who has lived this.
Dr. Sam: And it's. Interesting too, when I think about our conversations, because we've recently, Haley, been talking about this, like what were, you know, our conversations, what support like would I have been looking for?
Right?
Sandria: Yeah.
Dr. Sam: And I was sharing with Sandria, and I think where we differ a little bit too is that I was not as open about it. And I likened that to a couple of different reasons. So by nature I'm private, but so is Sandria, but I, definitely a private person. And then also too, which I know a lot of adoptees struggle with, is that my adoptive parents were still around.
And so for me it was about still being respectful of that relationship with them. Not telling too much of their business. Like it was one of those things. And I've often heard adoptees say like, they don't even start searching reunion until parents are, you know, deceased. I think for me it was just like also being very conscious of that relationship.
And then even when I did start, like I said earlier, being even told by biological family, let's keep this quiet, right? So almost like how do I respect everyone's feelings here until I finally just hit that boiling point, like, this is about me at this point. I can't continue to cut myself off and be silent.
Haley Radke: Well, I really appreciate the platform that you both decided to start. And I remember one adoptee interview I did with a black adoptee. I mean, so many of them are transracial families and I remember at some point, you know, she reveals she's the same race adoptee. And I was like, oh, like, it just like, like I had that same like, oh, I didn't even think of that.
Which is, you know, stupid. Of course there are same race adoptees in the black adoption community, but when you guys were looking for resources and support and things online what'd you find Sandria ?
Sandria: So there was nothing. There was nothing there. And it's crazy because I know, I'm like, okay, me and Samantha are not the only two black adoptees raised in black families.
Like that's just not possible. And I remember 2018, April of 2018 started like just, you know, putting in hashtags and put in the hashtag black and adopted and it came up with two hits and neither of them had black people. And I just went down this rabbit hole and you would see a lot of things about like black animals and dogs and just, you know, just crazy stuff.
But it just wasn't associated with black adopted people. And so as we, you know, got into doing this work, we formed black to beginning in 2019 and. It was like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I would try to find, you know, the online support groups in different communities and most of them catered to transracial adoptees.
So even if you found a space where there were other black adoptees, they had a different experience. And so just trying to find a space for same race, it didn't exist at that time. So once we went public with black to the beginning I think we came on Instagram in May of 2019. That was one of the first things, like it just wasn't a thing.
And of course, now, you know, in 2023 it looks a lot different. There are groups that you know, either speak specifically to black adoptees, whether same race or transracial, but there's also some same race black adoptee groups as well. But in 2019, that didn't exist. And so for us, that was a huge problem and that's what kind of forced our hand in like, okay, we don't know what we wanna do.
We're not exactly sure what Black to the Beginning is going to be, but we know that it needs to be something because there are no spaces no stories being told about same race, black adoption. So whether you are a black adoptive parent or you're the adoptee, or if you are in some type of kinship situation, like those conversations were not happening on a large level.
And so we knew we wanted to do something to bring that to the forefront.
Haley Radke: And Dr. Sam, so you trained as a therapist, so you've got that expertise in your background as well. And I went to your presentation both of you when you presented at the California Adoption Conference and you were talking about black adoption in pop culture.
And it was great. Like it was like 10 outta 10. If you can see that, go back and see.
Dr. Sam: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming.
Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, it's so fun. Got to vote. It was great.
But I'm curious if you can talk us through a little bit about this myth that black people don't adopt. And from my understanding is that there are lots of informal adoptions and in black families and it's just not. You know, like labeled with the word adoption. And when I was trying to research like you know, baby scoop era and stuff, I'm like, are there, were there black birth mothers forced to give away their babies?
And I understand that a lot of the maternity homes were segregated and there were some for black mothers, but they were fewer and that a lot of them did keep their babies. So can you talk a little bit about that, maybe some of the history and what you see as maybe why some black people don't know they're adopted?
Dr. Sam: Yeah. So that is, so steeped in a lot of different things that black people have experienced from a historical perspective. So I think first and foremost, like realizing that black people do adopt formally. So going through private agencies and adopting children because that is what they want to do, either because they want to add to their existing family.
So sometimes there is again, this notion that black people are adopting to because they may have infertility issues. Not necessarily. We've come across families who actually had strong relationships with their church. We know that the black church was actually encouraging black families to adopt, and so black families were actually saying, okay, well we already have biological children.
We want to add to our families in that way. On the flip side, you do also have black families that did experience infertility, and they did see it as a viable option. We do also know that from a socioeconomic perspective, those families that were a little bit higher up socioeconomically were able to engage in more of the formal adoption you know, decision.
But I think what has been experienced in black families from the test of, or through throughout the time, even going back to our historical roots in Africa, like we are communal people. We believe in raising the children within our community. We talk about it taking a village. And so one that's a part of who we are as a people, period.
So therefore, if something happened to a child or what have you, other people would come to that aid in order to take care of the child. Right? So even with Sandria and myself, right, like we're girlfriends, but my daughter considers her an aunt. She does not consider Sandria Mommy's friend, right? So if something were to, you know, happen to me and I was like, Sandria, can you know, take care of my daughter?
Well then that's that fictive kin piece that comes into play. So I even remember, like as a child, there was always this notion of play mamas, play cousins, this whole thing. Like that's just a part of like black culture and what we, you know, have done. But then, Going into like more of the informal processes, we have to be able to really understand like the systems that have been in place that have really done some damage in regards to keeping families intact.
And I can go on all day, you know about that. If we think about foster care, if we think about access to, you know, good jobs and good homes and things of that nature, and how black families have been split up because it has been deemed that they do not have the appropriate resources to take care of children.
And so because of that relationship with various systems that are in place, black families then say, we're not gonna even go in that direction. What do we need to do to protect, you know, what we have going on here? And so therefore, if my daughter can't take care of her child, or my son can't take care of his child, we will bring that child to the family.
We're not gonna even bother going through, you know, the legalities of it, because at the end of the day, you're our blood and that's it. And that's a great notion, right? That, you know, the family stays together. But what we have realized is that it is still an adoption. And so therefore, if I am that child and I'm seeing my mother or father walk around in my midst, but I know that I'm being cared for by my grandmother and grandfather, I have questions, right?
So I still want to know like, what is the issue here? If this person is really a cousin, but they're being brought up in my home as a sibling, right? I may be okay with the fact that my cousin is my sibling, but that doesn't mean they're okay with it because it's like, where are my parents? Why aren't they able to, you know, be with me as you know, mother and father or what have you?
Or a lot of times we may see like differences that occur. And I think what's also different between being formally adopted and being adopted into the biological home is that when you're adopted, you don't know, right? So you don't know what it is that you might be missing. Not yet, at least, right? But if I'm walking around and I'm looking at all of these different people all the time, and it's like, I still don't know the story, still no one is willing to, you know, have conversations, you know, with me about it.
Sandria: So I think with the informal adoption piece we've done it. We will continue, you know, to do it. And I think we're just at a point now that in order for black people, especially those adoptees that grow up, right, like we need to be at a place of emotional and mental wellbeing. And that begins with families acknowledging that even though we are blood, this is still an adoption and we need to be able to attend to whatever it is that might come up for you around identity, around loss or what have you. Because it's just as valid.
I think in terms of our work, because we understand that word adoption or adopted can be triggering. Like it, it does still come with some shame and, you know, people use it as a joke, like it's not. Nobody necessarily wants to be adopted or thought of as adopted. So when you talk about these informal adoptions and kinship relationships, it's probably more common than a lot of people realize.
But people aren't self-identifying as an adoptee, even though they may have grown up in a situation where they're not being raised with their biological parents, they don't self-identify that way. And so with our work we're trying to find or trying to be that bridge. So how do we get black people to have an awareness around this conversation and actually see the similarities between someone like myself or someone like Dr. Sam and somebody who was raised with their grandparent. You know, like there's similarities there.
And so I think, you know, through the work, through the podcast, different stories that we've been able to share, trying to unearth those types of stories, that way you can bring it to the forefront and maybe even give people some language or some type of maybe confidence to say like, oh this was my experience.
You know, like, I kind of am, I am adopted. We actually had one guest who, you know it was almost like she had a light bulb moment during our conversation because it's like, you know what? I am adopted. It wasn't formally, you know, there isn't any legal paperwork, but everything that I'm experiencing is very much me being adopted.
There just isn't any legal paperwork tied to it. So I think just trying to give people that awareness and an understanding that, there shouldn't be stigma, shame, because as Dr. Sam mentioned, we've been doing this, we've been taking care of other people's children within the black culture, but beyond the black culture we take care of others.
And so I think some of that stigma and shame, it's almost like once adoption became something that could be commodified and, you know, all these different rules and just systems around it, it's like, oh. Maybe this isn't something we want to talk about so publicly or, you know, it's it's got that scent of shame on it when in actuality this is something that, that we've always done and we did it without shame. So it's, how do we get back to that?
Haley Radke: Thank you. So I have a feeling we have some different perspectives on adoption here. I hear you describing those things and I think, oh my gosh, it's family preservation, right?
Keeping the unit intact and even if we're not talking about it, we should be talking about it. I hopefully know that is my biological mother. And even though she's not acting in my life as the mother figure at this time, so there's still some kind of knowledge. I'm like, that's better than stranger adoption, I hope, like. Right.
So I'm curious through the years and all the different conversations you've had with, you speak with all members of the adoption constellation and using constellation in that it's not just biological mothers and fathers or adoptive mothers and fathers or us. It's all the extended family as well.
What are some of the perspective shifts that you have had over these years about your attitude towards adoption? You know, some of us call it like coming out of the fog or, you know, finding this adoptee consciousness and different touchpoints in that. Have you had a perspective shift, Dr. Sam, a perspective shift?
Dr. Sam: That's a good question. I think the perspective that I have held and hold in a lot of different areas of my life is that to each his own. And I think we have our perspectives based on our life experiences, based on various worldviews that have been shaped by a number of different things. So I remember when we were starting this work and looking at, you know, a lot of different resources and posts that were out there.
So, for me, for a point in time, it almost felt a bit scary where it was like, yikes, there's so many people that think that adoption is, you know, this super terrible thing, that it is something that should be abolished. That adoptive parents really don't have any right to say anything or what have you.
I just don't hold that perspective at all. The reason being is because of my background, I've seen a lot of nasty (expletive) like that is the best way that I can say it in terms of families and things that have, you know, been done. And I don't think that sort of behavior or treatment of children is going to end any time soon, unfortunately.
Therefore, I do believe that if there is a family that can take care of a child, that opportunity should be afforded to that child. I don't think it's just like an opportunity for a parent to that child. And I also say that too, because I have seen children go through group homes. So when people are like, oh, well no adoption, well then what would you like to see happen?
Do you want to see the children like not have any family to go through group homes to essentially be floating around in the wind and depending on the system to take care of them, but then when they get older and then they have to depend on the system, you wanna like moan and complain about that too?
I just don't stand with that. Right. So I, for me, I want everyone to take their experience for how they want to take their experience and they can move forward in whatever perspective works for them. So I think I'm just I'm at a place that whatever works for you is what works for you. I haven't seen too many shifts though, right?
In terms of my perspective, I think at one point there, it was kind of like me going back and forth around this whole late discovery adoptee thing and whether or not I would have wanted to have known earlier. I know Sandria and I differ, you know, on this, right? And that's okay. And I still maintain, I don't know whether or not I would have wanted to have known earlier.
I can't say that because that was not my experience. What I do know is by listening to some of these stories in this quote unquote, what I think is fake openness, that just simply telling somebody that they're adopted and not having any further conversation with them is just as bad if not even more traumatizing than not saying anything at all.
That's my judgment. Right? So for me, I can't say right, but I did, I wavered a bit. Like should I have wanted to know earlier? Yeah, I don't know. Like the verdict is still out. I can't speak to that. But that's the only perspective that I probably did a little bit of wavering, but ultimately to each his own, because we each have a unique story.
That is one thing that I've learned. We're all in this community together, but each story is different. We just have a few common threads.
Haley Radke: Thank you. I was so glad. I'm so glad you mentioned that, cuz that is literally a note I had to take down to be like, oh, that's an interesting perspective. I've never heard anybody say that, so thanks for addressing that without me even asking.
How about you Sandria?
Sandria: So for me, I think the first thing I had to get a perspective because adoption wasn't anything on my radar. It was not a part of everyday conversation. I didn't think about it. And so once I found out that I was adopted, I think that immediately. Just, I don't think I was ever in the fog, like I'm immediately out the fog because I just feel like we need to talk about it.
I felt a level of disrespect, if that makes any sense. Like I just felt like the system as I'm seeing it, you know, as I'm starting to research online and I'm not seeing any groups for same race, I'm just like this can't happen. Like, this is not gonna sit with me. And so, you know, I'm gonna talk about it, I'm gonna share my story regardless of what family thinks or, you know, whomever.
I think the perspective, just kind of in broad terms, I do think in its layered, I, it's very nuanced because I think about. If I just look at my situation, my birth parents, specifically, my birth mother, she had already had three children prior to me. She was 19, about to be 20 when I was born. She had my oldest sister at 14.
So I'm just imagining myself as a young woman, a young mother already with three children, and now here comes a fourth child and then a year later, a fifth. And so I'm just thinking about, and I don't know for certain, you know what her true feelings were, you know, maybe she really did want to keep all of her children.
Maybe if she had more support, more resources, you know, maybe that could have been a more viable option for her. But I do recognize that in some situations, some people are not ready to be parents or they don't have a desire to parent. And so what happens to those children? You know, like, is it better to preserve a family and be raised with parents who did not want you who may emotionally abuse you, if not physically abuse you?
Like what? What happens in that situation. And so I think unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you think of it, there will be a need for others to raise the children of other people. But I think going back to Samantha's point, you know, it's like to each their own, there's that choice. But I do think there could be something damaging, like what is family preservation at what cost?
And so that's why I say it's nuanced and it's layered. You know, if you can give people the resources than everything that you need, then you probably can keep fam more families together. But sometimes that is not always the intended outcome or the outcome that people want. Maybe they just do not want to parent. And that's a reality.
There has to be some type of mechanism for that reality as well. I would say beyond that, another shift is just being open to the other stories that are different from my own. So even with our podcast, we're not just speaking to black adoptees who were raised in black families, we are speaking to transracial adoptees, we're speaking to birth mothers and you know, adoptive parents.
And so leaving space for people to share their experiences and their stories, even if their perspective might be a little bit different because sometimes it can be hard listening to an adoptive parent and maybe they might say something that feels a little bit triggering or a little bit like, oh my God, that's what you think.
But you know that is what they think at that moment, and that's how they feel, and that's their experience. And so I think just allowing myself to be open to all the different stories.
Haley Radke: Thank you both so much for that perspective. I know it's, you know, you've said things that listeners will be like, oh yeah, me too for that, or, oh, not for me, or this, you know, I know that there will be people on all sides of that.
I am so excited to share your podcast with folks. I think Black to the beginning as this concept that you have brought into the world is tremendous and the conversations that you've had on the black adoption podcasts are really tremendous. I've listened to several and, including an adoptive parent, and hearing their perspective was really helpful to me.
I just appreciate how people show up for each other in those conversations. Like, I really feel like your guests are showing up for you and really engaging in very deep conversations much like we've had today. And I just think the richness of that is just adding to the resources for our community. So, you know, again I started the show with this, but thank you so much for bringing these conversations and your network to the adoptee community, and I really am so, so thrilled that this is available for folks.
I think, I don't know, there's just something about the vulnerability that bringing ourselves to these conversations in this place of a learner is so impactful. So thank you. I think everyone will get something really valuable if they start listening to your show.
Is there like one or two in particular you wanna point people to that you think adoptees on listeners would really be like, oh yeah, we'll connect with this for sure. Oh, that's putting you on the spot. I know your podcast shows, this is like, every episode is my baby. I can't which one, which pick a favorite. Pick a favorite. Right.
Dr. Sam: I always remember them by names. Not necessarily numbers.
Haley Radke: All right. You see the name? We'll put in the show notes. No problem. Yeah.
Dr. Sam: So Chana Timms, so that was...
Sandria: season one.
Dr. Sam: It was a season one. I believe so. She's a biological mother. Christopher LeMark that was season two or season one.
Sandria: I think he was season one as well.
Dr. Sam: Was he season one as well?
Sandria: Season one was on fire season.
Dr. Sam: Like, it seriously is gonna make me like look through because all of the and this is like for anyone that's been on our show that might be listening to this, it has no bearing on, you know, the intensity of our conversations with them.
I'm just thinking about the ones that spurred me into action. And based on what you just said, Haley, I remember Chana Tim's episode spurred me to into action because I had been estranged for a bit from my biological mother and my siblings. That particular episode moved me to action. So the, of course the rest of our guests have been phenomenal. And to your point, the vulnerability that they give, you know, to us is a true gift. So I'm just thinking about that because of my own life circumstance. But ,there's been you can't lose by listening to any of them, right?
Haley Radke: That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's amazing. Okay, Sandria, what do you wanna recommend to us today?
Sandria: Yeah, and no, both of those are really good ones. Chana and Christopher LeMark I would put in I think this one is also season one Dr. Phoenix.
Dr. Sam: Yes, Dr. Phoenix.
Sandria: She is another late discovery adoptee. Hers was kinship, so she found out that her favorite aunt was actually her biological mother. But that episode really stands out because at a point as she's telling her story, we just kind of had to stop and hold space because she was crying.
And it's one of those things, you know, they tell you in radio like, no dead air don't have dead air. But we just had to let the dead air be. And you know, we didn't edit it out because that's what happens, you know, people are being so vulnerable and transparent and for a lot of people this coming to the podcast is their first time really telling their story.
So this was a moment, you know, I don't think she had ever really told it as comprehensively. And so as she's telling it to us, she's telling it to herself. And it just really moved her and just caused her to think about some things. And so for me, that was really powerful because it's a reminder we always say, you know, we're living in real time with this.
Like I've never, I've only been adopted for five years now. So it's like this is all in real time. And so even for her, she's known about her adoption for several decades now. And even after several decades, it still has an impact. It's still, her story is still touching her in different ways. And so that was powerful to me.
Haley Radke: It's a sacred space, right? It's like coming into a holy space.
Sandria: And then you're bringing, you know, whoever you know, publicly is listening into that space. So we do not take it for granted at all. We are truly honored and humbled. And then I would just say, kind of on a fun note this might have been season three? Darius Colquitt very fun episode.
He, once you listen to the first five minutes, you already see that this episode is about to be a party. But he's another L D A, but just the energy that he was able to bring to his story and then you see how he's able to, you know, take this story and transmuted into his art. He is a creative artist in theater.
And so you just get all of that. And so I think one of the things we try to do is, you know, yes, some of our stories are very sad or angry or whatever it is, but we try to point out like, you know, that's not the totality of our stories. Like how do we progress? How are we healing? What are we doing to get to the other side?
So even if we're not to the other side, it's important that guests are able to share what they're doing to get to the other side and just give some hope. And so I really enjoyed his episode. He's a good time. So yeah, if you can listen to that episode, that's another great one to start with.
Haley Radke: Okay. Thank you so much. We will absolutely send people to those episodes. What do you want to recommend to us for your recommended resource, Sandria?
Sandria: Yes. So before there was a Black Adoption podcast, one of the things that really helped me I came across this documentary called Little White Lie. It is by Lacey Schwartz. She is not an adoptee, but her story is so similar to that of a Late Discovery Adoptee.
It's a P B S documentary. I think you might still be able to find it on Prime, but it is just a powerful watch. So even if you are not a part of this adoption constellation, but you know about family drama and messiness, this documentary has all the layers of that. Highly recommended.
Haley Radke: I watched it yesterday on Prime because I was going through your presentation again.
Sandria: Wow. Yes.
Haley Radke: And I was like, oh yeah, that's another thing I hadn't seen. Yeah. Racial reclamation is a big piece of it for yeah. Wonderful. Okay. Dr. Sam, I'm gonna put you on the spot. Do you have something?
Dr. Sam: I do have some recommendations, but it actually goes in a different direction. So part of what Sandria tapped into is that yes, we can have sad, happy, embarrassing, frustrating, angry stories, you know, all of those emotions that come into play. But one thing that we know as adoptees that we're continuously searching for self, and that will be a never ending journey.
And so one thing that is important for us, you know, at Black to the Beginning again, is to not stsay where you're at, but to be in the driver's seat of where it is that you're looking to go. For me, just even from a professional standpoint on what I do on a regular basis in terms of leadership development, I work very heavily with assessment data. And so even when I speak with my clients, I tell them often that assessments are like horoscopes. Some of them are extremely spot on, some of them are a little bit off, but in between all of it is the truth.
And you know, for someone that is seeking more information about themselves or trying to get in touch with behavioral tendencies and what they need to dial up or dial down on in order to achieve certain results in their life, it's even more crucial for adoptees.
So I recommend for adoptees to get into some other things, right?
Like just. Thinking about how you're gonna lead in your own life. So search for what's called a free DiSC assessment. That's d I S C. And that will give you some insight into your behavioral tendencies. And I think being able to, one, understand who you are, gives you an opportunity to look at other people that are around you and how to engage with them as well.
And in the future, stay tuned because we will be talking to you all or offering you all opportunities for coaching around your personality, your behavior from an adoptee perspective. So check it out. Free DiSC assessment.
Haley Radke: Oh my goodness.
Sandria: I love a good assessment.
Haley Radke: Yes. I love that. I love how it's evident in your work that you don't want people to stay stuck and listen, I'm with you. With you a hundred percent. Okay. Where can we connect with you online? Where can we listen to your podcast? Give us your socials, Sandria.
Sandria: So if you go to BlacktotheBeginning.com you can be linked to everything. You can find the podcast, you can find our Instagram, our Twitter. It's all there if you go to the website.
Haley Radke: Wonderful. And I'm assuming if people follow there, we'll find out more about what Dr. Sam said. So, yep. Wonderful. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. And again, thank you for your work on behalf of fellow adoptees, honor to serve alongside of you.
Sandria: Thank you.
Dr. Sam: Thank you, Haley.
Haley Radke: I feel so. So thankful for all of the adopted people who are stepping out and creating their own adoptee shows, podcasts, blogs, Instagram accounts critiquing adoption, YouTube channels, books, memoirs or otherwise. I mean, there are so many adoptees, building, creating, writing the things that we needed when we were going through it.
And so I really appreciate Dr. Sam and Sandria doing that for our community. And I know there's so many of my guests are doing that as well, and so many of you are doing that. So thank you.
Hopefully we will have, you know, so many things available when adoptees are ready to dig into their adoption stuff, we'll be here waiting for them, right? So, thank you. I think our community is just growing in really amazing ways and I try my best to highlight as many folks that are doing a wonderful work for you as possible. So if you know of someone that you wanna make sure that I interview and Adoptees On to hopefully boost their platform and get more people listening or reading or whatever it is you know, feel free to let me know.
I'm always looking for new folks that to share with all of you. So last thing, I just wanted to let you know that this show is literally listener supported. I couldn't do it without you. And I have all these great thank yous for Patreon supporters, including a weekly podcast called Adoptees Off Script.
A book club for adoptees only, who are only reading adoptee authored work. We have off-script parties. We have some new things coming up that I can't tell you about yet, but just really exciting resources for you. If you wanna support the show, make sure it keeps existing. Go to AdopteesOn.com/community to find out all the details.
We would love to have you over there. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.
