23 Keith - Late Discovery at Age 33

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/23

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season Two, episode 5: Keith.

I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I get to welcome Keith Sciarillo to share his story with us. Keith is a late discovery adoptee and he'll tell us all about who accidentally told him he was adopted, and why his mother wanted to keep it a secret forever.

We wrap up with some recommended resources for you. And as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on our website, adopteeson.com. All right, let's listen in.

I'm pleased to welcome Keith Sciarillo to the show today. Welcome, Keith.

Keith Sciarillo: Hi, Haley. Thanks for having me.

Haley Radke: Oh, it's my honor. I'm so excited to get to hear your story. Would you please just start with sharing that with us?

Keith Sciarillo: I was born in New York City in 1979. Both of my birth parents were… At the time, they were drug addicts. The woman that gave birth to me also suffered with mental illness for a big part of her life, as well.

And also she was—I'll try to word this properly, her occupation, quote unquote, was “in the service industry” (you know, service meaning herself). But my biological parents were actually in a seven to eight year actual relationship though (you know, while everything else was going on). I was in the hospital for a month after I was born, and then right away I went to my family (my adopted family).

The adoption didn’t go through right away. It took about four years to actually go through, so I was four years old when I was technically adopted. I grew up in a family of six of us, whereas I was the only adopted one. My adopted parents have five biological kids.

Well, they actually had four biological kids, then they adopted me. Then they had another one after they got me. I guess for the first seven or eight years, I grew up in Staten Island, New York, (which is kind of like the suburbs, you know?).

I guess I should mention that my parents got divorced when I was about five years old (my adoptive parents). I didn't see my adoptive father till I was 21 after that. You know, I basically kind of grew up without him. My mom was kind of, “six of us on our own” for a while. And so that was something I was kind of dealing with, you know, for a good part of my life already.

Yeah, we lived in Staten Island for a little while. Then we moved to Brooklyn, New York, and I lived there till I was about 13, 14 years old. Then I moved to New Jersey (south Jersey) for, I was about 23. After that, I moved down to the Washington D.C. area where I basically settled down with my own little family.

I guess here's where I could mention that I actually didn't find out I was adopted till I was about 33 years old (which was about five years ago). I had already established my own little life and then come to find out I was adopted.

I guess a lot of stuff I was already dealing with throughout life (with, you know, my father and stuff like that). And then my mom, being the way she is—the way she was. I mean, our relationship is kind of better now. I don't know, maybe she was really stressed out raising six of us, but, you know, it was kind of… You know, I don't know. It was kind of a weird situation.

Well, basically the way I found out at my daughter's first birthday party. And a cousin of ours was over the house, helping us get ready for the party. I was sitting down eating dinner, my wife and him and my daughter. He said, “Oh yeah, I heard…” He said, “I just found out about you a few years ago.” I was like, “What do you mean, ‘found out about me’?” He's like, “That you were adopted.” I was like, “No way.” I was like….

And I have my birth certificate, right? I had my short form birth certificate, which doesn't have that much information on it. It only has the name, the hospital, the date. So I was like, “No, look.” I was like, “My parents' names are my birth certificate. How can I be adopted?” And this is way before I knew about what birth certificates actually mean, especially for us adoptees.

I asked a bunch of people in my family about it, if it was true or not, and people just kind of… Nobody really gives a straight answer. They don't really say yes or no. They just—they'll laugh it off or they'd be like, “What do you think?” (you know, that kind of thing). I guess I put it in the back of my mind for a number of years. Yeah, then about five and a half years ago, it kind of resurfaced in my mind. I decided to actually look into it.

I was like, Oh, that adoption thing that somebody told me about. Okay. So, being that I was born in New York, I found some resources that I had to go through, to just to even figure it out. Because nobody would tell me (even my mom). Like nobody would just tell me, “Yes. You were adopted.”

Haley Radke: What did she say when you asked her?

Keith Sciarillo: She didn't really say yes or no. She was just like, “At this point in my life, it doesn't matter how people come into families” (or something like that). But I still didn't take that as a yes or no answer. It would've been a lot easier if she just said, “Yes, you were.”

I basically ten times over, verified it. First what I did, was I got my long form birth certificate. So on the long form certificate (what I learned in New York), is that I had an extra set of numbers on there. And I also had the letter “S” in front of my main birth certificate number (which means like substitute, or something like that).

And then I also looked at the file date. I was like, Okay, I was born in 1979, but it was filed in 1983. Of course, you know that means my adoption was finalized in 1983. So that was one way I verified it. Another way was, I basically emailed the courthouse. I asked them if there were any records of a Keith Sciarillo being adopted?

And it was weird, because it took about three or four months for them to actually reply. But their answer was “Yes.” Basically just, “Yes, we do have a record of…,” but they couldn't give me any more information, of course.

But actually, here's a pretty miraculous thing in my story, I think, where everything kind of opened up. Another thing I did was I registered with the New York State Adoption Registry. And for people that know about these registries, you know, they're put into place so people connect with their biological families, but a good percentage of the time, they don't work.

I mean, people don't even know about them. It's very flawed. It's a very flawed system. I mean, obviously, we had open records. (You know, birth certificates.) That's what works. But I did register with them.

They said it should take about six months to get back some of my non-identifying information. So I was like, “Okay. That's fine.” But what happened was, I actually got a reply back two weeks later and they said, “Oh, by the way, someone else is registered to connect with me.” I was like, “Okay.” From the little bit of research I did, I was like, Okay, yeah. I know a lot of times the birth moms will look for the child. Okay. So it's probably her.

But what ended up happening was it was actually my biological father who had registered with them. So that was kind of just surprising in itself. So, you know, we connected. After we connected, our first conversation was like a two hour conversation. And you know, he told me a bunch of stuff.

He gave me my biological mother's name, you know. With that piece of information, I definitely, you know, I sought her out right away. I was able to find a phone number for her. So I called that number. A man answered the phone. It was actually her husband of 25 years, so I talked to him for a little bit.

I told him, I said, you know, “Ana…” I said, I might be one of her children. He's just like, “Oh, that's possible. She had many children.” I said, “Okay.” You know, we hung up the phone, but something was telling me to call him back. So I called him back that night and he's like, “Yeah...” He said he was so shocked to hear from me.

I was like, “Okay…” And so he's like, “By the way, you know your grandmother, your grandfather, your uncle, your aunt, one of your sisters—they all wanna talk to you.” I was like, “Okay.” Next thing I know, I'm talking to my grandparents, you know? And then an aunt and uncle. Next thing I know, I have like 50 extra friends on Facebook, just from new biological relatives.

Haley Radke: You said you talked to your birth mother's husband, but she…

Keith Sciarillo: Yeah. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention she actually passed three years before I found her.

Haley Radke: I'm sorry.

Keith Sciarillo: Yeah. It was like—I mean, honestly, when I first found that out, I think I did get a little choked up for a minute, but then all the information started coming to me, too. So I was like, No time for that.

Like, just my mind was just like “...,” (you could tell even how I am now). I'm just like… Like all the information is in my head, and I could let it out pretty easily. So, I don't really retain stuff. That's probably why I don't let things get to me too much, because I'm constantly taking stuff in and letting it out. I was having a conversation with one of my aunts and she told me, she's like, “Yeah…” She's like, “You know your mother, Ana, she had 10 of you.” I was like, “Okay. Okay. Really?”

Yeah. And actually I did remember that my biological father also told me that I have a full-blooded biological brother. She had six children before us, so actually there's only eight of us. You know, we were all given up for adoption, actually. So, you know, we all went to different families, except for two of them. We went to the same family.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. I'm just kind of in shock. That sounds like an overwhelming reunion. So many people and so much information all at once. How far between you finding out you were adopted to a reunion? What's the time span there?

Keith Sciarillo: I think I met my biological father probably about…I'd say about a month and a half.

Haley Radke: Wow.

Keith Sciarillo: You know, like I said, he gave me all the information I needed to connect with the other side. Actually, the reunion with my birth father was really great. It was just me, him, and my wife, actually.

We went to a restaurant close to me, out in Maryland. He lives in North Carolina now, so... You know, we all came from New York. Now we're a little bit further south. That's what happened with him. It was good. And then with my maternal side, a couple cousins set it up so I could go to the house and meet, you know, some relatives over there. That was in New Jersey.

So it was me, my wife, my two kids. We went up there to Jersey, we walked in the house and there's probably about 20 or 30 people there. And I'm related to, like, all of them. So, you know what I'm saying? Like they all kind of live in the area, I guess. A couple uncles, my grandparents were there... They're still alive to this day, actually.

Haley Radke: So can you go back to that moment where you're in the house with like 30 family members? How did that feel? Did you feel like you fit in? Tell us a little bit about that.

Keith Sciarillo: Yeah, I think I actually did and I think a good sign of that was the fact that I was acting really goofy and silly, like most of the time. And it usually takes a while for me to get like that with people. You know, like usually I'm not…

It's funny, because a lot of people probably think I'm really serious when they first meet me. Until I'll say something really crazy, and if I see that they laughed or something, they thought it was funny, I'll just be a goofball the rest of the time. So that's kind of how I was with them the whole time. It was pretty interesting, like when someone would say, “Oh, you look like such and such,” or “You look like….” You know, “You remind me of such…” and all that.

Basically, before I found them, you know… (my biological mother died. Also two of my uncles had already passed away before I found them). I've seen pictures of them, and they're all showing me—They're like, “Yeah, you know, you look like this one, that one.” And I do.

So, you know, there's been a lot of loss even before the reunion happened. I mean, I say, like, lost opportunities to meet people that I probably could have met if I would've found out I was adopted five years earlier.

That's kind of like the gist of basically on their side. And I'm still connected to many of them till this day. Actually, one of my uncles that I met a couple times, he passed away like two years ago. And actually there at the funeral too, there were a whole bunch more cousins and a few more uncles that I still hadn't met yet.

Haley Radke: So when you think of your meeting your bio family and your interactions you've had with them, and then looking back to your childhood with your adoptive family—did you fit in with your adoptive family? Did you ever have any, like feelings, I'm different, or anything like that?

Keith Sciarillo: As far as family goes, I'll always say I fit in with them. Because I am their family. Like, you know, they were family. They never, you know, I was never treated any differently, you know what I'm saying? I never, like— They never gave it away that I was adopted. You know what I mean? But yeah, when I think back, yeah, I do look different than them.

I mean, I am different than them. I mean, as much as I love them (and I mean, you know, we all know we're different from each other)... Actually, I think they're all different from each other, to be honest. Like all six of us, like we're all alike, we're all different.

Haley Radke: Oh yeah. People have different personalities and characteristics, for sure. For sure.

Keith Sciarillo: Yeah. Yeah. Like, but yeah, but I gotta say, I actually feel like I was different than a lot of people in general, because I—(and maybe that's also because I didn't really have anything to mirror the way I was, you know?).

When I did find that I was adopted, when I did start connecting with blood family, I think I did kind of go back to my childhood and I did start to realize things, you know? My energy and yeah, I'm definitely shorter than my brothers, you know? My sisters are all kind of like about my height and my brothers are almost 6’, about 6’. I'm about 5’6”.

Like my one brother had blonde hair, blue eyes growing up, and I'm darker and I have these greenish, crazy greenish-yellowish-grayish eyes (weird color eyes). Because my biological mother and biological father had– They both have, my biological father has blue eyes and my biological mother had hazel eyes.

So that's where that came from. A big compliment that people used to give me growing up was like, they said, my eyes were nice. Right? I was like, “Okay.” But I never, I didn't think much of it, because I mean, I didn't think about where it came from. There's so much that I learned, just from my bloodline, from my family history.

Like my grandfather on my mother's side is a World War II vet, so that's something I was like, “Oh, that's very cool.” You know what I'm saying? “That's a part of my blood.” It kind of does something for you. It's like you think, Oh wow, you know, like part of my actual history. Whereas, honestly growing up in my family that I grew up in, my grandfather was in the Navy and everything like that. But I don't know too much about his real history (or honestly, I don't know too much about our family history, really).

Maybe it just really wasn't talked about much. Maybe it wasn't talked about much with me, I don't know… You know what I mean? But then my biological family, there's so much rich history. Besides my grandfather being a World War II vet, my grandparents on my father's side were Holocaust survivors. Like that, that blew me away. I learned a lot about that, too.

Haley Radke: I think in reunion, we’re so curious about everything, everything. I think that a lot of those questions get answered that a lot of other families, you kind of think, Oh, your grandparents will be around forever. And you know, you don't kind of dig into that history.

But when you're in reunion, you just want everything. And I think maybe that's why some of us dig for those kinds of gems, and it kind of feels like you get rooted when you know those things. Yeah. That's so cool. That's really interesting history. I love that you have that for yourself now.

Keith Sciarillo: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I kind of wanna go back just a sec. Can we go back and just talk about, so you find out you're adopted and you've confirmed it yourself. What do you do when you go back to your adoptive family with this? And like, did you go to your mom and say, “Um…I have this amended birth certificate”?

Keith Sciarillo: Oh, well, I, yeah, I gotta tell you, it was really, really interesting how I broke the news to her. That I knew my wife was about to take a trip to the Philippines to visit her family, right? It was gonna be like a two or three week trip. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna take two or three weeks off of work and just take the kids to see family. That was my plan.

I was like—it was in the summertime. It was like right in the beginning of summer, around August, actually. So I already had this plan to visit my mom. I was gonna visit both of my brothers, visit my sister. You know, when I got that letter in the mail from the New York Registry saying that someone else is registered, that basically verified everything that I was adopted.

So I had this paper in my hand. And I think my mom had called me, because I was about to see her in two days, anyway. So she was asking me what kind of cereal I wanted for my kids. Right? I was like, “Okay.” And you know, on my mind is like, you know, these things are on my mind right now. So I'm like, I got really quiet on her. And I’ve got to say, like out of all the people in my life (and I know she's not like my blood mom or anything like that), but she kinda knows me better than anybody.

I mean, I hate to admit it, because we do clash a lot of times. But she knows me better than anybody, so she knew something was wrong. I just blurted it out and said it. I think my voice cracked (I think. I don't know). I was like, “I know I'm adopted.” Right? I was like, “I know I'm adopted. I figured it out.”

I don't think she really quite knew that I knew until I said, “Yeah, I know I'm half Puerto Rican and half...” It just said half Puerto Rican and half American on the registry. Because I grew up in an Italian Jewish family, and then I kind of learned that I'm a whole other race, too. So that's a whole other thing I was kind of learning about as well. I was like, “Yeah, I know I’m half Puerto Rican.”

I think when I said that, she kind of knew that I knew. She was pretty upset, actually. She was saying something about like, wanting to call New York and ask how this could happen. Like, 'cause I was never supposed to know. Like, I really was never supposed to know. I've been told that.

Haley Radke: Why do you think she didn't want to tell you?

Keith Sciarillo: What she always said was that she didn't want me to feel different. I mean, in some ways I kind of did. You know, I did look different and I was a little different anyway. But like I said, I was never really treated differently, per se. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was never singled out as different. They did a pretty good job of hiding it. To that extent.

Haley Radke: So you're what's considered a late discovery adoptee, because you found out when you're an adult. Can you tell us a little bit about that adoptee community and what would be different for a late discovery adoptee versus someone like myself?

I don't even know when I first knew, because my parents just told me, you know? From when I was a baby, obviously, because I don't have a moment where they sat me down. Like I just always knew.

Keith Sciarillo: One thing I think I noticed about late discovery adoptees, is that I think a lot of us always had an idea in our mind that that was a possibility. But it's not something that was really at the surface of it, because (for example), when people ask me, they say, “You know, you looked a little bit different and everything. How come you didn't know you were adopted?” And I just kinda say, “If nobody ever mentioned it, how would you ever know? How would you know you were adopted if nobody ever told you were adopted?”

The way everything happened with me…, you know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, I’ve been thinking about it. I did the birth certificate thing, and then I did the registry thing. And I basically got my answer with the registry, but I got more than that. I got an actual reunion out of it. Because I know a lot of people find out— You know, they'll go through their parents' belongings, or their parents will die and someone at the funeral will tell them, or, you know, they'll be in the attic, they'll find the papers... But that never happened with me.

Haley Radke: But still, to just have this cousin, kinda offhandedly say, “Oh I just found out about you a couple years ago.”

Like, “What do you mean?” To have other people know and you didn't? Like…

Keith Sciarillo: Like a lot of people knew. Actually, I think most people in my life (besides like some family friends) knew, but most of the relatives knew. Something funny happened, actually. Once I found out I was adopted, right? In my mind, I wanted to tell everybody that I was related to, because I was thinking… I was like, you know, If they ever need a kidney, I'm not gonna be able to help them. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like that kind of thing. I was worried about that.

So I called one of my cousins up. I told her, I said, “Yeah, you know, just a few days ago I found out I was adopted.” And I kind of said that to her, too. I was like, “So if you ever need a kidney, I can't help you.” Like, just kinda laughing like that.

“Oh…,” she's like, you know, she's like, “No. We knew.” Like they all knew, but actually they assumed that I knew as well.

Haley Radke: And your siblings?

Keith Sciarillo: I mean, they all knew, except for… I mean, a couple of 'em said they didn't know. I don't know. Just hard to believe that. But the ones that really did know, they said it was like my mom, you know… Out of everybody, I really do feel my mom should've been the one to tell me, anyway. You know?

I don't put any burden on anybody else for it. I think it was her job to tell me, like even my father, think about it. I really didn't have a good relationship with him. I didn't see him for years. He definitely didn't want to tell me.

Haley Radke: Oh, yeah. I agree. I mean, I wasn't implying that I thought they should have told you. I'm just–we're kind of joking about this, but to me this sounds so painful, because like everyone knows these things but you? That's not fair. I just…

Keith Sciarillo: Believe it or not, I think I roll with the punches in life, like with a lot of stuff that happens (even the adoption stuff). But I think what I've done—I've been finding positive outlets trying to deal with it. You know, I never started drinking, or doing drugs, or like taking pills, or anything like that (when all this stuff happened).

You know, what I did start doing was I did start trying to be—(I mean, I always thought I was a pretty good father, anyway). But I was like, Aw, man, I come from this situation. My kids will never know anything like that. So I'm gonna be the best dad I can be. (Even though I thought I kind of was already).

Then I started getting involved with a lot of adoption stuff. I started connecting with a lot of people in the adoption community, started getting involved with a few little things here or there, but I never really got too deep in anything. You know, I did talk about my adoption story a lot on Facebook online, and I think I connected with a lot of people that way.

And I saw this little chocolate thing I was doing. It was kind of keeping me busy and keeping my mind off stuff. I'd stay up till two or three in the morning, even though I had work the next day. I’d just make chocolates and I'd sell them. And it's funny, because actually some of my—most of my customers were other people in the adoption community. And they were just like, supporting it, you know?

I'm like, I would get back, I would make chocolates for different, you know, open records organizations. I made chocolates for a couple of them (like a foster care organization). Actually, I've always been seeking opportunities to get involved in, but it's been hard for me to really like, go full force with anything. Because I, you know, I do work a lot. I do have my little family already and I'm just always so busy.

But like, also recently I became a CASA (a Court Appointed Special Advocate for foster children). So I went through the training for that and everything, but I haven't been able to actually take on an actual case yet. I'll say this, one thing I learned–I mean, I could talk pretty openly about this, I'd say. I don't know if it has anything to do with what happened to me when I was in the womb, you know? I don't know if it has anything to do with like, you know, drugs or anything like that, or anything to do with some of the things I've read on being adopted.

I did talk to a couple therapists here or there (actually, I talked to a psychologist, a psychiatrist one time as well). I was like, you know, “I have this mental illness in my bloodline. Let me see if there's anything to that.” You know, everybody verified, they said, “No.” I guess I dodged a bullet, like as far as, you know, schizophrenia goes, or anything like that.

But they said, “Yeah, ADHD,” you know, “That's your thing.” You know what I mean? Like they said (and you can probably tell just talking from talking to me)... But, you know, I mean, everybody said, “You have this ADHD thing.” Okay. They said, “Do you want to take some medicine for it?” So, actually I did try that. I did try to take Adderall for like a couple months, and I didn't like how it made me feel, because it made me slow down.

I kind of like how I'm energetic and all that stuff. But I guess what I'm kind of getting into is like, it's the distraction part of it (kind of like what just happened in our conversation). Like, you know, I get super focused on something and I know I'd be great at it. But then, Oh, I see something else that I could probably try, and then I'll go for that. Like, that happens a lot in my downtime. Because as far as having a job (knowing that I have to go to work every day), I've been at the same company for over 14 years.

Like, you know what I'm saying? So I know I'm highly capable of maintaining something. I can maintain a relationship, I can maintain a job. I mean, I've had the same phone number for 14 years. I don't think I have that issue where I kind of jump around to different things as far as things that I know are essential to survival, or essential to life.

But when it comes to finding outlets and stuff like that, I think I need to keep busy. And I think I do need to find things to be involved in, or else I'm gonna do other stuff that may be destructive, like I may overeat. I know I'm capable of doing that.

I've had a tendency over the years (and I kind of don't do it anymore), but like, I'd have a friend from high school (who I haven't seen in like six or seven years), and I’d feel the need to just call them up and stay in contact with them. Even though I kind of know they probably don't wanna be bothered.

I don't know if that's part of my thing, being an adopted person as well. It's like, I can meet somebody and be like their best friend, like I've known them for years, but once they give me a hint (like once someone gives me a straight out hint) that they don't wanna be bothered, I'll never talk to them again in my life. And I'll be fine with that.

I've always kind of been like that and I never have any hard feelings about it. You know, that's kind of like how I am. And I think that's why I've been able to roll with the punches in reunion as well. Because you know, people do come and go, even without even realizing it. You know, we're all just busy with life anyway? Even with my siblings, my…

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Actually, I think it's a really good time to mention— I told you there's eight of us. We were all given up for adoption, right? Through a chain of events, through a domino effect, through I guess a lot of late nights, you know, researching and searching, I ended up finding all of them. Not on my own though. Not like, not on my own. I would never claim that.

Okay. I'll just go down the list real quick. There's one sister, she kind of grew up around the family, so they kind of knew who she was already. So, you know, there's one down. The Adoption Registry, I called them back up and I said, “Yeah, I know I connected with my biological father,” but I said, “I wanna give my biological mother's name, just in case anybody that's related to her is also registered.”

So I told them her name and her first name was Ana. They said, “How do you spell it?” I said, “A-n-a, it's just one N.” They said, “Oh,” they said, “We have an Ana, without last name, with two Ns.” I said, “No, no, no, it's one N.” And figured out there was a sister of mine that was also registered. The registry hit twice for me, which is very crazy.

Haley Radke: That's really unusual.

Keith Sciarillo: Yeah, very unusual, like with these registries (if you know anything about them). So like, you know, I connected with her and then she's like, “I talked to this sister.” She's like, “By the way, I found one of our other sisters.” Like, “Okay, that's cool.” And they’re like, “Yeah, this sister, she grew up with one of our brothers.” And, “Okay, awesome.” So, “Okay, that's four of us down.”

You know, I just did more research. I looked in the– There's this book in New York where you could basically (it was a birth index that you could look at), look for people's names and stuff. They've closed it, but that's helped me a lot in my search. So I basically figured out a couple of the other brothers' birthdays, and through that information I was able to see, able to track both of them down (eventually).

Haley Radke: Do you have relationships with all of these people?

Keith Sciarillo: No, no. Actually I don't talk to any of them right now, because actually two of my brothers, they both died in the early thirties. One was— He had died because of diabetes-related stuff.

So that…you know, and then there was another brother who also had diabetes. They said something happened with his medicine. I don't know exactly what, but he had a bad batch or something and he died that way. So, you know, diabetes is something that I'm very familiar with, now, that's in my bloodline. So I've been kind of careful with that over the past few years (now that I know about it).

Haley Radke: So you stopped making chocolates?

Keith Sciarillo: Well, you know, it's funny, because I… No, actually I did kind of stop making chocolates anyway, just because it's time consuming and all that stuff.

But I know it's funny, because I knew about all this information, but then I was making chocolate. But yeah.... Miraculously, like, I'm perfectly healthy. There's nothing that I know of that's really wrong with me. So my biological father, he's healthy. His line of work, he has to lift heavy stuff. So I'm like, Okay, I hope in like 20 years, I'm still, I'm that strong too, you know?

Haley Radke: And you're still in a relationship with him?

Keith Sciarillo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, we talk all the time. Yeah. We've seen each other a bunch of times. I’ve visited him, he's visited me. Yeah, he's actually been great.

It's been great. And actually, it's funny, I was just talking to him the other day and you know, we were kinda laughing about it. I said, “Yeah,” I said, “We're more like brothers. Like more of a brother relationship,” you know? That's how it is. Like, you know, we're adults; not really a father-son... I could say he would've been a great father if I knew him growing up, but it's a good relationship, though.

Haley Radke: That’s good. Is there anything else that you kind of wanna talk about before we do our recommended resources?

Keith Sciarillo: I mean, I just hope that more people would not be afraid to share their stories, whether it's just posting on their Facebook or Twitters. Or you know, talking to people, going to support groups, or even talking to somebody one-on-one, because it's good to let this stuff out. Because I have heard of people getting sick from holding stuff in.

I mean, I just say, look at me. You know, I mean, I'm seemingly like, you know, happy most of the time. I smile a lot. I mean, I say it's because I let stuff out a lot. I don't really hold stuff in and, you know, it's kind of been like a blessing and a curse at the same time. Because I do talk a lot about stuff.

If anything, I just do it so other people won't be scared to. I mean, we all have our own stories. We all have our own situations. We all have different feelings. I know we all feel different ways about “a-word" (about adoption).

I'll just use a quick little reference that came to mind. Like, I'll say it's like a tornado, right? Like this tornado's coming out, this tornado's coming at you. And you know, you see all these words like “secrets,” “lies,” “deception.”

But then when you speak your truth and you speak with compassion and caring, you have good intentions towards others, it diminishes that tornado. Those things, you know, they don't have as much power. I guess I'll just say it like that.

Haley Radke: That's beautiful. And I know that you started your own adoptee support group in your area. I'd love to do that at some point too, but mine's just online instead.

Keith Sciarillo: Yeah, no, I'm actually part of a few online groups, which have been great. The in-person group has been great as well. It's been pretty easy to do. If everybody has any questions, I can let them know. Just like, you know, local libraries usually have rooms you could get that you don't have to pay for. All you need to do is supply some snacks and get some people to show up and, you know, you're good to go.

Haley Radke: Well, those are great tips. Okay, let's do our recommended resources, and mine is actually kind of a good fit for tonight. I follow Gregory Luce on Twitter. He is an adoptee rights lawyer. He's just started a new website and organization called adopteerightslaw.com, and he's tweeting @adopteelaw. It's so cool.

He just made up this Google map that you can click on that's original birth certificate access for all the states. And so it shows which states have access and which states don't. He's tweeting all these little interesting tidbits about different states and their, whatever, archaic rules (I guess I would say).

You know how in some states, you are required to do as many as 30 hours of counseling before you can access your records (things like that). Just really interesting things that I never knew. He's tweeting about that and he's updating his website, and he is just a new voice in the adoptee community that I really encourage everyone to follow.

I really look forward to what he's gonna be doing on his website. And he mentions on there, he's like, “I'm not trying to duplicate other work that's been done, just come alongside and supplement.” That's something I really would love everybody to follow. And he's got a Facebook page as well, so I'll link to all of those in the show notes.

And you brought a couple of blogs for us, Keith. Why don't you tell us about those?

Keith Sciarillo: Okay, sure. So yeah, the first one is, No Apologies for Being Me. It's actually run by one of my friends, Lynn Grubb. She's been really great. She's been… Well, she's been in a couple of books. And if you check on her blog, you'll see all of her information on there.

And then the other one is A Story with No Beginning: A Late Discovery Adoption Journey, by another friend of mine, Kevin Gladish. I hope he'll forgive me if I said his name wrong. But yeah, so, something I very much related to (being a late discovery adoptee as well).

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's great. I've been researching late discovery adoptees for a while and I'm not finding very much. So I'm really glad that you brought us Kevin's blog, in particular.

Thank you, Keith. Where can we find you online?

Keith Sciarillo: My name is Keith Sciarillo. I'm on Facebook. My last name is spelled S-c-i-a-r-i-l-l-o. Yeah, that's basically me on Facebook.

Haley Radke: Okay, awesome. I will link to your Facebook on our show notes.

Thank you so much for sharing with us tonight. I really think it'll be so valuable for our listeners to hear your story and some of your ups and downs. So thanks so much, Keith.

Keith Sciarillo: You're welcome. Thanks again for having me.

Haley Radke: Keith has made even more connections with his biological family than we even had time to discuss. His biological father has a teenage adopted son that Keith shares a birthday with. Wild.

If you wanna see some photos of Keith's chocolates, you can look up Jasijay Fine Chocolates (which is named after his kids). And they're on Facebook or Etsy.

I've got a new invitation for you. I've been telling you for a while about my secret Adoptees On Facebook group, which has turned out to be an incredibly supportive place. And I have another awesome thank you gift for partners of the show at the next reward level up, which is access to an unedited podcast feed. And the first episode of that special podcast will be out very soon.

Now is the perfect time to join, so you won't miss out on any of those bonus episodes. Adopteeson.com/partner is where you can access those rewards. I keep forgetting to share with you that Amy was the winner of the three recommended resources for doing my listener survey. I hope you're enjoying your reading, Amy!

Thanks to everyone who filled that survey out for me and to Anne Heffron, Liz Story, and Mary Anna King for generously furnishing copies of their books for that giveaway. Amy, Anne, Liz and Mary Anna are all a part of that secret Facebook group, which you can access @adopteeson.com/partner and watch for that unedited bonus podcast, coming out soon.

Would you do me a favor today? I would really appreciate it if you would share this episode of the podcast with just one person. Maybe a friend that likes chocolate? You could share a box of chocolates and listen to Keith's story together. Thanks for spreading the podcast love.

Next week, we've got an episode of the Healing Series for you, and we're gonna talk about how to tell your adoptive parents you are searching for your biological family.

Thanks for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

22 [Healing Series] When You Don't Find Answers with Katie Jae Naftzger, LICSW

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/22

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Haley Radke: You are listening to adoptees on the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we discuss what to do when you search and you don't find any answers.

Let's listen in.

Katie Naftzger is an experienced psychotherapist who works with adoptees through the lifecycle, adoptive parents, and families. Welcome to Adoptees On, Katie.

Katie Jae Naftzger: Thank you so much.

Haley Radke: I would love it if you would just spend a couple minutes introducing yourself to us.

Katie Jae Naftzger: Well, I am a Korean adoptee. I've been a psychotherapist for almost 20 years. I was someone who didn't necessarily consciously think about my birth parents throughout my childhood, and it was really the first, they called it the first international gathering of Korean adoptees, which was in the year 2000, that I was sort of interested in going to, which was in Korea and there were like 400 Koreans who went to that. And it really felt like it made sense to at least initiate a search at that point. And so I was just starting grad school, I think. And so I basically made the decision to initiate something and they didn't come up with much at that point, and so it was a pretty short process. But I actually initiated a second search a little bit later or several years later, which I can also talk about.

Haley Radke: What I know of your story is that you actually haven't really found anything and that's one reason I really wanted you to talk with us today because there's a lot of adoptees, especially international, but not even completely international, some domestic as well, that have searched and just come to roadblocks. And can't find the answers that they're looking for. They've done DNA testing, they've hired searchers, the works. They've done everything that they can think of, and it just looks like they're not gonna find anything. So can you just tell us a little bit more about that part of your story and what do you do to reconcile that in your own mind? Like maybe I'm not gonna find the answers that I really want. Katie Jae Naftzger: It was a really interesting trajectory to that point, cause I, I do think I have gotten to that point where I feel content with what happened or didn't happen. And so fast forward several years later, I became interested in writing a book. It's a different book than the one that I'm, I actually wrote, but back then it was a book about a young adult being a young adult adoptee. And so I approached Betty Jean Lifton, who is now passed away, but she was in the Cambridge area, so I did approach her given that she had written two books and I wanted to get her advice on how to write the book or just pick her brain a little bit about what the experience was like for her. And when I met with her, it was interesting. She really hammered home that I need to search, which is also interesting because I had already searched and I did tell her that, but somehow that didn't really change anything. She still just kept talking about how I needed to search again, and that I needed to do it because I was a therapist and I needed to do it because I needed to get my, get my hands dirty if I was gonna understand the search experience and if I was gonna work with a lot of people who have either searched and found or searched and haven't found that I needed to have as much experience in that area as possible.

I took her seriously and I started doing some research and literally a week later there was something that came up on one of the feeds on a service trip in Korea over Thanksgiving. It was the week of Thanksgiving, and I just jumped on that. And so that became the catalyst for me putting in the paperwork again and just wondering if I was going to come up with something because the hard thing about international adoption, and this may be true in domestic adoption too, is that sometimes they don't tell you everything the first time. Sometimes there are things in the file that you didn't know were there. Sometimes they make sort of fabricate things that you thought were true, that aren't true.

Just because I didn't get any information before didn't necessarily mean that I wasn't going to get information the second time. So I made this journey to Korea. Actually, my adoptive mom and I went together and it was a tour. And I hadn't found anything by the time the tour happened, I think I might have had a kind of a hope that something would've come up, that they would've taken my request seriously.

And I had heard that they take requests seriously, especially if you are coming to Korea, so that can sometimes help your case a little bit for them to prioritize you. But anyway, they didn't come up with anything. And so I went on this tour and really, most people on the tour were meeting their birth family and so initially I just felt completely alienated, maybe even more lost than I was before the trip. And I was wondering whether this was even a good idea. My daughter was very young at the time, she was three years old. And I just was thinking, I left my family for this, and why, how is this gonna be good for me?

How is this gonna help me? And we were on the same floor. Our room, our bedroom was on the same floor as the infant care unit in the adoption agency which was Dylan Adoption, which is not, was not my agency. But anyway, that was the agency sponsoring the tour. And it just so happened my flight was late and so I came in really late and I went straight to bed. But throughout the night, I could hear all of this crying from the infant care unit, which was a few doors down, and I literally almost heard it also because I was jet lagged almost the whole night. There was almost no time where there wasn't someone in that infant care unit crying.

And it was really intense and it happened actually almost the whole week that I heard this crying. And I became aware of this urge that I had and and the urge was for me to run in there and say, they're not gonna choose you if you cry, like shh. They're not gonna choose you if you cry. And that alone really helped me to just really understand how embedded these issues are.

I was doing fairly well, I was doing fine in, family, career, blah, blah, all that stuff. And just to realize that was so embedded inside of me was pretty raw actually. And I guess also pretty helpful to me as a person, but also as a therapist.

Haley Radke: That's so interesting, Katie. And it, you say that and my heart just breaks a little bit because you said in your intro that you didn't ever think of searching or, but that's to come to that realization that yeah, there's still this piece that's kind of broken, like hurting,

Katie Jae Naftzger: Yeah. I think it's hurting and then it's also I guess, I was also realizing how much of a survival issue adoptees can feel like they're in the middle of it. It's not just a story of abandonment, or relinquishment, it's also a survival story. And so when we as adoptees don't wanna feel vulnerable, or don't want to express vulnerability, or don't wanna cry or don't wanna show certain things, it's not just because we're embarrassed or shy or reserved. It's because deep down we also feel like this could be a risk, that this could be a risk for our life in some way. Yeah so that happened and then we actually had two meetings with birth mothers in Korea and during the first meeting, again, a lot of people were meeting their birth mothers.

And I wasn't, and my mother was also, I don't know, she was very emotional about the whole thing as well. One, during that meeting, one of the moms asked me directly. I just, I think that we had just forged a connection somehow. She asked me directly, what's the hardest part about being adopted? She asked through a translator. So it wasn't a quick interaction, but, and I just completely broke down, which I can never tell when that's gonna happen. Exactly. And so I, I just got really upset and said, not knowing any information, that I don't know anything. Then there was all this, there was all this chatter back and forth that, which I couldn't understand because it was in Korean.

And they're talking to the translator. The translator are talking back and I'm thinking, what's going on? And then the translator explained to us those of us on the tour, they're saying, why wouldn't she know that's wrong? They're really upset about it. She deserves to know her story. She deserves to know what happened to her.

There was something about that moment where at that moment I could let go my need to search that. There is something about being heard by mothers who are also birth mothers, even if it wasn't my mother. And there was something about having a witness to that. And the power of the group, you know that there were a group of them, one of them actually put their baby on the table in a in a hold, in a kind of crib kind of thing. One had their hundredth day birthday party for their baby, and they were all there because they were trying to make a decision about whether or not to relinquish their child. And so they were there in the kind of remainder of the days that they were pregnant and making these decisions with the support of one another.

So there was something about that really for me and once I felt like I had that witness and once I heard them say she, why is she, why does she have to go through that? She doesn't deserve that. I really just was able to let go and it also affected my work. I also now say, look, you don't deserve that. You deserve to know the answers. You deserve to know who you came from. You deserve to know why, what happened and there is something really validating about that. And it's so interesting how we often don't say that, and I'm not sure why, but we don't often just say, look, you didn't deserve to go through that, and you shouldn't, that should, that's not fair. That's not just.

Haley Radke: What a powerful moment. What can you tell us about creating that moment for ourselves? Like maybe we're not maybe the ones I'm really thinking of, a lot of them are baby scoop era and there's closed records and they're just, all the doors are shut and so they don't get a chance to go on a tour like that possibly but what are some ways that they can create some of those moments for themselves to really come to that place of healing and feeling understood.

Katie Jae Naftzger: I think it's really hard to feel empowered alone, and there is something about the power of group and so that that's one thought is that, if you can do it in a group of people who also understand and if you can talk to people who are in a group who also understand, that was really part of the power for me.

One of the ways I talk about adoption is that it's an experience with no words, no witnesses, and no documentation. And so part of the first challenge is just being able to find the words to describe the experience because it's actually really hard to capture the experience in words.

It's sort of an abstract thing that a lot of people say that's just human, that's just about being human. No one wants to be abandoned or whatnot. But it is so much more than that and that is where I start with my clients, let's just try to find the words together for what you're going through and what you're describing without even trying to fix it or help or change it or, do anything with those at right away, but just to find the words. And then I, let's say as a therapist, I become that witness. I am that witness to their scariest fears and their, the things that they feel are intimate and that they feel a lot of maybe shame or kind of despair about. And then the third piece is the documentation that, one positive of social media is that people can choose to express their experience in ways that last like the books and like podcasts and like other kinds of writing and films and documentaries, and so I think that really is the next step. And then I think the final step is possibly trying to help other people who are going through things that you know that you can understand.

Haley Radke: Once you've come to this place of peace. What do you say to someone like me who keeps probing and thinking like, are you sure you don't wanna find are you gonna not gonna have another trip to back to Korea? Like, how can you just stop looking? I don't understand that, because I've found my biological parents, which is, I'm very fortunate that my search was easy. But yeah, what do you say to someone like me who keeps probing those things?

Katie Jae Naftzger: It's, I think there, there might be, a style difference too, that, everyone has their own just way of trying to come to terms with these things, and I think there are people who will go to the ends of the earth to, to possibly find what they need to find, even though the odds are still low.

I guess I also know that older Korean adoptees, I, and I'll put myself in that category in the sense that it seems like a lot of Korean adoptees in their twenties and let's say early thirties, have had a lot more luck. And so for me, there's always a cost to searching. I was away from my family. It was extremely expensive. It takes a lot of time. There's a lot of turmoil and it's really far away. So if it was a domestic adoption, I might feel a little differently that I can just continue. And in a way that makes it more complicated because there's not a clear boundary about that, that I can't be just putting my life on hold and traveling back and forth to Korea.

And I think also the other part of people's personality is that I'm not gonna go on TV and you know, put my name all over the Korean papers and get a detective and all that stuff. I'm just not, that's not, I'm not gonna do that especially because I know the odds are so low.

Haley Radke: Korea has quite an established program and there's a lot of adoptees now from some of the really a lot poorer countries that there is no, there's just no way, like even if you traveled there, what would you find?

Katie Jae Naftzger: It really is like trying to find a needle in the haystack. And I think that was true for Chinese adoption too, that it's still extremely difficult and maybe even more difficult because they have even like less documentation and evidence than witnesses and all that stuff. And then the film Somewhere Between happened which was a wonderful film and it was really exciting to have that be become so mainstream, that it was so popular, but it also skewed the idea of the search a little bit. And I do think it opened things up for Chinese adoptees who had been able to close that door, that look, there's no chance. And then they see Somewhere Between, and now they're really in a lot of anguish because they still know that there's barely any chance.

And so how much of their emotional psychic energy are they going to spend? How much of their money are they gonna spend? And time? And these are also, at least let's say my clients, they're also emotionally vulnerable anyway. And so they're always trying to balance, how do you take care of yourself and also leave yourself open to that at the same time.

Haley Radke: And I think that's such a good thought to end on. You gave us those few different steps that we can do. But yeah, just coming to that place, where am I gonna keep looking or I'm gonna, just gonna close this door forever or for right now. Katie, thank you so much for sharing a part of your story with us and for those wise words. Where can we find you online?

Katie Jae Naftzger: My website is adoptiontherapyma.com.

Haley Radke: And I will link to your social media accounts on our show notes as well. And you have a new book that's coming out that's called Parenting In the Eye of the Storm: The Adoptive Parents Guide to Navigating the Teen Years. And this book is for adoptive parents, but I'm finding a lot of insights for adoptees as well to read it. Yeah, check out Katie's book. You can find info about that on her website and it's also on Amazon. So thank you again for your time. It was so nice to introduce you to our listeners.

Katie Jae Naftzger: Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity.

Haley Radke: Whether or not you're in the position of coming to a dead end with search, I think those four steps that Katie laid out for us could really be helpful for coming to terms with a lot of adoption issues. First, find the words, find someone to be a witness to our story, document our story in a tangible way, and finally help someone else along the same journey.

Friends, I feel like this is a lot of what we are doing here together on this podcast. Adoptee On has been getting some tremendous support from our Patreon supporters. So a big thank you to all of you. You know who you are and if you wanna join them and become a partner of the show, you can access our secret Facebook group, which has some really lovely adoptees in it.

They are incredibly understanding and supportive. AdopteesOn.com/partner is where you can sign up now. Today, would you tell one friend about this podcast? Do you know someone who has had a really difficult time searching? Maybe they'd be interested in hearing Katie discuss how to find that sense of peace.

Thanks for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

21 Anne - Adoption Trauma Leaves a Wake

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/21

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season Two, episode 4, and I'm your host, Haley Radke.

I get to welcome Anne Heffron, author of You Don't Look Adopted, to the show. And I want to let you know we touch on some extremely sensitive topics, including suicide and sexual assaults.

We actually joke around quite a bit, but you know our hearts are for adoptees and for healing. In fact, last week's special Healing episode is all about adoptee suicide. So if you want to learn a bit more about that topic, you can find it on our website, adopteeson.com, or in your podcast app.

Anne goes deep into all kinds of things in her story today, including failures that she attributes to adoption trauma, things she's working on to find healing, what “write or die" means to her. And we find a way to laugh a lot.

We wrap up with some recommended resources, and as always, links to everything we'll talk about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Anne is a part of our Adoptees On secret Facebook group, so stick around until the end of the show to hear how you can access that.

Alright, let's listen in. I am pleased to introduce to you Anne Heffron. Welcome to Adoptees On, Anne.

Anne Heffron: Oh, Haley, thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Haley Radke: Me, too, I'm so ooh-la…. (See, I have no words). I'm so excited to talk to you and get to share your story with everyone. I'm excited.

Anne Heffron: You, too. You know what, I hike and I listen to your podcast when I hike. And I was devastated when you took a break. I thought that was a terrible idea.

Haley Radke:It was a terrible idea. But we're back now, so it's okay.

Anne Heffron: Yeah, don’t do... I don't vote for the break.

Haley Radke: Well, we can talk about self-care at some point in this episode.

Anne Heffron: Oh yeah, after. After you finish it.

Haley Radke: After I finish recording? Okay. Wow, I'm so glad…

You don't know this yet, because we are recording just before the first episode goes out, but… Well, you know, I plugged your book, but what I said was, “Hey, it's my #1 fan's book.”

Anne Heffron: I am your #1 fan. If anyone's bigger than me, they'd have to be a stalker. And that's not a fan anymore, that's illegal.

Haley Radke: Okay, well then I…

Anne Heffron: Your show changed my life. I mean, how can I not be a fan?

Haley Radke: I'm gonna have to cut this all out. Stop it. [laughs]

Anne Heffron: It's gonna be super short.

Haley Radke: Oh, dear. Okay, okay. Well, thank you for gushing. I love you, too. Your book was amazing. I already gushed about it before, but please, why don't you start and just share a little bit of your story with us?

Anne Heffron: I was born in New York City in 1964, and I was adopted 10 weeks later. I grew up knowing I was adopted, but it wasn't something that we really talked about in my house. I had a brother who was adopted when I was... (I was ‘64, he was ‘60. He was two…). We adopted him two years later, and now I think he was a drug baby.

He was very difficult. My mom couldn't hold him. And he still suffers. And then we adopted my second brother when he was two. His father was African American. We lived in a white town. My brother (when he came), his name was Terry, but my parents gave him the name Sam. He changed the name himself when he was in first grade.

But when Sam came to us, he didn't speak. And you know? There was no mention of trauma. No mention of where he had come from, nothing. So it wasn't until I started going seriously off track when I dropped out of college for the first time, and that's when I had the idea of looking for my birth mother.

I found a search agency in Boston. It was Susan Dark (I don't remember names, and I still remember her name). And I think it took me 15 years after first getting Susan Dark’s number, and actually doing the whole process. And when my daughter was a little girl, I got a letter with identifying information. And I got a photograph of my birth mother and she looks like me, and it was such a good feeling.

And then I did everything wrong, from that point on. I called her. She said I had the wrong person. It was like she'd been waiting by the phone. She said I had the wrong person, it wasn't her. And she gave me a whole story about how it was her cousin (or something). And I was thrown off, so I just asked her if she could write it down and send it to me.

And so she did, and then she asked me not to contact her again. And a while later, I did get a letter and it was the same story. When my daughter was little, I wrote to her one more time and I said, “I don't think you're telling me the truth. I think you're my birth mother.” And she did write back and say, “You're right, but please leave me alone.”

And I let years pass. And then I told a friend of mine about it, and she said, “Well, why don't you contact her again?” And I said, “I can't.” And she said, “Well…” Well, it's a long story, but I ended up at Borders bookstore. I looked her up. I hadn't even Googled her name or anything, and I found out where she worked. And I emailed her at work and I said— (because I had found out she had two sons)....

And I said, “I want to know, if you won't talk to me, I want to know your son's information, because I want to talk to them.” And she wrote back, she was really upset (you know, this is on Blackberry, you know, in a bookstore). And she said, “This was closed.” So I said, “I'll tell you what, I'll leave your sons alone if you tell me their story.”

And she wrote back and said, “I was date raped. You are my birth daughter. Please stop.” And I did. And it felt so good. Like I, even the… You know, rape sounds so ugly, but it made sense to me and I thought, Okay, I know. Just the knowledge felt really good. (Gosh, this story gets so long. I mean, it's like this forever process, right? Of ugh…)

I mean, I took this autobiography class and I thought I was gonna be better than everybody in the class. And I wrote my stuff, and I read it out loud to the class. And the teacher said what I'd heard 20 years later in graduate school, which is, “You have great dialogue, but you stay on the surface.” And I started bawling, because I realized I had to write about both mothers. And I never went back to that class, because I wasn't just crying. (I mean, there was snot coming outta my nose, you know, it was like big crying.)

And I went home and I Googled her, and her death certificate came up (or her death announcement). And it was recent, but it said that she had two sons and a daughter. So then I just went, I just said, I don't care what people think of me or if she gets mad, and I called her work. And she wrote a book. And so I called the person that she had written the book with (because they worked together).

And I said who I was and I said, “I want to contact her daughter.” And she said, “Well, I really don't want to be talking to you, but I know that this is her daughter's name. I'm not sure of her last name. I think it's the same, but I know she works at this magazine.” So I looked up, and I found her right away.

And so I emailed her. And I got an email back when I was on the treadmill at the chiropractor’s and it said, “You know, this is overwhelming for me. My mother died not too long ago, but I'm gonna forward this to my brother.” (And I forgot to say that the daughter, her name's Anna. And my name's Anne, and that's just a coincidence.)

And she's a writer, and I've read her stuff and her voice is so familiar, so similar. (It's also familiar.) And her brother stepped up to the plate. He came–-I was living in Palo Alto at the time, and he came to my house. And it was probably one of the three greatest moments in my life, to have this big man…

And we went and had lunch, and my daughter and my husband (at the time), and my half-brother, we and my half-brother, we went to a Chinese foot massage place. And we all lay in a row and we got massages, and we just sat around and watched TV. We had similar gestures. It was really wonderful. It was complicated—he has another brother who had no interest in meeting me.

And Anna…I did everything wrong. I mean, every time I would correspond with her, I would say the wrong thing. And she was not kind. But when I was in New York writing my book, we actually got together. And she has a daughter out of wedlock, and she invited me to her first birthday party. When I walked to the boat, I went to New Jersey, and I went to her daughter's first birthday party.

And I started getting a migraine on the way there, and I called my friend and I said, “Who do I say I am?” Right? “Because I don't know if she told her friends.” And my friend said, “You say you're Anne.” I was like, “Okay, I could do that.” But I look so much like her mom, that her friends who were there were thrown off. And it was nice to be there, but she doesn't talk to me anymore and I'm not sure...

Well, you know, I think it's: reunion is complicated. And the brother doesn't talk to me (and I'm not sure if he's ignoring me or…), but the fact that I got to meet them was tremendous. So when I was in New York writing my book, I did find my birth father, which I thought would be impossible because nobody would give me any information.

Not a thing. And what was wonderful was his wife said that I'm not family, so that he can't talk to me. But his brother has stepped up to the plate, and his brother flew me to Montana, recently. And they made space for me in their family. And he had read my book three times. And the last day, he sat me down and he said, “I want you to hear something.”

And I said, “Okay.” And he said, “I love you, and I'll never leave.” I’m a little shut down. My heart is shut down, so I hear it, but I still don't really believe it. So I have to… My brain, you know, I have to keep telling my brain, He loves you and he'll never leave. This is a real person. I actually find myself a little bit, now, wanting to push him away. So I called him two nights ago to connect, because I think it's a skill I have to… I think I'm so afraid that I don't even let myself feel.

Oh, one last thing—When I was in Montana… I always sat on the fringe of my family. Like my family would sit around the kitchen table and I would sit on the chair on the side, right? I'm not a—If you said, “Hey, do you wanna go get coffee?” I'd be like, “Uh…You mean sit around and talk?” (Actually with you, I'd probably love to do it.)

But with this family (so it was my uncle, and his son, and his son’s children, and my uncle's wife) and I sat down. They said, “Well, we have to tell you something.” And I said, “Okay...” And they said, “We're really smart, but we're gonna talk about pooping and farting.” I said, Oh my God. That's how I am! And the dialogue, it was like music.

I think in my family, I'm a little rough and a little loud, and so I didn't quite fit in. And in that family, it was seamless. And I have a lot of feelings about that, because it's Ahhh, I've already have my life, right? I'm 52, and so I can't just say, Well, this is my new life, right? I mean, I have my family. I'm trying to learn to be bigger. I mean, as an adoptee, I'm not supposed to take up a lot of space in my life, but I'm trying to learn that it's okay to be big. And it's okay to have two, (like however many) families.

I don't know how it's for you, Haley, but it's hard.

Haley Radke: It's extremely hard. This is the first experience I've had with adding another family. My adoptive parents have stayed married, my husband's parents have stayed married… I understand, families of divorce, then you've got, you know, the two sets and then they multiply and it kind of spreads out that way. And that's the only thing I could think to sort of compare it to, except it's another whole set of complete strangers (at first). You know? It's very bizarre.

Anne Heffron: But it is. Yeah, it is bizarre and it's also… I mean, on my birthday, everybody called me. Right? And so it was just…

I'm actually going to this (he's a chiropractor, but he is not really a chiropractor. I don't know what he is)... He works with a lot of the Sharks (the hockey players, not the fish). He works with Sharks and adopted people. But I went to him and I said, “I need you to work on my brain.” Right? “There's something, it's my brain and my stomach.” Right? Like, “I'm trying to…I have good things that are happening and I'm not changing. I'm still as upset as always.” And I said, “I can feel it, now that I've slowed down more, I can feel that my brain is doing…”

I'll be fine, and then all of a sudden, I will be in the worst mood, or so sad. And I didn't catch what my brain said, but it was something. And then my stomach gets sick (and my stomach's been sick my whole life). And so he did some research and he found this protocol (and the Sharks call his hippie [censored] and they'll call him for an appointment and he'll say, “What do you want?” And then they'll say, “Oh dude, I just want the hippie [censored]”).

Because it was for me, it was for the trauma. And it's applied kinesiology and it's working with the nervous system. Because I could feel it; it's my nervous system. Something happens, the chemicals flood my body, right? Like I'll think my uncle will write, and I'll be so happy. And then something will go ding!, and then all of a sudden I'll be not… I'll be in that same place where it makes me want to overeat or spend money—anything to get out of that situation.

Haley Radke: My dad and his wife were just here this weekend (my bio dad), and they were here and it was amazing and so wonderful. And then the next day, I am totally depressed.

Anne Heffron: Yeah. Isn't that awful?

Haley Radke: It's like this just withdrawal and, yeah. Yeah. I understand what you're saying.

Anne Heffron: Yeah. How did you deal with it? Like how did you…?

Haley Radke: Well, I wish I hadn't drank all the wine with them. I don't know. I have an appointment with my psychologist? I don't know. I don't deal with it.

Anne Heffron: I mean, I'm older than you are, so I think I've been feeling it for so long that it's actually wearing down my body. And so I can't, I don't manage it so well anymore.

And when my mom died (five years ago), that's when I started falling apart. And by falling apart, I mean my brain actually stopped working. I went to a doctor, I thought maybe it was hormones. And she made me get an MRI; she was afraid I had a brain tumor.

And I truly think it's adoption. I truly think that when my mom died, it was like, All my life, I've been getting in trouble and then my mom rescues me, right? And now she's dead and she can't rescue me. And no one can rescue me, but I'm still getting in trouble.

And I realized just recently, I wanna be rescued the right way. Like I wanna keep giving (especially my mom) the chance to… It's like we got rescued when we were adopted, right? But it wasn't right. No matter how loving our parents are, it wasn't the energetic track that we were born to. So there's that sense of Something's a little wrong. And I think part of my brain was like, Okay, get in financial distress, or drop out of college, and then she'll come rescue you and this time, you'll feel… If you write and say you need money, and she'll send you money. You'll feel rescued.

And I've been doing it for 52 years, and I mean, I can't believe that I can't be rescued. I still grieve that, you know? I grieve that adopted children (babies) had to have that feeling of… I was thinking about when my daughter was born (she was a little jaundiced and they put her on a light bed next to my bed). And she didn't cry when she was born and she was really mellow, but she started to cry when she was in the bed. And I looked over at her and I could– If I reached out, I could just touch her with my fingertip and she stopped crying.

And I've been thinking about that moment a lot, because I feel like when I touched her with my fingertip, I sealed her skin (like she was safe in the world). My contact, my energy is the same as her energy. And so she was separate, but she felt that energy. Because my skin doesn't feel sealed. Do you know what I mean?

I used to date a lot, because I just want to be hugged (like I wanted someone pressed up against me). But sometimes I don't like to be touched at all and I feel like a burn victim. And I feel like— (actually, the chiropractor that works on me, he was severely burned. And his skin is a project for him.) And I was thinking, I wish adopted babies came home with protocol for, “This is How You Take Care of Their Skin.” Right? Because we are not going to have the same kind of energetic seal that we need, because no matter how much they love us, it's not the planet we came from. Right?

But there must be ways—I believe... Our brains are plastic. You know? We're survivors, Like, surely…just rock us more! I want to go to Japan, because I'm sure they have something where they have a hug machine. (I actually looked it up. They do make this thing that hugs you, but I want it to be like the womb. A hug machine where you can just go in there and get rocked, and hugged, and come back out.).

Haley Radke: Sounds like you've got your next business idea. You are so funny. Okay, but let's go back. Let's just talk about… Like you're talking about lots of feelings and things. That's really, really wonderful.

Can you outline some specific things that you've dealt with that you can attribute to adoption trauma and what that looks like for you?

Anne Heffron: I got fired. I was a teacher for 17 years and I was at a new school, so I wasn't really familiar with the rules. But when my mother died, I was going through a divorce, and my daughter didn't get into a school she really wanted to get into. And I had to leave her at home, and I was afraid that… I was afraid. I had left her alone, and I didn't like that I had left her alone.

And I went into the class. It was at college. And one of the students was talking. I threw a pen at him. And I didn't just throw a pen, I said the f-word, and I started crying. I mean, and I watched myself have a breakdown. And I feel like my whole adopted self has been trying to hold itself together. And by “hold itself together,” I mean, deal with almost constant depression and be really confused by that (because I don't think I'm a depressed person).

Like I'm this really funny— (I'm not, I mean, I'm not saying I'm funny). I mean…

Haley Radke: But you are.

Anne Heffron: Yeah, but I am. And so the depression confuses me and it's constant, but I always just think, What is that? And anger. I'll get really angry out of nowhere. And confused. When my best friend growing up read my book, she said, “Oh, my brother said, ‘Oh, I thought she was a space cadet, but she was adopted.’” And it's that I think my brain is just always trying really basic questions: Where is she? Why did this happen? Where am I? Who am I?

And it's the back brain, you know, it's the emotional brain, the brain that makes decisions, and I don't even know it's doing it. So I'm living like a child, but I have an adult body. So I think things that happen because I'm adopted—I think I dropped out of school a bunch of times. I'm very smart, but I didn't do well in high school. I was thinking about, even athletically. I didn't make teams because I would like, my body would shut down. You know, I'm a body worker and there's this muscle testing where you can see if food (or anything) is good for you by testing how your muscle responds. You know, if you held a candy bar and I tested it, probably your muscle would get weak.

I think adoption makes me weak. And so I'm trying to find, how can I reprogram my brain so that I can use adoption as opportunity instead of loss? And I think we need to change the stories, that the way it's presented isn't working. (And I know I'm going off topic right now, but all of a sudden I got excited).

Haley Radke: That's okay.

Ann Heffron: But I had this idea the other day because, you know, I learned that people who adopt get tax write-offs. And I was thinking, What if, when you get adopted, they put $1,000 in your bank account for when you're 18 and $1,000 in your bank account for when you're 50? As sort of a token of appreciation for your loss?

So then when you're 18, right, you just get some cash and they're like, “I'm so sorry for your loss.” Right? But you feel good. You're like, Oh my God, I have probably… (now it's $4,000). And when you're 50, it's… And also it'll cut down adoption suicide, because they'll be thinking about the money.

Right? They're like, you know… [laughs] I mean, I want some prizes for being adopted. I think we deserve stuff. All we get is just, we get the short end of the stick.

Haley Radke: I can’t get it together! Oh my gosh. [laughs] Okay, but like cash for therapy, right? Not like cash for your midlife convertible. I don’t know...

Anne Heffron: And adoption is so expensive. If I think about all the money I have spent because I'm adopted, on therapists who didn't know anything about adoption? So they were a complete waste of time...

Haley Radke: So tell me, okay, let's stop there.

What made you realize that all of these things that are happening in your life, what made you relate that back to being adopted?

Anne Heffron: I was lying in bed and this image came to me of what it must have…(and I wasn't actively thinking about adoption. I don't know why this happened). And I just got this image of what it must have felt like for me to be born and then to not go to my birth mother.

And as soon as I got the thought, I did what I usually do, which is say, Okay, push it away. Right? Don't… But instead, I said, Okay, feel it. Right? And I gave myself permission and it shocked me because I thought, Can you imagine? You have just gone through the most traumatic thing probably you'll go through as a human (being born) and the flesh of your flesh, the thing that made you disappears.

It blew my mind. And then I talked to the guy I was dating at the time (who's a healer). And he said, “You're 50 years old. Stop talking about adoption.” And then I lost it. That's when I decided, Okay, I'm only gonna talk about adoption.

Haley Radke: So this is like just the last couple years?

Anne Heffron: This year. It's been one year. It has been—Because you know what happened? I mean, crazy things are happening. The author of The Help (this wonderful book), I met her and she said to me, “Oh, if you ever need a place to write, you could have my apartment in New York.” And I said, “Oh, that's so nice. I don't think so. Right? Like, how could I…?”

And when that guy said that to me, I wrote to her. I'm like, “Okay.” And I ended up staying there for three months. And it happened to be blocks from where my birth mother—where I was born. Because she was at NYU when I was conceived, and Kitty's apartment is two blocks from NYU (a few blocks from…).

And in three months, I wrote my book and I just wanted to get it… I mean, I went through–-I've gone through two husbands. I've been bankrupt twice. It was like nothing was working. My brain wasn't working anymore. I couldn't stop crying. I didn't. I was, as I just thought, I think it's adoption. And in my book, I thought I was being so radical by suggesting adoption was trauma.

I was like, Okay, I'm gonna write this. And then I get home and I start reading more and I realize, Oh my gosh. So now I'm working on this other book that's killing me because it's so much harder.

Haley Radke: I'm just thinking back to what you said at the beginning about your autobiography class and how like “surface” and things? Because your book is not “surface, whatsoever.

Anne Heffron: So I went to school for writing. I have tried for 30 years, I tried to write. And I didn't know how to get underneath the surface, and the problem was I couldn't talk about adoption. And adoption was everything. I just didn't know it. And so I was trying to write the other books I'd been reading, but it wasn't until I let myself write the way I think. So my book is fragmented.

Right? There's errors in it. I didn't even… People are angry at me on Amazon, because the book (it’s a rough draft). But if I didn't self-publish it, I wasn't gonna. If I edited it, I would've edited it all out. I mean, I had to just get it… I'll never do it again, because it doesn't feel good to be an English teacher and have a book full of errors.

But that, I mean, I wrote one section about—I wore the same pair of underwear for a year when I was in high school because I was too afraid to ask my mom to buy me new underwear. And I really struggled about keeping that in, because I thought, I don't want people to know this. I just… But I thought, You know what? If you wanna show what it's like to be in the brain of an adoptee, right? This is important. Because parents won't think, “Oh, my kid doesn't have enough self-esteem to ask for new underwear.” It's not even in the realm of people's thoughts. Right?

But I want people to know: being an adoptee is so unpredictable. The guy I am dating, the other day, we were talking on the phone. He said, “Well, I'm gonna let you go.” And I said, “You know, can you say it a different way? Because…” [laughs] And you know, I can make it funny, right? But I'm learning that almost everything is a trigger for me.

And that is overwhelming. I mean, I don't have a job right now. I can't—I read that people are afraid to face their adoption, because their life will fall apart. And my life has fallen apart. And so I feel like I'm on this fast track right now that either I'm gonna end up homeless (and well, my worst fear is homelessness), or I'm gonna be this successful author, teacher...

And honestly, it's like neck and neck right now. It's happening so fast and so I'm trying to—I've decided I'm gonna have faith. And because I have to believe that there's a higher power, I have to believe that I'm not in control, that there's a higher purpose, because otherwise it's too scary.

But I think my brain, half of it is adopted. And so half of it kind of wants to destroy me, like half of it— I think when you're born and you get separated from your birth mother, part of who you were kind of dies. And the worst part of me, the hardest part to live with is the part that wants to finish that off, right? And just say, Okay, let's just stop. This is too hard.

And then there's the other half of me that's, you know, a totally normal person that wants to make the best of her life. But I have been fighting myself my whole life and I think that's why I've confused my family and my friends, because they see my positive attributes. They're like, “What is your problem?” Right? ”Like, why…?”

And I think I said in my book, “It's like I have my foot on the gas and the brake at the same time.” And so I'm trying to learn How do I get my foot off the brake? Why do I have to keep punishing myself? You know, I would just like to be able to be happy and to accept myself. And that's why I'm going to Mark Lucas (that chiropractor) and I go to a life coach (Katie Prevell). You know, I'm going to Lesli Johnson, to do EMDR in L.A. I'll meet with Joyce Pavao in Boston (she's a therapist). I mean, I think it's community. I think community will save me. You. Right?

I think for adoptees, it's because: when you feel different, you isolate. And so, you know, I'm used to it. I spend a lot of time alone and I like it, but I'm not sure that I do that to protect myself? Or if that's really what I like.

So this year has been about facing the adoption and I… Boy, I hope next year I have money in the bank and I feel good about myself. [laughs] And I'll buy you a present.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's my goal is to get some presents,

Anne Heffron: Yeah. We all like presents!

Haley Radke: I mean (to be fair), the hat I'm wearing, Carrie made me. So…

Anne Heffron: Oh, okay. Now I feel guilty. Well, I'll send you my socks. [laughs] Is that the same as knitting it?

Haley Radke: Did you wear them for a year?

Anne Heffron: [laughs] No, but I'm going to now, and then I'll send them to you.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Anne Heffron: Wear them for a year…

Haley Radke: Well, and I can create my very own Anne out of a Petri dish. Right?

Anne Heffron: You can have her.

Haley Radke: Okay. I hope I get the happy one.

Anne Heffron: Yeah, me too.

Haley Radke: Okay. So it took until you're 50 to realize there's something going on with this adoption thing. What do you say to other adoptees who (I mean, if you've listened to the show before, we use that lingo) that they're still “in the fog”?

Anne Heffron: When I was in New York writing, someone that I'd gone to high school with contacted me. And he said, (We weren't friends in high school. I mean, we weren't not friends, but…) And he said, “You know, I don't tell anyone this, but I'm adopted.” And he said, “I don't…” And so he called me, and we talked, and he said, “It's not a big deal to me, but I saw what you're doing. And I just wanted to check in and, you know, I'm really happy with my family...”

And so this was in, I think, June. And since that time, (you know, he's a guy who was not interested in adoption). Since that time, he found out who his birth mother was, and a few weeks ago he drove to South or North Carolina and met her. And she wrote me a note saying that she's been thinking about him every day for 50 years. And she thanks me.

And to me, like someone who is “in the fog,” I don't believe it. I don't believe that adoption doesn't affect them. And I think anything that you hold in hurts you. And you know, even though this year has been super rough emotionally, I feel like I still go high to low. And my lows still get pretty low, but my highs are higher and they're purer.

It's not like a sugar high. It's like an, Oh my gosh. I really love myself high. And I feel like, for people who are “in the fog,” I just think it's saying they're not affected... I mean, if they're not affected, I don't know if… Maybe people aren't affected by adoption, and that would be awesome. So I don't wanna disqualify that, but I'm highly doubtful.

Haley Radke: In your book, you talk about deciding to “write or die.”

Anne Heffron: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And so what would you challenge us to do? What should we do with those unspoken words and feelings that some of us are storing up?

Anne Heffron: Oh, I love that. Do you know what changed for me, was I went to New York and I was gonna write the book. And I get there and I'm in this beautiful apartment. I mean, the most beautiful place I've ever stayed. I still can't believe that happened.

And I was there for two weeks and I was doing the same kind of writing I'd done my whole life. And then I had this writing thing on Martha's Vineyard, so I went to Martha's Vineyard and I was stuck. And I wrote something and then I felt terrible about what I wrote. It seemed so childish and needy.

And my friend who was checking in every day (every day, I would send him my writing), and I sent him that and he said, “Well, that's it. That's your voice.” And I thought, Oh my God. Because basically what (I think I put in my book), but I was talking about: I'm afraid I don't have a story. I'm afraid I don't have anything to say. I'm afraid I'll never love somebody.

I forget, but it was all the things I had—You know, I would use humor to cover up or like beautiful sentences. But I didn't know how just to state my raw feelings without trying to make them pretty, or funny, or even… I mean, it was another reason why I leave the typos in my book, because feelings aren't neat.

And I wanna show people it doesn't have to be right or good; you just want it to be true. And so what I learned was: I finally learned how to hear my own voice. And all I had to do was get really quiet, and then just write whatever I heard. And what had happened in the past was as soon as I started hearing it, I would doubt it. Right?

Because, you know, if I said, “I hate adoption” (or something), I would hear my mother's voice, right? “You can't hate adoption.” And so then I would cross it out. But because I had three months to write and I didn't have— I got myself out of my home situation. I mean, I got to hear myself. And so in these classes that I teach, I have people do exercises that maybe they haven't done before.

Because in school, we're taught, “What am I supposed to say?” Right? “What does the teacher want me to say? What am I supposed to say to get an A?” But especially for an adoptee, if you can listen to yourself? That's an adoptee's biggest problem, is that he or she doesn't feel heard or understood. And we ignore our own feelings because we agree with everybody around us, right? Oh, I must be mental, or there must be something wrong with me. Or Adoption can't be this bad, right? I'm just a baby.

But somehow I learned to trust that voice, and then the writing was so easy. (Not easy, like—I did throw up in New York.) For my Write or Die classes, I use this picture of me on the bathroom floor. It’s this beautiful hand-laid Italian marble floor (it wasn't a bad floor to lie on). But you know, one of my biggest fears was like, If I have so many feelings, what if I throw up? And then I threw up and I was like, Ah. Look at that! Right? I didn't die. And then I just went back and I wrote.

And sometimes it would just be a sentence. Sometimes I would have to walk around the table for hours. Because I realized that for me, being an adoptee is like being a Mexican jumping bean. You know how the Mexican jumping bean has that thing that makes it move around all the time? So I had this little thing in me, this little like black seed that was so uncomfortable my whole life, that I would move around trying to get away from that discomfort.

But it was me, so I could never move around enough. And in New York, I finally had to sit down with that thing and listen to it. And what it was saying was, I am in so much pain. But the miracle was, I was in the most beautiful place. I mean, it was the perfect gift because, you know, I was in the place where she wrote The Help. (You know, which the title is no small irony). And I wish for every adoptee, if I could do the same thing… You know, I think that writing is so essential. And it's taking the time to listen to yourself and to not dismiss anything.

You know, like eating's become easier for me because I used to—I overeat daily. I need to overeat (it's just what I need to do). And I used to judge myself, but now I'm like, Eh, I'm adopted. Right? I'm just, Of course I'm hungry. Right? Like I was born, and then they give me a bottle, and the wrong person's holding it. You know? Like I'm still looking for that first good meal. And so, like a big deal. And it's so much easier. You know, so it's not that I don't have the behavior, but I don't judge myself. Because I realized it's like I had little dental tools and I was just picking at my brain all the time, right? You're bad. You do this, you're bad.

And now this wonderful adoptee, Julie Maida. She has a blog called Next Life, NO Kids. And her latest blog post is about being adopted. But she told me to read this book, I think it's called How to Be a Badass? (transcript edit - You Are a Badass?) And so I read it and it said things that I'd heard a million times before, like “Use positive affirmations.” And usually I'm like, Ugh, positive affirmations…. But I did it. And I walked around saying, “You're wonderful. You’re wonderful.”

And my brain was like, “Ahhhh, I’m wonderful.” Like my brain felt like someone was buttering it. I couldn't believe it. It makes me feel good just to say it now: I'm wonderful. Instead of, Hey, when are you gonna get your act together? Right? Like the little dental tools. My brain is so tired of me beating it up. What if we're all just wonderful?

Haley Radke: I'm so glad for you that you're able to start doing those healing things for yourself. So you said that you're going to be going to see a couple different therapists.

Anne Heffron: I know! Everybody.

Haley Radke: You're seeing everybody. Everybody.

Anne Heffron: Well, you know, my daughter's 19 and I'm hyper aware of— You know, I think about my relationship with my mom. And I just don't wanna hurt her anymore than I have with my behaviors. And so I want my brain to be good, so that when I show up for her, I'm in a good space (because I haven't always been that way). It's very painful to think about, but she seems to— She's all right.

Haley Radke: Our time is quickly evaporating.

Anne Heffron: I appreciate you. Thank you.

Haley Radke: Is there anything else that you wanna touch on before we talk about our recommended resources?

Anne Heffron: The chiropractor that I work with? He talks about that in my brain (what it is) he calls it malware. That it's like when you stub your toe, you start to limp to protect the toe. And I think of that as adoption. It's like you're adopted and you have certain behaviors to cover up the pain.

But the brain compensates, right? So the brain gets used to the limp or the brain gets used to covering up adoptive feelings. And it's this sort of an energetic shutdown. And I do believe, like for adoptees, that if we can— I'm so excited about all this research about neuroplasticity and I do believe there's hope. Yeah. Amen.

Haley Radke: Yes. Yes, there is. There is definitely healing available to us. I love what you said about the brain before, right? Just calling it plastic that– It is. It is. There's definitely things that we can do to heal ourselves.

Anne Heffron: Yeah....

You wanna do the recommended resources?

Haley Radke: I do. And I better start, because…

Anne Heffron: I cut down my grocery list. I cut it down.

Haley Radke: Okay. I was gonna say, Anne has 20 things for us, so get your pens out.

Anne Heffron: Actually, I added something.

Haley Radke: Okay. So my recommended resource today is the website Dear Adoption, and that's run by Reshma McClintock. I connected with Reshma today and she sent me her three main goals for the site.

So the first one, she wants “to provide a platform for adoptees to share and find community within her community through the sharing of stories.” The second: “to educate and provide insight to adoptive parents, prospective adoptive parents, and anyone that's not an adoptee.” And third, “to propel the necessary changes that are needed within adoption.”

You know, those are really beautiful goals and they're similar to mine with my podcast. And yeah, I love the variety of things that are posted there, all different perspectives: from domestic adoptees, transracial, international... It's a big mix. And there's quite a collection up there now, so I definitely recommend going to check it out. (I'm assuming you have, since you have something posted there.)

Anne Heffron: Yeah. Well I couldn't believe the work that she's put into it and how smart she is. It's…yeah, it's a wonderful site.

Haley Radke: Hmm-hmm, hmm-hmm. Definitely. And you said that she's got a documentary coming out? She was born in India, I think…?

Anne Heffron: Yeah. It's about her going back and looking for her roots.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Wonderful. We'll have to watch out for that.

Anne Heffron: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. That's it. I saved all my time for yours.

Anne Heffron: Oh, you did? I'll go fast.

Haley Radkey: I'm just teasing you. No, don't fast. Just do what you would like to say.

Anne Heffron: I was thinking about— Male adoptees seemed to talk less than female adoptees. So I was thinking for them (the men in the crowd). One of the first books that I read about adoption was by Tim Green and he's a football [player]. It was written in 1997 and it was called A Man and his Mother: An Adopted Son's Search.

And then the lead singer for Run-DMC, Darryl McDaniels, did a talk on The Moth called “Angel.” I've listened to it so many times and he also…. It's about him meeting Sarah McLaughlin (the singer). And they (on YouTube) have a video. They're both adopted. They have a video of them singing “Just Like Me,” which I've watched maybe a million times?

Lori Holden, a mom who has adopted. And she has a website (lavenderluz.com) and she wrote a book called The Open-Hearted Way to Adoption. (transcript edit - Open Hearted Way to Open Adoption.) She's a wonderful spirit in the adoption world. And one of the first people who I wrote to in the adoption world, his name's Adam Pertman, and he wrote a book called Adoption Nation. And the last one that I'll say is Joyce Maguire Pavao. She is a therapist in Boston and she wrote a book called The Family of Adoption.

What I have found in this adoption world is it's about community, and everyone that I've reached out to has talked to me. So those are—That's my list.

Haley Radke: Well, that's wonderful. I will put links to all of those in the show notes.

Anne Heffron: Oh, thank you.

Haley Radke: The adoptee community is really welcoming and we've had several guests before recommend just connecting with fellow adoptees, so you don't feel alone. And that's why it's so important to share our stories. Someone's going to hear your story, Anne, and they're gonna be like, Oh my gosh, my brain doesn't work, either.

Anne Heffron: She owes me money!

Haley Radke: So I shouldn't use your real name?

Anne Heffron: No!! Let's call me Alice.

Haley Radke: Okay. Alice, how can we connect with you online?

Anne Heffron: So I don't do Twitter, because I don't understand it. But I am on Facebook (under Anne Heffron) and my email address is anneheffron@gmail.com. And I have a blog. It's anneheffron.com

Haley Radke: And you have links on your website to find copies of your book. Right?

Anne Heffron: Right. And yeah, that's on Amazon and lulu.com.

Haley Radke: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I so appreciate it.

Anne Heffron: You're such a wonderful interviewer. Thank you so much.

Haley Radke: I have a little update for you. Anne is now figuring out Twitter as well, so you can find her @anneheffron and I'll have links to all of her social media accounts and the recommended resources on the adopteeson.com website. Anne is one of my generous Patreon supporters, and she's a part of the secret Adoptees On Facebook group.

This private and safe space for adoptees is my way of thanking you for partnering up with Adoptees On. We've got a mix of past guests and listeners just like you, who are looking for that intimate and supportive community that Anne and I were talking about. Only myself and the other members will know you're a member and now is the perfect time to join us. Visit adopteeson.com/partner for the details.

Did you know March is a special month where podcasters from all over the world are asking their listeners to find someone who doesn't know what a podcast is? So, I wanna get in on that. Would you find someone today that doesn't even know what a podcast is? And why don't you recommend one or two of your favorite shows to them?

And when you share a podcast and you tell a friend about it, use the #trypod. That's T-R-Y-P-O-D to let the show know that you have recommended them and that other listeners can find it.

Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

20 [Healing Series] Suicide with Melissa K. Nicholson, LMSW

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/20

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we have an extremely sensitive topic and I just wanna give you a content warning. We are gonna be discussing suicide sometimes in a graphic manner, and so please listen at your discretion. We'll be talking about some warning signs, how to get help, how we can intervene, and also therapies that are beneficial for adoptees who may struggle with suicidal ideation.

If you're up for tackling this difficult subject with us today, let's listen in.

Melissa K. Nicholson is an adoptee and psychotherapist who specializes in helping adopted teens and adults who have experienced complex trauma and loss. Discover a life worth living. Welcome to Adoptee On, Melissa.

Melissa K. Nicholson: Thank you for having me.

Haley Radke: I am so pleased to introduce you to our audience, and I would love it if you would just share a little bit about yourself with us.

Melissa K. Nicholson: I'm in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I was adopted around, two, two months after my birth mother, who was in her thirties at the time, relinquished me. So I spent a little time at foster home before going to my adoptive parents. I also have a adoptive brother who's five years older than me and biologically unrelated.

Personally, I felt that being adopted has impacted my life in many ways. Mainly, I've had to find this sense of who I am and being with myself and that person in a loving, compassionate way whenever life throws me something, I feel difficult at time. I'm in Reunion with my birth mother. While in graduate school, shortly after having my son about, about a year after actually, I found her via an adoption registry website, and have been in contact with her, ever since.

And as far as my biological father have been in search, but have yet to hear back.

Haley Radke: How did you decide to become a therapist?

Melissa K. Nicholson: From the time that I was little I wanted to be a teacher to having a, an extra sensitivity to my friends and those around me. So I first actually went to school to become a veterinarian, which changed to education.

However, I realized after volunteering at a crisis hotline, that I wanted to be a therapist. And it wasn't until after my son was born, after my reunion with my birth mother while I was working at my first full-time postgraduate job, that I wanted to work with adoptees. I felt that I had something to share given my experiences as an adoptee and saw a need in the community.

Haley Radke: You've probably heard us talk about it on the podcast before. We so need more adoption sensitive therapists, so that's great. Thank you. I asked you to maybe tackle the most difficult subject in our healing series so far, and that is adoptee suicide. We've all heard that stat that adoptees are four times more likely to attempt suicide.

Is that even true? What can you tell us about that?

Melissa K. Nicholson: The research does show a link between risk of suicide and adoption. We're aware that the trauma in adoption, separation from one's mother is trauma. So even babies relinquished as an infant can struggle with trust attachment as children and adult.

So in cases of abuse and neglect where a separation occurs in foster care, let's say trauma can be greater. The effects of adoption trauma like anxiety, depression, hopelessness, self-harm, those can also increase risk of wanting to die. Some adoptees feel disconnected and different from their adoptive family.

They feel my mother didn't want me, and what's wrong with me? Then there's this message, whether it be from society or directly from adoptive parents in some cases that you know, they, you're special or you must be grateful. And so this can create a, an environment that's invalidating.

And so when someone invalidates, your emotional experiences are rejected and ignored or judged. And so when invalidation happens, an emotional distress can worsen and can feel hopeless in that case. And I would also like to add that there is a genetic link to suicide just in general.

So people who have a biological, a marker of, whether it's depression or even suicide in their biological family are at greater risk also. So there's that component too. So when you kinda add that with the trauma piece that can, have the double whammy so to speak.

Haley Radke: What are some of the things that we need to look out for in ourselves? And then also maybe, our friends that are adoptees.

Melissa K. Nicholson: So warning signs could be you're feeling like you just don't want to get out of bed in the morning. You don't have, you're really lacking motivation. You could be using alcohol to escape from your problems. Looking for a way to even kill yourself. Looking online for materials or means to do so. Withdrawing from your friends and family.

Sleeping too much, or too little even. Another sign is calling people to say goodbye. Writing notes to people, loved ones, and giving away your belongings.

Haley Radke: So if we notice that we're having some of these thoughts, Melissa, can we reach out for help or are we already stuck?

Melissa K. Nicholson: No, if you, if you have a planner, seriously thinking about suicide and please reach out for support. There are hotlines to call like 1-800-273-talk. That's the one that I know about. It's national hotline. Or contact your local emergency services and you deserve help and you deserve to live. Finding someone that you can trust. Having a support network is really important. So making sure this person or persons is someone that is willing to listen without judgment.

There's a lot of misconceptions around suicide. Like people who attempt or die by suicide or selfish, quote unquote. This is not, that's not true. People who are suicidal are in extreme amount of emotional pain, and the only way that they, they feel that they can end this pain as by ending their life.

There are many ways to solve the problem, and suicide is not one of them. So the important thing is, to remember is suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Haley Radke: If we are seeing some of these symptoms in a friend, how can we help them?

Melissa K. Nicholson: I think the most important thing, number one, is to listen and try not to offer to cheerlead or talk them out of it. Like I was saying before about that invalidation piece, I think that a lot of people get really scared that they're gonna lose their friend and, that's very understandable. However, it's. If people aren't allowed the space to express their pain, they can't get to the level of being able to problem solve ways out of it.

They need to, have that, like I said, that space to, talk about what's really going on. So listening without judgment, offering your support and letting them know that you're there for them.

Haley Radke: And if we know that they have a plan already, what, what's the step? Like, do we contact emergency services?

Melissa K. Nicholson: Yeah. If you know that somebody is, they're saying 'that's it. I am have a gun to my head, or pills, I've already taken pills', for example. You definitely want to make sure that they're gonna be safe. So that's the number one priority is that they are safe. And so to ensure their safety is the top priority. And then, so if you call, or have them call and make making sure that you're with them. That kind of thing, letting them know that you're there for them. That you care about them. That this is something that you.... you wanna see them live because you really care for them and their life.

Haley Radke: Okay. So you, mentioned a 1- 800 number and that's for the US I'm assuming. So whatever country you're in, you can just Google Suicide hotline or distress hotline, to find some support services. Is that right?

Melissa K. Nicholson: Yes. I'm not sure outside of the US what suicide hotlines are. The 1-800-273-TALK is the main one here in the US.

They have separate lines for people who are veterans, people who are, actually people who are associated with the NFL.

Haley Radke: Oh yeah.

Melissa K. Nicholson: They need one for adoptees. Specific lines for different populations that struggle with suicide. It can be really helpful to, I think that maybe some of the, depending on your community might have a local hotline that you can call as well. Google can be your friend in that way too.

Haley Radke: If someone already has thoughts of suicide and now we're getting them help, what's, what are the interventions that are most helpful for adoptees?

Melissa K. Nicholson: I have been trained in D B T, which is Dialectical Behavior Therapy. And that's a, a treatment that was originally developed for people who have been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.

And so I'm not saying everybody would, the adoptee has borderline personality disorder, but, it can be helpful for a variety of issues. People who struggle with high intensity of emotions and self harm, anxiety, those kinds of things. High sensitivity to emotions and have a difficult time regulating their emotions.

So when they feel, when they're really reactive to, let's say, a situation, and then it really, like a trigger, let's say, and then it really, it takes a really long time to calm down from that situation or that emotion. D B T really helps to help manage your emotions. Kinda like this phase one treatment to get you to cope, to get through the crisis.

And then, after that then there's the more, the trauma work. EMDR can be really helpful. And then mindfulness. Mindfulness is a part of D B T. Self, just having some compassion, self-compassion. Body somatic therapy. So connecting your body with your mind. So body mind therapy type work can be helpful.

Haley Radke: So definitely intervention with a professional.

Melissa K. Nicholson: Yes. Yes. And I think that what really helps too is having a support, like I said before, with the support network, because a lot of times adoptees feel so alone. And so having, getting around having a support group, finding a support group of other adoptees can be really helpful to decrease that feeling of isolation.

That's why, your podcast is really helpful to have that connected. Oh, I feel this way. I'm not alone. And so that can decrease those feelings of, oh my gosh, I'm not alone in this. I have somebody else who's struggling with the same thing. It's not just me. I'm not a failure as a person.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much, Melissa. That was really helpful. And I will put links to everything that you mentioned in our show notes so people can go and have a look and look for those phone numbers as well. And where can we connect with you online?

Melissa K. Nicholson: So my website is www.mkntherapy.com. I'm also on Twitter and I'm also on Facebook.

Haley Radke: Awesome. And you've got links to those on your website?

Melissa K. Nicholson: Yes, I do.

Haley Radke: Great. Thank you so much for sharing with us today and talking us through a really hard topic. I really appreciate it.

Melissa K. Nicholson: Thank you so much, Haley, for having me.

Haley Radke: I just wanna tell you a few things before we say goodbye for today. You are incredibly valuable and you have a purpose here. I may not know you in person, but can I tell you something? I love you and I want so many good things for you in your life. You're worthy of love and you're worth helping.

Melissa told you that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and I wanna echo that and tell you that there's nothing so big that can't be tackled with help.

If you've considered suicide or ever have thoughts of self-harm, please reach out for help. Find a friend who listens or call one of the support numbers we've got listed for you in the show notes. You're not alone. There's a big adoptee community out here to support you. Reach out and I truly believe that you will find someone who understands what you're going through.

You can find the show notes at AdopteesOn.com, and there's also a contact page there. Feel free to send me a note if you need some ideas of where to connect with fellow adoptees, but I get terribly swamped with emails. So if you're in urgent need of support, please make that phone call first for immediate help.

Thanks so much for listening, friend. Let's talk again next Friday.

18 [Healing Series] EMDR Therapy

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/18

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

One quick reminder: Grab your smartphone right now. Go to adopteeson.com/survey as it is the last week to enter for the giveaway of three recommended resources. You can help shape the show with your input. It's two minutes of your time max. That's adopteeson.com/survey. Okay, so the survey's done, right?

Great. Thank you. It's time to get started. Today we tackle EMDR therapy and why it's incredibly helpful for adoptees. Let's listen in.

This is Lesli Johnson, a fellow adoptee and licensed therapist who works to help other adoptees connect the dots of their story and live authentically. Welcome, Lesli.

Lesli A. Johnson: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Haley Radke: Okay, today's question I have for you is about EMDR. So I had an adoptee email me and she was so sweet.

She was unpacking her story a little bit for me and was very candid and said that she struggled with post-traumatic stress disorder and that EMDR has helped her tremendously. I've also had a couple of sessions of EMDR, and that was a number of years ago. I. I can't remember exactly what we did, but I remember feeling like it was quite beneficial.

But I would love it if you would explain to us what EMDR is and how it can benefit adoptees, in particular.

Lesli A. Johnson: So EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, which is quite a mouthful, and it was originally developed by Francine Shapiro to alleviate the distress associated with traumatic memories.

An easier way to understand EMDR is to think of it as an integrative therapy. It helps the brain, the left and right hemispheres of the brain, to communicate. And if we think about trauma, when something traumatic happens or when something happens that is perceived by an individual as traumatic, that memory gets stored in the brain in a maladaptive way, an unhealthy way, and the person develops certain beliefs about themselves that continue to grow.

So I'll give an example in terms of an adoption experience. If a person is repeatedly in different foster cares, that's considered traumatic, but they may start to believe about themselves, “I'm not worthy,” “I'll never be loved.”

And so then they go through the world gathering “evidence” to support that idea. And what EMDR allows a person to do through the method of bilateral stimulation, which is, again, stimulating the left and the right hemispheres of the brain either using tapping or eye movements or bilateral tones with headphones, is it allows a person to reprocess the memories and they get stored in the brain in a more adaptive way as actual memories.

So a person who's experienced trauma, a lot of the times when they get triggered, they feel like they're being re-traumatized. That the memory is happening in the present. So EMDR allows the memory to be reprocessed, stored back in the brain. They can look on it and say, “Yes, that happened,” but they no longer have a somatic representation of that memory. Meaning their nervous system doesn't get activated when they think about that memory.

The way that I work with EMDR with clients who are adopted and why I think EMDR is so useful and so phenomenal is that you can work with memories that are implicit.

So if a child or baby is separated from their first mother at birth, they don't have an explicit way to describe what happened because the language receptors of the brain weren't even developed. So that memory is only encoded in their nervous system.

But our bodies remember everything. Bessel van der Kolk has a great book. He's a trauma therapist and talking about how our bodies and nervous systems store everything.

EMDR can work with just body sensations and beliefs around, around maybe what? What does “body sensation” mean? So often adoptees come in and they talk about how they don't feel grounded, they don't feel lovable, they feel lost, and they're not able to track that back to a specific memory that they can describe.

But we just work with the body sensations and the belief “I'm lost” or “I'm ungrounded.” Or “I can't be grounded” or “I am not lovable.” It's incredible. And there's a specific EMDR therapy called Attachment-Focused EMDR, which Laurel Parnell developed. And I primarily use that with my clients who were adopted.

And that involves not only the standard EMDR protocol, but a lot of imagery and tapping in resources. It's really incredible to see the results of the EMDR work.

Haley Radke: I remember now one of the sessions of EMDR that I did with my therapist at the time. She had me write down some phrases that I need to start believing about myself.

Like, “I am worthy,” “I am loved,” things that are true but aren't, deep down, true inside. And she just had me read them while she had the two paddles that I held in my hands. Yeah. What would that do, do you think? I don't know.

Lesli A. Johnson: That might have been some of the resource tapping which, when I work with my clients, before we even start the EMDR, we do something called resource tapping.

So we tap in, I also use the little hand pulsers, which are just little pulsers that the person holds in their hand and they buzz alternately. The tapping in of the resources is we tap in a peaceful place, a wise figure, a protective figure, and a nurturing figure. And the idea is that the brain responds when we bring it to mind just like trauma.

A person who's had a traumatic event, when they get triggered, they're catapulted back into the trauma. So the veteran who's returned from war, when he hears a car backfire, his reptilian brain comes online and he's not thinking, “Oh, that is a car backfire.” He's back engaged in war.

The tapping in of resources is using that idea but tapping in positive resources. So bringing to mind a peaceful place or a peaceful state, the person imagines themselves in a place where they feel safe and peaceful and we bring in as much sensory input as possible.

What does it sound like there? What's the air temperature like? What does it look like? What are the sounds you hear? And the areas of the brain, the pleasure centers of the brain, light up. Perhaps not as fiercely as they do when the person is in this place, but it's kind of front-loading the brain with this resource.

And we do that with a calm, safe or peaceful place, a nurturing figure, a protective figure, and a wise figure. And those are also resources that the person can take out the door with them and strengthen. We're wanting to strengthen neural pathways and neural nets.

So that's a tool that they can have outside of the therapy room. And then also we bring those in as interweaves during the EMDR process. So if a person's processing a painful or scary memory, I might say, who could we bring in to help you? Or what would bring in my protective figure?

And again, the brain responds to this very nicely. So, a very long answer to your question. It sounds like maybe your therapist was doing some of that tapping in of positive self-beliefs.

Haley Radke: Yes. And I think my other ones, now that we're talking and all my memories are coming back, I think one of the other sessions would've been dealing with the whole grief of relinquishment. And so I'm sure that those are some things that you would do as well if you had someone that was an adoptee.

Lesli A. Johnson: Absolutely. And the Attachment-Focused EMDR allows us to create. Even though it didn't or may not have happened, we can create. There's a protocol called a pre-birth protocol.

So having the client imagine, for adoptees some of us don't know our before-birth circumstances. So again, these things didn't happen, but I can have the client create in their mind, in their imagination and, again, bringing in the sensory elements.

What was that like? What was conception like? What was birth like? I realize it sounds out there, but it actually is very helpful and curative.

Haley Radke: The science behind it, connecting your two hemispheres and all of those things that you explained at the top. I mean, that's why it works?

Lesli A. Johnson:Yeah, it's very evidence-based now. So, as out there as it sounds, it really is evidence-based and really effective in working with trauma. And I think more and more people are finally realizing that the separation trauma that adoptees experience is PTSD.

It is PTSD. It is trauma. And that a baby does remember. People say, “Oh, but you were just a few weeks old, babies don't remember.” And we now know through all of the brain signs, we know babies do remember and their nervous systems remember. Their bodies remember.

Haley Radke: Thank you. That is a wonderful explanation and I think I get it. Tell us, where can we find therapists that do EMDR?

Lesli A. Johnson: I would recommend that if a person was looking to find an EMDR therapist, that they go to the EMDR International Association website, which is emdria.org. They can type in their state and find someone who's trained in and certified in EMDR.

Haley Radke: Excellent. And this is something that we need to do in person, right? We can't do this online.

Lesli A. Johnson: I think it's most effective when the person is in the room. However, I have worked with people who would just do their own tapping or they would have their own little hand buzzers.

But I think I feel best when it's done face to face.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. Thank you so much, Lesli. Where can we connect with you online?

Lesli A. Johnson: You can connect with me at either of my websites. The first one is yourmindfulbrain.com. The second is asktheadoptee.com. Or Twitter. My Twitter handle is @LesliAJohnson.

You can also connect with me on Facebook at Your Mindful Brain.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much.

Lesli A. Johnson: You're welcome. Thank you.

Haley Radke: I just love Lesli. She is so amazing. She also did the “Surviving the Holidays” episode with me a few months ago. And I recommend going back and listening to that one if you have any big events coming up where you might be around some people who aren't particularly sensitive to adoptees or adoption issues.

She gives some very helpful tips and I'm still using some of those strategies daily. She also just wrote an article about EMDR and adoption trauma, and that's on goodtherapy.org. And I'll also link to that in the show notes on adopteeson.com.

If you're a part of our secret Facebook group, come and let me know if you've had EMDR or have considered it. I'm going to share what I remember about all of my EMDR sessions and even what my current psychologist has shown me about EMDR with my four-year-old son.

What's the secret Facebook group? It's for partners of this show. A big thank you to all of you generous patrons, thank you so, so much. It's a secret group, so no one, but myself and the other members will see that you're a part of it.

And our current members include many of the guests we've had share their stories with us. It's small, intimate, so your voice won't get lost in hundreds of comments. adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. And if you have any questions about it, just send me a note on adopteeson.com.

Please don't forget to do that survey for me. If you didn't do it right away at the top of the show, it's adopteeson.com/survey. That'll help me get to know you a little bit better, and then you can enter to win three of our recommended resources. Those are You Don't Look Adopted by Anne Heffron, Bastards by Mary Anna King, and A Series of Extreme Decisions: An Adoptee's Story by Liz Story.

And this is your last week to enter, I'm going to be drawing that winner shortly. Make sure you're subscribed in iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We are even on YouTube now.

And lastly, before we say goodbye. Would you tell just one fellow adoptee about Adoptees On? We are really building momentum with the show, but please don't assume your circle knows about it.

Maybe you'll be the first one to get to tell your adoptee friends about the impact Adoptees On has made in your life and can make in theirs. That would be so amazing. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.