309 Megan Hunter, MBA

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/309

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to adoptees on the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. It is such an honor to bring you today's guest, Megan Hunter. Megan is known as the conflict influencer and is the co-founder of the High Conflict Institute. We get to know Megan's personal story today, including her reunion.

Megan shares about how she first connected with her birth mother about a gut wrenching experience with her biological father that resurfaced an adoptee wound, and she offers us advice in navigating new reunion relationships, including both the complex and the beautiful [00:01:00] sides. Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Megan Hunter. Hi, Megan.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Hello. Hi, Haley. Hi everyone. Thanks for having me.

Haley Radke: What an honor to talk to you. I'd love it if you would start the way we normally do. Would you share some of your story with us?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Adoptee story business. I'm usually doing business podcasts, so, or conflict podcasts. So that's what I'm used to talking about.

Haley Radke: I know we're going to the personal today. How about that?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Not the personal side. Alright, we can do that. I was adopted at the age of two months. [00:02:00] So my biological parents are, they were, you know, last year of high school, senior year, and the relationship didn't last, and I was born in September.

So what would've been their. I guess their freshman year of college. So they chose to place me for adoption and I guess I went to a foster home for a couple of months and I was told it was a wonderful one. And then I was adopted by some really wonderful people in Nebraska. So I grew up on a farm. And had two, I had an older sister who was my parent, my adoptive parent's, natural child, and then they'd lost two children before she was born.

Very tra you know, sadly with some heart problems. So they had her, she also had the heart problems, but she survived it. And at that point, I think they were like. This is too painful to try to have more children. You know, genetically, there's obviously something wrong, but they wanted more [00:03:00] kids, so they adopted a boy and then two years later adopted another boy, and then two years later adopted me.

So I'm the youngest of four and grew up my whole life knowing I was adopted, which I'm so grateful for because I know a few people who didn't know for a long time, and that's just been a painful journey for them, or painful new piece of news too, to absorb and assimilate. So yeah, I was grateful for that.

And I'm sure there'll be lots of, lots of questions about the whole, all of it. But I guess the, the fast forward part is in my twenties, I was about 24 or 25 when I was flipping through television stations and I just, just flipping through, you know how you, so you're like on something for two seconds before you flip to the next thing.

At least back in the old days. I don't even think we do that anymore.

Haley Radke: No. You just like, look up what you wanna watch and there it is. Right.

Megan Hunter, MBA: I just realized that. Yeah. Right.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: We used [00:04:00] to do that. I, I mean, like I grew up when we didn't even have remotes so ancient, but, so I'm flipping through. See, I, I lived in Nebraska, but we got Colorado news stations and networks and things, and there was a Colorado news, a TV sh, you know, news show on, and I just caught in those two seconds adoptees.

So I went back to that station and they had this story about Colorado had just opened their birth records to adoptees for six months. You had a window. And so I followed up, I'll followed through and I think I paid $125 or something very, very nominal for. They assigned me to a intermediary who had access then to whatever records were available, and she tracked down my birth grand maternal grandmother and that led her to my biological mom, birth mother.[00:05:00]

I told her, you know, like I didn't have any expectations of ever, ever meeting anyone, but I, I was interested in medical information. I mean, I was honest and authentic about that, but, so she did write me a letter back and gave me, you know, some medical information, but there were no names or any identifying information included, and I didn't expect it.

I didn't give her mine. And then about three months later, after a couple of letters, maybe the intermediary called and said, your birth mother would like to talk to you. So, I don't know, within a day or two we were on the phone and this thing I'd been, you know, thinking about for 25 years was suddenly happening.

I had this, this, the, the dream, the fantasy, you know, that we all create in our head about who they are and what they look like and all that. Well, I was born in the Vietnam War era. I knew my bio father had gone into the military, [00:06:00] so I, in my fantasy mind, he was dead. I just thought, you know, Vietnam. So that was my story.

Well, it turns out he was very much alive and still is. So, so I got to, I got to meet him first, and he didn't have any other children. I was it. And then I met my birth mother. Probably sometime in the next six months or so, and she had four kids that were born after me and three daughters and a son. So I've gotten to know all them and then her husband and you know, now it's been over 25 years. So I have some experience now.

Haley Radke: You do. You so do. And because you're an expert in conflict resolution, you have all these skills for sure. Now that would help I'm sure, in difficult reunion situations. How about when you were 25, 26, 27 and those difficult things come up? [00:07:00] Can you remember anything that was particularly challenging?

Megan Hunter, MBA: At the beginning, I was just in my twenties. I think I was just full of life and exuberant and it was like, oh, this is great, you know? So I just kind of accepted. I was very accepting of everyone and I wasn't cautious. At all. I just went full in like, oh, this is so exciting. And so there wasn't conflict in the beginning, I would say took about a decade for the skeletons to come outta the closet.

You know, it was kind of like we're all putting our, our best foot forward, you know, in our shiny faces. And as we all know, in every family there's some skeletons somewhere and some conflict. So when those things came up, I didn't necessarily know how to handle them. Well, and I, I wouldn't say I was in the conflict, but I just had funny feelings.

Haley Radke: Hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: So on my, my bio dad side there was, there was no conflict [00:08:00] me with anyone, but he and his siblings had tons of conflict, and so I could step back and watch this from afar and it's like, yeah, this is great. I don't have to be in it. Birth mother's side of the family, you know, they had their dynamics, their sibling histories and all of that, and again, I wasn't part of it.

So when they had big conflict, I was still this outsider. Now in my adoptive family, loads of conflict, high conflict. So I, I finally reached a point where I realized that when you come from an adoptive place and you know, all these families, plus I'd been married, had that family, got divorced, got remarried have family. You have a lot of family now, and I realized that with every family comes that some of those skeletons, some of that conflict history, you know, drama and it can be too much. I [00:09:00] felt overwhelmed because there was too much drama in many of the families, most of them. So I think as an adoptee, that was really challenging for me. Even though I could step back from some of it, it still affected me. So if you want me to focus on. A back breaker of a conflict. I can do that.

Haley Radke: Well, as you were talking, I was thinking like sometimes we are the skeletons in the closet when we come back and find, right?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And so

Megan Hunter, MBA: I was.

Haley Radke: Yes. Did your siblings know about you on your maternal side? No. So they have to just, mom has to share that secret.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yep. She'd never shared with anyone. Except her mother.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. That can be so difficult in relationship. Just that.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah. And she's a very private person and I'm a talker, you know, and I'm exuberant and she's very private and quiet. So that was, was difficult, but it was [00:10:00] so kind that she did share this information with her family and they accepted me completely open armed.

Haley Radke: Hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: And I have wonderful relationships with a couple of my sisters, and there's just, that's been just a highlight in my life.

Haley Radke: Oh, I'm so glad for you, Megan. That's wonderful. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you, you, you gotta share the doozy because, you know, we're all waiting to hear. You're like, Haley, you have to ask that. I will, I will.

Megan Hunter, MBA: A little, little teaser there. Yeah, and I, I, I'm willing to share this because I think as adoptees we do deal with something different than non- adoptees and I, I think it's at a cellular level. So on my birth father's side, like I said, there was a lot of conflict in that family, and if they would get together for a gathering, it would last a day or two. And then like there's a blow up and then they're making booking tickets to go fly home immediately and that kind of thing. I would go [00:11:00] visit my paternal grandmother. And I realized I could handle about 12 hours before I felt exhausted and kind of overwhelmed and like needed to get outta there, right?

So you know I had probably known him 15 years or so, and my bio dad called me, he lived several states away, and he said, you know, for my mom's 80th birthday, I'm gonna fly to where she lives. Surprise her and tell her we're gonna hop in her car and we're gonna drive to see you. And stay with you for 10 days.

Exactly. That must have been the look on my face. I'm like, okay, God, I can do anything for 10 days. Right. I can be charitable, I can be generous. I have a big house. We can, I can make this work. I'll just do it. Right. So it, you know, we're, eh, first three days are okay. And then it just, things kind of started feeling weird and like they'd kind of disappear and wouldn't say [00:12:00] they were going anywhere and they'd be gone for hours and hours.

It was just, I don't know, just no communication. And I would start to get that feeling again, of just being like, run down and at the edge of falling apart, but I'm strong. I got this, I can do this. So we were going to have a we hosted in our home like a, a weekly like marriage Bible study for married couples on Monday nights.

So I told my bio dad and his mom about this and I said, look, you don't have to come. I'm not trying to proselytize, but it's something we do in our home. If you'd like to come, you're welcome. If not, no problem. She said, no thanks. He said, yeah, please come get me in my room. So I went and got him in his room.

When it was time we walked down the hall together. And right before we got to the living room, he said I gotta get something. I'll be right back. So I thought, well, I must need his glasses or something. I don't know. Never came back. Never did come back. So [00:13:00] afterwards, I sent my son down to the bedroom.

So what, you know, to find him. And he's like, he's not there. He's not in the backyard, he is not in the front yard. He's gone. He's just not there. Odd, right. We looked, we kind of waited, just wasn't there. So the next morning I just woke up at 5:30 in the morning, and which isn't normal. I usually, it's like 6:30 or seven.

And I immediately had this thought, they're gone. I woke up my husband and I said, honey, they're gone. What are you talking about? They're, they're gone. I know they're gone. No, they're supposed to be here another three or four days. They're gone. I got my robe. Walked down the hall, they were gone.

And I think as an adoptee that ripped the rug right out from under me. You know, there's probably a lot of, a lot of variables there, but you know, in birth family in all of this. But [00:14:00] I guess I didn't know what was gonna happen. So it wasn't necessarily like a big conflict, it was just they were gone. So my husband's said, let's, go to breakfast.

So we went to this restaurant and we sat on the patio for probably three or four hours. And I had, which from the outside probably looked like a nervous breakdown.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Or a psychotic break. I would just sob and weep from my core over this, probably abandonment.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Right. Even though I didn't even like this guy that much, I didn't like his mom that much. Why is it affecting me so deeply? I would just, I would weep from the, I mean, guttural, ugh. It was horrible. And then that, you know, I'd go for a while and then I'd start laughing hysterically. So like I said, crazy lady. But that was my reality that morning. And I think looking back, you know, it's been 15 years better ago now, and, and I realize that my belief is in some of [00:15:00] us, based on our temperament, our DNA, our life experiences and all of that, our biological family, our resilience, you can have that rug ripped from under you and not, not real, just you have no idea its coming. You don't know it's there that you can get hurt deeply, even by people you don't feel like you're even that close to.

So that's my big conflict story. Not that I, I mean, it, it just ended with me setting limits when, when they called that night because word got around quickly to a cousin who called an aunt, who called him on the road. So he called me and I was of course upset and I, I just said, look, I never wanna see your mother again, and I'll let you know when I'm ready to talk to you. And I must have sounded pretty fierce what he heard. It was, I'll never wanna talk to either of you again.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Right. So we have healed things since then, but I'm pretty cautious. Then fast forward [00:16:00] to about six years, five years ago, my little grandson's first birthday party. Now I've let these folks back in my life again.

He and his wife, they wanna come out for my first grandchild's first birthday. Great. Come on out and we just finished the dinner and you know, I'm an excited Nana, I love my little grandbaby and its first birthday and oh, the cake and the good to the presents and all that. So we'd finish the dinner, we're sitting at the table and just waiting to, you know, get the table cleared and we're gonna have the cake and presents and things.

And he looked at me, he said, I just wanted to let you know I went to our lawyer and took you out of our will.

Haley Radke: At the party, he said this to you?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Mm-hmm. Now, as an adoptee, I never had an expectation of being in the will in the first place.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: 25, 30 years ago, he, out of the [00:17:00] blue, told me he put me in his will. Okay, great. Thank you. So now the expectation's there. You don't even think about it again, you've forgotten about it until someone, the person who gave life to you tells you, lemme rip that rug out from under you again. So there we were again, and I was much stronger at by that point and had been in therapy. But I still think there's so much about being adopted that at least for me is at a cellular level.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: I don't know.

Haley Radke: How long did it take you from your setting the limit after that first disappearing act to engaging with him again?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Mm, it might've been over five years.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah. I was just, I was just, I've never had anything like that. Just, I just, I could feel it in my cells. That's all. That's the only [00:18:00] way I know how to, to, to describe it.

Haley Radke: Well in this behavior, I'm telling you, something inflammatory at a public celebratory occasion is like, this person just really wants a scene or something like that is so wild. What a choice.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, it's like just no really low social skills, I think. And you know, I, I don't think there was bad intent by it. It was just, you know, the explanation the next day was you know, your husband supports you and you have your own company and so you don't need anything from us. Well, that's true. However. The underlying part of this is the human part. Yeah. You know?

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: And maybe in a different setting, said in a different way. Like, hey we've had this conversation and here's what we decided to do. We just wanted to let you know. So that was my [00:19:00] experience. And after then, after that. Like he, the look on my face must not have looked great. He saw that, noticed it, blamed his wife for everything, and then took off out of the house.

Like I told you, conflict, they run. Well, they rode with us in our car, so we had to come back and the next day we dropped 'em at their condo and the next day they, they said, hey, we we're, we're not feeling well today, you know? And then they contacted me the following day. I had lunch with them, brought my daughter along who they hadn't seen yet, and I just kept it surface and pleasant. And when he went to the bathroom at the restaurant, his wife looked at me and said, are we okay now? And I said, no. What I've learned from this is you can have too much family.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Which probably wasn't the nicest thing to say, but it's the only thing I could think in that moment.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. That's so real though.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, it's a lot. It's a [00:20:00] lot to carry.

Haley Radke: So a lot of people, we, we even did a whole series on adoptee estrangement, and so a lot of people are choosing to go this route now. And I know with your expertise, like you help people navigate really challenging circumstances and especially with people who are high conflict, really difficult people.

And so do you have a, a line or, or things that you tell people about, like, listen, if you see this, we really gotta. Yes. Safer to break ties, or if these things are happening, I could help you work through that. Like, do you have something like that that you could share?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, we do. I mean, it's, we do work with a lot of people in really tricky situations, whether it's adoptee, I mean, it's. Infrequently adoption related, but it's, you know, high conflict, which is a, a kind of a pattern of an, an individual with a [00:21:00] pattern of doing a lot of blaming and having, you know, really extreme behaviors, unmanaged emotions, and very all or nothing in their thinking. And it's just kind of how they approach life kind of unconsciously, like an operating system so they can wreak havoc on their close relationships and even relationships at work, but especially in intimate relationships and parenting and families, siblings, all of that. So the people that come to us are usually often in times in despair. Like, I'm in a deep dark hole and I don't know what to do. I don't know how to get out.

Everything I do is a misstep. I'm wrong. I'm blamed, I'm scared, I'm frustrated. I'm exhausted by the chaos. So what we help people do is just understand, first of all what high conflict looks like and then they start to get this first like kind of brick in the foundation of, okay, I'm not crazy. And then it's kind of understanding what's happening with this other [00:22:00] person and accepting that this is who they are and I'm not gonna be able to change it.

Therefore I have to change how I approach it. So we do have, you know, communication skills we teach, which is, you know, using what we call EAR statements when they're escalating, complaining, blaming, give them something a little with a little empathy, attention, respect, little EAR. And it, it helps really connect with the reactive part of the brain and helps them kind of helps their brain get regulated more, gives them what they need before you have a conversation or get to what you need to, like, if you have to have a difficult conversation, you're gonna sprinkle a little EAR in it whenever the other person's upset, escalating, blaming, going all or nothing or any of that.

And then we have other little techniques. We have writing techniques and things too, but a big part of this is setting limits and with high conflict people, [00:23:00] you really have to have this balance of, of giving them empathy or respect. Some need respect more than empathy 'cause they'll manipulate you with your empathy.

And then a balance with setting limits, they don't stop themselves and so you kind of have to give the gift of setting limits and what that really means bottom line is I'm going to do what I need to do. Because if you think about it, we're typically doing what the other person wants us to do and we're afraid to assert what we want.

But setting limits, having boundaries is doing or saying what I'm going to do, I'm going to leave this room now if you don't stop talking to me in that way. And if they continue, I'm leaving the room now. So there's those, little, you know, things that happen in conversations, but then we go to the bigger picture of making decisions about that relationship.

And that's one that takes some time. And you know, in these [00:24:00] tricky reunion type situations, you're blending different cultures basically on an intimate, most intimate level. And sometimes gonna work great as you know. And other times it's going to be tricky and sometimes you're, oftentimes there's gonna be a, a pretty negative situation that you find yourself walking into.

So, you know, I like to say, remain cautious for a year at least. Tread lightly. Be observant. Look for the red flags. Don't make any promises. Don't get too close, too quickly. Stay as arms length as possible for the first year or so, and then you can make decisions from there. 'cause I don't know you today, but I will.

I will know you and I'm gonna know that you're okay. Healthy enough to be in a [00:25:00] relationship with or not, or somewhere in between. And that's how far or close I'm gonna have you.

Haley Radke: That's really good advice. So difficult to follow through in. Especially for

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yes ma'am,

Haley Radke: you're meeting your birth mother for the first time. Your fa like, it's the draw, the lure of like finally getting to know someone you dreamed about for and had all these stories about. It's so difficult.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah,

Haley Radke: and I really encourage people to have a, a competent therapist to walk. Them through this time to help press the brakes for us. 'cause we can't, it's, it's really difficult.

I was gonna say, we can't do it.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I mean, we could, but it's hard.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, it's hard. I like, listen, I'm old now. I'm a grandma, right. So I have a lot more experience and wisdom and missteps along.

Haley Radke: You sure look old

Megan Hunter, MBA: in my 20.

Haley Radke: Just for people who can't see you, like. [00:26:00]

Megan Hunter, MBA: Filters help, trying to stay looking young. But, and the good thing is my voice sounds young, which is nice. So the people that can't see me think I'm really young. But when I was in my twenties, when I met everyone, you know, I was just, I, I didn't have any of these skills. I didn't know, I was just happy. Let's, you know, ah, it's gonna be great.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: It's like a Odie in Garfield, just ha ha ha. So it's a, it's a journey.

Haley Radke: Well, and I think you kind of alluded to this, but this deep-seated fear of like a re abandonment, I think is in a lot of us. And so we will say yes to a 10 day visit, even though, or like really, right, we'll say boundary crossings all over the place just to keep the peace.

And, and that that comes at our costs. Like it's, you know, and so I think with, you know, lots of therapy and maturity can come, the ability to set those [00:27:00] limits, like you were saying, but it's hard won.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, it is. And, and you do, I mean, I'm really glad you, know, say out loud, get some competent help to go through this. I really didn't have any, I just. Just was fumbling along. And then over the years, you know, since then, finding lots of issues within my adoptive family too, and having that family cut me outta their will. So kinda, I know, I don't know, too many people have been cut outta the will twice for two different families. But here I am.

Haley Radke: You're just too successful. Like what?

Megan Hunter, MBA: In a way which does, you know, not to be, you know, narcissistic or conceited or anything, but I think there's some, issues of that in one family, not so much in the other and none in the other, but. Yeah, you have to, you just, you need help 'cause you have to, it's, these are really [00:28:00] challenging, difficult situations that can take a toll on your self-esteem. And you can really take some, some big hits. And there are things I just didn't understand, like why am I looking like a psychotic person on the patio at Gooding? You know, back and forth and swinging all over the place.

And, you know, and I, I've been to therapy and, you know, I help a lot of other people, but at, at the same time, I was experiencing this myself and I couldn't get a grip on it. I just couldn't understand it. So I think that for me at least, that seemed like that comes from the deep down adoption stuff, is there are things we are doing ourselves, we just can't understand.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Why am I feeling this way? Why am I doing this? Why? So for me, it finally kind of came together when, you know, I had to make some tough decisions in my life about my adoptive family [00:29:00] and just some really heavily unhealthy things there. And it was okay for about three days after I made my decision.

Tough. I'm strong. I've got a great husband. I have great kids, all this. And day three, I was like, wake up, woke up and I always felt like I was falling apart, like I felt a little crumbly and I called my husband at his office about 10 o'clock. I said, I've never not had a family before. I don't know how to do this.

I don't know if I can do this. He hops in his car, drove home from his office, 30 minutes, sat me down at the table, my calm, cool, collective, super sweet husband, and he looked at me and he said, don't ever again let anyone hold your self-esteem, value, or happiness in their hands. That was it. I was over it. I was fine, and I've been fine ever since.

It's been years. There's something in that that I guess. I don't know [00:30:00] if it's just my temperament that I didn't have that strong self-esteem or know who I was or was adoption part of it. I don't know, but it sure helped with all of it.

Haley Radke: Hmm. Thanks for sharing that. I don't know if you're comfortable talking about this, but I know your a mom and you have a big family, extra, extra step kids now, and you've got, you know, lots of people to love who all are influenced when we're talking about reunion, right? It's,

Megan Hunter, MBA: yeah.

Haley Radke: Trickles down. So in the difficult times, how did you talk about these things with your kids, you know 'cause I'm estranged from my adoptive parents also and it's, rare, but every once in a while, one of my children will be like, ask about the grandparents they barely remember anymore 'cause it's been a number of years. Right. And so having those conversations with them and also trying to make sure they know I'm not gonna go anywhere, you [00:31:00] know, like I'm here.

Megan Hunter, MBA: True.

Haley Radke: And also they know their mom is adopted and I was separated from my parent. Right. So. So it's really complex to have these conversations with our children at whatever age or stage it's sort of happening. Do you remember having anything like that with yours?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Probably not in such a thoughtful way as you've just said it, I think. Honesty is always a great policy. And I think that came from my parents always telling me I was adopted. So that's just kinda carried through my life. I think being authentic can't hurt.

So I think if you've raised your children with that secure attachment, that's the foundation. And then you can be honest and, and you know, depending on their age. But just asking them, you know, when mommy, if something came up and you say, you know, if when mommy goes to the store, does Mom come back? Yep.

Well, I'm always gonna come back for you. I'm always here. You know? So I think it's just [00:32:00] repetitive information like that and action, and it can be words or it can be your actions. Right. It's just, it's just being there. So did I have that conversation? Hmm. Not so much. I would probably whined and complained it too much, but they were older.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: You know, but even things that I probably took missteps or screwed up with my kids, I've been able to kind of repair that, you know, in adult life. And I'm just very vulnerable and transparent with them and they experience changes that I'm going through that are pos, you know. All changes, I guess. But I'm always working toward positive growth and development and they feel that.

Haley Radke: I bet.

Megan Hunter, MBA: And now they're pretty healthy for the most part. And they make decisions about people in their lives. They're very supportive of me. I've been very much, don't be a take sides person. If you wanna have [00:33:00] a relationship with any of the people that I don't have a relationship with, that's your choice.

I will respect that and support whatever you decide. If something becomes unhealthy and I see it, I might bring it up to you, but it's gonna be up to you. It's your choice. And I think through that, that's taught them to make their own choices and they are healthy choices because of that.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: The bad part of it, the negative or the negative side I've seen is that when I kind of did a walk away from my adoptive family. Then one of my children kind of wanted to distance himself from his brother, my other child. And I, you know, I keep saying, don't do that. You can't do that. We gotta keep our family together, we gotta keep ourselves, you know, and his comment was, well mom, you know, look, you walked away from your family. So kinda have to weigh those things.

And [00:34:00] role modeling is really important. And I think for me at least, it was trying to avoid being all or nothing and, and saying, look, I'm putting a pause. I've walked away, but it's a pause. It may change in a couple of years. I don't know yet, but I'm gonna do the right thing. I'm taking right steps, and if I learned I've taken a wrong step, I'll try to make a right one the next time. If this relationship is meant to heal, I'm open to that. So I think it's just figuring out as you call.

Haley Radke: Yes. Okay. Well said. Thank you. Is there anything else that I, I know you've sort of dipped your toe in with the adoptee community or with the NPE community, I know you've gone even presented at one of the conferences.

And is there anything that you see in adoptees that, especially related to your expertise in conflict that we should learn about more or advice for [00:35:00] us? Anything like that?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Well, first of all, I was really surprised at the first conference to see that it was, there's so many, and it was, you know. In the old days it was just adoptees.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Now it's all these other non-parent event, I don't know, what are they? Embryo donors and all this, all that other stuff. And now

Haley Radke: This is the Untangling Our Roots conference that we're talking about. Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah. And then people who, you know, were one of 60 children from a sperm donor and just, it's grown so much and there's, you see the same desires in no matter what circumstances you came from and the people I've talked to that have like just found out, let's say they're my age and they found, find out dad's not my dad, a bio dad. It's really interesting to see how deeply that cuts that they've been lied to. They're 55 years old and they found out I'm not Jewish and I thought I had, you know, Holocaust [00:36:00] survivors in my family and now I find out I'm not even part of that family and that's their thinking.

So. I think, you know, obviously people listening to this are, maybe have gone past that already. I don't know. But I guess my words of caution would be to be cautious because there are people who are not healthy. There are people who may take advantage or they might have a really wonderful outcome.

I've talked to some who thought they'd found their biological parent, and then it turned out it wasn't. Now they've built and established a relationship with that person and then find out, oops, that wasn't him. Now another hurt. So I just think you have to be cautious. You don't have to be afraid or live in fear, but just get with that therapist, get with somebody that's walked this journey. Get with a good friend who has a very objective perspective and take your time. There's no rush. [00:37:00]

Haley Radke: Yes, definitely, I mean. Huh. I should say sometimes people feel a sense of urgency depending on how old they are when they search those kinds of things.

And that also can make us make some foolish choices, so.

Megan Hunter, MBA: That's true.

Haley Radke: Yeah. As much as you can. I totally agree. Take your time and have, have someone walking alongside you if you can.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah. And if I can just say one thing real quick. This has probably been kind of heavy for people. It's just reality. I'm very much about reality and being authentic, and if it helps someone, I hope it does. There's also some really great stuff that's happened in my life and I have these two sisters, half sisters, and we vacationed together this summer. I look in their eyes and I see my eyes, and those are, as you know, it's really cool when you finally find someone that looks like you or they talk like you or they act like you or you find you have these common traits and, [00:38:00] you know, wonderful, wonderful relationships. And I'm, I'm very fortunate that I've, I've been blessed with like some great humans in my life. The only downside with that is there are four siblings in that family, and two are on the out, way out, and two are in. And so when I came into it, it was three sisters and me, and I was considered a triplet with them.

There's twins and then I was, I was so much like them. They called me their triplet. Well, those two twins don't talk anymore.

Haley Radke: Mm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: And that was another loss for me was feeling like I'd lost now the sisterhood because of that.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: But you know, as a grownup, you have to accept those things and.

Haley Radke: Man, it's complicated.

Megan Hunter, MBA: It's complicated.

Haley Radke: Well, I, I'll share with you before we do recommended resources. I'm in Reunion for over 12 years now, and I also have siblings and was at my youngest sister's wedding earlier this [00:39:00] year, you know?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Oh.

Haley Radke: So you get to reclaim some of those special moments that perhaps you missed growing up with them. But it's pretty amazing to build those relationships now as adults.

Megan Hunter, MBA: You got to be at the wedding.

Haley Radke: I did. Yes.

Megan Hunter, MBA: That's amazing.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: That's so amazing. I love that. Oh, that's so good.

Haley Radke: Yep.

Megan Hunter, MBA: So good.

Haley Radke: Well, I am just, I have too many things that we could keep going on, but you have so many resources available for folks. In fact I know you have a number of books out, and so I was like, I don't know what. I should order to like prep for an interview, but I ordered one. 'cause I'm like, I'm gonna give this to my friend soon as we're done.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Oh,

Haley Radke: okay. It, I, I ordered High Conflict Co-parenting Survival Guide because my friend

Megan Hunter, MBA: Nice,

Haley Radke: not funny, but is in that very situation and so I was like, oh perfect, I can give this to her. And I was listening to your show. You have a podcast called It's All Your Fault, High Conflict People, and you have so much great [00:40:00] advice, Megan. And I saw you present at, not at one of the conferences, but I think you did a, a little event for Right to Know, and you were talking about the BIFF method and, and those kinds of.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Oh, yeah.

Haley Radke: I won't, I won't say what those things are. I mean, people can go and read and listen to those, but like, you give so much very practical advice and I love that. It's super helpful just in your day to day, right? Because we're adoptees, but we're humans and we live with people,

Megan Hunter, MBA: right?

Haley Radke: And all those things. So I hope folks go and check out all of those things. Is there anything in particular you wanna direct adoptees to in all of your, like, there's so many things. We'll link, we'll link to all the things, but there's so many things to mention.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, we do have a lot. So the, we've just in the last month or two launched a new platform called conflictinfluencer.com and it's for 18 years, we've been training professionals, like lawyers and judges and psychologists and all that, how to deal with high conflict clients, litigants, [00:41:00] HR, all of that. But you know, we discovered there's just a lot of people dealing with high conflict in their personal lives and they're confused by it and they're really tired.

So we launched this platform to help anyone. So I would say that's probably a pretty good resource where to start, all the books are on the website and there's a class I teach called Conflict Influencer and it's like a six week class. It's really pretty inexpensive. I am notorious under pricer, but I just want people to get the help and, and get the support from the rest of the group and things like that. So that's always running and there's little classes and courses and all kinds, and the podcast is free. You know, that's, that's always on. And my co-founder, Bill Eddie, who's just absolutely genius, brilliant. He's the one that came up with BIFF and EAR and all these things.

We recorded two episodes today and we're recording another, so we're always answering listener questions and all of that.

Haley Radke: It's really helpful like for folks who are like, Ooh, I kind of wanna know more of that. Like, [00:42:00] seriously, it's not like one of those shows where you sort of skim the top and you don't ever get to, they're like, buy this course. So then you can really know, like you share all the things.

Megan Hunter, MBA: I probably have a problem. I don't even know.

Haley Radke: Oh, I'm sure someone, someone out there would tell you to pay wall some of that, but no, I'm really thankful. I have the same thing, right? Adoptees On free for all, for, you know, hopefully forever in the will. And I think it's important, you know, like we have these stories and this wisdom, you have this expertise and I think it can bring peace to so many people, you know?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah.

Haley Radke: So thank you. Thank you for sharing that and for sharing some of your story with us. What an honor to hear the personal, so we are best to connect with you then online?

Megan Hunter, MBA: So probably conflictinfluencer.com.And my last name is Hunter. So I'm Megan Hunter on Instagram. I think it's like Megan Hunter official or something, and I can give you the links, but I have all [00:43:00] kinds of social media that I never use, so you can find me at conflictinfluencer.com.

Haley Radke: It's because she's out there teaching people. You're at conferences, you're presenting to businesses and traveling the world. Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, exactly. Trying to hold it all together and make good decisions and have good relationships all at the same time, but you're doing the same and it's, you know, really, really important work you're doing. So I'm, I'm really grateful for that. It's, it's needed.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Thank you so much.

I don't know if I gave this the biggest sell in the episode, but you would not believe the difficult situations that Megan has helped folks navigate. She is like this amazing mediator [00:44:00] and truly, I have learned so much from their podcast. It's so, so good. Even in just day to day of how you, you know, interact with people online or if you're gonna send that email, you know following their method of how to write things is just really helpful and practical. Am I repeating myself? Anyway, I hope that if you have been struggling in a relationship with someone that's really, really difficult, that you do go and listen to her show and look up some of those resources that they're offering because it's so helpful. Super duper helpful.

And, you know, we kind of talked around this a little bit in the episode, but reunion can just be so fraught. You know, everyone brings all their own baggage to the table, and you have this idea that you're going to like meet your [00:45:00] family, and we're gonna be so much alike and everything's just gonna go smoothly.

And that is just fake. It's not real. That is unrealistic unless everyone participating is actively working on themselves and working on the relationship and being really communicative and open it it just doesn't go the way the you know, reunion shows show you the, the, we used to call it reunion porn. Do we, are we still saying that? Anyway, so I hope that if this is you and you're in the new stages or you're thinking about searching and that you, do slow down and you get some support 'cause it's very difficult stuff. I really appreciate you listening, and I, I'm so thankful to each guest that shares their expertise and lived experience with us.

It's just a [00:46:00] real gift to be able to share these conversations with you. If you wanna keep hearing more Adoptees On, you can partner with us and go to adopteeson.com/partner and sign up to support the show on Patreon. We would love to have you there, and thanks for listening. Let's talk again soon.

308 Alexandra Mann

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/308

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Who among us doesn't love a good movie? And how many times have you been watching a film and a jump scare? Some terrible adoptee trope comes outta nowhere. Today's guest, Alexandra Mann had that happen one too many times.

And what grew out of that all too common adoptee misrepresentation in the media was the Adoptee Film Fest, which is now in its second year, spotlighting adoptee filmmakers telling adoptee stories. Alexandra shares about her personal story as a domestic [00:01:00] transracial adoptee from Hong Kong, and how therapy preserved her relationship with her adoptive parents after a giant secret came to light.

We do have a mention of suicidal ideation in this conversation, so please listen with care. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources. A chance to meet in person in New York City in November, 2025, and as always links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On Alexandra Mann. Hello, Alexandra.

Alexandra Mann: This is crazy Haley.

Haley Radke: She's speechless.

Alexandra Mann: Hi. Hi Haley. I am speechless. I am speechless. I am so [00:02:00] happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me on. I can't, this is my first time talking to you, meeting you. So the fact that you just introduced me, excuse me, everyone for a moment I am freaking out. But. Just because Adoptees On was the first adoptee podcast I ever listened to in a desperate time of need. So this is just really full circle for me and I really can't believe it.

Haley Radke: Oh, thank you. I'm so glad the show could be there for you in a critical time. That's amazing.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah, no, it really was my adoptee therapist. This was before I had adoptee community. I was out in Hong Kong doing a birth search for looking for my birth mother.

And yeah, my therapist was like you should listen to some podcasts and gave me three. She recommended yours being one of them and yeah I binge listened to all the ones where you interviewed [00:03:00] transracial adoptees, just 'cause that's where my pain was at the time, thanks for being that incredible resource.

It honestly was really fundamental for me and understanding that I'm not alone, which seems, obviously very funny now where half of my community are adoptees. But yeah, it was very isolating, as a lot of us know and your podcast brought me just, a little taste of what that community could look like and that I was very much not alone.

Haley Radke: Oh,

Alexandra Mann: This is very special.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Thanks for sharing that with me, and thank you for being willing to share your story because someone else is going to listen to your episode, will be their first episode, and they'll know they're not alone. So that's pretty cool. Let's start there. Do you wanna share some of your story with us?

Alexandra Mann: Yeah, absolutely. I'm a domestic transracial adoptee from Hong Kong, so basically let's break that down 'cause I do think it's rare. At least in my [00:04:00] community here in New York I don't know a single other domestic transracial adoptee from Asia. So essentially, my parents, my mom's Texan, my dad's from England.

They were expats. They lived out in Hong Kong for 35 years and during that time, they adopted my sister and I was adopted at five months old and grew up in Hong Kong. I will say that. Before then. I've since learned because I received a letter from my birth mother or my parents. My adopted parents were given a letter from my birth mother when they adopted me. I didn't find this out until I was 26.

Haley Radke: How did you find the letter?

Alexandra Mann: My dad and I got into a big fight about BLM that was going on at the time. He for some reason felt like it was relevant to tell me that now. So yeah, a lot of us as transracial adoptees know that it could be hard, [00:05:00] to have these kind of conversations with our parents, and I definitely experienced that for five years, and this was the peak of it at the end of those five years. And yeah he told, even though, in my mind those are very separate conversations and I need to caveat this with by saying that period in life almost broke my adoptee family apart, but adopted family.

Sorry. Having come out of it and come through it, having worked through it with them now, we all got adoptee therapists. My sister, me, my parents, and three, four years later now, we are so much stronger because of it. And I don't need it to be, I'm not trying to be like, oh, this is a story where we were able to work it out 'cause I know that's not the case with everyone, but we would not be as close for sure if we hadn't had that period. Yeah, so TLDR, me and my dad, we were able to work it out. Honestly, we were really close before that, so it was heartbreaking. [00:06:00] Absolutely. I felt a lot of betrayal. He knows all this. I think it's very okay to share.

Haley Radke: Can I ask you, looking back on it, when do you wish they had given you that letter?

Alexandra Mann: I wish that it had been, part of the conversation around when they were first starting to tell me that I was adopted to normalize it, to normalize my birth mother in my life. I think a lot of people's default is to think, oh, once I turn 18, even my birth mother in the letter, the first line is, you are now 18 and I am blah, blah, blah.

But no I honestly wish it had. I wish it had been in my life and part of those conversations, why does it need to be a secret at all? It makes you feel like there needs to be shame around this secret letter. When I wish I had known the information in it all along, my parents hadn't read it.

It was in Chinese [00:07:00] before they had given it to me, but it answered a lot of the questions I had always wondered about my adoption and my past. Yeah, what I think if it had been done that way, some of the anger and the feeling of betrayal wouldn't have been there.

Haley Radke: So in recent years, you got this and what did your mother tell you?

Alexandra Mann: My birth mother told me that she was 15 when she had me, I, that was the only piece of information that I actually knew that my parents had told me about her, I had always been told that the reason why you were relinquished was because you're birth mother. Both my sister and I separate birth mothers, but we had the same situation when they were teenagers.

And teenagers shouldn't raise children. And I believe this so much to a point that I remember when I as a teenager. There was someone in [00:08:00] high school, a couple years older than me and my friends who got pregnant, and I she kept the baby. And I just remember thinking, this is morally wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

If she really loved the kid or herself, she would relinquish them. And obviously looking back I'm like, whoa, what the actual hell? But I don't believe that now, obviously, but it was so ingrained in, into me that this was an act of love and that because it happened to me and look at all the amazing things that I was adopted into and the love I had, that this was the right course of actions for women in that situation, which is really funny thinking about looking back and sad, but yeah it, she detailed her situation. Her and my birth father had been in love since they were 11, and because of the laws in Hong Kong, she didn't tell anyone about the pregnancy. She did share [00:09:00] that she had, sorry, trigger warning. Suicidal ideation and that she really loved me. She told me what my name meant. She told me what time I was born, so now I know I'm a Libra rising. That's so sick.

Haley Radke: No, but a lot of people don't have that. It was, and especially transracial adoptees where they get like the birth window. I think I was born in this month long period.

Alexandra Mann: CoStar had me down as sag before this, so that didn't feel right. But yeah, apparently my, the name, she gave me Lee, Yin Ning, she says that it means growing up safe and sound, which is obviously very emotional. But yeah, she says she loves me so much. This is the hardest thing she'd ever done in her life. And she hopes that she'll be able to see me. Please don't forget about her, she'll always be here. And you can tell that a 15-year-old wrote this [00:10:00] on stationary because the stationary, the piece of paper, it's written on has cartoon monkeys and hearts. And at the top it says, come find me if you ever have a problem. I'm sorry, but what? That's the only English on the whole letter from that stationary. So yeah, I was absolutely a mess when I received this letter bawling, so it was quite hard because I was told about the letter, on FaceTime. I live in New York. My parents are living in Hong Kong at the time, and it was during 2020. So at the end of 2020 I learn about this and then I have to quarantine in Hong Kong in a hotel by myself for two weeks before I can leave and see my mom and dad. And so there's it was a lot of anticipation.

I found out in October, late October, and I didn't receive it until I was released from quarantine over Christmas time. So yeah, it was a lot I [00:11:00] got released at midnight from the hotel and drove home with my parents who I hadn't been really speaking to that much, since they had told me. So it was all very crazy.

But yeah, absolute mess bawling and it's so funny because when I was reading this, it was such a mix of emotions where I was in a place where. I was feeling really betrayed and hurt by my mom and dad, but at the same time reading this letter, really yearning for their comfort and their cuddles during it. So it's literal, absolute dissonance during that period with them. It just, yeah, it felt mind rocking. I feel like my friend Lindsay, she always tells people that when you find out new information about yourself as an adoptee, it feels like you're Peter Pan and the, Peter Pan has a shadow self that's separate. When you find new information [00:12:00] out, you have to it takes time, but you have they eventually will sew them together, when you, it really feels outta body and who me? You're talking about me. It's hard to put that together.

Haley Radke: Okay. Are you comfortable talking about how you all got your own therapists? What did that look like? And did you have any sessions where you talked together just for folk? Lots of people are dealing with hard things in relationship with their adoptive parents and often it just goes to estrangement and we don't talk about the, what could you do in between to help bridge some of that?

Alexandra Mann: Oh my gosh. First off, yeah, it, you're right. It is a very emotional topic. I am sorry, I'm just looking at your face right now. And yeah it's really tough and I so empathize and I'm there with folks who have this experience. I'm not sharing this to [00:13:00] be like, this is what you should do.

I really don't. I was in survival mode. I'm looking back and I'm grateful things turned out the way they did, but they very much might have not turned out this way. So when I went to college, that's what I was a social sciences major and so I learned about social politics for the first time.

That which not something we talked about in Hong Kong at all. And I never had questioned my transracial reality. I very much thought I was white, I knew I wasn't. So many of us transracial adoptee think in our head sometimes we're white. And I just really rejected a lot of my Asianness, my Chineseness, and just why I didn't want the white people to find out my secret that I was actually Chinese.

So by the time I get to college, my mind's blasted. I go to one of the most liberal universities in Canada, UBC is a public university on the West coast. So my, i'm [00:14:00] learning so much. I become what I think a lot of people in Hong Kong at least when I would return, called me in their heads I was a social justice warrior to them because, why isn't anyone talking about any of the stuff?

And I detailed this to say that I had been an already, a five year fight almost with my mom and dad about race and that my sister and I being two transracial Chinese adoptees are Chinese, are Asian, are people of color. And what that meant, they were very much initially racist.

First there was not conversations they had ever really had and they struggled to believe that this was our reality and I felt really whitewashed by a lot of my community at the time who, I'd heard growing up , we don't even see you as Chinese. We don't even see you as Asian. You're normal. Because for context, while I [00:15:00] grew up in Hong Kong, we were in the expat community in Hong Kong. Hong Kong was a British colony until ninety six. I was born in 95. So even today there's colonial. Colonial divide between the more affluent white expats, mostly white majority whites and local Hong Kong Chinese people.

It's so separate, or at least it was my reality. My parents lived there for 35 years and didn't have a single friend of color really. So that's what the environment I was having those conversations in. So it was already charged. So by the time I found out about the letter, it was the last straw where I was so mad.

So I was at a point where I just, I was so emotional, so angry. I felt like I was the one who was trying to. They felt maybe I was trying to tear the family apart. I felt I was actually trying to keep the family together by saying I need, we were trying to [00:16:00] have conversations around this.

Obviously my parents felt bleep awful. They knew they had bleep up immediately, right? But also were maybe trying to convey why they had chosen to do what they did, even though they knew they had bleep up. I need you to see me as. Chinese as Asian, I need to see me and, sorry. And that that wasn't happening.

There was just I felt really unheard. I'd send them articles and things. I really would appreciate if they would listen to and read just to understand where I was coming from, more just my life a bit more and they wouldn't do it, we just have very vast different perspectives about what I was trying to do.

And so I was at a point where this is too hard for me. I felt so safe once with you, but I feel so unsafe. I feel so triggered. I had stopped going to family friend functions at that time because all white communities, and I didn't even feel that [00:17:00] safety from my own family, immediate family.

I dunno. It just all felt so hard. So yeah, around the time I got the letter, I honestly need to walk away or I feel a desire to, and this is why I say I don't recommend people doing this. I was just at a point where I just felt like I didn't have any more options and I had wanted them to see a therapist or an talk to an adoptee therapist, which is literally an adult adoptee, right?

Because they were all coming from me. In their eyes, maybe their young child who had been radicalized by UBC, I'm kidding. But I just felt like anything I would say, wasn't really getting through or taken seriously. So I just wanted them to speak to someone else, which wasn't, they didn't wanna do, didn't wanna do it was just awkward.

It was just silence would happen or when any of the stuff was brought up and the fear, I guess that's common in adopted parents, [00:18:00] I guess in on their end was really triggered, right? They were like, we can't lose our child. We don't wanna lose our child. And so they agreed to start seeing an adoptee therapist.

They don't, yeah, so they saw them for maybe a year on and off. My sister also is in a reunion now, so that was also going on, I guess within those couple years. So a helpful resource for all and it changed everything because it went from, I guess them not trying to, but it felt to me it was very dismissive of what I was trying to talk to them about all those years, which I will be honest ended up in screaming matches most of the time 'cause it was such an emotional thing for me to talk about.

And they felt, I guess looking back a lot of shame around their ability as a parent, which is not what I was trying to get at all, right? But that's what we were hearing from each other. [00:19:00] And so them being able to speak to a therapist allowed them to open up their minds. And I had been the educator in my family for five, six years at that point.

And so it also took that weight off my shoulders. But yeah, they definitely saw where I was coming from a bit more and allowed them to learn how to create that safe space for me. And now I feel very safe with them. In past where maybe something, a racist comment might have happened, at a family friend thing or at a family thing.

I, I trust, especially when mom I really feel like she'd pick it up and I wouldn't have to say this person just said this. And then her being like what do you want me to do about it? Or I don't think that's bad, or say something dismissive. So it's looking back it always is funny to reminisce on and wow, we've had such a 180 as a family that I'm really grateful. I think for [00:20:00] context as well. Another layer I will add is that I had I did birth search, but the person who may be my birth mother, replied to the search and asked, please don't reach out to this number again. And so I, after all this felt that rejection from my birth mother.

So I can see that perhaps the adoptee in me is just not to be "grateful" for my adoptive parents person or adoptee. That's absolutely, not what I'm trying to perpetuate here [gratitude]. Okay, that's not in my control. That's probably, that's not gonna happen now. My parents are aging the relationships are very important to me and I'm grateful we've been able to rebuild a hundred percent. They're truly some of my favorite people. They are my favorite people in the world, and I'm so glad that we've been able to come out of this stronger 'cause I know that doesn't happen for everyone.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing the nitty gritty of it all, sincerely. It's it'll be really helpful for a lot of people to hear, and I [00:21:00] think a lot of people don't understand the onus of educating adoptive parents is put on the adopted person, and especially when we're immersed in this pro adoption culture where the adoptee tropes are aplenty.

And I know you have big feelings about that. So let's go there. Can you take me to, or do you remember, so you're unpacking this adoption stuff. You must be looking at media things in a little bit of a different light. What do you remember? Either TV movies, like seeing some adoptee representation and you're like, this is so off base so wrong. What are the ones that come to mind right away?

Alexandra Mann: So I think in the period of the letter when I was home doing my birth search, when I was going through all this with my family, it's a four month period where I was living in Hong Kong after Christmas [00:22:00] that year because I didn't wanna go back to New York in case my birth mother reached out.

So I was right in it. I didn't have adoptee community at the time. I was living at home with my parents and my sister during COVID. I was watching tv I remember I had started this show called The Fosters, and then it was also mid during, This Is Us still airing and both shows, and I was watching that on the same time, both shows had birth mothers return to the adoptee's life. And I think they were both really negatively portrayed, right? I think in the Fosters there are some drugs involved, someone was looking for money Classic. And then and This Is Us, the birth mothers also a drug addict who, Randall was better off without .

And at the time I don't know, I just, I was finding it really triggering to watch, but also recognizing, oh, this is [00:23:00] the trope, this is the common trope that I feel I have been seeing all my life, and just paying attention to it for the first time and then this is one of the classic tropes about adoption that is always portrayed and started picking up on more and more. The centering of white adoptive parents most of the time in stories. Think of, for example, Blindside being the most famous one, and I just, I didn't have creativity time. I wanted mirroring. That's why your podcast is so powerful, because I, it's okay, I'm not seeing it. I don't wanna put words into my mouth, but maybe I had that conversation with my therapist. I'm so triggered by this media, I'm consuming. She was like, hey, stop consuming that. Maybe just go to or turn to adoptee created sources. Here are some podcasts. I might be pulling that outta my ass, but wouldn't that be a lovely story? So yeah, I was noticing all this. I was crying in my journal, writing all of it [00:24:00] down because I was not only feeling misunderstood by the stories I was seeing on screen, I was feeling misunderstood by everyone in my life at that point of time.

Even the lovely people who were trying to understand and et cetera, it just felt so isolating and I was just hyper triggered all the time and crying. Crying, writing my journal. Lowest I've ever felt, honestly, in my whole life. So alone. And I just had a moment where I was like, whoa, maybe survival. But my brain just realized at that point, my North Star has to be championing adoptee centered, adoptee created adoption narratives because this is work. I had a job in New York before this where I was working, so the social impact department at Vice Media Group, RIP. And I was helping to [00:25:00] identify underrepresented narratives to weave into our content.

So I knew there's somewhat of a thing in the industry and I wasn't in touch with my adoptee identity at the time. I had not come into consciousness when I had that job, so I didn't think to champion our stories, which is so funny looking back now. But yeah, that's where it all kicked off.

Haley Radke: And so

Alexandra Mann: Pain. And need

Haley Radke: Pain. So your intense pain bore out this idea for the Adoptee Film Fest, which I attended virtually last year and was just,

Alexandra Mann: thank you.

Haley Radke: Oh, it just fed my soul, i've been podcasting for a long time. I do my very best to highlight adoptees you should know and highlight their work. And we've had plenty of filmmakers on and it's hard for them to get their stuff out there. And if you're, especially if you're [00:26:00] independent, it's really tough to get eyeballs on these amazing stories and very important stories. And so I was thrilled. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so happy that this is in the world, truly. And yeah. So you made a thing and it's now in its second year, was very successful. Tell us about coming up with the idea and tell us the story.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah, absolutely. So Haley, the Film Fest account probably started following you just because you were you and Adoptees On was in my world during that time where I literally

Haley Radke: I gotta pause you here. Okay. Because people. I just want you all to know, I didn't know that you listened to this show ever until you filled up my guest form a few weeks ago, just so you know. Okay. So I did not have Alex on to gas me up. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.

Alexandra Mann: Oh my God. No. I'm doing this [00:27:00] completely outta my own passion. I love that though. I this, the film festival is version three, version two of what I had initially wanted to do when I had that Pink Screens north star moment. I knew I wanted to champion, adoptee storytellers, but it wasn't manifested in the form of the film festival as we know it today. It was just, I just wanted to get adoptees in media and entertainment together to see how can we help champion adoptee, storytellers, adoptee creators, adoptee, filmmakers, writers, who's in the room with us here? Who's in the industry? And. That project quickly failed, but that's probably the account that followed you.

It was the Filmfest Instagram account, used to be called the Adopting Media Collective. Very short-lived. But it's funny, I did meet a couple [00:28:00] people on the selection committee back in those days. We had one meeting and then I was air quotes, rejected from my birth mother and completely abandoned the project because I was abandoned.

So that was a thing that all happened during these four months in Hong Kong. And so I came back to New York. I was very much unemployed, I'd been part of a reorg cut at my company, and so I was unemployed for 10 months, and so that was the goal. I needed to find a full-time job, but I couldn't let go of this being a thing that I wanted to do.

I will say that after the hearing back from my birth mother, I didn't want anything to do with the project or if I work on that, I just wanna not. Nope. Later I was just putting everything away into a box. But the thing that helped me get out of that [00:29:00] was my roommate Lindsay, she's my best friend.

She was my first adult adoptee friend, and we met each other online on Roomie, which is an app like Tinder for roommates, and she dragged me to my first adoptee event. But also known as annual picnic, and I did not wanna go. I was like, Ugh, eye roll. I do not wanna engage right now. But it felt like I was on drugs when I was there in a good way, because I didn't know, I just had such a visceral reaction to being in community for the first time.

It felt like I was high in a good way because I was like, whoa, didn't know I needed this. Euphoric. But to go back to your original question, Haley, two and a half years down the line from this failed Adoptee Media Collective project, I go to my friend's film festival. They started the first [00:30:00] trans and gender queer film festival and they were in their third year at the time.

So I went and bleep this means so much to this community. You could feel it in the room as an ally of this community. I felt moved and inspired by this event. It really was one of those really special events, super well done where it's just, oh wow. You walk away from it, I couldn't shut up about it and whoa, it would be so cool to do this for adoptees. So that's the TLDR. Sorry, very long-winded way. I'd say I was inspired by my friends film festival, but I didn't know anything about film. And the industry. So I actually took two years to, educate myself, work on some film sets during some periods of unemployment and yeah, started it a couple years after that through the long process.

There were two years where I was telling people I was gonna do it and then [00:31:00] wasn't. Didn't I wasn't doing it, but here we are. Yay. We did it. Thank God.

Haley Radke: I think people don't realize how much work it is to organize something this large. It gets massive. It takes so many people. I used to work for a huge conference company. We did one conference a year and it was an enormous amount of work. And and I know it's not . It's volunteer, right? So thank you for taking up that weight and bringing it to life. It's just incredible. I'm so excited because I get to come in person this year and yay. So stoked.

Alexandra Mann: I'm so excited,

Haley Radke: so stoked. So we'll get to meet.

Alexandra Mann: Thank you for making the effort.

Haley Radke: I promise we will get to meet for sure.

Alexandra Mann: Wonderful.

Haley Radke: I know you've seen so many films now, so this year you have all the features. Last year you started with shorts, and so how many can you make a estimate if you don't know [00:32:00] exactly how many shorts, adoptee, shorts have you seen and features have you seen altogether from all the submissions for a couple years?

Alexandra Mann: Yeah, so last year we had 33 short submissions. This year we had 18, it's 51.

Haley Radke: We're good at math. Okay. 51 shorts. And how many features?

Alexandra Mann: Features? We got eight submissions this year and it was the first time we did it, so I've only seen those eight. Yeah.

Haley Radke: And have you personally watched?

Alexandra Mann: Yes, I've seen everyone and then everyone on our committee whose committees who are assigned to either shorts or features. They've also watched every single film.

Haley Radke: That's a lot of screen time. Yes.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. So in viewing all of these things, what are you hoping that people will create next? What's, what are the gaps? What's missing? What do you want to see?

Alexandra Mann: Oh my God. Love that. [00:33:00] Love that so much. I think so in terms of gaps. Something that I get really excited about is when someone submits or tells me that they're making a thriller or a comedy, we try in terms of our programming, one of our goals is to write, show people and our community that we're not a monolith. Right? And just further that. I think that it would be really cool for our community to start telling our stories in different genres just because we're not a monolith and so are, I guess the formats of our stories. Don't get me wrong, I love a good doc. I love a good drama, but I'm hoping that with the existence of the song festival and now filmmakers having hopefully this forum to communicate to each other, there's, exploration allowed in how we're telling our stories because they're so multifaceted. There are so many different ways to tell them. So that really excites [00:34:00] me. I also get excited when people are unafraid to bear or display angry adoptees. I think even in our submissions, in our films, we're not seeing a lot of that, which is cool, but. I'm just thinking back to when I was, for example, in my angry, my angriest air quotes adoptee space where even in adoptee spaces, I felt misunderstood and I just haven't really seen anything that adequately conveys how I was. I truly always encouraged and love to see adoptees being angry because it feels even within our community there's still some shame, a lot of shame around that. But I want us to be free. I just want us to be free.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Alexandra Mann: To be,

Haley Radke: I think, I feel like what I've seen in a lot of the documentaries is it's real, but it's not quite all the way there. Even when speaking with some of my friends who've made docs [00:35:00] that have, made the rounds already and it's they still wanted it to be somewhat palatable to the general public.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah.

Haley Radke: So yes, you're complicating the narrative a little bit for people, but they felt like they couldn't go all the way there yet. And that's so sad, to even sugarcoat your own story just so someone else will listen to it. We shouldn't have to do that.

Alexandra Mann: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I think we're self-censoring like that all the time. All the time. And the last film festival, the first one, when we were creating this project, first and foremost, the primary target audience for it was adoptees 'cause I was thinking of people like me who maybe hadn't seen that mirroring or felt that mirroring on screen, and not that I don't think we're ever gonna stray from that being for adoptees, being our primary target audience. I don't know. I hope that in [00:36:00] building, continuing to build this community of people who are hungry to see this mirroring, to see these stories that we're able to help create this safe space where filmmakers don't feel the need to self-censor. It's tough though, right? Because obviously if you put so much time and effort into a project and obviously want it to go beyond the Adoptee Film Festival. Yeah. There's still so much. I can understand that self-censoring wholeheartedly. And I hope long term, the film festival hopes to be a vehicle to be able to engage with the industry about these conversations that need to be had and help create some kind of path or understanding around, telling these stories through the adoptee lens in a authentic way where there allows more room to not [00:37:00] self-censor. And I think you're seeing that in different identity facets in Hollywood. It's a very weird time right now, but we can all see hopefully, right? How much more freedom Asians in Hollywood have been able to have in telling their stories. It's a long journey.

We're tiny in comparison to the entire Asian community in Hollywood, for example. And people still don't understand why adoptee advocacy is a thing, right? We still have to justify that in itself. So it's gonna be a long battle, but ultimately hope that we can do work in the future that allows for more freedom in us telling our stories in ways where we don't have to censor.

Haley Radke: Do you wanna make a film, Alexandra?

Alexandra Mann: Oh my God, Haley. I took a film class where we [00:38:00] had to write, direct and produce our own short film. And this was a year or two before I started the film festival. And I wrote. A script about my birth mother and kind of that period of me searching and had some flashbacks to when she was 15 relinquishing me, super short film.

I only was able to shoot the first opening scene because it was just too fresh for me then. I was still very much mid healing. Not that I'm not always, but it was so raw at the time, and there was definitely a sense in me that just wanted to run away from that project just like I did with the first adoptee media project I did.

And I also think that filmmaking takes a lot of patience. And can be, an up to five plus year project. [00:39:00] And I'm very impatient. Patience is not my middle name, so my background's in events. So the film festival felt very natural way for me to be able to still contribute to this goal and this desire of mine and this cause without stifling myself in the long run on that because this is a safe way for me to do it. This feels a productive way for me to contribute. Yes, maybe there's a bit of a barrier, but because I've had that firsthand experience of how tough it was for me to even think of following through on straight, finishing that short film I just have also the utmost respect for anyone who is able to do, especially people like Kristal who have full on feature length films. That's insane to me when I can even finish a five minute film. So I think this is great because I think one of my skills has always been championing other people I really believe in and giving pep [00:40:00] talk, just really putting people in the spotlight. Yes and no. It's not where I'm putting my time and effort into right now. At least. Never say never, but I also now think we're surrounded by so many amazing filmmakers who are so wonderful and talented that they're where my energy is going right now.

Haley Radke: Okay. So if they're listening and they wanna tell Alex's story, there's something there that they can come to you with. Okay, good. Okay, let's talk our recommend resources. And you mentioned Kristal. So our friend Kristal Parke has the documentary Because She's Adopted and you selected it as one of the features for the Adoptee Film Fest. But I really wanna encourage people come in person if you can. So you are having, first time ever, it's gonna be screening in New York and LA. This time it's November 2025.

Alexandra Mann: The feature film, sorry, only [00:41:00] in New York.

Haley Radke: Features in New York, but the shorts are gonna be New York and LA Yes. Okay. So I'm gonna come to New York and I'm gonna see the shorts. I think I'm gonna miss Kristal by a couple days, unfortunately. I know. Shocker.

Alexandra Mann: Really no way.

Haley Radke: I, you know what I, this is not a secret. I still have children at home.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Who need my attention way more than you'd think. And so I'm just thrilled I can even come midweek. So I feel like I'm already doing what I can.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. A hundred percent. And so happy. You're coming. Thank you.

Haley Radke: It takes me a whole day to get from Edmonton to New York, and people also know I don't like to change planes, and I'm gonna have to do that too, so it's all a big deal. Anyway, it's not about me.

Alexandra Mann: Thank you for making the effort, Haley.

Haley Radke: I'm so thrilled to be coming and so I hope to meet lots of you. I hope you're all gonna [00:42:00] come. You're gonna support Alexandra's Film Fest, and for those of you who you can't make it to New York, can't make it to LA there will be streaming online again. Yes. So folks can partake. And I know you wanna talk about that too 'cause what do you wanna recommend to us today?

Alexandra Mann: I would love to recommend, and I don't mean this to be a promotional plug or anything. Haley asked before this, recommend a singular resource that you think it'd be really helpful to people, and I just genuinely believe in that, the value and the power of it, because I know how much it helped me.

But the 2024 Adoptee Film Fest, short selections are still available to watch and screen online until November 20th of this year, 2025. And when I first, and I say this to say, when I first watched all of the films in the order, we knew [00:43:00] we were gonna screen them in last year. I just cried like a baby because it was everything I wish I had. In my time of going through all the stuff, all the feelings of isolation and being misunderstood with my own adoptee experience and coming into consciousness. So I just also really stand by it as a powerful and informative and helpful resource to adoptees because , you get to see yourself in these films in a lot of different ways, even if they don't pertain exactly to what you're experiencing. It's really, the filmmakers just are all very incredible and are able to really convey and get so much across. On our experience.

Haley Radke: I love the selections from last year. It's very inexpensive. I think it was, it's $10 I think to stream American and I told you this [00:44:00] off air, but Sullivan Summer and I, we talked through it all on Patreon last year and we went through each film and we critiqued, talk about what we loved

Alexandra Mann: because I didn't know either of you.

Haley Radke: So people might not know this about us Sullivan and I we're besties. They probably know that but we love movies, especially horror movies. And so we do these far away, quote unquote movie dates where we'll both go and see a horror movie on the same day and talk about it. We watched the film fest and we yeah talked about it. I love that there's different stories represented. There's a fiction doc cartoon, there's animated, and you're so thoughtful about inclusivity and making sure everything's captioned. You had things in other languages. It was just so well done. I am, I'm so thrilled for year two. Congratulations on your success, and we hope we are gonna sell out every single screening for you.

[00:45:00] And yeah, we're championing you over here so we can people find. Both the 2024 shorts, if they still wanna catch up, if they haven't seen those. And then where are people gonna be able to hear about how to get tickets, how to come all the info for Adoptee Film Fest for 2025?

Alexandra Mann: People can find the link to stream our 2024 shorts reel, either on our website, which is adopteefilmfest.com or on our Instagram @adopteefilmfest in our link in bio there.

And in terms of tickets. We're still finalizing some things with our venues who help us with our tickets, but we're gonna start rolling them out the goal is anyway, at the beginning of October, that first week of October. So yeah, very exciting. We're gonna be in LA for our short screenings for the first time this [00:46:00] year, and that's really exciting. We also. As you have shared, we'll be doing feature films for the first time in New York City, so it's very exciting year. We're quadrupling our programming lots more to see.

Haley Radke: Amazing. And I'm gonna put my plug in for Kristal Parke's feature screening, Because She's Adopted. It's amazing. I loved it.

It's very good. And she screened it here in my city and so I got to see it in person with her and yeah. Yeah, it was wonderful. So way to go Kristal. Congrats and congrats to you. Well done. Well done my new friend.

Alexandra Mann: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Haley Radke: And where can folks connect with you online?

Alexandra Mann: My Instagram is private, but if you wanna connect and be friends my LinkedIn is linkedin.com/in/mann1. And yeah, right now at least I'm the one running the film festival account on Instagram poorly. I will say it's not my expertise, [00:47:00] so sorry, but I'm there. I'm there too.

Haley Radke: Okay, great. Come on to Instagram people. Wonderful. What a delight to get to know you today. Thank you so much for sharing with us. It's just been a real pleasure.

Alexandra Mann: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Okay, friend. Here's your chance. If you wanted to hang out in New York City, please come hang out with me. I am gonna attend the Adoptee Film Fest. My plan is to be there on Thursday, November 6th, 2025, and our good friend Sullivan Summer here at Adoptees On most folks will know her from her multiple appearances on our Adoptees On Patreon. She's also been on the main feed show. You can scroll back and listen to her episode. We'll link it in the show notes. Sullivan is my, one of my [00:48:00] best friends and she is going to be having a reading and chapbook launch party on November 8th, 2025, which I'm so excited to be attending and cheering her on with that.

And we just have such an exciting week planned so you have time. We wanted to make sure you had this episode early so you can make your travel plans and come hang out with us. We would love to get to meet you in person and support Alexandra and support Sullivan in their adoptee endeavors. So please come to New York. We would love to have you if you're not able to make sure you stream the film fest. Or go in person on another night in LA or in New York, because the more we support events like this, the more they are able to be successful and grow and get adoptee voices [00:49:00] out into the broader culture. So please support their initiatives.

Thank you so much for listening to adoptee voices and prioritizing them. And I really appreciate you taking the time to spend with us in your earbuds. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again very soon.

307 [Healing Series] The Nothing Place with Pam Cordano, MFT

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/307

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to adoptees on. The podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I am so glad to be back with you after our summer break. Today's episode is a special episode in our healing series that, truthfully, I've been scared to do and I've intentionally been waiting to do because of this fear.

This concept has been on my show topic list for several years, ever since I heard the words The Nothing Place for the first time. I believe that naming and describing this idea to you could be so deeply helpful for adoptees that [00:01:00] we just have to go there today. This could potentially break open a block we've had in describing the true complexities and impact adoption separation has had on us.

Pam Cordano, one of our favorite adoptee therapists, is here to tell us about The Nothing Place, the glaring gaps in attachment theory that don't address adoptees very real separation trauma, and how examining this part of us can unlock a new sense of grounding and belonging that we haven't been able to access before. Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. Links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome [00:02:00] back to Adoptees On Pam Cordano. Hi Pam.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Hi Haley. Hi everybody.

Haley Radke: Okay behind the curtain. It is my birthday today. We are recording. This is gonna be the first episode back from summer break. I'm feeling a little rusty. You've been on the show so many times and the last time you were on you, this is back on episode 285 okay. It was transformational. Many people have listened to this episode multiple times. It's one of our top listened episodes. It's called The Seven Insights into Adoptee Attachment, and we talked about this thing called The Nothing Place. And I told you, I said, Pam, I've had this written on my whiteboard for a long time, like we should do a show about it. But it's so bleak and depressing. How would anybody wanna listen to this? And yet, here we are, [00:03:00] me feeling rusty and it's my birthday. So many feelings and we're gonna talk about The Nothing Place today.

Pam Cordano, MFT: We're crazy.

Haley Radke: Yeah. You know what? I love it. It's good. It's good. It's good for us to talk about hard things. We're gonna have trouble putting language to this, but I think it's been really transformational for a lot of adoptees to hear about this, to wrap their minds around this idea and give language to it. So that's what we're gonna help you do today. So let's start here. Pam, what is The Nothing Place?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Oh gosh. The nothing place is what happens when attachment is severed. Before a baby can differentiate self from other. Remember, babies are in symbiosis for the first six months of their lives. They don't know that they're a separate self, so the nothing place is what happens when attachment is severed before a baby can [00:04:00] differentiate self from other, it feels like non-existence.

For adoptees, it's often described as floating blankness and sometimes sheer terror.

Haley Radke: A nice slight topic.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. On your birthday?

Haley Radke: Sheer terror.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Sheer terror.

Haley Radke: Oh, do you wanna talk about my birthday? About August 22nd. What's special about today besides the fact that I came into this world?

Pam Cordano, MFT: That's the most special thing. You're 42 today. Is that okay to say out loud?

Haley Radke: It's okay. Yes.

Pam Cordano, MFT: And you're crushing it. And we all love you and we're so grateful for you. And so it's your birthday. That's the big thing. You could ask me to talk about any topic on your birthday, and I would likely say yes 'cause you're so special to me. The other thing that's interesting about today is it's a new moon and it's called a black moon because a black moon is the second new moon of a given month. And so today's a black moon. And I was just thinking about how the black moon, the new [00:05:00] moon represents darkness and hiddenness and beginnings that come out of the void.

And there was a point where you are a beginning that came out of the void and now you're here. And for those of us who are lucky enough or tenacious enough or have enough support, that we keep trying so hard to heal and to feel comfortable in our skin and in our lives, there's a way we can keep especially together coming out of this void of the nothing place.

Haley Radke: Do you wanna tell us about the origins of this named thing?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Yeah. I think I was there when it started. I was in a joint, very deep psychotherapy session. By joint there was me and then there was a non adopted attachment therapist, and the two of us were working with an adoptee.

And the adoptee went into this [00:06:00] really, I don't even know how to describe it. This is where words fail, but like a horrific looking place where I could see, and his eyes and in his whole being like, like a dorsal vagal, like a collapsed state where. He was just not with us, but it didn't look quite like dissociation.

It looked like something else. And so the attachment therapist said something like, hey, we're right here. Haven't you done this enough? Can't you come out? We're right here. Can you come out and find us here? And he just, the client just looked he looked like he was actually somewhere not nowhere, he was somewhere but somewhere awful.

And then as I kept looking at him, I said, no, we can't ask him to come to where we are. We have to go where he is. And the client said really calmly, this is a place where there is nothing. Nothing at all. And in that moment, I recognize, I feel like I started [00:07:00] crying. It was really a big moment, but I recognized it.

I could see him and he was, he described it where there's nothing at all. My whole body remembered somehow that place more consciously than I ever had before. And then we started calling it the nothing place. And what was super interesting is that once that happened and we, I went to him, I felt it, I think I started crying in that moment.

The other therapist, the attachment therapist suddenly realized that attachment theory does not account for what was happening. That attachment theory explains bonds that are insecure or disrupted, but they're still present in a continuous way for a human. But attachment theory does not explain what happens when attachment is completely severed before a baby has a sense of self, and other.

And that gap, the nothing place gap is where we adoptees, live in some deep part of ourselves and that we've [00:08:00] built a life on top of.

Haley Radke: So can we go to, like most people call it the fourth trimester, right? Baby is born and what's supposed to happen is. You as a baby, you learn from your mother. The mother is your nervous system. The mother is your source for life, food, all the things, emotional regulation, all of those things come from the mother. And you said that happens up to six months?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Yeah. I'll lay it out. So from zero to six months, the infant lives in symbiosis with a mother or the primary caregiver.

The infant has no clear sense of self or other, and the only way they regulate is inside of a shared system. So funny that I'm crying. This is so sad, but I'm usually not the crier, but

Haley Radke: [00:09:00] Oh, I a hundred percent am.

Pam Cordano, MFT: This is you were the one dreading this conversation and I'm the one who it is like it's hitting me. It's crazy. Anyway, so regulation comes, the baby's actual nervous system regulation comes from inside of a shared nervous system, not from their own nervous system. And then from six months to 18 months, there's this gradual differentiation where the baby starts realizing I'm separate, but I'm also connected.

This is built through thousands of micro moments where the mother leaves, the mother, comes back. The frustration inside the baby's system is soothed. The baby's hunger is met, and so these thousands of micro moments build from six months to 18 months. This gradual differentiation of I'm a separate self in relation to my caregiver mother.

Haley Radke: Is this what you've called call response before.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. And call and response starts from the moment a baby's born, but for the first six months, [00:10:00] even with call and response, the baby does not know that it's a separate self. But then starting around six months, they start to learn that gradually for the next up until they're 18 months old.

And then from 18 months to 36 months, the emergence of stable object constancy develops where my mom's not here. But I still know she exists. And this anchors a sense of the baby's self as continuous and not an annihilated.

Haley Radke: Wait, remember playing peekaboo?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And like it's only funny and nice to do when the baby knows you're gonna come back.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: There's a point where we don't have object permanence and so peekaboo was just like, oh my God, where did she go?

Pam Cordano, MFT: It's like a torture chamber,

Haley Radke: right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I didn't like playing that with children.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Like nothing places like a peekaboo that never had a second partner to come [00:11:00] back and show back up again. I'm serious.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I know. It's so bleak. You have to laugh or we will cry.

Pam Cordano, MFT: I know. Traditional classical attachment theory presumes some form of continuous caregiving. It does not build into it attachment rupture that adoptees go through, and this therapist was just shocked realizing that everything he had come to understand about attachment was missing a really core piece for some people in the population.

Haley Radke: Devil's advocate. It's okay, most of us were placed pretty soon to where we were born. If you were adopted as an infant, and so there was another adult doing those things. So what's the difference?

Pam Cordano, MFT: It's not about interchangeable adults for anybody. It's about [00:12:00] the one the baby is bonded to, and we get bonded in utero for nine months. And so whether a baby is relinquished at birth or a week later, or six months later or two years later, the mother is for the baby, is not an interchangeable figure. I think we adoptees know this, those of us who are outta the fog, we know this. I don't knowthat t he wider culture doesn't know this. And that's part of the illusion.

Haley Radke: That we're interchange, that the parents are interchangeable.

Pam Cordano, MFT: That parents are interchangeable.

Haley Radke: Yeah. With no consequence. So the attachment therapist is like, what the heck? I had no clue this was missing from attachment theory.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. He saw it like once, once he realized that he, that what was happening was outside of his framework, and it became really evident in the room and with the clients where the client went, and then how I responded with this recognition. Like it was very overwhelming [00:13:00] for this attachment therapist.

Haley Radke: Did they get emotional too?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Oh yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh.

Pam Cordano, MFT: They had to take a break. They realized they had that a huge thing had been missing around a whole segment of the population, meaning us, that it's not the same. And that therapists and people try to prematurely pull, let's say the adoptee or the relinquished person out of where the ground is that they're trying to, to heal from if they can get there and again asking the adoptee, I'll say to, to adapt rather than people knowing how to go and be where somebody is in the nothing place with them.

Haley Radke: I'm trying to picture studying this, because babies are nonverbal. There's no, there's nothing that's been. There's nobody, no words put to this before. It's not even an attachment [00:14:00] theory. And then so how do you even come to describe something like, it's just, yeah, this is what's really hard to put words to.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. The cool thing is that how this client could get here was, in my opinion, like extremely rare. He was able, even able to do this to go in there and then that there was this perfect configuration of an adoptee therapist and a non adoptee attachment specialist all in this at the same time.

It was this perfect moment where I feel like the value, one of the values is that moment started something that is, I think, and has been adding value to adoptees with trying to understand what makes this all so hard in healing and getting comfortable and grounded because it is preverbal and there's no cultural mirror.

So without having models, it's just, we're just, it is just this kind of chaos of confusion and trauma. But this is starting to put [00:15:00] order in like order and structure to what's underneath in this deepest place.

Haley Radke: Do you consider the nothing place the there's the act of obliteration, of connection between baby and mom, and then there's also the time period gap of when you should have this connection and be able to realize, come to a realization that you are an independent creature aside from a, the person you came from, is it all of that? Is it the one thing like, I'm trying to wrap my head around, what do you think about that?

Pam Cordano, MFT: I think it's a combination of the baby being in that symbiotic for most of us who are adopted under, at, under six months or at least had some kind of trauma or inconsistency, foster homes, whatever in the first six [00:16:00] months that, that before the baby, when the baby is still in symbiosis with a specific person who's their birth mother, even, from the moment they're born, it's the birth mother. That's who they've been with as a co-regulator, as one system the baby knows when that gets severed it's the breaking of that relationship during the time of symbiosis. That, that it, that's what we're talking about.

Haley Radke: Think about a NICU baby who

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yep.

Haley Radke: Can't come out for six weeks. And then can, would they have some version of this?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yes. And that's when Nancy Verrier, in The Primal Wound included NICU babies. And like my adoptive mother was a preemie in, I think two months in the NICU back in the thirties, 1930s. And she had a lot of similar kinds of issues in her nervous system as I did. Who knows, maybe that's even something that I don't know, made adoption [00:17:00] amenable somehow or appealing to her somehow. I don't know, but that's a weird thing to say. But yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. And this is, sorry, another slight rabbit trail. Thinking of children born by surrogate. So it's, that is something I'm so curious about when they start studying that because you can go to your genetic parents, but your tie is severed from the person who carried you to gestationally.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Very confusing.

Pam Cordano, MFT: I think a lot of adoptees think about that. The surrogacy. The other thing I wanna say about the NICU babies, and maybe this goes with surrogacy, depending on the situation and the organization of the structure of the families, but. With a NICU situation, if the parents are intact the lineage is intact. Even if the baby can't be held, particularly in the past, it's better now. There, there's more holding and more awareness of bonding and what the baby's actually need, [00:18:00] but there's still like a psychological, I could even say spiritual holding of that baby in an intact lineage. If that baby's being kept while they're in the NICU, it's a different kind. There's a holding kind of. I can only imagine that the baby would have similar kinds of biological trauma and this nothing place kind of experience, but there is some kind of a holding that is still intact. In that situation.

Haley Radke: Even if mom dies in labor and dad is waiting and ready to take care of baby.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Right, because if mom dies in labor and dad's ready, then dad's gonna be grieving and in the same soup in a way as the baby around that loss. And there's gonna be a kind of mirror or orientation point in that shared grief versus just cut ties cut and baby's now in a totally foreign environment.

Haley Radke: I just don't understand why Muggles, this is the term that Pam uses for non [00:19:00] adopted people for kept people. Why Muggles don't get that parents are not interchangeable.

Pam Cordano, MFT: It's like issues of privilege. It's like anything that is so normal to a person that it's not questioned. It's usually pain. Pain becomes the questioner, and then the people who are invisible or harmed by that invisibility start speaking up. And in a way that's what we're doing in this conversation is making space for something that is invisible.

Haley Radke: Right.

Pam Cordano, MFT: On a cultural level, which is super painful.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Pam Cordano, MFT: So if in that state of symbiosis, relinquishment happens, the baby has no way to hold inside their system. I exist. You exist because that hasn't been formed yet before the rupture. And so what then happens is the nervous system encodes [00:20:00] this experience of void and terror because that rupture creates that in the baby's body.

And that's the place of the nothing place, no self, no other, no continuity, no me, annihilation that, all that stuff. And then later on as we get older with our adoptive families, let's say our development overlays the ability to function. We go to school, we do what we do, we learn how to be a person that's functioning, but there's still this split consciousness inside of us where there's this more adult kind of competence or child kind of competence. Adult and there's still the body memory of non-existence deep inside of us. So we live with that split.

Haley Radke: I'm trying to take it in. I think just literally trying to understand that a baby doesn't know it [00:21:00] exists, right? That's a hard thing to get, but literally they can't know that yet. Because the, because of the developmental state, lack of development, yet it's very hard to understand that a baby wouldn't know they exist. And I know you said developmentally.

Pam Cordano, MFT: And that, that, that feels like death. That's a fear of annihilation. If I, am I dying? I'm dying. And not even am I dying, like it's like a, not the thought I'm dying, but the experience for the organism of I'm dying 'cause I just got chopped apart.

Haley Radke: And there's not the ability yet to say, oh, they went somewhere, they're coming back. It's just gone.

Pam Cordano, MFT: That doesn't even start being a biological possibility until they're at least six months old, the [00:22:00] beginning of being able to do that. So we just have to develop on top of this experience of being chopped apart and it feeling like death, and then we build coping on top of that to survive.

And then we become the people we become on top of all of that, and then we don't know why we're so anxious, or we have so much trouble in relationships, or we're terrified of being alone in the dark or throwing up or we get sick from all this stress in our bodies. We don't know what is going on that we are so screwed up and we think that it's like our, it's our fault or something's wrong with us and feel shame about it.

But this talking about the nothing place and describing the rupture during the time of symbiosis and what that does, which I could have known intellectually, but to see it on this client's face and then, and to experience it in my own system, all at once it landed and now we can talk about it. I, those of us who it's landing for, we can talk about it.

Haley Radke: Isn't this the [00:23:00] same as so many friends I've had, or even interviews we've mentioned like I feel like I fell outta the sky. Like feeling like you come from nowhere.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Like that terrible idea, that storks bring the babies to the new parents. It's no, like adoptees literally, a lot of us literally feel like that, like some random thing just dropped us outta the sky with the receipt.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. It's like we're, it's like we're a tree that we have to grow. We have to grow into a big tree with no roots. Like somehow there's no root system and then we don't know why we keep getting blown over or we don't like when kids are hanging on us and climbing us 'cause we're about to fall over anyway.

But yeah, it's that disoriented. There's no continuity in the nervous system literally. So the infant nervous system depends on co-regulation 'cause they're in symbiosis. Without it neural circuits for safety and orientation do not get laid down. The nothing place feels like non-existence because in brain [00:24:00] terms, there was never a scaffold for I exist in relationship to you.

And when I say there never was, even if the baby was kept by the birth mother for two weeks, they were still in symbiosis when the relinquishment happened. So they didn't, we have to keep thinking of the baby as being in symbiosis when they're under six months. And then, and what that, it doesn't matter in some way, if they got. A day or a, or two a month it's still happening in that time.

And polyvagal theory is really interesting in a super nutshell our dorsal vagal system, that's our collapse place. That's where the nothing place lives. It's in this dorsal collapse place. It's not even equipped to do fight or flight 'cause babies can't do fight or flight. They're, they can't even move and they don't even know that they're separate. They're stuck having to just go into collapse. This is where the nothing place lives. It's in the dorsal, vagal collapse place in our nervous systems. And then a stronger part that we can develop later is fight or flight so we can [00:25:00] actually make decisions about what, when do I fight, when do I do flight, but the happy place for all of us is in the ventral vagal system that's higher up and that's where we feel safe enough. We feel socially connected. We have our curiosity and creativity online. That's the good life times is in ventral vagal.

So with this rupture in our dorsal that lands in our dorsal vagal system as freeze and collapse, it's harder for us to get to a steady state of ventral vagal. It takes a lot of work and probably a lot of good fortune around, kind and tuned in people being with us later after we've come through all of this. Does that make sense?

Haley Radke: Just to be able to function.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. And to feel and to be comfortable functioning. Not shut down and then not in not dominated by fight or flight. More times rather than less times. That doesn't make sense. But to be less involved with fight or flight and shut down. And to have more of us available for ventral vagal, where [00:26:00] we actually feel good.

Haley Radke: So this is an upsetting thing that many people have said. They either report my case was, oh, she's colic, right? I cried nonstop all the time for no apparent reason, quote unquote. And then others report, oh, I was such a good baby because I never cried. So there's like always crying, never crying.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: That's either one. This collapse.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah, the never crying is really collapse and the always crying. There's still some energy to me. I think of the always crying is still trying to stay alive and not go because collapse the, like the freeze state. The freeze state if we stay there too long it's like a preparation for death kind of place.

Like freeze is a place that wants to figure out what do I do I fight or do I flee from danger? Freeze is danger. So if we can't [00:27:00] find a way to, to fight or flight, we're just sinking into this free state where it's like preparation for death. We can't, the parts of us to say frozen too long are parts of us that kind of just seem to go dead or get buried or turned off. They just stop being online. The crying part, I feel good about thinking of you crying like that in, in the sense that you're fighting for something. Like what can a baby do if they're trying to engage, trying to be known stay in the ring. Crying is maybe better than, crying is better than no crying.

It's not great. It's not good, but it's, it at least it's, there's an action involved with it. And who knows, maybe, I don't know. You're such an action person. You put things out in the world, you, you do that kind of thing. And I don't know, I don't know what I'm saying by saying that, but I'd rather see a baby crying than a baby who gave up crying.

Haley Radke: I just feel so like this. This is so difficult because I know all my adoptee friends, like this is what we [00:28:00] experienced. This is no one, nobody who would subject a human to this.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Torture. This is torture. Okay. Should we go to iFS?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Sure. So in, in IFS theory, the exiles most exiles hold feelings that are not fully acceptable or acceptable at all in the family. So it can be things like, shame or rage or pain, grief. Sometimes exiles hold positive feelings too. Let's say there's a mother that's jealous of the child might wanna shut down their joy or their how they can shine in the world so the mother doesn't get jealous. So that's, there's examples of exiles can hold good things too, like quote good things too that are just not allowed in the family to maximize love. The nothing place is a deeper exile than those kinds of exiles. The nothing place is an exile that holds an experience of non-existence itself. [00:29:00] So it's not just a part with feelings, it's the body memory of no self. No other 'cause it broke apart. And then what happens is protectors our protective systems, I'll say in adoptees work over time to cover up this abyss. And they do thing, over functioning, people pleasing, addiction, anger problems, reactive attachment disorder issues. Like whatever it takes to try to stay alive, stay afloat, and cope.

All of that's on top of this deep exile. And healing. Healing this, helping, this exile heal is not about fixing it at all. It's not asking it to come out and meet the land of the living in muggle terms. It's really us, and this is really a hard thing I'm gonna say, but it's us learning how to be just little bit by little bit with the terror and the overwhelm of the nothing place itself as a deep experience in our systems.

That's what [00:30:00] that's where we were before the stork suddenly brought us in, or we suddenly got, we arrived on spaceship from another planet. We were in this nothing place. So it's in there and the best thing we can do is start slowly to get to know it and we can talk about that, but, and also to be around either therapists or friends who have some capacity to also hang out with that.

We don't want a therapist asking us to be somewhere else when. That's really the ground of where we need to bear in our own systems to start to feel rooted.

Haley Radke: Using that word rooted. How many of us have gone to therapists or psychologists and you wanna deal with this, whatever issue that's going on for you, and they're always looking for the root. And when you deal with that, then that issue resolves. And so I get it. I see why that would be so critical to look at, but also because the terror is so deep, you really would have to be safe in order to look [00:31:00] at that. And I've, I know I've said this before, I don't know how accurate this is, but I really think our brains only show us like things that we're ready to look at.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Just to keep us safe.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. And I've said before on your show that this is one reason I'm a fan of psychedelic therapy because it does allow for getting access to places that our protective structures will not allow us to go into. And that's why talk therapy can take so long and be so frustrating because it's just we can't, our system is saying, no way are we going in that place. And that's why I'm a fan of psychedelic therapy and I hope that it gets legalized soon.

Haley Radke: There was so many episodes. I remember like from the, I think from the first season even, we were talking about how we have these boxes we store away in our closet and we just can't even open them because it's just too much.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. The terror. That's the word. But yet people knowing about this, I know you've had [00:32:00] a group of adoptees talk about this together when you were leading the flourish groups and just even knowing that there was something to name, it can reduce that.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Totally.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Pam Cordano, MFT: There's an upside. We're gonna talk about the upside of us even talking about this topic. Yes. Before this ends for sure. But yeah.

Haley Radke: Don't worry.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Don't worry. Hang in there. The nothing place exile doesn't just sit there quietly. It exerts a gravitational pull on the whole system.

And that's why that when there's stress or even intimacy in relationships, there's this gravitational pull that's freaking out. And this nothing place thing is a dynamic living part of us. It's not just, it's not a concept. It's not, symbolic. It's really a real thing that we have inside of us.

And I wouldn't have known that until I saw this client get there and then I felt like I got there. So when we feel fatigued or we have a conflict or we're in an [00:33:00] intimate situation this nothing place exile pulls forward and the system feels like I'm dissolving, I'm not here I'm gonna die. Like this whole I'm gonna die thing comes from this place. 'cause we did have that experience and that is the experience in nothing place. I'm gonna die. I'm getting annihilated right now.

Haley Radke: Is that equivalent to many of us, myself included having suicidal ideation.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Totally.

Haley Radke: Great.

Pam Cordano, MFT: It's also babies that are in orphanages who die even though they're, their physical needs are being met. They're, they are. They are. They go further. Those of us who have survived this, we didn't go as far into death as they, but I think it's a continuum of death. This nothing place place.

Haley Radke: So people who have this need met their whole life and identity is built on this strong structure and we just have this [00:34:00] gaping hole where the foundation should be.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. And sure there's, of course there's people that have all kinds of, they have drug addicted parents or they have violence in the home from the time they're born or they're getting really severely abused. Of course those things are like horrific for any human system, but there is a continuity of attachment even if it's really poor attachment and scary attachment or eventually disrupted attachment, there's a continuity with versus an entire break of the organism of symbiosis. It's different.

Haley Radke: So the gravitational pull to come back to the abyss is there. And if we're shaking or pushing some way. That can get triggered. Is that what I'm hearing?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. It does get and I think it does get triggered.

Haley Radke: It just does get triggered and whether we're aware of it or not,

Pam Cordano, MFT: yeah,

Haley Radke: okay,

Pam Cordano, MFT: We get triggered. We get triggered [00:35:00] and I can't imagine any trigger that doesn't somehow harken back to this nothing place for us in some way. It feels like we're talking about the ground floor of the adoptee system.

Haley Radke: This, maybe we should talk about this at the end, but what it's bringing to mind is how you've talked about adoptees as superheroes, right? And it just makes me so this is what gets me emotional. It just makes me so much more impressed with all of us who've made it and have, in any fashion we've made it and those that are working on trying to improve our lives and change things for our children and legacy and all of those things, like it just makes it all the more impressive.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Yeah. I think that for us, just living daily life requires a kind of strength and capacity. Even when life looks like a show, am I allowed to say show on your show?

Haley Radke: We are. [00:36:00] We will beep bad, but yes, you can say it, huh? Yeah. Okay. So the value of naming this is that we can work on it?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Okay. So here's what I see the value is it's validating. Like when I brought this to the flourish groups and there were, I don't know. 40 something people in the flourish groups. I think it was everyone, if not nearly everyone, really related to this in some way or another.

And to have something named for us when the culture doesn't name it and how could they is it can feel very validating. So it's, and it's also a way of saying you're not broken. Like whatever you think you look like compared to other people in life. If we have a way of understanding what we actually went through and we start all of us, carving out like language and understand shared understandings about it.

It just gives us another [00:37:00] way to look at our lives and what you just, when you got tearful about the superpower thing, it's, it is like that. It gives a perspective so that we can perhaps see ourselves with more and each other with more compassion and awe really, and horror awe. And also, it's so cool to find language for things that happened before language was built. It's almost as if in the culture, if we can't language it, it's not, it doesn't it, it isn't there. It's not real. But yet our nervous systems tell a story and for us to find ways to language it and find shared languaging it, it gives form to the formless.

And it also creates a sense of belonging. There's a paradox because this nothing place is literally a place where there's nothing. There's no you. There's no me. There's no up, there's no down, there's nothing. And yet, once we can find each other in the nothing place, even just start to find each other in the nothing place [00:38:00] paradoxically, it's grounding. We find, oh, there's some ground this the nothing place is a place. It's not, it isn't really a no place, it's a place, it's just a horrific place. But to be there together is different. So when this client got there and then I feel like I fell in, on accident, but I'm grateful I did.

It was comforting to him. It was comforting to me that we like, oh my gosh, we both, if we're both here, it's not the same as if I'm just alone there and hiding it from myself and reacting to try and to stay out of the, out of this deeper place. And then instead of being pathologized oh, you're avoidant, you're angry, you're resistant, you're ungrateful you're, you dissociate a lot, like all these labels that, that we can be thought of or called, or it's no we can witness.

In ourselves and in each other, the deeper truth of what, what's actually happening that isn't pathological at all and it has a chance to be actually reparative in that way. It's another story besides [00:39:00] that we're screw ups, defective. No wonder they gave me away. I'm such a, I'm an inherently defective person.

And then finally, I'll say this again, that the goal is not to erase this place. The goal is to learn to be with it without the panic or annihilation terror. To start chipping away at that so that we can actually just land here and feel that root system that's actually there, but I don't know that we can do it alone. I think we need each other to, that's why this shared language, I think that's why we're doing this episode is like we're trying to give language so we can all do this together.

Haley Radke: I don't know if you remember, if you've heard about this, we've talked about this maybe before, but you even said reactive attachment disorder before, which I'm just like, it's bs.

It's like a, it's like this stupid diagnosis for normal reactions to abnormal situations and this is what I'm thinking of. I'm like, oh, this having a nothing place [00:40:00] as a part of our origins. This is a normal reaction to an abnormal situation. This is normal for adoptees to feel this way because there is a gaping void in what should have been this be begin nice symbiosis, nice beginning with our mother and it's not available to us.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I know you know this, but I'm going to link in the show notes. We have many adoptees, including people from Flourish who wrote about the Nothing Place, and there's some poetry and just moments people have captured even about when you brought this idea to them and they write about it in The Flourish Experience we'll link to that and some other folks have blogged about it. So I'll have links to a few different folks in the show notes talking about this. Is there anything more you wanna tell us? If someone wants to start looking at this to possibly look in the scary place to acknowledge it, [00:41:00] what are first steps to do that in a safe way ?

Pam Cordano, MFT: That if people are comfortable being in their own company enough, they can just start trying it on. They could go for a walk and just give it a little thought like, what do I think or feel about this nothing place thing in flourish people recognized it immediately and some people were more sad or scared about it, and other people were really relieved, like viscerally relieved about it.

So there might be a whole bunch of different types of inter of reactions to it. But also I think that if people are in therapy, bringing it to their therapist or if they have friends who they trust or friends that are adopted that they trust, they could also start talking about it a little bit there.

I think it's it's almost like it's like soil and we can just start digging a little bit in the soil, but the goal is not to overwhelm 'cause it's a tender place. It's just to, it's just to start exploring whoever wants to.

Haley Radke: And do you have anything to say [00:42:00] to someone who might listen to this and just be like, oh my gosh, this is just made up. You guys are just feeling sorry for yourself. Not that we get those emails ever.

Pam Cordano, MFT: I don't really care about those people that much. I don't even feel ruffle. I feel like now that I know this place so much more it doesn't even. If someone wants to negate it, I like whatever. I just don't have any business with them.

Haley Radke: That's such a healthy way to look at it. And I think, truly, anytime I've talked to someone about this that's adopted, there's like an instant knowing. And for people who are adopted, but perhaps haven't started really deep diving it critically, this might not resonate and that's okay. Like

Pam Cordano, MFT: totally

Haley Radke: live your best life. Don't dig if you don't want to dig.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing this with us, Pam.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Haley, thanks so much for [00:43:00] being born actually, and keeping yourself alive, however you did that.

Haley Radke: I did it. I did. We both did it. And you are listening. You did it too. Way to go us. Way to go us.

Pam Cordano, MFT: That's right. It's a big deal.

Haley Radke: It is. And I hope this naming is more an encouragement to feel like, oh, I'm not crazy. There's nothing wrong with me. This is a normal reaction to a very abnormal situation.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah, if we go back to the black the black moon that's happening today and we go back to the deep exile name, what deep exiles or any exiles need is love and presence and so we can start building presence and love in for ourselves in this place and with each other, and that's what it needs. It doesn't need to do to get. To get moving and be different. It just needs love and presence to gently, slowly start coming to it [00:44:00] and that's when the light comes back.

Haley Radke: Beautiful. Thank you so much. You've been on the show so many times sharing your wisdom with us. We so deeply appreciate it. Truly, where can folks connect with you online?

Pam Cordano, MFT: By email pcordano@comcast.net.

Haley Radke: Lovely. Thank you. Thanks for celebrating my birthday with me.

Pam Cordano, MFT: I'm so excited. You asked me what an honor.

Haley Radke: I know I've said this before. I love Pam so much. She has helped me personally and so many of us by bringing language to the ethereal, the intangible of it all when we are trying to help ourselves understand what happened to us in the context of adoption separation. And our loved ones and [00:45:00] trying to explain to them like how it feels to be an adopted person existing in this world.

So I'm so deeply grateful to Pam. I'm also so grateful for all of my patrons. If you have felt value from Adoptees On, you can join our Patreon. You can search Patreon and quote Adoptees On, or go to adopteeson.com/community and folks can pledge monthly amounts or you can pay for a year and you get so many so many episodes of me and my friends talking about adoptee things. We also have the Ask an Adoptee Therapist events, which Pam is a part of occasionally. We also have Adoptees Off Script parties with Pam, and this fall we're starting a series of Adoptees Off Script parties where we are focusing in on the fight flight, fawn or freeze themes, and [00:46:00] so I know we're gonna be learning a ton more from her about those. So thank you so much for all of you who have supported the show in the past and those who will continue to do so and keep Adoptees On alive in this world. The other thing I know folks have been asking me about, and you will hear this fall more about my brand new podcast that I've been working on and you will. We'll be sharing more, I promise. So stay tuned for that. Thank you so much for listening, and let's talk again very soon.

306 [Healing Series] Money and Worth with Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/306

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to adoptees on the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. This is a special episode in our healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves. Today's show is also special because it's our last episode before our summer break, and I'm gonna tell you all about our other summer plans and some exciting announcements at the end of the show.

Before we get started though, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support [00:01:00] more adoptees around the world. Links to everything we'll be talking about today or on the website, adopteeson.com.

Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On. I was gonna count how many times you've been on, but I haven't so many. You might be the most, you might have the most Adoptees On episodes at this point. Anyway. Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, welcome back, Marta.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Hi Haley.

Haley Radke: Have you kept track? Are we at double digits yet?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think we're at double digits. I think I also have not counted.

Haley Radke: If you count Patreon. For sure.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: For sure. Yes. And there's some clips from the Patreon that are on the public.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's true. It's so true. So yeah, you're everywhere. Okay so speaking of Patreon, you come on pretty regularly.

We have a show once a month where we do Ask An Adoptee Therapist, and this was the [00:02:00] impetus for our conversation today 'cause someone submitted a question that kind of like. Lit off all the fireworks in everybody's brains because it just spiraled out into a bunch of different topics. The question was an adoptee finding out that she was not gonna inherit the same as her biological moms kept kids were, the will is different for her and the big feelings associated with that. And it just brought us all to thinking about adoptees and money. Like it's a big deal. Of course, everybody uses money and I'm curious what your first thoughts are on how does being adopted even shape our relationship with money?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think the relationship, first of all is just an interesting one. I worked with a money coach years ago in Seattle, and that was when I was doing exclusively work in the eating disorders world. [00:03:00] And something she said to me in one of our first meetings was so impactful, and I still think about it all the time and I share it with clients.

The biggest difference between like substance abuse and because we can have addictive behavior with food and with money is you don't need to take substances to survive. You can cut it out of your life completely. But if you have an unhealthy relationship with food or money, you have to figure it out.

You cannot live without having a relationship with food or having a relationship with money. So sometimes there's also an interesting dynamic there too, around the food and the money. Like maybe we were restrictive in one place and really out of control in the other, or vice versa. I just thought that was an interesting way to think about it and I think I know you've explored that a lot on the podcast. I feel like our relationship with food as adoptees and our relationship with our bodies, and so yeah, money is part of that really complicated relationship with like our brain chemistry, [00:04:00] the spending and the saving and then yes, of course there's the really essential piece of that our lives started with money changing hands, and how does that affect how we feel about ourselves as commodified people?

Haley Radke: Can we pause there because I think that's one thing that a lot of people really don't think about. Being commodified and money changing hands, and whether or not it was a, private a hundred thousand dollars adoption so you could get the race of child that you wanted or a public, adopt from foster care situation where maybe the adoptive parent is the one receiving money. Like money is happening. It's happening in all the situations. Someone is profiting, [00:05:00] whether it's the government or the agency or the adoptive parent and oh my gosh, I've seen so many people talking about the adoption tax credits and it's just so where's the therapy tax credit for us?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Then, of course tied into all of that in that moment and the money changing hands and like the salesmanship of the adoption agencies, like all of this really yucky pieces is also this idea that financially stable, quote unquote adoptive parents is such a piece of what makes them more qualified to raise us than our birth parents.

And I think that's also super complex because we do not all get adopted into wealthy families. Some families use every penny that they have, and then that child grows up with a [00:06:00] lot of financial difficulty and maybe even with the knowledge that like their adoption is part of what put the family into a rough financial situation to start out with.

And so I think there's this illusion that if someone has enough money to purchase a baby that they're a certain in a certain place. But I think as with all spending, right? Like we can all figure out how to spend a lot of money, that's not necessarily reflective of like how much financial stability or security we might have.

There are ways to get things that are out of your financial comfort zone. Out of your budget. I don't know. Words are failing me.

Haley Radke: I vividly remember talking with Renee from Saving Our Sisters. So as a charity that is promotes family preservation and helps moms in crisis get through that temporary time period of crisis. And I remember her telling me about [00:07:00] when she placed her son for adoption 'cause she was in a temporary financial crisis and then like later finding out. Like the differences in salaries between her, actually very well paying job and the adoptive family that adopted her son. And it was significant.

They were significantly lower. And I was like,

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes,

Haley Radke: okay. Like it's true. Like you don't know if you're like, you don't know where your child is gonna go.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay, so coming to terms with the commodification of it all, most of us don't think about that till later on. And so do you think that's like underneath, like that we have some idea of that subconsciously that is affecting she's nodding her head at me. Yeah.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. I, this is embarrassing story, but I'm gonna tell it because I think it's important. I had I think I had so much shame about it as a kid and so [00:08:00] much consciousness about it, and so much insecurity about my difference about being the only kid, like in my school, in my area that was adopted, that I weaponized, I turned it around, right?

Like we can often do whatever we're insecure about, we can turn it around and weaponize it. So when kids would tease me about being adopted or come at me about it, I would say you might not even have been planned, but I was bought and paid for.

Haley Radke: But I've heard that.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I know it's terrible and I'm embarrassed about it now, but I just needed something to feel better about and I think because there was so much shame about it, I like switched the narrative on it to try to feel empowered in some way to try to feel chosen, right? As the story had been told, I was trying to feel, wanted and chosen and special when actually I felt discarded.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And inhuman.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's really profound and okay. So I've been [00:09:00] on, I've been on, I'm back on TikTok because I'm using it to work on my new show. Anyway I've seen a lot of videos worth people talking about that like from a fully positive perspective.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes.

Haley Radke: It's like you see it, but you can't see it. Like you're almost there. You're almost there.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes.

Haley Radke: But you don't wanna pop their bubbles. Oh.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And then I think like how that unfolds over time, is this really sticky relationship with money as we get older, like the ways that money can be used as control around managing adoptees behavior starting, I think in like adolescence maybe with like control around allowances. If you step outta line, you don't get your allowance. And I think all of that, do some biological parents do that? Sure. But I think the way that it lands on us is different because money [00:10:00] already has this different weight around worthiness and so if adoptees are always like bracing to be abandoned, re abandoned, sent back, I think we're also bracing to be financially abandoned. And so these threats, I think they land different on us and create yeah, a complicated relationship into adulthood.

Haley Radke: This is what's coming to mind is this combination of that, the financial safety and the adoptee loyalty, so for people who don't know what that is, it's like you're obligated to be loyal to your adoptive family because of just those things, like as a teenager, are they gonna provide transportation for you? Are they gonna help you buy a car? Are they gonna help you pay for college?

If you start, you're probably thinking critically adoption about adoption [00:11:00] possibly. But if you start speaking out critically about adoption all of those things can be taken away.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes.

Haley Radke: And. I'm thinking of a bunch of different things. There's all kinds of scenarios, right? We see adoptees getting sent away to camps to change behavior becoming homeless, just kicked out. Like all of those kinds of pieces. So that can control and forced loyalty, whether or not that's really what they're experiencing. How do I put this? You know what I mean?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: The choice is, ends up being for, I think a significant portion of us is compliance or a lack of financial safety.

Haley Radke: Yep.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And that's a really brutal situation to be put in. And we all make our own choices around that. But yeah, I think I have known several adopted and trafficked people who are, who stay in [00:12:00] unhealthy dynamics because of the financial stability that it provides them. And I'm, I would never judge an adopted or trafficked person for whatever choices they're making that are safety based and they should not be in that situation to begin with.

Haley Radke: It's the yes and. It's like you're experiencing this, we get it. And you shouldn't have had to. Yeah. Okay. What are you seeing with clients? Have you have, do clients come and talk about money things with you?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Absolutely. Again, I think to the, for the food link, like it just, it touches everything and I think money is so linked to care, right?

I think there's a lot of dynamics where the only care people experience from their adoptive parents is financial, and so it does carry that meaning. Maybe if there's not a lot of attunement or emotional connection, but there is this financial help, then it comes to mean so much and then there can be like a hyper fixation on things [00:13:00] and like expensive things and different things like that.

I think I see a lot of, yes in the addiction realm, like overspending, compulsive spending, and it's that like seeking of the pleasure and the soothing. I think even around like buying, if you've never had a parent cook for you. Buying yourself, takeout or delivery can feel like that. You're giving yourself that care.

And again, which is, that's certainly something that I go to when I'm feeling not cared for. That's a way that I will care for myself. But it, of course, there's a line it can get really out of hand. And of course we want that, right? I think what is self care that doesn't involve money. It's a short list.

And so even when we're talking about taking care of ourselves, there's financial decisions being made in all of that all the time.

Haley Radke: That's the self-care without money. That's yeah, that great point. Deep breathing, [00:14:00] sit in the sunshine. Go for a walk.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Hot shower. But you do pay that water bill.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah, tell me how I know I have a teen son who really likes long showers. I've seen, I don't see the, I'm not a therapist, right? And I don't see clients, but I've seen so much of this in the adoptee community. Like I've seen the overspending the people who hoard just like total irresponsibility, and then also this piece of trying to be as successful as possible. And building wealth to prove worthiness.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And the fear is woven into that too, right? With the scarcity mindset. Yes. I cannot have enough money. I don't, yeah, like you said, the hoarding, I don't wanna spend any money. And that's about a lack of safety. And again, this association that we have with that more money can buy you safety, which sometimes it very literally can, that's not a, [00:15:00] that's not a feeling, that's a fact.

And yes, I think that there, because I think we don't think about it this way because of adoptions often happening in infinite, early childhood, but there's time in those timelines in all of our stories where we were houseless, where we were family less and houseless. Where we had no resource and no stability, and so that's in there deep.

And so we fear that even if as an adult you've never experienced houselessness, you, you may still have that fear like coded into your DNA. And so in a world that we're living in right now where housing abuse of housing costs has never been worse. The last few years I have had so many clients be in really rough housing situations.

I've been in some rough housing moments in the past couple years, and it, the trigger vibrates all the way down to the primal wound so [00:16:00] quickly.

Haley Radke: I never thought about it. But you're so right. All the people who were, even infant adoption, sometimes there's foster care in between. I was at the hospital for 10 days before I ever went home. Like there is a gap.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes.

Haley Radke: For a lot of people. Wow. Sorry, that sort of, just one more of those great light bulb moments from you. Okay. So one of the things the question that got asked initially, I'm gonna read it out here, and it touched a nerve for me because I have a personal experience of I remember this vividly, and I don't know if I was in reunion yet or not, but I was adopted by parents that were just a little bit older. And so my parents always [00:17:00] were, seemed older to me than anybody else's parents. And they're around the same age as my maternal grandparents, just to give a sense. Okay? And so I remember asking my adoptive mother at one point. Growing up as an only child. They were already retired at this point, and I just said, do you guys have current wills? Do you guys have a plan in place? Just literally Marta, the only, I was just asking because I thought, man, they're getting older. Who knows? And it's on me. And so

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes,

Haley Radke: I just want like, where can I find it? I'd like to know your wishes. It's pretty basic, so

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes,

Haley Radke: I've talked, even when I was young married person, I used to joke around with our friends saying we should have a funeral planning party just because you never know [00:18:00] and let's talk about it. Let's normalize it.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes.

Haley Radke: I remember I told you, I always thought maybe at some point I'd work at a funeral home. I don't know, maybe when I'm older. Anyway, I asked my adoptive mother, do you guys have current wills? She went to 10. Just shut down. She was angry that I asked, and then it was like, we are not talking about this. And then she gave me the silent treatment for awhile. Which is the same thing that happened when I got my second holes in my ears. Ear piercing. Yeah.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Oh my God.

Haley Radke: Anyway, so that's why this question hit a buzzer with me because I was like, it's not scandalous to talk about wills.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: No,

Haley Radke: We should know. It shouldn't be a surprise. And yeah, it's not, I don't know. Okay. Let me read this question that was submitted. Can we talk wills? I promise I'm not money grubbing, but this has me livid. I found out that my [00:19:00] bio mom has left her kept kids everything, and I won't get anything when she passes. Where is the equality? This could break our reunion, frankly. What is the ethical thing to do in this situation? I don't even know how to bring it up with her without sounding like I'm counting her money and waiting for her to die. Am I the only one? Tell me I'm not crazy. She doesn't know I know. And I think she's hiding it because she knows it's not fair or equal.

So I don't know if you wanna reiterate your answer to that question. Or if we should just talk about wills and this situation where it's not necessarily fair nor equal and you find out by surprise.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah, I think, at its core its not about the money. That being said, some people in these situations might really need again, right?

They might really need that resource. And so of course, maybe there is a piece of it, but I think emotionally, it's not about the [00:20:00] money. It's about am I a person to you? And so many adopted and trafficked people already feel so erased, right? Like they erase our birth certificates, like there, there's eraser from the beginning.

There's a erasure, culturally, socially, still about our truths, our stories. And so this is like yet another experience of am I not real to you? And I think whether we're talking biological parents or adoptive parents, it's still that trigger of am I a person to you? Am I real? Am I not worthy of being claimed? And of course, this is extremely painful to find out that you've been left out in any way.

Haley Radke: Have you seen people like, I've heard of this before, but like in an adoptive family where bio kids get one treatment and adoptive kids get [00:21:00] a different treatment. For example, I was just scrolling obituaries the other day again, showing my age and I thought there was one and it was listing off all the, the people that are still remain with us.

And then they're listed off the kids and then it said, and his adopted son so and and I was like, oh, wow. You even get an asterisk in the obit. Good for you. You got included but we know you're not equal.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think that yes, the treatment can go, I know we're talking wills, but I think it can start way before that. Like that biological kids get down payments for their first homes and adopted kids get to pay their own way through undergrad. Like I absolutely have seen those situations where the treatment financially way before we're even talking wills is completely different.

Haley Radke: What do you do? What do you do? Do you speak up for yourself? Do I don't even [00:22:00] know.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Of course, I'm pro using your voice and there are points where that's doesn't matter anymore. You know where people have already tried and there's a point right where we can't change the other people. So I think to go back to the wills piece, I think it's absolutely worth a conversation and trying to express the emotions first, the feelings first. This is how this landed on me. You know what's going. What's going on for you? I think with the birth parent piece specifically, there's an extra complex layer of whatever their shame is, right? Or fear, I think that birth parents can have a lot of fear about what their other kids will feel, not just about us returning, right?

Like that reunion moment and having to tell them most likely for the first time, like I had a pregnancy, I had a child, right? All of that. I think there's so much shame, but then I think that still courses forward in the dynamic and so I don't know. I'm wondering if [00:23:00] this birth mother felt like not able not that she thought it was right but maybe she felt unable to say not only all of this, not only have I lied, not only am I this, whatever the negative story is in her mind, but also now you get less because your sibling came back. And I don't know I just think it's a lot more complicated than just what we see on the surface, right? Or when we personalize it, it's just more complex.

And so can we ask in that moment, can you tell me about this decision? Because I'm hurting and I don't understand.

Haley Radke: It's so complicated. Because it's not just about your relationship with them either 'cause it does impact the others as well. Yeah. That's tricky. So tricky. So what would it do to someone if they really have [00:24:00] that happen? Where they're just excluded from the will and they had a good reunion for, 30 years, whatever you think you're in, everything's good. And you're just not.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think like this person said it, it could be a breaking point. It could, because it could be that painful, it could be that wounding.

I think it, it would bring in doubt, if it had been a quote unquote good reunion that whole time of, what has this all been and what do I really mean to you? Where do I belong in your life? Do I have a place in your life?

Haley Radke: Okay, so let's talk a little bit more, more about reunion. I remember early, an early on episode that you and I talked about this, and I don't know how much made it to air, but I think some of it did. But talking about reunion in international countries, sorry, for international adoptees who are in reunion, who may be asked for money from their adoptee, especially if they're in an impoverished [00:25:00] nation.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: So yeah, I don't love that language impoverished countries isn't sitting so well with me. I would prefer something like countries economically crushed under global colonialism and white supremacy because there is an intergenerational legacy of abuse that results in the financial hardships of these countries that most transnational adoptees come from that have been ex so exploited for whatever valuable resources remain. That also includes babies.

Haley Radke: Such a good point. Yes. Thank you for the correction. I think a lot of people didn't know that in South Korea, for example, like one of their main economic boons was international from international adoption, and if folks listen to, you haven't heard this yet, but the [00:26:00] episode that will be out just before this one, we're talking with adoptees who were adopt one was adopted from Chile to Sweden, and she's telling us about there were Swedish social workers that like lived in Chile in order to export these kids out to Sweden. A wealthier at the time nation, yeah. It's complicated.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: And I think it's easy to judge Korea for being the largest exporter of babies, and why were they in that situation in the first place? If you look further back in that country's history, there's a reason that they were in that position in the first place. And so the, coercion that we talk about with birth moms, like that all happens on a global level as well, on a country to country level. And so I would say that any country that has an international transnational adoption trade has been, has suffered under the weight of global colonialism in some way. [00:27:00] And so then if we zoom back into the individual real quick, what does that do to us? Transnational, transracial adoptees when we're in reunion and there maybe is financial hardship is suffering in our birth family.

Some of us don't have the means to help, and actually I think that's more concrete and can be simpler as far as, I just, I really can't help you. Where is it when maybe we can, but maybe we're not comfortable. Maybe we don't feel safe, meaning. How do you trust in the fact that if you don't give the money that the people will still be around and even if you give it freely, it's care.

We talked to us earlier in the episode. There's an association with money and care. So what is it as an adult, adopted, trafficked person to provide [00:28:00] care for people that did not care for you? And how do we make peace with that? It's just all extremely complicated. I'm moving through so much of this myself right now.

Having moved home to Columbia, my mother's health is not well. She has had a tremendously difficult life. She worked harder then maybe anyone I know sacrificed her body. That's what's going on with her health right now. Quite literally, like she sacrificed her body for years working on her hands and knees, cooking, sewing, sleep deprivation, like so many sacrifices just to keep my siblings clothed and fed. And now at this stage in her life, her health is so bad that she cannot work. How is that fair? What is she supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? Just watch her suffer. But also, I am a 38-year-old child, [00:29:00] free by choice woman that chose financial independence for a reason.

I have financial independence that my female ancestors could never dream of, and now I'm taking on this responsibility for my mom. Not all the time, but when she's with me, I'm 100% financially responsible for her and the emotions that have come with that, even though I have clarity of thought. And clarity of heart about what I wanna do.

That doesn't mean that there's not younger parts of me screaming and flipping out about how unfair, but what is the concrete solution? Sometimes there isn't one, and again, we're back to this injustice that I think is at the center of so many adopted and trafficked feelings of the intense injustice from the individual level to the community level, to the country level, to the global level, right? It just billows out and who gets [00:30:00] crushed at the center of it.

Haley Radke: I just thought we were just taking a really light subject. No, it's not light, but, okay. So we've really set up all the hard, the complicated, all the things for folks. How can we set up and build a sense of financial safety, abundance confidence with money decisions now, if those are things that we're struggling with?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah, I think also what was our financial education? What did it look like in the families we were raised in? Was there any, or was money one of those things that was not talked about? And again, I'm like still on injustice of course, because it's not fair that if you did not receive any financial education either in your home or in school.

I could also rant about that, how we, that's [00:31:00] not part of our education and even those of us sometimes with like advanced degrees, it was never part of it. No financial training, no business training. That it's, yeah. Like we don't have enough things to do around our healing, but I do, I would advise adopted and trafficked people to seek some education if you don't feel financially literate to seek out some education around that, whether that's like reading a book or listening to podcasts or hiring a coach or whatever that looks like. Because I do think we're at risk to have an unhealthy relationship with money and we deserve security and safety.

Haley Radke: What are like one or two things that we can do just as practice. I'm thinking like how do we teach ourselves that it's safe, we're in charge of it. [00:32:00] Those kinds of things even be it. Making with making decision making, just like how you were explaining your situation with your mom right now. Like how do you set yourself up for success with, okay, I know I'm able to do this and this is my boundary, any sort of things like that, little advice, things you can give on that.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: It's a little giant one, right? Do you know how much money you have? Do you know what's coming in and coming out? A lot of us have shame about even looking directly at those numbers, and I think technology makes it easier than ever to look away. If you don't want to, we just go click bing.

We click a button, or we like tap and it's all, and none of it's real. And so a first step, and this was my first step years ago when I did money coaching, is to look into the numbers, to literally sit and look at them and confront whatever comes up about that.

Haley Radke: Be in reality. [00:33:00] Let's welcome you to reality. Yep. Yeah. Okay.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. Yeah.

Haley Radke: That's great. And there's so many things about budgeting and there's so many resources about that, that doesn't have to be anything adoptee related, but if you're struggling more in this area, I think it'd be a great thing to dig into with your therapist.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Take it to therapy and because there are so many emotions involved, and then I think my other advice would be my classic Marta advice, which is don't be alone with it too. Like I've had a lot of clients that have the big shame triggers around money. All these things seek support from loved ones. If looking at those numbers is overwhelming, can someone who loves you sit next to you while you do that and help you regulate your nervous system while you confront the reality of whatever's going on?

Haley Radke: I'm working on this new show and I'm about to need a bunch of [00:34:00] money, so it's really stressful to ask for people to help when you're so used to doing everything by yourself and being fully independent and just, yeah, it feels very difficult to ask for help. But.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I think that's such an important piece. They're highlighting too, around the triggers around all of this, which is like if we do get ourselves into rough financial situations, like how much powerlessness comes up, right? And powerlessness is again one of those feelings that vibrates right down to the primal wound. And I think, we know adopted and trafficked or not. People can make really extreme decisions when they feel out of control financially. It's a high risk factor to have.

Haley Radke: All right, so we welcome you all to be in reality with us. Thank you so much, Marta. I really loved your original answer to this [00:35:00] question, so we're gonna cut it and we're gonna put it at the very end of the show.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay.

Haley Radke: For people to listen to so they can hear our hot takes.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I don't remember what I said.

Haley Radke: Oh it was great, and I had some great observations too, so we both, we just both come out on top.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay. Great.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't really remember either. But we're gonna, we're you'll, you're gonna hear it very soon, right away.

But first, I know you're doing lots of amazing things. Now that you have relocated and are doing all this online work, where can people connect with you, hear what's coming up for you?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: So I do have a public Instagram now it's Sierra, S-I-E-R-R-A, dot speaks dot verdad, V-E-R-D-A-D. That's truth in Spanish. You can follow me there. And there's information on the groups that I'm running and probably will continue to add some more new groups this coming year, so stay tuned. That's a great way to just be in the know if you are interested in groups with me and my practice [00:36:00] email is also on my Instagram, which is also on the Adoptees On website, but that's martasierralmhc@gmail.com.

And I have three groups that are taking members. I have a wait list right now for a second cohort of navigating transnational reunion, a therapeutic support group for transnational adult adoptees, currently navigating transnational reunions where you travel back and forth and your heart is in two places at once.

That time is TBD, because I'm gonna wait till the cohort fills and get everybody's consent on a time, but a weeknight. Sometime between 6:00 to 8:00 PM Eastern Standard is probably generally where that will land. All my groups are $25 via Venmo. I also have room in my homecoming group that's a therapeutic support group for transnational adult adoptees currently living in their homelands or planning to move back either temporarily or permanently.

So that group is running, so that's Mondays [00:37:00] 6-7:15 Eastern Standard biweekly. The other one's biweekly as well. So I have room in that for new members. And then I'm starting up Liberation and Abolition Group. That's a therapeutic support group for adult survivors of adoption, adoptees of color, currently navigating the terror of trying to survive under empire who are oriented towards liberation and abolition in all forms. To be in community together and raise our voices against oppression. This is an affinity space for people of the global majority and an open process group. And that is Thursdays 6-7:30 Eastern Standard Time biweekly. Come join us.

Haley Radke: Okay. That is amazing. I love that you have those and so needed and the wait list, like of course Marta's an expert in all these things and I know that she can help guide many of you through as an expert through really challenging circumstances that you're navigating yourself and have navigated. So thank [00:38:00] you. What a gift to our community. Thank you so much for your wisdom, Marta.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Thanks Haley.

Haley Radke: What a pleasure to get to talk with you.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Always great to chat. Thanks, Haley.

Haley Radke: I've been waiting to ask you this question. This is my most anticipated question for you. Okay?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Okay.

Haley Radke: Finally, someone said it out loud.

Can we talk wills? I promise I'm not money grubbing, but this has me livid. I found out that my bio mom has left her kept kids, everything, and I won't get anything when she passes. Where is the equality? This could break our reunion, frankly. What's the ethical thing to do in this situation? I don't even know how to bring it up with her without sounding like I'm counting her money and waiting for her to die. Am I the only one? Tell me I'm not crazy. She doesn't know that I know, and I think she's hiding it because she knows it's not fair or [00:39:00] equal.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Ugh. Yeah I was glad to see this question too. I think that it, yeah. A lot of people aren't maybe talking about it like, I love the start, right? Can we talk about this?

Yes, we could talk about it. Of course. We could talk about it. And I think issues around inheritance on both sides, on adoptive and biological sides are huge triggers. Everybody has a lot of feelings about it. And the biggest, I think. I don't wanna say mistake, but misunderstanding about it is that it's about the money.

And I think because of that's why there's silence around it. And why people don't wanna talk about this topic in public or in front of other people because it sounds like it's about money. 'cause we're talking wills and we're talking inheritance, but it's not about money at all. If you're adopted, it's not even about the money. It's about belonging, respect, feeling seen, feeling acknowledged, mattering to the other people and equality as she said, and about being an equal [00:40:00] with whether that's other siblings or other family members, whatever it is. So I just, again, for anyone struggling with this, I just wish for you to wrap your feelings and compassion and shake that shame off because this isn't, it's not about money. Our feelings about money are linked to feelings about care. So it's a really emotional topic, truly. And I think, my advice and around bringing this up would be to go to, to stay in that, to stay in the feelings, not the why am I not getting anything, but why did you decide this?

Can you tell me about that? Because I feel really hurt. The impact of finding this out and finding it out not from you, is that I don't matter and, and I would just like to know a little bit about your thinking and your feeling around it. Versus why did you leave me out? Really going to like what?

Because as I often say when we're talking [00:41:00] reunion stuff it's so easy to make assumptions about why someone did what they did or didn't do, what they didn't do, and it's just can be a lot more complicated and most likely. Fear is driving decisions. So if this person really wants answers, what, how much curiosity can they bring to this conversation of, I'd love to know like why you decided this, if you can tell me a little bit about it.

Because I feel really hurt and I feel really confused and really overwhelmed and I don't wanna feel any of those ways. But the impact of this on me was feeling like I'm not as important as your other kids. And. I am gonna imagine that's not how you want me to feel. So can you tell me a little bit about why you did this?

Haley Radke: Also sometimes when we hear secondhand information, it's not always accurate, so I'm not saying that in this case, but.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: No, I love that. That's a great point Haley. Is this true? That's a great place to start.

Haley Radke: Yeah. People love stirring up drama when [00:42:00] bio or adopt,

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: especially around this topic too. Yes.

Haley Radke: Sure. Yeah. And if you have a falling out, maybe you won't get anything like,

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: yes

Haley Radke: it's a, you don't always know what people's intentions are.

Okay, friend. This is our last episode until we'll be back in September with brand new episodes for you. In the meantime, there's lots of bonus content over on our Patreon, which also will be still going through the summer. So if you wanna join us for a book club, ask an adoptee therapist, our adoptees off script parties. Just come. We would love to have you. It's, we're a good time, I promise. And if you think I can't filter myself on the main feed here, you'd be surprised of the things I say on off script. I'm surpris, I'm surprised of the things I say on off script. [00:43:00] I would like to share with you my exciting news. I'm actually not taking a vacation this summer.

Instead, I am full in working on a brand new podcast. You may have heard me talk about this show before the hopes and dreams for this project. You have likely heard me talk about why I make you know, biweekly episodes instead, it's because I've been working on this project in the background for all this time.

Which has meant a lot of brainstorming, connecting with people, team building lawyering, all kinds of logistical adulty things, if you will. I am so excited and passionate about this project. I believe that it's our turn to tell everyone about [00:44:00] adoptions impact on adoptees and birth first parents, and so we are making the podcast to do just that.

If you want to stay informed and up to date on what we are doing, you can go to onadoption.net. It has a newsletter, sign up. And we invite you to join our newsletter list, you'll be the first to know if we're looking for guests, you wanna be a part of it. If you're looking to get involved in some way, the opportunities will first show up on that newsletter.

And we also have our social media going on Instagram @onadoption. I hope to bring you many more great updates, but right now I'm in the midst of recording with some very special mothers who've placed child for adoption [00:45:00] and they are bearing their souls and it is really difficult work and so important, and I can't wait to be able to share this with everyone because it's so deeply important.

Family preservation is just a deep passion of mine. I know it is of many of yours. And so we also are starting a new nonprofit that's called Adoptees for Family Preservation, and we're gonna tell you more about that soon as well. So many huge things happening. Thank you for being a part of it.

And whether you're supporting Adoptees On Patreon listening to the episodes, sharing them with your friends, any of those things, you are helping this ecosystem stay alive and well. And I thank you for it. Thank you for prioritizing [00:46:00] adoptee voices. Thank you for listening. Let's talk again very soon.

305 Maria Diemar and Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/305

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. We have two incredible adoptee activists with us today. Maria Diemar and Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom, both adopted to Sweden, joined up to elevate adoptee causes in some very impactful ways. Maria is the subject of Lisa's latest graphic novel, The Excavated Earth, which exposes a horrific story of how thousands of Chilean babies were literally kidnapped and stolen to be sold for adoption to Sweden and many other countries.

You won't believe some of the shocking [00:01:00] details that Maria and Lisa share with us today. Lisa also shares a few thoughts with us on the recent findings of the South Korean Truth and Reconciliation Commission. These ladies are amazing. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome two guests to Adoptees On first, Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom, welcome back to the show.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Thank you. Hi. So nice to be here again.

Haley Radke: Oh, it was so good to see you, Lisa, and for the first time. So excited. Maria Diemar. Welcome Maria.

Maria Diemar: Hi. Thank you.

Haley Radke: I'm so excited to talk to you ladies. We're gonna start a little differently. I know I always ask about what your story is. How did you guys connect? [00:02:00] You were both adopted to Sweden from different countries, but how did this friendship bloom for you?

Maria Diemar: Yeah. Resources online about other cases, and I found Lisa's book Palimpsest and I read it and then I emailed Lisa and we started from there. Yeah,

Haley Radke: Palimpsest says, as an aside, such a gorgeous book. If you haven't read it, I mean you're missing out. So you emailed Lisa. And Lisa, did you know about the stolen Chilean children?

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yes. Yeah. 'cause I, of course, as an activist, I followed the news closely about everything going on in the adoption world.

And I had heard about stolen children in, within Chile before the new, the big news broke about the international scandals. So I was following the news, and then when the news broke in Sweden was early 2018, I actually organized the first adoptee led [00:03:00] demonstration in solidarity with the Chilean adoptee to make the government act on the news, basically.

Yeah. So I was very upset in my corner. But yeah, I didn't know Maria Diemar at the time, but then you, Maria formed an organization for Chilean adoptees, and then we connected. So I was really happy to be asked to be involved and see what I could do to help you.

Haley Radke: Maria, if you're comfortable, would you mind sharing a little bit of your story? Because you didn't always know that you were stolen from the, your country of origin.

Maria Diemar: No, exactly. So I was born in 1975 in southern part of Chile, and I wa I always knew that I was 10 weeks when I came to Sweden and back then it was a, what do you call it? It was a dictatorship in Chile. And the future adoptive parents were asked not to travel to Chile to get the kids.

They were told [00:04:00] to stay in, in Sweden and that we, the kids were going to arrive to Sweden and they could pick us up at the airport. And it sounds so terrible when I say it, but yeah. That's like 1975. Yeah. So I came to my adopted parents in Stockholm, in Sweden where I grew up and with the story that my mom was poor and that she couldn't take care of a child.

And I think I was, they were always very open about the adoption and it was very obvious that I was adopted like Lisa and other people from other countries. It's very obvious that we are not like Swedish people back then. So they always talked about like my background, what they knew. And when I was 10, I think it wasn't until I was 10 I realized, or I understood like the documents that said that I had an older brother in Chile.

So [00:05:00] that's why when I started to think about I have to go back because my mom is there and my older brother is there, so I have to go there. So my life, I started focus on, I have to learn Spanish, I have to study about Chile, what is Chile? And it was like a very big thing for me to understand that as a 10 or 11-year-old.

And I always knew like I wanted to look for them, but I didn't know how. So it wasn't until I finished high school when I was 19, I started my search. And back then you had, as an adoptive person you had to contact the adoption agency that brought you to Sweden, and I can mention that in Sweden there was like one big, like it's the second largest adoption agency in the world.

They handle 30,000 cases of children from abroad, [00:06:00] and we had to contact them and pay them money to get information that they had received about us. So still today they have my birth certificate, for example. I don't have it, I have a copy, but we have to ask them for that information. So I did and I paid a little money and I had to wait and after one year they told me that they couldn't help me.

They told me that I had to go to Chile on, on, on my own and to search for my story over there. So of course I couldn't go directly because it's a long trip, a long journey, and it's cost a lot of money. So I studied and I worked extra, different jobs. And I traveled to Chile and I stayed there for almost three months because I wanted to learn the language better and to get to know my country.

And I decided also, okay, I will go to Southern Chile and look for my mom [00:07:00] and brother. And, but the thing was, in Chile I had all the information, like I had to go to the courthouse where the like where it was decided that I was going to have Swedish foster parents because I realized that I wasn't adopted in Chile.

I was a foster child that left Chile to Sweden, and I was adopted in Sweden when I was six months old. And I went to the court to get information about my background. I thought that they were going to receive me with open arms and give me the address to my mom, but they hold my information. Like the secretary that I was meeting up with, she hold my file and said that she couldn't show it to me because I was adopted. And then from there I started to go to the orphanage where they told me, the adoption agency told me that I had been at this orphanage. I went there, they told me I was born at a certain hospital. So I [00:08:00] went there and everywhere I went, like the door closed. I was welcome. They talked to me, but they said there is no, like no registers, there is no information, there is nothing.

So when I returned to Sweden after three months in Chile, I felt like I, I don't exist in Chile. It was so strange, but I was even more determined that I have to find my story. I have to find out, where is my mom and where is my brother and, but it took me seven years. And after seven years, I, by coincident got in contact with back then she was studying her last year to become journalist, a woman called Ana Maria Olivares.

And I mentioned her name because she became a friend. But back then in 2003, she helped me to locate my mom. And it took her like one week, not even one week, five [00:09:00] days, to find my mom and then her uncle that lives in the same area went to visit my mom and to tell about your daughter is looking for you.

So that was in 2003 and I received like a very long email from the man that went to visit to went to my mom's house and talked to her and he said like that he had met my mom. He also sent me a picture, but that she told him that she never gave me up for adoption. That I was taken from her. And back then it was, I had never heard about stolen children or children that had been like forceful, forcefully taken from their mothers in Chile.

So I didn't know what to think and I was thinking about it and I contacted the adoption agency and I asked them like, why is my mom telling me that I was taken from her? And they [00:10:00] told me, but, oh, don't think about that. That is common. Like the mothers, they do that, they don't want to feel guilty for having, leaving their babies up for adoption.

So no, it's nothing. And I had this feeling I didn't know, I didn't know that woman. I didn't know my mom, but still, this is what she told me through this man. And, but I thought, with time I will, learn the truth. But it took me 14 years before I could, with help of a third person that finally could tell me about like the context, like what happened in Chile.

This is, this was not, just one child or two children that were abducted it. It's thousands. So by, so in 2017 I could finally understand it, but from two th 2003 up to 2017, I had been to Chile several times. I [00:11:00] had met siblings, I had spent time in, in Chile, but still, I couldn't process this information because that wasn't what I have been, told.

Haley Radke: So you have this, the idea in your mind, right? That you're like she's saying you were taken, but

Maria Diemar: yeah.

Haley Radke: Not really. That's just what she's saying to. I don't know psychologically deal with losing you or something.

Maria Diemar: Yeah, but the thing is like growing up in Sweden, you believe so much in the system. You believe so much in like paperwork, like papers. They are the truth. And in the paper it's said that she gave me up for adoption.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: But it's also the, that's the story we are told, not just from our parents but from everywhere in Sweden. The narrative that we have been rescued and that our mothers gave us up is so prominent and so strong and at Adoptionscentrum that Maria mentions that adoption agency, they have so much power and they also, they own the [00:12:00] story of adoption.

So you know, you are up against so much and when you, because the thing that Maria tells about understanding what happened to her or being told what happened to her, it sounds very similar to what I went through when I discovered the truth about my adoption. And I started asking around and people just said that I was crazy because I was like maybe you are an exception and you write to the authorities and to the agencies and they tell you no, this is it's just what the mothers are saying because they feel guilty.

And they even said that on national television and they keep saying it today, even after everything that's been discovered. So of course you think you're one case or that you're crazy, but that's the thing now, when all these investigations are opening up and like with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Korea and lots of other commissions, and like for me, I discovered that I was a paper orphan and I had to Google it and I ended up with [00:13:00] no answers. No one knew about this. And now when you look at the term paper orphan. Everybody knows about it. It's become an established term.

Haley Radke: And just so people know what that means.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah. Sorry. It's in my case, it's, I have known living parents, but I also have an official documents assessed that I have an unknown background. And I was, I'm an orphan in the true sense of the world. I have no parents, no living parents. I'm an orphan, but that's just a complete lie of falsification, which was needed to make me adoptable.

Haley Radke: Sure. So So it's like full societal gaslighting of all adopted people and both of you

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Have completely falsified paperwork to do with your adoptions.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And you're not the exception.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: That we grew up believing and our parents grew up believing it and the whole society. Yeah, supported that idea.

Maria Diemar: And I think also because [00:14:00] as an adopted person, you understand like when you finally find your family and you start a relationship, it's a lot of things going on and like to getting to know like siblings and it's a lot to deal with and it's easier to deal with the happy feelings.

Oh, I'm getting to know people like I'm related to, by blood and all of that. It was easier to focus on that than to focus on like the hard stuff. So like Lisa said, also with the papers, I never said that, but in my case. When I started to look through and when the journalist in Chile explained this to me that, but look at your birth certificate.

You have a Swedish name. So in Chile I'm registered as Ingegerd Maria Olsson Karlsson, and the same as Lisa. I don't have, I don't have parents. I was, only, I just existed one [00:15:00] day or the 18th of August, I suddenly existed in Chile with a Swedish name and in Chile now I know, but I didn't know back then in 2003, but I have always existed in Chile. Like I never left the country. So I have a, like my, like here you have the social security number or id, so I have a Chilean id. I can vote, I'm a citizen. I can just go to the consulate where I live and ask them to renew my passport or my, ID like my identification card.

So it's like I never left. Now I can see that, but who, no, no one could explain that to me back then. So we have more facts today and it's easier, I, when I can, there's this page in Chile where you can search, if you look at your birth certificate and the name you have on that paper, if you search for that on this page, you will have the information of an [00:16:00] address and you will have your number.

And it's insane if, but we didn't know that until, today or seven years ago. So it's a lot of, it's more accessible. Like you have more information accessible today through, internet and and also by people actually knowing about this. But back then, more than 20 years ago, it was very different. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. I hope this isn't too in the weeds, but are you saying there was like two, I'm just gonna use Maria's, but two Maria documented, like there was a Maria that stayed and is a citizen, and then there's the falsified Swedish named Maria who left.

Maria Diemar: No.

Haley Radke: Is that what they did? Or There was, it was always just, you appeared as Swedish Maria, and that's, and there was no record of you leaving.

Maria Diemar: Exactly. [00:17:00] So the second so for me, for one group of people, we were registered with Swedish names, and I can also mention that I, in the court in Temuco where I was given Swedish foster parents in that court, they had. I don't know how many application from Swedish parents that were looking for children.

So what they did that they took, a couple from, papers from the court and they found children and they registered the children with the names that the Swedish parents wished their future child to be called. So I was registered with my Swedish name before the foster parents in Sweden knew I existed.

So I have read like my mom, my Swedish mom, her notes about me, and she learned about my existence one week after I was registered with her and her husband's [00:18:00] names. So that happens to some, and some some have two or three identities in Chile because I was stolen from my mom at birth, so she never saw me, she never hold me at the hospital.

I was carried away by a social assistant. But normally, like a mom in Chile, give birth to the child and she gets this note from the doctor or from the midwife that on this day, this mom, this woman gave birth to this child. And after a few weeks, the mother can walk with the child to the, what do you call it?

To the registers to register the child and then you make this birth certificate. But in my case, and for many others that were stolen, it was made this document would help or witnesses. So two men, they, signed a paper that I was this baby with a [00:19:00] Swedish name and they signed that paper, and then I suddenly existed in Chile, like someone without parents.

But now when I know about all this, I can see in the documents from the court that, that my mom is mentioned, her name is there, but in so she could decide to give me away and so I could be sent to Sweden. So there, they mentioned her name, but in my birth certificate she doesn't exist. So it's very convenient that she can exist in some documents and in others not. So in Chile they only decided that I, the court in Chile only decided that I can leave the country and that I can travel to foster parents in Sweden.

So I was never adopted in Chile. It happened in Sweden and they didn't send the papers back or something so we never left the country. So it's it, I [00:20:00] think they talk about 20,000 children and even more, but that they know of have left the country, but they don't know where all children are.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: It's so similar to Korea.

Haley Radke: That is like any normal person listening to that. It's gotta be like, that is bananas.

Maria Diemar: Yeah.

Haley Radke: It that, my gosh, you guys could see my face. I'm just getting madder and madder now okay.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: But that's the thing, when you start actually listing it like that, 'cause you're so used to, to talking about certain aspects of adoption, but when you actually start listing what really happened, it's absolutely insane. And it's so obviously criminal.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Because the Swedish adoption agency is still trying to pretend that it was all on Chile, that they can admit that maybe they were, the system wasn't great, but they had nothing to do with it. But the fact that Maria had a Swedish name in a birth certificate when she left before she even had [00:21:00] been assigned parents and adopted by them. It's a crazy gamble to begin with, but it's also, it's proof that Swedish people were there on location making these decisions 'cause she couldn't have gotten the Swedish name by a Chilean person. It's a very specific Swedish name too. I could say. It's quite traditional, so it's not just something you would pick up from a book, make up like, oh, this sounds Swedish.

It's a proper Swedish name. So it's proof that they were there, they were acting knowingly and they still tried to pretend oh no, this was all Chilean the Chilean responsibility.

Haley Radke: Colluding. Big time. Lisa, can we just talk a little bit about like most of our listeners probably are quite familiar with Korean adoptees because there's so many of you.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah.

Haley Radke: So can you just, but can you just do a little history on Korean adoption, like the reasons, and like some of this nonsense of course was happening there too, just because I want Maria to contrast that with what was happening in [00:22:00] Chile at the time. Like I'm talking about macro level reasons why Korean was exporting other babies.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: I do a super brief summary 'cause we can talk for a long time, but Korea had been through a devastating war between 50 and 53. So it left a lot of actual, real orphans and there were a lot of foreign aid workers and a lot of presence of foreign soldiers, mainly US soldiers who were there.

And they could see the plight of the children basically. And that's when people who were worried about these kids, what was gonna happen to them. And some had been were the result of relationships between US soldiers and Korean women. So I think it was we can say that it started with the US that there, there was a evangelical couple there called Harry and Bertha Holt, who started bringing real orphans over to the US and basically marketing them.

Look, we're [00:23:00] taking care of these poor children from Korea who are left orphaned. And you could also do the same thing. So it is, it's basically a campaign for parents to, or people who want to adopt a child to get their own Korean. And then it became so popular that's how the industry started.

But the real orphans run out quite quickly. It's just like in Chile that they started the demand was so high, so they had to find another way to produce orphans. And that's when coercion started and actual theft and kidnapping and the falsified paperwork. But on the Korean side, this was also an opportunity for them to rebuild the country.

I don't know if you've heard this description of Korea, but it's called the economical wonder because they rebuilt the country so quickly and became one of the richest countries in the world quite quickly, quite drastically. So you can compare to other countries that [00:24:00] were on the same level of poverty after the Korean War, and then how quickly they rose from that compared to other countries.

So we're in the similar situation, and my body is part of that, that they built their wealth on my body and possibly up to 250,000 other people. But the numbers vary. Just like in Chile, a lot of the adoptions were registered and they were dodgy and under the table. So the official figure is lower, it's lower than 200,000, but usually 200,000 people as a number that it's shared.

So through this, they got a lot of American dollars coming into the country, but they also saved lots and lots of money on social welfare. So they didn't need to build up a social welfare system for themselves 'cause they could just send us off. And just like in Chile, it was also, and after all the insanity that was going on, then there was a military dictatorship for [00:25:00] many years that ended in 87.

So it was a military rule quite a long time in Korea. The human rights abuse were prominent just like in Chile. And this is one thing that Maria and I keep coming back to when we talk about all this is that how can the adoption agencies convince themselves that adoptions in, in these insanely corrupt countries that are ruled by the military and are constantly committing crimes against humanity against their own population and particularly against poor people, how can they think that adoption can exist in like this ethical little bubble?

In these countries and convince them. I don't think that they actually truly believe that, but they managed to convince other people. That's how it works. That we know that these children, that everything, that's the whole system is perfectly ethical. And yeah, in line with laws and regulations, everything else is messed up.

Like I usually take this example [00:26:00] like with Chile, that Sweden were boycotting Chilean goods and also lots of refugees from Chile came into Sweden that we knew that they had been tortured. But babies perfectly fine. Yeah, it's crazy.

Haley Radke: You're saving the babies. You're saving all those poor babies.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah, but that,

Haley Radke: oh goodness,

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: that poor women were able to give consent. And I think that it's in your papers, Maria, it actually says that your mother wanted you to go to Sweden.

Maria Diemar: Yeah.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: It's yeah.

Haley Radke: They cooked up a great story. The other thing, like there were government workers in Korea, patrolling, like looking for babies like they had jobs to do just that. Oh my gosh.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah. That's one of the things that's been revealed now, of course many years ago, but now it's become widespread knowledge is of course, that every, everyone was in on it. Like midwives, doctors, orphanages, adoption agencies, civil [00:27:00] servants, the police and government officials. There was child finders. Yeah. Like you just said. Yeah. Finding children.

Haley Radke: And everybody was getting tips along the way, like everybody was getting paid for something. So I know you two connected and you could commiserate on all of these similarities. Maria, can you tell us about the state of Chile in this time, where all these children were taken and what sort of led to that?

Maria Diemar: No, but this happened before the dictatorship. This happened earlier and it happened after. So in Chile you had the dictatorship between 1973 and 1990, I think they had the first Democratic elected president. But so children were stolen after also up to 2000 something. But like the peak was during the year of the dictatorship.

[00:28:00] And like you said, one thing that is very in Chile, they actually did an investigation in the Parliament. So they decided to have a group of politicians to investigate what had happened to all the children and why. And they concluded like it was because there was this big demand from abroad, money coming in into Chile and when it's about Sweden, we know because it's documented in Sweden that the adoption agency, they actually paid Chilean social workers, like monthly salary. Salary to, I don't know. To do what? So they were paid from Sweden, and if you are a social assistant in Chile, why are you supposed to get money from Sweden?

But they are very open about it because, I don't know, but they paid at least three, three social assistants. And in Sweden, we are [00:29:00] officially through this agency. We are 2,100 people around that number. And then you have maybe 200, 300 other people. They worked hard to get so many children to a small country as Sweden and also because the police in Chile, they have been investigating adoption like cases where children like me, where we have left the country and they have investigated cases, many cases, and they use my case like a kind of a pilot study quite early on back in, they started in 2018 the crime investigation regarding children that have left Chile started in February, 2018 and it's still going on.

And they concluded I think two, two years [00:30:00] ago that I was kidnapped, I was, I am a victim of a crime. And who did it, like who is responsible? They also concluded that, but the judge that they said was mostly like responsible for me ending up in Sweden she died in 2022, so there is no one to punish.

So it's a little bit frustrating. But they had two, two situations where they talked to her like this judge, and she was, and I have all the documentation in my file. It's 440 pages, the police investigation. And there she say that, oh, Sweden, they had monopoly on children until 1982. So the children from her court in southern Chile, all the children came only to Sweden, but she decided to open up [00:31:00] to other countries in 1982.

But that is, it is so insane when you read about it today and still people say that, no, maybe this didn't happen. And we have all of those, proof. But still, like Lisa said earlier, that in Sweden, when they talk about what happened in Chile and that Sweden was very involved, and they say, oh, but we don't know maybe this didn't happen. So we are like caught between two countries. But still it's, I don't know. It needs to, something needs to happen, but it's hard because it's two legal system. But still, if you know that this happened to so many, and that's one, one thing that we have been talking about, Lisa, that the amount of cases, the amount of mothers that are still looking for their, dead because many children were declared [00:32:00] dead so they could leave the country and, but they are looking for the children still today. And not only the judge that was responsible for, stolen children in southern Chile, the mothers, they're also dying.

And we have, we, yeah, we, so it's so important that not only to speed up the investigation to make people aware of it, but it is so hard to fight the system. It's so hard and yeah, we can talk about it and we want to talk about it, but still, how can we speed this up?

Haley Radke: So you said there is around 20,000 worldwide, right? Adopted out. Ish, I'm not quite sure of the number.

Maria Diemar: Yeah. So that so the thing is, and this happened so long ago, the police investigation in Chile, that is the number they use. So until they update it, it's the number I would use.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Maria Diemar: But it could be more.

Haley Radke: And so around [00:33:00] 10% of those went to Sweden or a little higher.

And so I know they went to other countries as well. Do you know of any other countries that had also their names on birth certificates or like lists of waiting parents?

Maria Diemar: So Switzerland, I know because they are mentioned in my documentation from the judge, but they, Italy, you have Italy, France, Germany, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Australia, US, Mexico.

You have so many. I think they're talking about more than 20 countries where we ended up. But some people, so what happened with children that were stolen and adopted within Chile is that they were like the adoptive parents. They came to the hospital and they registered a stolen child as their own. And that is what happened with, also with children that left the [00:34:00] country.

So it's hard, they can't say a number. And also like we know, the thing is with Sweden, because we love documents, so in Sweden we, we at least have some false documents, but we can see patterns in the documentation, like the same hospitals or the same, doctors or the same social assistants. So we, so it has been easy to follow what happened to us and also because adoption agency, they have all, over 2000 people's records in, at their, archives in Sweden, in Stockholm.

But I know it's harder with other countries like the US they don't know how many, because it was private adoption, churches and not everyone even knows about that. They were adopted. Because yeah. So it's may maybe not as obvious as when you ended up in Sweden, so it is it's a mess. It's a [00:35:00] mess.

Haley Radke: One last comment on that and I wanna talk about how you guys, how, I mean your story is so compelling. Obviously Lisa wrote about it, so we were gonna get to that right away. Just the last comment on, so these were for majority, I'm assuming children of impoverished mothers. I think your mom can read and write, is that correct? I'm listening to that in another interview. So they were intentionally stealing from areas of poverty to, because those people couldn't fight back. They're trying to eradicate poverty in some way by taking away children. Can you say more about that?

Maria Diemar: No, but it's what they have concluded. We have an historian for example, in Southern Chile, Karen Alfaro.

She's been investigating this for years and she, what she has seen is like the target population poor single mothers of an indigenous background. [00:36:00] And yeah, I think in my mom is exactly, what she has concluded and that is, it is, I don't know, it's just so terrible. And you have, for us growing up in Sweden yeah, because of history.

People don't like to talk about race, like ethnicity or race. But many of us that ended up in Sweden, we ha have the same background as me, like partly or full like indigenous background and in Chile, the children that were adopted, they hadn't the same background, so they were whiter that the children that stayed in Chile.

So and so it is, that is something that I am laughing, but it's terrible. But that is what happened. So they could export indigenous children. It was easier to get people abroad to accept that even though my [00:37:00] parents and all the parents that adopted children through adoption, the adoption agency, Adoptionscentrum, they could, they filled out this chart like how brown could their future baby be? What age? So they filled out that, and I am a little darker than the wish my adoptive parents had, but yeah. And, but that is something because. Oh, I can mention, I really would like to mention this, that like for the Swedish cases, because we were very early on compared to other countries so the first child that were like exported from Chile, it was in 71, so it was very like early before the coup.

But then they have statistics that said that in 1974, 16 children, 16 children left Chile to be adopted in Sweden. The year I was born in 1975, we were 97 children that left Chile to be adopted in Sweden. [00:38:00] The year after in 1976 it was almost 200 children. So it's, so they had this kind of worked out, this process and speeding and more children and it's insane. But what I wanted to say in my case was there was so little information. I, okay, we had my mom's name and that she was poor and couldn't read or write, and she wanted me to be adopted in Sweden somehow. But it never, there were no information about my background that I'm indigenous. So that is something I understood eight years ago, because we have been taught in Sweden, don't talk about race, don't like, even though you have another color, it's oh, we are all the same, but still we have so much racism in Sweden.

So that is something I'm still processing that what does it mean to be indigenous? And it [00:39:00] feels like this puzzle of who I am is like ongoing forever and what is the next news for me? It's feels like it's always something. So yeah. So yeah, that was, that is my comment about that.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Okay. So Lisa, you we're gonna go back to the beginning of our conversation. You and Maria Connect. You're an activist, you've got published Palimpsest with is, which is your amazing story, and you're this brilliant artist and you hear Maria's story and you're like.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah, after we met the, that meeting we were bringing up the idea about how can we preserve witness accounts and stories to make people listen to us.

'cause we are sharing them among each other, but we need to make other people listen. So we were talking back and forth about what we could do and we were talking about like exhibitions and collecting stories and publishing an anthology or [00:40:00] something. But I was a bit cynical about that. I remember 'cause I said that the only people who are gonna read an anthology with adoptee voices are adoptees and people who are already in the know.

And then during our conversations, that's when I realized how the incredible work that Maria had done and was still doing, that she had traveled many times to, I talk about you in third person now even though you sitting in front of me. Yeah. All the work. And because you were. The only one, one of the few speak Spanish as well.

You had access to information in a different way, and I just started admiring everything you were doing and suggested that, would it be okay if I write a book about you, if I make a comic about you, but by writing about you, I can also include other people's stories. Because I thought that, I noticed with Palimpsest that people were actually listening and not just people who were already involved in the issue.

So I thought that could be a [00:41:00] good way to get this story out. But then also, I'm a big admirer of course, of activist work and I feel that a lot of the reporting that had that was done through the media was focused solely on the sensational bits. And about reunions and they had their own agendas that didn't really fit what we wanted to communicate.

And you were like, oh, so you're gonna write about me? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I said, I'm gonna do it. Great. It is gonna be great. And then I also want to add that we shouldn't go in too much on this 'cause we have very limited time, but you also have, of course have a younger brother who was also adopted and also stolen from another family.

So I thought it was insane that the stolen people ended up in the same adoptive family. And since then we've had even crazier things. But anyway, so I thought it, it could be quite interesting to put you next to each other [00:42:00] in the book. So I talked to your brother as well, so he, his story is also a big part of the book that I made in the end.

Maria Diemar: So like you said it like about me Yes. About my brother. Yes. But what was, what is incredible important is that you also tell the story about the mothers. So you tell you, you tell about families that where the children disappeared and it's so important because both for Korea and Chile, our parents are first parents are so far away.

So people can't, I don't know, feel what they feel or understand what has happened, what the crimes that were, committed against them. And a big part of that we worked together with representatives of  Hijos y Madres del Silencio or Mothers and Childrens of Silence in Chile. And I also wanted to comment on that.

One of the people that are working in Chile with this [00:43:00] group is the journalist that helped me found my mom more than 20 years ago. So we have like really reconnected from 2017 and she has been, she and other people of course also from the organization, they have been very important to, for us to be able to do this. Yeah.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah so I mean we started working by, basically by talking a lot and I started structuring the story and quite early on I asked do you think that we can talk to some of the parents in Chile as particularly your brother's mother 'cause she had been talking a little bit, she was quite open about what happened to her, unlike your mother, for instance.

So we didn't want to intrude on her. So we asked her, and then that led to other, that we could talk to other mothers as well. So it was really incredible to be able to include their stories with their words, because I just need to add that there has [00:44:00] been some interviews with mothers, or they've been included in some media reporting, but it's very skewed and a lot of it is focused on how grateful they are to the adoptive parents.

And that is not the story at all. But that's how the Swedish and or other international journalists skewed the stories, like focusing on the poverty and almost making it a bit of a, almost like fetishized poverty like it so often is and this kind of white savior perspective, that they are so grateful that the child got to grow up healthily and being cared for by these beautiful adoptive parents.

So it was really interesting to be able to talk to the mothers 'cause they are not grateful at all. They are angry and they are grieving and they are traumatized and they want their children back. They want what was lost back of course. And they want justice. And I was lucky enough to get a grant to go to Chile, but unfortunately Covid happened. So in the end we had to do [00:45:00] it online.

Maria Diemar: But still. So I wanted to add that. So what is so important in all of this is that Lisa also speaks Spanish so to be able to talk to the mothers and the other people we talk to in Spanish, that is, that has been like such a advantage because we, when we've, when you follow other media or other, there's always people that have to, what do you say?

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: They use an interpreter.

Maria Diemar: Yeah. Yeah. And you can hear that so much is missing.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah.

Maria Diemar: From, what the mothers or the families are saying. So I think this was so incredible. Incredibly great. What to Yeah. What we were able to do because of language. And so I also want to like really underline that. So like language and to let the mothers tell their stories that is.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah. And I asked them before the, in, we started the interviews like, what is it that you want to convey with the space [00:46:00] that you get here? What is, what do you want me to communicate? So I told them of course, what the structure of the story was and that, yeah, it's focusing on Maria and her brother.

But what is it that you think is important to tell what you want now when you can choose 'cause I'm not going to change anything to fit my fit the book, so to speak. So they're almost like little portraits that are put in the story and then they pop up. But they, of course, they are about stolen children.

So we, we chose mothers who had lost their children through criminal activities. But yeah, that, that was really great. And the, to move forward a bit, 'cause I could talk about this forever, but it was published in Sweden, in Swedish, in 2022. And then yeah, earlier this year in January, I think it came out finally in Spanish.

And that was what we had worked for the entire time that it would be [00:47:00] published in Spanish. So when that happened, we decided to take the book, bring it back to Chile, to the mothers and where it all started. And it coincided with a big Congress as well, organized by  Hijos y Madres del Silencio . So we knew, so we got invited to talk about the book there.

But then when we mentioned to people that are we coming to Chile, we're bringing the book, other people jumped on the bandwagon and we were invited to, or I was invited to four other events as well. And four of those you were also included 'cause we wanted to do a little book tour, share it between us. So I talked about the making of the book and how I worked on it, but we also thought it was really important that you got to tell your story and it was relevant of course, because that's the story that I tell in the book. So it was a really nice collaboration, I think. And it was so beautiful to, to be in Chile and to meet the mothers face to face. [00:48:00] And unfortunately we had a mishap with the actual book coming on time to Chile, but we could, we were still there in the flesh and saying, I could say thank you to them in person.

Maria Diemar: Yeah. Yeah. So the first event we did in Chile, the first day we arrived in, southern Chile, two of the moms were in, like in the audience, and we didn't know that. So it was so beautiful. And yeah, one of the mothers were, it's is my adoptive brother's mom. She was there, sitting and holding my hand while we were waiting to talk.

And then the other mom, she was there with her granddaughter and yeah, you wrote about her in the book, but we found so her son is a friend of mine, and by a coincidence, we found her back in 2019 and knocked on her door and, talked about her son and they got connected afterwards. So Lisa tells about that in the [00:49:00] book, but she was there and so I helped to interpretate.

Like the first meeting between her and her son online and the granddaughter was with her then, and it was so beautiful to meet them again. But it's also it's also a struggle because one thing that Patricia, my adopted brother's mom, what she said is we are so alone in this. Like we really need support.

We need really need, help with everything from, because what we have noticed for myself also, but you open a big trauma, you know the, you know when you find, if you're lucky enough to find your family or to find your child, you open this big trauma and it's impossible to explain to someone like what you're going through and even to understand it yourself, because I have been talking about my story now, but what I have done, I haven't [00:50:00] processed, like what happened to me for years and years.

What I have done is I have been traveling to Chile to talk to politicians. I've been in Sweden like we have been organizing, an organization been doing so much work, so to process that you are a victim of a crime. That I can't understand it until today that I was kidnapped as a baby because it's so insane.

And also to, I didn't know about it. Like I, I really think I knew, but I didn't know it the way a mom experiencing being separated from your baby. Or from your, child. So actually to hear the mothers talk about this, it is very important. And so I think again, the story that you tell their stories, Lisa, and that people listen to them, I think it's so important.[00:51:00]

And unfortunately yeah, they're not all here. They're already like dying. But some are here and Yeah important.

Haley Radke: In Chile. Are they believed?

Maria Diemar: Yeah, they are.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Maria Diemar: But the problem is the probably so now. They for years and years they weren't, but now they are in another way. I think it's a lot have changed and for me, for the first time this time in Chile, because I've been back and forward many times, but this time was the first time I felt that also the indigenous community, like the Mapuche community, that they also had realized that they have lost a generation, like so many children has been stolen.

And that wasn't the case like five years ago. So we have been working on telling and showing up like I am one of the babies that disappeared. So that is like have [00:52:00] been my work to just show like we are here. And that was very nice to feel like the indigenous community have understood or have seen us.

Or heard and heard us and also want to include us. So I think that is very important. Like little by little, but still it's so slow. Everything. Yeah.

Haley Radke: So I think most people are gonna be irritated when I say this, but Excavated Earth is in Swedish and got translated in Spanish. Hooray. It's not translated into English yet, and I'm assuming a lot, most of my listeners are English speakers.

So if you're a publisher and you wanna get this in English, we have a lineup of customers. When we did book club with Lisa, people were very irritated. They couldn't read her next book. So there's a great demand for it over here. So if you know of someone who can translate this into English and get it published in English, that would be amazing.

Can you guys talk about your [00:53:00] recommendations now because it's connected to this story? And Maria, you mentioned one of the organizations already that you wanted to talk about.

Maria Diemar: Yeah, because in, in Chile, like this scandal with stolen children, it already appeared back in 2014. So they knew about stolen children without the, within the country back then.

So it, several organization they, or networks, they started back then in 2014. And for us, like in, for me personally, like  Hijos y Madres del Silencio they have, they are doing such a great job with mothers and like they are a community today. They meet up every week and they support each other. And like Lisa said, they do this, those big events like yearly where they invite everyone from the police [00:54:00] that, is investigating this and people from abroad, like author Lisa and like they do this, those big and important things both in like in the daily life of the mothers and the families, but also the big events. So I really, and they, okay, so they, what they do is that you can contact them through email or they haven't, we are going to share that information. So you, so this is just one organization, but I feel for them and they are very dear to me because they are doing such a like big, huge work. And so what they do they help, if you are in an adoptee, you need to speak, have someone around you that can help you with Spanish because they are mostly Spanish speaking, but you can search if you are looking for your family, you can contact them and they can help you, guide you how you search your family.

Same thing like from if there is a mom in Chile looking for the child, they [00:55:00] also inform, they have, they are on Instagram and on. Facebook. So they publish those squares, I think they're called busquedas so like search pictures, posters where you have information about the mom or vice versa about, and so they do that and they work with the investigation in Chile.

That is the people that are investigating the crimes and yeah. So that is a big, you can look for them, but it has a very long name.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: And also I just want to add that they do this for free.

Maria Diemar: Yeah,

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: it's a non-profit, voluntary based and completely free for adoptees and mothers to use 'cause they don't want to make money 'cause they feel that people have already made money out of us. So I just wanted to know that as well.

Maria Diemar: Yeah.

Haley Radke: That's a good note. We'll make sure to link to them on the, in the show notes. And as I did, I went and I clicked. You [00:56:00] can click translate on the website if you're in Google Chrome. And I looked through the pictures you were talking about on Facebook, Maria, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is, it's really heart wrenching. So good for them for doing that.

Maria Diemar: Yeah. And one, one important thing is if you are an adoptee and you feel like, oh, I don't really understand like my story, or I have questions there, you can always contact the investigation in Chile, the crime investigation. And I have noticed that people in the US, they are a little bit like careful about that because they ask you for information like, what was your name in your in your Chilean passport, and what is, what do you do for a living today? So they have the, this form so the police want you to fill out a form because they are very traditional and old fashioned in Chile.

So they have this form and [00:57:00] we are going also going to link. So in Sweden, the authorities, they have published the form, you can download it, fill out your information and email it to the police in Chile. So they also have a big database of mothers or family that are searching for the children. So they do not only investigate like the crimes, but they also have this big bank of people looking, searching.

And I also want to mention that you can always do like a DNA, you know those big American companies, you can do the those DNA tests, but also if you're part of the investigation, they want you to do this governmental like they have other DNA tests they want you to do. So I know, for example, they started with this after they started to investigate my case.

Today they say they want me to do the DNA test and [00:58:00] my mom in Chile just to make sure I have done one already during the commercial one. But for the crime investigation, they do it another one. So you have to go to the consulate where you live to do the tests.

Haley Radke: To make sure you weren't switched around or something.

Maria Diemar: Yeah. And also I guess for the legal, the legal terms. So that is something so we can also share where you can download that documents to fill out.

Haley Radke: Okay. So if you're a Chilean adoptee or if you know someone that was adopted from Chile, like you likely, you might not even know that this has all transpired. So it's, we wanna know the truth, right? Even if it's difficult. I hope that people engage with this. Thank you.

Maria Diemar: Yeah. And also like for the future, we are really trying to like both Hijos y Madres del Silencio as an organization and different adoptee, different groups of [00:59:00] adoptees in different countries. We are trying to get, like in Korea, like a recognition like this happened, and we want them to also actually start this preparation and, but we what we want for the future because maybe you as an adopted person, maybe you don't want to know because it's scary to, to learn the truth, but we also have the next generation, we also have our children. So in sometimes the children are the ones that are searching for the truth. So if we have this DNA bank, as in Argentina for example, if we have that, then we will make sure that those crimes, that what happened to us or that the future generation, that they will have something, a place to go to, to learn the truth.

So it's very important with a governmental DNA database and not only those, commercial ones. So yeah, it's a lot to, to work for. And you know [01:00:00] it, I know this will take years and I was connected to an adopted person from Chile in the US that is, he's building up this. What do you call it?

Like this group of lawyers and people working to fight for justice and they are making this case about suing the Chilean government or this Chilean, the state of Chile because they didn't look out for us as babies. So you have many different, like I said, groups and organization and what we work for. But yeah, there's a lot out there.

Haley Radke: Thank you, Maria. Okay. I'm just gonna do a quick aside with Lisa, because I know you have been working with the Korean Truth and Reconciliation Committee and also very exciting. Congratulations. You just reclaimed your Korean citizenship. I know [01:01:00] you've been living there for a little while.

Can you talk about those things 'cause there's some big things that have happened and as we're recording this, like it's gonna come out, in a month or so, but just as things are today if you have comments on that and why did you decide to reclaim your citizenship?

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: If we start with the citizenship, I lived in New Zealand when I applied for it and we, my family and I had just been in Korea then, and I had been talking in a national assembly, the Korean Parliament, about what happened to me.

I had been involved in a big exhibition with adoptee only and it had transformed me in a way. And my kids fell in love with Korea completely and started this campaign about us moving there. So I thought that this could be a good time to try and see if I can restore my citizenship. So I started the process in New Zealand and they said that yeah, it could take half a year or a bit longer than that.

And it was an [01:02:00] insane process because I had to explain to them, 'cause they had no knowledge about adoption really, that a lot of my documents that you want to see are actually falsified, so you can't really trust what's in it, but hopefully we can work this out anyway. And then they told me that they recommended me not to move to Korea until this had been finalized.

But my kids were pushing and said we need to move to Korea now. So in the end, we decided to leave New Zealand and move to Korea before I got my citizenship. And it was lucky because I was granted it two years after the application. So it took a long time. And yeah, I did it partly because I thought that it would make things easy with a move.

But yeah, we moved before it was finalized, but also that symbolically and emotionally, it felt like an important step because activists had fought for adoptees to be able to do this because Korea doesn't actually allow doubles or dual citizenship. [01:03:00] Sweden does, but not Korea. So they have an exception for adoptees only.

Haley Radke: Oh.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah. But the thing is, which is a little bit different, 'cause my kids have dual citizenship too, but not Korean. They Swedish and British, which means that they are, yeah, they are my kids, they have two citizenships, but they are one person. But me, I'm restoring my citizenship. So I am actually becoming Chung Wool-Rim again.

So now I'm both Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom. A Swede and  Chung Wool-Rim , a Korean. So I have two identities, which is insane and it's probably gonna cause some sort of administrative chaos. But yeah, we'll see about that. But I've been asking around with other adoptees who had restored citizenship and yeah, it is a bit of a mess, but it's also working so yeah.

Haley Radke: But two identities, that's just that's really reclaiming your adoptee identity 'cause we're [01:04:00] all like split in some way, I'm sure inside.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah, it feels very, I don't know telling, but the beautiful thing is that I got to have a ceremony with other people too, who got a citizenship and I bought a beautiful handbook and I got a big nice Korean flag to wave around and yeah, it all felt very special.

But now I'm in this yeah, chaos with everything I need to do. I need to change a lot of things here. Yeah. So a lot of paperwork to fill out, which I absolutely hate it. I'm not looking forward to that, but

Haley Radke: what?

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: It still feels incredible.

Haley Radke: I thought you were raised in Sweden. I was told you all love paperwork. No. Okay.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Oh yeah, that's true. I'm the exception.

Haley Radke: You're the exception. Yeah. Do you have comments on the findings of the commission? Any of the recent media reports on that?

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Oh yeah, I, and I am gonna try and keep this short as well. So I just wanted to mention first that I was personally involved in making sure that 21 [01:05:00] Swedish cases were submitted to the commission in 22.

And this was another, a Swedish case too. But me and my network, the Swedish Korean Adoptees Network, we are representing 21 of these. And it's been quite a process and a long time just waiting for things to happen. And now, as you might know, there's been a bit of a political chaos in Korea because of the impeachment of the sitting president and the impeachment of the president that replaced him.

So we are gonna have a, an election in June, so I get to vote. Very soon, which is also incredible. So the current TSC, which is, we can just loosely call it TSC two because it was relaunched in 21, I think it could be 2020, I could be wrong. Started in 2005 and then ended in 2010 and then relaunched again.

So [01:06:00] 311 cases out of 367 submitted in total remained to be investigated. So we were very worried because the final report was gonna come in May. We were very worried about what they were gonna do with the remaining cases. So a lot of the media now is saying that they're closing, but it's rather that they are putting it on hold.

So our cases, the 311 remaining is said that they are unresolved, not closed, they're unresolved until further notice. So what we are hoping for and what we think will happen is that the TSC three will open with a new government and our cases will continue to be investigated. And we are also hoping and working for that they will be able to, that other adoptees will be able to submit their cases now so that the 367 cases will be joined by new cases.

Because a lot of people have [01:07:00] asked, can we submit our case too, can we submit? And it's been closed for new cases, so hopefully this will actually lead to something better. A new fresh government and more room to work with our cases, the ones that already have been submitted, but also the acceptance of new cases.

Haley Radke: Amazing. Thank you for that information and if we ever hear that there's opening for more cases or things that like, we're following along with those news and we'll let you know and we'll keep people up to date on that. Thank you so much, Maria and Lisa. What an honor to hear your story maria and I love this friendship of you built.

What I wanna recommend folks check out is you guys have a podcast together and I hope you start recording more episodes. I know podcasting is a lot of work, but you're a delight together. I love hearing your voices. It's called Lifting the Adoption Fog and listening to it, I was like, oh man, these are my kind of girls because you sorry to call you girls, women because you're so [01:08:00] passionate about adoptees, you're activists, organizers, like you're getting stuff done. Like people will love hearing you talk about adoptee issues. And so I hope folks go and check that out. Where can we connect with you online and follow and hopefully hear news that we're gonna see an English copy of Excavating Earth?

Why can I have such a horrible saying that Excavating Earth, what is it in Swedish?

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Den uppgrävda jorden which is even more tricky to say than Den uppgrävda jorden.

Haley Radke: Okay, and then in Spanish.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Tierra Excavada.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Which is the literal translation so that's beautiful that they kept it. Yeah.

Haley Radke: All right. Amazing. Okay, so Maria, where can we connect with you and follow online?

Maria Diemar: Yeah, so I have an Instagram account and connected to a Facebook account. I own my story, Maria Dimer. I think it said, I hope you link it.

Haley Radke: I will link it and yes, that's what it's called.

Maria Diemar: It's such a long [01:09:00] name. Yeah, and Lisa and I, we have the podcast, we have the Instagram for that too. We are more frequently, we record more frequently in Swedish, and that is Den Talande Tystnaden, but yeah, like you said, we have the Lifting the Adoption Fog, so yeah, that's.

Haley Radke: We can link to your Swedish podcast.

Maria Diemar: Yeah, thank you.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah, it's a bit more active.

Haley Radke: And I'm sure we have some Swedish listeners.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah. And you can also find me on Instagram on  Chung Wool-Rim. And it's good if you share the link 'cause no one knows how to spell that.

Haley Radke: I, yeah, one of these days I'll get it right when I pronounce it. What a delight. Thank you so much. You both thank you for your work for adoptees, truly. And I am so glad that you're both in this world working. We're all working alongside each other.

Lisa Wool-Rim Sjöblom: Yeah. Thank you so much for having us.

Maria Diemar: Yeah, thank you.

Haley Radke: Sometimes people ask me like, [01:10:00] why I keep podcasting? Oh, you just talk about the same things adoptees we should just get over it by now. When you hear a story like this, okay, where at a minimum 20,000 babies we're kidnapped and stolen and sold to other countries, like how can you not become radicalized in some way?

Literally how in one thing. We didn't get it, we didn't get into it in this interview 'cause two people, there's so many things I wanna get into. The story is fascinating. I wanted to ask them like so many more questions, but like we, we already went over time. Like you, I'm sure you get it. But we didn't get into this except for after I was saying to them how [01:11:00] Maria in this interview says the skin color shading right determines whether or not they could possibly find places for these children. And the racism of it all, I reminded them, I was like the United States that the babies that are available for international adoption from the United States are almost all black babies. If you think these things still aren't happening today you're just not paying attention. Like this isn't just like some old story of, oh, this happened back in the day. These things are still happening in current day countries. Like now this is happening all over. I know what's happening in the United States. Perhaps not children being literally kidnapped, but might as well be with [01:12:00] the amount of coercion that's happening from adoption agencies. And that's my opinion anyway. I hope you follow along with Lisa and Maria, there's so many amazing adoptee activists, like bringing these stories to light. Like we can't forget these, this history because we're repeating it and we just can't be doing that. Like we can't be stealing babies from women just 'cause they're poor, like babies are not a commodity, right?

Like I'm laughing 'cause it's so egregious and just I, there's no words for it. It's shocking, it's horrifying. And if you look at the practices of things that are [01:13:00] happening today, we're just calling it something different. And we're still stealing babies from poor mothers who don't have supports. Oh my goodness. Anyway, I appreciate you listening. I know some of these things are so hard to listen to. It's, it is, it's very hard. And to think of the impacts it has had on those, say 20,000 plus adoptees from Chile, and many of them likely don't even know that they were stolen. And like you and me, perhaps have this idea like Maria did.

Oh, like your mom gave you away when in truth, in Maria's experience, she was forcibly taken. So things to think about. Thank you for being here. Thank you for [01:14:00] listening to adoptee voices. If you want Adoptee design to continue to exist in this world, please consider joining us on Patreon. It's adopteeson.com/community, and we do our best to help support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We would love to have your support over there. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again soon.