311 Sasha Hom

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/311

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Sasha Hom lives an extraordinarily unconventional life. I'm so excited to introduce her to you. She is a writer, a goat farmer, a mother, and her new book Sidework is incredible. Today we talk about her experiences as a Korean adoptee adopted to a Chinese American couple in California.

Sasha tells us about her trips to Korea and China. We talk motherhood as adoptees and how important writing is in her life. Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our [00:01:00] Patreon adoptee community over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On Sasha Wol-soon Hom. Welcome.

Sasha Hom: Thank you for having me.

Haley Radke: I'm so excited to talk to you. I read your book a couple of times. I was just telling you before we started, I've read a whole bunch of pieces of your work that you've written over the years and I'm just like such a huge fan.

But before we get to that, would you mind by starting the way we usually do, Sasha, would you share some of your story with us?

Sasha Hom: Yeah, I would be happy to. So I was adopted from Korea as a young, [00:02:00] I guess as a baby, probably around eight months old, eight or nine months old. And my parents flew me out and I came like many Korean adoptees, this was in the seventies on a plane load of children.

And my parents, my adoptive parents are actually Chinese American, which is unusual in Korean adoption for especially of that time for another Asian American to adopt a Korean adoptee. So both of my parents were actually born and raised in Oakland. They come from families of five and six, and their parents were immigrants from China and for whatever reasons, they couldn't have their own biological child, so they went to Korean adoption. And that's how I got here. And then when I was about 12 years old, they decided they wanted to [00:03:00] adopt another child. So they went back to the social worker and wanted to adopt another child from Korea. Their reasoning at that time was we don't want Sasha to grow up, and be by herself.

We are getting older and we don't want a baby 'cause I, we can't really do diapers anymore and we don't want them to be too far apart in age. So they adopted an older child. My sister was four and a half when she came here and she spent her earlier years in the orphanage. And so we went over to Korea when she was 12.

This was like, I think it was in 1988. And I, I don't know if some people might know this, but in 1988 in Seoul there was like full on demonstrations happening, protesting for democracy. I think that was when dictator Park was still in power, although I could have my dates wrong. But [00:04:00] anyways, so when we got there, it was, there were demonstrations in full effect.

And I just remember as a child, every time we had to go in and out of our hotel, we had to cover our faces 'cause of the tear gas and it. Sometimes, it got quite those protests were pretty heated and I could watch from my hotel room, which was really high up and I could see everybody like running back and forth and that's what I included in that story sidewalks actually was that scene. But I remember it very vividly and that was like the backdrop of our experience of going to Korea to adopt another child.

Haley Radke: And was that your first time back to Korea?

Sasha Hom: Yeah, that was my first time back. And so it was my, also my first impression of Korea and as well as from my parents. And it was interesting. It, yeah, and I think for my parents [00:05:00] it was difficult in many ways. I think my mother attributed some of it to like oh, that's just how Koreans are. Like they're very, they're a physical culture and there's, that sort of thing.

Haley Radke: And this was likely their first visit if you came over on a plane by yourself?

Sasha Hom: Yes, that's correct.

Haley Radke: Oh goodness. That is quite a story, Sasha, that's very, I'm picturing 12-year-old you processing that. And so now as an adult, looking back on that, how did that impact your view of your home country?

Sasha Hom: It's interesting and I think that so much of how I process information and remember has to do with myself as a writer I think. So things that stay with me are, [00:06:00] certainly the feelings of being there, of like confusion, but also of there's this feeling that this is where I came from and yet I don't necessarily feel a familiarity with this place or this culture or this language, but I feel like I should feel those things.

And I, in some ways, I feel like I want to feel those things as well. I think that yearning also came from never feeling exactly like I fit in with my own family. And, I grew up in Berkeley, in California. In the Bay Area. So I grew up in a really diverse community. I was fortunate in that way.

My best friend was adopted, some of my other friends were adopted. So that was really, that was helpful. Like I, I meet a lot of adoptees who grew up and they're like the only Korean in sight or within a hundred mile radius, which is like my situation right [00:07:00] now 'cause I live in Vermont and I'm like, oh my God, how did I go from Berkeley to here? Talk about not feeling like I fit in.

Haley Radke: We have to find that out too.

Sasha Hom: So there was a lot of those sort of like mixed conflicting feelings. But I remember so clearly also this feeling of connection. And I write about that in the story, like seeing these like older women. Middle aged ajummas, like just how like familiar they were with each other and how like physical and boisterous and playful and just feeling oh, like that felt familiar and oh wow.

That's what I feel inside, but I don't always have the appropriate cultural context to express myself in that way. So I think that trip also there planted, there was planted the [00:08:00] seeds of some sort of connection and the potential for belonging that seeded future returns and searches.

Haley Radke: That's fascinating because what was in my head was, I was like, oh my gosh, this seed of fear planted when they sent you solo on a plane to America. And then you go back and I see that the tear gas, I see that as like a fear again, intermingled. And you're, you've got these mixed feelings of I'm curious. I should want this. And like it's just, yeah, God, that's complex. Let's go to your upbringing again. So you had Chinese American parents and that is really unusual. So many of the adoptees I've interviewed that are from Korea are adopted into white families. [00:09:00] So can you talk about that experience? And I imagine you, were grew up in their culture.

Sasha Hom: Yeah. And like their culture was very specific.

Haley Radke: Exactly.

Sasha Hom: And they were like, first generation Chinese Americans born in Oakland,

Haley Radke: Uhhuh,

Sasha Hom: who both grew up with quite a high amount of poverty initially, and chaos and dysfunction as well. And, but at the same time, growing up, their families were very close. I really appreciated that. So I had a lot of cousins, I had a lot of aunts and uncles. That changes as things often change when like the grandparents pass away. My parents eventually got divorced, but that was much later in my development. I guess I was more like closer to 20 at that time, or 19 or something. So I did grow up with two [00:10:00] parents, like a two parent household, and I was very close in retrospect, I say everything, of course in retrospect. So sometimes I like question myself, like, how am I remembering this? Is this like correct?

And there's a part of me that's always, I hear my parents in my head saying things to me and, oh, that's not true. Or, but in, in retrospect, I mean I was very close to my mother's side of the family and her parents. I didn't grow up with my father's parents. But I grew up with my mother's parents being a part of my life.

And my maternal grandfather, he actually took me with a group like on a tour back to China, to his village. So when I was 16, I went with a group of American born Chinese and Canadian born Chinese whose, who had ancestral ties to Southern China. And we all went back and [00:11:00] we went to our like grandparents villages or whatever.

So I got to have that experience of going with my grandfather and seeing what he came from. And he had this incredible story of leaving China and like basically, running away when he was like, fourth grade age or as a young boy, like naked 'cause his, he was in a situation of abuse, but starting with literally nothing.

Not even clothes or shoes. And then, that the story of, coming up and becoming wealthy and owning his own Chinese restaurant one day and, becoming very successful. So it was really great going back to his village and just seeing like the board, which was his bed, where he grew up, and just that whole experience.

But I had that very acute feeling of oh wow, like I come from a village too. I come from some beginnings, some story that I don't know that is probably just [00:12:00] as incredible and fascinating and complicated, but I don't have that access. And that for me, at 16 was another moment of, wow, I wanna know, but I don't know how to know.

And I think that also fostered the writer in me. I can know in my imagination. I can write scenes, I can explore that. I can write characters. But there's still that, not that knowing that. But you'll still never know.

Haley Radke: Yeah I was thinking, which piece is it that I read that you write these different possibilities of origins? Sorry, I have them all printed out. I killed a lot of trees for this reading. Oh yes. Origin Story One. Origin Story Two. A Guidebook, This Pen, that piece. Yes. I love that. But yet. [00:13:00] Do you try and search? Do you, did you ever go back to Korea again after that trip to pick up your new sister?

Sasha Hom: I did. I did go back. I went back in my twenties and I actually, I went on a trip with a friend and she is Vietnamese and she went back, she was going back to Vietnam for the first time in however many years, 10, 11 to go visit her family. And she invited me to go along and I said, sure, I'd love to. And that trip included a stopover somewhere.

And that stopover happened to be Seoul. So I went with her to Vietnam. And I saw her be reunited with her family and relearn her own country through what she was eating and having all these memories of that, and also all this grief because since she [00:14:00] immigrated to the United States, her mother had since passed away. So there was also this grief that came up. So I was having that experience vicariously through her. But what ultimately happened was I left early, I left Vietnam and I went to Korea and I started my own search. And as like in my twenties, I didn't have a lot of emotional skill. Like I didn't have a lot of self care and ways to support myself and even know when I needed support.

So it was a really, it was it was a rough trip. It was a little rough, but I was a little rougher then too. But I did connect with a, the GOAL, The Global Overseas Adoptee Link in Seoul, and they had just begun, that was 19, holy crap. I'm not gonna remember. 1998 or [00:15:00] nine. Yeah. Something like that.

And so I met all these like amazing adopted Korean people who were living in Seoul and like trying to advocate for the rights of adoptees who have returned to Seoul, who felt like, this is my culture, this is my country. I wanna know who I am and where I've come from, and I wanna be able to stay here for more than three months at a time and then have to go, or whatever it was.

So yeah, so that was, that felt very I don't know, what do you call it? When you're in a place at a certain time, that is, is feels historical, so yeah. So that was the first time I searched and I did what a lot of adoptees do. I went on television and I put an ad in the paper and I went to my agency to look at my files again, and ultimately nothing really turned up.

I did discover that the exact time of my birth, which I didn't know, and the [00:16:00] social worker kept saying, oh no, you know that, the time you were born, we gave that to your parents. And my parents had never received the time I was born. And it was a very specific time. It was like 10:06 PM and I called my adopted mother in the States and she was like, oh, great, now I can find your rising sign.

I'm like, okay, great mom. My astrological chart is finally complete. But to me, that signal that there was more information out there for one. And that there was misrepresentation happening, and this was before all that stuff came to light, really, like it was slowly dawning on me. And I was in this community of Korean adoptees there from all over the world who've come back to do the same search and.

There was like story after story, like one adoptee went to his agency to ask for help to find his birth family, and they said, we know nothing. And it was like at the exact same time, his birth [00:17:00] family had gone back to the agency to look for him and they told them the same thing. So there was all this stuff that just wasn't making sense to me, and ultimately I didn't find anything else out and I had to go back. I went back home.

Haley Radke: Did you have the abandonment story that so many do? Yeah.

Sasha Hom: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Isn't that interesting then that they know exactly what time you were born, right?

Sasha Hom: Yeah. Yeah. I was, yeah left on a doorstep in a basket or something with a note.

Haley Radke: Uhhuh. Wow. So did you ever want to keep, do you still want to keep searching? Did you ever find anything or do you put that away and think I guess that's, that. I don't know.

Sasha Hom: Yeah, interesting. I, so couple things before I like really address that one was that it [00:18:00] was on this podcast that I learned the term paper orphan from another guest and whose name I can't pull up right now, but I was like, oh wait a second. That's me. And so I did return again in my gosh, I was almost 30. No, I was in my thirties, in my early thirties. My husband was doing an Korean language program in Korea, and this was in 2008. And I did go back. I presented a paper at the GOAL's 10 year anniversary, and I had two children with me, a three and a half year old and a five month old.

And my husband was like in this program and it was in a university and I had to stay in the women's dorm, and he was in the men's dorm. And it was just like I didn't have, I hardly saw him at all. So I had to go and do that in Seoul the paper presentation with my kids and just take the [00:19:00] bus and it was wild.

But I did not intend to search. That was never my goal when I went out, when I returned that third time, but just in case I brought whatever paperwork I had. The dorm that I was staying in, the woman's dorm downstairs, there was a flower shop. And the flower shop people was this couple that they didn't have any kids and they, when they found out I was an adoptee, they were like, oh no, we're gonna find your family for you.

And by then the 10 years had passed. It was a totally different culture in Korea towards adoptees. Like when I first got there in 88 or whatever it was, they, people were like covering their face and running the other direction when they figured out that I was an adoptee or like screaming at me for not knowing my language or, it was just like this wide range of reactions.

And some of them were positive, but a lot of 'em weren't. But this couple took me under their wing and they [00:20:00] tried to find this place where I was supposedly abandoned and I had both of my children with me and we went and we drove all around the town of an Anyang but all the streets had been renamed.

So we, it took us a while to find the spot and I'm like, my, I had a 3-year-old, I think or almost four, and she was like refusing to sit in the car seat. So she's at the foot at my foot in the back of the car and I have this five month old and I'm like, I don't know if I even want to find the spot where I was abandoned.

But eventually we found it and it was so bizarre 'cause there was nothing there. It was just like a utility pole and a pile of trash on the ground. And there wasn't much else. And my daughter points to the pile of trash. And she goes, mama, is that where you were found? It's just oh Lord, I didn't know what to say. Maybe baby, [00:21:00] but I don't know, and do I wanna find more information? Yes, I do. I would love to know, but do I have the time or the capacity or the means to like do that search now I don't, I have four kids. I'm a goat farmer. I live off grid in a yurt in central Vermont, and I am busy as all hell, and I'm a writer and yeah I would love to do that search a little further. And I think my children a couple of, so my oldest. My oldest is 20, and then my next one is 17 after that. And I think that they have some curiosity about my past and my, my lineage. So maybe they'll take up that search. I have no idea.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for reminding us the difficulties of search, especially for folks who've been [00:22:00] trans nationally adopted. Us domestics, take it for granted. We can spit in a tube or get our paperwork some much more easily. Okay. Before we go to the yurt and the goats, because please, like I don't worry, I'm not gonna miss that.

I just have one more question about your adoptive parents. So were you ever, does, is mis raced a thing? Were you ever thought to be Chinese? Yes. You're nodding.

Sasha Hom: Yeah, like all the time.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Sasha Hom: I think, and I also feel fortunate that I found out I was adopted at a fairly young age. I found out in preschool, and I found out because my friend told me and I didn't know what it meant. And somehow, like her mother told her and she told me my, so my parents didn't tell me. And so I had to ask them what it meant. And then, and that's how I found out. So I [00:23:00] think, that was helpful. But people would always say, I look like my father and I, it's sure, whatever. And maybe I do, and when I went to China, people always thought I was Chinese and my grandfather would actually correct them sometimes.

Explain that no, I was adopted, I'm Korean. But I think, people always wanna say, oh no, she looks, she's Chinese. She looks classical Chinese. But I think there's a little bit of that too in communities where one community wants to claim you. Yeah. And so the feeling of who I really am felt like a secret, like I could pass, so therefore it's easier to pass. Like why explain who I really am. So yeah, that was an interesting effect, I think of that.

Haley Radke: You didn't have to announce, you were adopted to explain your presence in the family or [00:24:00] anything like that. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Wow. Thank you. Okay, so you live an unconventional life, and how did you come to be goat farmers and nomads and I know that you were in California and the wildfires sent you to Vermont, essentially, but can you share a little bit about that part of your life with listeners?

Sasha Hom: Yeah, it's a long story, so I'll try to keep it brief, but it began when I had my first child and I think like a lot of mothers, I was going crazy and I just, I didn't understand like how people could be a stay at home mom and not have community and try to like actually make a living and be artists and make work.

It just, it made no sense. So I decided, hey, I [00:25:00] have a solution to this problem and I, instead of working 60 hours a week husband, we're gonna buy a van, we're gonna move into this van and we're gonna live out of it and be together all the time and be on the road and take our baby and figure it out. So we did that with my oldest and that sort of began like this sort of openness to unconventional living.

It didn't last super long 'cause we lost, we ran outta money as happens, and we ended up living on an island off the coast of Maine. But then also my oldest daughter had a lot of sensory processing issues, and at that time we were living in Davis, California in a suburb, and the recommendations were things like, oh, have her carry something heavy or like this joint compression stuff to get proprioceptive input into her body or wear a weighted blanket.

I, they had all these suggestions that felt, you have to [00:26:00] manufacture the effects of that on their body. But we noticed that when she was outside, like when we were in the woods and camping and she's climbing trees, or she's hiking and we're carrying backpacks or we're at the beach, she was fine.

I think after her first year of preschool, we took her, or maybe it was kindergarten, we went backpacking and it was like she literally walked seven miles at the slowest pace possible. It was like one foot in front of another, in front of another. Not the whole seven miles, but it was a good amount of time and it was like she needed to do that to process her first year of kindergarten.

And so we let her do it and my husband stayed with her 'cause I could not keep that pace. And I was like, I can't do this. But he can. And so I think that also reoriented us to the possibilities of the cliche of the healing power of nature, [00:27:00] which is no joke. This kid got something from being outdoors that helped her be in her body and be in her self. So we left Davis, my husband got a graduate, what do you call it? A dissertation fellowship. So they paid him to write his dissertation. So I'm like, okay, baby, that means we're gone. We don't have to be anywhere. So we moved back into the van and we looked for another place to live. And also I'd, I would say like economics has a lot to play in it, because we didn't have a lot of money.

We're not like, oh, let's go buy land and start a homestead. It was more like, we have to figure out how to do this. We have a couple canvas tents. We have our dog, our kids, our van, which brought us to an intentional community because we could live there fairly inexpensively and do unconventional things.

And that ended up being living in tents. [00:28:00] So we got like a big canvas tent and a teepee. And there was space in the woods that we could live and we figured it out that way and caught rainwater and cut all our own wood and we'd have to walk in. And we had, by then, at the end of that, we had four kids. So a lot of our kids grew up that way, just outside.

But yeah. And then the wildfires happened and there went that situation. And it was the fourth year in a row where we had to evacuate because of wildfires. Mostly because of smoke 'cause like when you're living in a tent, you, there's no protection. It's just you and the elements and the smoke.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Sasha Hom: So we would always evacuate and the last time in 2020 we were, we were in pandemic. I'd lost my job as a waitress because of the pandemic. So I was also on whatever they would give you. They were throwing me some money, but not [00:29:00] much. So we took that as an opportunity to be like, okay, let's figure this out again. Let's go somewhere where there's not wildfires. It's not quite as expensive and competitive.

And that's how we ended up in Vermont. It was just literally like driving and sending out emails and seeing what came back. And just Vermont, somebody answered an ad that my husband's cousin put out there or something, or not an ad, an email, and said that they had a place for us. So we bounced around Vermont a little bit and then we found a land co-op.

So we're on again, we're on cooperatively owned land and we were here for a while before they're like, okay, sure, go ahead, put up a yurt. And so that's what we did. But you can't live in Canvas tents in central Vermont, although I'm in one right now. So we live that, we live in them half the year. But then, so that's why we moved.

We upgraded to Yurts, [00:30:00] which is a significant upgrade.

Haley Radke: Just to keep a little warmer, okay. So unconventional life, not an exaggeration. I'm curious. You must hear this a lot. I could never do that. We could never do that. And what do you think people fear when they ask you that question?

Sasha Hom: I think that people say, I never wanna do that because they don't want to have to challenge or rethink what they are doing now. 'Cause it's a lot of work. And sometimes, we do get a lot of, not a ton, but we get a lot of reactions to how we live and how we are. And not a ton though, but I think the most common one is oh, like fascination. I wish I could do that.

Like how, like where do you go to the bathroom? Like how do you like that kind of thing, like how do [00:31:00] you like, get in touch with other people and.

Haley Radke: How are you doing a podcast?

Sasha Hom: Yeah.

Haley Radke: How did you write, how did you write a whole book and publish all these stories and articles.

Sasha Hom: Yeah. Yeah. Which is its own thing, right? And it's true. But I think, yeah, anytime you're doing something out of the box or out of the norm. I think it can be challenging for some people. I don't know why everybody has got their own reasons as to why, but I also try to, I don't tend to accept here, broadcast my lifestyle to others.

Haley Radke: So you have four kids and you, it sounds like you started this outdoor life, I'm gonna call it, to help your daughter. Can you talk about motherhood and especially as an adopted person? 'Cause it's different for us. I think it's different for us.[00:32:00]

Sasha Hom: Yeah, that's a great question and way of connecting it. I think that a lot of what came up, all this came up. Because we were putting our children's needs first in a different sort of way. Not oh, I'm gonna spend all my money so she can have classes at Kumon. Or something like tutoring. And it was more, how do you say it? I think that it was also taking into account like the family as like a holistic whole unit.

And I think that mothering, it kicked my butt, right? Like it kicked my butt when I had my first child. I remember looking at her when she was three days old, like the day that I was supposedly abandoned on the doorstep in the basket with the note, and just having that realization that, oh my God, this is what I was like when my mother left me.

[00:33:00] This is how she saw me last. And it was this realization of 'cause I spent a lot of time as a young adult feeling anger about being left. Like, how could she leave me? Or how could I have been like, rejected and feeling that abandonment and rejection. But in that moment with my daughter, my hormones are raging and everything, but as they are after birth I had this moment of wow, she must have loved me so much to be able to let me go like that and to have to go through all that pain herself.

So I think that was a moment where my narrative flipped a little for that story. But the other thing that happened was life wasn't about me anymore. It wasn't just about what I wanted, where I wanted to go, when I wanted to go, and that lack of mobility was hard 'cause I was a city girl. I would just go, jump in the car, [00:34:00] jump on the bus, jump on my bike, go wherever.

I was a dog walker, that's anyways too. So I was like all over town with, a gang of dogs and in the hills and then all of a sudden I couldn't do that. And that was really difficult. And I think I realized that, okay, if there's gonna be movement, it's as a group, it's all of us together.

It's like the dogs, my daughter, my husband. And I think there's just something in me that is tuned towards movement. I have a hard time staying put and, that has more to do with me but that was one way in which. We as a family, me as myself, evolved as a family into something that was more workable for everybody, you and babies love movement.

Haley Radke: Frankly, that's sometimes the only way they can fall asleep, right? You're replicating the movement of what they felt in [00:35:00] utero, you said something a little earlier in our conversation that perhaps your oldest children, they might be the ones to take up the search, and it reminds me that the adoption severance is not just for our gen, but the ones that follow and that gap in knowledge can pass on as well. Do you ever think about that? Do your, do you have your daughters ever talked about going to Korea or doing any of that exploration?

Sasha Hom: Yeah I think my 17-year-old has been more interested about Korea. Maybe my 20-year-old too. She has a friend who is from Korea who has invited her and my 17-year-old, to go back and offered a place to stay and stuff like that. So I think that they're entertaining that and I think that they will, I think that there will be some [00:36:00] kind of connection there for them. It's so hard to say, like our children will, I don't know. We all have to figure out like how we belong in this world and how we connect to what we connect to.

But it was interesting because I was reading this book recently called Tastes Like War by a Korean American sociologist, I can't remember her name right now. And. It was fascinating for me also just to learn more about Korea in the seventies and what was happening. But my daughter asked me what I was listening to, 'cause I was listening to it on, on, on tape.

And so she actually picked it up herself after she was visiting us. And she went back, she moved back to California and she read it as well, which I was like, oh, interesting. Yeah.

Haley Radke: So there's curiosity whether or not it's spoken or not.

Sasha Hom: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I just looked up Grace Cho. Is that the [00:37:00] one?

Sasha Hom: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Sasha Hom: Yes.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Sasha Hom: Yeah. And it is, and I think that our lifestyle, how it hits the children, it's, it in effects is different. My 20-year-old, she moved back to California as soon as she could. She didn't ever really accept Vermont as a place for her. And then my 17-year-old, she's home halftime, but she spends the other half, like in, in the city in Burlington. She's really like enjoying exploring city life, but I think that where she goes for nourishment is into the woods and back with the animals. Whereas my like 13-year-old, she had a moment where she's I can't go to school 'cause we homeschool. And she's she wanted to go and then she just had this realization of, I, I don't think I could be inside for eight hours a day. And she's in fact, I know I can't. And she also has some sensory issues and she's got her set of challenges [00:38:00] and she grew up outside. So she really has used the outdoors as a way of self-soothing and just feeling like this is where I belong in the world. If she has trouble, she'll go and sit under a tree or in a tree and we'll see what happens with my 10-year-old but he was the one who grew up until he was like five or six, never having spent like much time in a house. He had never lived with toilets or doors or stuff like that. Running water. My 13-year-old still, she struggles with doorknobs. She doesn't like it just don't make sense. And it depends on the style of doorknob too.

Haley Radke: There's a great scene in, in Inside Work about that. It's just so good. Okay. I don't wanna spoil it let's talk about writing before we, we do talk about recommended resources. How do you fit it all in? Where do you write? Literally, are you writing on paper? Are you writing on your [00:39:00] laptop? Where are you fitting this in? Because to live outside is so much extra work that someone like me, okay, am I getting my groceries delivered this week or am I gonna go pick 'em up at the store? No big deal.

Sasha Hom: So I'm very fortunate too. 'cause my husband is, I guess I, I wouldn't say I was fortunate. Maybe you know. Five years ago or something. But he is also a, an art, an artist. He's a composer, so he understands like the need for time and quiet and a place to work and which makes employment difficult. That's all I'm saying. Part about not being so fortunate is like we both don't really like to work nine to five jobs and we don't. So we share and have shared studio space for some time now, and I'll use it in the morning and he'll use it at night.

So when we were in California and I was [00:40:00] waitressing, I had some extra income so I could rent a place down the hill from where our site was. And it was like an old watchman shack at a mill. And so we would share that space and now we have two yurts, one that we live in and one that we work in. So that's our studio space.

So I go in there in the morning and I write in there. I'm up pretty early. However, when we evacuated, that was really challenging because we had the van and that was it. We had the little minivan and then we were staying with his parents for part of a time, although it was pandemic, so we couldn't go straight there.

So we were also staying like wherever we could figure it out. I couldn't, there was really hard to find time and space, and I was in an MFA program and I was just, writing Sidework. But, and so I would go in the car and then what we, what I figured out was that if I wake up at two in the [00:41:00] morning, it's quiet and I can write.

So I would, I started doing that. I would wake up at two and I would write until about seven, get my kids situated for breakfast, and then take a nap. And then take another nap and go to sleep at really early. And then I did that for quite a while. I wouldn't recommend it unless you had to.

Haley Radke: Do you need to write?

Sasha Hom: I tried to quit, I swear. I have tried to quit writing a couple times now, and one time when I tried to quit, I started twining rag rugs. So I was like, I'll be a rug maker. And so I was like stripping all like our old clothes and like making frames and making rag rugs essentially. And they were, really interesting, more like art pieces than rugs, although we use 'em for rugs too.

But then they all slowly morphed into these stories. So each rug, might be made out of like my [00:42:00] old daughter's sling. And then it would have this whole narrative that came along with it, and then I would start, then I'd have to write it down, or they'd turn into poems and I'm like, I can't quit.

I am physically, like consciously trying and giving myself some other like expression, and it just keeps coming back. So I was like, all right I give up. But I also feel like, if that's you, then you do you, and in a way it's, if that's also my form of expression, but also something that I am able to do and I can, I'm fairly okay at, I feel like in some ways it's a gift to be given and shared. Like a gift is a responsibility. And so I gave up and stopped, like criticizing myself being like, oh, it's like self-indulgent, or, oh, it's this or that, and realizing, no, it's not like you have to thrive to be able to give. And regardless if you [00:43:00] know you're doing well, you're touching people, you're showing people, especially your children.

So like when I decided to go back to an MFA program again, I was like, oh, I shouldn't do this. Oh my, I'm gonna leave my children like 10 days for 10 days twice. What's it? Twice a year? 'cause it was a low residency. My son was like two, I think he was even still nursing. He was, if he was two.

Anyways. But I just, I was like, I just need to, I do this right now. And when my daughter found out, she was just, and I've said this before too it. It touched my heart. She was like, mom's going back to school, mom's going back to school. And she didn't go to school. She had no idea what she was saying, but she was so excited for me and proud, and I was like okay. I get it. I gotta do it for them.

Haley Radke: I love that. And you don't realize, but you're also doing it for us. You [00:44:00] meant like it's a gift for us. I read Sidework twice, and this is gonna sound simplistic, but it's so real and authentic and the person that you're describing to us just by how they're treating the server, in the story, it's so quick, it's so fast paced, it's so funny and sharp, and you're making all these societal critiques, and yet it's so easy to read and it just, I, God, genuinely loved it, truly.

Sasha Hom: Thank you.

Haley Radke: And then in, in preparing for this, I read your short story Sidewalks and it moved me so much. I thought, oh my gosh, is this my favorite short story I've read in the last couple years? Like I think it is.

Sasha Hom: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Yes. And now [00:45:00] getting to hear your story from your mouth. I see the pieces of you in Sidework and the pieces of you and Sidewalk and your story and how you blend those things. I really think listeners are gonna just love both of these things. We will link to them in the show notes, but Sidework especially. Congratulations. It's so wonderful.

Sasha Hom: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Yeah,

Sasha Hom: thank you. I really appreciate that.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Sasha Hom: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Is there anything you wanna talk, tell us about Sidework?

Sasha Hom: So I wrote that one. I started it when I was at my MFA program, so I was working on that too. And we were again like moving around and without a place and it was really enjoyable. The book, not the moving around without a place, but the book, it was, I just, and even to this day, like I do a lot of library presentations in Vermont that where I've, I had, I just decided I was gonna do a PowerPoint [00:46:00] for them.

I've never done PowerPoint in my life, so I decided to make this presentation in the book a PowerPoint. But it's been really fun 'cause I include a lot of photos, like old photos of like how we lived in California and in the tent and all my children, and it's like a, what do you call, like a personal narrative presentation of what was going on in my life when I wrote this, what my life looked like.

And as well as. I do readings, so I'll then I'll read excerpts and I'll link it also to like the craft decisions I'm making in the book and how those craft decisions also sprang from our lifestyle choices. And what was the, and there's it's this whole thing and it's been really fun, but it's like popping the hood on the book.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Sasha Hom: And showing you all the what's inside. And I've had readers who like do their library book clubs be like, oh my God. Like when I first read this, I [00:47:00] was like, what is this? Like how do you know? How do I read this? And then to hear me talk about it, they've had these kind of these feelings of, oh wow, that's I wanna read it again or so that, that's been really fun.

It's hard to sell a book from a small press and do all your own marketing.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Sasha Hom: And it's taken a back burner in my life, partly because we have, we raise meat goats and we we're trying to start this program like Heifer International, where individuals can buy meat from us and then we donate it to community organizations who then distribute the meat to people who are food scarce.

I have one organization who supports survivors of torture and trauma in their home countries, so we get it to a lot of refugees and immigrants, refugees especially, who will be losing food stamp benefits soon. So it's, that's what we do. [00:48:00] And we're in a drought in Vermont and we, the way we feed our goats is we rotationally graze 'em.

So we're moving paddocks every single day with electric fencing. So now I'm moving paddocks like twice a day or three times a day, like trying to get these goats food. But yeah. It's just, it's a lot.

Haley Radke: It's a lot. And you get a glimpse into Sasha's life, although it is fiction, but there's for sure pieces of you in this.

Sasha Hom: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. So you and I discussed briefly on email what you wanted to recommend and tell adoptees before we wrap up the show.

Sasha Hom: That was a hard one because I feel like some of, like the support I get for myself as an adoptee and feelings of disconnect and that longing and not knowing [00:49:00] and that mystery, like the solace I get for that sometimes are in more conceptual ideas.

And I think the conceptual ideas that I mentioned, one, and I write about this in Sidework too a little bit, it made its way into that book, but is the idea, and I learned this a while ago as a mother, that when we conceive a child that child's DNA is in our bodies sometimes for decades, whether or not that child is still living even.

And so it was a moment of healing for me, but also to, because immediately I felt like a closeness with my own children and I've had miscarriages and stuff like that. So I also felt like the losses weren't lost, but also recognition that I'm not a loss. I am not lost, and I am not a loss. I am still there with [00:50:00] her and have been for decades.

And I think they've discovered all this like really crazy like science stuff too, in that experience where that the cells and the DNA of that child in the mother can sometimes even help the mother heal from X whatever she might be having. Those cells will go in there and heal her tumor or her cancer contribute in that way or cause autoimmune disease or cause you know so it's still a relationship.

There's still a connection. And then something else that I stumbled upon that gave me pause was this concept of, oh, the atoms that we are made of, every one of us we're born in the heart of a star. And then that star exploded and fell onto the earth. And that is how we, we were somehow like compiled from that dust.

You know [00:51:00] what the scientific accuracy, please go find out yourself because I am no scientist. I am a mother and a writer and a goat farmer, but not a scientist. But just that concept of origin, a shared origin story, but also a shared story of collective transcendence from those origins. And that's also something that I explore.

I just finished my second book that I'm. It's not published yet. It's not represented yet. It's still but I, it's something that I really took up was that idea of collective transcendence and bringing together a group of characters who have suffered through so much trauma and loss and just hardship, and then where they end up and how they keep going even together as this sort of motley group that is only connected in my book, at least by this, [00:52:00] by the fact that we're all at People's Park on the day of Eclipse.

So that's, that was like the premise of it. And then, and how that connects you and how so those are just concepts that I sometimes like to think of and in relationship to who I am as an adoptee and what that means to how that informs even being a human right.

Haley Radke: I love that.

Sasha Hom: So yeah,

Haley Radke: little things we can carry around with ourselves to think of as a comfort. They're not little things, big things. Sasha, where can we find Sidework and follow along to know when you have other work out in this world?

Sasha Hom: Oh, that's a good question. So Sidework is sold on my press's website, which is Black Lawrence Press, B-L-A-C-K, and Lawrence, [00:53:00] L-A-W-R-E-N-C-E. I think it's blacklawrencepress.com.

And also I'm on Instagram. It's either @sashaghom.

Haley Radke: It is sashaghom. Okay.

Sasha Hom: Thank you. Yeah I'm new to Instagram and I was just in Brooklyn for the Brooklyn Book Festival and I stayed with my dear friend who I hadn't seen for 18 years, Minh-Ha Pham, who is like this amazing academic at Pratt, and she had to teach me how to use Instagram.

Haley Radke: But if you wanna see a picture of Sasha's goats, they are on Instagram too.

Sasha Hom: So much goat porn. Oh my God.

Haley Radke: Amazing. What a delight to get to hear from you. I just, I really love your writing, truly just an honor to get to speak with you. Thank you.

Sasha Hom: Thank you. Yeah. What a pleasure it's been to be here and talk about these things and [00:54:00] yeah, it's, and just the fact that you do this podcast, it's just, it's amazing. So thank you.

Haley Radke: I was just reflecting after my conversation with Sasha about. Just how many incredible adoptee creatives there are in this world. And we bring you many authors, of course, of different genres, memoir, fiction, those kinds of things. In Sasha's case, she's writing fiction here with Sidework, but there is so much of her in it and her personal experiences and story that you can tell it's so her anyway, but it's fictional. It's of course, fictionalized character. But besides writers, I don't know if you remember way back in the day. I did a whole series [00:55:00] about adoptees and creativity, and I talked to artists and actors. We had a costume designer and folks who had written their own, one person shows to a whole production where someone could come and walk through their imagined childhood home with adoption artifacts throughout.

And we've been working at trying to tell people what the adoptee experience is like for years and years. Before I ever started a podcast. And I just think it's so incredible, and to me it's inspiring that Sasha could talk about making rag rugs, and as she's weaving them, there's this story because of [00:56:00] the fabric that she's chosen and how we can do that in our own lives.

I'm really thinking about this because I'm working on this other podcast and I'm sure we'll be sharing how you can support that. And soon, if we haven't already. It's coming. It's coming. I'm just, I'm working ahead while I'm recording this. I am thinking of this because I'm, we're telling stories of adoption so that the general public can understand its impact.

And I'm so grateful that so many of you have gone before me to share in your own special way and whether or not you're an artist. As you share your personal story with your, your friends or your close to you, the people that you feel safe with, it impacts their view of adoption and helps [00:57:00] them start to critique the adoption system.

And all of those moments matter and shift things. I really believe that. So I was digging for something in my app called Bear. I don't know if you've ever used that. It's like a notes app, but prettier. I started using it I think in 2017. And so I was just searching for a document, which ultimately was not there, but it brought up this letter that I had written in 2017 to someone who asked me about adopting, they were thinking of adopting, and I brought up the letter and I looked at it and it was long, and I was like, I can't believe I sent this letter.

It literally outlined all the same critiques I'm making today. [00:58:00] This many years later, and I just felt really proud of past Haley for saying those things out loud to someone privately. And now I'm gonna say those things out loud publicly and have been really, but publicly in a different way. I don't know. I'm just, I'm really thrilled that there is this work being made. Sasha's work is Sidework is about this character who works in a diner and the whole morning that's what it is. It's the morning of work and it's all the tasks that she needs to do. And all the people she serves and the people that she works with and their stories and little vignettes here and there.

It's really remarkable. And through that she critiques adoption. How about that? I [00:59:00] just think us adoptees are pretty special. Anyway, thanks for allowing me to carry on here with my little I was gonna say rant. It's not a rant, just the thoughtful vignette for you to chew on and decide. How are you gonna share your story?

And is it through a creative outlet? Is it through a conversation to a friend and sharing little pieces of yourself on social media or what? I don't know. I hope you do. Thank you so much for listening and for listening to adoptee voices in particular, and let's talk again soon.

310 Mirella Stoyanova

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/310

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Mirella Stoyanova is our guest today. And I don't normally say this, but this was one of my favorite conversations in recent memory. Mirella is a therapist and writer, and her insights dazzled me. We talk about her experience being adopted at age five, and what coming to America from Bulgaria was like.

We discuss the what ifs of kinship adoption, living in the both and of grief and gratitude, and she shares an insight that stops me in my tracks. Do adoptees reflect an existential crisis [00:01:00] back to society? We mention violence and suicide at multiple points during this conversation, so please take care when deciding when to listen.

Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On Mirella Stoyanova. Hello, Mirella. So good to talk with you.

Mirella Stoyanova: Hi Haley. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I've been looking forward to it for months.

Haley Radke: Me too. Okay. The first time I took note of you was at the Adoptee Literary Festival where you read a [00:02:00] piece in the sizzle reel and you were so captivating. I immediately went to my guest list and wrote your info down, so I'd love it if you would start by sharing your story with us.

Mirella Stoyanova: Oh my goodness. Where to begin? I am. I'm a writer. I'm a therapist. I always like to say I'm a recovering perfectionist, but I am.

Haley Radke: I say that too.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah. Do you?

Haley Radke: That's so funny. I've said that for years. Yes.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah. I'm also an international adoptee, and I worked in the field I was a crisis worker. For the five years after graduate school and then I became licensed as a clinical social worker. So I'm a practicing therapist in the Seattle area, and I have experience working with [00:03:00] individuals and families in pretty much every context you can think of.

From acute trauma to the outpatient mental health that I do now. And I'm also a mother of a 2-year-old son, and I live, as I said in, in the Seattle area with my husband and my son.

Haley Radke: So you have one of those unique circumstances because I talked to a lot of infant adoptees and hold on a second they're adults now, but were placed for adoption as an infant.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah.

Haley Radke: But in your circumstances, an intervention really was necessary. Do you care to share that part of your childhood?

Mirella Stoyanova: I was adopted at five years old. I was actually speaking with a friend this morning who was also an older adoptee and a fan of the show, and he was like, represent the older [00:04:00] adoptees. So here I am representing, you know who you are. I was adopted from Bulgaria to the United States at five years old. My parents had died a year and a half before in the very, very early nineties, and my grandmother, who was caring for me, happened to be dying of cancer, so she had to figure out what was going to become of my future and the country where I was born bulgaria was newly democratic. There was. An effort in the country to expatriate the Muslim minority who were Turkish and who from her perspective, my grandmother's perspective looked very much like me, and [00:05:00] Eastern Europe was a dangerous place for a newly orphaned child. So she found my adoptive parents about a year before I left, and while she entertained the idea of me being adopted by various families pretty early on, she decided that I would go with 'em.

And of course, the myth from the adoption side as the, the story goes that my parents had three boys, biological children, and they were trying for a girl. They were considering trying for a girl and they had friends of theirs who also had three boys and were trying for a girl, and instead of getting a girl, they got pregnant with twin boys.

And so the story is that was when my parents decided they wanted to adopt and they [00:06:00] had tried to adopt another little girl from Bulgaria before me. Who was actually in an orphanage, but her birth mother came to reclaim her because she had not consented to adoption. And this little girl was there because her mother couldn't afford to take care of her.

And in my case, I came to the United States with an entire history that I remembered pretty well. I came here with a lot of grief, unresolved grief and trauma, and a lot of questions that went on unanswered for many years. And I guess that's where the story ends, right? From the narrative, the non adoptee narrative. Anyway, it was happily ever after from there.

Haley Radke: Sure. I'm sure it was. What a gift. So in my research, I [00:07:00] think I understood correctly that your birth mother was also an adoptee herself.

Mirella Stoyanova: She was.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Mirella Stoyanova: My birth mother was adopted and I've never, I've always wanted, but have never been able to search for my, I've been discouraged from searching for my biological maternal grandparents because the system, the government, in Bulgaria is notoriously bureaucratic. Like they shut down over the summer just because it's summer kind of thing, and it takes a long time to get anything done. But recently a woman who's Bulgarian who had someone in her family was adopted, reached out to me and she shared that the Bulgarian court system recently has unsealed the records of adoptions in the country and [00:08:00] depending on, whether you can present them with the right information, they may be able to unseal the records. So I don't know that I can, as the daughter of my deceased birth mother, but I think that will certainly be, a question that I ask and explore in the coming years for sure.

Haley Radke: Interesting. So your grandmother was her adoptive mother? And she also adopted you once your parents had died.

Mirella Stoyanova: She did.

Haley Radke: So you're double.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah. Yes. I'm a second generation adoptee.

Haley Radke: And twice adopted.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yes. And twice adopted. Yes. And I'm half Iraqi, half Bulgarian. My, my parents died by murder, suicide. [00:09:00] My grandmother. She felt it would be unconscionable for me to be adopted by my paternal family. But my paternal family did seek out adoption. In fact, they put in the paperwork for adoption. But

Haley Radke: Were they also in Bulgaria?

Mirella Stoyanova: With the Bulgarian government? Yeah. And there was a real effort to prevent me from being raised by them. Because of, I think what were very natural and normal, but also from the perspective of my paternal family, like very hurtful reasoning, which was, that I could be re-traumatized because I witnessed the event of my parents' deaths. [00:10:00] And, the thought of me being raised by people who resembled my birth father didn't seem like a good idea.

And of course, the blind spot was, I also resemble my birth father. And so for many years, I had I realized this is being recorded, people won't see me, but I even wanted to bring you, just to show you, I have this, it's a photo album and it's got about 30 pictures in it, and for about 20 years, that's all I had, as far as my awareness and connection to anyone who looked like me.

Haley Radke: You have this other unique perspective of having worked in I'll call it child welfare for a period of time and uniquely your parents were unable to parent, your grandmother unable to [00:11:00] parent as she passed quite shortly after you were adopted. We have people ask us all the time is adoption even necessary? What would you do? And you have a very different vantage point than someone like me who's an infant adoptee who I think it was unnecessary. What are your thoughts on that?

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah, I think in my case it was maybe also unnecessary in some ways, although having been raised and benefited from certain advantages that I wouldn't have otherwise. I see the nuance of that perspective, and I'm glad for the life that I've had. I wouldn't say I'm entirely grateful. I think there's a lot of complexity in that, but Bulgarian law says that a child is only eligible for foreign adoption after they've been offered for adoption to three Bulgarian families.

And anyone in their biological [00:12:00] family, and that like regulation was not followed in my case. And okay, it might not have been entirely necessary for me. I, it was necessary for me to be adopted. Absolutely. I needed to be raised by someone. And the alternative of going to an orphanage was certainly not something that my, my grandmother wanted for me, but was it necessary for me to come to the United States?

Was it necessary for me to be adopted cross-culturally? I'm not sure. As a former child welfare worker. I actually, I went to graduate school. The reason why I went to graduate school originally was because I was going to use that as a foundation for going to get my legal degree [00:13:00] and doing global child welfare policy advocacy.

And so my personal opinion, which is informed by years of research and also on the ground experience, which was, initially how I became a social worker, is that we have to support families, first of all to stay together in whatever capacity they can when a child truly becomes adoptable.

Obviously the existence of adoption points to insufficiencies in our infrastructure, social infrastructure to support children and families, right? But then, if a child is adopted or placed in foster care, we have to work to make sure that [00:14:00] family is supported on a community level and that the infrastructure is there for that child to be raised within the context of a connected and loving and supportive environment where they have themselves as they are truly reflected back to them. And that's not the case for so many of us, regardless of what our stories are.

Haley Radke: So we're gonna live in the both and for a moment.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And if you had access to. Let's call it trauma informed care at the time, because, I haven't commented, I'm so sorry for, the horrific way that your parents died and the impact that's had, of course, on your life.

I'm very sorry. And so if you had that sort of [00:15:00] trauma-informed care, which I don't know, was that available, you're younger than me to go with your paternal family, do you think, like looking back are you like, I don't know, like it's so complex. Like I get it, I get why people made the choices they made and weren't sure about this, and that.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Do you wish that's the direction they would've gone?

Mirella Stoyanova: I see it both ways because I see the harm that it caused within that family. My paternal biological relatives who I reconnected with after that, after the end of my first year of graduate school. I see it both ways. There was a giant rupture in their, in the fabric of their family.

And I don't know. I don't, I think, I don't think actually, because there's also a really complex conversation about [00:16:00] patriarchal violence, which is baked into to not only my story, but the story of adoption. And also there's like a cultural component of that I'm not sure could have been overcome.

I wanna believe that it could have, but I don't know. And I like to stay in that place of not knowing because it, it allows me to connect in ways that I think I wouldn't otherwise be able to. So I think that the answer to your question is probably not. When I was adopted, by the time I was adopted, I'd had a year and a half of being cared for by who could care for me.

I went to school at kind of an elite boarding school, preschool in [00:17:00] Sofia, and so I spent time going to the school and then when I wasn't at that school, if my grandmother was feeling well enough, she would take me, but oftentimes she wasn't. And so I spent time with others who were designated to make sure that I wasn't like falling through the cracks.

So I arrived with a year and a half's worth of grief work that I was behind on and trauma recovery that I was behind on. And I actually had the very good fortune of working with at the time, one of the top adoption, attachment and adoption therapist in the Seattle area. Deborah Gray, who's written the book, Attaching in Adoption.

But at that time, I still needed a lot and given the family that I [00:18:00] grew up in and their, I think sort of the lack of awareness of what it would entail to adopt someone at an older age with those sets of issues, it wasn't going to be enough, unless they were gonna be able to. Do their own work. Understand what's unsettling about having an adoptee who's in pain, who has a story like the story that I had.

Haley Radke: What was it like to come to the US? Here's your new white family with three big older brothers.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah,

Haley Radke: That I can't imagine, did they come to get you? Were you, did you go on the plane and they met you here? What happened?

Mirella Stoyanova: Without telling the story itself, what I will say is that it was an exercise in cognitive dissonance, [00:19:00] a 15 to 20 year exercise. And in some ways it still continues because on one hand there's the story that family creates about who you are as an adoptee joining their family.

And on the other hand, as a person who was adopted at age five, I had my own set of memories and feelings and thoughts about my experience. That were not always congruent with the narrative that my family wanted to tell about my belonging to them. And I experienced that at multiple levels. I experienced that at the level of, I used to always write [00:20:00] this in my journal.

I would say, I had a life before you knew me. I had a life before you knew me. Like I wanted them to know that. Which didn't totally get honored. There was a lot of pain that like they didn't have the capacity to recognize and a lot of just, not even pain, but like my identity, they didn't have the capacity to recognize.

But then there was also the issue of my ethnic and cultural difference. And I am racially ambiguous. People look at me and the first words out of their mouth are, what are you? Which is very, it becomes funny the more you are on the receiving end of it. But funny, not funny, right? And you look at me, I have curly hair and tan skin, and you know how I move through the world is [00:21:00] as someone who is ethnically different, and actually I've been mis race, so it's partially also racial difference. And then if you have a family who's reflecting back to you that they're just looking at you because you're beautiful, they're just, there's nothing wrong. They're not treating you any different. We don't treat you any different. It becomes really confusing and difficult to know. How to be in the world.

Haley Radke: I have a couple thoughts. One is for families who collect another person because of their gender. That's weird.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah.

Haley Radke: But common, and the other thing, as you were talking, you've, you referenced this in a few of your different pieces, but I'm just gonna read from your piece in Write or Die Lost Side Effects May Include you say, my new mother says she can't compete with an angel, but no matter how hard I try, I can't forget the mother who [00:22:00] died. So I do not invoke her memory in the presence of my new mother, who is also jealous that I have taken to my new father instead of her.

Are you comfortable talking about that a little bit or does that say it all?

Mirella Stoyanova: Let me think about this, my adoptive mother she died a year and a half ago. And it's so funny because even though people pass from our lives, those relationships continue and in so many ways ours has. But what I can say about her is that she had her own set of expectations about what having a daughter would mean that were created through her own unresolved childhood needs, unmet childhood needs, and when I didn't fill those needs, [00:23:00] and of course I couldn't because I came as a complete human being child. It was very disappointing and she had a lot of negative feelings about that, that she directed toward me in so many ways throughout my upbringing.

And my mother also happened to be someone who had some mental health issues that meant she operated at two speeds. And so how those expectations got refracted into our relationship was very fraught. I was very afraid of saying and doing the wrong things constantly. Felt like I was disappointing her or that I could never live up to her expectations because also the other side of it is her longing never [00:24:00] could be stated. What is this saying that we can never get enough of what we don't need. She was looking for answers in the entirely wrong place she was putting that on a child. And now, I look at it with a little bit more complexity because I am a mother myself.

And I, I also recognize that what so much of what was scary to me about my mother was the life in her. Very early on the scope of what was possible and a life was made very apparent. I witnessed a murder suicide, so you know, I was very afraid of some of those natural and normal parts of what make life life, it was intense emotions, the uncertainty of relationships, and even just [00:25:00] engaging in life in a way that meant you were taking risks. I didn't wanna do that. And she, that was her all the way. That's who she was. She was, flying by the seat of her pants and scared me.

Haley Radke: So she passed just after you became a mother?

Mirella Stoyanova: She did.

Haley Radke: How's your perspective changed on that since having your son?

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah. One of the things is that, motherhood has completely shifted the way I experience myself as a, an adoptee. So my son is two now, and there were sort of other things going on at the time, but I was really thinking a lot about both through my writing work and my work as a therapist, what makes the experience of being an adoptee universal.

[00:26:00] And I don't know how it registered or when necessarily there was, but there was one sort of particular moment in the recent past where I was viewing my son, I was like. I don't know. My husband and I, we both work from home and each day we're, walking around the house, we come into the kitchen or places where my son is with the person who cares for him during the day and it's always so hard. It's always so hard to leave him. And there was a moment where I was reflecting on the pain of leaving him and how he cries out for me and how that pain is, it's reciprocal. Like he's crying out for me because we're separated and it's really uncomfortable for me to be separated from him or to hear him crying somewhere else.

And I think I stumbled onto this insight that [00:27:00] his pain of being separate is not unlike the pain that I experienced as a newly orphaned child who was taken from, who lost my mother and was taken from my community, my country, there's a pain of separation there. And shortly after realizing that I started looking around and thinking to myself, that is the pain that I feel with my son, but that's also the pain I feel, in other relationships and other facets of my life. That pain of separation, that pain of disconnect, and it was a revelation for me because what I thought made me so different as an adoptee and as someone who's experienced [00:28:00] multiple iterations of capital T, trauma in my life is actually the thing that binds me with all humans. And I might argue all living things, right? And so I've just been, I've really been reflecting on that. And I was preparing for this talk and I listened to the most recent of your conversations with Pam Carano in the healing series that you do. And you asked a question about like, why do you think people, maybe people who are like adoptive parents or non- adoptees or muggles, I think as she likes to call them. Aren't willing to look at, you were, I think you were talking about like the nothing place, right?

Haley Radke: Yes.

Mirella Stoyanova: And I, I truly think that as adoptees we're mirroring back the physical [00:29:00] reality of an existential problem that other people who are not adopted will do anything most of the time to get out of thinking about, we have entire industries, the wellness industry, the gosh, the dating industry, the anti-aging industry, that their whole thing is like to keep you from, or maybe to help help you feel more in control and to keep you from thinking about the reality that you know, you are born alone, you die alone. Sorry to be so uplifting here, but you are alone. You are alone. And no amount of things you can buy are going to, keep you from that reality. And as, as adoptees, as people who are, system involved. Children in the foster care [00:30:00] system who age out into adulthood who've had these really nuanced experiences, we're reflecting back a reality that is very uncomfortable for people to sit with. And so I think this narrative of like sad story with a happy ending, it's more palatable. Then you became a part of something, then you belonged again.

You were alone and now you're not. We're all alone. We're all alone. And it's okay. That's part of it. Because the other thing is like how beautiful that we keep reaching for connection. How beautiful that we are still reaching for each other and doing the work of iterating in what ways we can, that we are not alone.

Haley Radke: Mirella, I think you just connected something for me that I've thought about for years. You mentioned cognitive dissonance earlier. This is the [00:31:00] thing that pisses me off so much is that cognitive dissonance. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you were adopted. Oh my gosh. I love the reunion story.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And it's like I've always had that gap in I don't get it. Why don't people connect that for there to be the happy reunion then there is the separation, and I think you nailed it there. I think that's what it is. We have to cover up the fear middle of we can't be alone, we can't be with ourselves. We're,

Mirella Stoyanova: It's a deeply existential concern bordering on spiritual, and people don't wanna think about it because it's uncomfortable to be faced with the reality of that truth of our experience. And so that dominant narrative of adoption, that's what we wanna reach for, and I had the unique experience recently.

I, I wrote [00:32:00] something very brief and it was in an attempt to connect with other adoptees, but it was posted on Facebook or something. And the reaction to this like brief snippet of my story was, there were some beautiful and kind comments and there were some really atrocious, but also predictable comments that reflected back something about the discomfort that stirred up in whoever it was that wrote what they did.

And a lot of it was like, so nothing positive happened, so you're not grateful. Some of it was go back to your own country, which was an interesting one for me 'cause I hold a United States passport, there's that, but I was really struck by what it reflected, which is like we as a society are not really set up.

There isn't an emotional [00:33:00] infrastructure for understanding and sitting with the discomfort of cognitive dissonance that both and, that two things can be true at once. That level of complexity and nuance. And it really creates a lot of pain for people in relationships. Personal pain. For me, I came into adulthood with a lot of relational disconnect.

In part because I had no idea who I was. It was so uncomfortable. It was, and this is a common like adoptee story is like we're trying to fit in, so we do everything we can, and then as a result, we don't know who we are. We have little self-acceptance, so we can't really understand who we are and in relation to other people.

And a lot of that is like learning to be okay with who I am. And if as an adoptee you're straddling all of these [00:34:00] lines, someone is telling you who you are and that doesn't fit with how you know yourself or what your experience is. It's gonna create a lot of relational disconnect.

Haley Radke: And I think, so you're a therapist, so you can tell me, and I wanna hear about how you came to, to choose that profession. But as you're talking through those things, I think, yeah, and ultimately, of course, adoptees are human, and the human experiences too have pain and suffering and all those things. And for us, like I really feel like the, quote unquote healing journey. This is gonna sound so cliche, just go with me. Is literally learning to love ourselves. And when we have that big black hole carved out and you say, love yourself, that's the fix. It's okay, but I, how do you love the black hole that's, it's a void. I can't see it. I can't, it, it feels impossible to overcome that. [00:35:00]

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah, I think if we were to like go deeper on that, which I don't think it's cliche, I think it just, it needs some conveyance of what is it that we're looking at. You can't love or accept yourself if you don't know who you are and whatever that means to you. Whether it's, I don't have the life experience to understand who the self is that is navigating this world, or I'm confused because somebody told me who I was or who I should be, and that doesn't match with how I move through the world.

But if we don't know who we are, we don't know where we end and where other people begin, we're not then able to form healthy [00:36:00] boundaries or relationships with other people because everything is a negotiation. And how many adoptees have you spoken with Haley, who you know have talked about being chameleons, right?

Some people say it's our superpower and it was certainly mine and sometimes I feel myself pulled to try to figure that out, and be that version of who, someone is expecting me to be. But I do think the healing work comes from uncovering who we are truly. And for so many adoptees, that question is complicated by not having access to information and whether you need that information or not to really know who you [00:37:00] are. It's like this whole other conversation that we could go into probably great depth about. But unless you can really do that work of articulating to yourself a version of who you are that you can accept.

It's gonna be really hard to see the difference between who it is I truly am and how I move through the world, and the stories that other people have about who I am and how I move through the world.

Haley Radke: What led you to becoming a therapist? And I think now after people hearing you with your insights here, they're gonna be lining up.

Mirella Stoyanova: I didn't know I wanted to become a therapist until I topped out in the child welfare work that I was doing and realized that no amount of advancing [00:38:00] through that goal that I'd had for so many years was going to be satisfying for me. It was like recognizing that, that I was in so many ways trying to be someone I was not, and I really more than anything wanted to be who I was. That was where I was in my own sort of healing journey at the time.

Haley Radke: Cause you also had the idea of going on to law, right? Yeah. And so that, that didn't pan out or I don't know.

Mirella Stoyanova: No, I actually just course corrected.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Mirella Stoyanova: And some of it was that I went through a health crisis in my twenties. I withdrew from topical steroids, used to treat childhood eczema for many years, and that was like a four and a half year long process that involved basically my body just like completely rebelling against what I was trying to do, which was like clear it from my [00:39:00] system. And it was at that time that I was like, what?

What is gonna make me happy? What is it like if nothing changes if I'm in this physical pain that I've been in for these many number of years, if nothing changes for the rest of my life, like how am I gonna be with myself? What is it that I need to live a satisfying and meaningful life? And at that point, I'd actually been pursuing my clinical licensure for three years without really having an intention of sitting for the exam.

And I was in my life outside of work, I was reading theoretical texts about psychology and healing and all these things. So that was the point at which I was like, yeah, no, I think I want to become a therapist. And about a year later I went and I worked at Seattle Children's in the inpatient psych unit and [00:40:00] studied under a really wonderful behavioralist who's done a lot of great work for adolescents on mood management type stuff. But then I also had this, really extensive background and interest in like existential and Buddhist psychology and that happened to lend really well to the work I do as a therapist. So I then opened my private practice in 2018 and I've been seeing clients ever since.

Haley Radke: Amazing. Thank you for your service to the folks that need your guidance. I know you work with adoptees also in addition to muggles, I'll call them.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And you have an expertise in racial reclamation as well, and can speak to those things too. [00:41:00] Is there anything that we didn't really talk about yet that you want to make sure that you share with listeners?

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah, it's an expertise in racial reclamation or racial conscientization. There's also the trauma recovery piece that I do, and also working with folks like around perfectionism. I work with a lot of like high performers who struggle with feelings of, as it happens inadequacy. So you know, that's an area where I do a lot of sort of in-depth work. I have notes, but I haven't looked at them today. I feel like we touched on so much.

Haley Radke: We did. We touched on some really deep things that I didn't anticipate us talking about, but I think it was so impactful.

Mirella Stoyanova: I'm glad. I have, the two books that I was thinking [00:42:00] about, what I would wanna recommend to anyone on their own journey and some of the, foundational texts and how I approach healing in general, but also, that stemmed from my own sort of healing journey.

Haley Radke: Yeah. You go first, what are the books you wanna recommend to us?

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah, I've got, Complex PTSD From Surviving to Thriving Pete Walker's work on complex PTSD, which I feel would be really relevant for this audience, as well as a very beautiful book called Healing Through the Dark Emotions: The Wisdom of Grief, Fear, and Despair, and it's written by Miriam Greenspan, who is the daughter of concentration camp survivors, and has a lot of really solid and [00:43:00] beautiful work around, how we can relate skillfully to difficult emotions.

Haley Radke: When you sent me the the complex PTSD book, I looked it up and I thought, oh my goodness, this would be so helpful for people to work through, especially if they feel that or have been diagnosed with PTSD or C-P-T-S-D. It's great. Thank you so much for recommending them. So your writing is really incredible, and I told you right at the start your reading on that sizzle reel is what just captivated me. And I've read all the pieces that you've got publicized on your website and we'll link to those in the show notes. But I just feel like your writing is it's reflective, it's evocative. You can hear how Mirella you shared with us today, and I feel like you, you write in that just such a thoughtful way so I know you have a memoir, you're querying [00:44:00] around, so you know, let's get this girl signed people.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah, I wrote a book about a crisis I faced when I got engaged in 2020. And I couldn't shake the feeling that I was living a double life or a life that was, written according to what somebody else wanted.

And I realized that I needed to reckon with my past or risk losing my relationship and pretty much everything, that by that point I had worked really hard to build, it was like over a decade of healing and self work. And I was in crisis thinking that, if I really looked at my relationship, I was going to blow it all to pieces and so that's what the memoir is about. And hopefully, right now I am. The thing about writing and pursuing traditional publication is you realize, you're, you write and then you rewrite, and then you rewrite again, and you think you're done. [00:45:00] But you're really reaching some kind of threshold of more nuanced understanding.

And I am going to be, I'm currently, I'm revising again. To take my book back out and re-query it in 2026.

Haley Radke: Okay. We're all cheering you on. Thank you. I'm gonna link to these pieces, but the one that really spoke to me was Loss, Side Effects May Include, and then you wrote in Business Insider, which I'll tell you, it scared me a little bit and I practiced earlier.

I was adopted as a child by an American family. They still can't pronounce my name correctly. Girl when you wrote Mirella, I was like, I grew up on Anne of Green Gables. Okay? And so then that stuck in my head and I was like, dear God, that I cannot say that today.

Mirella Stoyanova: You didn't.

Haley Radke: So I hope I did okay anyway.

Mirella Stoyanova: And I think I've, I think I've probably scared a lot of people, but honestly it was just a an honest expression [00:46:00] of exasperation I felt at having spent 18 years of my life trying to ask for my name to be pronounced correctly and with some individuals in my family it's been harder than with others, but names are so reflective of who we are. They're an expression of identity. And when somebody, even if someone isn't saying your name when they try, it's about conveying that you're seen and we all wanna be seen.

Haley Radke: Oh yeah, I totally agree. Okay. And so my assistant, actually anyone that's worked for me, that is one of the very first things we talk about is I'm like every guest's name is gonna be spelled correctly, and I'm not gonna see any name spelled incorrectly. And so I always make this point of making sure I say people's names correctly. But I know I don't always get [00:47:00] it quite right, but it's so important. I totally agree. And it to the degree where I have multiple friends who've changed their name as their identity reclamation project.

Mirella Stoyanova: Yeah, I have as well.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Mirella Stoyanova: Stoyanova was is my, it's my pre-adoptive middle name and the family name of my grandmother and my birth mother.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Mirella Stoyanova: So it's, of course it's complicated because there's like the whole eastern European like Bulgarian nomenclature. Thing. But I did, I ended up reclaiming that.

And I have my married name, but I write under my pre-adoptive name.

Haley Radke: I love that.

Mirella Stoyanova: It's very significant.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah, totally. So please go and check out Mirella's writing Mirella's writing.

Mirella Stoyanova: There you go. That's okay. It's okay.

Haley Radke: You know it's not hard. I don't know why I'm struggling.

Mirella Stoyanova: It's not about saying it right. It's about the [00:48:00] intention.

Haley Radke: So we'll linked to those in the show things in the show notes, but where can we connect with you and cheer you on in your search for finding this publisher?

Mirella Stoyanova: I am on Instagram. I love connecting with folks there because it's a place that exists at the cross section of my personal and professional lives, but I also right now have a website for my writing work that will in the new year, also be a website for my therapy practice as well. And you right now, it has the link to my therapy practice, but it's just a writing focused page. And that's mirellastoyanova.com.

Haley Radke: Perfect. We'll link to those both in the show notes so you can click through easily and follow. Thank you so much. What an honor so much to speak to you today. I really enjoyed our time together.

Mirella Stoyanova: I'm so [00:49:00] honored to be here. I'm, I was so happy when you asked, and thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to be here.

Haley Radke: Okay. Chat did. Okay. First of all, did you know that's what the cool kids talk like these days, chat. Like they just call everybody chat. I do it and my kids, roll their eyes at me anyway. Okay. Chat. I want to know. What you think about Mirella's insight with us, reflecting back to culture, this idea that there's a fear of being alone and our existence and our complete disconnection from our biological origins shows them you too could be alone. I wanna know what you think about that. And come to [00:50:00] Instagram, put it in the comments for this episode. I'm fascinated by it. I have, I truly, I have thought about this nonstop since we had this conversation and I think she's onto something. So I think these ideas that keep coming out the nothing place this existential, crisis theory, these are really worth talking about because they help us understand ourselves better and they help us talk about adoption in a way that the general population can understand. 'Cause isn't that what we want? We want them to understand the truth of our experiences, the pain, the both and the trauma, all of those things.

Because if they understood us better, perhaps we could lessen the amount of [00:51:00] unnecessary adoptions. Perhaps we could halt them all together. Perhaps we could have more supports for adult adoptees for current growing up adoptees. Imagine what a world. Anyway, come to the comments and let us know.

And if you are listening to this around when it airs, I just wanna remind you. I'm gonna be in New York City to attend the Adoptee Film Fest. Also celebrating with Sullivan Summer, the launch of her chatbook into the world. And it sounds like that's the name of her chatbook. Performance Anxiety is the name of her Chatbook.

And so I'll be there celebrating with her and I would love to meet you. We would love to see you there. So we'll have links to those events in the show notes. That's happening in November, 2025. And of course, if you're listening in the future we missed you. Perhaps we'll see you next year. Okay.

[00:52:00] Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again very soon.

309 Megan Hunter, MBA

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/309

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to adoptees on the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. It is such an honor to bring you today's guest, Megan Hunter. Megan is known as the conflict influencer and is the co-founder of the High Conflict Institute. We get to know Megan's personal story today, including her reunion.

Megan shares about how she first connected with her birth mother about a gut wrenching experience with her biological father that resurfaced an adoptee wound, and she offers us advice in navigating new reunion relationships, including both the complex and the beautiful [00:01:00] sides. Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Megan Hunter. Hi, Megan.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Hello. Hi, Haley. Hi everyone. Thanks for having me.

Haley Radke: What an honor to talk to you. I'd love it if you would start the way we normally do. Would you share some of your story with us?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Adoptee story business. I'm usually doing business podcasts, so, or conflict podcasts. So that's what I'm used to talking about.

Haley Radke: I know we're going to the personal today. How about that?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Not the personal side. Alright, we can do that. I was adopted at the age of two months. [00:02:00] So my biological parents are, they were, you know, last year of high school, senior year, and the relationship didn't last, and I was born in September.

So what would've been their. I guess their freshman year of college. So they chose to place me for adoption and I guess I went to a foster home for a couple of months and I was told it was a wonderful one. And then I was adopted by some really wonderful people in Nebraska. So I grew up on a farm. And had two, I had an older sister who was my parent, my adoptive parent's, natural child, and then they'd lost two children before she was born.

Very tra you know, sadly with some heart problems. So they had her, she also had the heart problems, but she survived it. And at that point, I think they were like. This is too painful to try to have more children. You know, genetically, there's obviously something wrong, but they wanted more [00:03:00] kids, so they adopted a boy and then two years later adopted another boy, and then two years later adopted me.

So I'm the youngest of four and grew up my whole life knowing I was adopted, which I'm so grateful for because I know a few people who didn't know for a long time, and that's just been a painful journey for them, or painful new piece of news too, to absorb and assimilate. So yeah, I was grateful for that.

And I'm sure there'll be lots of, lots of questions about the whole, all of it. But I guess the, the fast forward part is in my twenties, I was about 24 or 25 when I was flipping through television stations and I just, just flipping through, you know how you, so you're like on something for two seconds before you flip to the next thing.

At least back in the old days. I don't even think we do that anymore.

Haley Radke: No. You just like, look up what you wanna watch and there it is. Right.

Megan Hunter, MBA: I just realized that. Yeah. Right.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: We used [00:04:00] to do that. I, I mean, like I grew up when we didn't even have remotes so ancient, but, so I'm flipping through. See, I, I lived in Nebraska, but we got Colorado news stations and networks and things, and there was a Colorado news, a TV sh, you know, news show on, and I just caught in those two seconds adoptees.

So I went back to that station and they had this story about Colorado had just opened their birth records to adoptees for six months. You had a window. And so I followed up, I'll followed through and I think I paid $125 or something very, very nominal for. They assigned me to a intermediary who had access then to whatever records were available, and she tracked down my birth grand maternal grandmother and that led her to my biological mom, birth mother.[00:05:00]

I told her, you know, like I didn't have any expectations of ever, ever meeting anyone, but I, I was interested in medical information. I mean, I was honest and authentic about that, but, so she did write me a letter back and gave me, you know, some medical information, but there were no names or any identifying information included, and I didn't expect it.

I didn't give her mine. And then about three months later, after a couple of letters, maybe the intermediary called and said, your birth mother would like to talk to you. So, I don't know, within a day or two we were on the phone and this thing I'd been, you know, thinking about for 25 years was suddenly happening.

I had this, this, the, the dream, the fantasy, you know, that we all create in our head about who they are and what they look like and all that. Well, I was born in the Vietnam War era. I knew my bio father had gone into the military, [00:06:00] so I, in my fantasy mind, he was dead. I just thought, you know, Vietnam. So that was my story.

Well, it turns out he was very much alive and still is. So, so I got to, I got to meet him first, and he didn't have any other children. I was it. And then I met my birth mother. Probably sometime in the next six months or so, and she had four kids that were born after me and three daughters and a son. So I've gotten to know all them and then her husband and you know, now it's been over 25 years. So I have some experience now.

Haley Radke: You do. You so do. And because you're an expert in conflict resolution, you have all these skills for sure. Now that would help I'm sure, in difficult reunion situations. How about when you were 25, 26, 27 and those difficult things come up? [00:07:00] Can you remember anything that was particularly challenging?

Megan Hunter, MBA: At the beginning, I was just in my twenties. I think I was just full of life and exuberant and it was like, oh, this is great, you know? So I just kind of accepted. I was very accepting of everyone and I wasn't cautious. At all. I just went full in like, oh, this is so exciting. And so there wasn't conflict in the beginning, I would say took about a decade for the skeletons to come outta the closet.

You know, it was kind of like we're all putting our, our best foot forward, you know, in our shiny faces. And as we all know, in every family there's some skeletons somewhere and some conflict. So when those things came up, I didn't necessarily know how to handle them. Well, and I, I wouldn't say I was in the conflict, but I just had funny feelings.

Haley Radke: Hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: So on my, my bio dad side there was, there was no conflict [00:08:00] me with anyone, but he and his siblings had tons of conflict, and so I could step back and watch this from afar and it's like, yeah, this is great. I don't have to be in it. Birth mother's side of the family, you know, they had their dynamics, their sibling histories and all of that, and again, I wasn't part of it.

So when they had big conflict, I was still this outsider. Now in my adoptive family, loads of conflict, high conflict. So I, I finally reached a point where I realized that when you come from an adoptive place and you know, all these families, plus I'd been married, had that family, got divorced, got remarried have family. You have a lot of family now, and I realized that with every family comes that some of those skeletons, some of that conflict history, you know, drama and it can be too much. I [00:09:00] felt overwhelmed because there was too much drama in many of the families, most of them. So I think as an adoptee, that was really challenging for me. Even though I could step back from some of it, it still affected me. So if you want me to focus on. A back breaker of a conflict. I can do that.

Haley Radke: Well, as you were talking, I was thinking like sometimes we are the skeletons in the closet when we come back and find, right?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And so

Megan Hunter, MBA: I was.

Haley Radke: Yes. Did your siblings know about you on your maternal side? No. So they have to just, mom has to share that secret.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yep. She'd never shared with anyone. Except her mother.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. That can be so difficult in relationship. Just that.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah. And she's a very private person and I'm a talker, you know, and I'm exuberant and she's very private and quiet. So that was, was difficult, but it was [00:10:00] so kind that she did share this information with her family and they accepted me completely open armed.

Haley Radke: Hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: And I have wonderful relationships with a couple of my sisters, and there's just, that's been just a highlight in my life.

Haley Radke: Oh, I'm so glad for you, Megan. That's wonderful. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you, you, you gotta share the doozy because, you know, we're all waiting to hear. You're like, Haley, you have to ask that. I will, I will.

Megan Hunter, MBA: A little, little teaser there. Yeah, and I, I, I'm willing to share this because I think as adoptees we do deal with something different than non- adoptees and I, I think it's at a cellular level. So on my birth father's side, like I said, there was a lot of conflict in that family, and if they would get together for a gathering, it would last a day or two. And then like there's a blow up and then they're making booking tickets to go fly home immediately and that kind of thing. I would go [00:11:00] visit my paternal grandmother. And I realized I could handle about 12 hours before I felt exhausted and kind of overwhelmed and like needed to get outta there, right?

So you know I had probably known him 15 years or so, and my bio dad called me, he lived several states away, and he said, you know, for my mom's 80th birthday, I'm gonna fly to where she lives. Surprise her and tell her we're gonna hop in her car and we're gonna drive to see you. And stay with you for 10 days.

Exactly. That must have been the look on my face. I'm like, okay, God, I can do anything for 10 days. Right. I can be charitable, I can be generous. I have a big house. We can, I can make this work. I'll just do it. Right. So it, you know, we're, eh, first three days are okay. And then it just, things kind of started feeling weird and like they'd kind of disappear and wouldn't say [00:12:00] they were going anywhere and they'd be gone for hours and hours.

It was just, I don't know, just no communication. And I would start to get that feeling again, of just being like, run down and at the edge of falling apart, but I'm strong. I got this, I can do this. So we were going to have a we hosted in our home like a, a weekly like marriage Bible study for married couples on Monday nights.

So I told my bio dad and his mom about this and I said, look, you don't have to come. I'm not trying to proselytize, but it's something we do in our home. If you'd like to come, you're welcome. If not, no problem. She said, no thanks. He said, yeah, please come get me in my room. So I went and got him in his room.

When it was time we walked down the hall together. And right before we got to the living room, he said I gotta get something. I'll be right back. So I thought, well, I must need his glasses or something. I don't know. Never came back. Never did come back. So [00:13:00] afterwards, I sent my son down to the bedroom.

So what, you know, to find him. And he's like, he's not there. He's not in the backyard, he is not in the front yard. He's gone. He's just not there. Odd, right. We looked, we kind of waited, just wasn't there. So the next morning I just woke up at 5:30 in the morning, and which isn't normal. I usually, it's like 6:30 or seven.

And I immediately had this thought, they're gone. I woke up my husband and I said, honey, they're gone. What are you talking about? They're, they're gone. I know they're gone. No, they're supposed to be here another three or four days. They're gone. I got my robe. Walked down the hall, they were gone.

And I think as an adoptee that ripped the rug right out from under me. You know, there's probably a lot of, a lot of variables there, but you know, in birth family in all of this. But [00:14:00] I guess I didn't know what was gonna happen. So it wasn't necessarily like a big conflict, it was just they were gone. So my husband's said, let's, go to breakfast.

So we went to this restaurant and we sat on the patio for probably three or four hours. And I had, which from the outside probably looked like a nervous breakdown.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Or a psychotic break. I would just sob and weep from my core over this, probably abandonment.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Right. Even though I didn't even like this guy that much, I didn't like his mom that much. Why is it affecting me so deeply? I would just, I would weep from the, I mean, guttural, ugh. It was horrible. And then that, you know, I'd go for a while and then I'd start laughing hysterically. So like I said, crazy lady. But that was my reality that morning. And I think looking back, you know, it's been 15 years better ago now, and, and I realize that my belief is in some of [00:15:00] us, based on our temperament, our DNA, our life experiences and all of that, our biological family, our resilience, you can have that rug ripped from under you and not, not real, just you have no idea its coming. You don't know it's there that you can get hurt deeply, even by people you don't feel like you're even that close to.

So that's my big conflict story. Not that I, I mean, it, it just ended with me setting limits when, when they called that night because word got around quickly to a cousin who called an aunt, who called him on the road. So he called me and I was of course upset and I, I just said, look, I never wanna see your mother again, and I'll let you know when I'm ready to talk to you. And I must have sounded pretty fierce what he heard. It was, I'll never wanna talk to either of you again.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Right. So we have healed things since then, but I'm pretty cautious. Then fast forward [00:16:00] to about six years, five years ago, my little grandson's first birthday party. Now I've let these folks back in my life again.

He and his wife, they wanna come out for my first grandchild's first birthday. Great. Come on out and we just finished the dinner and you know, I'm an excited Nana, I love my little grandbaby and its first birthday and oh, the cake and the good to the presents and all that. So we'd finish the dinner, we're sitting at the table and just waiting to, you know, get the table cleared and we're gonna have the cake and presents and things.

And he looked at me, he said, I just wanted to let you know I went to our lawyer and took you out of our will.

Haley Radke: At the party, he said this to you?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Mm-hmm. Now, as an adoptee, I never had an expectation of being in the will in the first place.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: 25, 30 years ago, he, out of the [00:17:00] blue, told me he put me in his will. Okay, great. Thank you. So now the expectation's there. You don't even think about it again, you've forgotten about it until someone, the person who gave life to you tells you, lemme rip that rug out from under you again. So there we were again, and I was much stronger at by that point and had been in therapy. But I still think there's so much about being adopted that at least for me is at a cellular level.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: I don't know.

Haley Radke: How long did it take you from your setting the limit after that first disappearing act to engaging with him again?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Mm, it might've been over five years.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah. I was just, I was just, I've never had anything like that. Just, I just, I could feel it in my cells. That's all. That's the only [00:18:00] way I know how to, to, to describe it.

Haley Radke: Well in this behavior, I'm telling you, something inflammatory at a public celebratory occasion is like, this person just really wants a scene or something like that is so wild. What a choice.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, it's like just no really low social skills, I think. And you know, I, I don't think there was bad intent by it. It was just, you know, the explanation the next day was you know, your husband supports you and you have your own company and so you don't need anything from us. Well, that's true. However. The underlying part of this is the human part. Yeah. You know?

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: And maybe in a different setting, said in a different way. Like, hey we've had this conversation and here's what we decided to do. We just wanted to let you know. So that was my [00:19:00] experience. And after then, after that. Like he, the look on my face must not have looked great. He saw that, noticed it, blamed his wife for everything, and then took off out of the house.

Like I told you, conflict, they run. Well, they rode with us in our car, so we had to come back and the next day we dropped 'em at their condo and the next day they, they said, hey, we we're, we're not feeling well today, you know? And then they contacted me the following day. I had lunch with them, brought my daughter along who they hadn't seen yet, and I just kept it surface and pleasant. And when he went to the bathroom at the restaurant, his wife looked at me and said, are we okay now? And I said, no. What I've learned from this is you can have too much family.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Which probably wasn't the nicest thing to say, but it's the only thing I could think in that moment.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. That's so real though.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, it's a lot. It's a [00:20:00] lot to carry.

Haley Radke: So a lot of people, we, we even did a whole series on adoptee estrangement, and so a lot of people are choosing to go this route now. And I know with your expertise, like you help people navigate really challenging circumstances and especially with people who are high conflict, really difficult people.

And so do you have a, a line or, or things that you tell people about, like, listen, if you see this, we really gotta. Yes. Safer to break ties, or if these things are happening, I could help you work through that. Like, do you have something like that that you could share?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, we do. I mean, it's, we do work with a lot of people in really tricky situations, whether it's adoptee, I mean, it's. Infrequently adoption related, but it's, you know, high conflict, which is a, a kind of a pattern of an, an individual with a [00:21:00] pattern of doing a lot of blaming and having, you know, really extreme behaviors, unmanaged emotions, and very all or nothing in their thinking. And it's just kind of how they approach life kind of unconsciously, like an operating system so they can wreak havoc on their close relationships and even relationships at work, but especially in intimate relationships and parenting and families, siblings, all of that. So the people that come to us are usually often in times in despair. Like, I'm in a deep dark hole and I don't know what to do. I don't know how to get out.

Everything I do is a misstep. I'm wrong. I'm blamed, I'm scared, I'm frustrated. I'm exhausted by the chaos. So what we help people do is just understand, first of all what high conflict looks like and then they start to get this first like kind of brick in the foundation of, okay, I'm not crazy. And then it's kind of understanding what's happening with this other [00:22:00] person and accepting that this is who they are and I'm not gonna be able to change it.

Therefore I have to change how I approach it. So we do have, you know, communication skills we teach, which is, you know, using what we call EAR statements when they're escalating, complaining, blaming, give them something a little with a little empathy, attention, respect, little EAR. And it, it helps really connect with the reactive part of the brain and helps them kind of helps their brain get regulated more, gives them what they need before you have a conversation or get to what you need to, like, if you have to have a difficult conversation, you're gonna sprinkle a little EAR in it whenever the other person's upset, escalating, blaming, going all or nothing or any of that.

And then we have other little techniques. We have writing techniques and things too, but a big part of this is setting limits and with high conflict people, [00:23:00] you really have to have this balance of, of giving them empathy or respect. Some need respect more than empathy 'cause they'll manipulate you with your empathy.

And then a balance with setting limits, they don't stop themselves and so you kind of have to give the gift of setting limits and what that really means bottom line is I'm going to do what I need to do. Because if you think about it, we're typically doing what the other person wants us to do and we're afraid to assert what we want.

But setting limits, having boundaries is doing or saying what I'm going to do, I'm going to leave this room now if you don't stop talking to me in that way. And if they continue, I'm leaving the room now. So there's those, little, you know, things that happen in conversations, but then we go to the bigger picture of making decisions about that relationship.

And that's one that takes some time. And you know, in these [00:24:00] tricky reunion type situations, you're blending different cultures basically on an intimate, most intimate level. And sometimes gonna work great as you know. And other times it's going to be tricky and sometimes you're, oftentimes there's gonna be a, a pretty negative situation that you find yourself walking into.

So, you know, I like to say, remain cautious for a year at least. Tread lightly. Be observant. Look for the red flags. Don't make any promises. Don't get too close, too quickly. Stay as arms length as possible for the first year or so, and then you can make decisions from there. 'cause I don't know you today, but I will.

I will know you and I'm gonna know that you're okay. Healthy enough to be in a [00:25:00] relationship with or not, or somewhere in between. And that's how far or close I'm gonna have you.

Haley Radke: That's really good advice. So difficult to follow through in. Especially for

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yes ma'am,

Haley Radke: you're meeting your birth mother for the first time. Your fa like, it's the draw, the lure of like finally getting to know someone you dreamed about for and had all these stories about. It's so difficult.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah,

Haley Radke: and I really encourage people to have a, a competent therapist to walk. Them through this time to help press the brakes for us. 'cause we can't, it's, it's really difficult.

I was gonna say, we can't do it.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I mean, we could, but it's hard.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, it's hard. I like, listen, I'm old now. I'm a grandma, right. So I have a lot more experience and wisdom and missteps along.

Haley Radke: You sure look old

Megan Hunter, MBA: in my 20.

Haley Radke: Just for people who can't see you, like. [00:26:00]

Megan Hunter, MBA: Filters help, trying to stay looking young. But, and the good thing is my voice sounds young, which is nice. So the people that can't see me think I'm really young. But when I was in my twenties, when I met everyone, you know, I was just, I, I didn't have any of these skills. I didn't know, I was just happy. Let's, you know, ah, it's gonna be great.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: It's like a Odie in Garfield, just ha ha ha. So it's a, it's a journey.

Haley Radke: Well, and I think you kind of alluded to this, but this deep-seated fear of like a re abandonment, I think is in a lot of us. And so we will say yes to a 10 day visit, even though, or like really, right, we'll say boundary crossings all over the place just to keep the peace.

And, and that that comes at our costs. Like it's, you know, and so I think with, you know, lots of therapy and maturity can come, the ability to set those [00:27:00] limits, like you were saying, but it's hard won.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, it is. And, and you do, I mean, I'm really glad you, know, say out loud, get some competent help to go through this. I really didn't have any, I just. Just was fumbling along. And then over the years, you know, since then, finding lots of issues within my adoptive family too, and having that family cut me outta their will. So kinda, I know, I don't know, too many people have been cut outta the will twice for two different families. But here I am.

Haley Radke: You're just too successful. Like what?

Megan Hunter, MBA: In a way which does, you know, not to be, you know, narcissistic or conceited or anything, but I think there's some, issues of that in one family, not so much in the other and none in the other, but. Yeah, you have to, you just, you need help 'cause you have to, it's, these are really [00:28:00] challenging, difficult situations that can take a toll on your self-esteem. And you can really take some, some big hits. And there are things I just didn't understand, like why am I looking like a psychotic person on the patio at Gooding? You know, back and forth and swinging all over the place.

And, you know, and I, I've been to therapy and, you know, I help a lot of other people, but at, at the same time, I was experiencing this myself and I couldn't get a grip on it. I just couldn't understand it. So I think that for me at least, that seemed like that comes from the deep down adoption stuff, is there are things we are doing ourselves, we just can't understand.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Why am I feeling this way? Why am I doing this? Why? So for me, it finally kind of came together when, you know, I had to make some tough decisions in my life about my adoptive family [00:29:00] and just some really heavily unhealthy things there. And it was okay for about three days after I made my decision.

Tough. I'm strong. I've got a great husband. I have great kids, all this. And day three, I was like, wake up, woke up and I always felt like I was falling apart, like I felt a little crumbly and I called my husband at his office about 10 o'clock. I said, I've never not had a family before. I don't know how to do this.

I don't know if I can do this. He hops in his car, drove home from his office, 30 minutes, sat me down at the table, my calm, cool, collective, super sweet husband, and he looked at me and he said, don't ever again let anyone hold your self-esteem, value, or happiness in their hands. That was it. I was over it. I was fine, and I've been fine ever since.

It's been years. There's something in that that I guess. I don't know [00:30:00] if it's just my temperament that I didn't have that strong self-esteem or know who I was or was adoption part of it. I don't know, but it sure helped with all of it.

Haley Radke: Hmm. Thanks for sharing that. I don't know if you're comfortable talking about this, but I know your a mom and you have a big family, extra, extra step kids now, and you've got, you know, lots of people to love who all are influenced when we're talking about reunion, right? It's,

Megan Hunter, MBA: yeah.

Haley Radke: Trickles down. So in the difficult times, how did you talk about these things with your kids, you know 'cause I'm estranged from my adoptive parents also and it's, rare, but every once in a while, one of my children will be like, ask about the grandparents they barely remember anymore 'cause it's been a number of years. Right. And so having those conversations with them and also trying to make sure they know I'm not gonna go anywhere, you [00:31:00] know, like I'm here.

Megan Hunter, MBA: True.

Haley Radke: And also they know their mom is adopted and I was separated from my parent. Right. So. So it's really complex to have these conversations with our children at whatever age or stage it's sort of happening. Do you remember having anything like that with yours?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Probably not in such a thoughtful way as you've just said it, I think. Honesty is always a great policy. And I think that came from my parents always telling me I was adopted. So that's just kinda carried through my life. I think being authentic can't hurt.

So I think if you've raised your children with that secure attachment, that's the foundation. And then you can be honest and, and you know, depending on their age. But just asking them, you know, when mommy, if something came up and you say, you know, if when mommy goes to the store, does Mom come back? Yep.

Well, I'm always gonna come back for you. I'm always here. You know? So I think it's just [00:32:00] repetitive information like that and action, and it can be words or it can be your actions. Right. It's just, it's just being there. So did I have that conversation? Hmm. Not so much. I would probably whined and complained it too much, but they were older.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: You know, but even things that I probably took missteps or screwed up with my kids, I've been able to kind of repair that, you know, in adult life. And I'm just very vulnerable and transparent with them and they experience changes that I'm going through that are pos, you know. All changes, I guess. But I'm always working toward positive growth and development and they feel that.

Haley Radke: I bet.

Megan Hunter, MBA: And now they're pretty healthy for the most part. And they make decisions about people in their lives. They're very supportive of me. I've been very much, don't be a take sides person. If you wanna have [00:33:00] a relationship with any of the people that I don't have a relationship with, that's your choice.

I will respect that and support whatever you decide. If something becomes unhealthy and I see it, I might bring it up to you, but it's gonna be up to you. It's your choice. And I think through that, that's taught them to make their own choices and they are healthy choices because of that.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: The bad part of it, the negative or the negative side I've seen is that when I kind of did a walk away from my adoptive family. Then one of my children kind of wanted to distance himself from his brother, my other child. And I, you know, I keep saying, don't do that. You can't do that. We gotta keep our family together, we gotta keep ourselves, you know, and his comment was, well mom, you know, look, you walked away from your family. So kinda have to weigh those things.

And [00:34:00] role modeling is really important. And I think for me at least, it was trying to avoid being all or nothing and, and saying, look, I'm putting a pause. I've walked away, but it's a pause. It may change in a couple of years. I don't know yet, but I'm gonna do the right thing. I'm taking right steps, and if I learned I've taken a wrong step, I'll try to make a right one the next time. If this relationship is meant to heal, I'm open to that. So I think it's just figuring out as you call.

Haley Radke: Yes. Okay. Well said. Thank you. Is there anything else that I, I know you've sort of dipped your toe in with the adoptee community or with the NPE community, I know you've gone even presented at one of the conferences.

And is there anything that you see in adoptees that, especially related to your expertise in conflict that we should learn about more or advice for [00:35:00] us? Anything like that?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Well, first of all, I was really surprised at the first conference to see that it was, there's so many, and it was, you know. In the old days it was just adoptees.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Now it's all these other non-parent event, I don't know, what are they? Embryo donors and all this, all that other stuff. And now

Haley Radke: This is the Untangling Our Roots conference that we're talking about. Mm-hmm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah. And then people who, you know, were one of 60 children from a sperm donor and just, it's grown so much and there's, you see the same desires in no matter what circumstances you came from and the people I've talked to that have like just found out, let's say they're my age and they found, find out dad's not my dad, a bio dad. It's really interesting to see how deeply that cuts that they've been lied to. They're 55 years old and they found out I'm not Jewish and I thought I had, you know, Holocaust [00:36:00] survivors in my family and now I find out I'm not even part of that family and that's their thinking.

So. I think, you know, obviously people listening to this are, maybe have gone past that already. I don't know. But I guess my words of caution would be to be cautious because there are people who are not healthy. There are people who may take advantage or they might have a really wonderful outcome.

I've talked to some who thought they'd found their biological parent, and then it turned out it wasn't. Now they've built and established a relationship with that person and then find out, oops, that wasn't him. Now another hurt. So I just think you have to be cautious. You don't have to be afraid or live in fear, but just get with that therapist, get with somebody that's walked this journey. Get with a good friend who has a very objective perspective and take your time. There's no rush. [00:37:00]

Haley Radke: Yes, definitely, I mean. Huh. I should say sometimes people feel a sense of urgency depending on how old they are when they search those kinds of things.

And that also can make us make some foolish choices, so.

Megan Hunter, MBA: That's true.

Haley Radke: Yeah. As much as you can. I totally agree. Take your time and have, have someone walking alongside you if you can.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah. And if I can just say one thing real quick. This has probably been kind of heavy for people. It's just reality. I'm very much about reality and being authentic, and if it helps someone, I hope it does. There's also some really great stuff that's happened in my life and I have these two sisters, half sisters, and we vacationed together this summer. I look in their eyes and I see my eyes, and those are, as you know, it's really cool when you finally find someone that looks like you or they talk like you or they act like you or you find you have these common traits and, [00:38:00] you know, wonderful, wonderful relationships. And I'm, I'm very fortunate that I've, I've been blessed with like some great humans in my life. The only downside with that is there are four siblings in that family, and two are on the out, way out, and two are in. And so when I came into it, it was three sisters and me, and I was considered a triplet with them.

There's twins and then I was, I was so much like them. They called me their triplet. Well, those two twins don't talk anymore.

Haley Radke: Mm.

Megan Hunter, MBA: And that was another loss for me was feeling like I'd lost now the sisterhood because of that.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: But you know, as a grownup, you have to accept those things and.

Haley Radke: Man, it's complicated.

Megan Hunter, MBA: It's complicated.

Haley Radke: Well, I, I'll share with you before we do recommended resources. I'm in Reunion for over 12 years now, and I also have siblings and was at my youngest sister's wedding earlier this [00:39:00] year, you know?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Oh.

Haley Radke: So you get to reclaim some of those special moments that perhaps you missed growing up with them. But it's pretty amazing to build those relationships now as adults.

Megan Hunter, MBA: You got to be at the wedding.

Haley Radke: I did. Yes.

Megan Hunter, MBA: That's amazing.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: That's so amazing. I love that. Oh, that's so good.

Haley Radke: Yep.

Megan Hunter, MBA: So good.

Haley Radke: Well, I am just, I have too many things that we could keep going on, but you have so many resources available for folks. In fact I know you have a number of books out, and so I was like, I don't know what. I should order to like prep for an interview, but I ordered one. 'cause I'm like, I'm gonna give this to my friend soon as we're done.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Oh,

Haley Radke: okay. It, I, I ordered High Conflict Co-parenting Survival Guide because my friend

Megan Hunter, MBA: Nice,

Haley Radke: not funny, but is in that very situation and so I was like, oh perfect, I can give this to her. And I was listening to your show. You have a podcast called It's All Your Fault, High Conflict People, and you have so much great [00:40:00] advice, Megan. And I saw you present at, not at one of the conferences, but I think you did a, a little event for Right to Know, and you were talking about the BIFF method and, and those kinds of.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Oh, yeah.

Haley Radke: I won't, I won't say what those things are. I mean, people can go and read and listen to those, but like, you give so much very practical advice and I love that. It's super helpful just in your day to day, right? Because we're adoptees, but we're humans and we live with people,

Megan Hunter, MBA: right?

Haley Radke: And all those things. So I hope folks go and check out all of those things. Is there anything in particular you wanna direct adoptees to in all of your, like, there's so many things. We'll link, we'll link to all the things, but there's so many things to mention.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, we do have a lot. So the, we've just in the last month or two launched a new platform called conflictinfluencer.com and it's for 18 years, we've been training professionals, like lawyers and judges and psychologists and all that, how to deal with high conflict clients, litigants, [00:41:00] HR, all of that. But you know, we discovered there's just a lot of people dealing with high conflict in their personal lives and they're confused by it and they're really tired.

So we launched this platform to help anyone. So I would say that's probably a pretty good resource where to start, all the books are on the website and there's a class I teach called Conflict Influencer and it's like a six week class. It's really pretty inexpensive. I am notorious under pricer, but I just want people to get the help and, and get the support from the rest of the group and things like that. So that's always running and there's little classes and courses and all kinds, and the podcast is free. You know, that's, that's always on. And my co-founder, Bill Eddie, who's just absolutely genius, brilliant. He's the one that came up with BIFF and EAR and all these things.

We recorded two episodes today and we're recording another, so we're always answering listener questions and all of that.

Haley Radke: It's really helpful like for folks who are like, Ooh, I kind of wanna know more of that. Like, [00:42:00] seriously, it's not like one of those shows where you sort of skim the top and you don't ever get to, they're like, buy this course. So then you can really know, like you share all the things.

Megan Hunter, MBA: I probably have a problem. I don't even know.

Haley Radke: Oh, I'm sure someone, someone out there would tell you to pay wall some of that, but no, I'm really thankful. I have the same thing, right? Adoptees On free for all, for, you know, hopefully forever in the will. And I think it's important, you know, like we have these stories and this wisdom, you have this expertise and I think it can bring peace to so many people, you know?

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah.

Haley Radke: So thank you. Thank you for sharing that and for sharing some of your story with us. What an honor to hear the personal, so we are best to connect with you then online?

Megan Hunter, MBA: So probably conflictinfluencer.com.And my last name is Hunter. So I'm Megan Hunter on Instagram. I think it's like Megan Hunter official or something, and I can give you the links, but I have all [00:43:00] kinds of social media that I never use, so you can find me at conflictinfluencer.com.

Haley Radke: It's because she's out there teaching people. You're at conferences, you're presenting to businesses and traveling the world. Yeah.

Megan Hunter, MBA: Yeah, exactly. Trying to hold it all together and make good decisions and have good relationships all at the same time, but you're doing the same and it's, you know, really, really important work you're doing. So I'm, I'm really grateful for that. It's, it's needed.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Thank you so much.

I don't know if I gave this the biggest sell in the episode, but you would not believe the difficult situations that Megan has helped folks navigate. She is like this amazing mediator [00:44:00] and truly, I have learned so much from their podcast. It's so, so good. Even in just day to day of how you, you know, interact with people online or if you're gonna send that email, you know following their method of how to write things is just really helpful and practical. Am I repeating myself? Anyway, I hope that if you have been struggling in a relationship with someone that's really, really difficult, that you do go and listen to her show and look up some of those resources that they're offering because it's so helpful. Super duper helpful.

And, you know, we kind of talked around this a little bit in the episode, but reunion can just be so fraught. You know, everyone brings all their own baggage to the table, and you have this idea that you're going to like meet your [00:45:00] family, and we're gonna be so much alike and everything's just gonna go smoothly.

And that is just fake. It's not real. That is unrealistic unless everyone participating is actively working on themselves and working on the relationship and being really communicative and open it it just doesn't go the way the you know, reunion shows show you the, the, we used to call it reunion porn. Do we, are we still saying that? Anyway, so I hope that if this is you and you're in the new stages or you're thinking about searching and that you, do slow down and you get some support 'cause it's very difficult stuff. I really appreciate you listening, and I, I'm so thankful to each guest that shares their expertise and lived experience with us.

It's just a [00:46:00] real gift to be able to share these conversations with you. If you wanna keep hearing more Adoptees On, you can partner with us and go to adopteeson.com/partner and sign up to support the show on Patreon. We would love to have you there, and thanks for listening. Let's talk again soon.

308 Alexandra Mann

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/308

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Who among us doesn't love a good movie? And how many times have you been watching a film and a jump scare? Some terrible adoptee trope comes outta nowhere. Today's guest, Alexandra Mann had that happen one too many times.

And what grew out of that all too common adoptee misrepresentation in the media was the Adoptee Film Fest, which is now in its second year, spotlighting adoptee filmmakers telling adoptee stories. Alexandra shares about her personal story as a domestic [00:01:00] transracial adoptee from Hong Kong, and how therapy preserved her relationship with her adoptive parents after a giant secret came to light.

We do have a mention of suicidal ideation in this conversation, so please listen with care. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources. A chance to meet in person in New York City in November, 2025, and as always links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On Alexandra Mann. Hello, Alexandra.

Alexandra Mann: This is crazy Haley.

Haley Radke: She's speechless.

Alexandra Mann: Hi. Hi Haley. I am speechless. I am speechless. I am so [00:02:00] happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me on. I can't, this is my first time talking to you, meeting you. So the fact that you just introduced me, excuse me, everyone for a moment I am freaking out. But. Just because Adoptees On was the first adoptee podcast I ever listened to in a desperate time of need. So this is just really full circle for me and I really can't believe it.

Haley Radke: Oh, thank you. I'm so glad the show could be there for you in a critical time. That's amazing.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah, no, it really was my adoptee therapist. This was before I had adoptee community. I was out in Hong Kong doing a birth search for looking for my birth mother.

And yeah, my therapist was like you should listen to some podcasts and gave me three. She recommended yours being one of them and yeah I binge listened to all the ones where you interviewed [00:03:00] transracial adoptees, just 'cause that's where my pain was at the time, thanks for being that incredible resource.

It honestly was really fundamental for me and understanding that I'm not alone, which seems, obviously very funny now where half of my community are adoptees. But yeah, it was very isolating, as a lot of us know and your podcast brought me just, a little taste of what that community could look like and that I was very much not alone.

Haley Radke: Oh,

Alexandra Mann: This is very special.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Thanks for sharing that with me, and thank you for being willing to share your story because someone else is going to listen to your episode, will be their first episode, and they'll know they're not alone. So that's pretty cool. Let's start there. Do you wanna share some of your story with us?

Alexandra Mann: Yeah, absolutely. I'm a domestic transracial adoptee from Hong Kong, so basically let's break that down 'cause I do think it's rare. At least in my [00:04:00] community here in New York I don't know a single other domestic transracial adoptee from Asia. So essentially, my parents, my mom's Texan, my dad's from England.

They were expats. They lived out in Hong Kong for 35 years and during that time, they adopted my sister and I was adopted at five months old and grew up in Hong Kong. I will say that. Before then. I've since learned because I received a letter from my birth mother or my parents. My adopted parents were given a letter from my birth mother when they adopted me. I didn't find this out until I was 26.

Haley Radke: How did you find the letter?

Alexandra Mann: My dad and I got into a big fight about BLM that was going on at the time. He for some reason felt like it was relevant to tell me that now. So yeah, a lot of us as transracial adoptees know that it could be hard, [00:05:00] to have these kind of conversations with our parents, and I definitely experienced that for five years, and this was the peak of it at the end of those five years. And yeah he told, even though, in my mind those are very separate conversations and I need to caveat this with by saying that period in life almost broke my adoptee family apart, but adopted family.

Sorry. Having come out of it and come through it, having worked through it with them now, we all got adoptee therapists. My sister, me, my parents, and three, four years later now, we are so much stronger because of it. And I don't need it to be, I'm not trying to be like, oh, this is a story where we were able to work it out 'cause I know that's not the case with everyone, but we would not be as close for sure if we hadn't had that period. Yeah, so TLDR, me and my dad, we were able to work it out. Honestly, we were really close before that, so it was heartbreaking. [00:06:00] Absolutely. I felt a lot of betrayal. He knows all this. I think it's very okay to share.

Haley Radke: Can I ask you, looking back on it, when do you wish they had given you that letter?

Alexandra Mann: I wish that it had been, part of the conversation around when they were first starting to tell me that I was adopted to normalize it, to normalize my birth mother in my life. I think a lot of people's default is to think, oh, once I turn 18, even my birth mother in the letter, the first line is, you are now 18 and I am blah, blah, blah.

But no I honestly wish it had. I wish it had been in my life and part of those conversations, why does it need to be a secret at all? It makes you feel like there needs to be shame around this secret letter. When I wish I had known the information in it all along, my parents hadn't read it.

It was in Chinese [00:07:00] before they had given it to me, but it answered a lot of the questions I had always wondered about my adoption and my past. Yeah, what I think if it had been done that way, some of the anger and the feeling of betrayal wouldn't have been there.

Haley Radke: So in recent years, you got this and what did your mother tell you?

Alexandra Mann: My birth mother told me that she was 15 when she had me, I, that was the only piece of information that I actually knew that my parents had told me about her, I had always been told that the reason why you were relinquished was because you're birth mother. Both my sister and I separate birth mothers, but we had the same situation when they were teenagers.

And teenagers shouldn't raise children. And I believe this so much to a point that I remember when I as a teenager. There was someone in [00:08:00] high school, a couple years older than me and my friends who got pregnant, and I she kept the baby. And I just remember thinking, this is morally wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

If she really loved the kid or herself, she would relinquish them. And obviously looking back I'm like, whoa, what the actual hell? But I don't believe that now, obviously, but it was so ingrained in, into me that this was an act of love and that because it happened to me and look at all the amazing things that I was adopted into and the love I had, that this was the right course of actions for women in that situation, which is really funny thinking about looking back and sad, but yeah it, she detailed her situation. Her and my birth father had been in love since they were 11, and because of the laws in Hong Kong, she didn't tell anyone about the pregnancy. She did share [00:09:00] that she had, sorry, trigger warning. Suicidal ideation and that she really loved me. She told me what my name meant. She told me what time I was born, so now I know I'm a Libra rising. That's so sick.

Haley Radke: No, but a lot of people don't have that. It was, and especially transracial adoptees where they get like the birth window. I think I was born in this month long period.

Alexandra Mann: CoStar had me down as sag before this, so that didn't feel right. But yeah, apparently my, the name, she gave me Lee, Yin Ning, she says that it means growing up safe and sound, which is obviously very emotional. But yeah, she says she loves me so much. This is the hardest thing she'd ever done in her life. And she hopes that she'll be able to see me. Please don't forget about her, she'll always be here. And you can tell that a 15-year-old wrote this [00:10:00] on stationary because the stationary, the piece of paper, it's written on has cartoon monkeys and hearts. And at the top it says, come find me if you ever have a problem. I'm sorry, but what? That's the only English on the whole letter from that stationary. So yeah, I was absolutely a mess when I received this letter bawling, so it was quite hard because I was told about the letter, on FaceTime. I live in New York. My parents are living in Hong Kong at the time, and it was during 2020. So at the end of 2020 I learn about this and then I have to quarantine in Hong Kong in a hotel by myself for two weeks before I can leave and see my mom and dad. And so there's it was a lot of anticipation.

I found out in October, late October, and I didn't receive it until I was released from quarantine over Christmas time. So yeah, it was a lot I [00:11:00] got released at midnight from the hotel and drove home with my parents who I hadn't been really speaking to that much, since they had told me. So it was all very crazy.

But yeah, absolute mess bawling and it's so funny because when I was reading this, it was such a mix of emotions where I was in a place where. I was feeling really betrayed and hurt by my mom and dad, but at the same time reading this letter, really yearning for their comfort and their cuddles during it. So it's literal, absolute dissonance during that period with them. It just, yeah, it felt mind rocking. I feel like my friend Lindsay, she always tells people that when you find out new information about yourself as an adoptee, it feels like you're Peter Pan and the, Peter Pan has a shadow self that's separate. When you find new information [00:12:00] out, you have to it takes time, but you have they eventually will sew them together, when you, it really feels outta body and who me? You're talking about me. It's hard to put that together.

Haley Radke: Okay. Are you comfortable talking about how you all got your own therapists? What did that look like? And did you have any sessions where you talked together just for folk? Lots of people are dealing with hard things in relationship with their adoptive parents and often it just goes to estrangement and we don't talk about the, what could you do in between to help bridge some of that?

Alexandra Mann: Oh my gosh. First off, yeah, it, you're right. It is a very emotional topic. I am sorry, I'm just looking at your face right now. And yeah it's really tough and I so empathize and I'm there with folks who have this experience. I'm not sharing this to [00:13:00] be like, this is what you should do.

I really don't. I was in survival mode. I'm looking back and I'm grateful things turned out the way they did, but they very much might have not turned out this way. So when I went to college, that's what I was a social sciences major and so I learned about social politics for the first time.

That which not something we talked about in Hong Kong at all. And I never had questioned my transracial reality. I very much thought I was white, I knew I wasn't. So many of us transracial adoptee think in our head sometimes we're white. And I just really rejected a lot of my Asianness, my Chineseness, and just why I didn't want the white people to find out my secret that I was actually Chinese.

So by the time I get to college, my mind's blasted. I go to one of the most liberal universities in Canada, UBC is a public university on the West coast. So my, i'm [00:14:00] learning so much. I become what I think a lot of people in Hong Kong at least when I would return, called me in their heads I was a social justice warrior to them because, why isn't anyone talking about any of the stuff?

And I detailed this to say that I had been an already, a five year fight almost with my mom and dad about race and that my sister and I being two transracial Chinese adoptees are Chinese, are Asian, are people of color. And what that meant, they were very much initially racist.

First there was not conversations they had ever really had and they struggled to believe that this was our reality and I felt really whitewashed by a lot of my community at the time who, I'd heard growing up , we don't even see you as Chinese. We don't even see you as Asian. You're normal. Because for context, while I [00:15:00] grew up in Hong Kong, we were in the expat community in Hong Kong. Hong Kong was a British colony until ninety six. I was born in 95. So even today there's colonial. Colonial divide between the more affluent white expats, mostly white majority whites and local Hong Kong Chinese people.

It's so separate, or at least it was my reality. My parents lived there for 35 years and didn't have a single friend of color really. So that's what the environment I was having those conversations in. So it was already charged. So by the time I found out about the letter, it was the last straw where I was so mad.

So I was at a point where I just, I was so emotional, so angry. I felt like I was the one who was trying to. They felt maybe I was trying to tear the family apart. I felt I was actually trying to keep the family together by saying I need, we were trying to [00:16:00] have conversations around this.

Obviously my parents felt bleep awful. They knew they had bleep up immediately, right? But also were maybe trying to convey why they had chosen to do what they did, even though they knew they had bleep up. I need you to see me as. Chinese as Asian, I need to see me and, sorry. And that that wasn't happening.

There was just I felt really unheard. I'd send them articles and things. I really would appreciate if they would listen to and read just to understand where I was coming from, more just my life a bit more and they wouldn't do it, we just have very vast different perspectives about what I was trying to do.

And so I was at a point where this is too hard for me. I felt so safe once with you, but I feel so unsafe. I feel so triggered. I had stopped going to family friend functions at that time because all white communities, and I didn't even feel that [00:17:00] safety from my own family, immediate family.

I dunno. It just all felt so hard. So yeah, around the time I got the letter, I honestly need to walk away or I feel a desire to, and this is why I say I don't recommend people doing this. I was just at a point where I just felt like I didn't have any more options and I had wanted them to see a therapist or an talk to an adoptee therapist, which is literally an adult adoptee, right?

Because they were all coming from me. In their eyes, maybe their young child who had been radicalized by UBC, I'm kidding. But I just felt like anything I would say, wasn't really getting through or taken seriously. So I just wanted them to speak to someone else, which wasn't, they didn't wanna do, didn't wanna do it was just awkward.

It was just silence would happen or when any of the stuff was brought up and the fear, I guess that's common in adopted parents, [00:18:00] I guess in on their end was really triggered, right? They were like, we can't lose our child. We don't wanna lose our child. And so they agreed to start seeing an adoptee therapist.

They don't, yeah, so they saw them for maybe a year on and off. My sister also is in a reunion now, so that was also going on, I guess within those couple years. So a helpful resource for all and it changed everything because it went from, I guess them not trying to, but it felt to me it was very dismissive of what I was trying to talk to them about all those years, which I will be honest ended up in screaming matches most of the time 'cause it was such an emotional thing for me to talk about.

And they felt, I guess looking back a lot of shame around their ability as a parent, which is not what I was trying to get at all, right? But that's what we were hearing from each other. [00:19:00] And so them being able to speak to a therapist allowed them to open up their minds. And I had been the educator in my family for five, six years at that point.

And so it also took that weight off my shoulders. But yeah, they definitely saw where I was coming from a bit more and allowed them to learn how to create that safe space for me. And now I feel very safe with them. In past where maybe something, a racist comment might have happened, at a family friend thing or at a family thing.

I, I trust, especially when mom I really feel like she'd pick it up and I wouldn't have to say this person just said this. And then her being like what do you want me to do about it? Or I don't think that's bad, or say something dismissive. So it's looking back it always is funny to reminisce on and wow, we've had such a 180 as a family that I'm really grateful. I think for [00:20:00] context as well. Another layer I will add is that I had I did birth search, but the person who may be my birth mother, replied to the search and asked, please don't reach out to this number again. And so I, after all this felt that rejection from my birth mother.

So I can see that perhaps the adoptee in me is just not to be "grateful" for my adoptive parents person or adoptee. That's absolutely, not what I'm trying to perpetuate here [gratitude]. Okay, that's not in my control. That's probably, that's not gonna happen now. My parents are aging the relationships are very important to me and I'm grateful we've been able to rebuild a hundred percent. They're truly some of my favorite people. They are my favorite people in the world, and I'm so glad that we've been able to come out of this stronger 'cause I know that doesn't happen for everyone.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing the nitty gritty of it all, sincerely. It's it'll be really helpful for a lot of people to hear, and I [00:21:00] think a lot of people don't understand the onus of educating adoptive parents is put on the adopted person, and especially when we're immersed in this pro adoption culture where the adoptee tropes are aplenty.

And I know you have big feelings about that. So let's go there. Can you take me to, or do you remember, so you're unpacking this adoption stuff. You must be looking at media things in a little bit of a different light. What do you remember? Either TV movies, like seeing some adoptee representation and you're like, this is so off base so wrong. What are the ones that come to mind right away?

Alexandra Mann: So I think in the period of the letter when I was home doing my birth search, when I was going through all this with my family, it's a four month period where I was living in Hong Kong after Christmas [00:22:00] that year because I didn't wanna go back to New York in case my birth mother reached out.

So I was right in it. I didn't have adoptee community at the time. I was living at home with my parents and my sister during COVID. I was watching tv I remember I had started this show called The Fosters, and then it was also mid during, This Is Us still airing and both shows, and I was watching that on the same time, both shows had birth mothers return to the adoptee's life. And I think they were both really negatively portrayed, right? I think in the Fosters there are some drugs involved, someone was looking for money Classic. And then and This Is Us, the birth mothers also a drug addict who, Randall was better off without .

And at the time I don't know, I just, I was finding it really triggering to watch, but also recognizing, oh, this is [00:23:00] the trope, this is the common trope that I feel I have been seeing all my life, and just paying attention to it for the first time and then this is one of the classic tropes about adoption that is always portrayed and started picking up on more and more. The centering of white adoptive parents most of the time in stories. Think of, for example, Blindside being the most famous one, and I just, I didn't have creativity time. I wanted mirroring. That's why your podcast is so powerful, because I, it's okay, I'm not seeing it. I don't wanna put words into my mouth, but maybe I had that conversation with my therapist. I'm so triggered by this media, I'm consuming. She was like, hey, stop consuming that. Maybe just go to or turn to adoptee created sources. Here are some podcasts. I might be pulling that outta my ass, but wouldn't that be a lovely story? So yeah, I was noticing all this. I was crying in my journal, writing all of it [00:24:00] down because I was not only feeling misunderstood by the stories I was seeing on screen, I was feeling misunderstood by everyone in my life at that point of time.

Even the lovely people who were trying to understand and et cetera, it just felt so isolating and I was just hyper triggered all the time and crying. Crying, writing my journal. Lowest I've ever felt, honestly, in my whole life. So alone. And I just had a moment where I was like, whoa, maybe survival. But my brain just realized at that point, my North Star has to be championing adoptee centered, adoptee created adoption narratives because this is work. I had a job in New York before this where I was working, so the social impact department at Vice Media Group, RIP. And I was helping to [00:25:00] identify underrepresented narratives to weave into our content.

So I knew there's somewhat of a thing in the industry and I wasn't in touch with my adoptee identity at the time. I had not come into consciousness when I had that job, so I didn't think to champion our stories, which is so funny looking back now. But yeah, that's where it all kicked off.

Haley Radke: And so

Alexandra Mann: Pain. And need

Haley Radke: Pain. So your intense pain bore out this idea for the Adoptee Film Fest, which I attended virtually last year and was just,

Alexandra Mann: thank you.

Haley Radke: Oh, it just fed my soul, i've been podcasting for a long time. I do my very best to highlight adoptees you should know and highlight their work. And we've had plenty of filmmakers on and it's hard for them to get their stuff out there. And if you're, especially if you're [00:26:00] independent, it's really tough to get eyeballs on these amazing stories and very important stories. And so I was thrilled. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so happy that this is in the world, truly. And yeah. So you made a thing and it's now in its second year, was very successful. Tell us about coming up with the idea and tell us the story.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah, absolutely. So Haley, the Film Fest account probably started following you just because you were you and Adoptees On was in my world during that time where I literally

Haley Radke: I gotta pause you here. Okay. Because people. I just want you all to know, I didn't know that you listened to this show ever until you filled up my guest form a few weeks ago, just so you know. Okay. So I did not have Alex on to gas me up. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.

Alexandra Mann: Oh my God. No. I'm doing this [00:27:00] completely outta my own passion. I love that though. I this, the film festival is version three, version two of what I had initially wanted to do when I had that Pink Screens north star moment. I knew I wanted to champion, adoptee storytellers, but it wasn't manifested in the form of the film festival as we know it today. It was just, I just wanted to get adoptees in media and entertainment together to see how can we help champion adoptee, storytellers, adoptee creators, adoptee, filmmakers, writers, who's in the room with us here? Who's in the industry? And. That project quickly failed, but that's probably the account that followed you.

It was the Filmfest Instagram account, used to be called the Adopting Media Collective. Very short-lived. But it's funny, I did meet a couple [00:28:00] people on the selection committee back in those days. We had one meeting and then I was air quotes, rejected from my birth mother and completely abandoned the project because I was abandoned.

So that was a thing that all happened during these four months in Hong Kong. And so I came back to New York. I was very much unemployed, I'd been part of a reorg cut at my company, and so I was unemployed for 10 months, and so that was the goal. I needed to find a full-time job, but I couldn't let go of this being a thing that I wanted to do.

I will say that after the hearing back from my birth mother, I didn't want anything to do with the project or if I work on that, I just wanna not. Nope. Later I was just putting everything away into a box. But the thing that helped me get out of that [00:29:00] was my roommate Lindsay, she's my best friend.

She was my first adult adoptee friend, and we met each other online on Roomie, which is an app like Tinder for roommates, and she dragged me to my first adoptee event. But also known as annual picnic, and I did not wanna go. I was like, Ugh, eye roll. I do not wanna engage right now. But it felt like I was on drugs when I was there in a good way, because I didn't know, I just had such a visceral reaction to being in community for the first time.

It felt like I was high in a good way because I was like, whoa, didn't know I needed this. Euphoric. But to go back to your original question, Haley, two and a half years down the line from this failed Adoptee Media Collective project, I go to my friend's film festival. They started the first [00:30:00] trans and gender queer film festival and they were in their third year at the time.

So I went and bleep this means so much to this community. You could feel it in the room as an ally of this community. I felt moved and inspired by this event. It really was one of those really special events, super well done where it's just, oh wow. You walk away from it, I couldn't shut up about it and whoa, it would be so cool to do this for adoptees. So that's the TLDR. Sorry, very long-winded way. I'd say I was inspired by my friends film festival, but I didn't know anything about film. And the industry. So I actually took two years to, educate myself, work on some film sets during some periods of unemployment and yeah, started it a couple years after that through the long process.

There were two years where I was telling people I was gonna do it and then [00:31:00] wasn't. Didn't I wasn't doing it, but here we are. Yay. We did it. Thank God.

Haley Radke: I think people don't realize how much work it is to organize something this large. It gets massive. It takes so many people. I used to work for a huge conference company. We did one conference a year and it was an enormous amount of work. And and I know it's not . It's volunteer, right? So thank you for taking up that weight and bringing it to life. It's just incredible. I'm so excited because I get to come in person this year and yay. So stoked.

Alexandra Mann: I'm so excited,

Haley Radke: so stoked. So we'll get to meet.

Alexandra Mann: Thank you for making the effort.

Haley Radke: I promise we will get to meet for sure.

Alexandra Mann: Wonderful.

Haley Radke: I know you've seen so many films now, so this year you have all the features. Last year you started with shorts, and so how many can you make a estimate if you don't know [00:32:00] exactly how many shorts, adoptee, shorts have you seen and features have you seen altogether from all the submissions for a couple years?

Alexandra Mann: Yeah, so last year we had 33 short submissions. This year we had 18, it's 51.

Haley Radke: We're good at math. Okay. 51 shorts. And how many features?

Alexandra Mann: Features? We got eight submissions this year and it was the first time we did it, so I've only seen those eight. Yeah.

Haley Radke: And have you personally watched?

Alexandra Mann: Yes, I've seen everyone and then everyone on our committee whose committees who are assigned to either shorts or features. They've also watched every single film.

Haley Radke: That's a lot of screen time. Yes.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. So in viewing all of these things, what are you hoping that people will create next? What's, what are the gaps? What's missing? What do you want to see?

Alexandra Mann: Oh my God. Love that. [00:33:00] Love that so much. I think so in terms of gaps. Something that I get really excited about is when someone submits or tells me that they're making a thriller or a comedy, we try in terms of our programming, one of our goals is to write, show people and our community that we're not a monolith. Right? And just further that. I think that it would be really cool for our community to start telling our stories in different genres just because we're not a monolith and so are, I guess the formats of our stories. Don't get me wrong, I love a good doc. I love a good drama, but I'm hoping that with the existence of the song festival and now filmmakers having hopefully this forum to communicate to each other, there's, exploration allowed in how we're telling our stories because they're so multifaceted. There are so many different ways to tell them. So that really excites [00:34:00] me. I also get excited when people are unafraid to bear or display angry adoptees. I think even in our submissions, in our films, we're not seeing a lot of that, which is cool, but. I'm just thinking back to when I was, for example, in my angry, my angriest air quotes adoptee space where even in adoptee spaces, I felt misunderstood and I just haven't really seen anything that adequately conveys how I was. I truly always encouraged and love to see adoptees being angry because it feels even within our community there's still some shame, a lot of shame around that. But I want us to be free. I just want us to be free.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Alexandra Mann: To be,

Haley Radke: I think, I feel like what I've seen in a lot of the documentaries is it's real, but it's not quite all the way there. Even when speaking with some of my friends who've made docs [00:35:00] that have, made the rounds already and it's they still wanted it to be somewhat palatable to the general public.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah.

Haley Radke: So yes, you're complicating the narrative a little bit for people, but they felt like they couldn't go all the way there yet. And that's so sad, to even sugarcoat your own story just so someone else will listen to it. We shouldn't have to do that.

Alexandra Mann: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I think we're self-censoring like that all the time. All the time. And the last film festival, the first one, when we were creating this project, first and foremost, the primary target audience for it was adoptees 'cause I was thinking of people like me who maybe hadn't seen that mirroring or felt that mirroring on screen, and not that I don't think we're ever gonna stray from that being for adoptees, being our primary target audience. I don't know. I hope that in [00:36:00] building, continuing to build this community of people who are hungry to see this mirroring, to see these stories that we're able to help create this safe space where filmmakers don't feel the need to self-censor. It's tough though, right? Because obviously if you put so much time and effort into a project and obviously want it to go beyond the Adoptee Film Festival. Yeah. There's still so much. I can understand that self-censoring wholeheartedly. And I hope long term, the film festival hopes to be a vehicle to be able to engage with the industry about these conversations that need to be had and help create some kind of path or understanding around, telling these stories through the adoptee lens in a authentic way where there allows more room to not [00:37:00] self-censor. And I think you're seeing that in different identity facets in Hollywood. It's a very weird time right now, but we can all see hopefully, right? How much more freedom Asians in Hollywood have been able to have in telling their stories. It's a long journey.

We're tiny in comparison to the entire Asian community in Hollywood, for example. And people still don't understand why adoptee advocacy is a thing, right? We still have to justify that in itself. So it's gonna be a long battle, but ultimately hope that we can do work in the future that allows for more freedom in us telling our stories in ways where we don't have to censor.

Haley Radke: Do you wanna make a film, Alexandra?

Alexandra Mann: Oh my God, Haley. I took a film class where we [00:38:00] had to write, direct and produce our own short film. And this was a year or two before I started the film festival. And I wrote. A script about my birth mother and kind of that period of me searching and had some flashbacks to when she was 15 relinquishing me, super short film.

I only was able to shoot the first opening scene because it was just too fresh for me then. I was still very much mid healing. Not that I'm not always, but it was so raw at the time, and there was definitely a sense in me that just wanted to run away from that project just like I did with the first adoptee media project I did.

And I also think that filmmaking takes a lot of patience. And can be, an up to five plus year project. [00:39:00] And I'm very impatient. Patience is not my middle name, so my background's in events. So the film festival felt very natural way for me to be able to still contribute to this goal and this desire of mine and this cause without stifling myself in the long run on that because this is a safe way for me to do it. This feels a productive way for me to contribute. Yes, maybe there's a bit of a barrier, but because I've had that firsthand experience of how tough it was for me to even think of following through on straight, finishing that short film I just have also the utmost respect for anyone who is able to do, especially people like Kristal who have full on feature length films. That's insane to me when I can even finish a five minute film. So I think this is great because I think one of my skills has always been championing other people I really believe in and giving pep [00:40:00] talk, just really putting people in the spotlight. Yes and no. It's not where I'm putting my time and effort into right now. At least. Never say never, but I also now think we're surrounded by so many amazing filmmakers who are so wonderful and talented that they're where my energy is going right now.

Haley Radke: Okay. So if they're listening and they wanna tell Alex's story, there's something there that they can come to you with. Okay, good. Okay, let's talk our recommend resources. And you mentioned Kristal. So our friend Kristal Parke has the documentary Because She's Adopted and you selected it as one of the features for the Adoptee Film Fest. But I really wanna encourage people come in person if you can. So you are having, first time ever, it's gonna be screening in New York and LA. This time it's November 2025.

Alexandra Mann: The feature film, sorry, only [00:41:00] in New York.

Haley Radke: Features in New York, but the shorts are gonna be New York and LA Yes. Okay. So I'm gonna come to New York and I'm gonna see the shorts. I think I'm gonna miss Kristal by a couple days, unfortunately. I know. Shocker.

Alexandra Mann: Really no way.

Haley Radke: I, you know what I, this is not a secret. I still have children at home.

Alexandra Mann: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Who need my attention way more than you'd think. And so I'm just thrilled I can even come midweek. So I feel like I'm already doing what I can.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. A hundred percent. And so happy. You're coming. Thank you.

Haley Radke: It takes me a whole day to get from Edmonton to New York, and people also know I don't like to change planes, and I'm gonna have to do that too, so it's all a big deal. Anyway, it's not about me.

Alexandra Mann: Thank you for making the effort, Haley.

Haley Radke: I'm so thrilled to be coming and so I hope to meet lots of you. I hope you're all gonna [00:42:00] come. You're gonna support Alexandra's Film Fest, and for those of you who you can't make it to New York, can't make it to LA there will be streaming online again. Yes. So folks can partake. And I know you wanna talk about that too 'cause what do you wanna recommend to us today?

Alexandra Mann: I would love to recommend, and I don't mean this to be a promotional plug or anything. Haley asked before this, recommend a singular resource that you think it'd be really helpful to people, and I just genuinely believe in that, the value and the power of it, because I know how much it helped me.

But the 2024 Adoptee Film Fest, short selections are still available to watch and screen online until November 20th of this year, 2025. And when I first, and I say this to say, when I first watched all of the films in the order, we knew [00:43:00] we were gonna screen them in last year. I just cried like a baby because it was everything I wish I had. In my time of going through all the stuff, all the feelings of isolation and being misunderstood with my own adoptee experience and coming into consciousness. So I just also really stand by it as a powerful and informative and helpful resource to adoptees because , you get to see yourself in these films in a lot of different ways, even if they don't pertain exactly to what you're experiencing. It's really, the filmmakers just are all very incredible and are able to really convey and get so much across. On our experience.

Haley Radke: I love the selections from last year. It's very inexpensive. I think it was, it's $10 I think to stream American and I told you this [00:44:00] off air, but Sullivan Summer and I, we talked through it all on Patreon last year and we went through each film and we critiqued, talk about what we loved

Alexandra Mann: because I didn't know either of you.

Haley Radke: So people might not know this about us Sullivan and I we're besties. They probably know that but we love movies, especially horror movies. And so we do these far away, quote unquote movie dates where we'll both go and see a horror movie on the same day and talk about it. We watched the film fest and we yeah talked about it. I love that there's different stories represented. There's a fiction doc cartoon, there's animated, and you're so thoughtful about inclusivity and making sure everything's captioned. You had things in other languages. It was just so well done. I am, I'm so thrilled for year two. Congratulations on your success, and we hope we are gonna sell out every single screening for you.

[00:45:00] And yeah, we're championing you over here so we can people find. Both the 2024 shorts, if they still wanna catch up, if they haven't seen those. And then where are people gonna be able to hear about how to get tickets, how to come all the info for Adoptee Film Fest for 2025?

Alexandra Mann: People can find the link to stream our 2024 shorts reel, either on our website, which is adopteefilmfest.com or on our Instagram @adopteefilmfest in our link in bio there.

And in terms of tickets. We're still finalizing some things with our venues who help us with our tickets, but we're gonna start rolling them out the goal is anyway, at the beginning of October, that first week of October. So yeah, very exciting. We're gonna be in LA for our short screenings for the first time this [00:46:00] year, and that's really exciting. We also. As you have shared, we'll be doing feature films for the first time in New York City, so it's very exciting year. We're quadrupling our programming lots more to see.

Haley Radke: Amazing. And I'm gonna put my plug in for Kristal Parke's feature screening, Because She's Adopted. It's amazing. I loved it.

It's very good. And she screened it here in my city and so I got to see it in person with her and yeah. Yeah, it was wonderful. So way to go Kristal. Congrats and congrats to you. Well done. Well done my new friend.

Alexandra Mann: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Haley Radke: And where can folks connect with you online?

Alexandra Mann: My Instagram is private, but if you wanna connect and be friends my LinkedIn is linkedin.com/in/mann1. And yeah, right now at least I'm the one running the film festival account on Instagram poorly. I will say it's not my expertise, [00:47:00] so sorry, but I'm there. I'm there too.

Haley Radke: Okay, great. Come on to Instagram people. Wonderful. What a delight to get to know you today. Thank you so much for sharing with us. It's just been a real pleasure.

Alexandra Mann: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Okay, friend. Here's your chance. If you wanted to hang out in New York City, please come hang out with me. I am gonna attend the Adoptee Film Fest. My plan is to be there on Thursday, November 6th, 2025, and our good friend Sullivan Summer here at Adoptees On most folks will know her from her multiple appearances on our Adoptees On Patreon. She's also been on the main feed show. You can scroll back and listen to her episode. We'll link it in the show notes. Sullivan is my, one of my [00:48:00] best friends and she is going to be having a reading and chapbook launch party on November 8th, 2025, which I'm so excited to be attending and cheering her on with that.

And we just have such an exciting week planned so you have time. We wanted to make sure you had this episode early so you can make your travel plans and come hang out with us. We would love to get to meet you in person and support Alexandra and support Sullivan in their adoptee endeavors. So please come to New York. We would love to have you if you're not able to make sure you stream the film fest. Or go in person on another night in LA or in New York, because the more we support events like this, the more they are able to be successful and grow and get adoptee voices [00:49:00] out into the broader culture. So please support their initiatives.

Thank you so much for listening to adoptee voices and prioritizing them. And I really appreciate you taking the time to spend with us in your earbuds. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again very soon.

307 [Healing Series] The Nothing Place with Pam Cordano, MFT

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/307

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to adoptees on. The podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I am so glad to be back with you after our summer break. Today's episode is a special episode in our healing series that, truthfully, I've been scared to do and I've intentionally been waiting to do because of this fear.

This concept has been on my show topic list for several years, ever since I heard the words The Nothing Place for the first time. I believe that naming and describing this idea to you could be so deeply helpful for adoptees that [00:01:00] we just have to go there today. This could potentially break open a block we've had in describing the true complexities and impact adoption separation has had on us.

Pam Cordano, one of our favorite adoptee therapists, is here to tell us about The Nothing Place, the glaring gaps in attachment theory that don't address adoptees very real separation trauma, and how examining this part of us can unlock a new sense of grounding and belonging that we haven't been able to access before. Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. Links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome [00:02:00] back to Adoptees On Pam Cordano. Hi Pam.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Hi Haley. Hi everybody.

Haley Radke: Okay behind the curtain. It is my birthday today. We are recording. This is gonna be the first episode back from summer break. I'm feeling a little rusty. You've been on the show so many times and the last time you were on you, this is back on episode 285 okay. It was transformational. Many people have listened to this episode multiple times. It's one of our top listened episodes. It's called The Seven Insights into Adoptee Attachment, and we talked about this thing called The Nothing Place. And I told you, I said, Pam, I've had this written on my whiteboard for a long time, like we should do a show about it. But it's so bleak and depressing. How would anybody wanna listen to this? And yet, here we are, [00:03:00] me feeling rusty and it's my birthday. So many feelings and we're gonna talk about The Nothing Place today.

Pam Cordano, MFT: We're crazy.

Haley Radke: Yeah. You know what? I love it. It's good. It's good. It's good for us to talk about hard things. We're gonna have trouble putting language to this, but I think it's been really transformational for a lot of adoptees to hear about this, to wrap their minds around this idea and give language to it. So that's what we're gonna help you do today. So let's start here. Pam, what is The Nothing Place?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Oh gosh. The nothing place is what happens when attachment is severed. Before a baby can differentiate self from other. Remember, babies are in symbiosis for the first six months of their lives. They don't know that they're a separate self, so the nothing place is what happens when attachment is severed before a baby can [00:04:00] differentiate self from other, it feels like non-existence.

For adoptees, it's often described as floating blankness and sometimes sheer terror.

Haley Radke: A nice slight topic.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. On your birthday?

Haley Radke: Sheer terror.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Sheer terror.

Haley Radke: Oh, do you wanna talk about my birthday? About August 22nd. What's special about today besides the fact that I came into this world?

Pam Cordano, MFT: That's the most special thing. You're 42 today. Is that okay to say out loud?

Haley Radke: It's okay. Yes.

Pam Cordano, MFT: And you're crushing it. And we all love you and we're so grateful for you. And so it's your birthday. That's the big thing. You could ask me to talk about any topic on your birthday, and I would likely say yes 'cause you're so special to me. The other thing that's interesting about today is it's a new moon and it's called a black moon because a black moon is the second new moon of a given month. And so today's a black moon. And I was just thinking about how the black moon, the new [00:05:00] moon represents darkness and hiddenness and beginnings that come out of the void.

And there was a point where you are a beginning that came out of the void and now you're here. And for those of us who are lucky enough or tenacious enough or have enough support, that we keep trying so hard to heal and to feel comfortable in our skin and in our lives, there's a way we can keep especially together coming out of this void of the nothing place.

Haley Radke: Do you wanna tell us about the origins of this named thing?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Yeah. I think I was there when it started. I was in a joint, very deep psychotherapy session. By joint there was me and then there was a non adopted attachment therapist, and the two of us were working with an adoptee.

And the adoptee went into this [00:06:00] really, I don't even know how to describe it. This is where words fail, but like a horrific looking place where I could see, and his eyes and in his whole being like, like a dorsal vagal, like a collapsed state where. He was just not with us, but it didn't look quite like dissociation.

It looked like something else. And so the attachment therapist said something like, hey, we're right here. Haven't you done this enough? Can't you come out? We're right here. Can you come out and find us here? And he just, the client just looked he looked like he was actually somewhere not nowhere, he was somewhere but somewhere awful.

And then as I kept looking at him, I said, no, we can't ask him to come to where we are. We have to go where he is. And the client said really calmly, this is a place where there is nothing. Nothing at all. And in that moment, I recognize, I feel like I started [00:07:00] crying. It was really a big moment, but I recognized it.

I could see him and he was, he described it where there's nothing at all. My whole body remembered somehow that place more consciously than I ever had before. And then we started calling it the nothing place. And what was super interesting is that once that happened and we, I went to him, I felt it, I think I started crying in that moment.

The other therapist, the attachment therapist suddenly realized that attachment theory does not account for what was happening. That attachment theory explains bonds that are insecure or disrupted, but they're still present in a continuous way for a human. But attachment theory does not explain what happens when attachment is completely severed before a baby has a sense of self, and other.

And that gap, the nothing place gap is where we adoptees, live in some deep part of ourselves and that we've [00:08:00] built a life on top of.

Haley Radke: So can we go to, like most people call it the fourth trimester, right? Baby is born and what's supposed to happen is. You as a baby, you learn from your mother. The mother is your nervous system. The mother is your source for life, food, all the things, emotional regulation, all of those things come from the mother. And you said that happens up to six months?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Yeah. I'll lay it out. So from zero to six months, the infant lives in symbiosis with a mother or the primary caregiver.

The infant has no clear sense of self or other, and the only way they regulate is inside of a shared system. So funny that I'm crying. This is so sad, but I'm usually not the crier, but

Haley Radke: [00:09:00] Oh, I a hundred percent am.

Pam Cordano, MFT: This is you were the one dreading this conversation and I'm the one who it is like it's hitting me. It's crazy. Anyway, so regulation comes, the baby's actual nervous system regulation comes from inside of a shared nervous system, not from their own nervous system. And then from six months to 18 months, there's this gradual differentiation where the baby starts realizing I'm separate, but I'm also connected.

This is built through thousands of micro moments where the mother leaves, the mother, comes back. The frustration inside the baby's system is soothed. The baby's hunger is met, and so these thousands of micro moments build from six months to 18 months. This gradual differentiation of I'm a separate self in relation to my caregiver mother.

Haley Radke: Is this what you've called call response before.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. And call and response starts from the moment a baby's born, but for the first six months, [00:10:00] even with call and response, the baby does not know that it's a separate self. But then starting around six months, they start to learn that gradually for the next up until they're 18 months old.

And then from 18 months to 36 months, the emergence of stable object constancy develops where my mom's not here. But I still know she exists. And this anchors a sense of the baby's self as continuous and not an annihilated.

Haley Radke: Wait, remember playing peekaboo?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And like it's only funny and nice to do when the baby knows you're gonna come back.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: There's a point where we don't have object permanence and so peekaboo was just like, oh my God, where did she go?

Pam Cordano, MFT: It's like a torture chamber,

Haley Radke: right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I didn't like playing that with children.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Like nothing places like a peekaboo that never had a second partner to come [00:11:00] back and show back up again. I'm serious.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I know. It's so bleak. You have to laugh or we will cry.

Pam Cordano, MFT: I know. Traditional classical attachment theory presumes some form of continuous caregiving. It does not build into it attachment rupture that adoptees go through, and this therapist was just shocked realizing that everything he had come to understand about attachment was missing a really core piece for some people in the population.

Haley Radke: Devil's advocate. It's okay, most of us were placed pretty soon to where we were born. If you were adopted as an infant, and so there was another adult doing those things. So what's the difference?

Pam Cordano, MFT: It's not about interchangeable adults for anybody. It's about [00:12:00] the one the baby is bonded to, and we get bonded in utero for nine months. And so whether a baby is relinquished at birth or a week later, or six months later or two years later, the mother is for the baby, is not an interchangeable figure. I think we adoptees know this, those of us who are outta the fog, we know this. I don't knowthat t he wider culture doesn't know this. And that's part of the illusion.

Haley Radke: That we're interchange, that the parents are interchangeable.

Pam Cordano, MFT: That parents are interchangeable.

Haley Radke: Yeah. With no consequence. So the attachment therapist is like, what the heck? I had no clue this was missing from attachment theory.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. He saw it like once, once he realized that he, that what was happening was outside of his framework, and it became really evident in the room and with the clients where the client went, and then how I responded with this recognition. Like it was very overwhelming [00:13:00] for this attachment therapist.

Haley Radke: Did they get emotional too?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Oh yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh.

Pam Cordano, MFT: They had to take a break. They realized they had that a huge thing had been missing around a whole segment of the population, meaning us, that it's not the same. And that therapists and people try to prematurely pull, let's say the adoptee or the relinquished person out of where the ground is that they're trying to, to heal from if they can get there and again asking the adoptee, I'll say to, to adapt rather than people knowing how to go and be where somebody is in the nothing place with them.

Haley Radke: I'm trying to picture studying this, because babies are nonverbal. There's no, there's nothing that's been. There's nobody, no words put to this before. It's not even an attachment [00:14:00] theory. And then so how do you even come to describe something like, it's just, yeah, this is what's really hard to put words to.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. The cool thing is that how this client could get here was, in my opinion, like extremely rare. He was able, even able to do this to go in there and then that there was this perfect configuration of an adoptee therapist and a non adoptee attachment specialist all in this at the same time.

It was this perfect moment where I feel like the value, one of the values is that moment started something that is, I think, and has been adding value to adoptees with trying to understand what makes this all so hard in healing and getting comfortable and grounded because it is preverbal and there's no cultural mirror.

So without having models, it's just, we're just, it is just this kind of chaos of confusion and trauma. But this is starting to put [00:15:00] order in like order and structure to what's underneath in this deepest place.

Haley Radke: Do you consider the nothing place the there's the act of obliteration, of connection between baby and mom, and then there's also the time period gap of when you should have this connection and be able to realize, come to a realization that you are an independent creature aside from a, the person you came from, is it all of that? Is it the one thing like, I'm trying to wrap my head around, what do you think about that?

Pam Cordano, MFT: I think it's a combination of the baby being in that symbiotic for most of us who are adopted under, at, under six months or at least had some kind of trauma or inconsistency, foster homes, whatever in the first six [00:16:00] months that, that before the baby, when the baby is still in symbiosis with a specific person who's their birth mother, even, from the moment they're born, it's the birth mother. That's who they've been with as a co-regulator, as one system the baby knows when that gets severed it's the breaking of that relationship during the time of symbiosis. That, that it, that's what we're talking about.

Haley Radke: Think about a NICU baby who

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yep.

Haley Radke: Can't come out for six weeks. And then can, would they have some version of this?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yes. And that's when Nancy Verrier, in The Primal Wound included NICU babies. And like my adoptive mother was a preemie in, I think two months in the NICU back in the thirties, 1930s. And she had a lot of similar kinds of issues in her nervous system as I did. Who knows, maybe that's even something that I don't know, made adoption [00:17:00] amenable somehow or appealing to her somehow. I don't know, but that's a weird thing to say. But yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. And this is, sorry, another slight rabbit trail. Thinking of children born by surrogate. So it's, that is something I'm so curious about when they start studying that because you can go to your genetic parents, but your tie is severed from the person who carried you to gestationally.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Very confusing.

Pam Cordano, MFT: I think a lot of adoptees think about that. The surrogacy. The other thing I wanna say about the NICU babies, and maybe this goes with surrogacy, depending on the situation and the organization of the structure of the families, but. With a NICU situation, if the parents are intact the lineage is intact. Even if the baby can't be held, particularly in the past, it's better now. There, there's more holding and more awareness of bonding and what the baby's actually need, [00:18:00] but there's still like a psychological, I could even say spiritual holding of that baby in an intact lineage. If that baby's being kept while they're in the NICU, it's a different kind. There's a holding kind of. I can only imagine that the baby would have similar kinds of biological trauma and this nothing place kind of experience, but there is some kind of a holding that is still intact. In that situation.

Haley Radke: Even if mom dies in labor and dad is waiting and ready to take care of baby.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Right, because if mom dies in labor and dad's ready, then dad's gonna be grieving and in the same soup in a way as the baby around that loss. And there's gonna be a kind of mirror or orientation point in that shared grief versus just cut ties cut and baby's now in a totally foreign environment.

Haley Radke: I just don't understand why Muggles, this is the term that Pam uses for non [00:19:00] adopted people for kept people. Why Muggles don't get that parents are not interchangeable.

Pam Cordano, MFT: It's like issues of privilege. It's like anything that is so normal to a person that it's not questioned. It's usually pain. Pain becomes the questioner, and then the people who are invisible or harmed by that invisibility start speaking up. And in a way that's what we're doing in this conversation is making space for something that is invisible.

Haley Radke: Right.

Pam Cordano, MFT: On a cultural level, which is super painful.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Pam Cordano, MFT: So if in that state of symbiosis, relinquishment happens, the baby has no way to hold inside their system. I exist. You exist because that hasn't been formed yet before the rupture. And so what then happens is the nervous system encodes [00:20:00] this experience of void and terror because that rupture creates that in the baby's body.

And that's the place of the nothing place, no self, no other, no continuity, no me, annihilation that, all that stuff. And then later on as we get older with our adoptive families, let's say our development overlays the ability to function. We go to school, we do what we do, we learn how to be a person that's functioning, but there's still this split consciousness inside of us where there's this more adult kind of competence or child kind of competence. Adult and there's still the body memory of non-existence deep inside of us. So we live with that split.

Haley Radke: I'm trying to take it in. I think just literally trying to understand that a baby doesn't know it [00:21:00] exists, right? That's a hard thing to get, but literally they can't know that yet. Because the, because of the developmental state, lack of development, yet it's very hard to understand that a baby wouldn't know they exist. And I know you said developmentally.

Pam Cordano, MFT: And that, that, that feels like death. That's a fear of annihilation. If I, am I dying? I'm dying. And not even am I dying, like it's like a, not the thought I'm dying, but the experience for the organism of I'm dying 'cause I just got chopped apart.

Haley Radke: And there's not the ability yet to say, oh, they went somewhere, they're coming back. It's just gone.

Pam Cordano, MFT: That doesn't even start being a biological possibility until they're at least six months old, the [00:22:00] beginning of being able to do that. So we just have to develop on top of this experience of being chopped apart and it feeling like death, and then we build coping on top of that to survive.

And then we become the people we become on top of all of that, and then we don't know why we're so anxious, or we have so much trouble in relationships, or we're terrified of being alone in the dark or throwing up or we get sick from all this stress in our bodies. We don't know what is going on that we are so screwed up and we think that it's like our, it's our fault or something's wrong with us and feel shame about it.

But this talking about the nothing place and describing the rupture during the time of symbiosis and what that does, which I could have known intellectually, but to see it on this client's face and then, and to experience it in my own system, all at once it landed and now we can talk about it. I, those of us who it's landing for, we can talk about it.

Haley Radke: Isn't this the [00:23:00] same as so many friends I've had, or even interviews we've mentioned like I feel like I fell outta the sky. Like feeling like you come from nowhere.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Like that terrible idea, that storks bring the babies to the new parents. It's no, like adoptees literally, a lot of us literally feel like that, like some random thing just dropped us outta the sky with the receipt.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. It's like we're, it's like we're a tree that we have to grow. We have to grow into a big tree with no roots. Like somehow there's no root system and then we don't know why we keep getting blown over or we don't like when kids are hanging on us and climbing us 'cause we're about to fall over anyway.

But yeah, it's that disoriented. There's no continuity in the nervous system literally. So the infant nervous system depends on co-regulation 'cause they're in symbiosis. Without it neural circuits for safety and orientation do not get laid down. The nothing place feels like non-existence because in brain [00:24:00] terms, there was never a scaffold for I exist in relationship to you.

And when I say there never was, even if the baby was kept by the birth mother for two weeks, they were still in symbiosis when the relinquishment happened. So they didn't, we have to keep thinking of the baby as being in symbiosis when they're under six months. And then, and what that, it doesn't matter in some way, if they got. A day or a, or two a month it's still happening in that time.

And polyvagal theory is really interesting in a super nutshell our dorsal vagal system, that's our collapse place. That's where the nothing place lives. It's in this dorsal collapse place. It's not even equipped to do fight or flight 'cause babies can't do fight or flight. They're, they can't even move and they don't even know that they're separate. They're stuck having to just go into collapse. This is where the nothing place lives. It's in the dorsal, vagal collapse place in our nervous systems. And then a stronger part that we can develop later is fight or flight so we can [00:25:00] actually make decisions about what, when do I fight, when do I do flight, but the happy place for all of us is in the ventral vagal system that's higher up and that's where we feel safe enough. We feel socially connected. We have our curiosity and creativity online. That's the good life times is in ventral vagal.

So with this rupture in our dorsal that lands in our dorsal vagal system as freeze and collapse, it's harder for us to get to a steady state of ventral vagal. It takes a lot of work and probably a lot of good fortune around, kind and tuned in people being with us later after we've come through all of this. Does that make sense?

Haley Radke: Just to be able to function.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. And to feel and to be comfortable functioning. Not shut down and then not in not dominated by fight or flight. More times rather than less times. That doesn't make sense. But to be less involved with fight or flight and shut down. And to have more of us available for ventral vagal, where [00:26:00] we actually feel good.

Haley Radke: So this is an upsetting thing that many people have said. They either report my case was, oh, she's colic, right? I cried nonstop all the time for no apparent reason, quote unquote. And then others report, oh, I was such a good baby because I never cried. So there's like always crying, never crying.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: That's either one. This collapse.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah, the never crying is really collapse and the always crying. There's still some energy to me. I think of the always crying is still trying to stay alive and not go because collapse the, like the freeze state. The freeze state if we stay there too long it's like a preparation for death kind of place.

Like freeze is a place that wants to figure out what do I do I fight or do I flee from danger? Freeze is danger. So if we can't [00:27:00] find a way to, to fight or flight, we're just sinking into this free state where it's like preparation for death. We can't, the parts of us to say frozen too long are parts of us that kind of just seem to go dead or get buried or turned off. They just stop being online. The crying part, I feel good about thinking of you crying like that in, in the sense that you're fighting for something. Like what can a baby do if they're trying to engage, trying to be known stay in the ring. Crying is maybe better than, crying is better than no crying.

It's not great. It's not good, but it's, it at least it's, there's an action involved with it. And who knows, maybe, I don't know. You're such an action person. You put things out in the world, you, you do that kind of thing. And I don't know, I don't know what I'm saying by saying that, but I'd rather see a baby crying than a baby who gave up crying.

Haley Radke: I just feel so like this. This is so difficult because I know all my adoptee friends, like this is what we [00:28:00] experienced. This is no one, nobody who would subject a human to this.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Torture. This is torture. Okay. Should we go to iFS?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Sure. So in, in IFS theory, the exiles most exiles hold feelings that are not fully acceptable or acceptable at all in the family. So it can be things like, shame or rage or pain, grief. Sometimes exiles hold positive feelings too. Let's say there's a mother that's jealous of the child might wanna shut down their joy or their how they can shine in the world so the mother doesn't get jealous. So that's, there's examples of exiles can hold good things too, like quote good things too that are just not allowed in the family to maximize love. The nothing place is a deeper exile than those kinds of exiles. The nothing place is an exile that holds an experience of non-existence itself. [00:29:00] So it's not just a part with feelings, it's the body memory of no self. No other 'cause it broke apart. And then what happens is protectors our protective systems, I'll say in adoptees work over time to cover up this abyss. And they do thing, over functioning, people pleasing, addiction, anger problems, reactive attachment disorder issues. Like whatever it takes to try to stay alive, stay afloat, and cope.

All of that's on top of this deep exile. And healing. Healing this, helping, this exile heal is not about fixing it at all. It's not asking it to come out and meet the land of the living in muggle terms. It's really us, and this is really a hard thing I'm gonna say, but it's us learning how to be just little bit by little bit with the terror and the overwhelm of the nothing place itself as a deep experience in our systems.

That's what [00:30:00] that's where we were before the stork suddenly brought us in, or we suddenly got, we arrived on spaceship from another planet. We were in this nothing place. So it's in there and the best thing we can do is start slowly to get to know it and we can talk about that, but, and also to be around either therapists or friends who have some capacity to also hang out with that.

We don't want a therapist asking us to be somewhere else when. That's really the ground of where we need to bear in our own systems to start to feel rooted.

Haley Radke: Using that word rooted. How many of us have gone to therapists or psychologists and you wanna deal with this, whatever issue that's going on for you, and they're always looking for the root. And when you deal with that, then that issue resolves. And so I get it. I see why that would be so critical to look at, but also because the terror is so deep, you really would have to be safe in order to look [00:31:00] at that. And I've, I know I've said this before, I don't know how accurate this is, but I really think our brains only show us like things that we're ready to look at.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Just to keep us safe.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. And I've said before on your show that this is one reason I'm a fan of psychedelic therapy because it does allow for getting access to places that our protective structures will not allow us to go into. And that's why talk therapy can take so long and be so frustrating because it's just we can't, our system is saying, no way are we going in that place. And that's why I'm a fan of psychedelic therapy and I hope that it gets legalized soon.

Haley Radke: There was so many episodes. I remember like from the, I think from the first season even, we were talking about how we have these boxes we store away in our closet and we just can't even open them because it's just too much.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. The terror. That's the word. But yet people knowing about this, I know you've had [00:32:00] a group of adoptees talk about this together when you were leading the flourish groups and just even knowing that there was something to name, it can reduce that.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Totally.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Pam Cordano, MFT: There's an upside. We're gonna talk about the upside of us even talking about this topic. Yes. Before this ends for sure. But yeah.

Haley Radke: Don't worry.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Don't worry. Hang in there. The nothing place exile doesn't just sit there quietly. It exerts a gravitational pull on the whole system.

And that's why that when there's stress or even intimacy in relationships, there's this gravitational pull that's freaking out. And this nothing place thing is a dynamic living part of us. It's not just, it's not a concept. It's not, symbolic. It's really a real thing that we have inside of us.

And I wouldn't have known that until I saw this client get there and then I felt like I got there. So when we feel fatigued or we have a conflict or we're in an [00:33:00] intimate situation this nothing place exile pulls forward and the system feels like I'm dissolving, I'm not here I'm gonna die. Like this whole I'm gonna die thing comes from this place. 'cause we did have that experience and that is the experience in nothing place. I'm gonna die. I'm getting annihilated right now.

Haley Radke: Is that equivalent to many of us, myself included having suicidal ideation.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Totally.

Haley Radke: Great.

Pam Cordano, MFT: It's also babies that are in orphanages who die even though they're, their physical needs are being met. They're, they are. They are. They go further. Those of us who have survived this, we didn't go as far into death as they, but I think it's a continuum of death. This nothing place place.

Haley Radke: So people who have this need met their whole life and identity is built on this strong structure and we just have this [00:34:00] gaping hole where the foundation should be.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. And sure there's, of course there's people that have all kinds of, they have drug addicted parents or they have violence in the home from the time they're born or they're getting really severely abused. Of course those things are like horrific for any human system, but there is a continuity of attachment even if it's really poor attachment and scary attachment or eventually disrupted attachment, there's a continuity with versus an entire break of the organism of symbiosis. It's different.

Haley Radke: So the gravitational pull to come back to the abyss is there. And if we're shaking or pushing some way. That can get triggered. Is that what I'm hearing?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. It does get and I think it does get triggered.

Haley Radke: It just does get triggered and whether we're aware of it or not,

Pam Cordano, MFT: yeah,

Haley Radke: okay,

Pam Cordano, MFT: We get triggered. We get triggered [00:35:00] and I can't imagine any trigger that doesn't somehow harken back to this nothing place for us in some way. It feels like we're talking about the ground floor of the adoptee system.

Haley Radke: This, maybe we should talk about this at the end, but what it's bringing to mind is how you've talked about adoptees as superheroes, right? And it just makes me so this is what gets me emotional. It just makes me so much more impressed with all of us who've made it and have, in any fashion we've made it and those that are working on trying to improve our lives and change things for our children and legacy and all of those things, like it just makes it all the more impressive.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Yeah. I think that for us, just living daily life requires a kind of strength and capacity. Even when life looks like a show, am I allowed to say show on your show?

Haley Radke: We are. [00:36:00] We will beep bad, but yes, you can say it, huh? Yeah. Okay. So the value of naming this is that we can work on it?

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Okay. So here's what I see the value is it's validating. Like when I brought this to the flourish groups and there were, I don't know. 40 something people in the flourish groups. I think it was everyone, if not nearly everyone, really related to this in some way or another.

And to have something named for us when the culture doesn't name it and how could they is it can feel very validating. So it's, and it's also a way of saying you're not broken. Like whatever you think you look like compared to other people in life. If we have a way of understanding what we actually went through and we start all of us, carving out like language and understand shared understandings about it.

It just gives us another [00:37:00] way to look at our lives and what you just, when you got tearful about the superpower thing, it's, it is like that. It gives a perspective so that we can perhaps see ourselves with more and each other with more compassion and awe really, and horror awe. And also, it's so cool to find language for things that happened before language was built. It's almost as if in the culture, if we can't language it, it's not, it doesn't it, it isn't there. It's not real. But yet our nervous systems tell a story and for us to find ways to language it and find shared languaging it, it gives form to the formless.

And it also creates a sense of belonging. There's a paradox because this nothing place is literally a place where there's nothing. There's no you. There's no me. There's no up, there's no down, there's nothing. And yet, once we can find each other in the nothing place, even just start to find each other in the nothing place [00:38:00] paradoxically, it's grounding. We find, oh, there's some ground this the nothing place is a place. It's not, it isn't really a no place, it's a place, it's just a horrific place. But to be there together is different. So when this client got there and then I feel like I fell in, on accident, but I'm grateful I did.

It was comforting to him. It was comforting to me that we like, oh my gosh, we both, if we're both here, it's not the same as if I'm just alone there and hiding it from myself and reacting to try and to stay out of the, out of this deeper place. And then instead of being pathologized oh, you're avoidant, you're angry, you're resistant, you're ungrateful you're, you dissociate a lot, like all these labels that, that we can be thought of or called, or it's no we can witness.

In ourselves and in each other, the deeper truth of what, what's actually happening that isn't pathological at all and it has a chance to be actually reparative in that way. It's another story besides [00:39:00] that we're screw ups, defective. No wonder they gave me away. I'm such a, I'm an inherently defective person.

And then finally, I'll say this again, that the goal is not to erase this place. The goal is to learn to be with it without the panic or annihilation terror. To start chipping away at that so that we can actually just land here and feel that root system that's actually there, but I don't know that we can do it alone. I think we need each other to, that's why this shared language, I think that's why we're doing this episode is like we're trying to give language so we can all do this together.

Haley Radke: I don't know if you remember, if you've heard about this, we've talked about this maybe before, but you even said reactive attachment disorder before, which I'm just like, it's bs.

It's like a, it's like this stupid diagnosis for normal reactions to abnormal situations and this is what I'm thinking of. I'm like, oh, this having a nothing place [00:40:00] as a part of our origins. This is a normal reaction to an abnormal situation. This is normal for adoptees to feel this way because there is a gaping void in what should have been this be begin nice symbiosis, nice beginning with our mother and it's not available to us.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I know you know this, but I'm going to link in the show notes. We have many adoptees, including people from Flourish who wrote about the Nothing Place, and there's some poetry and just moments people have captured even about when you brought this idea to them and they write about it in The Flourish Experience we'll link to that and some other folks have blogged about it. So I'll have links to a few different folks in the show notes talking about this. Is there anything more you wanna tell us? If someone wants to start looking at this to possibly look in the scary place to acknowledge it, [00:41:00] what are first steps to do that in a safe way ?

Pam Cordano, MFT: That if people are comfortable being in their own company enough, they can just start trying it on. They could go for a walk and just give it a little thought like, what do I think or feel about this nothing place thing in flourish people recognized it immediately and some people were more sad or scared about it, and other people were really relieved, like viscerally relieved about it.

So there might be a whole bunch of different types of inter of reactions to it. But also I think that if people are in therapy, bringing it to their therapist or if they have friends who they trust or friends that are adopted that they trust, they could also start talking about it a little bit there.

I think it's it's almost like it's like soil and we can just start digging a little bit in the soil, but the goal is not to overwhelm 'cause it's a tender place. It's just to, it's just to start exploring whoever wants to.

Haley Radke: And do you have anything to say [00:42:00] to someone who might listen to this and just be like, oh my gosh, this is just made up. You guys are just feeling sorry for yourself. Not that we get those emails ever.

Pam Cordano, MFT: I don't really care about those people that much. I don't even feel ruffle. I feel like now that I know this place so much more it doesn't even. If someone wants to negate it, I like whatever. I just don't have any business with them.

Haley Radke: That's such a healthy way to look at it. And I think, truly, anytime I've talked to someone about this that's adopted, there's like an instant knowing. And for people who are adopted, but perhaps haven't started really deep diving it critically, this might not resonate and that's okay. Like

Pam Cordano, MFT: totally

Haley Radke: live your best life. Don't dig if you don't want to dig.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing this with us, Pam.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. Haley, thanks so much for [00:43:00] being born actually, and keeping yourself alive, however you did that.

Haley Radke: I did it. I did. We both did it. And you are listening. You did it too. Way to go us. Way to go us.

Pam Cordano, MFT: That's right. It's a big deal.

Haley Radke: It is. And I hope this naming is more an encouragement to feel like, oh, I'm not crazy. There's nothing wrong with me. This is a normal reaction to a very abnormal situation.

Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah, if we go back to the black the black moon that's happening today and we go back to the deep exile name, what deep exiles or any exiles need is love and presence and so we can start building presence and love in for ourselves in this place and with each other, and that's what it needs. It doesn't need to do to get. To get moving and be different. It just needs love and presence to gently, slowly start coming to it [00:44:00] and that's when the light comes back.

Haley Radke: Beautiful. Thank you so much. You've been on the show so many times sharing your wisdom with us. We so deeply appreciate it. Truly, where can folks connect with you online?

Pam Cordano, MFT: By email pcordano@comcast.net.

Haley Radke: Lovely. Thank you. Thanks for celebrating my birthday with me.

Pam Cordano, MFT: I'm so excited. You asked me what an honor.

Haley Radke: I know I've said this before. I love Pam so much. She has helped me personally and so many of us by bringing language to the ethereal, the intangible of it all when we are trying to help ourselves understand what happened to us in the context of adoption separation. And our loved ones and [00:45:00] trying to explain to them like how it feels to be an adopted person existing in this world.

So I'm so deeply grateful to Pam. I'm also so grateful for all of my patrons. If you have felt value from Adoptees On, you can join our Patreon. You can search Patreon and quote Adoptees On, or go to adopteeson.com/community and folks can pledge monthly amounts or you can pay for a year and you get so many so many episodes of me and my friends talking about adoptee things. We also have the Ask an Adoptee Therapist events, which Pam is a part of occasionally. We also have Adoptees Off Script parties with Pam, and this fall we're starting a series of Adoptees Off Script parties where we are focusing in on the fight flight, fawn or freeze themes, and [00:46:00] so I know we're gonna be learning a ton more from her about those. So thank you so much for all of you who have supported the show in the past and those who will continue to do so and keep Adoptees On alive in this world. The other thing I know folks have been asking me about, and you will hear this fall more about my brand new podcast that I've been working on and you will. We'll be sharing more, I promise. So stay tuned for that. Thank you so much for listening, and let's talk again very soon.