155 Celebrating 500K

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/155


Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Episode 155. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Welcome friends. I'm so glad you're here with me today. Today's show is a little different because I asked one of my dearest friends to come and celebrate a milestone moment with us. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, welcome back to Adoptees On, Reshma McClintock. Welcome, Reshma.

Reshma McClintock: Hi, Haley. Thanks for having me again.

Haley Radke: I'm so excited 'cause you're here to celebrate with me.

Reshma McClintock: I am here to celebrate with you. This is gonna be a party. We are going [00:01:00] to get down, virtually.

Haley Radke: Virtually. Okay.

Reshma McClintock: It's a thing now.

Haley Radke: Okay. So we are celebrating a little late, but that's okay. Better late than never. The Adoptees On podcast has reached half a million downloads. Which is crazy.

Reshma McClintock: Okay, let's do that thing where we pause for just a minute and take in half a million downloads, 500,000 downloads.

Haley Radke: Okay. So is it okay if I tell an embarrassing story about you?

Reshma McClintock: Please. I mean, why else have I come here?

Haley Radke: No. Okay, so you guys, Resh is like one of my best friends and I told her this milestone was coming and I was really excited and so she secretly sent me a gift and it literally happened to arrive on the day that I hit 500,000 downloads, which was bananas. And I was sitting at our breakfast table [00:02:00] when it happened. I was playing Uno with Isaiah right before we went to school, and I was just refreshing my phone so I could get the screenshot. Anyway, I sent the screenshot to Resh, and waited, later in the day, got a delivery at the door and I was like, oh my goodness, what's happening?

And she sent me balloons. But what came in the box was 50, five-zero, K

Reshma McClintock: One 5, one 0, and one K.

Haley Radke: And so it was so sweet and I blew them up, but I effed up the K, these are like the foil balloons that you see. You'll see it in the picture; I'm going to use it as my show art. So just look at the cover art in your podcast app, wherever you're listening. And you'll see the picture of me with these balloons. But I messed up the K 'cause you put these little straws in and you blow in and I just busted right through. So anyway, I went to Party City and I got the [00:03:00] X, the missing zero and the K.

And I wasn't gonna tell her 'cause I was embarrassed, I don't know. I didn't wanna embarrass you.

Reshma McClintock: You were embarrassed for me.

Haley Radke: I was embarrassed for you.

Reshma McClintock: Because you thought that I was an idiot. It's okay. It's fair.

Haley Radke: No. Okay. So then when I sent her the picture, it wasn't all blue. There was some silver.

Reshma McClintock: I was so proud of myself. Okay. Because I found the “500 K” in blue and I was like, it's one of her colors. This is amazing. It's exactly the color.

Haley Radke: Yep.

Reshma McClintock: And I've never seen them in blue before. I was planning on getting gold and then I found the blue. I was so happy. Now let me just tell you something really quick. I checked six to seven “d” times to make sure that I picked two zeroes. I checked it like a hundred times to make sure there were two zeroes. And so when you said that you only got one 5, one 0 and one K. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Actually, that's not what I said, but I'm not gonna say what I said.

Haley Radke: It was so funny because in the box, I was like [00:04:00] searching, it's a tiny little Amazon box. I was like, there's gotta be the other zero here. It's not here. But there was a slip that said we've only shipped part of your order.

Reshma McClintock: Yes. So this is the part of the story I've been waiting to get to the most.

Haley Radke: Oh, okay. Okay.

Reshma McClintock: Because, yes, the other zero was coming. It was proof that I did in fact check and make sure that I clicked two zeros for “500 K.”

Haley Radke: No, what's proof is that you're about to keep me so humble because at some point in time in the next few weeks, I'm just gonna get a zero delivered to me

Reshma McClintock: No. No, they canceled it.

Haley Radke: No

Reshma McClintock: I don't think the zero's coming. So that's the last part of the story, like a day later, two days later, I got an email that said we've refunded your $6.50 because the other zero wasn't gonna make it in time.

Haley Radke: I was waiting for my zero to just be like, listen, Haley, you hit a half a million, but you're still a zero.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah, seriously, that would've been a real boost. Too funny. But what did I tell you? Originally, I told you when I [00:05:00] found out that the last zero was still on its way. I said when you hit a million, I'll only have to send five zeros. You can hold onto that one. So anyway, as it turns out, when you hit a million in just a few short months, I'm sure, I'll have to get all six zeros. So that’s good. It's okay. I'm willing to spend the money.

Haley Radke: I appreciate that so much. Okay. Can I tell you, I wanna tell you a couple things. When I launched in July of 2016. So July 1 was my official launch date, but at the time, Apple Podcasts wouldn't give you a specific date that your show would go live. Now, standard practice, when you have a new podcast, you do a little intro and you put it up there, and then whenever it's up, then you're like, okay, good, now it's live.

Now I can promote it, put up a real episode, all that. I went through my screenshots the other night which is not a good idea if you wanna feel good about yourself, just look at all the things you've screenshot. [00:06:00] But I looked and I had a screenshot on July 4th. By then I had 300 downloads, and I remember showing that to Nick and being so excited and, oh my gosh, that was so crazy.

And then I hit 10,000 downloads in February, 2017. And I remember thinking, oh my goodness, this is such a huge milestone, like 10,000, picture 10,000 people, and here we are, it's 500,000, which is

Reshma McClintock: Did you ever think you'd get here?

Haley Radke: No.

Reshma McClintock: You didn't think so?

Haley Radke: No.

Reshma McClintock: So you would see the numbers going up occasionally as you would check, and you'd hit different milestones.

I'm just thinking about how many milestones you went through to get to 500,000. You think 10,000, then you think 15, and 17 even, everything's a big deal. And so I'm guessing you've watched yourself go in increments?

Haley Radke: Yeah, and I am in a lot of different groups with other [00:07:00] podcasters who are very indie, niche, similar to me. And when they hear about my numbers, they're often like, whoa, that's amazing. Because it's unusual. There are so many podcasts. There's just tons and tons of them, and it's unusual to have that many downloads.

The stats as far as I know, I listen to Libsyn, they're my podcast host, and they host about a quarter of all the podcasts that are available in Apple Podcasts, and they say that about 80% of shows get around 150 downloads an episode. So it takes a long time to add up to something like half a million for those kinds of numbers. So yeah. I didn't really expect it. And after a while, you're just producing the show, making sure you're making good content.

And like I said, I'll admit I used to check religiously [00:08:00] and in those first few days, just refresh, refresh, did I get one more? Did I get one more? And now I just go post the show. I don't even look often at the numbers.

Reshma McClintock: And the numbers are an affirmation. The numbers are not just numbers, they are people. And we know that the show has been wildly successful, apart from the numbers, just in transforming the lives of so many adopted people and opening the eyes of so many non-adopted people. And because of that you stop and think all of those numbers represent an individual person.

And then even how that webs out, right? Like how many people did they talk to about the show? How many people have they shared with, even if they just shared the information. And even if that person didn't listen, your reach is much broader than I think you can even fathom. And that is so exciting.

And so I know you go through phases where you look at the statistics and you become obsessed. And then you just do the job that you have been doing so beautifully for the last few years. This is so exciting. I cannot tell you, just to sound so [00:09:00] cheesy, how honored I am that I get to celebrate with you. As a personal friend, I'm so just in awe of you so frequently.

And also as someone in the adoptee movement, as someone who's an adopted person who stood up and said, I am not going to allow the world to speak for me any longer, and the way that you have done that so beautifully and so powerfully. I am so proud of you and I just can't believe I'm someone who gets to celebrate with you.

It's really worth noting. It is worth the pause. It's worth the minute to take the mismatched balloons and raise them in the air and say a cheer and just soak it all in. I hope you're really able to soak in what you've accomplished so far, and that this will just continue to catapult you forward.

And I can't really even fathom where you would go. At one point you could never have imagined being where you are now. And if you sit with that for a minute. Oh my goodness, imagine where you'll go next. It's really exciting.

Haley Radke: Goosebumps, hearing you talking about [00:10:00] that. I was just asking Nick the other day 'cause he's had a transition at work and his boss resigned and there's a new boss and I was like, oh, how do you picture yourself in five years? Are you gonna do the same job?

And then he asked me the same and I was like, oh my goodness. Will I still be podcasting in five years? I don't know.

Reshma McClintock: Right. Yeah. It's hard to know.

Haley Radke: It is hard to know. Another cool thing that I've shared before when I've hit these milestones. Before or on birthday moments, I might post on Instagram what the current stats are just 'cause I think it's fun and I think people are interested to see.

But the show's been downloaded in over 144 countries.

Reshma McClintock: Wow.

Haley Radke: Which is almost but not quite all of them; it's three quarters of them.

Reshma McClintock: Yes. Worth noting. Wow.

Haley Radke: Yeah. And so I think there's something of real significance there. Adoptees are scattered through the entire world. Now, not necessarily all English speaking of course.

That's North American-centric thinking in my head. But [00:11:00] yeah, I think that's really neat. And the other cool thing I wanted to tell you is the top 10 countries that regularly listen.

Reshma McClintock: Yes, I wanna hear this.

Haley Radke: Okay. So of course number one is the United States. 70% of my listeners are in the US.

Reshma McClintock: The US has to be first at everything. I'm just kidding.

Haley Radke: And then I go to my country. Did you know I'm Canadian? Some of my listeners don't know that I'm in Canada.

Reshma McClintock: This is international here.

Haley Radke: So 6% of my listeners are Canadian. And then we go to the UK, Australia, they're both at 4% each.

And then Ireland, Germany, New Zealand, France, Sweden, and South Africa.

Reshma McClintock: Oh wow. That is very cool.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Reshma McClintock: That is so significant.

Haley Radke: I love that. And I've interviewed adoptees, I think, in eight different countries and maybe adoptees adopted from probably only a dozen countries. When I started out podcasting, there was only a couple of other adoptee [00:12:00] podcasts and one of them strictly focused on international adoptees, and the host was an international adoptee himself.

And so I really was like, oh, that's your space. And that show has paused. We call it “pod-fading” as podcasters, pod fading. That doesn't mean he won't come back, but yeah, so I've had lots of requests for international adoptees to share, and so I started doing that a little further on in my podcasting journey. But yeah, it's really incredible the amount of lives touched by adoption all over the world.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah. And I have to tell you, as a transracial international adoptee, as a person of color, I appreciate that you at one point had paused to say, is that my space? Is someone else filling that space? Obviously. However I will say, because I've had the opportunity to be on your show a few times and listen to multiple transracial international adoptees, how powerful it is. And one of the things that [00:13:00] you do so well, which I know you are frequently complimented on, although you wouldn't share that yourself, is that you are so good at listening and elevating voices and so you are not like, let me provide you with this platform.

You're like, I'm here to listen. I want you to be able to share because I want to learn, because I want to know. And I just appreciate the way that you do that. It's a tricky thing, especially in today's cultural and political climate, but I think it's something you do really well. And it's something you've learned about as you've grown and as you've listened.

it's just something that I really appreciate. I know you so well, so I know you would never be like, I provide a platform for people of all colors and races. It's not about that. It's about the education. It's about the opportunity for all of us to learn from people of different cultures and backgrounds and different experiences. And you so well provide that platform without talking over your guests and just allowing them to share and asking all [00:14:00] the right questions so that we can all learn together.

It's a very unique thing that you're able to do so well.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I appreciate that so much. And I do try very hard to come into each interview just in a space of learning. A posture of learning. We've heard enough podcasts where the host tries to mansplain and all of those kinds of things. And this is not the place for that, for sure.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I heard that you might have a couple questions for me, and that makes me feel nervous, but okay.

Reshma McClintock: Okay. Might need a drum roll or something. I should have planned a sound effect, drum roll, something, because this is the moment that I've been waiting for to ask you questions. On air. We've gone back and forth a little bit, a few times, but you told me that I could basically ask you whatever I want, and I appreciate that. It's one of the things I love about you.

Haley Radke: I don't think I said that, but okay.

Reshma McClintock: Listen, we're here. Let's just go with it.

Haley Radke: Okay. [00:15:00]

Reshma McClintock: Yeah, you didn't say that. That's not true. You didn't say, I can ask you whatever I want.

Haley Radke: I feel like you're just trying to get me to acknowledge permission ahead of some invasive questions.

Reshma McClintock: Oh no. I'm not looking for permission. I've learned a long time ago, it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission so I’m kidding.

I wanna know, there are a lot of people in the adoption community who listen to your show, obviously. A lot of people use the word “transformative” when they talk about this show, that this show has been transformative in their life, that this show has made them feel less alone.

Anne Heffron, our good friend, has frequently said that in many ways this show saved her life and had a great influence, I should say, in saving her life. And a lot of us listen to you and think, wow. I listen to you and your guests, rather, and think, wow, where else could I have learned this information?

This is truly transformative. It's the first time [00:16:00] I've heard this specific thing stated in this specific way, and I have a better understanding of adoptees and their lives and their experiences, and it has been so incredibly transformative for so many people. I want to know for you personally, in what ways has it been transformative for you? Haley Radke adopted person, not Haley Radke the professional podcaster and interviewer? I wanna know what has that been like for you personally? In what ways has it transformed you?

Haley Radke: Okay. That feels like a, just a huge question and it really is true that it has transformed me and I could answer the professional one, you said not to, but I feel like I've gained a lot of confidence and, you wouldn't know it now, but I feel like I'm a lot more of a polished speaker. Editing is magical. But personally I feel like after every [00:17:00] episode where I record with someone, I think here's 10 more things I need to talk about with my psychologist. It's really shaped me to look at my own issues deeper.

Things that I had covered up, was coping with, things that I had hidden. And the more my guests share about the courageous steps they've taken to find healing from a variety of different ways that they feel adoption has impacted them, the more I feel brave enough to be like, maybe this is the next thing I can talk about with my psychologist.

Truly, personally, I've grown a ton from listening to other people and it also has really humbled me. It has really truly [00:18:00] humbled me. The honor it is to listen to people's stories. Sometimes they haven't shared them before, and I try and be really careful with that.

I try and make sure that guests are ready to talk about things publicly. We've seen so many people overshare things and can't reel it back in once it's out there. We've seen so many young adoptees especially, you have personal experience with this. I think I'm not oversharing for you, but you had become a poster child for adoption in youth and paraded around saying adoption's so amazing. Look, it saved my life.

Reshma McClintock: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: So there's the cost of that. So I try and really walk a fine line of not asking someone to overshare in that way. But the trust they put in me, sharing things sometimes for the first time, is so humbling. How am I, a stranger, able to hear these really deep things that are coming from the bottom of your heart, and then you're trusting not just me, but my [00:19:00] listeners.

So yeah, I've grown a lot and learned a lot. And trust me, there is no one who's been more impacted by the show than me.

Reshma McClintock: Wow. That is a really fascinating statement. Interesting. That you've been the most impacted. I guess what I really appreciate about what you had to say is that I think that in adoption land, and we all do this, and you and I have talked about this before.

There are these pedestals that we put different adoptees on. There's a rotation, right? After you've been in adoption land for a long time, you see these are the new faces. Oh, this is the new person. And that's not necessarily a negative thing. There's new people coming up and sharing all the time, and I love that.

And I talk about that frequently, about the seasons, right? We're in a different season. I'm in a season of. Productivity? No, not me, but this is just an example. Surely not me, but sometimes I have before, had seasons of incredible productivity. And really, this is my moment. This is [00:20:00] my season, this is my time.

I'm gonna be one of the people out there sharing and doing a lot of work and putting a lot of effort out there, which I appreciate and love that we can come and go because for me it's about taking breaks and for my own family's sake or for whatever reason, right? Different seasons for different reasons.

However, what I appreciate is that you are not putting yourself on a pedestal. I think that's a really important thing for us as adopted people to note, and you just demonstrated that so well, because I think a lot of people will look at you and be like, oh, Haley, I wanna get to where she is, not professionally. Well, a lot of people think that too, but I just mean thinking, oh, she clearly has it together. She's clearly got things sorted out and figured out emotionally as it pertains to adoption and all of that because of where she is.

And the reality is we shouldn't be trying to attain to get to where anybody else is. It's all about our own personal journey, and I just appreciate that you're willing to say, of course, I haven't arrived. And there [00:21:00] is no arrival destination, but that you're constantly working on yourself and discovering new ways that you can learn and grow and new things that you need to address.

I find that with your show, of course, and so many other people do, but to know that the host is I'm here to learn. I am here to grow personally in my own journey with my psychologist, with my therapist, with my family as it pertains to reunion or whatever the different specific areas are. I think that's a really bold statement that you made that one of the ways that it's transformed you is that you walk away with 10 things or so to really think about and work on.

I think that's a really powerful statement. And again, not to say that you aren't someone that people should look up to, I absolutely believe you are, but that is one of the reasons, not because you've arrived, but because you're working through all of the things that you need to work through on this journey.

Haley Radke: I think you're talking me up too much.

Reshma McClintock: Truly I'm not meaning to, that's not my intention. I'm not trying to flatter you.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah. So I [00:22:00] know you 'cause I know where you're going. I know I just think that it's a powerful thing that you can say that because I think a lot of people in your position with your kind of success wouldn't necessarily say, I am still learning every day and in the show that you happen to provide and host and curate that it is even benefiting you in your journey on your path. That it's not like I've arrived so I'm going to host this podcast so other people can get to where I am. That's not what it's about. It's about collectively growing in our own paths and our own journey.

So I think that's really wonderful.

Haley Radke: One thing I have felt fearful of with the show is we talk about a lot of hard things and a lot of adopted people are always being accused of being so negative if we're critical at all about adoption and I don't want us to stay stuck in the bad experiences.

And it's so important to me that we do seek healing and [00:23:00] growing ourselves. And if I'm not gonna model that, I'm a complete hypocrite. So I really do think it's important for us to be working on that. And I hope that with the ways I have, the Healing Series and I have therapists on and some of the questions of the guests, like sometimes I ask guests like, what have you been learning in therapy and is there a question I can ask you that you can teach us from, because I want them to give an opportunity to be like this is where I came from, but here's all the things I've worked on, because they're examples for us as well. It's so important to not stay stuck and that's just a human thing.

Reshma McClintock: That really is, I love that. I think you've had so many, I couldn't even start to list, good therapists on who talk about that a lot, about them being on their own journey also. They want to help people; obviously, meet them where they are, but that they're also doing their own personal work.

And I think just in general, across the board, outside adoption, we all [00:24:00] have to be doing the work on ourselves. And that's where we flourish really. So the problem is just like what you said, the dangerous territory is when we get stuck. And there's no growth.

So I just appreciate looking at someone like you where, I think, professionally you've had this success. It's just remarkable what you've done, that you've created out of nothing without any experience. The fruit that you have produced is just really extraordinary.

And to hear from someone, frankly, at your level, that you are still learning and listening and all the benefits that you personally find, I love that. So thank you for answering that question. I know that was a lot.

Haley Radke: Let's just talk about me some more. That's just my favorite.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah, I know you, this is your favorite thing.

Okay, let's see. I also wanted to know what is your favorite part of the show? What is your favorite aspect of doing the show? And I've heard you say to [00:25:00] me many times, and I love hearing it from you every time that people will share their stories with you is so powerful.

What do you love about Adoptees On? If you can, can you pull yourself out of it at all? Are you able to separate yourself at all from Adoptees On and say this is what I love about Adoptees On?

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. That's tricky. I was a podcast listener for a decade before I started this show, so when podcasts were starting. So I have listened to podcasts for years and years, and I structured the show in a way that was my favorite format. And I think some of my favorite moments of the podcast itself, each episode, are the last couple questions that come right before recommended resources.

So it's always the questions that are wrapping up the interview. This is their last chance to share with the listeners some powerful thing that has impacted them. [00:26:00] I feel like those are the moments that are like the penultimate, I don't know. Because we wrap up with recommended resources and I'm usually sharing something, if it's an author I'm usually sharing about their book, and they're gonna promo something else and that's great too. But it's just like those moments right before, and I feel too like guests often relax by recommended resources. So they're comfortable at that point and share some pretty amazing things. So I feel those last couple questions are my favorite usually.

Reshma McClintock: Oh, I love that. That's good to know. Now the pressure's on for future interviewees. No, I'm kidding.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Watch out. Question seven. That's the one.

Reshma McClintock: My last question for you is this: If I am new to Adoptees On, and I were jumping in and it's, whoa, she's had 500,000 downloads, a half a million downloads, how many episodes could she have? How could I ever jump in and get caught up [00:27:00] and listen and know what this show is all about? First, I'd like to know how many episodes do you have, quickly,

Haley Radke: This is gonna be Episode 155.

Reshma McClintock: Love it. 155 episodes. So if I'm someone coming in and there are 155 episodes. I'm not asking you to pick your favorite child or anything here, but could you pick a reasonable number of episodes that you would recommend to give someone a crash course in Adoptees On and, frankly, the host, who you are, because that's a huge part of the show, but are there a certain number of episodes that you could get to give someone a crash course on Adoptees On?

Is that something you could include in the show notes for this episode?

Haley Radke: Okay. This was a big ask and thank goodness Reshma did warn me about this question. I'm gonna separate it into two, okay? So if you wanna get to know me a little better and you haven't binged all the episodes, which some of you say you do, just a few days’ time, which is too many, that is too many hours of me talking. Don't do that.

If you [00:28:00] wanna get to know me a little bit better. I actually share my story in Episode 13 and it's a long episode. We start off with a couple different things, so if you just wanna hear my story, I start around the 28-minute mark of that episode and that is about my failed reunion with my first mother.

And then unusually the other two episodes where you could learn a little bit more about me. These are some of the only episodes I have that are with a guest who's not adopted, but they are people that are in my life. And so I have an episode, Episode 58, with my husband, and he talks about what it's like being married to an adoptee. So if you want more dirt on me, hit that one up. Nick shares all the dirt. There's not that much dirt.

And then the third one is an episode that I feel is quite controversial. I have had feedback on both [00:29:00] sides of that fence. It's very polarizing. So it's Episode 86 and I actually interview my biological father's wife, and I call her mom, because I call her mom, And she shares what Reunion was like for her. And it's a challenging listen, but it gives you a good perspective of how our reunion went.

So those are the pieces where if you wanna get to know me more, and if you have people in your life or around you, you probably do, and the impact that your presence might have in their life, you might see some of that in these.

Reshma McClintock: I just wrote 'em down too, because I've listened to all of those, but I'm going back to re-listen.

Haley Radke: Okay, great. Now the other ones, that's so hard, it's really tough to pick. What I did is I wrote down the top three downloaded shows.

And the first one is an episode I did with Carrie. It is Episode 1 [00:30:00] with Carrie Cahill Mulligan. She is my co-host most of the time on Adoptees Off Script, which is the Patreon-only show that I also do weekly. Did you know I have two podcasts every week? Oh my gosh, Resh. It's a lot.

Reshma McClintock: It's a lot.

Haley Radke: It's a lot.

Reshma McClintock: It's amazing.

Haley Radke: So if you need to hear me talk more, I talk a lot more on that one than I do on my own podcast here. But Carrie shares about her reunion and we'd really go back and forth. This was much more of a back-and-forth conversation. What you're used to now is really not hearing too much of me. My editor. I don't know. She might roll her eyes at this. Is this too many secrets? Sometimes I get her to cut out my questions so that the guests can seem like they just keep talking and they have another thought and they go onto a different topic because I don't want it to be about me.

Reshma McClintock: Wow. I love that.

Haley Radke: So this is a little bit rougher, and the sound, everything. We're a lot more professional around here.

Reshma McClintock: [00:31:00] Episode 1 and you're on 155. We can have grace for that.

Haley Radke: There you go. There’s some grace. The second most downloaded one. I wonder if you're gonna be surprised by this? It's Episode 128 and it's with Blake Gibbons.

Reshma McClintock: Oh, I love Blake Gibbons.

Haley Radke: So if you want to hear about adoptee advocacy and the challenges in that space, and if you wanna be thinking about ethics and all the complicated things that come with adoption and advocacy, this is the one to listen to.

Reshma McClintock: Blake makes my head hurt in the best way.

Haley Radke: Yes,

Reshma McClintock: Because they are so smart and wise and kind and energetic and all the good things.

Haley Radke: That's right.

Reshma McClintock: So yay, Blake.

Haley Radke: That's right, I agree. The third most-downloaded episode is an episode with a therapist we've had on the show multiple times, Pam Cordano. But this [00:32:00] episode is Episode 85 and she asked her two adult daughters to come and share what it's like to have an adoptee as their mother.

Reshma McClintock: Okay, how have I not heard that one? Okay, I gotta write that down too. 85.

Haley Radke: So if you wanna talk about putting yourself out there and putting yourself on possible blast and sharing our dirty laundry. That is an episode. It is amazing. It's one of the most powerful, and that's why I think it's one of the most downloaded. Who gets to listen in on that kind of conversation? Who?

Reshma McClintock: Wow. Yeah, I haven't listened to that episode and I'm going to do that today. That is wonderful.

Haley Radke: So there are a bunch of different series I used to do: the Reunion Series, the Adoptees in Addiction, Adoptees in Relationships, Healing through Creativity. And the Healing Series continues with all the therapist interviews.

So all of those are linked on adopteeson.com. I really can't pick a favorite, [00:33:00] but I do think if what you're struggling with the most right now is relationships, and that's number one thing that people will say to me, then listen to that series and I think you'll get a lot from it.

Reshma McClintock: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing those. I think that it can be really overwhelming to come into a show with 500,000 downloads and 155 episodes and think, whoa, where do I even start? So I think that's a really wonderful tool to have as a jumping off point. What I'm certain of is that as soon as anybody listens to any one, two, or all of those episodes, they're going to wanna go back to the beginning and have a Haley binge.

So yeah, I imagine that'll just be all that people need to get sucked in because there's just so much goodness. When you really think about what those 500,000 downloads entail, like the knowledge and wisdom and emotions and experiences shared in each of those episodes and downloads and how they must impact [00:34:00] people, it's really like the mind-blown emoji. It's a lot to take in.

Haley Radke: Totally. Thank you for grilling me. I mean thank you for interviewing me. I know she could have asked a lot for the dirt, but there isn't any

Reshma McClintock: I'm selfish. I like to keep those for myself.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's, yeah, it's private.

Reshma McClintock: That's for Vox.

Haley Radke: It's for Voxer. Blackmail later. Down the road. Yeah. Alright,

Reshma McClintock: Yours can be that someday you'll interview my daughter.

Haley Radke: Only when she's an adult. And she can consent to that.

Reshma McClintock: No, I'm not as brave as Pam Cordano.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Yeah. She's pretty amazing.

Okay, we're gonna wrap up with recommended resources, but first I'm gonna tell you the five things I've learned after 500,000 downloads. So number five, we're gonna count up to the top. Number five is that internet friendships are really real [00:35:00] and the connections that I've made online are so true and can be deeper sometimes than some of my in-person friendships.

The friends I've made on the Patreon Facebook group, dms on Instagram, through emails people have sent me, it's really special and I don't have words for it. And including my friendship with you, it's pretty amazing the level adoptees can go to with understanding each other right away. And I think sometimes internet friendships get a bad rap, like is that really like a thing? And it is. It's a real thing.

Reshma McClintock: Agreed.

Haley Radke: Number four, something I mentioned a little bit earlier, the experience of being adopted and being human. This is gonna sound like obvious, but it's absolutely tangled together, enmeshed. I have multiple listeners, you might not know this, that don't have a connection whatsoever to adoption, and they [00:36:00] learn so much from our stories.

And I think that the pain, the trauma that we've been through from adoption leads a lot of us to seek healing like we talked about earlier. And it's actually really inspiring for others, even outside of our community to hear. And I'm really proud of that for us as adoptees speaking up that we can impact people even outside of adoptee land.

Okay. Number three is that adopted people are very generous. I right now actually have over 150 monthly supporters, and they keep the lights on here, they keep my editor paid and they keep the podcast free and available to anyone who needs support. And I see some of those same people giving to other adoptee podcasters.

Adoptee Kickstarters, other adoptee Patreons that are doing art, writing, you name [00:37:00] it, they are willing to put their money where they think the resources need to be made, and they are helping impact their community by doing that. And so I thank you for your generosity and your willingness to do that. And I see it and it's amazing.

Reshma McClintock: Oh, I love that.

Haley Radke: Okay. Number two, adoptive people can be extremely passionate about our fights for original birth certificates, for citizenship, for family preservation. Oh, my word. Have we seen the people doing the work in these areas? Wow. I don't even, I don't even know how much more I can speak on that point.

I think it's evident to me, it should be evident to you if you've listened to any number of these podcasts. The passion, the drive, the fire in some of these advocates. It is awe-inspiring. I don't know how they do it. It's [00:38:00] amazing. And like we are cheering you on. Okay.

Reshma McClintock: Yeah. That's amazing. And so true.

Haley Radke: Okay, number one, I think this will be my second time crying, so I'm okay. I mean on this episode. Okay, this is not new information, but it's the most important.

Adoptee voices matter. And when you create a place of safety and are willing to be vulnerable with your own story, there's something really magical that happens between us, myself, my guests, with you listening. You get to listen and feel like you're sitting with us. And truly you are because my office is surrounded with your words, the books you've written and sent to me.

I'm looking at a wall filled with cards and [00:39:00] letters. I have art you've made for me, embroidery, paintings. My purse, two of my purses are made by adoptees. I have a mug fired in a kiln that is by an adoptee. All of these things surround my office and surround me while I'm talking to guests. And it's a constant reminder that your voices matter no matter how they're expressed.

If I hear your voice and we're sharing them audibly with listeners, or I'm seeing your words and your art, your creations, the show has turned into my love letter back to you, to adopted people, and I just wanna remind you that you're not alone. Your voice matters and it matters so much to me. Okay. That's it.

Reshma McClintock: Oh my gosh. I [00:40:00] am wrecked. Haley, I just want to say on behalf of adopted people who love and appreciate you, who listen to your show, who've seen your work, who have read the things you've written, who've been impacted by anything that you have done for our community, thank you. I know that is not what you're looking for here.

We didn't discuss this, but I just want you to know how thankful we collectively as a community are for you and for your work and for how deeply you love our community and how committed you are to it. So thank you for elevating adoptee voices. I just couldn't thank you enough.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Okay. I'm supposed to be the one that's ready with the transition voice. Let's do a recommended resource. No, seriously. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I know that Adoptees On is appreciated and loved. And, like I said, I have letters from people. Did you know you could send me letters? I have a PO Box on my website and I love getting [00:41:00] cards and it's really fun. My boys love it. Where's the stamp from?

Reshma McClintock: I love that. That's great. I wanna add one thing really quickly. Sorry, I'm going off. I'm going rogue. Okay. Brace yourselves.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Reshma McClintock: I just also wanna say your show has also been the catalyst for so many other adoptee organizations or websites or podcasts. I know, because I get to talk to you personally, how many adoptees have consulted you before starting their own podcasts. You're very quiet and very humble about that, but you're also very gracious with sharing the space and acknowledging that there is room for all of us to do our own individual work, even if it's along the same lines of something that someone is already doing.

That there is space for all of us. So I think that's a really powerful, important thing that a part of that success, a part of those 500,000 downloads is that you have helped other people build their own dream of elevating adoptee voices in their own way, on their own podcast, on their own website, in their own book, whatever it looks like for them [00:42:00]. That Adoptees On has been a catalyst for that. And that is really important to acknowledge, especially as you go into recommended resources.

See, look, there's a good transition.

Because that's one of the other really powerful things you do is elevating adoptees, not just who you're interviewing but other resources in our community.

Haley Radke: Thank you for acknowledging that. I'm laughing because Reshma knows good and well that I do not like compliments or any of those things. It makes me very uncomfortable. I'm fine. Okay.

Reshma McClintock: That’s like the 16th time you've said, I’m fine.

Haley Radke: I'm fine, I’m fine. There's a terrible acronym for that and that is what I am. You can look it up on Google. I was gonna say Urban Dictionary, but don't do that. If it's really gross and terrible, I don't mean that. I just mean you're not really fine, but you're fine. Okay. You know what, since you brought that up, I know there are over [00:43:00] 35 other adoptee-run podcasts. Did you know that number was that high?

Reshma McClintock: I did not, no clue.

Haley Radke: Okay. Those are the ones that I have been watching and seeing grow over the years. The first one that I know of was started in 2016, and that's The Rambler. I actually had Mike McDonald on the show a long ways back but he was the first one that I know of.

And shortly after that, April Dinwoodie started Born in June, Raised in April in February of 2016. And I started July 1, 2016. So 2016 was a big year for adoptee podcasts and I recommended many of them on the show before. And if you're looking for more adoptee podcasts, just search 'em out. They are out there for sure.

The second thing that I should shout out is Lesli Johnson. She is an adoptee [00:44:00] therapist who has been on the podcast a number of times. She was my very first Healing Series therapist that I had as a guest, and I don't even know how many times she's been on. It's close to 10, I would guess.

Reshma McClintock: I love Lesli.

Haley Radke: Yeah, she is amazing. I've met her in person before. She's just as delightful in person. And, oh my word. The feedback I get from people that have been her clients, it's like topnotch. She has just launched a course just for us, for adult adoptees, it's pretty incredible. I trust her. I know her expertise.

She's worked in this field for a number of years, and she is up to date on all the things trauma related. So I haven't personally been through this course, but what I'm saying to you is I can endorse it because I know Lesli and I endorse her. The course is called “Come Out of the Fog and Into Your Life: Rewire your Brain for Resilience and Joy.” A six-week course for adult adoptees. [00:45:00]

Now, the time we're recording this, it's gonna start right away next week, but if you go to adoption.com, you can find out how to register and if you have already missed this round, I'm sure she's gonna be doing it again and I'm sure there's details there of how you can sign up and be notified the next time she's running it.

So please go and do that if that sounds like something that would be important for you. We talk all through this episode about how important healing is, and if you've connected with Lesli in some of the Healing Series episodes that she's done, then you probably know that this might be a good fit for you.

So if you sign up, let me know. I wanna hear about it. I wanna hear if it's something I should sign up for in my spare time. Honestly, if it wasn't pandemic times and I wasn't concerned my kids would be home again with me any day now, I would be signing up this round. But I'm gonna wait. I think that's my recommended resource.

Reshma McClintock: I love it. I love Lesli. I'm on board.

Haley Radke: Alright Reshma, we've talked a lot about me today, but you are [00:46:00] the creator of “Dear Adoption,” a producer and the subject of the documentary Calcutta is My Mother. And I know you've been on the podcast before sharing about those things, but where can people connect with you online to read Dear Adoption and to see more of your work and to find out more about your documentary?

Reshma McClintock: Dear Adoption is dearadoption.com and we've been on a bit of a hiatus for some time but there will be more at Dear Adoption. I think that Dear Adoption will forever be a thing, but there are going to be some breaks here and there, which I think is also really healthy. Dearadoption.com is a great place to go to listen to a wide variety of adoptee voices. Haley being one of them, actually. You've been on twice. We have, I think, two on there from you.

Haley Radke: I think I do.

Reshma McClintock: I love them both. And the film. Actually, we had to postpone our screening in Minneapolis last spring. But that screening is not canceled. Just postponed. Probably looking at 2021 at this point.

And then hopefully soon after, the film will [00:47:00] be released for streaming available worldwide. So we will keep you posted on that. But thank you so much for bringing up my couple of little projects. You're always so kind and generous with your promotion and I appreciate it.

Haley Radke: I'm eye rolling 'cause you said “little” projects. Okay. We know that Reshma is a force in adoptee land.

Reshma McClintock: Thank you.

Haley Radke: So, all right. Thank you so much for celebrating with me today. I have my balloons up here still, my mismatched balloons and I'm really sad to hear that zero is not coming. I was really hoping for that, but I'm using “zero day” just to keep me humble.

Reshma McClintock: I can still send you one.

Haley Radke: It's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much, Reshma.

Reshma McClintock: Thank you. Love you.

Haley Radke: Love you back.

On re-listening to our conversation, I feel like I did not express to you how shocked I felt that the show reached half a million [00:48:00] downloads and that each download represents a human person who most likely is an adopted person, some of whom have never heard from other adult adoptees on the impact adoption has had on them.

And so they found the show, and that download counts as a person who was able to hear someone else who had an experience just like they did, and they felt that they were not alone. So thank you. Thank you for being one of those people who downloaded this episode and thought adoptee voices were so valuable that you really wanted to listen and hear part of the adoptee experience. So thank you for being a part of that.

I also want to express my great thanks again to my monthly supporters. Without you guys, I don't know that this show would've reached this [00:49:00] milestone and continued for four years as it has. So thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. If you want to join my supporters and if you think Adoptees On is impactful, that is an amazing way to support the show. Adopteeson.com/partner has details of that.

And like I was telling Reshma, there's the Adoptees Off Script podcast that's also weekly that I do for my Patreon supporters. And there's other things in there. But honestly, the best way and the free way to support the show is to tell just one other adopted person about the podcast.

And Reshma was saying, oh my gosh, there's so many episodes, 155. Where would you get started? If you are sharing the show with someone, it's amazing if you show them how to download a podcast if they've never done it before. Pick your favorite app. I love Overcast. There's lots of free ones if you're on an Android.

Download your favorite episode of the [00:50:00] show, something that has really been meaningful to you, or if there's one that relates to your friend's experience that they might find value in. Pick one of those. I really appreciate it and I do think once someone has listened then they’ll scroll through and find what they're interested in. So I think that's really helpful. Sharing the show with one person is amazing.

Another thing you can do is share the podcast on social media. Again, share an episode that you love and that you think your friends would love. And I'm so grateful 'cause so many of you do that regularly and I really appreciate that.

So thank you so much for spreading adoptee voices all around the world to over 144 countries 500,000 times. It's more than that by now. I just checked as I was editing. I just checked and I'm at 507,000 or something already, so there's already another 7,000. It's just [00:51:00] snowballing, which is wild. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening. I love you. Your voice is valuable. Your story matters, and I wish I could hear each one of you share your story on the show.

If you have listened this long, if you've made it to the end, I want you to know that I have opened up applications to be on the podcast, and I'm already receiving more than I could possibly interview, but I know that you've listened all the way to the end of the show, that you are excited about Adoptees On, and maybe you wanna share your story.

So if you go to adopteeson.com and you go to the connect page, there's instructions there on how to apply to be on the show. It includes recording yourself. A little message about what you would wanna say to adoptees. Share a little bit of your story with me. Why you think you'd be a good [00:52:00] fit for the podcast, and who knows? Maybe you'll be on the next episode of the podcast.

Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

151 JS Lee

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/151


Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Episode 151, Jessica Sun Lee. I'm your host, Haley Radke. It's a great honor to bring to you the creative powerhouse, Jessica Sun Lee. We talk about racism, dealing with multiple complex traumas, and the challenge of how we attribute our resilience as adopted people.

I wanna give you a content warning for this episode. We briefly mention childhood sexual abuse, gun violence, sexual assault, and domestic violence.

Jessica has a brand-new book out that we talk about today, so make sure you listen to the end of the show to find out how you can win a signed copy. We wrap up with [00:01:00] some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Jessica Sun Lee. Welcome, Jessica.

Jessica Sun Lee: Hi Haley. Thanks for having me.

Haley Radke: I can't believe it's taken us this long to get together. I can't wait for a conversation I've been eagerly anticipating for a long time. I'll be candid about that. I would love it if you would start the way we always do. Would you share your story with us?

Jessica Sun Lee: My story has changed over the years, and I'll probably never know the truth. There was so much corruption in Korean adoptions, but it went from being delivered to a police station in Seoul at a day old to being found outside the hospital grounds in Daegu. When I was visiting in Korea in 2006 was when I learned this. I found paperwork [00:02:00] that suggested I was around two weeks old.

From there, I ended up at the White Lily Orphanage in Daegu. I may have lived with a foster mother for up to four months before being adopted at six months old. Then I was adopted to a white family in the Boston suburbs with two older girls, biological to my adopters. And after that my adoptive parents had four more biological kids after my adoption.

So I was the only Asian and right in the middle. We lived in a town that was over 95% white, with summers and weekends in Maine at a house where in that town I was in most cases the first Asian or even person of color people to encounter. So that was interesting.

And we thankfully always had a lot of animals. So I bonded with them more even than my adoptive siblings. I always saw us as more the same, and I know that's really offensive for some adoptees, but for [00:03:00] me that was my experience, just being the soul of my kind. In such a large white family.

Haley Radke: What kind of animals did you have? Do you have a special pet that you remember?

Jessica Sun Lee: Oh, I remember and loved them all. We had two dogs, four cats. There was a hamster, a lizard but really it was the cats and the dogs I really bonded with the most. They brought me a lot of comfort.

Haley Radke: Do you still have pets in your life?

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah, I have two cats right now. They're siblings; I wasn't about to separate them, adoptee issues. They really come out all the time and yeah, they're wonderful. They're gonna be turning 12 in two weeks.

Haley Radke: I love that. I haven't heard someone mention that to me before, about how important animals were to them as they were growing up. So thank you for saying that. I'm sure some people using the same language of adoption with kids and animals, like [00:04:00] that is super problematic, but I'm sure there's others that will relate to that, just that feeling of, oh, these are my people.

Jessica Sun Lee: No, they were my people.

Haley Radke: They were your people. Wow. Okay. Sorry. Please continue. I'm so curious about what happened for you after that.

Jessica Sun Lee: Oh a lot. Yeah. That's really so much that I'm not sure exactly where to go first, but that was my childhood. That experience of two houses, two very white towns where I was really very much visibly an outsider.

Haley Radke: Okay. So I'm curious because now I know that you are an artist in a variety of capacities. So you're an author of adult fiction, children's books as well. You are an essayist. You [00:05:00] blog regularly.

And you are an artist in various mediums as well. And musical, a singer. I don't know if you play instruments. I don't know. My jaw just kept getting wider and wider open as I saw all the things that you do. So did you feel creative when you were younger? What kind of led you to dabbling in all these sorts of things?

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah, the way I use my creative outlets varies by medium and has varied throughout my life. At first it was so therapeutic as a child. There were so many inarticulable emotions and experiences that more visual or musical art allowed me to work through. And I was always writing stories and all of those things, just painting, music, writing.

They were like my best friends. The people I could trust, here we go with people again. But yeah, [00:06:00] it's what I had, so I would just spend hours working on things, making things. And I mentioned I had a really large adoptive family, so if you can imagine the noise that was going on in that house.

I had to escape, and escaping into these arts I would always find a closet, whichever room was my bedroom. It moved around. But the running joke in my household was that I was in the closet, which they didn't even know that I was a queer child then, and neither did I really fully understand.

But that was the joke, was that I was in the closet and I was always working on something. To carve out a little bit of peace for myself, but yeah, so we didn't have privacy. Not only were there a lot of people, but it was a big house and we had surveillance cameras and intercom systems in our bedrooms that all fed into little TVs [00:07:00] in the kitchen. Which, yes, I see your face.

It's so nice to get that validation now and how wrong and how strange that is. Because it was my normal, it was my normal growing up. So anyways, my art and music and writing, they were fine. My adopters really loved when it made them proud. Say, I wrote something that furthered their narrative and it maybe won an award at school.

So for a while there was a transition from these things being therapeutic and for me into parental approval. So that's so addictive as a sole adoptee of color in this family, but it was also a betrayal of self. So it took a really long time then after that to reclaim my voice and my creativity for me. And because I was always spied on, my notebooks, diaries, etc., were read out loud and [00:08:00] for things that they didn't approve of, I started to use fiction as a way to tell the truth without getting in trouble.

And I think that's where my love for fiction began, just needing for me to find a way to own my feelings. Where it wasn't going to get me punished. Yeah. That was the kind of household I grew up in.

Haley Radke: I'm so sorry. I got really emotional. Just you sharing relying on fiction as a way to tell the truth without getting in trouble and the lack of privacy and having your journals read out loud and shamed. I am just like, that just makes me feel sick to my stomach.

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah.

Haley Radke: There's so many things that little people were trying to work through, like our identity especially as adoptees, and I'm just thinking of you as a younger person and how that [00:09:00] would've impacted you.

I love how you said you worked to reclaim it for yourself. Now, can you talk about that? What did that look like and when were you able to take that back?

Jessica Sun Lee: I'd love to say that it started in my teens and that was wonderfully empowering, but it took a lot longer than that for the fiction. Yeah, that was a way to work through therapy. It was my therapy. But I didn't really fully reclaim my voice for decades. It took a long time.

I think probably when I wrote my only memoir, my first book. That was when I really was able because that was nonfiction, first off. But it was a way for me to say I'm not going to be afraid. I'm going to speak my truth here. And whatever happens, happens. And it did. It did end up ultimately separating me from my adopters, and [00:10:00] it's what had to happen. It was a way for me to find freedom.

Haley Radke: I'm not sure if you're familiar with this, but a couple years ago I did a whole series on healing through creativity. And do you resonate with that at all?

Jessica Sun Lee: Yes. Yeah. I feel like that why I've gravitated to all of these different art forms is really for healing purposes. It's allowed me to have a voice when the alternative was to have none, was to be silenced. It allowed me to try to shape things, try to make sense of things, because I wasn't able to speak clearly. I wasn't able to say what I was really feeling inside. And I do think it is such an empowering thing to allow yourself to explore, to explore whatever's going on in there. And that was my way. [00:11:00] It's still my way.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I appreciate that. What I really have appreciated is all of your posts and writing lately, especially on criticizing in various ways all these issues, adoption, racism, classism, and I know you've seen the absurdest comparison of adoption as slavery because you wrote a blog post about that on your website. And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes.

And the one really problematic comment I hear very frequently from fellow adoptees, and this is in regards to receiving original birth certificates and you've probably heard this too, that (I'm putting this in my air quotes) adoptees are the last group denied their civil rights. Now over the last few months, we're recording this during pandemic times and, here's the buzzword, the unprecedented civil unrest in the United States, but do you see any movement in this [00:12:00] area?

In particular with adoptees over the last few months? What I think I've seen is I've seen a few adoptees get schooled over this.

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah. This is a really hard area because honestly I haven't seen as much movement as I would like. There are still so many who look at trauma and oppression competitively, and it's not just white adoptees either.

And when I try to make sense of it. I think it's invalidation, right? I think invalidation is just so painful and adoptees in general are so used to not being able to have our trauma witnessed, our pain accepted. So we might tend to make these overblown statements in comparisons hoping that it's going to be recognized that way, and unfortunately, it's very offensive.

There's no excuse for it, but I think that might be where it's coming from, but there are some who truly get it [00:13:00] though. And it really means a lot to me to see that, for me to see certain white and domestic adoptees, for instance, using their platform to talk to other white people and say, listen, this is what's going on.

Because the sad truth is for a lot of white people, they need to hear it from white people. They won't listen to me. So that is, I think, being a true accomplice.

Haley Radke: Thank you for that challenge. I have been learning a lot myself over the last number of months and what it means to be an ally and anti-racist and those things, and I'm certainly cringing at myself at many times where I've had transracial adoptees and asked them to explain microaggressions to me and all kinds of those things. So I'm for sure learning myself.

Now talking about the times we're in, your brand-new book, Everyone Was Falling, tackles so many of the very important issues that society is grappling with right now. [00:14:00] So all kinds of themes: homophobia, racism, gun control, mental health issues. And, this is awkward, but all I could think of was that line from Hamilton, which I know also can be problematic, why do you write like you're running out of time? And so that's what I was thinking when I was reading your book.

And do you have a sense that there's something in you, that you need to get these things out and just these are the issues right now and this is the message I wanna get out in my book.

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah. There's definitely a sense of urgency and I started writing this book in December of 2016, just after Trump's election.

So for several months I'd been witnessing the varied views of my network, and I sensed Trump's win coming. Several people I'd [00:15:00] known from my hometown and beyond, which is a blue state, were finally sharing some horrifying views. So when he was elected, I, like many, was deeply depressed, not only for what I saw coming in terms of immigrants and people of color, but for us.

But he's clearly a narcissist, and I had just cut ties with the narcissist in my life. So it was infuriating and to see how many people were willing to sell out the marginalized people that they supposedly loved in our families. People in our families, because we weren't considered, we were the exceptions, right?

So I wrote this book as a form of therapy, as they all are for me, and all of these themes in the book crash into one another because all of my vulnerable identities and pressure points were colliding at once. So I also really wanted to convey how we all handle traumas differently, right? And how we [00:16:00] handle them is gonna vary by our identities and life experiences and how society views or treats us.

For instance, in the book, the three main characters: Christie is the white woman and this trauma is her only trauma. So she is able to work through it in a much more free way. Where Lucy, the Asian queer adoptee, is dealing with a lot of homophobia and a lot of racism in her family. And Donna, the black character, she is viewed as a suspect. So she can't even begin to process the trauma of the gun violence because she's under attack.

So I just really wanted to explore that. And since you follow me on social media, you know that I struggle with a message from white folks that change happens slowly and you've gotta be patient. Because not everyone has time, right? So there's that sense of urgency again. There are black folks getting murdered in the streets by [00:17:00] people that are supposed to protect them. And when they're not killed, black and brown people are jailed for petty crimes, their families disrupted with ripples and ripples of repercussions.

We all know about the children in cages at the border, separated from their parents who have no means of tracking them, and there's been the heightened anti-Asian violence still ongoing through this pandemic. Which is always under-reported. So when white folks talk about the time it's gonna take, it's hard not to get riled by that because, yeah, we're running out of time.

Too many have already run out of time. And so while we're witnessing people who are really well intentioned, just starting their education, starting to read books and to try to understand things people are dying and there's irreparable harm being done. So with all of that pressure that I've been feeling I also wanted to empower people, namely people of color and women.

Because I don't [00:18:00] know if or how we're gonna get out of this tangled mess of capitalism, racism, and all these other terrible -isms. But if we do, it's not gonna be by playing by the rules, right? So that’s, without giving any spoilers, part of what's in the book.

I love that Audrey Lorde quote that a master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. That is so poignant. We're going to have to find ways around the system. Because we can't work within it. It wasn't built for us. The way it functions is by design. So all of this stuff is why I felt so compelled to write Everyone Was Falling.

Haley Radke: Goodness, 2016 you started. That's really amazing. So you've tackled, as I mentioned, some really intense subjects in Everyone Was Falling and also in Keurium. Am I saying that right? Curium?

Jessica Sun Lee: That's okay. Close enough. [00:19:00]

Haley Radke: Close enough is not good. She's so polite. And the grimace.

Jessica Sun Lee: Well, I'll tell you, I had to learn the word too. As a transracial adoptee, I didn't have my language and it's hard for me to say as well, but I asked for some help to learn how to say it correctly. It's like a D for the R,

Haley Radke: I'm almost there. I always wanna get people's names right. It's very important to me and so it's important to me to get your book title right, too.

Back to my question, the topics you cover are so intense and you mentioned before fiction is a way to tell the truth without getting in trouble. So I'm wondering if you're comfortable sharing any parts of your story that you bring through into your books and your personal understanding of PTSD. [00:20:00]

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah, this is when we get real here, right? Not that, we haven't been already. I'm obviously a transracial adoptee. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, narcissistic abuse, racial trauma. I was raped at gunpoint by multiple offenders a month after I turned 16, so I'm familiar with that type of gun violence and sexual violence.

And that's a lot, right? Despite that, while all of these things were so awful, it took decades to fully understand them and how they impacted my life. You’re just trying to survive; you’re just trying to keep putting another step forward. So it took me a really long time. I repeated the unhealthy dynamics of my childhood in adult relationships, both friendships and romantic, because I didn't have the chance to process them when they were happening.

I also experienced domestic violence. I left my abusive first husband, who was also an adoptee, at age 24. So while I was waking up to my adoptee trauma in my late twenties and how the [00:21:00] rape affected me in my thirties, it was only about five years ago that I realized the rest. I had written my adoptive mother to tell her I was finally starting to heal from the rape at 16, and her response floored me.

Instead of being happy that her daughter was finally finding peace around such a life changing trauma, she chose that opportunity to blame me for putting her through so much stress the night that it happened when she didn't know where I was. So it was just incomprehensible but it was actually bad enough for me to finally see that there was something deeply wrong.

I think it's what I really needed and I'm not glad for any of this, but it helped me see the truth. A prior therapist had once suggested that she was a narcissist, but I didn't fully understand what that meant. And I'd been blaming myself for so long for not being able [00:22:00] to get our relationship right.

So when I was finally able to see that it opened more doors to the many things that went wrong in that house. I'm not gonna lie, it was a grueling few years of processing and just coping and trying to write and get my head around things and to feel like I could move on from it all. But I had a lot of help from some key friends, online support groups.

I had a therapist, which not everybody can have, and I had my own inner will to get through it. So I have this joke that I'm alive because I'm stubborn. I wanted to live to tell my stories, and I've got plenty to keep me going. So yeah.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. One of the Twitter threads you wrote talks about resilience, and I think this is a good time to mention it because we see a lot of [00:23:00] adoptees taking some kind of pride in their resilience because they've been adopted. And you have a little bit of a different take on that. So I just wanna give you the space to talk through some of those things, if you wouldn't mind. And you have a very sobering reason for it, I think.

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah. I have a lot of feelings around that, I think, as you can imagine. I do think it's great to look at what we've made of our lives in spite of the traumas we've been through and feel proud of who we've become. I think that's so important, but I absolutely reject the idea that we owe thanks to our traumas.

I am the one who made me who I am today through a lot of hard work. And honestly, there are many times when I didn't make it. We owe ourselves that gratitude and not the things that nearly killed us, not the things that tried to kill us. We are the ones who do all the work and continue to do the work every [00:24:00] day.

A big step in my personal healing journey, which is going to be a lifelong event, has been giving myself a chance to wonder what could I have become if not for my traumas? What if I hadn't been taken from my country, culture, family language? What if I didn't have to spend so much time coping with the aftermath of my other traumas?

How might I have thrived? What might I have created? What might I have done? And I know all of that's so taboo. When I was younger it was, and some people still think it is now. They get upset, maybe because they don't wanna go there themselves? So we're not allowed; society tells us we're not allowed.

But honestly, going through those questions and that process just gave me a chance to have self-compassion for myself. Something that was so hard for me, that I really struggled with and I still do struggle with today, but it helps me move on. [00:25:00]

Haley Radke: I really appreciate that reframing and I think it's very powerful. So I think you've given us a lot to think about just with that.

Going back to Everyone Was Falling, you've got a character with multiple layers of trauma, as is your personal experience. And I've talked with other therapists about complex trauma and for adoptees, there's all of these compounding layers and we all have different stories and different experiences, but I'm curious how you wrote Everyone Was Falling with this character that has these multiple layers and picturing someone who's not adopted or doesn't have an understanding of PTSD or just being adopted in particular. What would you hope that someone like that would read and learn through your book, through your words? [00:26:00]

Is that something you think about when you write that someone outside of adoptee land might really have a deeper understanding of an adoptee?

Jessica Sun Lee: I should say it's good for a writer to be mindful of their desired leadership, and for me, it's not outsiders. I write for myself and my people. I want us to feel seen. Anyone else who reads it and gains value from it is a bonus. So they're like the cherry on top. I think a lot of folks like myself with multiple marginalizations and multiple traumas can be really frustrated by the way, society only seems to focus on one thing at a time.

A singular marginalized identity, one major trauma, but life's kind of messy, at least mine has been. We don't get to choose. We don't always get to choose just one focus. And the complexities of managing multiple stressors is a reality for a lot of us, especially people of color. And I'm always thinking of the younger [00:27:00] generation and trying to give them what I might have wanted or think about what I might have needed.

If you're one of the demographics that industry caters towards, you might take for granted how valuable it is to see yourself accurately represented in a variety of ways. I'm probably going to pronounce her name incorrectly, but I just love a writer named Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. She did this talk called “The Danger of a Single Story.” You can Google it. It's a great short piece where she talks about how, because as marginalized people, our stories aren't told in platitude that there's so much pressure for us to tell everybody's story in one story.

And with that mindset, we're going to fail because no story can do that. We should be able to tell all of the stories we wanna tell without having them have to represent an entire community. And basically the solution to that is [00:28:00] for more marginalized people to be given more opportunities to tell our stories.

And I know for adoptees, we're always trying to fight against the happy-go-lucky, perfect, fairytale adoption story. So that's for adoptees. And then add every other marginalization or different identity on top of that. There's so much pressure to cover everybody and you just can't. We can't do that.

Haley Radke: I'm curious if you have thoughts on non-adopted people writing adoptees as characters.

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah, I do have thoughts on that. I think it happens too often and I haven't seen it done very well frequently. There might be one that I think had a lot of research behind it, but typically I find it offensive.

The representation tends to fall [00:29:00] into stereotypes that we adoptees fight against. And when it comes to movies, especially, oof, that I find extremely upsetting because that's so accessible to the public. It's what people are going to gravitate towards. There's more investment in getting through a book than maybe an hour-and-a-half, two-hour movie.

And a lot of times it's really frustrating to see the poor representation and to have the things that we're constantly, the adoptee creatives, are fighting against. It's just being piled on top with these dangerous, incorrect narratives.

Haley Radke: What you said earlier about writing for yourself and for your community, something I actually love about both of the fiction books that I've read of yours, I think, the general public would love them as well, and there's this big education piece to me, and I always picture [00:30:00] someone who has no connection to adoption reading, like what an adoptee's experience could really be like.

And it's on the slide, they're learning things about adoptee life without maybe intending to. So yeah, I totally agree about all the tropes that adoptees are put into. More than just adoptees, pick up your book.

Okay. As we're winding down, let's go back to writing a little bit. And you said you, you did write a memoir. I haven't read it. I'll admit. I didn't know you had a memoir. I think a lot of adoptees focus on writing memoir as their first book. And I've heard from a lot of my listeners that they're trying to write down their story and trying to get their truth out there.

Is there something you could give advice in that area? Maybe there's some permission that's given in fiction that could be a little bit more freeing for them. What are your thoughts on that for an adoptee [00:31:00] who feels like they need to get their story out, but it's a little bit scary to do memoir.

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah. I think that it is a great way to take back some power by owning your story. I highly recommend it. I don't think you have to be a writer to do that. I think you should. It's a very therapeutic process, and I would say write it as if nobody's going to read it. That's how you're gonna get the most truth. especially as adoptees, there's that fear, like you just mentioned.

You need to be as honest as possible not just about the events, but, you know, how you are feeling along the way and how different situations or pieces of awareness just moved through you. I think that's what makes it really all the more therapeutic and real. And just keep writing.

Just keep writing, keep revising and don't expect to ever have money. [00:32:00] I see some people saying, oh, I just need to write a book and all these, and, oh, that's not how it works. You write it because you need to. Because you need to, because the story needs to be heard. You need to tell that story, and if it's important to you, you'll find a way to bring it out.

You know what's funny to me? I follow a lot of writers on Twitter and I see a lot of them talking about how miserable the process is. And I don't get that. I wonder if maybe they're just not writing what they really want to write, because for me, nothing else I do makes me feel more whole, more like myself, than when I'm writing, out of all the things that I do.

And maybe I feel that way because for so long I wasn't free to speak my truth. But it is just, I think, such a wonderful gift to give yourself is to be able to write your story. I do think, personally, I do prefer fiction. Not because of fear of getting in [00:33:00] trouble anymore, but I just think it is a way for me to be more honest and reveal even more because I have to look at things from a slightly different angle. And, creating characters that you get to know on the most intimate level is so satisfying for me.

But then of course, bringing my adoption back into this, it's sad to move on once you get to know these characters that you've created so well. It's abandonment perhaps rising because even when I am starting a new novel that I'm so excited about, there's a longing, a sadness, not a betrayal, but like a feeling of loss. So that's how close I think a lot of writers get to their characters. It's very rewarding.

Haley Radke: That is so special insider info to know. I haven't heard anyone talk about that before and I think it's because I probably have conversations a [00:34:00] lot with more memoir authors or in the self-help genre. So that is really special, like they’re your people again.

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah. I had to create my own people. I do have my people now too that live outside, real breathing people.

Haley Radke: I'm so glad you mentioned that. Everyone can know that Jessica's is okay, She’s got all her friends and her chosen people.

Oh my goodness, I've learned so much from you. And right at the beginning you shared that your story has changed over the years based on information that people were giving you. And so you don't necessarily know your true beginnings, and coming to writing your story changes over the years as well, likely. Thank you for that wisdom. I really find that valuable.

Okay. So let's move to recommended resources. [00:35:00] And I'm so excited to have you on to share about your books. So your brand-new book, it's gonna be released in just a couple of days, which is so exciting. Are you excited or do you get nervous for release?

Jessica Sun Lee: Yeah, it's a mixture of both. I am excited for people to read it. I do think it's unintentionally very timely. I didn't expect for the past six months to have been what they have been, but yeah, we'll see what people think. I do think it's gonna have a lot of mixed results. It's gonna be challenging for some people.

I'd love to know how it was for you to read?

Haley Radke: So it's called Everyone Was Falling and I read it. I probably would've read it in one sitting had I not had my little people around bothering me. But I loved it and I loved all the nuances of the various characters. And I find it hard to do a [00:36:00] review when I don't wanna give any spoilers whatsoever.

I wouldn't even read the back cover. I would just go in and just enjoy the experience. You'll learn a lot from reading it, and I found it really powerful and insightful. There are so many little nuggets that I highlighted through the whole book and I don't wanna spoil anything. What can I read to you that would be not spoilery?

Jessica, while I was reading it, I thought, am I really learning a lot about Jessica through reading this? Because there's these little vignettes and moments where you share an experience about connecting with other adoptees and connecting with something with Korean culture and all of those little pieces.

I felt that was a really powerful way to get to know an author through reading fiction. So I might have made some assumptions during that time as well. So I'm really glad I got the opportunity to interview you, [00:37:00] to hear a little bit more about that. And your other book was so good, too. And the cover! Now tell me something. Did you design this?

Jessica Sun Lee: I did, yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. Can you describe the cover for us?

Jessica Sun Lee: It's an Asian woman's profile. So she's sort of part of her, half of her face is above water, so you can see her forehead, eyes, nose, mouth, and chin. But the water is rising. And there's a reflection of her in the water. It's a bit fragmented, so it really ties into the story of Keurium, where she is without power. She's catatonic in the hospital for half the book. And she's reflecting on her past, on pieces of her past, and trying to make sense of them because she didn't have the opportunity to do so along the way.

So now that she's stuck in this state and has [00:38:00] nothing, no excuses, no distractions but her own mind, she's able to find her truth and understand her past and how it led to where she ends up.

Haley Radke: And so when I look at the covers together and I also see fragmentation that maybe I'm reading into that, but on the cover of Everyone was Falling.

Jessica Sun Lee: Oh yeah, so Everyone was Falling. The sensitivity reader, Emmy, who I worked with was fantastic. She and I were chatting and I was really having a struggle with the design of this cover, and she suggested what about having the fireworks somehow overlaying her face? The character’s face. And I said, oh, I never actually thought of that.

And I started playing with it and I loved it because so much of her story just came to [00:39:00] life. And of course the story began the weekend of 4th of July. And the PTSD of fireworks and everything just fit. I didn't intend for it to be a collaboration, but it ended up being really cool.

Haley Radke: If there was ever any doubt, Jessica is a true artist. She's got a beautiful eye for that. And so creative. I love them both. I'll admit, I have stared at the cover of Keurium for a long time just because I do find it very powerful. So to hear you explain it is wonderful.

Jessica Sun Lee: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Please go check out Jessica's books. I'm curious what you brought for us today as your recommended resource.

Jessica Sun Lee: So this is very unorthodox because I know I've listened to your show and it's usually adoptee-centric resources, but I really felt it might be important to recommend something that's Asian American history because we aren't [00:40:00] really taught Asian American history in the United States, especially not accurate history.

So I read this wonderful book by a woman named Helen Zia and she reads her own story. So let me just back up a little. The title of the book is called Asian American Dreams: The Emergence of an American People, and it was written in 2001. I believe she might be working on re-releasing it because it is so timely right now.

She weaves her story in through Asian American history and how her firsthand experiences of living through the lynching of Vincent Chin and, as a journalist, how she became an activist and so much information that I had no idea about. And I know others don't either.

In the United States, the Asian Americans [00:41:00], we have been used as a tool of anti-blackness to prop up this whole bootstraps mentality to keep other people of color, black, Latinx, more brown people down. And the truth is, we are the race that has the greatest wealth gap also. We are not a monolith, the one that they choose to portray us as.

It’s, I just think, a very crucial piece of history, not a piece of history but we're a demographic that's very misunderstood in this country. And I think the more we understand the way different races of people have been used and oppressed, the more we can know what's going on today.

Yeah, that's my long-winded answer.

Haley Radke: I love it. Thanks for challenging us. I think we need to be challenged more often. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us and [00:42:00] for those insights into why you write. I'm really thankful. Where can we connect with you online?

Jessica Sun Lee: I first just wanna say thank you to you. I love what you do. Thanks for giving a voice to a variety of different types of adoptees. It's wonderful and I can be found at jessicasunlee.com. My Twitter handle is also Jessica Sun Lee.

Haley Radke: And where is the best place to pick up Everyone Was Falling?

Jessica Sun Lee: I'm going to say any independent bookstore. Support your independent bookstores. They need it now more than ever. And they care for us. They care for writers; they care for the community. The larger stores don't.

And if you go on to my website or if you just type in everyonewasfalling.com, it will lead to that page and it has links to bookshop.org, indiebound.org and then there's also an Amazon link if you feel that's the way you'd like to buy them. [00:43:00]

Those, I think, are the best alternatives to just calling up your local bookstore and asking for it, and they'll get it for you.

Haley Radke: Perfect. Love it. And just so you guys know, when an author is releasing a brand-new book, this is the best time to pre-order if you can. If you're listening to this after it's released, no problem. Grab it anyway and make sure you go and rate and review it wherever you like to collect those things.

So you can give five stars on Amazon. You can go to Goodreads, anywhere that you like to look for books. It's really helpful to authors if you give it five stars and write, even if it's just a couple sentences. It's super, super duper helpful. Thanks so much for chatting with me today, Jessica.

As we mentioned at the beginning of the [00:44:00] show, Adoptees On and Jessica Sun Lee are doing a signed-book giveaway. So to find out how to enter, go over to Instagram and the Adoptees On Instagram account. The handle is @adopteeson, and we will have a post with the two books that Jessica is giving away, signed copies, to one listener.

And we will have the instructions on that giveaway post. So go to Instagram @adopteeson is the handle, and you can easily find that post. You'll have about a week to enter from when this episode airs, and Jessica will be sending those books out. So excited. We haven't done a giveaway for a while, so that's really fun.

I am really thankful for people like Jessica who are willing to share some of the really hard things with us and I know there's a lot of you that are going through it right now, especially during the [00:45:00] pandemic times, and I know in the US there's elections and all kinds of things happening. Thinking of you, it's rough out there.

So I'm really grateful for those of you that keep speaking up, keep sharing your story and keep talking about the difficult things and not pretending like they're not happening. The other thanks I wanna give is to my monthly Patreon supporters.

So thankful for your support. I wouldn't be able to do the show without you. And like I said, a few weeks ago, we're going back to our weekly schedule with new episodes. And so you are helping to cover the production costs of the show, which is just a great help to me. So if you wanna join the other people that think Adoptees On is so valuable, they're willing to even share the cost of producing the show. Go to adopt design.com/partner and there's more details there.

And also details of all the fun benefits [00:46:00] you get by supporting the show monthly, including another weekly podcast. So I know we're on show #152 here. On Off Script. I think we're up to Episode 77, so I am well into the two hundreds of podcast making, which is wild.

Anyway, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for listening, and let's talk again next Friday.

150 [Healing Series] Mother Loss Part 2

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/150


Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

This is Part 2 of our discussion about Mother Loss. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Stephanie Oyler and Amanda Transue-Woolston. Welcome back.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you for having us.

Haley Radke: Okay, so last time we talked about some very sad things you both shared about the loss of your first mother, Stephanie, and Amanda, the loss of your adoptive mother. And you really talked us through some of the practical things that were just happening for you in the moment.

And we even mentioned that you're kind of in shock and you're kind of going through the motions at that point, and not necessarily that there was anything that you could have prepared ahead of time for this sort of loss.

Now let's put on therapy hats, social worker expertise hats. Looking at mother loss, Amanda, I got this quote from your Facebook page you shared:

“Because I am adopted, I will lose more than one mother more than one time throughout my lifespan.”

That's pretty powerful. Do you have some thoughts on that?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes. When we talk about the “adoption triad,” which I don't use personally but it's very popular, we think of the adoptee, the first mother and the adoptive mother, and it's like this triangle with equal sides, which we know is not a thing, first of all, because there's power imbalances and representation imbalances in adoption and also because there's so many other factors and players involved.

I love the idea of the constellation so much more. But that idea of the triad, I think, causes people to see, if they're going to agree with me, that adoption involves a lot of loss which is still hard for people to comprehend. They're thinking, well, okay, you lost your first mother and then your adoptive mother died. The end.

And it's even more where I personally pull in the visual of the constellation because I lost a foster mother. I lost my first mother one time, but then I also reunited. So I eventually will also be involved as an adult in her end-of-life planning because we're close. And then also I have the loss of my adoptive mother, and I have this kind of ambiguous loss of never having gained much information about my foster mother either.

And being a therapist and being a social worker and working with children, I have an understanding of childhood development and I know better than to think that I'm not affected by these losses of my first mother or my foster mother just because I was young and couldn't remember those times.

I know better, and it's actually more concerning that I didn't have language at that time to process because you carry it around with you. And when emotions arise now, as an adult, I have to wonder when was the first time I actually felt this way? And was it when I was a child? And what is behind the feelings that I feel now as an adult, just in my everyday life? Because I don't know a lot about the first five months of my life. I won't have answers.

Depending on how many placements you had, depending on if your foster or your adoptive placement was disrupted, depending on if you were reunited later, you can lose multiple primary parental figures over and over again and also be in a position of having to teach people what that is like for you, if they're even willing to put aside their own assumptions that it doesn't matter or that only one of those mothers or fathers is allowed to matter.

When you get past that part, now you have to teach them what “mother loss” is.

Haley Radke: Talk about grief through the life cycle. Like, wow, do we get layers?

Stephanie, even when I was talking with you and Amanda about having this conversation, I broached the subject of I feel like this was pretty recent for you guys. Do you want to wait a little bit longer? And you guys both were like, no, no, no, we're ready, let's go.

Stephanie Oyler: You know, everything Amanda just said really, really hits home. I mean, just the amount of loss, and I'm thinking of the kids I work with even now, and just how people don't recognize it. They don't recognize anything but the loss of a mom, like the one mom who raised you.

And even going into the foster care piece, you know, I was in a couple of different foster homes. I was in one foster home for a pretty long time, and that was pretty significant because I was described as a very different child in their home. And then redescribed and re-, I don't even know, I was just a whole different child when I moved into my adoptive home.

So just the idea that I want to be able to know who I was before that point and I'm probably never going to get that opportunity.

It is a lot of loss. It's a lot of, it's just a lot of loss.

Haley Radke: I'm curious, both of you have mentioned that you have your children and how were you able to tell them about losing their, I'm not sure, sorry if this is presumptuous, Stephanie, but if you presented your first mother as a grandmother figure to them or not, and then Amanda, your kids losing their grandmother, how were you able to present that to them?

Was that really challenging? You know, I think, just that extra layer why I'm asking this is: For a lot of us, we feel like we're starting a new legacy once we have children and keeping our family intact. So I think there's this whole extra piece to it. Sharing this loss with our kids.

Stephanie Oyler: So my son is younger and he's a little bit crazy, so bringing him around my first mother would've been difficult because she had a lot of mental health issues and she took a lot of things very personally. She didn't understand certain things, so my son met her but I didn't really bring him around.

My daughter I did, and she's nine. She was eight when my first mom passed. She was there. She actually came into the room to say goodbye, and it was very difficult to explain because she understands adoption to an extent, but she didn't understand death. So I think the idea of that being a first real loss for her and then also just getting to know my first mom, she was a grandmother figure, but not in the same sense as my adoptive mom.

So I think it's still complicated even now. We're still kind of having conversations around it. There's actually been a lot of loss over this whole Covid situation. Our dog passed away a couple months ago, so there's been a lot of conversations around it and a lot of confusion.

So that's just an ongoing conversation, just developmentally, with both of them.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: I've asked myself this question and it's hard. It's been hard for me because I want to give people advice that I personally connect to. And it's hard for me to say how much of the explaining for my children was on me because it was really my husband that told them because I was in Florida.

So when he picked them up from school that day, I was already in Florida and he had to tell them why I left and where I was. And so I don't exactly know how he did that. I assume it would be very similar to the way that I would because he's been a paramedic for a long time. He works in a big city. Death and trauma is kind of just what he does every day. So my children are very familiar with that just because, you know, fire service and emergency service becomes part of a family culture.

My children also have participated in my interest in positive death culture literature and media. And so there's a death-positive creator that I really like. Her name is Caitlin Doughty and she's written books for kids. So I've read those with my children.

A lot of that was a part of me wanting to continue staying competent for my work in hospice, but also, even though I'm not working in hospice anymore, because within two years prior to my adoptive mother dying, my biological paternal brother died. My biological father's sister died. My grandmother, who was my kid's great-grandmother, my mom's mom, she died and was close to my children.

Other people died. There was more. People that we knew. It just seemed to come in waves. And so we had had this conversation already. And also our dog had died too.

So we don't use “pass away.” We don't use “went to heaven.” We've always said their heart stops. Their brain is not functioning anymore. Their personality words, the ability to take in information doesn't happen anymore. The body immediately starts breaking down, you know, and this is what happens when you bury something that's been alive. It becomes part of that whole cycle of life again.

And so we've always been very literal and concrete about death. And so they, my kids, seem to be able to apply that to when their nanny died. My youngest son, he has some mental health disabilities. And so he seems to understand, but I do answer some rather childlike questions. He's nine but he's developmentally younger in his thoughts, and so I do tend to answer more questions for him, and so sometimes I'm unsure how much he understands or is it a matter of how he's expressing himself.

Does he not know how to tell me that he understands, or does he generally still not kind of get what's happening? His first reaction was, what is wrong with Florida? Because his great grandmother had just died in Florida almost about a year prior. So he's like, Florida is where people go to die?

He did not really want me down there with my dad because I stayed in the hospital room with my dad. I slept on the chair and on a cot for eight days when he was in the ICU. So, that was the whole thing, them trying to get me out of his room. I was like, no, I'm not worried about any of you people here liking me. I'm not leaving my dad's side. That's just not happening, nope. We are loyal, we adoptees. We can be loyal to a tee.

So, anyway they didn't want me in Florida because Florida's a bad place. So that was my youngest son's first reaction. It's also been very weird because of the pandemic.

I feel like when people died when I was younger, I processed a lot of it through the awkward questions other people would ask me as a kid. Like, do you miss your whoever-it-was? It was just weird things people ask because they don't have to talk to kids.

But nobody really had contact with my children or my family, so it's hard to know if we're understanding and explaining normally because we haven't even had my mom's funeral yet. So this is completely new territory.

Stephanie Oyler: Yeah, it’s so interesting because I started to think more about my son in the mix, and he was in the hospital as well. He didn't go into the room. We kind of gave him an idea of why we were there, but just recently he's been very concerned about death. And I'm sure it's part of the pandemic that we're in and the dog dying and then my first mom, and he actually asked my adoptive mom when she had dropped by, we haven't seen her that often just because of all the restrictions and whatnot.

But he actually looked at her and was like, oh, I thought you were dead. And I thought about it and it just dawned on me the connection between the grandmother piece as well, because my first mom was considered a grandmother, and then, you know, she disappeared and then now we're in a pandemic, and then my mom disappeared, my adoptive mom.

So, yeah, I think it's just a lot more coming up with him just around death. And where do people go? And, well, I wanna visit them. He's five, so he's younger. Well, how do we get there? That's been a lot more, I think it took him a little bit to realize that when someone passes away or they die, they're not coming back.

I think that was something that's just now kind of recently started. So the conversations are coming back up, it's just ongoing. As we move through the emotions and the processing and just how each wave is different and how different things can trigger emotions or memories and just how that's impacting right now.

Especially with all the extra stuff happening around the pandemic.

Haley Radke: Totally, totally. Oh my goodness. There's so many things that kids just are expected to kind of jump on board and know right now that we, even as adults, don't know either.

Now I'm curious, in the same vein of having conversations and things, what both of you mentioned in our last episode was some of the ridiculous things people were saying to you as you're in this state of shock and grieving, or not even necessarily to the point of grieving yet.

But do you have any advice, coaching, anything that, now with hindsight, you can think, okay, if I had phrased something this way, this might have shut down some of those inappropriate questions? You know, it should. The onus shouldn't be on us. I totally get that. But if there is some piece of advice that you could give another adoptee who might be in a similar situation at some point.

Things we can say to shut down those inappropriate things. Especially when you're dealing with someone who doesn't understand the grief piece we're going through, like we mentioned disenfranchised grief last time.

Stephanie Oyler: I think it's hard to give advice because when you're in the moment, it's really hard to think about what you're going to say. So I think that that's where I trip up.

I think what I should have said was, this was my mom and I'm hurting. And that probably would've shut it down. But I think I was just so taken aback by the fact that people didn't even realize that this would be a painful thing for me and a hard thing. That it just kept me tripped up in what to say.

And I don't know if I have advice on how to combat that because I just feel when you're in the moment, your emotions are your emotions. And I guess I would say it's not a reflection on your relationship. It's not a reflection on the experience that you've had with your first family or whoever at that point.

It's just that people don't get it. And that doesn't mean that it's any less important or you grieve any less. And just being kind to yourself in that, because I think I was hard on myself in the sense that maybe I didn't speak about her enough.

Maybe I should have expressed that I had this relationship with her, and then people wouldn't think that I didn't, and they would understand that it hurts. So I think that's the piece, just being kind to yourself and allowing yourself the grace in the moment when you don't have all the right words.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes. I think that Stephanie's strategy of preparing yourself to safeguard yourself from the reactions that people are going to have is the best, most self-loving way to get yourself through that process.

One thing that I keep in mind for anybody that's going through any type of death and loss is that people tend to respond to the grieving in ways that meet their own needs first. And I don't think that people realize that they're doing that.

And so to give an example, my aunt came to the hospital when I was with my dad and she kept taking me aside for coffee, and I didn't want to leave my dad's room. So it's her wanting to take me aside, she needed to feel like she was doing something for me, even though that's not necessarily what I needed or wanted. Her desire to take me aside for coffee.

She got so frustrated with me because I wouldn't cry in front of her, and she actually gave me feedback that that made her feel like she wasn't being helpful or that we're not very close, because I wasn't crying in front of her. And so it was that people tend to feel like this is what I have to give you and I need you as the grieving person to make me feel as though what I have and what I want to give is helpful to you.

When we mix adoption into that, it becomes even more painful because a lot of people have their own assumptions about adoption. Even therapists who aren't adoption competent will approach adoption as though it's something easy.

And if you just had that one right thing that a therapist could tell you. The adoptee must not realize how simple this is because it's simple in the mind of the person or of the therapist. So I'll just say a few phrases at you and then you'll get it. Like, oh, well, you don't need to be sad because she loved you so much, she gave you away. And it's like, oh, that never occurred to me. Thank you so much!

But people have those grief snippets that they want to throw at you with adoption too. Like I can make you feel better and I can make myself feel good for being the person that made you feel better in your grief by reminding you that you still have your other mother. Like, you still have your adoptive mother and she's the one that raised you anyway. Or if you just realize this adoption thing was so simple by these one-liners that I have to throw at you.

I didn't hear as many as Stephanie did, but one thing that I did hear was the story with my aunt and then doctors and nurses making comments in the hospital about if I was related because I don't really look like either of my parents. And I told one of the nurses that my mom had died and I wasn't crying again because I don't feel comfortable crying in front of people.

And she just looked at me and was like, oh, well you must be the stepdaughter then? Because I wasn't acting the right way and I didn't look the right way. And so she felt the need to parse out why I wasn't and that was her selfish curiosity that wasn't about me.

All that is to say we need to safeguard ourselves for how people will seek to meet their own needs in grief through us needing them or us telling them they did a good job or whatever. And they will mix adoption themes into that.

You can try to educate and you can try to explain yourself, but it's okay not to, as well, because the more you explain to someone who may not be interested in learning, the more you just give your power and your time for yourself away.

Haley Radke: Well, that's some amazing insights from both of you. Thank you. I know that as friends and colleagues, you guys have been talking with each other about these things and your losses and have been kind of going through this mourning together.

Can you tell us any other things that have kind of popped up for you that are really different, you know, grieving the loss of an adoptive mother versus a first mother. I don't know about “versus,” it doesn't sound right to say it that way, but I hope you know the spirit of the question I'm asking, not necessarily for just comparison's sake but just it's different circumstances.

So do you have any thoughts on that?

Stephanie Oyler: I know for me it was very difficult to go into the hospital and speak to doctors. I don't want to say uncomfortable, but I just felt like an imposter. Like, she didn't raise me. Am I allowed to do this? Are they going to want me? I almost felt like I had to tell my story every single time I went. I was adopted and this and that.

I spoke to a couple other people who were in similar situations and that's a common theme that I've seen. Just the idea that we're put into this situation to make these decisions, life or death decisions, and sometimes we just ask ourselves: Are we allowed to? Is that okay?

I feel like an imposter because she didn't raise me. And am I allowed to make these decisions for her? And what if it's not what she wants? And I'm confident that I made the right decision. I did know my mom, and I did know that this is what she would've wanted, but it still creeps up. Am I worthy of making these decisions?

So I know that that was a really overarching theme. Every time I walked into the hospital, every time I answered the phone to a doctor, every time I spoke to the agency who provided case management services with her, I just felt like a person, almost like on the outside, coming in to make the decisions, if that makes sense.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes. So we've covered a lot of the overarching themes that Stephanie and I would need to cover if we were making a book or we were making a resource. What is everything that we would need to cover? We've covered a lot. We've touched on a lot of it so far in this two-part series.

Some other things that I know we've put on our list. We talked about spouses and children. We talked about belonging and relatedness. How do people perceive you as being related depending on birth or adoption. We've talked about finding support.

It looks different if you are biologically related but weren't raised with that family versus being raised with the family but not sharing that genetic connection, when it comes to instructing others about how to respond. Or adoption competence and finding support.

Some other things that we talked about were the idea of obligation, because that is family systems theory. Murray Bowen, who is the father of family systems theory, actually proposed as part of his theory that it's being cared for as a child that obligates.

The better you are cared for as a child, the stronger your sense of obligation will be as an adult to take care of a parent. But adoptees kind of throw that for a loop because they have had their caregiving often split up between multiple caregivers or contentious relationships with their adoptive parents. And then they have biological parents that may not have raised them, but they will step in and make those end-of-life decisions.

And that obligation is, I don't want to call it “obligation,” but that's the theory. It's there, even though the early childhood caregiving wasn't there. And so we challenge that theory. And what is that? What makes adoptees step in regardless of childhood connections.

Inheritance of heirlooms. When you have no legal ties, when your legal ties are severed from your biological family, you are not legally entitled to anything. I mean, there may be some exceptions in a few states.

When you are adopted, you are legally entitled to whatever, but your family may not agree that those items should be yours because your family may feel that [you are not family].

Personally, I inherited a necklace from my mother that was made from her grandmother and her mother's wedding rings. And I know she would've wanted her wedding ring added to it, and I've already put in my will that it's going to my niece, my niece who is genetically related.

I don't even want to know what my family thinks about me keeping those things, you know. It's fine, but your legal relationship versus your nurturing relationship affects how entitled you feel to these items versus whether someone else thinks that you should have them.

We talked about being entitled to grief. That was another one. And the differences between making next-of-kin decisions.

So for us, neither of us were legally, technically the next of kin, but when you're in that position anyway, we had talked about [how] there's a lot of emphasis when we're children on keeping biological and adoptive families separate and making sure that adoptive families have all of the decision-making and all of the rights and everything.

If the original first family is present at all, they're there for visits and stuff, but they're not parenting, and we're alienating adoptees from their resources in that way. But when first parents and adoptive parents are aging and there aren't systems in place to take care of them, we have encountered, as social workers, [cases] where it's like, oh, they have a long-lost adopted child, let's find them because someone needs to come make decisions for Mabel.

Then all of a sudden, they want to pull us in. And then it doesn't matter. Like, oh, you met them once when you were five? Yes? Please, someone come and make these decisions because we don't care for our elders like we should. And that's when all of a sudden adoptees are allowed to be resources.

We hear that. I was hearing about that when I was still in social work school, where a caseworker for someone who was experiencing financial abuse, elder abuse, they found that they had relinquished a son like 50, 60, 70 years ago, and they went and found that son, reunited them so that he could become her new decision-maker. And he did. And he was glad to do it, you know, and so that's when, oh, who cares about secrecy? Someone needs to step in and solve these problems.

Haley Radke: Well, that's pretty fascinating. Wow.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes. So there's all this other legal stuff about do we go with a feeling of entitlement through nurture? Or do we go through a legal entitlement through adoption? Or do we go through, we're biologically related? And adoptees are always adoptees and consistently show up on all fronts.

Whether or not we're accepted or embraced, adoptees tend to be the ones that are accountable and willing to help.

Haley Radke: Like I said, I find that really fascinating. Thank you for those points.

And you know, we're sort of wrapping up. The one thing that just keeps popping up into my head, you're both speaking from the point of view of you were connected to and had a relationship with the mothers we've been talking about.

How many adoptees have you heard from where they find out via a Google search that either an estranged adoptive parent passed? Or a first parent who maybe they had a brief reunion with and that ended? Or maybe they weren't reunited at all? And you know, there's all these themes of I'm left out of the obituary, nobody even phoned me to tell me. Those sorts of things.

Would you mind speaking to someone who's had that experience? And just as an encouragement, you know, even if you aren't acknowledged in that way, what are some ways you can still process the loss and take care of yourself? Because I feel like that would be extremely hurtful.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: It is hurtful. For me, I know it's hard to speak on because I haven't been left out of anything when it comes to my adoptive mother because everything has been on my shoulders.

I made all of her end-of-life decisions. I handled all of the disposition of her remains and all of those choices. It was a car accident with a reckless driver, so I've handled all of her wrongful death investigation and the insurance companies. I wrote her obituaries and I'm planning her whole funeral. And my dad, love him so much, my dad is just like, yeah, Amanda's got it. So, I don't want to be left out, but I'm too involved. I don't have boundaries with this.

The only thing when my aunt died, I wasn't told about any of her funeral arrangements. I wasn't involved. It was important to me. My biological father was, my readers are familiar with him. He was not a very good person. And of course, that affected my aunt through her whole life. It really alienated her from others, and I would've loved to have done special things for her when she died because she still celebrated my birthday, my growing up, even though she never knew if she would ever see me.

But her own sons were just kind of like….I can't even find that they put an obituary in for her. So I heard she died through town gossip in Maine, which the entire state of Maine is a small town. So that is not directly related to my mother's losses, but that is an example and I can empathize with other adoptees about that.

And I know Stephanie, it was all on you too, right?

Stephanie Oyler: Yeah, it was all on me. And I'm actually in the process of kind of planning everything out for her as well. But I do see and recognize the loss of wanting to find your family or wanting to find your mother or father and searching. And then to find out that they passed away.

And sometimes I've spoken to people for whom it was within the last year of their search and they just weren't able to meet them in time. And just the incredible amount of loss, not only for the parent, but the relationship that could have been and that was almost there. I can't imagine that loss.

And I, as well, empathize with that. And I can't imagine that as I'm grateful that I was able to have a relationship with my first mother and to experience and make memories with her. So there's just so much loss, I think, in adoption.

There's so many ways it can go, so many twists and turns. There's that all of a sudden it's loss again. It's a theme from the very beginning. And yeah, I really do empathize with situations like that as well.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: One other piece that I think is important to mention is the racial cultural ritual differences that I think are important to pay homage to.

I was not transracially adopted and as a white person in the United States, everybody wears black and, you know, sniffles at the graveside. I feel like that's generally accommodated in the funeral industry.

And when it comes to embracing the death rituals and experiences of communities of color, that's not as well represented and what the everyday person knows about death and dying.

And so I think it would be so cool for Stephanie to be interviewed, if she's comfortable in the future, about when you are a person of color trying to plan and have your rituals incorporated and the person that you're grieving may be of a different race than you. Or you're trying to plan for your mother who was a person of color with a white funeral director and they don't know how to manage hair or makeup or skin in a respectful way for someone that's different than them.

We talk about adoptees of color not having their hair taken care of properly as children. But even into adulthood, do adoptees of color have an opportunity to learn their original families’ death practices and also overcome the racism in the funeral industry that they may encounter?

And so that's something that I know Stephanie can uniquely speak on, and I definitely want to support her and other adoptees in doing that when they're ready because I'm not equipped to talk about that myself.

Stephanie Oyler: I think that's a really important thing. And actually it didn't affect me when I went to the hospital, but I was nervous going in because my mother is white.

My first mother was white and my father was black. And I don't really look like anybody. So I was nervous in the fact that I'm coming in as an adoptee. I wasn't legally raised by her and, on top of it, I have no paperwork saying that's my mom, you know. And just like how that was going to play out.

But I definitely agree. There's just so much to unpack with cultural pieces of that. So I agree with Amanda on that.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you so much for bringing that up as well. Like we've said, right? All the complexities of layers.

Wow. There's so much to unpack. And I'm excited to hear that you guys are going to be working on this, and I'm sure that as we follow your blogs and other efforts, we will hear more about this from you in the future, which is wonderful.

So speaking of that, Stephanie, where can we connect with you online?

Stephanie Oyler: You can find me at adopteelit.com. I just launched my business and it is a consultation business for adoptive parents, a mentoring business in the sense that for adoptees, both minor and adult, and then an education business that I hope to provide workshops on. And I also have a blog that is linked directly from that website.

Haley Radke: Perfect. And Amanda, how about you?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: I have my professional website, amandawoolston.com and my adoptee blogging website, declassifiedadoptee.com. All of my social medias are there. I forgot to mention last time, I have started a podcast for The Declassified Adoptee, in that I have been asked for years to make my content more accessible by turning it into audio, and I chose a podcasting format for that.

I am doing a dramatic reading, I guess you could say, of my written content at wherever you subscribe to your podcasts, for folks who find it easier or more preferable to listen instead of having to read. That's another accessibility option for them.

And I have to give credit to Stephanie because that was inspired by her because we are also working on a podcast together, which was her idea. That is different, that's a real podcast. It'll be a real podcast show.

I'm also on Stitcher and whatever else under The Declassified Adoptee.

Haley Radke: Perfect. Thank you so much. Look forward to hearing more news about that and we will make sure to share it on Adoptees On when you guys launch. Thanks so much for your wisdom. Really appreciate it. It's been such an honor talking with you both today.

Make sure you are following Stephanie and Amanda to see what they have coming up. I promise it is going to be worthwhile. And I love seeing more adoptive voices out there, more adoptees sharing in different ways that really help our community heal and actually look at the impact adoption has had on us and how we can move forward.

I really appreciate that so much. So, thank you so much, Stephanie and Amanda, for sharing with us. Grateful for your work. And I look forward to cheering you on in all the new things that you have coming up.

Okay, friends, I'm so grateful for you for listening. One of the best ways that you can help the show that's totally free is just sharing this episode with another adoptee that you know that might have had a loss in their life.

You can show them how to download this particular episode on their phone in a podcast player. The episodes are also available on Facebook and YouTube. There's no video. It's just sounds, you can just have it playing in the background. But it's a real help when you get just one other person to listen to an episode.

Another way to help support the show is to sign up for our monthly Patreon, which is adopteeson.com/partner. And there's more details about the weekly podcast that's produced just for Patreon supporters, the secret Facebook group. There are some Zoom calls that have been happening with that group. There's also a level where you can Skype with me, which feels silly, but you can.

So there's a whole bunch of different ways you can help support the show for free or with a monthly gift if that's something that's in your budget. So thank you so much for doing that, and the next few weeks are super-duper exciting.

Some of our upcoming episodes are with authors who have brand new books out. So we're going to do some book chat, which is so fun, and they’re really, really good books, you guys, I can't wait to share them with you. And, man, these authors are very insightful and thoughtful, and I have learned a lot talking with them, so I know you will too.

Make sure you're subscribed however you like to listen, and we'll be back again next week with a brand-new episode of the podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

149 [Healing Series] Mother Loss Part 1

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/149


Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves. So they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

I just want to give you a quick update before we get to today's show, and that is we are going back to weekly episodes, so make sure you're subscribed wherever you love to listen to podcasts so you don't miss any episodes. Today's show is two-parter, so next Friday we're going to have Part Two of our conversation.

We are talking about mother loss and…I just wanna prepare you. This is a very powerful conversation with two incredible women, and you are going to hear their very recent stories of losing their mothers and how that's impacted them, what it really looked like right when it was happening, and I mean, sometimes I'm–no, often, I'm shocked at the candor people share with us. And so you are stepping into some sacred space today and next week will be as well.

So I hope that you find this conversation as helpful and enlightening as I did. It's one of the most impactful I think we've had here. Without further ado, we're talking mother loss. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Amanda Transue-Woolston and Stephanie Oyler.

Welcome, ladies.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you for having us.

Stephanie Oyler: Yes, thank you.

Haley Radke: It's my first Healing Series three-way conversation, and so it's just a pleasure to talk with you. I'm so excited. We're going to talk about some hard things today, and I'm very honored to be able to learn from you both. And let's start out–Amanda, can you share a little bit of your story and how you became a therapist and social worker and etcetera?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you so much for having me, for having us. This is exciting. I have explained this so many times and you would think that I have this “elevator speech" down… But as my identities keep evolving, I keep adding and taking away how I explain who I am.

So the short of it is: I was born in 1985 and I was surrendered to adoption as an infant. I was three days old and I was placed into foster care for a short period of time. And at about four-and-a-half months old, my adoptive parents became my new foster parents, essentially. And then I was legally adopted the following year in New Jersey. And they raised me from four-and-a-half months old.

So I… It was a closed adoption and I grew up not knowing what I wanted to do with my life. And I had a friend who wanted to be a nurse, so I'm like, I'm gonna go to nursing school. I don't know why I picked that, but I went to the same college she did, and it was deciding that I didn't want to be a nurse that really threw me for a tailspin.

And people kept saying to me, “You should be a social worker because you are adopted. And social workers really helped you make your life just so wonderful.” And even when I was not ready to talk about adoption, I was not ready to talk about any of the new nuances or loss or grief about adoption; even then, I really did not like that. I didn't like the idea that I was going to make someone else's life be like mine, because that's not nice or respectful, and my life was not perfect. And so I always just–I specifically never looked into social work, because I didn't understand all that social workers do.

I didn't know that a lot of adoption workers actually are not trained; they're not social workers. So that is a difference there. And I just went in the complete opposite direction, until I wanted to work with older adults. And then I learned more. I met social workers who weren't adoption workers, and I realized that the values of the profession aligned with my own.

And at that same time, I had my firstborn child and I wanted to learn more about my background and history–lots of family of origin stuff. When you're going through social work education, it makes you very interested. And that adoption was not something that I was going to touch as part of my education, but your social work professors make you. They make you pull in painful parts of yourself so that you deal with them, because they can't come out in your client work later.

Your work as a social worker cannot be about you. And I became very much more comfortable with it. And I went into therapy based on the feedback of my professors–that's what I would be good at. And they directed me towards a school where I could specialize in clinical social work for my master's degree and that is the whole….

I reunited when I was 25, so that was part of it. But social work was… I processed all of that, my reunion, everything throughout my social work education, which was, really, it was–A lot of people don't get that kind of support, so that was a saving grace for me.

Haley Radke: Wow, that's amazing. There's a lot of layers there.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes.

Haley Radke: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. Stephanie, how about you?

Stephanie Oyler: My adoption story began when I was two weeks old and I was removed from my first mother and placed into foster care. At that point, it was considered respite care; I wasn't actually put into the foster care system.

Once they realized that was probably gonna be a more long-term situation, I was formally changed to foster care and was in a couple of different placements. And then, around my first birthday, I was placed with my adoptive parents (who were at that time fostering me). And then I was adopted right before my fourth birthday. So I was with them.

I actually had a lot of struggles growing up adopted. I didn't really put it all together as that really being the cause of it until I was an adult and in school for social work and really seeing how that connected to all the different struggles I had growing up. I had a lot of identity issues, so I hadn't really connected the dots of being adopted and how that played into all the struggles growing up. I really struggled with identity. I'm also a transracial adoptee, so there was a lot of layers of that piece. And my parents had the colorblind mentality, which just made it really hard to fit in, just because I stuck out so much in the family that I didn't look like.

So there was just a lot of different things. So at 17, I moved out and I went on a little soul searching mission, went to different places, and eventually I got pregnant and had my daughter. And I think that is when I really realized that I wanted to go back for social work, or I wanted to go to school for social work (not really go back). But I never really had a clear picture of what I wanted to do. But when I had my daughter, I realized just the connection that I have with her, and just realizing how much I missed out on that. I ended up going for my associate's degree and then transferring into a bachelor's program for my master’s, or for my social work degree. And then moving on into my master's level courses.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much. So, with that being said, you guys are experienced in adoptee things (just because we are all adoptees), but you also have this extra layer of having your master's in social work. And I know both of you do different things in Adoption Land, but what brings us to our conversation today is some very challenging things that you both have experienced: some losses.

Who wants to share first about that?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Our losses that we are focusing on together for the purpose of this content we're building together over time, and we're gonna talk about on our own channels and is about the constant concept of mother loss. And that is something that we–it dawned on both of us at the same time from talking…

Stephanie lost her first mother recently, just before I lost my adoptive mother. Both deaths were sudden. And we were both put in the position of being the next of kin, to handling the affairs, and the end of life decisions when we (legally) really weren't. And one of the realizations that we have is that we will (because we're adopted), we will lose more than one mother more than one time throughout our lifetime.

Both of us have been a part of that adoptee movement that has focused on that compassion and empathy for children. When they are so little, they can't cognitively really understand what's going on, but they very much experience the loss of their parents. In attachment theory, the foundations of attachment theory, always focused on the mother, like the significance of that. Whoever gave birth, that relationship is foundational for the family and a person going forward.

And so in that kind of vein, and because adoptees tend to also focus on their mothers a lot as well. We were focusing specifically more on the mother relationship (not in intentional exclusion of anybody else). And so we lost our original mothers, our first mothers when we were kids, and then many of us (Stephanie and I included) lost foster mothers that some of them we may or may not remember. And then we see adoption as like this celebration and common adoption culture as, “Oh, you finally gain your forever family,” and the losses should stop, right? But they don't, because now we have to lose mothers again as adults, which isn't paid attention to at all.

Both of us do a lot of diving into research and literature, and it's not really (except anecdotally), it's not really spoken about at all. What happens when I reunite with my first mother and she dies? Or, What happens with–now I have to lose my adoptive mother when she dies? The losses continue to accumulate.

And developmentally, there's not a lot of theory about what happens to people when they have to lose a mother multiple times and multiple times in that way. It's not–it's just not part of our normative trajectory when we talk about adult development. And so that is… Since both of us had that experience recently and not being able to find much about it, but having a lot to say about it…

That is one of our really strong topics of interest right now and we're also finding that a lot of people are like, “Yeah, tell me! What is it? I wanna hear it, cuz I can't find it either. And I also just lost my mom.” So…

Haley Radke: Let me just say how sorry I am for your losses and...I don't know. I think there's that extra layer, right? When it's unexpected and in a tragic circumstance. And then you mentioned, Amanda, that you guys were both called upon for some responsibilities that you weren't necessarily expecting. Stephanie, do you wanna touch on that?

What were you asked to do when your first mother passed that maybe you weren't necessarily expected or expecting to be called on to do?

Stephanie Oyler: A little backstory. I reunited with my first mother when I was 18, but it wasn't really physically; it wasn't in person. It was more like phone calls, and letters, and things like that. I'd say the last five or six years, I really started visiting her more.

She didn't have a family. She lived in a group home setting. She had treatment teams and case managers, and she had actually aged out of the child welfare system herself. So she really had no family. And so when I finished school, I really wanted to provide her with a family and be there in a way that she never really had. So I started going to her treatment team meetings and I started visiting her regularly.

My children met her. My husband met her. We did our best to include her in just everything that we were doing. And so, I think at that time I was in constant communication with her peer support specialist. And I was at work one day, and I got a frantic call from her saying that, “You need to come to the hospital. Somebody has to sign paperwork and there's nobody to sign,” (because the agency and her case manager could not sign it). There was nobody to sign a power of attorney type thing.

I rushed out; I went to the hospital. And I had signed the paperwork, and then I was put into this position of, now I'm dealing with the doctors and I'm talking with them. And I'm all of a sudden making all of these decisions that I would've never thought in a million years I would be doing. Because I mean, I knew her, but I didn't know her history. I didn't know her medical background. So I–there was a lot of imposter syndrome. When I'm speaking to the doctors, I felt, Am I allowed to do this? It was a lot of feelings at the time, but I got put into the role of just making all of those decisions.

And then, eventually, I had to make the decision of whether to remove the life support, because she was not ever going to come out of what she was in (which I did). And then I was put into the position of, Okay, now you are in charge of all of the arrangements and all this stuff afterwards (which once again, I didn't even think about, because I'd never been in this position to even understand). So then, I started doing all of that stuff and it just was overwhelming. There was really no help and I didn't have support. So that's just the gist of where I came into play with that.

Haley Radke: That does sound overwhelming. Can you just (I don't know if you're comfortable sharing this), but how were you feeling during that time?

Were you like, actually in the moment experiencing things? Or were you in this state of shock and just going, Okay, I think I need to do this next. I think I…, more like just going through the motions?

Stephanie Oyler: Yeah, I think I was in shock. I tend to get into this professional mode. And I think sometimes I did that a lot with my first mother, just because it was easier to keep myself separated at times (if I went into professional), which is why I really wanted to be on her treatment team. And I really wanted to help in that sense.

So when I got the call, I really did–I was shocked. I was like–They basically told me she was gonna die if I did not come to the hospital at that exact moment. So I was like, Okay, time to get it down. I'm rushing from work. I go to the hospital and I sign the paperwork and yeah, I just–I think it was like just going through the motions at that point.

I didn't even realize what I was doing. I think when she passed away, that was the point where I was like, I just…The last few weeks were just so rapid and chaotic that at that point I was just like, inundated with all the emotion. Just with making the decision and then being left there to sit with it (if that makes sense).

Haley Radke: And your loss, too, of your mother, Amanda, was unexpected in a different way and very sudden. Do you mind sharing about that and also some of the things that were just going through your head when that was all happening? Because I think we might have this idea like, “Well, if we can sort of mentally prepare ourselves for at some point in the future, we'll sort of have this hat on, then we'll be ready for whatever comes what–no matter how shocking it is.” I don't know if that's even possible.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Definitely not. I don't think it's possible, at least not for me. And I do feel–I have always felt prepared for death in a general sense of: I've worked in a nursing home that had palliative care. I worked in hospice as a social worker. I am very supportive of the death positivity movement and have consumed a lot of that literature and material, just because I find it interesting having to also support people through death as a therapist.

And so I do think that I'm more prepared than most people, but not as prepared as I thought that I was. And of course the issue with my mom really blew that wide open. I was teaching. I teach college classes, and that includes high school kids that are eligible for college classes, as well as main campus classes. So I bring psychology and sociology classes to high schools because not all the kids have licenses. This is a program that my college really wants to expand. So they were there that day taking my picture for a local magazine. I didn't know that they were coming and they walk in… (fortunately, I brushed my hair pretty good that day).

They're like, “Okay, can you erase Stanley Milgram off the dry erase board and put something more pleasant?” We're setting all this up and my phone is ringing and it's on mute or whatever. It's on vibrate, but it's still out of control (you know, when your phone's on vibrate and you don't wanna receive calls, then the vibration might as well be as loud as the ring). So my phone was going nonstop and I'm like a p– cuz my director's there with the photographer with the reporter. All of the students like…, and I'm just like, “My phone does not normally ring while I'm teaching. I am so sorry.” So I'm like, “I turned my phone off.” I'm so angry and just trying to keep my job. So after that, I forgot that my phone was off and I'm driving to main campus to teach another psychology class there. And I had turned it back on and I had all these missed calls and I'm like, Oh my gosh, what student loan thing didn't I pay? (Cuz that’s usually what it is).

Or, What did my child do at school, anyway? But I noticed that the Caller ID said Florida, and I remembered that my parents were on vacation in Florida (or they were heading down there). And I'm like, I bet you they’ve arrived there. I guess I should... And then I realized (cuz I didn't realize before), that I had a voicemail and so on this voicemail is a chap— there's several messages from a chaplain saying, “Amanda, your parents have been involved in a very serious accident. We need you to call immediately. Please call us right away.” And there were multiple messages to that effect.

So I called. I believe the chaplain's name was Scott, and I reached him and he said something… I don't even know exactly what it was, and it may have just been–he may have very well said, “We have a concern about your mom, but your dad seems to be okay.” Like he may have said that, but whatever it is he did say, I remember that my mind was: Both of my parents are dead. That is what I heard. And so I just–I was shocked having to lose both of my parents at the same time.

And then the chaplain said, “ Let me see if your dad's awake.” And I was like, Oh, okay. All right. There's hope. Wait, what? My dad didn't want to talk to me. And he probably had a concussion (I realize now), but immediately, I'm like, I'm being rejected. That was really hard for me. And I also know that my dad would probably do something like that.

I'm telling myself this in this moment: He would do something like that because he wants me to focus on my mom. He doesn't wanna consume any time or energy that could be spent on her, because he's always okay. And so these are the things that I'm telling myself. I'm trying to get information from the chaplain about my mom and he said, “She's not here. She went to another hospital.” And when he told me the name (and I've also worked in hospital systems and emergency rooms)--

When he told me the name of the hospital, I was very concerned, because it was not an advanced trauma level hospital. And so if someone's being taken there, they either have very little chance (and they're just going there to be stabilized, potentially because it's the closest), or they're going there because they have a few scratches. It's either one or the other. And so the thoughts that things are not okay continued. So I did get a hold of– That hospital had not called me and I got a hold of them.

And they put me on the phone with a surgeon and he said that they had operated on her. “She's in surgery right now,” and he's just telling me every gruesome detail that you could imagine. Like, he was describing that they think she hit her head (which could be the main problem), but there's internal bleeding that they need to stabilize. And then he was just describing her limb injuries (that even if they stabilized her brain, even if they stabilized the internal bleeding, she's gonna have to deal with horrible injuries to all of her limbs). And I'm just…

And I'm like, He's explaining it in this way to me for a reason, because the feeling that I got from it was that her dying might be a saving grace (in a way), because otherwise she's gonna suffer for the rest of her life, (which is what I picked up it that he might be trying to communicate to me in a very weird, clinical, “doctorly” way). So they didn't ask me to consent to anything at all, and technically my dad is the next kin (whether or not you would consider him incapacitated or not, I don't know). But he basically said, “Just don't expect her to make it.” And that was the end of that.

So I said, “Okay, thank you for your time. Please go back in the operating room and save her.” So now I'm like– I'm driving home. I told my students, “I gotta go.” They're like, “Are you okay?” I'm like, “No.” (But I am laughing cuz I'm uncomfortable). ”But it is. I've gotta go do something. So you guys are good. Everybody gets an A! I gotta go. Don't worry.” Like the students always panic if they're gonna, if I cancel class, if they have–if they get marked down for anything. And I'm like, “Nope, you're good.” So I go home. I'm feeling horrible for my students. And my husband got me the next, very next flight out of Baltimore to go down.

The doctor had told me, “Just go to your dad, cuz there's no hope here.” Cuz they were in, they were like three hours apart, the hospitals. And so I decided to go to my dad and as I was packing up, I got a call from the hospital, telling me that they are now transferring my mom. I was like, “I was told my mom was gonna die.” And the registrar (who really just wants consent to transfer and the insurance information) is like, “Apparently, she's a fighter!”

I'm like, so awkward. It's just so awkward. I'm like, “Yes she is. Okay. So she's being transferred to this hospital. Okay.” So, that hospital was also really far away from my dad. So I consented to that. They were gonna airlift her; I gave them all the information that I could, and then I got on the plane. I paid for the service on the plane where you can text from the plane, and so I'm texting various relatives. I'm letting my dad's job know, I'm letting people…(I don't know why, like I just felt the need to do something, to be productive on this airplane).

And that was a really awkward experience that we could also probably talk about, like at some point: how people react when you tell them bad news like this. I felt from some people that I was almost…They couldn't accept that I was telling them that my mom was probably gonna die and my dad almost died.

And so they almost interrogated me (like I didn't know what I was talking about), and that happened multiple times: “No, no, no. What do you mean that she's gonna die? Who told you that?” And I'm just like, “No, what I need from you right now–I need to let you know not to call either of them. And my dad's not gonna be at work on Monday or Tuesday.” So, anyway, I don't know if that happened to Stephanie or not, but anyway, that's just a very weird part of being the person who has to tell.

Texting back and forth with my aunts and uncles who were in Florida, because they live there, and my aunt says, “Your cousin's picking you up from the airport.” And that was unexpected, because I was going to– Now, I was gonna go to my mom and I was Ubering there, so I didn't understand that. And so the thought in my head was, My mom died, because otherwise, my cousin would be at the hospital with my mom. Like, Why is she…?

And my aunt– I texted back and I said, “She's dead, isn't she?” And my aunt's like, “I'm not texting you back about this.” Like just…, and I'm like, “Okay.” So I texted my cousin, I'm like, “She died, didn't she?” I am not the type of person that..., I don't like surprises. I don't wanna wait an hour to find out.

And my cousin was like, “We can talk about things when you get here.” Neither one of them wanted to be in a place to give news like that through a text. And I understand that, but that's just not what I needed, because what ended up happening was I got off the plane and the police department called me.

And on the other end of the phone, was a sobbing police officer. And he said, “I am so sorry. My mom also just died in a car accident. I'm an Iraq veteran and I've seen a lot of terrible things in my life. And this brought me right back to being in that desperation, and wanting to save somebody that you care about (or someone else cares about). I did CPR on her, and I tried so hard, and I'm so sorry.” And he's crying, so now I knew she died. Like she was pronounced–What happened was, she was pronounced dead at the scene and they brought her back at the hospital. So he didn't know that they had brought her back; he just thought that she, they had…

She had coded at the scene. I don't wanna say they pronounced her, but she was pulseless at the scene, and he did not think– he already had thought that I already knew. And I didn't say… I just thanked him. I was there for him. I listened to him. I comforted him. I told him I was sorry for his mother's loss, but now I knew, and it was a police officer that told me. It wasn't my own family.

So then I did see my cousin at the airport, who picked me up, and she did. And the first thing she said to me was, “I didn't wanna text you that.” I'm like, “Yeah, I already texted myself that in my mind, so too late. But I get it.” So they took me to see my dad, cuz I didn't wanna see my mom. I didn't. She was already gone; I didn't want to. I've had OCD my whole life and a lot of that is very imagery in my mind, and I don't want that image stuck in my head repeatedly. So I opted not to go see her. But I had to be the one that told my dad, because he was not being kept updated at all.

So that was awful having to tell him. And as we entered, we approached the room (my cousin and I). And I said, “My dad, I don't think he knows how to do ‘sad.’ He knows how to do ‘angry.’ So when I tell him he may yell and kick me out, and you have to be okay with that. You can't defend me, cuz it's not about me. It'll be fine.” But he didn't; he cried. And that's the fourth time I've ever seen my dad cry in my whole life. So that's the whole kind of the tale of losing my mom.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. Stephanie, did you have any similar experiences? I know that you said your first mother didn't really have connections, which is why you ended up doing some of those decision making things at the end.

What about telling friends or family of yours that you were going through this? Did you share it with anyone? Did you keep it private? What was that like for you?

Stephanie Oyler: In the beginning, I kept it private from friends. I did tell my adoptive mother when she was in the hospital and sick, just because I have a younger sister, who was also adopted with me. She was adopted after I was adopted, but we have the same mother.

We handle adoption differently. She was not really involved and did not have a relationship with my mom, but I still wanted to keep her updated on what was happening. So in that sense, yes, I did tell them. But when my mom passed away, that was like a very different level of interaction with people, because nobody really knew how to address, how to even speak to me. “Are you sad? I mean, she didn't raise you.” And that was really like the overall–and people even asked me, they were like, “How should I react?” Some, I think a couple of people actually asked that.

And it was really hard because I didn't feel like I got the recognition that I feel like I should have gotten with it because people just didn't– In their mind, they were like, She wasn't really your mom, she didn't raise you, so it's probably not as bad.

And I got that from my adoptive family, as well, to an extent. And there was a lot of emotions, and probably a lot of things that were said that really hurt me. And I just had to step back from a couple of people, just because they weren't willing to see that this was very hurtful.

And I had a relationship with my mom for 12 years and was very interactive with her. I mean, my kids were at the hospital with me when I had to make the decision. So it was really difficult and I didn't get–I didn't really get any condolences that you would think. So...

Haley Radke: I'm sorry that you went through that. And we've actually talked about grief before on the Healing Series, and we've really dug into disenfranchised grief, which is really what Stephanie's kind of explaining to us. It's like, you're not getting the casseroles after a funeral. You're not–and people are just saying, “Oh, really?” That’s so–Ugh. Yikes.

And Amanda, you were saying that you were sort of having to explain things to people? You were getting interrogated. It's very interesting, like the different reactions. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with those really (oh my goodness!) life-altering is not really an overstatement. I think that's really accurate in this circumstance.

So thank you so much for sharing those things deeply personal and I hope it'll really be helpful for our listeners. I really want to continue this conversation, because you guys are also trained therapists and so you have another whole lens to look at your experiences through. So we're gonna come back and do that next week. But for now, why don't you share where we can connect with you online. And Stephanie, why don't you share first.

Stephanie Oyler: I just launched my business, Adoptee LIT llc.com. It is a consulting business for adoptive parents, mentoring for adoptees, and then it's gonna have an education piece with trainings, and webinars, and stuff like that.

You can find me there. I also have a blog (which if you go on my main website, there's a link to that as well).

Haley Radke: Perfect, and I think you've got links for social media as well on adopteelitllc.com. And Amanda, how about you?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: I am on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. (I’m trying to think of where else…) So most of my handles at most social media places is @AmandaTDA (for Declassified Adoptee), I think except for my Facebook page (which is just The Declassified Adoptee). But all of my social media is linked at my website. So I have amandawoolston.com and also declassifiedadoptee.com.

Haley Radke: Perfect. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you for having us.

Stephanie Oyler: Thank you.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: This is great. Thank you so much for starting. This is the start of our journey talking about mother loss. So you are the first–we're gonna take a lot of the things that we uncovered today through your questions to help develop the rest of what we want to teach people about these experiences. So thank you so much.

Stephanie Oyler: Yeah. Thank you.

Haley Radke: Okay. So I think that was very powerful. I'm so grateful to Amanda and Stephanie for sharing their stories with us, and next week we look at mother loss with their therapist lenses on and we learn some lessons from them–things that they have taken away during their grieving process, things they feel that the adoptee community really needs to be aware of, and it's just all super duper important.

I shared off-mic with Amanda, the impact that her work has had on me over the last number of years. You guys probably already know Amanda's work over at The Declassified Adoptee and (of course) she started the well, well-beloved Lost Daughters’ website. So those are some resources that you definitely should be checking out.

And I'm so excited for Stephanie with her new endeavors. Make sure you go and give her a follow as well links to all of their contact info will be over in the show notes.

I'm just so glad to be back. Can't wait to start podcasting weekly again. It is my joy to be able to bring you this content, without which I wouldn't be able to do this, without my monthly Patreon supporters. So thank you so much.

If you have signed up, adopteeson.com/partner has details of how you can access the other weekly show I do: Adoptees Off Script and we are talking a lot about adoptee-written books over there. We are also doing some semi-regular Zoom calls with members of the Patreon community and there's also a secret Facebook group.

Basically, there's a lot of stuff over there (a lot of content). And it's been really beautiful to see how people have been supporting each other, even behind the scenes, connecting through direct messages. And they'll find each other in the Facebook group and say, “Oh, I have a situation like that.” And then they take their friendship off to the DMs. So you can have personal conversations with someone else who's experienced what you're going through.

Anyway, I am so grateful for you. Thank you. I wouldn't be able to do the show without you. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details, if you are wanting to sign up for that.

And another amazing way to support the show (totally for free), is to just share this episode with a friend. Sometimes people don't know how to listen to podcasts, but you do, because you're listening right now. So you could share this with a friend that you know is adopted and maybe has lost someone close to them.

And this–they might find this conversation inspiring and hopeful, knowing that they're not alone. And yeah! Thank you for the way you share the show. I appreciate you. Thanks so much for chatting with me. It's been so long, I forget what my sign off is. How about this? Let's talk again next Friday.

147 Anissa and Adoptees For Justice

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/147


Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Episode 147, Anissa. I'm your host, Haley Radke.

Welcome. I'm so glad you're here. Today's show is a very important one. We are talking about the issue of adoptees without citizenship today. And if you've listened to Adoptees On for any length of time, you know this is an issue that's been happening for years and years and has just really been called into attention in the last few years.

And so today I am so excited to welcome Adoptees for Justice to the show. We are gonna hear from the executive director and he's gonna teach us a little bit more about this issue. And then we are gonna hear from Anissa, an adoptee who has been deported, and we are gonna hear her full story. [00:01:00] And I encourage you to listen to the whole show because it will have an impact on you.

You can't listen and it not have an impact on you. And we are gonna wrap up and hear how you and I today can make an impact for adoptees who have been affected by not having citizenship. Now, I need to give you some content warnings. This is gonna be a challenging episode to listen to. We talk about sexual abuse.

There is mention and descriptions of domestic violence, and we also talk about suicide a few times. And so if any of those topics are really activating for you or triggering for you, please skip this episode. Make sure you're listening in a safe headspace because we really go there and talk about some really hard things today.

So with all that being [00:02:00] said, I'm really pleased that we are able to tackle this conversation and bring it to light and I challenge you to do the things that are recommended to us at the end. Because if one of us is suffering, aren't we all? I'm really honored that I'm able to bring you this story today and it's representative of many.

Well, let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Kristopher Larson, the Executive Director of Adoptees for Justice. Welcome, Kristopher.

Kristopher Larsen: Hi. Thank you for having me on.

Haley Radke: I'm really excited to talk to you today because there is some really important work that your organization is doing, and I'd love to give you a chance to just kind of talk a little bit about what Adoptees for Justice is doing and why it was created and just the issues that you guys are dealing with right now.

Kristopher Larsen: Yeah, so Adoptees for Justice [00:03:00] officially started in November, 2018. A lot of us that are part of the organization have been part of other organizations doing the citizenship work for adoptees. And when I talk about citizenship work for adoptees, that basically means intercountry adoptees that were adopted by US families, but for some reason didn't receive US citizenship.

As we know, the 2000 Child Citizenship Act granted automatic citizenship for those individuals that were adopted and that came in on IR-3 visas, which meant that the adoption was finalized in the home country. Those that came over on IR-4 visas into the US received automatic permanent residency, but would qualify for automatic citizenship once their adoption was finalized before they were 18 in the US.

Now, one of the things with that law is that it actually excludes anybody that has been [00:04:00] adopted but did not get adopted coming in on an adoption visa, I guess you could call it, because there's only two specific types of visas geared towards adoption. And that's the IR-3 and IR-4. And they also have an iteration of the H version.

In other words, if they were part of the Hague Adoption Convention. But we have people that came in on student visas, which is a non-immigrating visa. They would not qualify. We had people that come in on humanitarian visas. Those do not qualify because none of those are adoption visas that are specific to the IR-3s and IR-4s.

So one of the things that we wanted to do is go back and change that law so that it granted all intercountry adoptees a right to citizenship and this is a right that they should have when they're a child and when that adoption is finalized. One of the issues that we face, like I said, is that we also have individuals that have been deported.

Some have been deported of crime and some have been deported because there [00:05:00] is a simple little mistake on their paperwork. And it's a sad fact but these are the individuals that had actually received citizenship, but got it taken away because of a paperwork issue.

Haley Radke: So how many adoptees would you say are affected by this?

Kristopher Larsen: So one of the issues is that there's no accurate data out there. But we do have some data from the Korean government because they require adoption agencies to report back on the kids that have received citizenship. And so the Korean government has about 18,000 individuals that they cannot verify.

So it's possible that they don't have citizenship. But then when that's only one country, when we look at all the countries, it's estimated about 55,000 individuals did not receive citizenship through this.

Haley Radke: So you were talking about there's adoptees who could have had a mistake in their paperwork and so the citizenship wasn't like [00:06:00] officially rubber-stamped and got deported, and also adoptees who might have committed a crime of some kind and they were deported.

How many are we talking about here? Like how big is this issue?

Kristopher Larsen: So we have been able to verify about 50 deportees. A couple have already passed away because of certain situations where they're at. Here in the US, and that's the other thing that is not kept accurate. When somebody is deported, there is no checkbox that said, were you an adoptee? So it's extremely difficult.

Haley Radke: And so we're talking about people that were born in a different country, adopted to the US, and deported back to a country that they have no connection with except that they were born there.

Kristopher Larsen: Yes. And the thing is we also have to remember that these are individuals that were adopted by US citizen families. [00:07:00] They're also adoptees that came in on valid visas. So everything was there except for the automatic portion of citizenship.

And you have to understand that even though the individuals came here as children, they will lose any knowledge basically of where they were born, their culture, ethnicity, language, for instance. And the thing is a majority of the people that are adopted are adopted into, I guess you could say, Christian White families.

If you look at my case, I was adopted into a phenomenal family. It couldn't have gotten any better. All my family are blonde-haired, blue-eyed Norwegians. And so I kind of stuck out like a sore thumb everywhere we went. But I always tried to fit in, it was to a point to where I kind of denied that I was even Asian because I didn't wanna be Asian. [00:08:00]

I wanted to be the white kid. I wanted to be their child. And so even though I came to the US and didn't speak English as a child, I soon learned to forget my native language. And so that's all I speak now is English. I currently have an order for deportation because of an issue in the paperwork that was done by INS at the time. And, and they have verified that. But the fact that if I'm deported to Vietnam, I don't know the language, I don't know the culture, and I definitely don't look like a Vietnamese person. So it's very hard to assimilate.

Haley Radke: One case I know of is an adoptee that was deported and later died by suicide because of the immense impact this had on him. I mean, I just picture, you know, talking to listeners, just picture yourself getting dropped off in this country that you were born in. That's the only known connection. It's just horrendous. [00:09:00]

Kristopher Larsen: Yeah. That's an extremely difficult thing to deal with because I work with a lot of the deportees right now, and I don't think there has ever been a time where somebody hasn't talked about suicide, and it's really tough because, like I said, they're in a country that they don't get services from.

There is no service for somebody that's been deported, especially somebody that doesn't speak the language. It's difficult for them to even get work papers to be able to work. The citizens of those countries don't view them, the adoptee, as a citizen because they view them as being American.

Haley Radke: And are they technically a citizen of the other country or are they without a country?

Kristopher Larsen: That depends. South Korea has been giving citizenship back to adoptees but, for instance, we have a deportee in Panama where they don't, they are citizenship-less [00:10:00] because they're not considered a citizen of Panama.

Same with people from Ethiopia or Costa Rica. So it makes it very difficult.

Haley Radke: Shocking. Okay. Well we're gonna pause there and we're going to hear from an adoptee that this has impacted, and then we're gonna come back with Kristopher and he's gonna tell us a little bit more about how you can get involved and what you can do to help fix this massive issue.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Anissa Druesedow. Welcome, Anissa.

Anissa: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Haley Radke: My honor. I'm hopeful our internet connection is gonna keep up with us. Fingers crossed, toes crossed, note for the audio. We're doing that. But I would love it if you would start the way we always do. And would you share some of your story with us?

Anissa: Absolutely. I, as you stated, my name is Anissa. I was born in Jamaica. [00:11:00] And I was raised by my maternal grandmother until she passed away from uterine cancer. So after that, my biological mother moved my sister and myself here to Panama, central America, because my grandfather is a Jamaican, and he came over to work on the canal when the canal was being built way, way, way back then.

He was, I think, one of the only, or a few, a handful of black tugboat drivers that worked in the canal as a tugboat driver. So my biological mother was born here in Panama, and I was born in Jamaica when she was there for a period of time. According to her now, she said that my grandmother wanted to go back to Jamaica to die.

She didn't wanna have a hysterectomy 'cause she said she wouldn't be a woman. So that was the mentality back then. And so they went to [00:12:00] Jamaica. My sister and I were born there. And then after my grandmother passed, I'm not sure about the ages and things like that because I didn't know my birthday until after my adoption.

So all of that is really fuzzy. So I would say at five, six, my biological mother then brought us from Jamaica to Panama. She liked to party, liked to do drugs. At that point in time, the military base was here and, you know, it was party everywhere. So she fell in love with a soldier, an American soldier.

And she left and went to the United States and she left us with my grandfather. He had a lover and she had two male sons for my grandfather, and she had another one that wasn't my grandfather, but she left us then with this woman and these three men where we stayed and soon after that they started sexually [00:13:00] molesting my sister and I.

So then I told my grandfather, and, you know, back then it wasn't a popular thing to even speak or think about. So he beat me not believing that one of his sons and all three of them were sexually molesting us. So we were placed in an orphanage. And my biological mother, Beverly, we'll call her that from here on out, was in the US and, you know, she was living her life.

And we were in an orphanage. So we were there. I am not sure if it's for four or five years that we were in the orphanage, but it was long, but not long compared to, you know, a lifetime, I guess. And we had always had a lot of US military support bringing us food and things like that. And also, they would take us out for weekends and take us for holidays.

[00:14:00] A lot of times we got taken to families’ homes to spend, you know, whatever holiday it was with them. So I was in school once and I came home, and my sister was gone, and I was like, Where is my sister? And they said, oh, she went out with a family there. Before this, there was a black family that wanted to adopt us, but my family is black and they thought that we would do better with a white family.

So they didn't allow the adoption to go through. And so this was a white family and they thought that we would be better suited in a white family because of our complexion. And then, you know, they started doing the process. They found out she had a sister and they didn't wanna split up the sister.

So they were like, okay, we'll take the sister too. My father was a sergeant major in the Army. And we lived at a base called Fort Clayton. [00:15:00] It was the best thing that ever happened. You know, we had food, we didn't have lice or parasites. And, you know, when you're adopted at nine, 10, you remember it.

So you remember the bad and you can appreciate the good. So it was something that was very, very, very good. I had, you know, American siblings and when the Americans would come to the orphanage, they would always have nice cars. They always brought food. So you think they're rich. So I wanna go to America where everybody is rich.

And so that dream came true. We were picked up and taken home. We had water, hot water, air conditioner, which we never had before. So it was all like, just wonderful. I tried to fit in as much as I could with my sister that's a year older than me. I wanted to be as American as she was. And you know, we just started living as a normal family.

[00:16:00] A couple years after that, of course, we struggled with the education and the school and the language and everything like that.

Haley Radke: Was that in the States or was this still in Panama on the base.

Anissa: This was still in Panama on the military base.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Anissa: Yeah, because the military base had their schools and they had everything. It was just like a little American city stuck in a third-world country. So then my father got his military orders for us to go back to the US. And I didn't understand how that was all gonna happen, but people showed up.

You know, my mom, she is a very organized, very on top of everything kind of person. She packed everything up. We got boxes, you know, we packed everything up and they came and picked up the boxes, and we then went to a guest house to stay the rest of the time. Our household goods left first, and then we went to a guest house.

It was like staying in a hotel. It was wonderful. [00:17:00] And then we went to the airport and flew backwards all the way to the US. I remember we had a Barbie and I lost the Barbie’s shoe on the plane. And that was my big memory of going to the US. And so we got to the US, we landed in, I believe, South Carolina. I knew none of this before all of this happened.

I mean, I had to get all my records and everything for me to be able to try to get the help that I'm trying to get now. So we landed in South Carolina. We stayed in North Carolina at my parents' military friend's house for a while, and then we went to Indiana and my parents are originally from Indiana, Roanoke, and from Fort Worth.

So we were there, we got to meet our extended family and we had an uncle that had a dairy farm and I [00:18:00] remember the cows, the cats, and I just loved my Uncle Bobby and that life and the country. You know, just everything so open and free and you're not fearful of anything. You know, you can be a kid.

So that was my huge memory from that time. So then my dad got orders to be stationed at Seneca Army Depot, that's upstate New York in Romulus, New York. And we started going to school where I'm in the central school. Everybody was just living their life. I was playing gym one day in gym class and a classmate of mine kicked the ball.

So I jumped up and I caught the ball and when I came down, my leg gave out and I fell. So then after that I was limping 'cause it kind of felt weaker. And so I limped and, when I got home, I told my parents what had happened. And we just had a small clinic on the Seneca Army Depot. [00:19:00] So they took us there, they did x-rays and everything like that.

And they said, oh, it's just a pulled muscle, you know, it's just calcium deposits. And then they kept saying like little things like that. I did therapy for probably like three to four months, but because I'm adopted, we didn't know my family history, medical history. With 20/20 hindsight in 2020: my biological family is infested, cancer is like something that everybody dies from, and we didn't know it back then.

So, for the last X-ray that was done there was a military X-ray tech. I had a crush on him, that's how I remember these details. And he looked at my parents and he said something is very wrong here. And you know, this is 1984-85, somewhere around there. So we didn't have the technology [00:20:00] and he said, something is very wrong here.

Something else has to be going on because my calf, instead of getting better, it got bigger. So they sent us about 1-2 hours away to get a CAT scan. And once I got the CAT scan, they said it was cancer and they needed to do a biopsy. So when we drove back to the town where we lived, the Seneca Army Depot medical coordinator, or I don't know, you know, I don't know. Those parts were handled by my parents. It was cancer and it was pretty aggressive for the time it had grown. So that night I had to go to Geneva General Hospital to be admitted and for a biopsy to happen the following morning.

So we went in for the biopsy. They confirmed that it was cancer. Didn't know the type or anything like that. But my father being in the military, we were then flown to Washington DC to Walter Reed Military Hospital, Army Medical [00:21:00] Hospital, I forget the title, I think they've changed it now to Walter Reed in DC, for me to have more tests done to see how they could save my leg.

Months after that. I mean, my father and I literally lived in the hospital, in Walter Reed in DC, while my mother was back in Romulus, New York with the rest of the kids. Because they have four biological kids and adopted three. So she had six kids to deal with back in Romulus, and my dad and I were in Walter Reed. After doing all these tests and everything, they decided that my cancer was extremely aggressive, already too grown, all of the muscle mass and the arteries and everything were going through it. They gave it a name, synovial cell sarcoma.

And they decided that I either had to have extreme surgery, the leg would be very deformed, or an amputation. After they found out and gave the name, they [00:22:00] said that it's too aggressive of a cancer and wasn't something that they saw in teenagers very often, more like in retired Olympic participants of an older age and everything like that.

So they decided in order not to take any risks that they would amputate three inches above the knee. And so, a day or two before my father's birthday, we went through the amputation and it was horrible. But at the same time, I still felt like it was gonna be okay. I was in the States, I had parents, everybody was taking care of me and you know, that was gonna be okay.

So it wasn't as traumatic because I'm comparing it to worse trauma, I guess. And that's the way that I've always tried to survive things by comparing it to something worse. You know, I guess that's part of the don't be ungrateful brand that I had put into my head. [00:23:00] So I was grateful yet that I had parents still, I had food, I had medical care, and I was gonna be okay.

So the amputation happened, and then we had to go down to San Antonio, Texas, to Fort Sam Houston for my chemo and radiation treatment. And we were there for two years. I had my portacath placed, we started going through chemotherapy radiation. I would shut down because I was already taught not to talk about unpleasant things.

So I would have therapists come and talk to me, and I would not wanna tell them anything because, you know, the first time that I had a therapist talk to me, they went and told my parents everything I said. So I didn't trust that. So I developed different ways of dealing with things that aren't very good, I guess you could say.

[00:24:00] I planned how I was gonna kill myself because I didn't want to be this person. I didn't wanna be who I was. I didn't wanna hide all of the stuff that I was feeling and, you know, nobody to go to. But I really didn't know how to go about it. So, you know, I developed self-hate.

I look almost identical to my biological mother, who I hated for everything that we went through. The sexual molestation didn't only come from my uncle, it came from her boyfriends while we were with her. So, at this point in time, I lost my leg and I had so much going on. As a teenager, you want a boyfriend, you wanna go to the prom.

We weren't popular at Romulus when we first got there because it was majority whites. And so, you know, we got [00:25:00] called all of that stuff. And I didn't understand that because in the country that I came from, there is racism, but it's more like economical discrimination more than racism. So then I started meeting people of other color, not a lot of people.

I had one really good friend, her name was Tina, and she started to explain to me what was happening. So then I started becoming angry about that. And you know, the Blacks didn't accept me because of my skin tone. And the whites said, well, she's light-skinned, but not one of us. So it was hard for us to blend in.

After I lost my leg, though, I became somewhat of a celebrity because once I lost my leg and I was going through all of this hospitalization and everything, they did fundraisers and things like that. So when I got done with my chemo in San Antonio, we went back up to the town where we were originally from.

And when I went to [00:26:00] school, everybody kind of knew about me. You know, the kid that lost their leg and stuff like that. So I was more accepted then. And so then people started including me in things. And, you know, my father was in the volunteer fire department and things like that, so things kind of got a little better for us after that.

I overheard my mother telling my psychiatrist that came and saw me, but for her not to have to clean up my vomit and everything, they would like sedate me, but my sedation wasn't complete. Like I could hear things going on in the room and I could feel when they would inject. There was one medication that was red and it would burn really bad when it went into your body and it would give you a bad taste in your mouth.

And my psychiatrist was there and she started talking to my mother. And my mother told her that she felt like it was my fault that I got cancer. And because she thought that, she [00:27:00] felt like I had done it for attention. And then the psychiatrist was like, you know, that's not possible, right? But I shared that with you to give you the idea of where the rest of the story is gonna go.

So we went back to Romulus. I got a boyfriend. I was engaged to a boy that was half Vietnamese and half American. And his mother hated me. She wanted him to have a white woman and not me. So they did everything possible to try to make sure that didn't happen.

So after graduation, like a few days after, they moved away to Alaska. He sent me a ring from Alaska. I was engaged to him there. And then soon after that he broke up when he went to college and found somebody else. So then the pressure became you have to find somebody to help you afford your prosthetic leg because your insurance is running out.

[00:28:00] You're 18 and this and that. So I had that in my mind. I had like a ticker. So I got a job. I was a manager at McDonald's. That's not anything to write home about, but I met a gentleman, he was in the military and I thought that this was not my get outta jail free card, but you know, just like, hey, this guy's in the military. For me, I grew up very attracted to men in the military because of my father.

My father never abused me. He never touched me. He was a man that I really looked up to and, you know, when I was a kid and he put that uniform on, there was nothing that he couldn't do. So with that psychology, I met this guy, he was in the US Army, and I wanted to be a military wife.

My goal before then was to be in the military like my father, but after I lost my leg that, you know, was [00:29:00] not just put on the back burner, but totally out of the picture. So I said, okay, I'll be a military wife. I can do this, I can travel around the world and, you know, this and that. And so we married.

And that was my first husband, my daughter's biological father. And I thought that this was it. We started having domestic violence issues. I was a raging lunatic. I'm not gonna blame him a hundred percent because I had all of these issues, rejection, trauma, and everything inside of me. So the littlest thing that he would do, he would think it was funny to come at me.

And my automatic mechanism was to shiver. So he would do things like that and, you know, I would like psychologically lose it. And so we were very physically abusive to one another. [00:30:00] I told my mom, you know, I can't do this. I'm about to have a baby. And she told me, Anissa, nobody's gonna want you. You have one leg and you're gonna have a kid. Who's gonna take care of you?

So I moved to Puerto Rico with him. He hit me in Puerto Rico again. I had some friends in upstate New York that I went to school with. They bought a plane ticket for me to come back, and then he called and he cried. And the thing with men crying, it has like a soft spot for me because I only saw my dad cry one time.

And that was when I was told that I was having my leg amputated. So, to me, when I see a man cry, I kind of believe him. So he called me and he was crying. He wanted to be a family. I told him, okay, come back. We'll work things out. He came back. Things were good for a while, you know. Now, all these years after, I understand about the honeymoon period and all of that stuff.

So we had a long honeymoon period [00:31:00] because it was right before I gave birth. I gave birth in October and I had a baby girl. She's my life, she's my life. She's my lifeline. You know, after I had her, I went to my six-month appointment. He had already cheated on me. I told him, well, my friends wanted me to go out with them and I said, watch Vanessa. I wanna go out with my friends.

So we went down to the club and, you know, when you have to get up at six in the morning, it's not the same as before when you would get up at nine or whatever time you wanted. Then you can hang out all night. And I was exhausted. So I had like maybe a couple hours out and I fell asleep literally on the bar.

And my friends were like, oh, we gotta take you home. So I went home and when I got home, I caught him. I either caught him in the process of or caught him in the planning stage of what [00:32:00] he was doing. I'm not sure what it was. But I came to the house and he swore that I wasn't at the bar. He swore that I had been at some man's house.

He swore that I was up to no good. And I was like, look, you know, I can't, I don't wanna argue about this. I'm very exhausted. And I wanted to go check on my daughter and I wanted to go to sleep 'cause I was exhausted. And so I was going up the steps and I have to go up them one by one 'cause I have one leg.

And he shoved by me and beat me to the top of the steps. And he wouldn't let me go by unless I told him where I was. And I told him I was at the bar with the girls and I said, I'm just tired. I fell asleep on the bar and I just wanna come home. I wanna look at Vanessa, I wanna take my shower and I wanna go lay down.

And he said, no, you're not gonna have me look like an idiot. And so by this time I am trying to push my [00:33:00] way with my body weight. And he is, what? 6 foot, 6’ 1” maybe. I'm 5’9”, 5’10”. So, you know, it's not that much of a difference. And I'm thinking I can push by him. I'm thinking when I get up there, I can get by him.

The last thing I remember was feeling my body like lose weight. And he pushed me down the flight of steps. I woke up in the emergency room with my daughter in a carrier next to me. And that's when I said, once I gained my thoughts and everything, this is it. So I went ahead. I got an order of restraint.

I got our things out of the house. We were in a shelter for a week or two until we found our own place. We found a studio apartment for my daughter and I to live in, and I started my role as a single mother. So [00:34:00] I started working, babysitting kids at night when their parents were working the graveyard shift and things like that.

Just things to be able to make ends meet. And it just never seemed to make ends meet. But, you know, I was doing everything that I could think of. My job was always to the point where I made just enough not to get any help from the government, but not enough to cover everything. And I started to see patterns of people that were, you know, on welfare or living in government housing.

And I didn't want that for Vanessa. And my whole goal was to always protect her, for her not to go hungry, for her not to be sexually abused, for her not to have any kind of, I guess, trauma or anything like that, as much as I could help it. So there began that rat race, you know, trying to cover this, trying to cover that.

I went to school to be a dental assistant and [00:35:00] I really enjoyed that, but I realized that I could not survive on that. So then I decided I was gonna go to be a hygienist because I became good friends with a hygienist. And then I couldn't stop working and go to school with a child, you know? And so I decided that I couldn't do it just yet.

Let's wait until she gets into school and is a little more independent. I didn't have that support system, like the ability to move home or anything like that, because I was always told I made my bed. I have to lay in it by leaving my husband. So I left him and I kept, you know, doing whatever I could. Then she started Head Start. I don't know if you know what Head Start is?

Haley Radke: It's like a preschool program, right?

Anissa: Yeah. Right. So then she started doing that, [00:36:00] and so I started picking up classes and doing things here and there, trying to get myself together. And then she started going to school where it was more full-time. I started looking at my options.

I decided that I didn't wanna be helping a doctor. I got stuck with a dirty needle twice. This was right before AIDS started coming out. So it was kind of scary that I would have that risk of a dentist handing me the needle back and getting stuck with a needle that was really, really dirty.

So, I didn't wanna do that. So I then decided that I wanted to go back to school in the medical field. I went to Phoenix, Arizona. I started going to school there. I went to PIMA Medical Institute and I decided I'm gonna be a physician's assistant. And I didn't like Arizona. I want trees, I want grass, I want seasons.

[00:37:00] There are people that either love Arizona or hate it because the yards are rocks and sand and

Haley Radke: The one thing I know about Arizona is that sometimes in the summer, like you can't get cold water out of your water tap because the pipes are hot. That's what I know about Arizona.

Anissa: That is correct. I met a lot of good people in Arizona that I'm still friends with, too, to this day. I learned a lot, but if you're a person that likes the outdoors, Arizona is probably not it unless you like heat. Now I don't, I don't like heat. I am an upstate New York girl. I love the snow. I love the cold.

You know, I learned to ski, all of that stuff. And being there with rocks and peppercorn trees is not my idea of a good time. I was never able to afford to go out to Flagstaff [00:38:00] and ski. I heard that it was nice skiing up there, but I never was able to do that.

So I went there. My biological mother was living in Glendale. I lived in Chandler. My biological sister, she had found her and gave her my information. I started trying to develop a relationship with her, but that never could be. Ever. I mean, I have tried 13 times to not have a mother/daughter relationship. A lot of adoptees in reunion– that ship kind of has sailed and we're just looking for basically a friendship and if it develops to more than that, wonderful.

But if not, we're happy with being friends. So I just wanted to be friends with her and she just can't forgive herself. And I kind of understand her mentality today because I beat myself up a lot for what has happened with, you know, me and my daughter. But at the same time, I can't take it out on her. And, you know, why take it out on myself? [00:39:00] I already take out enough things on myself. So I tried to develop a relationship with her. It didn't work.

I did my internship at a clinic there in Tempe. I then went back to New York. And I tried to find work in the medical field. And a lot of work in the medical field wasn't paying yet what I was able to make soldering and assembling at a factory.

And that was one of the jobs that I had before I started going to school. And I loved to do things with my hands, solder, you know, do things like that. So I was making more in a factory than I was in the medical field, and I was fine with that. Although frowned upon by my parents, it was something that paid the bills and it was something that I enjoyed.

And I'm still thinking that I'm gonna go up to Syracuse to get into their physician's assistance program to be a physician's assistant because I love the medical field. So I couldn't [00:40:00] do that because financially that wasn't possible and I already had student loans, so I am repaying student loans.

I'm trying to find out how I am going to be a physician's assistant. You know, how I'm gonna work that out. I got a second job at another factory and I left the one that I was at to do wire harnesses at another one. By this time, Vanessa is already ten, eleven-ish, somewhere around there. We'd had many dollar store Christmases, and we've had Christmases where, you know, there was nothing.

So I decided that this year I'm gonna get a second job just for the holiday season. So I went and I got a job at a retail store. I'm working at this retail store just for Christmas 2003. Because my car wasn't working. The money I was making wasn't good enough to cover everything. And you know, when you live up north, I don't know if [00:41:00] you know or not, but the electric, the heating bill is high and you kind of try to keep up the payments on it for it not to get turned off, but then you still have a balance at the end of the season.

So I'm like trying to catch up on all of these things and provide a good Christmas for my daughter. A friend of mine came into the store and she said, hey, I have some things that I purchased. I purchased it on this credit card. Can you take it back? I lost the receipt. And since it was a holiday gig and, you know, you're not really invested in that position or anything like that. So I don't care, bring it in. So then she did it not once, maybe two or three times.

But when you say yes the first time, it's hard to say no after that. So I did it. My job was over. I went home, it's 2004. Early part of 2004, the sheriffs came knocking on my door. They [00:42:00] said, we wanna speak to Anissa Druesedow. I said, I am Anissa Druesedow. And they said, did you work at this store? And I said, yes. And they said, from this time to that time? And I said, yes. And they said, do you know this person? And I said, yes.

And they said, did you do this? Did you do that? And I said, well, I did this. I didn't do that. Whenever you're dealing with like the criminal system, it seems like they try to stick in as much as you can to get you to plead guilty to as much as you can. And I'm like, no, I didn't do that. I didn't do that.

After a while, I looked on my schedule and I saw that I wasn't working on some of these days. And in the cash register there's two receipts, one that stays with the store and the other one that you would give to the customer. Sometimes we would run out of them and use a thinner one that didn't have numbers on them.

So I was like, I can't say which ones I did and [00:43:00] which ones I didn't, because these numbers are not enough for the number on the receipt. And there were just like a lot of things we went back and forth on. So then the sheriff called me and said, can you come down? We need to talk to you.

I said, okay. I called my neighbor 'cause I think that we're still going through this, you know, trying to cipher things out. And I think that after all of this is said and done, that it's gonna be fine. So I called my neighbor and I said, hey, can you keep an eye on Vanessa for me? She's at home. I have to go down and talk to the sheriff.

They said, okay. So I went down to talk to the sheriffs and they arrested me. Of course, I didn't go down with the lawyer. I never consulted a lawyer because I didn't have money to pay for a lawyer and I didn't have that kind of mentality that I needed a lawyer. So they arrested me for a whole bunch of charges.

I can't even go into all of them. I don't remember them. And they locked me up and they didn't give me bail because they said that I was [00:44:00] a threat to run away or escape threat or something like that. And I was like, where am I gonna run to? This is where I've lived my whole life. Well, you're from Jamaica.

I said, yeah, I was born there, but I was adopted to the US, and then once a judge heard the story and everything, he gave me bail. My full-time job at that time bailed me out. And I got out. My sister had my daughter, I got my daughter. I started going back to work and, you know, trying to find out, figure out what I'm gonna do.

I have a public defendant. The public defendant comes to me and says, they're offering you four to 12. And I'm like, four to 12? And I didn't know this at the time, but I guess that's their little tactic. Their little scare tactic. They work with the DA and everything like that. And he said, yeah, four to 12.

I said, I can't accept four to 12. My co-defendant has six months of weekends, and [00:45:00] I'm gonna accept a four to 12? No. So then he goes, well, let me go back and see what they say. So then he came back and he said, they'll give you one to three. I said, one to three years in prison. Why can't I get weekends, six months of weekends?

Because then I could have my sister watch my daughter while I, you know, paid the price for this horrible thing that I did, right? So he was like, well, this is a better deal than six months in jail, six months of weekends in jail. And I said, how so? He said, well, your full-time job bailed you out, so let's talk to them and see if they'll give you a letter.

If they give you a letter, you'll be out on work release in a month and a half. And I was like, really? He goes, yeah, so you can just go away for a month and a half, read some books, relax, and then come home. And I'm like, okay. I went to my job and they said, yeah, we will give you a letter for you to come back. That's not a problem.

So they gave me the letter, [00:46:00] I gave the letter to the lawyer. I went in, I pled guilty to grand larceny, falsifying business records to the tune of less than $4,000, 3,000 and something. Of course, in my mind, I'm the biggest criminal that ever walked the face of this earth. It wasn't until I got processed that I realized that my sentence was like ridiculous for the crime.

Everybody that I was locked up with had like hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they had the same sentence that I did. But again, I didn't know. I couldn't afford a lawyer and I didn't know any better. So I went and pled guilty.

Nobody ever said to me, Hey Anissa, if you plead guilty to this, you face a risk of being deported. And I was fine with it. I was gonna go up for a month and a half and I'll be home, you know, pick up my life and try to lead it as best as I could after that. So I went up [00:47:00] to Bedford Hills, a maximum security prison for women in New York City.

They had no handicap facility. I had to hop on wet tiles. I fell. They wanted me to squat down and, you know, all of these things. And I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to do that. I broke the law. I'm willing to pay my price, but I didn't have anything to hold onto. I had not even a grab bar or anything.

So I'm like, this really stinks. I hope this gets better soon. But I went into my mind that had already been in an institution. So I just locked down, became, you know, not combative at all. Whatever they said I did, even if I fell on the shower floor that was filthy and I wanted to cry afterwards. But I just did what I needed to do.

So now they've processed me and they told me that I'm gonna go to Albion, another women's prison, but this one is [00:48:00] closer to where I live. So my whole goal was to get closer to home, to maybe see my family, maybe see my kid, you know, whatever. So I'm sitting there waiting for our pack out day.

They say Ripley, that was my name, that's my married name, my first husband. They said, Ripley, you have visitors. And I'm like, in New York City? I don't know anybody in New York City. And so I got escorted down to the visiting area and there were three gentlemen there, all of them big, you know, cop-looking like, but they didn't have uniforms on. They had like khaki pants or something like that if I remember correctly.

And they introduced themselves and said that they were from ICE. And I was like, in my mind, the only ICE I knew about was the one in the freezer. I had no idea. And then they explained to me, I was like, ICE what? And they were like, immigration, you know, they [00:49:00] named off the whole big name.

And I was like, okay. So I'm like, what do these guys want? So they started asking me, what border did you come in? And I was like, I don't know. And they, how did you get here? I said, my parents brought me here. What country are you from? I said, well, I'm from Panama. I was born in Jamaica, but I was adopted in Panama.

And oh, your parents are adopted? I said, yeah, my parents are adopted. My father was in the military. We came in on military orders and yeah, why? And they were like, what language do you speak? And I was like, English and a little bit of Spanish. You know when you don't use it, you lose it. And I lived upstate New York where my Spanish was very limited.

I used to help Puerto Ricans and Dominicans with their welfare, filling out their welfare papers for them. But I didn't speak it fluently by any stretch of the imagination. And they're like, yeah, you don't sound Spanish. You don't sound Jamaican either. And I was like, yeah, because, I'm sorry, I don't know what to [00:50:00] tell you. I'm adopted.

And one of the rules at my house was when we were adopted, we were not able to speak Spanish. My sister and I could not speak anything but English because if we wanted to be Americans, we had to learn the language. So they were like, oh, so you're adopted and okay, we'll check into it and we'll get back to you.

And I was like, I thought, okay, I missed a bullet. So I went back to my cell, it came time for us to be taken from New York City to Albion. While I was at Albion, they called my name for mail and I got an order of deportation, and I was like, an order of deportation? As soon as we were let go, I went to the phone and I called my parents, and I told my mom. I said, I have an order of deportation. What is this about?

And she was like, I don't know. If you hadn't gotten in trouble, you wouldn't be in this [00:51:00] position. And I'm like, wow, okay. I'm like, am I going to be deported? What is happening here? I mean, I didn't choose to come here, I didn't not do paperwork. As far as I'm concerned, there was apple pie and then me. I mean, I am as American as I could get in my head, right?

And I was like, what are you talking about? And then she's like, I don't know, I have to call and I have to talk to a lawyer. And I'm like, okay, so they're gonna talk to a lawyer and this is all gonna be ironed out. So then I was able to call once a week to my parents because of the cost and everything.

So the following week I called and I was like, did you talk to a lawyer? She says, yes, I talked to a lawyer and the lawyer said that we could get in trouble for human trafficking for doing this. And then she kept talking about how had I not broken the law, [00:52:00] how had I not done this and how had I not, you know, always shifting the blame, and okay, I am willing to take the blame for my part in it, but you know, I cannot be deported.

Where am I gonna be deported? Jamaica? I left there when I was what age? In Panama I have nothing. Where are you deporting me to? So the following week I called my parents and they wouldn't answer the phone. I kept trying to call every day when I was able to, when the phones were free, I'd go and call. They wouldn't answer the phone.

And I was like, what's happening? So my mother started to do things that she used to do to my other sister. My daughter would write me a letter saying that she had fallen asleep and that my mother had grabbed her by her hair to wake her up, to pull her off the couch. And those are things that she would do [00:53:00] to my sister. So I didn't think that they were lies.

So then I got in touch with my biological sister that lived in Florida, and I asked her to please get Vanessa, because I didn't want Vanessa to go through that treatment that I had already seen. My sister was not my mom's favorite by any stretch of the imagination. And she ended up running away after there was an incident where she was made to come downstairs and just like a teenager, she dropped her books on the table and that pushed my mom over the edge.

My mom jumped on her and started ripping handfuls of hair out of her head. And my other sister jumped on my mom and grabbed her and held her down, and my sister ran out of the house and never came back again. And you know, she cut all ties to them and everything like that. And she wasn't really [00:54:00] close to anybody in the family, but she stepped up to the plate and helped me with my daughter in the meantime.

So my daughter had to go from New York to Miami, and I had already done the year for New York State. New York State didn't want me in their custody anymore and I had an immigration hold. I couldn't do anything. So then they took me back up to Bedford Hill, and then at Bedford Hill, they said, here is your Greyhound ticket.

ICE has until this time to come pick you up. And if they don't come pick you up, we take you to the Greyhound bus station and you have to be in Rochester checking in with your parole officer tomorrow. At this time you have to go and do this for work release. And you know, they give you the whole rundown like you're getting sent home.

So I'm sitting in a cell sweating, hoping that ICE doesn't come and show up. And about five minutes before the time that they were supposed to let me go, they said, Ripley, ICE is here for [00:55:00] you, get dressed. So I got dressed and ICE took me over to New Jersey, to Hudson County jail. At first, they had me in general population, but because of my leg and everything, I couldn't stay in those small cells.

So then they took me down to the infirmary. In the infirmary, I was locked in 23 hours a day. I was out one hour. And by this time I had two 401ks and I cashed out one of them and hired a lawyer. Her name is Monica Reed. And Monica Reed kept assuring me, you're not gonna get deported. This is illegal what they're doing to you. We're gonna get you out. You're gonna be fine. You know?

And I believed her wholeheartedly because how can you deport an adopted person? You know? You pull somebody outta their culture, erase all of their culture, reprogram them with the culture, take them in when they're kids and they're nice and cute, but then when they're [00:56:00] adults and they make mistakes or whatever, then you send them back to the orphanage?

You know, that was always a fear as a child, that I better behave and I better be good and I better be grateful, or else I might get sent back to the orphanage. And I didn't wanna do that. And here I was an adult facing that possibility. And it was something that I could not wrap my head around in no shape or form.

So they have me in the basement of Hudson County jail. Sewage backs up. I have to be taken out and put into the box, where like really bad inmates go, because they don't have anywhere else to put me. And then I get put back into the infirmary. And then one day I went to court and they told me my lawyer passed away from an asthma attack.

And I'm like, my lawyer passed away from an asthma attack? Excuse me? Come again? So the judge gave me three weeks [00:57:00] to decide what I was gonna do, if I was going to hire another attorney or if I was going to sign and leave. And I had one more 401k. And I'm like, I gotta cash this 401k and I gotta get a lawyer.

So when you get done with immigration court, they put you in a holding cell. So that was my plan in the holding cell. I gotta cash this 401k and I have to get another lawyer 'cause I cannot be sent back to where my uncles might be. They might kill me or whatever. I can't go to Jamaica where I don't know anything except for what you and I see on postcards or the ads on the TV for you to go to the island.

I don't know anything. And when I used to tell people that I was born in Jamaica, they were like, do you smoke weed? I'm like, no. And you don't talk like a Jamaican, you're not a Jamaican. So this is my mind that nobody's gonna ever see me as a Jamaican. [00:58:00] So I was like, yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.

On my way back, I had already been transported back and forth enough to where the guards didn't feel threatened by me. They stopped putting shackles on me because I have one leg. Where am I gonna run? I'm not running anywhere. So then, you know, they got cool with me and they would like buy me sandwiches from McDonald's, Burger King, whatever.

So on my way home, this one ICE officer, he was like, so Rip, what you gonna do? And I'm like, well, I gotta get back to the cell. I gotta get back on the phone. I gotta find somebody that's gonna help me get my 401k and I've gotta hire a lawyer. And he is like, Ripley, wait, you don't get mail? Nobody comes to visit you? You are not the first adoptee that's been through here, and you're not gonna be the last adoptee.

He goes, can I give you my two cents? And I said, sure. He said, it will be best for you to go get your 401k while you're out and fight [00:59:00] this from the outside instead of wasting your money on another lawyer. Because who's gonna help you if you get deported and you have no money? I was like, I don't know.

I have to think about it because by this time my parents weren't having anything to do with me. My sister and I have a bad relationship because, you know, she left and I stayed at the house, and then I get the brunt of staying and siding with the people that abused her. And to this day, we don't have a relationship, just to give you an idea.

And so, my other sisters? Letters? Nothing. So I went back to my cell and I was thinking about it and I said, it's true, who is going to help me if I'm deported? I don't get care packages; I don't get anything. So, you know, I [01:00:00] had already come to terms with me being on my own. So I called and I said, I wanna be deported.

So a couple weeks went by, at three o'clock in the morning the metal door slams open, I'm half asleep. They have flashlights on them. They have flashlights mounted to them, and they come in and they throw you a bag with some clothes in it, and they say, get dressed. You're gonna be deported to a lifetime vacation.

And I'm like, I'm leaving? Can I make a phone call? They're like, no. You can't make a phone call. Nobody can know that you're leaving. Okay? So I got dressed. They took us to JFK and we were all in this van. I think I was the only woman. The rest of them were men. And when our times came up, they would take us up and put us on the plane. [01:01:00]

And my time came up, they took me to the, to the gate,

and I walked onto the plane.

That was the

biggest psychological screw that I've ever had in my life. I'm leaving the country that I call home. I'm going to a country I don't know. And I can't believe that what I have done would, I would deserve such a thing. And that a whole country that I love and that a whole country that I thought was mine was kicking me out.

You know, a whole country didn't want me there. And so I got on a plane and they flew me into Kingston. I was supposed to go to Montego Bay because that's where I was born. But either way, had I landed in either one, I was just as [01:02:00] lost. I could have landed in China and it would've had the same effect. So I landed in Kingston, They took me off the plane.

I was walking with the people. I thought I was normal by now, and they were like, no, come this way. So I got taken into an office and then questioned for hours. You know, you're Jamaican, you're this person because I only had a handwritten birth certificate. That's the only thing that I had, a handwritten birth certificate.

And I'm like, yeah, that's me. And I had to explain to them the whole story about, you know, how I was born here, taken to Panama, adopted by the US. I committed a crime; I was deported here. And they're like, you don't speak Patois? I said, no, I don't. He goes, where are you gonna stay? I said, I have no idea. You guys accepted me here. [01:03:00]

You guys never knew anything about this? I mean, did you see my picture that I'm a light complexioned person? Did you see? You're not black? No, I'm not black. You know, all of these questions. I finally said, so why did you bend over to the US government and take me if you didn't think that I was Jamaican?

So when I started getting aggressive and when I started using words that you reserve for certain times, they were like, okay, go. So they let me out. It was night. They let me out and I wanted to go back into the room. There was a row of taxi drivers and they were all screaming about what they were gonna do to me, how they were gonna do it to me, the amount of time that they were gonna do it to me.

And they started calling me “browning,” which now I know that's what they call people of my complexion. And I was like totally [01:04:00] freaked out that these grown men that were just a sidewalk space away from me were doing all of this. My prosthetic leg was broken and there was one older gentleman that was just sitting on the trunk of his car and since he wasn't screaming anything at me, I felt like I could approach him.

And I said, can I please borrow your phone to call so that somebody can come pick me up, or so that people know where I'm at? He says, how much money do you have? I said, I have no money. I said, I have no money. I just have what I'm wearing. That's all I have. And he said, you're deported? And I said, yeah. He said, why they deport to Jamaica?

I said, I'm from Jamaica, and here goes the whole story again. Well, I was born blah, blah, blah. And so I finally convinced him that it'll only be one minute. So I called a woman back in the US. I told her I was [01:05:00] in Jamaica, but I was in Kingston. I had nothing. And she was like, can you go to a nearby government facility?

Because you know, people think as they do in the US where you can go to places and get help. And I'm like, I can't see anything but there's darkness and some lights in the parking lot. I don't know where to go. And she was like, sit still. Stay at the airport. Don't leave the airport. They called some people from Montego Bay that were in the church and they came and they picked me up and took me to Montego Bay.

My biological mother by this time has found one of her sisters that lives on the island and she was supposed to come pick me up. I was with these people from church for four days. She did not wanna come pick me up because her husband didn't want a white woman in her house, in his house.

But I didn't have any place else to go. I had that trauma of being locked up. So I would stay in the room, locked in the room. And finally they talked me into [01:06:00] coming out more and coming out more. And they told us about that when we were in prison, but I didn't really believe it. I was like, if I have the choice to leave, you know, an open door, I am walking out of it.

But all of that became reality. And I was really a mess for those four days. And I was a worse mess when my aunt told me that this man didn't want me in his house 'cause I still hadn't gotten my money from my 401k to even rent a room. It was, I mean, I, I can't even put it into words.

So she said, this is what we have to do. He goes to bed, he's a mechanic. He works until this time; he goes to bed at this time. You have to stay in the park here, and then we can go up to the house and then you can go in. You have to wait till he leaves. He leaves at this time, and then you can leave when you can come down.

So I got my 401k. She asked me to borrow some money [01:07:00] because in her mind I'm a rich American, not a handicapped grown woman, a niece of hers that was adopted. There's no kind of connection there. I mean, you know, you see your aunt, she gives you a hug. There's nothing, it's like I'm another woman on the streets.

And I, and growing up, seeing that with my family, I always wanted that warmth or that, you know, something that made you feel that you can hang on to, you know, as an adoptee that was adopted, you know, at a certain age, it's hard to build those kinds of relationships, but you hold onto what little you can get. There was nothing there.

So she asked me to borrow some money. She never paid me back. I rented a room. Vanessa came to Jamaica. I had to pretend like everything was gonna be okay. I couldn't freak out, you know, I couldn't. I couldn't show what was happening inside me on the outside because now I had to be a strong mom for Vanessa again.

So we were there and we were running outta money fast because my [01:08:00] rice cooking skills were not, I couldn't cook rice. It's an embarrassment to say, but we're a potato, pasta kind of people. We don't, I don't know how to cook Jamaican food. I like the flavor. Sometimes it's a little too much.

Sometimes I want my potatoes and gravy with my roast, my pork chop. So I would go to the store and I would buy mac and cheese that would cost 8 dollars. But I didn't know how else to survive. Sometimes I would buy food from the woman that cooked in the front, but I was kind of sketchy because of my medical background. I could see maybe health issues with their cooking set-up, you know? So I was like scared. I would go eat at McDonald's or KFC, but that was extremely expensive and I was [01:09:00] running outta money fast. So I knew I had papers for Panama. And I quickly saw that I couldn't be a nurse. I wasn't gonna be a teacher, and I wasn't gonna be a tour guide. Back in that time those were the careers of choice for a lot of women and I didn't have any papers or anything that I completed, anything.

I had a handwritten birth certificate and they gave me hell for that when I went and tried to get my IDs. They actually didn't really wanna give me a passport, so I was like, let me go to Panama. Plug in Panama City. Panama. I saw that the jobs there were a lot of call center jobs for the US so it was English speaking and they were paying, you know, like two dollars and something, which I couldn't get my head to understand. I was like, this must be something messed up in the ad.

I said, well, Vanessa, we are gonna go to Panama. She's [01:10:00] like, Panama? I dunno how to speak Spanish. I was like, it's okay, we'll learn. So I used my last $2,000 to buy a ticket and to pay to get to Kingston to fly out to come to Panama City. By this time my biological mother had voluntarily deported from the US and she was here in Panama.

And I thought, okay, maybe we can have a relationship. We can help each other. I just wanna, you know, be with her for a while, get myself on my feet and then get away from her because I know she's not a good person for me. So while I was in Jamaica, I was there for nine months, I met a gentleman. I asked him out to pizza.

He said he liked me. I said, well, don't get too attached 'cause I'm not gonna be staying here. I'm gonna be leaving and going to Panama. And he goes, can I go with you? And I said, sure, you can go with me. He goes, but I don't speak Spanish. I say, well, all three of us can learn. So [01:11:00] he asked me to marry him. November of 2006, I said yes.

In December of 2006, Vanessa and I flew to Panama. My biological mother met us at the airport. In February of 2007 he came from Jamaica to Panama and we got married in February of 2007 here in Panama. And while we were living with my mother, my biological mother, she became very jealous of my daughter.

I couldn't show my daughter a lot of attention. She would slam doors. She would tell Vanessa to shut up. She would tell me that she doesn't wanna hear her voice. It makes her sick. And I finally said to her, so, what do you want me to do? You want me to just leave her with somebody or kick her out? Because, I said, she's my daughter. I would give my life for her.

So when I started talking to her like that and shutting her down with her “I hate Vanessa” rhetoric. She told me to get out [01:12:00] again. I didn't know where I was gonna go, but I know that before I caused my daughter more pain, I had to get away from her.

I started working as an interpreter at a call center making $3.47 an hour. Don't ask me how I was interpreting, Haley. I do not know. But you know, they say fake it till you make it. That's exactly what I was doing. I could understand the English speaker perfectly, but the Spanish speaker I could not understand for the life of me, and the speed that they spoke it! It was like, really?

But I found a call center that allowed me to interpret for stateside businesses. They had different levels of interpreting, so I was doing getting your electric turned on, turned off, transferring the services, renting cars, which I did not know how to say, none of those words, but I was not gonna let go of that because the rest of the call [01:13:00] centers were paying $1.75, $2.15 and I couldn't go down. My husband at that time didn't have a work permit. He had no papers.

I didn't know what was gonna happen. I mean, it was like just kicking and moving my arms to keep afloat. I didn't know what was gonna happen. Then this woman tells me I have to get out. So back in the day, you buy a newspaper. And you go and you open the newspaper to the classified ads and you find a place you wanna live that you can afford, you go look at it.

If it's good, you, you take it. If it's not, you keep looking. That's what I was doing here in Panama. I found a place that was for rent in a town called Veracruz for the price of $250, which I thought, $250 is a good price. I am not thinking my wage level. I am thinking US wage level.

So I didn't have any paperwork for my daughter's school. I had to put her in private school. [01:14:00] Private school is you have to pay for everything, books, lunches, uniforms, socks, even gym clothes, everything. It was $174 a month. And it got to be too much. We spoke to the landlord. The landlord said, yeah, he would help us out, knock it down to $150 to try to get us some financial assistance.

So we were living there. For the first few months that we were there, our sewage would run in the ditch in front of us. We had boils. Vanessa and I were covered in boils. It was a nightmare, but I had to smile the whole time and make sure Vanessa knew that it was okay and that we were gonna make it. We found another house that was much better, in a better place.

And the person that had the house became friends with my husband and he was going back to the States. So he let us rent it for the same price, [01:15:00] although it was bigger. And each one of us had our own rooms instead of just being one room with all of us in there. And he sold us a car for $1,500. We paid it off little by little because walking in a prosthetic leg in a tropical country is not fun at all.

You're sitting in a plastic bucket and it's minimum 90°, 91° outside. And I had blisters, bleeding blisters. I had rub marks. My prosthetic leg, in Jamaica I had to go and have it welded by car mechanics because there's no orthopedic legs or anything in Jamaica. Nothing. Everybody there walks around with crutches.

And I was like, why are you guys with crutches? Don't you like your hands? Because when you use crutches, you lose your hands. And there were people there very talented where they were walking just with one crutch and no prosthetic leg, and they were walking smoothly. They didn't even have a limb. I have a limb and I admired them a lot, but there's [01:16:00] no orthopedic clinics, prosthetic leg, nothing.

So when I was in Panama, my leg was worse. And we found some people that, you know, felt probably pity for us, for the three of us. They got us a leg; they bought the leg for me and everything like that. And I had a good leg for a while. And we were just struggling. My husband didn't have the ability to get a job or anything like that.

He didn't speak Spanish. And I really, I guess, downplayed the need to speak Spanish when living in a Spanish country. And, you know, he had to do like little odds and ends jobs where he'd make like $10 or $5, because here they don't wanna pay you. They think, okay, even expats that live here, when I say expats, people from other countries, when they come here, they don't come here and wanna pay.

They wanna pay, you know, less because they're living on a limited budget [01:17:00] and things like that. So he would do these little jobs and people would give him, you know, little change and stuff like that, which was a big help. So Vanessa was going to school, I was working, and one day I said to Vanessa, Vanessa, bring me your notebook so I can see what's going on.

Because it was just, you know, a struggle with her. She was grabbed underneath her uniform skirt, but we were prepared for that 'cause that happened to us when we were kids. So she had on shorts underneath it. And you know, I told her, hit 'em with your backpack. Do whatever you can. They're gonna do this, they're gonna do that.

You know, everything in my experience as a child, and Vanessa was suffering with so much depression she would vomit and have diarrhea before going to school. It was just so much for her. There are no words for everything that she was going through. And I had to pay a tutor. She wanted to charge me $10 an hour. I couldn't afford to pay $10 an hour.

So [01:18:00] I said, okay, we're just gonna do one hour twice a week for her to help you. So this woman wasn't making enough money off of this rich American because everybody saw me as a rich American. And she would not help Vanessa learn. She would do the homework for her.

My daughter has a doctor's handwriting and when I looked at this notebook, I was like, Vanessa, your handwriting is so beautiful. It's in cursive. I can't even do this. Wow. And she's like, mom, I didn't do that. My teacher did it. I was like, what? So I'm paying $174 plus her transportation, plus her uniform and all of this, and you're not learning anything.

And so I spoke it over with a friend of ours here that's an American, that's married to a Panamanian, and I spoke it over with him and he goes, Vanessa's had just turned 17. And he said, have you thought about sending her back to the US for her to get her [01:19:00] GED? Of course I haven't. He said, you should think about it.

Send her back to the US. We can see if we can find somebody she could stay with and

she can get her GED and she can, you know, go on to college or whatever, you know. And at first, the only word that came to my mind was, hell no, I'm not gonna send my only child, the only person I share DNA with. The only thing that slightly resembles me, because throughout all of this, she looks more like, you know, we call him her sperm donor than me, but I can see certain things in her.

And she definitely had my bad attitude. I was like, I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna send her back. So that night I laid in bed and was talking to my husband about it, and he's like, well, I know it's hard for you to think that way, but what is [01:20:00] she gonna achieve here? When she gets outta school, what is she gonna do?

We can't afford for her to go home. She won't be able to pass a test to go in to college. What is she gonna do? End up working at one of these call centers for $200 every two weeks. So then I had to separate the selfish me from what was best for her.

Haley Radke: I'm so sorry.

Anissa: So we pulled all of our money together. My husband sold a couple tools. I think he impounded them. I don't know. He did something with his tools and bought some money. We got her a laptop and we put her on a plane to Salt Lake City, Utah. She lived in a friend's parents' basement.

She went and studied for her GED, passed it. She applied [01:21:00] for a scholarship to a business school. She got accepted into the business school, full scholarship. We just had to pay for her housing and things. And my husband and I went without a lot to make sure that we paid for her housing and her food. And my daughter is so awesome.

She got a job in charge of the dorm. So they gave her free room and we only sent her money because she needed, you know, money to buy her toiletries and things like that. And she finished school and then I said to her, this is very hard for us. I'm giving you two months for you to [01:22:00] get a second job or something because we can't afford to send you this kind of money and you know it.

So she goes, yeah, mom, I know I'm gonna see what I can do. Don't worry. Three weeks after I told her that, she called me and said, you don't have to send me any more money. I got another job.

She had to have her tonsils removed and I wasn't able to be there for her to hold her hand. She's 18, you know, grown and knows everything but still needs her mom when she had surgery. She was working her two jobs and she decided, I'm gonna go back to school. I said, okay, we'll help you with what we can.

We didn't have to send her a lot, we just had to help, you know, make ends meet basically. So we [01:23:00] did that and she finished that school and then she started working in something that she didn't study. And she is like, mom, if I get this job, I'll be able to send you money.

And that's very painful, you know, to have to have my child send me money and she knows that I need the help. So my prosthetic leg again is breaking, and I met a group of adoptees in the States that bought me a prosthetic leg. So I've had this prosthetic leg for a year and some change. My daughter can't afford to come down and see me very often.

We don't have holidays together because we can't afford a thousand and something dollars for her to fly from up north to come down here at peak time. We haven't had holidays together. This year we were supposed to have Christmas in April, but then [01:24:00] COVID happened. She wasn't able to come down. I get to see her every two to three years when we're able to put the money together.

Haley Radke: What would it mean to you to have American citizenship?

Anissa: It would mean being able to have my family back again. On March 8th I watched my oldest sister die of cancer and I had to say goodbye to her through a video call like we're doing now. It would mean being there for my sisters when they go through their issues like they were for me when I went through my cancer. It would mean having Christmas with my daughter.

It would mean a second chance that I believe I deserve. Had I broken the law with one of my siblings, they would be at home while I was here and I should have the same rights that they [01:25:00] have through adoption and I'm not afforded that right. And I feel like I'm still doing time.

I have been robbed at gunpoint here. They took the car; they took everything in it. They left me in a ditch. I have been robbed at knife point because although I'm not an American here, they see me as an American. It would mean living in the culture that I feel and that I, I mean my Spanish, I still have an American accent.

You know, people right away think I'm from the US. A lot of people when they hear me speak English, they're like, oh, you're from New York. You know? I mean, I was taken out of this culture and my culture was erased and I was reprogrammed with another culture. And now I'm not a cute little girl that needed a family. Now I'm a [01:26:00] grown woman that, people don't seem to care about us adults.

I'm not the only one that has been deported. There are many deportees. A lot of them won't come out outta shame, but this is all I have, Haley, and if my story will help, then I have to share it. Yes, I'm not proud to sit here and undress in front of you and your listening audience, but it's the only thing I can do.

And I'm very grateful for Adoptees for Justice because they're fighting and they've given me a voice. I have been on the Hill with them through video. They've helped me so much. We don't have water. They have sent me money to buy a water tank and a water pump. Now I don't have to carry buckets of water to flush my toilet.

[01:27:00] I mean, it's just so much that we would need probably three weeks sitting here of me telling you this for you to understand what it would mean for me to gain my citizenship, for me to gain something that was promised to me when I was adopted. And not only was I adopted, the US military put me on orders and took me to the US. I mean, who do I call to get this fixed? What do I do?

Vanessa has had to go through therapy. Adoptees for Justice is trying to find me some therapy to do because I suffer with depression and suicidal thoughts. Vanessa is the only thing that is keeping me here. But then I think if I'm not here, then she doesn't have to worry about coming here and she doesn't like coming here. She gets anxious. She thinks that they're gonna rob us because our house has been broken into and robbed so many times.

We've just basically given up. [01:28:00] We're living in a different place now. It's closer in town where we have neighbors, but at the house that we lived at, we had been broken into four times. And you know, Vanessa doesn't wanna go out at night here because I was robbed at gunpoint and they took the car and it was night. And all of these things are things that I'm exposing her to living through by having her come back here.

I found my biological father's side through Facebook. They live in Canada and my father passed away while I was looking for them. I still haven't seen a picture of him yet, but I have hope that one day I will. [01:29:00] And I was doing my criminal rehabilitation to be able to go to Canada to meet them because I have four brothers and four sisters in Canada. But this whole COVID thing happened, and the lawyers haven't even answered my emails from them.

So, getting my US citizenship would mean a lot of things. I get to meet my sister, I get to go back to the States and be a part of, you know, if my parents don't wanna have anything to do with me, that's fine, but I still have my siblings and they still consider me their sister and I still consider them my sister, you know, and it would just mean to be able to be a mother to my child.

I don't wanna be a grandmother like this, you know, I don't want anything else to happen. And this is what, this is my, you know, hi, grandma loves you. No. I can't get in the car and drive up and help her on a weekend clean or go to have lunch. I just wanna go have lunch with her or go walk in the park or just spend time with her. You know?

It would mean me having my life back 'cause I really [01:30:00] feel like this is not my life. A lot of times I think I'm gonna wake up, but I can't.

Haley Radke: So, Kristopher Larson, the Executive Director of Adoptees for Justice. He's gonna come back and he is gonna give us a few things that we can do to help you and other adoptees like you.

Before we do that, you know, I just wanna give you one more opportunity. Like, what would you say to someone like me who is in Canada, there's lots of people listening in the United States. Like, what would you hope from us to share your story to impact this injustice for adoptees like yourself who don't have citizenship.

Anissa: Well, I wanna say reach out to your congressman. We need to bring this to light because a lot of people don't know that this is happening. I share this on Facebook and [01:31:00] even my friends on Facebook don't know I'm deported and don't know that I was adopted and didn't know that was possible. I asked them to reach out, send an email, share a post.

If you wanna get more involved, follow Adoptees for Justice on Facebook. They do Hill visits. They will go with you to speak to your Congressman, senator, whoever, they will go with you. You don't have to say a word, you just have to say, this sucks, and I have some people that have some information that you need to hear and I want this changed.

If you don't wanna do any of that, donate. Donate to help people have water, donate to help somebody with a medical bill. Because we're out here, we don't have food stamps, we don't have Medicaid, we don't have medical coverage. I'm a handicapped person and, you know, I'm good with the leg right now, but that came from donation, also my prosthetic leg. [01:32:00]

Just please do something. I mean, if you believe adoption is forever, or at least for this time here in this world, everybody should see this as an injustice. Doesn't matter if I broke the law or not, because biological children break the law all the time and get the second chance. We pay our time; we pay our price. And then we're released back into society hoping that, you know, we've learned a lesson.

So I ask everybody, even in Canada, you know, people in Canada know people in the US, or send an email as a Canadian, hey, I think this sucks, I don't think this is right. And the adoptee community, the domestic adoptees, I guess, I don't see their involvement and they might be involved, but I also ask them to please be involved, you know, help us because at the end of the day, if it affects one adoptee, [01:33:00] it should affect all of us.

I don't want my original birth certificate, but I send emails out to everybody. I go on a VPN and I send emails out for people to be able to access their original birth certificates, their OBCs, because I feel that that should be their right as an adult.

If I had known about cancer when I was a kid, would I have a leg now? You know, I put myself in those positions, so I ask everybody to please do something, and it's surprising the effect. We're seeing this today when we all stand together and when we all let our voices be heard. I'm not saying in a negative way, but in a good way, what can be done.

And I am very hopeful that, you know, once COVID and everything calms down, that we'll be able to get this bill, at least, voted on and passed.

Haley Radke: [01:34:00] I just, I don't even know what to say. I'm so grateful that you are willing to share your story with us. It's so powerful and just heart wrenching and, you know, I thank you for the emotional labor it takes, again, to share your story.

And I'm sure you've told it many times and I know it's gonna touch a lot of people's hearts, so I thank you and I really appreciate your calls to action. We're gonna hear a little bit more from Kristopher now about things we can do to help Adoptees for Justice.

Let's just talk a little bit more about Adoptees for Justice and what are some of the ways people can help. I mean, I think you can understand this is a critical issue. It really needs resolving. Now, I'm in Canada, but I know this impacts so many of my fellow adoptees in the States. And what are some of the ways we can help Adoptees for Justice get citizenship for all adoptees?

Kristopher Larsen: So one of the ways that citizens here can [01:35:00] help is by contacting your congressional member and showing support for the Adoptee Citizenship bill that is there.

Now we have bills in the House and in Congress for this. The best way to get information on this is to visit our website adopteesforjustice.org, which has a plethora of information on the bills themselves. But the key thing is getting constituents to call into those offices to show that support.

Now with our time of COVID, it's been challenging because we have to have a certain amount of co-sponsors to be able to move the bill, and our target number was 60. Going into COVID, I think we were right around 52, but now even during this time of COVID, we're up to 62 co-sponsors for the House, which we're pretty excited about.

We had met with our Senate and our House representatives for this bill, and this is something that they want to push this year to make sure that it gets passed. Next step is it actually working its way [01:36:00] through the immigration and subcommittee, which is where it has stalled before, and having supporters in those committees on the bill, it does make it easy to get through.

So the next step is to have that vote in the judiciary committee, and this is where we need a strong push for individuals to contact the representatives so that they will vote positively for this.

The other things that we also have going on is that we are supporting impacted adoptees. In other words, those adoptees that don't have citizenship and that do not get any type of stimulus during this time of COVID.

One of the reasons why that has been such a huge issue is that if you're a tax paying dollar like everybody else, then you should definitely be receiving that stimulus. But because you don't have your citizenship, then that automatically disqualifies you as a person to receive the stimulus.

Now, where that even affects the family members even more is that if they have a spouse that does qualify, it’s more than likely that spouse now does not qualify [01:37:00] because the adoptee didn't qualify. And so that has a chain reaction on things.

Or the deportees. Like I said, I've been fighting for people that are facing eviction now because they don't have support with people losing their jobs during this. And them not being a citizen of that nation, they're actually at the back of the line to even be able to be qualified to get a job. They don't receive any type of government support in that country itself, and so it makes it a lot more difficult.

But our website does have links on there for you to make a donation. We do have some different donation categories. One of them is a COVID relief fund where that money is specifically going towards helping individuals affected by COVID. We also have a legal fund because we also sponsor people for their citizenship paperwork that need it, that are considered low income, I guess.

And then we also have our operations costs because we do have to spend most of our time in Washington DC [01:38:00] advocating, or we have to fly to different states and meet with representatives in their home states to be able to provide this.

Last year, Adoptees for Justice was able to have 54 different events across the nation to be able to bring support for this bill and to get it to where it is now. And a lot of that was in part because of the donations that we received from members and also from organizations.

Haley Radke: Thanks for sharing that. That's really important to know. I just want your thoughts on this also. Adoptees for Justice seems to me to be very inclusive, and you're talking about citizenship for every single adoptee. No matter what. And my understanding is that there has been a bill or some bills that did not include all adoptees under that.

Can you talk a little bit about why it's so important for you to have this bill, that hopefully will eventually get passed, be inclusive for all adoptees?

Kristopher Larsen: Yeah. [01:39:00] The whole push for inclusion basically stems around the rights of a child, basically. When that child received their family and when they received that finalized order of adoption, right then they should also receive their citizenship.

That way they are granted every right and responsibility as an American citizen, just like a natural born child. When a child is born, they are a citizen. They receive all the rights as all their family members, and same with an adopted child. When a family adopts a child, there is no distinction generally between the natural born child and adopted child.

Like I said, I had three sisters and a brother. And not once have I ever heard them tell people that I was their adoptive brother. My parents never introduced me, this is my adoptive child. Those terms didn't exist because I was their child. Therefore, I should receive the same rights as their children. [01:40:00]

Now, the fact of criminality, people ask, well, why? Why should we let people that have committed crimes back in? It's not that you're letting people who committed crimes back in, you're letting citizens back in because this is something, once again, that they should have received as a child.

If you're a citizen, if your child later on in life, your natural born child later on in life commits a crime, do you deport them? Do you send them somewhere else? No. Once that person fulfills their legal obligations to the court systems, they have that chance to be citizens again. Our judiciary system now labels people coming out of incarceration as returning citizens. These individuals that have been deported should be also labeled as returning citizens 'cause that's exactly what they are.

It's very important that this bill is inclusive because previously it did leave off people that were adopted but didn't come in on adoption visas. One of the things that this bill does is remove the requirements of [01:41:00] having legal, permanent residency status. The requirement is that you came in on a valid visa, whether it's a student visa, humanitarian visas, adoption visas. As long as there's a valid visa and there's a finalized order of adoption, then you should have received your citizenship.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Thank you for educating me and all of us that are listening. I really appreciate that. The best place to find out more information about how you can help is going to adopteesforjustice.org. As Kristopher said earlier, and, you know, we're recording this in the time of COVID, so we mentioned that fundraiser to help adoptees without citizenship to receive some financial aid right now.

And if you're listening in future, I'm sure there's other things that they have put up on their website. Ways you can help, ways you can reach your representatives to really let them know how important this bill is to you. And yeah. I thank you so much, Kristopher, for telling us about this. I really [01:42:00] appreciate your time.

Wow, that was a huge topic. Very heavy. I think there's hope, there's hope at the end of it all, and especially with our action. One of the most moving things Anissa said, I don't know if this really spoke to you too, was how she talked about how she literally gets on a VPN to change her address to being in the United States so she can write in for adoptees to access their original birth certificates.

And I don't know why that was just so moving for me, you know, like she would do that for us. So, you know, isn't it the least we can do for her to write in to our representatives? And you know, even from Canada, I'm thinking about, oh my goodness, what can I do from here? It’s just mind boggling to me that this is still on the table. [01:43:00]

Anyway, usually I do a call to action and I do wanna thank all my monthly supporters, you know, without you, I wouldn't be able to do shows like this and bring up these issues. And so I'm just so grateful to you that you are keeping the show sustainable and going forward, and so thank you.

But today I really, if you do anything, please head over to the Adoptees for Justice website. I will have all of those things linked in the show notes, which you can find on adopteeson.com. And if you just click through on your podcast app, whatever you're listening to, you can find the links right there in your podcast app as well.

And do something that Kristopher challenged us to do, do something Anissa challenged us to do. I think this is a critical issue and just like all the heavy things that are going on right now, it's very easy for us to put our heads in the sand and just [01:44:00] pretend it's not happening and just be like, wow, that was a really sad story, and move on and do something else.

Please don't do that. Please go to their website, figure out who you need to email, who you need to call if you're able to financially donate to support their work, I would encourage you to do that. I just wanna thank Adoptees for Justice for trusting me with Anissa's story and with their organization’s story.

I really hope that our community can make an impact for Anissa and for the other adoptees who are without citizenship. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again soon.