185 [Estrangement Series] Lora K. Joy
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/185
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 185, Lora. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I'm excited to introduce you to Lora K. Joy. This is another installment of the Estrangement Series. Lora tells us how she always knew she didn't fit in with her adoptive parents and how she made promises to herself that she would do things differently. Lora recounts a transformative moment where she grieved her adoption loss that changed everything. We unpack some of the things that led to her estrangement decision.
Again, as in everything during this Estrangement Series, I hope you can use the lens of “would this be helpful to reflect on?” It's not meant in the spirit of “we want you to break up with your adoptive parents.” We wrap up with some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website [00:01:00] adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.
I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Lora K. Joy. Welcome, Lora.
Lora K. Joy: Hi, Haley. I'm so happy to be here.
Haley Radke: I'd love it if you would start by sharing some of your story with us.
Lora K. Joy: I've toggled about how to do this because I am in reunion and so I know what led up to my adoption. So I guess maybe I'll start there. My mother had a child before me. My brother's about three years older than I am and he has Down syndrome. When he was born, his father chose not to be a part of his life. And so then she became pregnant with me and approached my biological father and he also disappeared. He literally walked away. Never saw him again. And so she was then left to be a single parent to, possibly, two children and she wanted to keep me. She tried to keep [00:02:00] me. But she ultimately decided to go to the adoption agency. Her mother actually suggested it because her mother was helping with my brother when my mom was working. And so her mom put that out there because she said she couldn't help with two babies, and especially with one having special needs. So she felt like she didn't have any other choices. She had two fathers walk away and then her mom couldn't help anymore, so she chose adoption. I was born about at least a week late, breech, and had a broken left collarbone as a result. Yeah, it was traumatic. Traumatic beginnings. And went straight from the hospital to a tender care home, which, as I have learned, is basically foster care, but it's a term that my adoption agency used, this tender care home. She did not hold me. She thought it might be [00:03:00] too hard. So I know I went straight to the tender care/foster care home. I was there for five weeks and then I was placed with my adoptive parents. And the files show that the adoption agency tried to reach out to my biological father to have him sign off his paternal rights, but he never did that. So I haven't heard too many people tell their story with this in it, but because he didn't sign off his rights, my adoptive parents had to put an ad in the newspaper for an entire year. And if he had seen the ad, he could have come back and claimed me. But after a year, they were able to finalize the adoption.
Haley Radke: What state was that?
Lora K. Joy: Indiana.
Haley Radke: Okay.
Lora K. Joy: And I was born in 1979. So it's late '70s.
Haley Radke: I've heard of a few different putative father, I don't know, recourses? I have heard of that before but I didn't know what state, and I wonder if there's multiple states that had some [00:04:00] form of notice, in some way.
Lora K. Joy: Yeah, I haven't heard whether people have just not included that as part of their story or not, but yeah, I haven't heard too many people say they had to do that, or their adoptive parents had to do that.
Haley Radke: The ad in the classifieds. Wow, what a depressing section to look through.
Lora K. Joy: Yeah. So I guess I was placed at five weeks and I was raised as an only child. And as this is a part of the Estrangement Series, I will say I always knew I didn't fit in there. And at the same time, never felt like I should search or wanted to search because of that loyalty, I guess, that societal pressure to be loyal and not ungrateful.
Haley Radke: What does it mean to you that you felt like you never fit in there as an only child?
Lora K. Joy: I just always knew I didn't belong there. [00:05:00] My brain didn't work the same way as them. Just thought processes overall, just the way things were done. It just never felt right to me. And my adoptive mother told me that she supposedly told me I was adopted when I was four, but I don't remember that conversation. I remember the next conversation, which was at eight. And so it was definitely after that conversation at age eight that I remember looking around the world and going, This is not what I thought it was. And all these people, how many of these people knew? How many people look at me differently now that I'm looking differently at myself? It was like the matrix fell down around me and my whole world shifted. And then I just had a different filter and just [00:06:00] saw everything through different eyes. That conversation was in the car, without my adoptive father. He actually never spoke with me about my being adopted. And it was, you know, being the late '70s, early '80s, they were told to talk about it whenever the child brings it up. There wasn't the same kind of education there is today. So there is a little bit of grace there, but at the same time, it was like, okay, we had two conversations, between four that I don't remember and eight. And then none ever with my adoptive father. So yeah, she told me in the car. We were just she and I, and I just remember it was supposed to be, like, this is the way it is and that's just how it is sort of a thing. And what she said to me, and she would dispute this, is: "Your birth mother didn't want you, so we got you." And I just remember in that moment thinking, why do I feel so unwanted when you wanted me? [00:07:00] The overwhelming feeling was of being unwanted. And when I addressed this with her years later, she said, Why would I ever say that to you? And I said, I don't know why you would say that to me, but that's how I felt. And I have carried that with me from that moment. It's not as if I made that up. It was a very strong, overwhelming feeling and I remember that carrying through my whole life. So it was just like always I was unwanted. But it was so confusing at the same time because why did I feel that way when they clearly wanted me? So it was so confusing as a child.
Haley Radke: It's interesting that you had just said earlier that you never thought of searching. Well, why would you want to [00:08:00] search if your adoptive mother told you that you just weren't wanted so they got you?
Lora K. Joy: Right, yeah. So I guess that carries then forward to your question of how did I always know that I didn't fit in. And I can't explain that other than just I didn't. I didn't look like them. I was a white domestic adoptee adopted into a white family but I still didn't look like them. We had completely different lifestyle choices, and I didn't have healthy body images reflected as well as just where did my blue eyes come from and where did my nose and my hair come from? Anything like that. It was very obvious that I didn't genetically belong to my adopted parents. And then just the whole mentality of how you do things, so different. And I realized emotionally also from a very [00:09:00] young age that I wasn't getting what I needed, and I started taking care of myself emotionally from a very young age. And I vowed and made mental notes my whole life about how to do everything the opposite of how I was being raised.
Haley Radke: I'm like, oh my goodness, your little self and mothering yourself, making that choice when you're so young.
Lora K. Joy: Yeah. And having it be so clear inside of me, and then having to be this different person externally to appear as if you are being the loving, loyal daughter.
Haley Radke: So I gotta ask you: how much of this is you can look back and see that this is what you were doing versus during childhood did you feel [00:10:00] this way? It's pretty clear to you that as a young person you were actually cognizant of these things.
Lora K. Joy: I was absolutely cognizant of doing everything the opposite, and I was absolutely cognizant of knowing I wanted something different and that I needed something different. And my whole life, this part is retrospective, and it's just being able to look back after therapy and being able to say that is total lack of attunement from my adopted parents. And being able to name that and put language to it. And also realizing that as a child doing that for myself, I was completely inadequate. Children aren't supposed to parent themselves. And then there were things shared throughout my childhood so that I found myself parenting them a lot. And one example was in the [00:11:00] fifth grade, we always had financial struggles, and money was always an issue. And there was some financial situation happening when I was in the fifth grade, and I have this very vivid memory of being on the back porch with my adoptive mother. She was having a cigarette, and she was stressing out about this financial situation, and I tried to comfort her. I tried to parent her by saying, Well, at least we still have our house. And her response to me was, We barely have that. And from that moment on I just worried about money all the time. And I went to school thinking I was gonna be the homeless kid. I thought I was gonna be homeless. Looking around at all the other kids and thinking, I'm gonna be the homeless kid. That lasted for a few weeks, and that didn't ever happen, but it was the way it was communicated to me that just scared me so bad. [00:12:00] And it was in that moment that I vowed to make sure I was financially stable in life, and that meant going to college, which no one in my family had done. So I knew I had to go to college, and I knew I had to be able to be secure for myself. So in a way, it was good that I was that determined and driven, but there's healthier ways to get there than that experience.
Haley Radke: I would say, yeah.
Lora K. Joy: So yeah. So that was one example. And just, over the years, my adoptive father never spoke to me, really. I don't remember any conversations with him, especially anything of importance. And he's just that type of person. He doesn't talk a lot, except for he would get upset with me and yell at me if I upset my adoptive mother. He was always in defense of her. So anyway. [00:13:00]
Haley Radke: So what did that look like in the teen years and young adulthood? Because you're talking about memories from very, very young and being really aware that these things are happening, and then even older, when a lot of us are starting to figure out identity and all these kinds of pieces, what was that like for you?
Lora K. Joy: The teen years were... I remember feeling trapped, and I remember I just want to get out of here. I want to get out of this town, and I just want to be independent. And so I went to high school. I worked as much as I possibly could. Again, the financial burden that I carried was still there, so I would work as much as I could. I wasn't home very often because I was trying to be busy. So yeah, I just tried to kinda do what I was supposed to do [00:14:00] to get out of there, to pass the time, to get out. So my estrangement happened just recently in the last year but really it's been 30 years in the making. After I left for college, I didn't really go home. I went to college and came home the summer between my freshman/sophomore year, and then I never went back. And from that point forward, it felt very obligatory, the relationship, and it had started to feel that way in the teen years as well, but as a teenager you're still dependent so you have to kind of get through.
Haley Radke: So what was the thing that happened a year ago that all of a sudden was like, Okay, it's 30 years in the making, it's happening now. What was that?
Lora K. Joy: I can talk about that, but then I need to go back 13 years to 2008.
Haley Radke: Rewind, rewind us, Lora. [00:15:00]
Lora K. Joy: Do we talk about 2008? Okay. Let me just say that before I was “out of the fog” because I do resonate with that term and I know some people don't like it, but it was very clear to me what that meant when I saw and read it, so it does resonate with me. But before that moment happened, when I met my husband, I used to say three things. I would say it always felt like she got me for her. Like I was supposed to take care of her emotionally, and I could never pinpoint why. It didn't make sense to me that that's how a mother-daughter relationship was or should be. So I would say that. I also would say–and I have never heard another person say this except for adoptees–is that I would feel relief when they died. [00:16:00]
Haley Radke: And, okay, saying that out loud, how does that feel for you?
Lora K. Joy: Oh, yeah, it feels good. It just means... I know it can sound... I don't wish them ill will. I just would be relieved to not be obligated to them. And to do things that don't match how I feel inside because society says I should. So the third thing I would say before I was "out of the fog" if people ever asked me are you gonna search for your family? I would say, No, I am not gonna search because I don't need more people to take care of in my life.
Haley Radke: Oh, that is interesting. That's an interesting twist on it. I don't hear that much.
Lora K. Joy: Yeah, you know, it makes me think of April Dinwiddie when she says, "More people to love and more people to love me," and I had the exact opposite thought [00:17:00] because that's what I thought family relationships were supposed to be. I was supposed to take care of everybody else emotionally. So why would I need more of that?
Haley Radke: You're finally getting to the age where you can be free of that and just worry about yourself. Why are you going to add more responsibility back on to...
Lora K. Joy: Right, so I think that saying those things before I knew about relinquishment and adoption trauma is pretty telling. So that was my mentality. And so what happened is in 2008, I became pregnant with my second child, a girl, and I was terrified to have a girl, and I had no idea why. Our first child's a boy, and I just always thought I'd be a boy mom, and I don't know why. I just thought that's what I was going to be. And so I had found out I was having a girl, and I was terrified, and I couldn't [00:18:00] figure out why. So 2008, I'm halfway through the pregnancy and I'm figuring out that I can't get around this, oh, I'm having a girl. Something is blocking me. Something is wrong with me that I can't be excited about that. So because I was so scared, I decided to go to therapy for the first time in my life. So I went to a therapist in town and just told her what was going on when I got there, and at the end said, Oh and by the way, I'm adopted, just as an afterthought, because I had never considered it as a problem before. And that's what she honed in on, and I was just super lucky that she was competent in that. She said, Well, you know, there's some things there that we should look at. Have you ever done any work on adoption? I said, No, why would I? She gave me a book to read. That book, in the first few chapters, a woman is talking [00:19:00] about feeling this grief about where's my mom? As an adoptee, she's remembering this grief of where's my mom? And that hit me. It just washed over me. And this is in 2008 before I knew anything about IFS or any sort of therapy tools, and first time I'd ever been to therapy. So I'm reading this book, I read those three words, and I am on the floor. I am bawling, just waves of grief washing over me, and I felt that I became my infant self, my newborn baby self and I had that emotion: Where's my mom, where's my mom? And just grieving that, that loss. And it felt like I was on the floor for 45 minutes and just tears streaming down my face. [00:20:00] And my husband came in and he said, What's wrong? What's wrong? I said, I'll tell you when I'm finished. And so I got up off the floor, and it was as if I was a different person. I grieved. I held that newborn baby self, and I was then able to cradle her, and she was able to fold herself into me and be where she belonged, where she could be safe and I could take care of her, and that we were both able to grieve that loss that we didn't even know was there. So then I was able to explain that to my husband, and I just thought that was how all therapy was supposed to work. I thought it was all supposed to be that transformative.
I saw everything from a new lens at that point, and just had more empathy for everyone in the world, and immediately did a 180 in my thinking and processing. And that was the [00:21:00] big shift for me that really woke me up out of the fog. That was it. And I wouldn't know that language, though, for 12 more years. So I was then able, though, to speak to adoption as being trauma and rooted in loss. So the next step in that therapy process in 2008 was that I was then ready and able to have my daughter and bond with her. So that happened very quickly. And then I started to think, I do want to find my birth mom, my biological mom, because I wanted to know the answers. I wanted to know the truth. When I was a teenager, my adoptive mother had given me my non-identifying information, and she never hid the information. They never acted as if I wasn't adopted, but it always turned around to be about her [00:22:00] in the conversations. And in one of the conversations with giving me my non-identifying information, my biological parents were 28 and 37 when I was born, according to the paperwork. We would later find out that my father was nine years older than that. So yeah, he was in his late 40s when I was born. However, having just their ages, even being 37 according to the papers, she would always say that she thought I was the product of an affair. And she's put her own narrative to the story, and would plant that in my mind as to, Gosh, am I a product of an affair? Was he married? Was it a one-night stand? What's this, what's the deal? What's the story? And so there's so many endless possibilities you can make up in your head, and the only way you can know is to find out the truth. So [00:23:00] I did decide to look for my biological mom in 2008 as a result of having a girl and going to therapy and realizing that adoption does cause trauma, does cause harm.
Haley Radke: Did your non-identifying information say anything about your biological mother having another child, an older child?
Lora K. Joy: Yep, it did. It said that I had a half-brother from her, and also that I had two siblings from my father that were older as well.
Haley Radke: Okay.
Lora K. Joy: Yeah. So in 2008, I was really only focused on her, as most adoptees do, I think. The mom seems to be pretty important. So it was relatively easy. I called the adoption agency. I had to fill out two forms with the state, and they found my file and said, We will contact her on your behalf, and [00:24:00] if she is willing, we'll be a mediary, and you can exchange anonymous letters, packages, and then you can move forward from there. I told my husband, I said, I have to do this with no expectations because she could not want to hear from me. She could not want to know me. I could find a grave. Maybe she's not very nice, whatever. I just have to go in with no expectations. And she got the message and called right back and was very much interested in knowing me and reconnecting. She did tell me that she thought–I was 29 when I started to search–and she said, I thought by age 29, you weren't gonna be coming looking for me. She thought I would've done it earlier. But she was happy to have me search.
Haley Radke: So you were just past the age she was when she had you? [00:25:00]
Lora K. Joy: Yes, I was. Yep. And her whole family knew about me and so I wasn't a secret. It wasn't something that she had to then reveal. So I think, what I found from her is that she's super matter-of-fact and honest and forthright, and it's just been, that's how I am. So it just works. And I think she had an adjustment time, we both did, to get to know each other. We started with emails after the initial anonymous exchange, and then phone calls, and then she came to visit, and we've had multiple visits and are still in reunion today. So that's really good.
Haley Radke: Was your maternal grandmother still alive when you found her?
Lora K. Joy: No. She had passed exactly a year before. Yeah. And I do wonder about that. I wonder. [00:26:00] When I went back and I met all of her brothers, she's the oldest of five, she has four younger brothers, and I met all of her brothers. One of them was reminiscing. They said, Oh, mom used to say: I wonder whatever happened to that little girl? And so, I don't know.
Haley Radke: I just ask because I think a lot of us in that age range, I was born in '83, a lot of us had grandparents who had something to do with these decisions.
Lora K. Joy: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that led to reunion with her, which has been wonderful, and I've met my brother and that whole side of the family. And that was it. I thought that was it. I thought I was done with the work. And at the same time, I felt completely alone and that I was the only person who felt this way in the whole world because it was 2009, like Facebook was just getting [00:27:00] started and I wasn't super savvy, apparently, on the internet to find the adoption community. So flash forward to last May and the week before Mother's Day, I found this online adoptee community and I just sat and read post after post and post after comment after comment, and I was like, Oh my gosh, these are my people. This is exactly how I've been feeling for 12 years, and I'm not the only one. And that's the first time I saw the language of “coming out of the fog” and other people talking about their relationships with their adoptive parents. And I just jumped up outta my chair and I looked to my husband, “Look, these people are saying exactly how I feel.” And it was in that moment that I realized I could have the strength to start having [00:28:00] agency in my life and start speaking my truth. Someone had posted something about not fitting in anywhere, and I just said–and it was a public post and I didn't realize that this would happen, but I posted–"Oh, I've felt that way. I feel that way too. I don't fit in anywhere except for with the family I built for myself with my husband and kids." And within 24 hours, my adoptive mother messaged me about that post, about that comment, and it was my fault because I didn't realize public comments could be seen by everybody that's not in your…
Haley Radke: I wonder how many stories go this way from an oops-Facebook-comment.
Lora K. Joy: Yep. Yeah. So in the same moment that I found these people and felt so validated, I also felt violated that she saw that, [00:29:00] like this was my own private thing. So then I thought, Okay, I'm just gonna find the private Facebook groups for adoptees and I'm only gonna interact there and speak those honest feelings there. And I immediately switched to the private groups. But what happened from that is it set off this chain of messages from her that were checking in to make sure we were okay and I was okay and she was okay. And I'm like, I have validated your feelings and put your feelings before mine my whole life. And I've now found my community and I know that what I have been feeling for the last 13 years is real and it's okay. So within the week, she asked me twice if our relationship was over and I just said, I need some time and I'm not going to put [00:30:00] your emotional wellbeing before mine anymore. So I sent that message and I just left it there, and I found Lesli Johnson, who I have now been working with the whole time. And I found you through Lesli because I listened to one of her episodes on her website. And this whole time I'm trying to have space with my adoptive parents and the first thing Lesli asked me was, What do you want? What do you want for your life? And I'm like, I'm allowed to say that? I'm allowed to say what I want?
Haley Radke: I was just going to ask you, has anyone ever asked you that before? Or had that thought ever crossed your mind before?
Lora K. Joy: Yeah, no!
Haley Radke: Isn't that silly? Because there's so many of us, I think, that can relate to that so much. Lora, I really believe that we would never have thought that.
Lora K. Joy: Yeah. I'm allowed to have agency in my life. So it took me probably six [00:31:00] weeks of her asking me every week, What do you want? What do you want? And eventually I said, I want agency in my life. I want my outside world to match my inside world. And so I've worked with Lesli through that. There's some parallel stories that happen here.
This whole time my adoptive mother's continuing to message me, even when I've asked her not to. And Facebook Messenger, you get that little dot that tells you when someone's read the message. And so I knew as soon as she would see that dot that her clock was ticking for me to respond, and I just felt that hanging over my head. And about every two weeks I would get another message from her, fishing, and I just wouldn't respond. This part of the story, it leads to the next, is in this time I'm learning about IFS. I'm listening to your episodes on that. I'm talking, I'm reading some books about it. I explained [00:32:00] to Lesli that sort of experience I had with my newborn self in 2008. I said that to me felt like IFS, but I'm not sure if it really was because it just happened. And I had this memory of myself when I was about five, and I was at the daycare, and for some reason this memory had just stuck with me. And I told Lesli, I said, I think I need to spend some time with that memory and that little five-year-old girl and see what's going on. So I did that. She's laying on the cot, my little five-year-old self laying on the cot, bear-hugging her tennis shoes. All the kids are supposed to put your tennis shoes under the cot for nap time, and I could not figure out why I couldn't do that. I couldn't put my shoes under the cot like everybody else. So I was just terrified and hugging my shoes. And so I spent some time with this five-year-old girl hugging her shoes, and in my mind I snuggled up behind her as [00:33:00] if I would my daughter and tried to talk to her, and she wouldn't look at me. And I just kept trying. And eventually, I don't know what made me say this, but I said, It's okay. You don't belong here. And that's what made her turn around and look at me. And it was with relief that she looked at me. And it was in that moment that it wasn't just that I didn't belong with my adoptive parents, I didn't belong anywhere in that adoptive family. So I spent some more time with my five-year-old self and, again, told her it was going to be okay and that I was going to take care of her from now on and that she belonged with me. And again, she was able to curl herself into me and be safe. And that opened up this floodgate of I never belonged [00:34:00] there. And it was that process of thinking about the entire family, extended family and whatnot.
So it gave me more, I guess, strength to set firmer boundaries. And so I messaged my adoptive mother and I said, I need you to stop communicating with me on Facebook Messenger. If there's an emergency, you can text me on my cellphone. Within 20 minutes, I had a voicemail from her saying that, Oh, I've been wanting an answer, and I think you gave me the answer. And as far as I'm concerned, and especially your dad, there won't be any emergencies. So I got the voicemail, and I wrote it down word for word, and then I deleted it, and I felt freedom. I felt free. And I think I had built up this, Oh, I have to “break up” with my parents or something as [00:35:00] this big conversation or this big hard thing, and all I had to do was set boundaries, boundaries that they couldn't respect. So I texted a friend of mine after this, a friend of mine who knows my journey and knows the history, and I said, It's the relief I thought I would feel when they died. And she said, But that's not you. That's not how you do things. You make things happen for your life and for yourself. And they weren't an anchor grounding you. They were an anchor pulling you underwater. And that was so validating for her to say to me. So as I tasted that bit of freedom, I thought I can't ever go back to the way it was. But I was also bracing myself because I knew that wasn't the last time I would hear from her.
I got another text message in October [00:36:00] that was basically, Can we talk? We’re your past? And I debated: Do I engage or do I just reestablish the boundary? And I decided I would just start with reestablishing the boundary. So I just texted back, I've asked you not to communicate with me right now. And her immediate response was, I'm done. And I'm like, Okay, I thought you were done two months ago. Okay. So then I get another message the week before Christmas that says in a text something like, Can you just let me know if our relationship is over so I can mourn you and move on, or grieve and move on or something. And I'm thinking, I think it's pretty clear. So it felt like she wanted me to be the bad guy. [00:37:00] I'm setting boundaries. This is the way it's going. But you want me to say the words so that you can say, Well, she said that. That's what it felt like. It felt like a setup to me, and I just let it go. I just thought, No, I'm not. I don't need to respond to that. And through Lesli's guidance, she’s like, Well, your actions are speaking pretty loudly, right? And so pretty early on, like before Christmas, I did say to my husband and Lesli, I said, I feel like I need to communicate, to change your power of attorney, please, because I am an only child, so it will default to me. And so I didn't want any medical emergency or anything like that to come up where I would be the first phone call. So I sat with that for a while. And so the text message at Christmas, and then she texted me “Happy Birthday” the day before my birthday, which [00:38:00] I'm like, If you're gonna text me when I've asked you not to, at least text on the right day.
So, I think, end of January, I was starting to have that sort of emotional worry about when's the next text message going to come? And so I decided I have to block them on my phone too. So end of January, I decided to do that, and it was like I can always unblock them. If it doesn't feel good, I can always undo that. And so I did. I blocked them on my phone and also email, and it felt even lighter. It felt even better that I was like, Okay, now I don't have to worry about every time my phone buzzes, is it gonna be a message from them? And I'm still just sitting. I'm sitting with it, and I decide, March 1st, I decide I need to send a letter that just says: Please change your power of attorney. It would be better for [00:39:00] you to change your power of attorney and inheritance, whatever. And I think I phrased it something like: "I've pretended there was a connection for longer than there really was." And I needed to send that for myself. It didn't matter how they responded or if they did, because I needed to communicate that final boundary. My kids are now 12 and 15 at the moment, and they've been on this journey with me. They know most of this story. And I was going to sign the letter, "Please do not contact me or my family further." And I wanted to let them know about that because they are old enough to communicate on their own if they wished to. And my husband wanted to make sure that they knew it wasn't something that we came to lightly or it wasn't just a flippant decision. It was something that had [00:40:00] been coming. And I asked them, I said, Do you guys wanna be included in that please do not contact me further? And they both said, Yeah, that's fine. And I said, Okay. And if they change their mind, one has a cellphone, one will have a cellphone soon. They can start communicating if they'd like.
And going back to 2008, I think part of the reason I didn't set this boundary then is because I felt like I couldn't do it with babies. I couldn't take grandchildren away from their grandparents and vice versa. I had to maintain this obligatory relationship because I would be a horrible person for doing that, right? I would be a horrible mom for taking the grandparents away from the babies or the grandkids away from the grandparents. So, I don't know, I just felt like I had to keep that up. But then what I did was I spent 12 years protecting my [00:41:00] kids emotionally, and now they can understand. They're at ages where we can have conversations about why and how. And so, yeah, I think that's why it took me so long to get to that point because I felt like I had to, and I also didn't have the strength of this community. [00:42:00]
Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. There's so many painful parts of that and hearing their responses to your requests that were very quick and sounded really angry and off the cuff and stuff. It made me think of how much work Lora has undertaken. We're talking about years of therapy and building up all these tools and skills. And I love how you talked about IFS–we have episodes on that if you go and look, search “IFS” on the Adoptees On website and that talks a little bit more about that. But, you know, that remothering your baby self or your five-year-old self, and I saw you wrote something somewhere about your 10-year-old self, those kinds of moments. It's so clear that you have worked really hard on those things and when the people that you're in relationship with aren't doing those things, it feels like they're just farther and farther away. Does that ring true for you?
Lora K. Joy: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it felt like that too in 2008. I had a conversation with my adoptive mother in 2008 where I had to address some things from their visit after my daughter was born. And I was saying, I need some time. And she was like when do I get to see your babies? And I said, I don't know. I don't know how long this is gonna take. And she said, Will it be another year? And I said, I don't know. And what you're telling me is that you care more about seeing my kids and yourself, than you care about me. And then her [00:43:00] response was: You're caring more about yourself than your kids or me. She was just reversing it back, not taking the responsibility. And she said, Oh, my doctor suggested I go to therapy. And I said –
Haley Radke: Sorry, I literally just took a drink of water, and you almost had me in a spit take. That's good.
Lora K. Joy: I'm sorry.
Haley Radke: No, it's good. It's good. That's what happens to me all the time on the Patreon show.
Lora K. Joy: So she said, Actually, my doctor suggested I go to therapy. I said, Actually, my therapist thought it would be good for someone to help you on your end as well. And she said: “I don't believe therapy is for everyone. I won't go to therapy. For every person who is healing, there are a half a dozen others getting hurt.” And I just thought that's not what the work is about. It's not about hurting other people. It's about healing yourself. And then you change, you grow, you heal, and then you are a different person, and you live your authenticity and your truth. And the people who have been in your life don't like that change and that growth, and they can't see it and appreciate it. So that was her response to me in 2008 about that. Same sort of thing, and I look back and it's so clear to me now. It's so clear that there's not been any change between 2008 and 2020 and 2021. So when you know something and you see something and you know it's the truth, and you know it just on a cellular level, you can't unknow those things. You can't undo those things. And when I got that message at Christmas, I thought: I have worked so hard to get to this point. It's not worth undoing that work. [00:45:00] And ultimately, if I were to sum this up in a sentence, I would say it mattered that I was raised by strangers from the beginning, and this estrangement feels like I'm rebuilding a life I should have always had. [00:46:00]
Haley Radke: It sounds to me, as we wrap up and do recommended resources, that you have very much come from a position of empowerment. So making these decisions, through therapy with guidance from a therapist, and it didn't come as a big surprise to you that maybe this was the decision that was coming. It sounded very measured and things, and, similarly, with some of the other guests we've had on the Estrangement Series and some of the other adoptees that message me, I haven't yet had this big "Oh, we were estranged after this massive fight.” It's just these little things here and there that just build up and build up, and eventually you just decide, Can I choose me first? Is that okay?
Lora K. Joy: Yes. And it's exhausting. I just knew I would have to keep reestablishing these boundaries for the rest of their lives, and that's exhausting. I don't need to do that. That's more emotional work for me. [00:47:00]
Haley Radke: Well, and you had mentioned that you were spending time protecting your kids or undoing things after visits and things. I'm reading into that a little bit, but, that just feels... okay, this is relatable. This series is the series that's taken the most out of me. But there's been decisions that I've made similarly with the guidance of my psychologist, etc., and when you talk about this obligation for providing your kids with access to their grandparents or whatever there's questions underneath that like why? Why is that so important? Is it important to you? Is it really? Is this another thing that's society's expectation that you provide grandchildren, all of those things? What I want people to hear is you have permission to think about that question, and I would recommend, too, that you would explore it with a therapist if that's something that's on your mind or if that's the thing that's like this obligation that's holding you somewhere that maybe you don't want to be.
Lora K. Joy: Yeah. I 100% agree with that and relate to that, and I will add that even just making phone calls on holidays, Father's Day, Mother's Day, Christmas, any time, birthdays. I'm like, "Oh, it's 5:00. I better call and say “Happy birthday." There was never any joy behind that. It was all [00:48:00] because I had to. So I ask myself now–and I've tried to expand this beyond my relationship with my adoptive parents: Do I have to do that? Is it because I should do that? Or is it because I want to do that? And there's a difference, and it's okay to have agency in your life. You are allowed to have agency in your life, and you are allowed to speak your truth and live it. And I hope that this is an empowering story for people. I know it's been a difficult series for you, but I hope that it is an empowering story because that's how I feel. I do. I feel empowered after this process. I will say, I'm gonna add one more thing, after I sent that letter in March asking them to change their power of attorney, we received a box back from them, and I didn't want to open the [00:49:00] box. I had my husband do it. I said, I need you to open that. I'm sure there's a letter. I need you to screen this for me and tell me what's in it. And he read the letter. It was a four-page letter, and the box contained family photos of me and my family that I had sent last year before everything happened in May. So the family photos got returned to me and then the letter. And he said it wasn't a mean letter. It wasn't a nastygram or anything. He just told me what was in it, and I said, Okay. And you know what, Haley? I have decided that at this point, and maybe never, I don't have to read that letter because I asked them to change their power of attorney and I set a final boundary for myself, no matter how they responded. It did not matter if they responded at all or angrily or positively. I don't need their response. I did not need that. So the letter's here. I might read it someday, but for now I don't have to. And that’s part of the empowerment, I think, that I'm not beholden to them anymore. [00:50:00]
Haley Radke: I have a similar system: husband/readers. Because they're a step away. It doesn't hurt their feelings, whatever. I thumbs up. I think that's a good decision. And I feel like I should say this, and let's put a pause in Lora's story, and I just want to say, not that I think this could have turned out differently for you, but I wonder if you're in this situation, listener, and the other party decides they do want to go to therapy and makes that choice for healing and those kinds of things. It's not, oh, then you're going to start a relationship necessarily. Maybe you both decide, yeah, we're all done, and you walk away. But you're both moving towards [00:51:00] something, some form of wholeness or healing. I think things can be different. I think it's really discouraging hearing that she just didn't even care to try, that therapy just wrecks other people. That's just a weird thing to say, in my opinion. But anyway, what I hope for people is that there would be movement on both sides so that there can be some sort of... I just don't want this to be the “how to break up with your parents” series, like how you alluded to.
Lora K. Joy: Well, I agree with you. And you know what? I'm in Pam and Anne's Flourish Group, and there are people in the group who have had positive experiences with their adoptive parents and having those hard conversations and being heard and seen and validated, and the adoptive parents being open to learning. I think that's all we need.
Haley Radke: Thank you so much for sharing that, and I'm so glad that you shared even that piece about validation. I was so [00:52:00] surprised because you sent me this really cool project you were working on. I had no idea. And you are also starting a blog and lots of really neat things over at My Adoptee Truth, and we'll have links to that in the show notes, so you can look for that. But you wrote a book. What? You wrote this really beautiful, I'm going to call it a children's book, but I want to hear how you classify it. It's called Goodbye, Hypervigilance: Healing Adoptee Worry. I think it's really powerful. One little phrase I pulled out of it is the main character expresses that she has been looking for emotional danger, and I thought that is so brilliant to describe hypervigilance that way. Can you tell us a little bit about this book and just that experience of hypervigilance?
Lora K. Joy: Yeah. So I wrote the book and [00:53:00] just tried to simplify the language so that it could be understood. Whereas I had that feeling my whole life but I could never name it and I couldn't see it. So if you're an adoptee who just needs to see this named for you to help you heal, or if you're a therapist who's working with someone who can't quite grasp that concept of hypervigilance because it's an internal thing, maybe it will help a therapist communicate what that's like. Maybe it will help name for an adoptee. Maybe it will help an adoptive parent read with their child and help prevent that for them. At first I did call it a children's book and I still do. It is in the format of a children's book. It is illustrated. I do think I'm referring to it more as an illustrated book now because it is such a deep topic. It's not something you hand to your child and they can just read by themselves. You certainly have to sit with [00:54:00] them. But it's something that I hope is a good tool.
Haley Radke: Oh, I absolutely think it is. I think it'll be very helpful, so I look forward to seeing some more of these. So special. All right. What did you want to recommend to us today, Lora?
Lora K. Joy: Ooh, a new thing has popped up on Facebook from Adoptees Connect and our friend Pamela Karanova. She's your friend. In my mind, she's my friend. I hope she's my friend someday. Adoptee Epiphanies Handwritten Sentiments. Adoptees can write in; it has to be a handwritten note, one to three sentences or words, and everything is shared anonymously. So it's this new account that she started. I have resonated with most of them, and I love seeing them. And I asked her if I could read a few that had resonated with me. So there's just a few here.
One was, "I have a grudge with adoptive parents. Less talking and more listening to adoptees, please." [00:55:00]
The second one, "They say time heals all wounds. Not if you're adopted because you have lost time being someone else and somewhere else. Ever since I can remember, I have felt that love from others was conditional."
And the last one: "I just want my mom. I have always just wanted my mom."
Haley Radke: They're so powerful. I've loved reading them. Some of them are really painful, as you just read. It's very reminiscent of what's that account? Like PostSecret, where people write out these postcards of their secrets and they mail them and they're shared anonymously. That blog's been popular for years now. But there's something about having them in their handwriting; it feels personal and yet it's still an anonymous way for people to share, which is, sadly, sometimes the only way people feel [00:56:00] comfortable to share those deep feelings. I've really appreciated that account, too. Thank you.
It's been such an honor hearing your story, and thank you so much for sharing even the really hard stuff. Will you share with us how we can connect with you online and how we can find your book and see what else you have coming up?
Lora K. Joy: Yeah. My website is new and Facebook is new, myadopteetruth (dot) com.
You can also get there by lorakjoy (dot) com. Facebook is just My Adoptee Truth. And on the website there's a link to the book, and there's a couple more illustrated books coming soon, as well. They're in the works. And the memoirs, I don't know how far off that is, but it's coming.
Haley Radke: I feel like sometimes people take their time with that because it's so intimately personal, obviously. Yeah. What an obvious thing to say, Haley. Anyway, thank you so much, Lora.
Lora K. Joy: Thank you.[00:57:00]
Haley Radke: All right, my friend. That was likely our last episode in the Estrangement Series for a little while. I may do a few more of them in the fall if that is requested. I can certainly do that. I had a couple other guests that I was considering talking to about it, but we've put a pin in recording for now because I just happen to live in the province that has an explosion of [Covid] cases right now. And so my kids are online schooling. If you didn't hear that in a previous episode, they're at home, so it's put a little damper on recording. So we're wrapping up this round of the show a little early to go on summer break, but we'll be back in the fall, of course, with regular weekly episodes.
And in the meantime, if you just need more Adoptees On content, you can always support the show on Patreon. That money [00:58:00] goes to keeping this show free and available for everyone, and so I will never put Adoptees On behind a paywall. I do have the second podcast, Adoptees Off Script, as a thank you to my Patreon supporters. If you go to adopteeson.com/partner, you can find out how to join there. And I have so much fun recording Off Script. It is very unedited, candid Haley. We talk about lots of different topics, and we've been doing a monthly Book Club, which has been such a gift. Sometimes the author joins us. Sometimes we do a round table with fellow adoptee readers, and it's just been wonderful. And if you can't be with us live, we drop the recording of the audio right into your podcast app of choice. So it's easy-peasy. It's so great. Easy way for you to connect with more adoptee authors and adoptee-produced work in this world, which of course we are always cheering for.
So a couple episodes left before we wrap for summer break. Thank you so [00:59:00] much for listening. Thank you for supporting the show. I have so many new Patreon supporters. I'm so grateful, and without you, I can't keep doing the show. So you gotta keep supporting it if you want the show to live. That's just how it is.
So adopteeson.com/partner, and let's talk again next Friday.
