187 Dr. Liz DeBetta

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/187


Haley: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 187, Dr. Liz DeBetta. I'm your host Haley Radkey. We are coming to our summer break. What better note to end on than this encouraging episode with Dr. Liz DeBetta. Liz has been on the podcast before and shared her story of coming to her late thirties before examining the impact adoption had on her life.

Today, though, we are strictly diving into one of her areas of expertise, which is using writing as a tool for healing. Writing is accessible. It has physical, emotional, and mental health benefits. Writing can help us create a new narrative for ourselves. Liz recently led a group of adoptees through a transformative writing group, and she shares with us some tools we can use to start our own writing practice.

We wrap up with some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, www.adopteeson.com. Let's listen in. I am so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On Dr. Liz DeBetta. Welcome Liz.

Liz DeBetta: Hi Haley. So good to be here.

Haley: I'm so excited to talk to you. The last time we talked was episode 118, so you can scroll back. You were still working on your dissertation, so I was so, like, pumped when you put “Dr.” on your paperwork because you're done. Woo!

Liz DeBetta: Yes, it's true. I got done in, you know, in the midst of the pandemic.

Haley: So you're still planning the party then?

Liz DeBetta: Yeah, we had a Zoom party with a bottle of champagne and some takeout sushi and a few friends on Zoom and that was pretty much it. So yeah, there hasn't been a big in-person celebration yet, but a good excuse to have one.

Haley: That's right. Absolutely. I'm going to point people back to that episode to hear some of your story and the background on how you got to doing some of the things we're going to be talking about today. But I would love it if you just give us a little intro into who you are, and how you got to the point where we are now for adoptees to be writing as a method of healing.

Liz DeBetta: I have been writing since about the age of 14. I had a really smart, insightful teacher and coach who knew that I was going through some stuff. I can't, I don't recall if at the time he knew that I was adopted.

I'm pretty sure that he did. But either way, he knew that I was dealing with some really big feelings, and so he suggested I start writing poetry, which at 14 years old, I really thought was the dumbest thing in the world. Because poetry, like, who writes poetry? Come on. And then one day, we were sitting in his office and he read me this poem that he had written for his college girlfriend and the poem was called “Blue Fire.”

I'll never forget it. It was a poem that he wrote while he was on a date with his girlfriend. He had taken her to see the ballet, which was her favorite thing. And he spent more time watching her watch the ballet than watching the ballet himself. And he wrote this poem about it. And I was profoundly moved by this experience of this man sharing this poem with me.

And then from that moment I was like, oh, maybe this isn't so dumb. So I got a little colorful journal notebook and I started writing. And at the time I didn't know why I felt the way I felt. I didn't know why. I was depressed, I was sad, I was angry, I was confused, I was scared.

All these things. And I just wrote, and it was for me. I never shared any of that with anyone. And so I did that for a lot of the years. Any time the world got too much for me, or my own feelings got too much for me, I would just go to my notebooks and I would write. And stuff just sort of came out.

It wasn't anything that I was ever really super conscious of. Yeah, I mean, it is a conscious process, but I also feel like there's something really unconscious about a lot of the writing that I was doing, especially early on. And I have a theory about that, which I'm still playing with just from an academic, theoretical, scholarly standpoint.

But anyway, I did all this writing and, in retrospect, it really helped keep me balanced. It helped me organize the really intense feelings that I had. And gave them some place to live other than inside me.

And so, fast forward, all of these years later, when I got into my PhD program, I didn't really know where that journey was going to take me, but I did know that I was really interested in continuing to pursue creative writing as one part of it.

And one of the courses that I got to take in my program was Poetry for Healing. And it's a whole field. There's a whole field of poetry and writing for healing that I didn't even know was a thing. And I was like, this is the thing I've been doing my whole life. I've been using poems to help myself manage the difficult stuff.

And so then, when I learned about all of that and I learned that there are actually physical and emotional and mental health benefits to writing through grief, writing through pain, writing through trauma. Writing about it and making sense of it. I was like, oh, this is so exciting. And again this is the thing I've been doing.

And so then, as I moved toward thinking about my dissertation, which was a creative dissertation, I decided that I wanted to do an exploration of some of my early writing. And as I looked back through some of my first poems,

Haley: Because you kept all your journals and things, right?

Liz DeBetta: Yes, of course I did. And I will tell you something. Not one of them is finished. They are all from different parts of my life and I have never completely filled one of them. And I think there's something really telling about that, because I think we're always on a journey and we're always unfinished, right? So it's a metaphor for that, I think, in those notebooks.

But yeah, so I started going through these early poems and I could very clearly see all of my pain and my grief and my trauma and my loss and my confusion. It was all there, right? I started looking at the language and the images that I was constantly using and the mood. And the tone of so many of those poems was really dark and just a lot like a feeling of being lost and having all these questions.

So there was an implication of all these questions, but never finding any answers. So it was really interesting to start to look at that and then to look at how to take those early poems and create a new narrative. So a big part of my dissertation project was a one-woman show where I incorporated some of my early poems and then some newer poems where I was rewriting parts of my story that were still unknown to me.

So like questions about the circumstances of my birth, for example. I didn't have any answers about that. I didn't have any information about that, right? So many of us don’t. And so some of the more recent poems were about just me reimagining what the night I was born was like.

And so I created this whole narrative that was punctuated by all of these poems to tell a story about what it's like to live with the trauma of being adopted in a patriarchal society that's disadvantageous to women and children, right? That says that two parents are better than one, and that a young single woman is irresponsible and shouldn't be able to keep her baby, right? And of course, lots of these things are generational, but they're still happening. So it was really important to use art and the creative process to tell a story publicly that people need to hear. So I guess that's it in a large nutshell.

Haley: I've heard you speak about writing as a public testimony and it's interesting that your project was this one-woman show where it's literally giving a public testimony. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I don't think, of course, not all of our writing will be performed and you are an actor. You have got a theater background as well. So there's that piece for you.

Liz DeBetta: So in some of the research about creativity, using creativity to heal trauma, Dr. Sophia Richmond writes about creative transformations of trauma, and one of the things that comes up in her work is this idea that the art, whatever it is, whether it's a poem or a piece of personal narrative writing or a painting or a drawing or a piece of music that is composed. Whatever form the art takes becomes a container for the artist to put the trauma into and to reshape it and to fashion it into something.

And then that's one part of the way that we start to heal, when we can put our feelings into something outside of ourselves. So the poem, the one-woman show, the whatever. And then the other piece of healing, at least according to her, is having that art witnessed and sharing it publicly.

And that also comes up a lot, there's a lot of connections to that in lots of the other research. It is this idea of not only writing or creating, but then giving it to someone else and saying, here, witness this. Because I'm heard and I'm seen, and also the act of public performance is, I don't want to get too theoretical, but it is another way of creating empathy, right?

Because when you are a performer or a speaker, when your body is in physical space with an audience, the audience members are part of that experience with you for the time that it's happening, and they can't turn away, right? Like they've chosen to be there. They've chosen to sit there in this live experience, to take in what is happening, right?

And to engage with my body as it tells the story. And what happens is then that space, that theatrical space becomes a container for empathy and for critical thinking. And so part of the process for me then was also a couple of audience talkbacks where people got to ask questions.

Not only about the writing and the performance process, but like my own experience, and why I chose to tell this story. And what it ended up doing for a lot of people was shifting their perspectives and having many people say, I had no idea. I never thought about adoption this way.

I had one woman who grew up with adopted siblings and she said, I have this much better understanding now of what was going on, like why my family dynamic was the way that it was. It's probably because my siblings were going through some of the things you described in this performance and none of us knew.

Haley: How does that feel for you personally to know that you got to shift someone's narrative.

Liz DeBetta: That's exactly why I do this work. That's the thing that became really important to me. The more that I worked on my PhD and my dissertation study was like, okay, I can take all of these parts of myself, right?

I can take my background as a theater artist and my background as a writer and a teacher, and a thinker, and I can smash them together in a really unique way to do something positive in the culture of adoption. Because the more that I studied all of the literature, the scholarly literature, I was like, nobody's telling these stories.

And we know in the adoptee community, we know how often we're silenced. We know how often, “but what about…”; and people speaking for us and about us. And so it was part of my own healing process to do this important work, but also I look at it as an act of cultural mediation and cultural healing, right?

If we don't start to tell these stories and make people listen, then nothing's going to change. So it's really affirming to have people, multiple people, after they've watched my show say, Wow, I have totally changed my perspective. So that's why this work is so important, and that's why every opportunity that we have to get adoptees’ voices centered and telling our stories, we should. Because I think the time is well past when we should be paying attention. It's 2021 and, like, we gotta get comfortable talking about trauma. Like we can't. Sorry, but sorry, not sorry.

Haley: It's time.

Liz DeBetta: Yep. Yeah,

Haley: I have this Adoptees On Healing Series where I'm always talking with therapists about various things related to trauma and healing and things.

And, you've used the word healing and I'm curious what that means for you. What things have shifted for you or changed for you as you've written poetry and literally studied this and performed and all of those things. Do you feel like healing happening? What is “healing,” what does that mean for you?

Liz DeBetta: I think, healing, one of the things that I wrote and I say in the show is that healing is not a linear process. For me it's been concentric and twisting and turning in on itself. And because it's a journey, right? And it takes different paths at different times.

But for me, what I've come to realize, especially over the last couple of years, is that healing is about finding wholeness. About finding ways to feel whole and to feel real and to feel grounded. To not feel like I'm gonna fly off in a million parts, which is another thing that I wrote. This constant feeling of I'm gonna fly away into a million parts. If I don't keep control, right?

And yeah, a lot of the healing comes through owning these parts of my story and really sitting with the feelings, I, and I think a lot of adoptees, can relate to dissociating and not feeling, and not wanting to feel, and being afraid to feel or being taught our feelings aren't valid. And so we just shove them down and pretend everything's okay, and then we don't know. We don't know what's okay and not okay. It just becomes a mess. And I have that experience of really not feeling and sort of existing in a numb but overactive space for a long time.

In terms of my experience of my body. So a big part of healing, too, for me has come in having a new experience of my body. And learning to stay in my body, to be present, to feel safe, to not want to escape all the time. And that was a big part of why the performance aspect of my dissertation project was important because the performing and the living through the words that I had written and through the story I was telling and really experiencing all that in my body through the rehearsal process and through the performance process helped start to move trauma too.

I started to feel different, like I would finish rehearsals and things would hurt. And yes, it was a very physically active show. I did a lot of movement and breath work and stuff, but, like, things hurt. My hips hurt. And that's a place where we know that trauma gets stored. And I started to notice the places, the sort of what I call holding patterns, right? Like my default holding patterns where I was like, oh, I have held my hips and my gut and this whole center of my body really tightly for my whole life.

And now I can start to release that. I can let it go. So it's also feeling those physical changes that tells me that I'm healing. And then I guess another big thing that's happened is I've been doing EMDR, too, for the last couple of years, so that's been a really good companion to all of this other work.

But the way that I don't have my recurring nightmares anymore, and I know that a lot of adopted people have these sort of very similar recurring nightmares around searching for something that we never find. And that's certainly been my big recurring dream of looking for someone or something and spending the whole dream panicking and not being able to find whatever it is or whoever it is I'm looking for.

Or starting out the dream with my partner and then getting separated and then never being able to find him again. And now when I have this dream, it resolves itself and by the end of the dream, we're back together. And to me that's huge.

Haley: That is huge. Wow. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing all those things.

I am doing EMDR again, like I'm really in depth right now, but I feel often scared of writing. Even privately because I am worried about the things that are gonna come out, it's like admitting things to yourself. But that’s just my personal note. I know that you ran a group for seven weeks with other adult adoptees and were leading them through all of these different writing prompts and different exercises, and I would love it if you would talk a little bit about that because I think it's such an amazing thing to talk about, writing on your own. But then you've brought in this other aspect of writing in community and what that could do for people.

Liz DeBetta: Yes, I think it's really important for people to write and writing is scary, right? You're not the first person. You know, yes. You have to confront things, right? But it's also a way of getting it out. And so for the group that I just worked with for seven weeks, I was really interested in creating a space, an adoptee-only space, and creating an opportunity, as you say, to write in community. And what we, I called the group migrating toward wholeness.

Because, like I said, that's healing. I think, for me as an adoptee and for a lot of other adoptees, especially as adults, is to try to move toward a sense of wholeness. And so the group was comprised of 11 other adoptees. Aged from their mid-twenties up through their sixties. So we had multiple generations represented.

I specifically chose domestic closed adoption adoptees for this first group because I was interested in seeing what the commonalities in our experiences might be despite the age differences. Just from a researcher’s standpoint.

Haley: And that's your personal experience as well.

Liz DeBetta: Yeah, exactly, that's my personal experience. And I am a creative person and a facilitator, a sort of guide. And this aspect of social justice, like this is real social justice work when we can create spaces for adoptees to come together and find ways to tell their stories and to heal in community.

Whether the writing that gets done gets shared publicly or not is a side bonus. But there was the act of writing and sharing in the small group, because we were witnessing one another for those seven weeks. We got together every Saturday for seven weeks for two hours. The first week, people just shared their stories and we just listened to each other.

And from that first session everything was really emergent. I didn't really pre-plan a lot because I wanted to work with who was in the room with me. Who was there and what was I hearing and what did I think people needed to start to think about and write about.

And so the prompts came out of things that people were saying, the questions that I posed to them. Each week we had two sets of questions. There was a set of writing questions and then a set of writing prompts. So those were just some direct quotes followed by ellipses that they could just finish the sentence and keep going.

Or, several questions that came up related to things people said, related to the experiences that were shared. And then I also offered them each week four questions for reflection, because one of the important things to do is not only to write about the experiences and start to discover what you need to say, but also to reflect on it. Like what's happening as I write, as I'm working through this process, like, what's going on in my body, right?

Am I sleeping better? Does my breathing shift? Things like that. And also there were some things that were really hard for people to write about. Because for some people this was the first time they were giving themselves permission to write about being adopted and their feelings and, like, go there, right?

So to your point, Haley, like some of them were like, I saw this and I was like, this is scary, but I'm gonna do it. They jumped in and what happened was incredible. It was an incredible process and we wished it didn't have to end. We ended up adding an additional session because by the time we got to six weeks, we were like, okay, we need more time.

We need a little bit more time together. And for some people, this was the beginning of creating space to feel what they need to feel. What they've been told has not been okay to feel. And many of us know that something really special happens when adoptees come together in adoptee-only spaces. It's automatically a safe space.

So, I think I talked a little bit about this in the presentation that we did after the seven weeks with the group, but it is this idea of reflective resonance, which we as adoptees do automatically. When we listen to one another's stories we're not listening to respond.

We're listening to hear. And to be supportive and to be empathetic and say, yeah. What I'm hearing you say is, this is really hard for you. Or, this has been a really challenging way to go through life. What happens, usually, because we're socially conditioned to listen, to respond, which is not reflective resonance.

And so this happened so much as adoptees, when we try to speak in other spaces that are not exclusively adoptees, we get spoken to, we get spoken over. People are not listening to us and reflectively resonating with us. They're not going, “Oh wow, that sounds so hard.” They're going, “Oh, but not all adoptees.”

Or, “but what about the adoptive parents?” And this is something that comes up a lot, like in conversations I have with my own parents, which is incredibly frustrating at times. But I give my parents a lot of credit because they've also been on this journey with me for the last couple of years, and they're trying. They're really listening and they want to know, and they want to understand, and they feel bad that they didn't know 40 plus years ago what they know now.

And I know that it's incredibly difficult for them to listen and to hear. Anyway, back to my point about this idea of reflective resonance. I think we do this instinctively as adoptees where we just listen. We're here and we can be mirrors for one another.

And so I think a lot of this work, part of the healing comes in the more that we can create adoptee-centric spaces, I hope that there will be a shift in this to more widespread reflective resonance where people can start to receive the stories. But the first step is creating spaces where we feel safe together, and that creates that community of braveness.

Right? And the ability to explore the feelings. Knowing I'm sitting here with 11 other adult adoptees whose experiences very closely mirror my own, despite the fact that we're in different parts of the United States, grew up in very different circumstances, in different decades. But here we are saying so many of the same things.

That gives me permission, or anyone who participated in the group, the permission to really go there and to have the opportunity to not be afraid to dive in. And that's really powerful.

Haley: I was just asked about this and the person challenged me, or adoptees, asking what is this adoptee activism thing? Are we just in an echo chamber? And my response was I feel like we're practicing on each other and building up the muscles. And I love that you said bravery because it takes courage to share our story wholly. That is against the traditional narrative. Knowing that the responses we've gotten in the past may continue, the “but what about” and “I don't believe you” and all those kinds of things.

So building the muscles in order to share outside starts out with having the safe space. I love this reflective resonance, I love that term. It's so perfect. And could you speak a little more on having an intergenerational group? Because when we share stories on this show and there are younger adoptees or older adoptees and some of them will say I was in the Baby Scoop. Or you identify yourself by that sort of generation. But what was it like to have people from different decades participating and speaking to each other in that way?

Liz DeBetta: I think it was really important. I think what it did was it showed us that we are not the problem. Right? It showed us that we are not the problem. That the culture of adoption and the system of adoption as it has existed since the mid-1940s is the problem. Because we had adoptees who were in their mid-twenties who were still products of closed adoption.

And adoptees in their sixties who were definitely part of the Baby Scoop who had been really effectively silenced by their generational guilt and the shame. But all of us talked about this guilt and this shame and this needing to fit into a mold. And someone else's idea of who we should be, right?

There was so much crossover in what people said and shared and parts of stories and just the internal experiences. I guess that’s really what I'm talking about is having this multi-generational group of adoptees talking about internal experiences that were very similar.

Haley: And you had only closed domestic adoptions represented in your group. And even when I think of some of the younger adoptees that I've spoken to who were products of an open adoption, that thread continues. So I love that you said that. It's not us. It's not me, it's you, system.

Liz DeBetta: Yeah, exactly.

Haley: Yeah.

Liz DeBetta: And I think it was really empowering and affirming for us to come together and for the younger adoptees to connect with the older adoptees. And again, I think the most profound thing was that for several of the group members, this was the first time they were doing this kind of thing.

And so there was a tremendous amount of trust that they placed in me and in each other that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't adoptees only. And hearing each other share different parts of their stories or pieces of the writing that they were doing from week to week gave other people permission to keep writing and to keep sharing.

Haley: So we've both talked about doing EMDR and various therapy at other points in our lives. And you mentioned your social justice activism, and I'm curious if you have thoughts on the accessibility of writing. And if you think it's accessible and if that makes it just another reason why it's such an important tool. Because of course we can, I've said this on the show before: therapy is inaccessible to a lot of people. It's just very expensive and it's inaccessible sometimes. So can you talk about writing and what your thoughts are on that piece?

Liz DeBetta: Yeah, I love that. And it's so (beep) that therapy is inaccessible for so many people. When so many of us need it, not just adoptees, but so many people in the world. It's a part of our physical health, right? Taking care of our mental health. So we need to do better about that.

But yeah, I do think that writing is accessible to anyone regardless of circumstance or situation or ability because you can get a notebook and a pen or if you have a computer, you can open a Word doc or a Google Doc and type if that's accessible.

If you have some physical limitations, you can speak to text, right? Like you can speak and the technology will type for you. And so I think that recognizing that writing can also be a very private act, right? It doesn't have to be something that you choose to share, but it can be something that you do for yourself because it is therapeutic. Because it helps you give shape to things that feel chaotic. That's in some of the literature about why writing is a therapeutic thing. It’s that when we create a narrative for ourselves, we're giving order to something that formerly felt chaotic.

When we use something specific like poetry, we're getting right to the heart of the emotions, right? We're taking out all the unnecessary language and we're using images to connect to the really deep, intense emotions. That can then help us make sense of them.

An image that I work with a lot has to do with ghosts and tombs and bones and things, and I think that it's really important to not just write the things but then go back and like what? Why did I write this, right? What are the ghosts? And for me, like I know the ghosts come up because we know there are ghosts in the adopted family, right?

Most people hopefully know about Betty Jean Lifton and her work specifically on ghosts in the adopted family. But that actually came up in the group. One of the group members was like, I just learned about this and I was like, yeah, here's the article. But it's true.

We live with these ghosts and so I, as a writer, have to pay attention to what's coming up and what that tells me about my internal experiences and things that maybe I still need to process. But the writing is a process and an act of processing too.

Haley: You've taught us a lot during this whole conversation, but I just want to double down on it, and I think you'll talk to this when we're doing our recommended resources as well, right away, but it's a process. It can be a tool for healing. There's research and it's proven. And even as you were listing off the things that “healing” meant to you and the impact doing this work has had on you, you were mentioning physical, emotional, and mental things that have come about. So it's not “Oh, I'm just gonna scribble in my notebook.” There's meaning behind it and there's things that come out that are really beneficial.

Liz DeBetta: Yeah, I think one of the important things about using writing as a tool for healing is that we're not just word vomit.

We're not just writing that all these terrible things happened. We're describing them, right? Specifically, we're using really deep, detailed descriptions of experiences, and that can come out in, like I said, in the images, in the details that you used to talk about who was there, when was it, what did it feel like?

But then we're also thinking about not only what happened, but how did it make me feel? How did it make me feel then, and how do I feel about it now? And so always like having that sort of conscious process of checking in with ourselves and saying, okay, I am writing, and I need to write about this.

And often that's what happens, right? Is like the feeling, or at least for me anyway, the feeling gets too much and I have to do something with it. I can't keep holding it inside me or it's going to eat me up. I don't want to hold that. I don't want to sit there for a week feeling (beep) inside.

I want to do something. And it comes out as a poem usually. I did this yesterday. I was having a really complicated set of emotions surrounding Memorial Day. My brother, who's also adopted, is a vet. Severe, complex trauma from both being adopted and his time on active duty.

And there's a lot of really complicated stuff going on with him and my family. And we watched Da 5 Bloods on the night before. And that story is about a group of Vietnam vets and one of them said things that were so close to some things that my brother has said, and it hit me really hard.

And I woke up yesterday and I was feeling all of this stuff and I was like, I gotta do something with it. So I wrote a poem to help move some of that stuff, and so that's an active agency too, right? That I can do. That I have control over the things that are going on. I can choose to do something about it.

So I chose to sit down and feel what I was feeling and write it. And that's another reason why writing is both powerful and accessible for everyone. Louise DeSalvo in her book Writing as a Way of Healing says that writing is an act of freedom we often felt we didn't have. She also says that through writing we change our relationship to trauma because we gain confidence in ourselves and our ability to handle life's difficulties.

Through writing and changing our relationship to trauma, we come to a feeling that our lives are more coherent rather than chaotic and that we can solve problems. And she says also that because our writing, our work of art, is a concrete object, it becomes a memorial and a testimony to the resolution of the mourning process.

And so that sort of connects back to what we were talking about earlier with the container, right? Like the poem is the container. And so I'm going through a mourning process of not having a relationship with my brother anymore because he's really damaged and it's really sad.

And he's really angry. And so that poem became the concrete object where I could memorialize and create a testimony to my own grief and that sense of loss around that relationship, but also where it's coming from.

Haley: Thank you for sharing those things. So powerful. Before we do our recommended resources, I'm wondering if you would give the folks listening, a writing prompt or two if they're new to this, if it feels scary to me. One or two things that we could start doing. What's beginner level?

Liz DeBetta: The thing that's popping up right now is two things. I often like to find inspiration in other things. So sometimes like a word or a phrase or part of a sentence from something else that I've read will inspire me, and I'll start with that. So if you have a particular line or quote that speaks to you for some reason, that could be a good way in. Another thing I like are letters. You can write letters to yourself, and this was actually one of the really hard activities. So maybe this is not great, but I'm gonna suggest it anyway.

Like we can write a letter to our younger self. For some of us as adopted people, that's really hard because we still haven't really fully embraced that little person. But it can be really helpful to do that as an exercise, over a week or two weeks or a month. Take 10 minutes every day and engage with that part of yourself and say the things that you needed to hear. Things that maybe never were told to you that you, as your adult self in your full power now, have the ability to say, “Hey, I see you, I'm sitting with you and we're okay.” Or just letters to people that you need to say things to. And you don't ever have to send them. And if it's hard to write in the first person, shift that and write in the third person.

Because then it puts you outside. When you shift.

Haley: You're the observer.

Liz DeBetta: You become the observer instead of in the story, right? And then as it gets easier, then you can shift back. And you can rewrite it in that first person narrative when it feels more comfortable and when it feels less intense.

Haley: I love it. All right, so we got the beginner level and intermediate level.

Liz DeBetta: There you go.

Haley: Oh, that's so good. Okay, what do you want to recommend to us today?

Liz DeBetta: Okay, so there's so many really good books, but what I chose today to share with everyone is a book called Writing as a Way of Healing: How Telling Our Stories Transforms Our Lives by Louise DeSalvo, who's a writing teacher.

And the book is based on 20 years of research that she accumulated in teaching writing and also connected to some of the stuff I talked about earlier. She pulls in a lot of the research, but also her own experience. And what I like about the book is that it's both about the way that writing can help us and it's backed up by the research.

But also she makes sure to continually discuss the idea that we need to have balance when we write. If we're just writing about negative experiences, that's not going to be good for us, right? We need to write both about the negative and the positive and create what she calls balanced narratives.

Each chapter is followed by some writing activities and exercises, so for people that want to start writing and aren't sure how to do it, this is a really nice kind of overview of all the things that we've talked about today, like this idea of using writing for healing and how we do it and why we do it.

Haley: I like that. I like that balanced approach. Because I could see how, if you're just constantly writing all the horrible things, that's what gets stuck, right? You're not shifting anything.

Liz DeBetta: Exactly. Yeah. And that can actually create negative health outcomes. But it's because you get stuck in a negative feedback loop when you’re just focusing on the bad. But actually there's good too, right? There's always good.

Haley: Yes. Thank you. That's great. Fabulous recommendation. You mentioned earlier that you had presented on your seven week group and the outcomes, and I think I've mentioned before on the show this year that the Rudd Adoption Conference was virtual, and so their focus was adopted adults. Connections across generations. And so your presentation was the last one to wrap up this year for 2021. And so I'll make sure to link to that. So you talk more about the group and what's really special, and Rudd actually linked both videos you have. There's two participant videos.

There's a shorter one and a longer one where people in your group are reading some of the work they did with you and some of the writing. It's very powerful. And then they're also a part of your presentation and talking about some of the things you shared today about the impacts and I was there live, on Zoom. I think I was making dinner, but I was listening and it was just wonderful and accessible and really interesting.

And I highly recommend you go and check that out. And the other presentations that Rudd offered are also on their YouTube channel, so I'll link to those things. Then the other thing that you and I have in common, is we're both Adoptees Connect facilitators. And now that, I was just gonna say, now that Covid is wrapping up, I don't know, it's not really everywhere, but a lot of the Adoptees Connect groups are meeting in person again, we're still doing online here in Alberta because, yeah, that's just how it is.

But the founder of Adoptees Connect, Pamela Karanova just announced that they are now planting more groups. So if connecting with other adult adoptees has felt important to you, and if anything, what Liz was sharing about the power of community today felt important to you.

I would encourage you to go to the Adoptees Connect website and see if there's a group near you that you can join. And if not, you're the person. Tag you're it. You can start it. You don't have to be a therapist. You don't have to have any credentials. You have to be an adult adoptee who's willing to connect with other adult adoptees.

And that's been one of great gifts in serving the community and I've felt very blessed by doing it. Meeting new members and we have new people coming all the time to our group. We're still really small, but it's really cool to connect with other adult adoptees, especially people that haven't been in the community before and have no idea about the impact adoption has had on them.

And they're reaching out for resources and you could be the person that starts a group in your area. So I'd recommend you go and check out Adoptees Connect. Do you have any thoughts on Adoptees Connect, Liz?

Liz DeBetta: Yeah, I think that, again, we talk about the importance of adoptee-only spaces and adoptee-centric spaces and Adoptees Connect is one of the really important opportunities that we have to come together in community. It's about building a community where we can just come together and share ourselves and our stories in a non-judgmental, social way.

And we, my group in Salt Lake City, just got together a couple weekends ago for the first time in person after hosting on Zoom off and on throughout the pandemic. And we had two new members. It's been a slow grow for us here over the last couple of years, but people are finding each other and people are coming. I think the more opportunities we have to create community together, I think it's another tool for healing.

And why it's been important for me is that I can bring more people together.

Haley: Absolutely, yes. Thank you. So speaking of that, where can we connect with you online and where can we sign up if we're interested in doing this writing experience with you?

Liz DeBetta: Yeah, so I have a waiting list is the best way to put it. So lots of folks are interested and in order to keep myself sane and organized I will send you the link to the original Google form that folks can add their info to. They'll just have to skip through the part that says, are you available for all sessions? And just say no. Because it's from the Rudd, the original Rudd writing group that is already over. But for everyone that is including their information on that Google form, I will have your contact info and then as things develop, I will be able to keep in touch and let you know what's coming next. Things are still a work-in-progress, but I hope to do much more of this, as much as I can.

Haley: Love it. Wonderful. And what's your website? And I'll make sure to link to that form and your other contact info in the show notes. But where can we find you?

Liz DeBetta: So my website is currently not live. It's a work-in-progress, but it is my name: LizDeBetta.com. So easy. In the interim folks can look for me on Facebook.

Haley: Sounds good.

Liz DeBetta: And if it's okay, I would love to leave you all with a poem.

Haley: Yes. I can't wait.

Liz DeBetta: I also think about poems as gifts. And so this is for you and for all of us who might need to hear this right now.

“I am here, finally, fully, frightfully aware of me, myself, and I. I who has been afraid to be here, afraid to be me, afraid to present myself, my flaws and my imperfectly perfect self. I am here now knowing nothing is impossible because I am possible. I am me moving through grief, moving through pain, moving through fear to find peace in myself, with you, and in my circumstances. I am here unapologetically. For the first time the fog has lifted. I am free. Free from shame, free from guilt, free from my own self-doubt. I am free to be me, myself, and I.”

Haley: Thank you for that wonderful gift.

Liz DeBetta: You're welcome.

Haley: Oh my goodness, I cannot believe this is the last episode until the fall. It's our summer break and normally I would go to the end of June, but just because of COVID and having the kids at home, I know I've told you about this in the last couple episodes. This is just how it worked out. So I am taking the break.

I'll be ready and refreshed to come to you with new episodes in September. And there's a huge back catalog, so I am sure you couldn’t have possibly listened to all 187 episodes, have you? Scroll back if there are things you haven't checked out yet. There's so many good episodes. I'm sure you can find a gem or two to listen to during the break.

And there's still going to be new episodes for my monthly Patreon supporters. So if you go to AdopteesOn.com/partner. You can find out details of how to join us there. We are still hosting our monthly book club. This month we are talking about The Guild of the Infant Savior with Megan Culhane Galbraith, which is a fabulous book. So excited to be reading that with her this month.

We have Barbara Sumner in July. We are going to have a round table in August. So many good things coming up, even during the summer break. So if you can't get enough and going through the back catalog is not gonna do it for you, come join us on AdopteesOn.com/partner for the Patreon bonuses.

There's a weekly podcast there called Adoptees Off Script, and they're all ready to go for you. There's over a hundred episodes there. So if you really want to go back and binge listen, there is more. I am so grateful for each one of you for listening. I am truly honored that I get to do this for you, to be in your earbuds and on your hikes and walks and commutes and when you're doing the dishes.

Thank you for allowing me into your ears and I know it's so annoying that I say thank you a lot. I'm sorry. It's a Canadian thing. It's an adoptee thing. It's a people-pleasing thing. It's just my quirk, I guess. Anyway, thank you so much for listening and I look forward to talking to you again very soon.

In September, we'll be back with brand new episodes of Adoptees On so make sure you're subscribed or following wherever you listen to podcasts. Let's talk again soon.

184 [Healing Series] Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/184


Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we are going to meet a new to Adoptees On psychologist and do a hybrid episode. So we'll hear some of her story and throughout we'll be talking attachment challenges and how adoption trauma can display throughout our lives. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Dr. Sharon Stein McNamara. Welcome, Sharon.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Hi. Good to be here.

Haley Radke: I would love it if you would share a little bit of your story with us.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Sure. So I was adopted in 1959. I was adopted through Children's Home Society of Minnesota, and my birth mother at the time was 19. [00:01:00] One thing I have just recently found out that I'm so excited about is that there's a Minnesota History Museum, that there's a book that's come out about the Booth Memorial Hospital of the Salvation Army, and I was born in that hospital. That's where the unwed mothers went to give birth. Anyway, so I was adopted by two people who couldn't have children on their own. They were infertile. My mom and dad are Betty and Bill Stein. They're both dead now. But it was a difficult adoption, I think, in that they waited seven years. They never told me exactly why, but that they kept on getting turned down by Children's Home Society. I later found out that it was probably due to my father having been a World War II veteran and that [00:02:00] he had some PTSD, but that wasn't until I got the papers later. I actually did get all my records. I petitioned the court.

Haley Radke: So even then, they knew to kind of watch for PTSD symptoms. That's interesting in a home study.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yeah, a little bit. They didn't really. They just mentioned that he seemed to be more anxious.

Haley Radke: But after seven years, they got the go-ahead stamp anyway.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Well see, the story is that my dad called and said, Hey, we've been waiting all this time. What's going on? We're gonna go to Lutheran Social Services if you don't give us a baby. And so then they gave me to them. So it’s sort of interesting to think about the decision. Of course, back then they did the matching of eyes. I had both parents have blue eyes and I have blue eyes and brown hair. So they, actually more than intellectual matching, they did eye color and hair color. That kind of thing. [00:03:00]

Haley Radke: So that was so you could blend in, so people wouldn't know.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Right. But yeah, my parents basically were told that we were blank slates, that they were to tabula rasa. And so I have a younger brother and a younger sister. My brother's two years younger, and my sister's five years younger. But yeah, that was the family, and it wasn't really ever discussed why my parents couldn't have children. I later found out that my father had mumps in the service that caused infertility. But it was a secret growing up, what was wrong that they couldn't have their own bio children.

Haley Radke: Okay, so your other siblings were adopted then as well?

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yes. I found my birth mother when I was 22. So gosh, when was that? It was in the [00:04:00] '80s, right after graduation from college. And she was willing to see me, to meet me. She said she had been thinking about it every day or every year at least on my birthday. And so she had wanted to have a connection. In the long run, when I look back over my family history, the person that I have the most anger or confusion or upset with is her father, my birth mother's father, because he was the one who said, We can't deal with a baby. You can't keep her. And so I know all that retrospectively, but...

Haley Radke: And so you found her just a couple years after for you in age that she was when she relinquished you.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Right. She was 19, and I was 21 or 22. I think it was 22. Yeah, so I learned all about therapy because I went to therapy from [00:05:00] college age on, and then being interested in psychology, I ended up wanting to go on and study more. But I knew nothing about trauma or developmental trauma or anything until I went to The Girls Who Went Away, the woman who wrote that book, Anne Fessler. And I remember being in the audience listening, and she kind of looked at me because I asked a question and she said, Well yeah, this is trauma. You having been pulled away from your birth mother, that's a traumatic incident. Animals don't do that to their young. She was the first one that I remember hearing about comparing things, like how a shepherd, if a shepherd knows that the baby lamb has lost its mother, they have to do all [00:06:00] kinds of elaborate stuff to get the mother sheep to take the baby lamb. They have to put the smell of the dead baby on the new baby to make the mother accept it. And I was like, Oh my gosh, we do all that for animals? And then, they just hand over a newborn baby? So in my case, I know–and I've done a lot of therapy, a lot of work on myself–I believe that because I was in a foster home for the first six weeks, so I know I was a breach birth, 48 hours in labor, and this is from the Booth Brown house where, my birth mother has told me the story, and she said I was breach and probably had possibly even a dislocated hip as an infant being born. So they put me with a foster parent to watch and see if everything was going to be okay. [00:07:00] And she said she remembered visiting me. She wasn't sure about relinquishing and she went back and forth, but in the end, her father basically said, Look, we're not gonna help you. And my birth father, first father, whatever, was not wanting to marry her. So it was back in the day when a woman alone couldn't be an unwed mother. It was just not allowed.

Haley Radke: So you went to a screening of Anne Fessler's documentary and that's where you first learned about attachment trauma. Can you tell me where were you in your training to become a psychologist? Had you already become a psychologist?

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yes, I was already a psychologist. They never talked about it. I went to a developmental psychology program, Harvard, the Graduate School of Education in Developmental Psychology. And I don't know if you've heard [00:08:00] of Joyce Maguire Pavao. She was ahead of me in that same program, and so she was the first person that I had ever spoken to who really studied adoption. And she was older than I was, but I went to some of her trainings and I got to learn, you know, I've been to her retreats in Provincetown. Provincetown is where she had them, and I think she's retired now. But anyway, I learned a lot from her just later reading her books. But yeah, they did not talk about anything about babies and developmental trauma. It was much later that the brain stuff started to come out about like, yeah, the baby is actually searching for the heartbeat and the smell and the sound of the mother's voice. All that is wired into a baby, an infant that's born is looking for that sound, that connection. [00:09:00] And then, I don't know if you've seen the new documentary. I saw the trailer, but I'm really excited about the Primal Wound documentary that's coming out because it shows just some of the photos of those infants just crying and crying and crying. And then we knew some stuff about Bowlby. He was the psychologist that studied both animal development and human development, and he talked about this terrible depression that babies would go through when they were separated from their mothers. And so I remember my adoptive mother said to me, Yeah, all three of our adopted children cried all the way home from the Children's Home Society. And, see, later I found out that I had sleep and eating issues; those have been constant issues with me. While a lot of it has to do with the fact that you didn't get sleep training because [00:10:00] the adoptive parents didn't know that it's not normal for a baby to just cry herself to sleep. They told me they didn't know how to put me to sleep. They would just leave me to cry and just leave me in the room until I would probably just disassociate or pass out as an infant. And that's what they thought was normal, I think.

Haley Radke: My parents said that I had colic, right? And colic is sort of this diagnosis they give anything. They're like, Oh, they cry a lot. It's probably colic. It's this, what do you call it? It's not a specific diagnosis. And there's so many of us that that's what our parents would have said about us: Oh, they're just colicky. They're colicky.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yeah. And I remember even as a three-year-old, my little brother coming along and they said he was a colicky baby. And so yep, that was the diagnosis.

Haley Radke: Okay. So I gotta ask you, Sharon, [00:11:00] looking back, you've been a practicing psychologist for years, and to know that so many of your colleagues had the same training as you, and you're an adopted person, so you looked into this, and something drew you to go to Anne Fessler's documentary screening. And so then you learned and you figured that out. But that means, and I think it's pretty obvious, it's been demonstrated by a lot of my guests whose therapists don't get it, that there's so many people who were trained in the era you were trained, and later, that had no idea about this.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: That's right. And even now, I'm on a listserv of psychologists. We know now that there are adoption-competent psychologists or therapists, in that they do special training. But overall in mental health, it's not considered that you have to [00:12:00] have a specialty in this in order to do the good work. But every once in a while, I'll see a posting by somebody saying, Oh, I have this adopted person, and no matter what I try, they have this negative view of themselves, and they can't seem to get out of it. And I keep trying to do cognitive restructuring and…. Yeah, it doesn't work because it's so deep. It's a primal, primal wound. What I have found is that the most healing thing is EMDR that has a focus on pre-verbal early development. There's a book called When There Are No Words that I use a lot. It's an EMDR book about rewiring the emotional system. When There Are No Words: Repairing Early Trauma and Neglect From the Attachment Period with EMDR Therapy by Sandra Paulsen. That's a book that has helped me a great deal and I've done this protocol [00:13:00] myself in my own recovery. And it's really gotten at some of the core trauma response. I don't know about you, but I have, still now, a high startle response; I easily jump, and this is trauma. It's kind of hardwired.

Haley Radke: Yeah. And for those of you who are asking what's EMDR? There is an episode on EMDR in the back catalog so you can go and listen to a little bit more on that. Yeah, that's fascinating. I've done EMDR myself, and I've heard of a lot of adoptees that have used it to their great benefit. I noticed that you also use dialectical behavior therapy.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yes.

Haley Radke: That's a mouthful. What's that?

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: That's a therapy that was originally created by Marsha Linehan. She's a psychologist and adapted cognitive behavioral therapy to [00:14:00] include this thing called dialectical behavior therapy. It's basically looking at black-and-white thinking or extreme polarities and trying to find a middle ground between. So that's why it's called dialectic. The two sides are either doing complete acceptance. And as adoptees, the first thing we have to kind of do is accept that there's no control over the fact that you aren't being raised by the people who are genetically related to you. So all you can do is a form of acceptance: Okay, I accept that these are the people that I have to be raised by right now. Later you can decide to end that relationship if you choose, but as a child you really can’t. So it's the two sides of the dialectic, the big teeter-totter, basically is can [00:15:00] you change the situation or do you need to accept the situation? So there's change strategies and acceptance strategies. This is an interesting piece and I'm curious. I know that this is for anybody who might be listening who has an interest in adoption, whether they're adoptive parents or birth parents or adoptees or bio sibs or whatever. But the piece that is most difficult for me as an adoptee is not so much having that relinquishment piece, it's that my adopted parents hadn't done their grieving about their own loss of not having bio children, and they also were fairly self-absorbed people. I was there for them. They wanted a child and they got a child. It wasn't so much, Oh, this child needs us and we're gonna try to figure out what she needs. [00:16:00] It was more, we need her. So you know, I was a good adoptee. I adapted. I figured out what they wanted and figured out how to pretty much please my adoptive parents. That was my upbringing. My sister was more "Fine, I can't do what they want, so I'll rebel.” And so it was a somewhat difficult childhood in terms of having two girls that were quite different from each other. And of course you're going to create the family that you have with the siblings that you have. My brother was in the middle, so he just figured out how to try to make everybody happy. But yeah, we had these two things, two sides that my sister and I acted out.

Haley Radke: What can it do to someone to be the good adoptee and to just kind of give in [00:17:00] and be molded into what's expected instead of being allowed to be your own self?

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yeah. And I think that if you know that survival is to be what they want, what your adopters or your adoptive parents want from you, you're going to figure that out and just do what they want, and I do think you give up pieces of yourself. It was clear. I figured out that they wanted someone who was good in school, so I was a straight-A student. I was going to figure out how to be the very best student I could be. It also gave me some freedom from home, so that was a win-win thing. And so that I raced through college and went on to get a PhD or in my case, an Ed.D. in psychology because it was a safe place to feel like I could fulfill my parental wishes. [00:18:00]

Haley Radke: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. There's so much weight put on the expectations. It's just so weighty, I feel like, for so many.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yeah. And then not even knowing what is it you inherited from these other people that you have a genetic makeup from. Like, is there a musical ability? I don't know if you got yours, but when I was a child, they did give me that piece of paper that's called the social history from Children's Home Society, and I would read that over and over and over again. And in my case, it said-

Haley Radke: So a lot of people would call that non-identifying information, right?

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Right. The non-identifying information. Yes, the social history piece. I remember reading that my birth mother and her sisters had musical ability, and I like to sing. So that was [00:19:00] maybe a little clue to who I am genetically.

Haley Radke: So now with your training and you're looking back on all these things, what do you think is one of the critical pieces of information for adopted people to know about the impact being separated from their first mother has had on them?

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: So the biggest piece–and I lived this and I learned it out of trial and error–is you're very vulnerable. Most adoptees, at least my experience has been that during adolescence it's a very vulnerable time because you don't have these pieces of information about who am I? Where did I come from? Having missing pieces makes adolescence really difficult. So one of the things that I'm actually working on is a memoir, a healing [00:20:00] memoir about my personal history and what I've learned as far as healing as an adoptee. So one of the most painful times for me was I had trauma all throughout my childhood but I didn't know it. I still remember going to kindergarten at a new school. I was sent on the school bus by my mother and she didn't think there was a problem. Well, I missed the school bus. I got lost and I completely freaked out so badly that I was just sobbing and I literally dissociated. I remember blacking out and then coming to with my mom there and the teacher saying, What's the problem? Your mom is here. She came to pick you up. But I thought that I was gonna be left forever at school. I think adoptive parents and adoptees don't realize, Oh, you mean [00:21:00] other people don't have that kind of abandonment fear? It doesn't go all the way to where you think you're gonna die? And see, that's what adoptees have because we were traumatized to feeling like we were gonna die when we had that original loss. You're listening for the voice, you're smelling for the smell, you're listening, your brain is thinking you're gonna die because you're with strangers now. The people that are supposed to take care of you are gone. So then that repeated throughout. I mean, I had episodes where my parents left me with a babysitter and didn't come home, and, again, I would have a panic attack, anxiety. I know people that watch This Is Us, the adoptee in that television show will sometimes have high anxiety, and yeah, I was exactly like that. And then when I had [00:22:00] my first breakup, I was 17, fell in love, was completely boundarylessly in love, just merging with this boyfriend. And then when he broke it off, I became suicidal. I said things in my head like, if I am going to be alone and not have him, I don't want to live. And it took several months, but I almost got hospitalized. I didn't, but I did have chronic thoughts of suicide after that breakup.

Now I look back and I'm like, Oh yeah, that was because your early infant trauma got triggered and the feeling is I'm gonna die, so I might as well make myself die, because I can't deal with this pain. I did get good therapy and was at that time able to work through that. But I [00:23:00] remember seeing the movie Ordinary People when his brother had died in that film, and he had the same kind of thing, like this feeling of, oh my gosh, I can't live. In his case, I think it was more survivor's guilt, but it was definitely a trauma reaction.

Haley Radke: Yeah. That's really hard. I'm sorry little Sharon was going through that.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Thank you, Haley. Yeah. I do think that I am a good therapist because I'm not afraid of…. Other therapists have never experienced the level of pain of abandonment that most adoptees have gone through. So another thing is that you want a therapist who's not afraid of that level of pain and is able to be there with you with that deep, I mean, when people regress to [00:24:00] that infant-like state, they're wailing as if, oh my gosh, I'm gonna die right now. And some therapists really have never experienced somebody being in that much pain psychologically.

Haley Radke: I mean, you've said it several times. The book called it the primal wound. That's, yeah, very aptly named. I want to make sure we have space for the other side. So when adoptees are discovering that they have all these things happening in life, and maybe there's a root cause somewhere. Lots of people discover my show and they're like, Whoa, I never thought adoption could have been…. Talk to us about the hopeful side. Once you see the primal wound and talking about developmental trauma and all of the buzzwords that we use all the time, once we know that, what's on the other side of that for [00:25:00] us? Talk about the hope. Let's not get stuck.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Oh, absolutely. So I think of multiple layers of recovery. So the first recovery for me was after having suicidal thoughts. And the other thing is I had a negative belief that I didn't know I held onto, which was I'm just a random accident. I have no purpose to be here. I was just born by accident. In fact, I felt almost like a burden sometimes, and this is partly because my adoptive parents sometimes complained. They would say things like, oh, you kids are so expensive or I can't believe how much you cost us. And I'm like, Okay. Other kids probably wouldn't have picked up on that and felt bad, but adoptees do. They internalize all that with, oh, I guess I'm a big burden on them. Wow, I had better be perfect or [00:26:00] I better be good enough so I don't get thrown out. So those unconscious beliefs were in my mind and it was actually a spiritual piece that helped me. One of the therapists that I had talked about said, Just because your first mother and father couldn't keep you doesn't mean that you weren't meant to be here. Maybe you have a bigger purpose than you understand. Maybe there's a spiritual purpose. Maybe there's something that you don't fully comprehend that is your purpose here. And this may sound a little, I don't know, woo-woo or out there, but this literally happened to me. I had a spiritual experience. There was a time when I was thinking about killing myself. And I had an experience of, now I think maybe it was [00:27:00] like some kind of ancestor medicine or something. But a woman came to me and just kind of spoke to me. This was just thoughts. It wasn't like I had a vision or a hallucination. But I remember feeling that it was a presence, and she just said, You have more to do in this life. You have more to give here, and you will know later. You won't know, but you will help a lot of people. And so that actually settled me right down. I had this emotional relaxing, Oh, okay, yep, so it wasn't a big mistake. I am meant to be here. Even though it wasn't my parents' plan, it was somebody's plan. And then that helped me. I haven't had the same level of suicidal thoughts since then.

Haley Radke: That's beautiful. I was at an event fairly recently where Zara Phillips and Gabor Maté were talking about the [00:28:00] trauma of relinquishment. And Gabor Maté expressed that because some people are uncomfortable with talking about the spiritual kind of side of things, or whatever, and he expressed it so beautifully. I want to share it again here in case you missed that. He said: "Life wants life, and life wanted you." And I just thought that was such a beautifully expressed sentiment, and it was very powerful. And yeah, for so many of us who just literally feel unwanted. Life wanted you. Oh, powerful.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yes, he is an incredible healer. I have listened to several of his films; he does continuing education. So yeah, I like his work. But I will go listen to that podcast. So thank you for that.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Okay, so that's one layer. That's a big deal. What else? [00:29:00]

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Well, the other thing is relationships. I know a lot of adoptees struggle with relationships. So in my case, I had a repetitive pattern of getting attracted to men who were not able to commit. And guess what? I was doing that replay of probably my birth father's drama with my birth mother. Here you get into this intense relationship and then can't stay. And so what oddly happened for me is the way to break that pattern was first I found my birth mother, but it wasn't until I think I was 35, and I kept having these relationships that didn't work. Finally, when I found him and I met him, everything shifted for me, and I was able to have a long-term relationship [00:30:00] that I'm still married to my husband now. The key to it is, and I wouldn't have known, that in psychodynamics they talk about how we keep replaying these early wounds. Or that which is repressed is destined to be repeated. That's a Freudian phrase. So when I brought it out into the open, I was able to... My birth father he's gone now. Anyway, he was not really very capable of talking much with me. He felt incredibly guilty with the wife that he married after he left my mother. She knew about me but they were quite conflicted about what to do about me, so there was a lot of drama about that. So he would call me when he was alone, but he [00:31:00] didn't want me to come to his home. He didn't want me to meet her. He didn't want me to meet my half-siblings. Not until as an adult was I finally able to meet my half-siblings. But these relationships are incredibly complex. You've got four sets of parents. Not sets, but four parents, birth mother, birth father, adoptive mother, adoptive father, and then how do you manage all these parents and siblings and half? It's complicated to be able to finesse it. So anyway, long story short, what happened to me was seeing him and grieving for that and understanding that he couldn't have been able to be in my life freed me up to break that pattern of having these men who couldn't commit. And so then I was able to marry my husband and we're still together. But [00:32:00] also, I married a man who is incredibly patient and capable. I'll occasionally still, even now, he'll be down in the basement working, and I'll think he's left the house, and I'll be like, Where are you? Where are you? I've lost you. I've lost you. Are you here? And, I’ll walk around the house yelling his name because there's still the baby part of me that's going, This person that I'm supposed to be attached to isn't really gonna stay. They're gonna leave.

Haley Radke: I appreciate you saying that so much, Sharon, because that connected a dot for me like big time. Because we moved recently. We used to live in a very tiny house, and now we have a bigger, a bit of a bigger house, so it could be that we don't know where each other is. It's not imagined. It's just a normal house. But if I don't know where Nick is, yeah, I have a little voice asking, Where is he? And if one of my kids asks me where he is, I get really irritated [00:33:00] because I'm like, First of all, look yourself. Second of all, now I don't know where he is. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Wow. Yeah. That's interesting.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yup, it's your little inner abandoned kid that's still getting triggered.

Haley Radke: Why not? Why not just add one more thing to the list of things to talk to my therapist about. Perfect. Okay, great.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yeah. I also know Betty Jean Lifton was a wounded healer in this area and, certainly, there's several adoptees who are also therapists. I do think it adds a dimension when you have lived it yourself plus you are in the healing profession. There just is a plus to it, if you've worked through your stuff, to be able to offer it to others.

Haley Radke: And there are so many adoptees that [00:34:00] choose various healing professions. I've seen that a lot. And I didn't realize this at the time, but my degree is in psychology. I'm not a psychologist, but it's interesting, right? When you're in your teen years, late teens, and going into university and picking psychology, it's like how do I get to know myself, right? How do I figure out human behavior and all that? I think it was a cry to find myself.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yes. Very much for me too, but it's interesting because I couldn't really own it until later. I went through my whole graduate school program and I studied compulsive gambling because that was okay because my adopted grandfather had a gambling problem. So that was allowable. But to study abandonment [00:35:00] trauma or developmental trauma, it wasn't until later that I really realized that. And also addictions. I certainly know many adoptees have them because we're trying to block out such emotional pain, and it's attractive to use drugs or alcohol to numb that until you can do your full grieving and acceptance of the pain.

Haley Radke: Totally. Wow. Okay. I know that you brought a recommended resource, but before we get to that, is there anything else that you want to share with us or thoughts you want to leave us with?

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yeah. It's a difficult thing to talk about. I have done a lot of work on forgiveness because I couldn't really move through the pain without getting to the other side and getting to where [00:36:00] I don't think of forgiveness as acting like it didn't matter. Forgiveness is not saying, Oh, I never had pain because I'm just gonna act like it didn't happen. No. Forgiveness is the acceptance that people did things to us, adoptees, and that we have to reduce our expectations that they could have acted differently. So I have forgiven all four of my parents and done a real piece of work on how much I got hurt by their choices and the pain that I went through and releasing the expectations that they could have done things differently. And this I was taught through a person who is actually a first mother. Mary Hayes Grieco, and she wrote the book that I mentioned, the audiobook called Ambushed by Babies. And one of the [00:37:00] stories is about the relinquishment she went through. And she also has other children so she talks about being a mom and all the pieces of being a mother. But she's also a forgiveness trainer and has helped me a great deal with that because at the end of the day, we can't ever go back and no one can make up for the loss that happened. It is what it is. So radical acceptance and releasing my expectations. And I've even gone so far as to do ancestral healing because the grandparents played a role for both my birth father and birth mother. This was back in the late '50s when it was unacceptable to have a child who was pregnant out of wedlock. And [00:38:00] so my prayer is that the earth, the world, the whole world becomes more accepting of the fact there are complicated ways to have a family.

Haley Radke: I was just talking to someone about family preservation because I'm really passionate about it, and we were lamenting the current state of foster care and how, this is a long story. Anyway, there was a Twitter thread and someone was advocating for more foster families: “We gotta find families for these kids.” And someone just so succinctly and impactfully, I think, replied: "They already have families." And I don't know why that was such a light bulb moment for me, like, they already have families. We already had families, and to negate that and just gloss over it. [00:39:00] I don't think blank slate theory has really cleared out the way many people might have thought it had. Yeah, that's really impactful how you said that. I really appreciate that. So yeah, it's true. It's true. Thank you so much, Sharon, for sharing some of your story with us and some of the ways that you've found to help adopted people. Where can we connect with you online?

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: My website is sharonsteinmcnamara (dot) com, so that would be the best place, and I also have email. I can give you my email: sharonsteinmcnamara (at) gmail (dot) com.

Haley Radke: That's perfect. I will share both of those in the show notes, and I'm really thankful to have more adoptees who are therapists, psychologists in the world to serve our community. Thank you.

Sharon Stein McNamara, Ed.D.: Yeah, thank you. [00:40:00]

Haley Radke: Friend, I'm so glad you stuck around and hung out with me and Sharon today. I want to give you a couple of real-time updates, so if you are listening in real time when this episode is released, I'm Canadian, and I happen to live in Alberta, which is the province that, at the time of the recording, hopefully this has changed, but we are number one for COVID in North America, which isn't great. It's not great to be number one in that. But that means my kiddos have come home for online learning, and I'm sure you can understand that means it has a significant impact on the Adoptees On production capabilities. So I'm coming to let you know just a couple things. I have always [00:41:00] planned to have a break for the summer, and this year Adoptees On will be on pause for the summer and will be back in September with new episodes. I'm not going to be doing any replays. I've done that in the past, but there's a huge catalog, you guys. So many fricking episodes. I calculated out the hours the other day, and you can listen to six full days, night and day, of back catalog episodes. So I was like, Yeah, we're not gonna do replays. I had planned to take July and August off anyway, but now it's likely that we're going to wrap up earlier in June. So I'm going to finish all my episodes that I have recorded already, and we'll be bringing those for the next couple weeks. But just anticipate. See, I'm letting you know ahead of time because I know how hard it is to get surprised. You can just anticipate that Adoptees On will be on a break during the summer, and it's [00:42:00] just a little longer than I had intended because my kiddos are going to be home full days, every day, and Haley is switching to “mama teacher sorta” mode supervising the online schooling. I'm sorry about that. Literally out of my control.

But I want you to know if you are a Patreon member, if you're in the Patreon Facebook Group, I'll still be around. It's easier for me to do that than it is to record. I'm sure you can understand that. So yeah, I still have Patreon episodes going up every single week throughout the whole summer. A lot of those are already done, thankfully, and we're still doing Book Club. So if you feel a little nervous about Adoptees On not being there for you on Fridays, I'm on Patreon Adoptees Off Script every single Monday and once a month with Book Club. So if you want to support [00:43:00] the show and you want to make sure you hear a little bit of Haley every week…oh my gosh, that sounds so stupid, it is what it is.

It's true. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details of how you can access that and support the show and keep it sustainable. And don't worry, I will be back next Friday, the next couple Fridays, but just so you know, the break is coming. Adopteeson.com/partner for the Patreon bonuses. Thank you so much for those of you who support the show monthly or have given a yearly gift. It is huge to keep the show going. Thank you.

Thank you for listening, and let's talk again next Friday.

183 Paul Kimball

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/183


Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Episode 183, Paul. I'm your host, Haley Radke. I'm happy to introduce Paul Kimball to you today. Paul shares his story of search and reunion and how the joy of music intertwined him with his first mother. Paul shares deeply with us about his grief from both rejections and death. Family, music, and nature have brought so much delight into Paul's life. He challenges us to make sure we're choosing to experience all life has to give and not get stuck in the hard things. We wrap up with some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.com.

I want to let you know we do briefly mention death by suicide and suicidal ideation at two different points during the episode. Let's listen in. [00:01:00]

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Paul Kimball. Welcome, Paul.

Paul Kimball: Thank you, Haley. It is a pleasure to be here.

Haley Radke: You have the best smiley demeanor. It's my favorite.

Paul Kimball: Aw. I'm a music teacher. That's what we do.

Haley Radke: Oh. You give the happy energy, 100%. I would love it if you would start and share some of your story with us.

Paul Kimball: I was raised in Berkeley, California, in the '60s by a wonderful, hippie-esque liberal family which I enjoyed them very much. But as we all know, there's a story that happened before that. So my birth mother was a concert cellist, blonde hair, blue-eyed, did really well in her profession. She was on [00:02:00] a show called Top Tunes and New Talent, which was a spinoff of The Lawrence Welk Show. There have been newspaper articles on her. She did Carnegie Hall, Recital Hall, way back in the early '60s.

Haley Radke: I was going to say, Lawrence Welk, that's a bit of a throwback for some of us.

Paul Kimball: Oh I understand. For some of us, we enjoyed watching the show. Or at least it's a source of pride.

Haley Radke: I've heard of it.

Paul Kimball: Anyway, it's... Yes. It's the type of thing my parents used to watch. But she got together with an Armenian man who had come over from Iraq, along with the rest of his family. He was the first person to come over. And this is the early '60s, I guess it would be 1961-ish. And they got together. They were in a Methodist church, the Hollywood Methodist Church, where Back to the Future, part of it was recorded, etc. And so that's always kinda fun. My story's a little bit of a Forrest Gump of adoptees. You know, things happen here and there. [00:03:00]

Haley Radke: All the placeholders that everybody recognizes?

Paul Kimball: A little bit. So here she is in a well-to-do family, an only child. Her father was a pretty well-known lawyer. And she gets together with this foreign man, which especially back in those days, is something that you don't do. They have their big love affair and they are pregnant. Now, I don't think they told any family members this. So, as hard as this is to say, they went to Mexico, which borders California, to have an abortion. She, I guess in Mexico, got cold feet and they decided to not go through with it. [00:04:00] So right there in terms of feelings I've had my whole life, though I haven't known that my whole life, but the first inclination that you are somebody, that you are a living being, you're a problem, and somebody's got to do something with you. But that didn't happen. They went back to Los Angeles, and somewhere they must have broken up or broken up communication, I don't know how that worked. But they shipped my birth mother up north to a beautiful town called Fort Bragg, which is on the coast here, to have the baby. And she had me.

Meanwhile, I'm probably hearing the cello. I had to have been hearing the cello in utero. [00:05:00] And what I learned was I wasn't given up right away. She probably was one of those women that was talked into it. And so she kept me for about seven days. My birth grandparents did see me. I guess they said I was a beautiful baby. I got that from the non-identifying papers that you find. And we had that week together. So finding and knowing that I had a first mother for a week. So when I think of that severance, to me, it wouldn't have happened right away. It would have been a week later when she gives me to Children's Home Society. Meanwhile, she later ran into my birth father, [00:06:00] and I think she was with her father at the time, if I recall from the story, and told him that I had been aborted. So he never suspected anything. So they've got the family secret. He never told anybody, as far as I know, that she had been impregnated. He did tell them later in life that he had this former girlfriend. So there I was in foster care down in Oakland, California, at least through the Oakland Children's Home Society. I was in foster care for about four and a half months. I wish I knew who I was with. We can't find that information out in California. My Armenian birth father, whose name is Vahe, meanwhile, is here in the United States, had various jobs. Working in Yosemite National Park was [00:07:00] one of them, and he ended up being a carpet repairman of the super posh carpets that you get. And he married an Armenian woman and married another Armenian woman after her, who I know and love very much, Rebecca. Meanwhile, my birth mother is off giving recitals, being in Broadway pits, having a whole life as a musician. She was on a show, The American Symphony, conducted by Leopold Stokowski, who's the conductor in the first Fantasia movie, where Mickey Mouse says, "Hello, Mr. Stokowski, how are you?" That's him younger, but when he was older, he had this orchestra that she was in, and she told me later she would wish that I was watching it to connect, and that she had been in therapy for all of that. [00:08:00]

My adopted family, I have an older brother and two older sisters, and it was not infertility. It was just that my mom didn't want to be pregnant again. So they decided, Okay, we'll adopt. And so she said when I first appeared, I was crying. And it's interesting to think about these things now that I've learned so much listening to your program and reading other books and other programs. You start realizing why that kid probably was crying. I was about to be on my third mother. And I would love to go back and thank my foster mother as well. But my adopted mother said it was love at first sight, and so I had this great upbringing in crazy Berkeley in the arts. I was in plays. I played the French horn. I was in school orchestra. I was in a Bay Area group called the Bay Area Wind Symphony, which was a concert band, and all of these wild things. [00:09:00] It was just so fun with all of my friends.

And yet, there's just things that I did that weren't normal. As you would know, as your listeners would know, so many of us, you see somebody on the television, you think, Is that my mother? You see some Armenian person, and to me, it's the most beautiful human being I've ever seen. And it doesn't matter, it could be a young person, it can be an old man, old lady. They still are just intrinsically gorgeous to me. In high school, my then-girlfriend, who was a viola player, plays me a cello recording and it's this great cellist named Jacqueline du Pré. [00:10:00] And I've listened to so much music, but that music had such a primal feel to my psyche. I felt almost sick listening to it, and I didn't know why, because I didn't know anything about my birth mother except for that she'd been a musician. So I became obsessed with the cello. Obsessed! I have so many records, vinyl records, Haley, and CDs, and then of course iPod, and then you move on from there. But just the cello became so much to my emotional life. I listen to the Elgar Cello Concerto done by Jacqueline du Pré so often when I'm feeling something. Right before this broadcast, I listened to the slow movement of it. [00:11:00] I listen to Jackie play The Swan.

Haley Radke: Let me interject. I listened to that today to prepare for our chat because you mention it in your book. And I was like, Oh, that sounds interesting, so I played it. But I don't have the record.

Paul Kimball: Did you enjoy it?

Haley Radke: I did.

Paul Kimball: Good.

Haley Radke: It's beautiful.

Paul Kimball: Yeah. Absolutely. It's a standard. That was my upbringing, and I went to college at the University of the Pacific, which is only about an hour-and-a-half drive from where I grew up in Berkeley. But at that point you're really starting to feel it, and I remember crying to my parents on the phone saying, I want to find my birth mother. And I would've been in my early 20s, hadn't done anything about it.

Haley Radke: What did they say when you expressed that?

Paul Kimball: They did not object. It wasn't one of those situations. [00:12:00]

Haley Radke: Okay.

Paul Kimball: Also, I had written or I had spoken this little story when I was about four called “Scream,” and “Scream” is all about, it's this, just this little person named Scream who finds a pine cone, loses it, finds another pine cone, loses it, and then he loses himself. And then he has a little adventure in the forest and meets some different creatures and goes off with his newfound friends. And my dad, my adopted dad, recorded the story when I told it and wrote it down and put it in a book that he wrote. So that's pretty supportive, I think, from their angle. So fast-forward to college and crying, wanting to know my birth mother. [00:13:00] Then other things would happen, slight self-destructive personality traits that will come out and still do when I don't know what's going to happen. And I know on this show we go there. And here we are.

Haley Radke: Do you want to admit what they are? Sometimes I don't want to ask that because then I have to be like, Yeah, oh yeah, I do that, too.

Paul Kimball: No, basically just hitting myself. Just basically that. Nothing too extreme. And I even remember doing that as a young child and my dad being very concerned about that. And I didn't know why I was doing it. I still don't. But it's almost like I feel I've gotta punish this person. Must have done something wrong. This is my way of punishing who I guess I am inside. [00:14:00] That hole that we feel, that primal wound, as so many of us have read that book and feel. But anyway, I got a music degree, conservatory degree. So life goes on. Married a drama teacher who's now a principal. We're still together. Had a couple of kids, and that first kid, girl, who's born is that first time you experience anybody that you are related to, and it's an unbelievable experience, and I loved that child, Ashley. I still love Ashley. And I love Alyssa, our second child. And we did everything together. I have no parental guilt feelings about not spending enough time with my kids. I don't have it. No, I did those diapers. We did whole days together. They were in the [00:15:00] same school where I taught elementary school, and then they kinda went over to high school and I found myself teaching at the high school. Isn't that interesting? So I love them, but that also churns up where the heck did this blonde hair come from? Because I don't have blonde hair. I used to have dark hair, and now I have gray hair with a little bit of however it's coming over to you. For our listeners, you can just imagine.

So I decided to really search. And again, this is about the year 2000 when I started doing it. Found some books, didn't know the term “search angel,” but they had some references to different organizations that would help you find. So I just looked up one because they had a phone number, and called up Neil. Who's Neil? I don't know. [00:16:00] To this day I'd probably have to find the book, but I think he was somewhere in Oregon. A crusty guy who told it like it is, and he somehow was privy to information that you and I weren't able to see. So at one point he says to me, we had many late night phone conversations, he says, Why, hello, Frank P. Novak. I said, Who's that? -That's you. That's your original name. I said, How do you know? -I can't really tell you. I still to this day don't know how he did that. But anyway, he gave me lots of advice. And from what he was looking at on the birth information certificate, or maybe it was the information from Children's Home Society, we had three different names, and one of them was my birth mother's name. So this wasn't trolling the internet. This was, I guess, finding people's names. The internet was very young at that point. [00:17:00] There's not the social media deal, and there's not 23andMe and ancestry.com and all of those things. So I would make these phone calls, and I would get myself geared: Hi, this is... My name is Paul Kimball, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Are you my mother? I would obviously do it with more eloquence than that, and I had some-

Haley Radke: But, so you're just calling people with her name? Like, going down a list and just-

Paul Kimball: Yeah. What are similar to her name, one of the three names. I was chasing the wrong name, by the way, the whole time.

Haley Radke: Oh.

Paul Kimball: And I would have, Haley, these heartfelt conversations with people who told me, I wish you the best of luck, but it really isn't me. And so off we would go. But I knew one of the names, and I can say her name. When we finish this you'll know why. But one of the names was Wendy Brennan, and I knew her name. [00:18:00] I also had the non-identifying information from Children's Home Society, where, when I look at it, I find out that she's a cellist, which was mind-blowing. Mind-blowing, because I've spent so much time listening to the cello, loving the cello, having the cello professor at UOP, where I went to school, play me music because I love that. And as a conductor now, I often have cellists come and be guest artists. It's-

Haley Radke: So explain the moment, the mind-blowing emoji. What did that feel like? Did you know? Did you know then, Oh my gosh, that's why I love it?

Paul Kimball: Absolutely. Again you get the envelope. Here it is from Children's Home Society. Waited for everybody to go to bed, find some corner of some room to work up the courage to look at it and when they say [00:19:00] your birth mother was a concert cellist, it made perfect sense. And yet, I couldn't believe it because, keep in mind, when am I hearing that cello? I'm hearing her in utero. So babies know what's going on. We are attached to our birth mothers. It's real.

Haley Radke: And isn't music the thing that so many experts will say, Oh, make sure you're, put your headphones down by your belly, like when you're pregnant. You want to create this love of music and connection. That's one of the recommendations.

Paul Kimball: You better believe it. And for my own survival, I often played the horn right to my wife's pregnant belly so that the babies would be used to that so I could keep practicing. It was a little bit self-serving.

Haley Radke: I'm sure your wife loved that. She's, This seems a little loud right here, but okay.

Paul Kimball: You play it soothingly. You do your best. But anyway, that's a lot of information, and I was determined to find her and knew how old she was. She was 23 when she gave birth to me, so it was not a teenage thing like so many are. But anyway, so doing all the searching, lo and behold, I'm down in Los Angeles at my friend Dave Tull's house, who's a wonderful professional drummer, and I'm looking in his union book. And he and I, by the way, were all part of–or at least we were, I'm not anymore–the national musicians union, AF of M, American Federation of Musicians. So I'm looking at his chapter in LA. Now, LA, if you can imagine, it's filled with superstars. They're all in there. But it wasn't on some database. It was just a little book, if I recall, typewritten or typed. So of course, I just looked up her name, and there it was with two phone numbers, and I just went weak. [00:21:00] And he was so wonderful, and his wife was so wonderful, and I told them the whole story. So now I have these two phone numbers. So I come back from our vacation. Again, this is pre-cell phones. I'm not going to call anybody from there. One was a Los Angeles number, and the other was a New York number. And it said on the list cello/piano. So this is her. This is definitely the woman, and I think maybe it said the age or something or when she joined. It was so probably her. So I called these two numbers for about a week, and there was one answering machine, which I don't think I said anything on it, and the other would just ring and ring, the LA number. And finally, I guess about a week later, the LA number answers, and I had my script [00:22:00] ready in my head. I said something like, Greetings, this is Paul Kimball. I'm the third horn of the Stockton Symphony. Is Wendy Brennan available? So with that, if she needed to hang up on me, she could hang up, but she always would be able to find me because I literally said where I had a part-time job as a horn player and exactly where to find me if anybody wanted to do that. And she said, Yes, it is. I said something like, Don't know quite how to say this, but does the name Frank P. Novak mean anything to you? Which again, was my first name. And she said, It might. Then I don't know what the next exchange was, but [00:23:00] she says, Are you of Armenian descent by any chance? And that I said, Yes, I am, and I think we both know who we are. So this was the beginning of the honeymoon period, as we say in adoption land. We talked for three hours. We talked music. We talked so much. And she's a very flighty talker, even flightier than me. But you've got thoughts going everywhere. She mentioned that I had a half-sister, red hair, looks nothing like me at all, but anyway who had been in Julliard as a flute player when she was young. They had a junior program.

So all that happens, and I have never felt [00:24:00] that happy and fulfilled ever, and not since then, in terms of everything suddenly was complete. And I think what we all get from this experience of those of us that have done the search, those of us that have done the reunion, these are brand-new feelings that you cannot prepare for. You don't know what it's going to be. Even, I suppose, if you do your research, it just takes you. So I went and visited her that weekend, if I recall. Did the drive down, still don't know what she looks like. We didn't have Skype, Zoom, etc., Google Meet. We just talked on the phone. And I stayed at her condominium, and it was this surreal experience. You knock on the door, and here is this blonde lady talking to you, [00:25:00] probably early 60s at that point. And I go in. It was not what I thought it would be. And I hear you discuss this with lots of your guests. It wasn't quite the gigantic stars and firecrackers moment that I was hoping for, and yet it was very pleasant. And I think I spent two nights there. Met my birth sister, who definitely has a lot of issues. I looked at so much of her memorabilia, which I loved as a classical musician. I loved hearing all of these stories and seeing newspaper articles and posters and promo things. It was a dream come true. It was so the honeymoon.

Haley Radke: I don't usually ask these kinds of questions, but I'm going to, because for you, this is like [00:26:00] magical. Oh my goodness, you have this in common with her. What was it like for Wendy to know you were a musician and you got it? Like you, you rattled off some names earlier. I don't know that everybody knows, like who these artists are, whatever, like it, right? But if you're in it, and it's like a part of your life and your music career and all these things. What was it like for her? Do you know?

Paul Kimball: I think she really appreciated it. I played a little horn for her and she thought it was a nice sound, lovely horn tone, I think she said. And later on a different visit, both of my daughters at that point were violinists. One went on to be a cellist through high school and then she stopped playing and the other still plays. And she loved that. She loved listening to them and coaching them. So the honeymoon period was everything that you could want. Beautiful letters back and forth, beautiful phone [00:27:00] calls. And it was just fun. It was fun for us to relate on that level. LA was a safe place for her to meet me because it clearly was not her social scene in her life. Her social scene was in this orchestra that she plays in or played in every summer in Chautauqua, which is in New York. And they do a nine-week festival, fully professional orchestra of players from all around the United States and probably beyond that. I'd have to look that up. So one night she calls me and she is having a mental breakdown And in retrospect, I'm happy that I got to experience this firsthand. She was crying, sobbing, saying if people [00:28:00] find out about me, Paul, they're going to think that she's a slut, and she kept using the slut word. And you just go, Who called her that? What made her feel that? Again, she had me in November of 1962. What are these people going through? And she wanted to take herself to county mental health. But I was thinking, we can get through this. And I'm telling her, It's going to be okay. We will work through this. And so that happens.

And then not too much longer after that, she goes to Chautauqua to play in her orchestra. So I called her on her birthday, which, you know, you just go, Was this a huge mistake? I guess it wasn't because I'm part of this. I think I count, too. And yet maybe she was around people or something, but she was just stone cold [00:29:00] with me on the phone. And I thought, this is really a weird conversation. But I wished her the happy birthday, and that was it. She ghosted me. She ghosted me, and I didn't hear anything. Time passes. I think I wrote her a letter saying, I'm keeping my phone number. You have my address. You can call anytime. And that just sat there until September 11, 2001, when the World Trade Center gets hit by the planes. And at that point, I'm thinking, is she in New York? I don't know because she has a residence, she had a condo in New York and LA. What am I gonna do? So I called and left a [00:30:00] message. Well, not too much longer after that, my wife's parents come over, and they want to see me. Thinking, why me? What? Maybe it's somebody else in the family? I'm just sort of the husband. And Wendy called my mother-in-law and said everything to her, and it's so hard to say this, but the gist of this was: Never contact her again. She feels like I'm a stalker. I have a good life here. I need to concentrate on them. We were severed. She made that decision years ago, and I need to honor that. And I just felt like mud, especially the stalker word. I mean, in my professional life, I'm Mr. Kimball. [00:31:00] I'm the choir director. I'm the classroom music teacher. I enjoy bringing people's emotions together through music. I'm one of those people who’s like Switzerland often. If there's an argument, I'm the guy that can help settle that. So this was crushing. It was crushing. Suicidal thoughts? Absolutely. I think maybe my wife saved my life that night by just telling me that I was the dad of two wonderful young girls at that point. So I still kept teaching. Life goes on. All of that went on, but I went from that enormous high of being fulfilled to dropping to the bottom. And I remember I would always take some time, like on a Sunday afternoon, to just fall apart, just watch some stupid movie on the couch or something and just let it all [00:32:00] happen. I would dream about her. I would dream that, oh, she's come back, and you're really believing the dream until you wake up and that horrifying thought and realization that, no, that was a dream. She's not going to call back. As I had said earlier, we were part of the same large musicians union where you get a newsletter or news magazine, I guess, once a month. They have a section there called Taps for members that have passed. I thought, I'm just gonna check this, and if her name is on there, I'll know that she's passed. And I also kept tabs on her from afar, learning about her what I could on the internet, checking the Chautauqua Symphony website to see if her picture was still there this year, all of that. [00:33:00] So that world is churning.

Meanwhile, she gave me enough information about my birth father that I was able to find on a website Armenian carpets, and his last name was Farajian, and a phone number. Bay Area. I leave a message, and it's his younger brother, Vasken, who from the phone call basically figured it out because his older brother, Vahe, had been pining for his past girlfriend. Even though he's happily married, he still would mention her. Very emotional man. So anyway

Haley Radke: You're getting all the things passed down genetically.

Paul Kimball: Are you seeing it?

Haley Radke: Possibly. Possibly. I don't know.

Paul Kimball: Anyway, so [00:34:00] when Vasken and I talk, we figured it out. He had figured it out pretty much right then and there, and he did not mention this to his brother. And I want to say this was late October, early November. He lives in San Francisco, his younger brother, Vasken. So we agree to meet with his lovely wife, Tamar, and go over to San Francisco. And there it is, father's side of the family, and they are great. They are so loving. And Tamar's wonderful sisters are there, and Tamar's mom, and everybody is just so involved in the story. We ate so much food. They stuff you. There's always room for... You're like, I'm done, that's okay. And then comes more rice.

Haley Radke: Okay. You have to tell me what your favorite Armenian dish is.

Paul Kimball: Okay. I'm not so good at knowing, but they're these little–I'd have to ask my daughter–these round balls that they do with meat inside. [00:35:00]

Haley Radke: Okay, so it's like a savory.

Paul Kimball: Yes. So all of you Armenians listening to this, I apologize. I'll have to look up the name. You all know what it is. So anyway, he agrees. He comes up with a plan and just said, Let me wait till Christmas when they're all going to be together in LA and make the announcement there. And so that's what happened. And again, this is before cell phones. So I go off and have a good Christmas in Alameda with my adopted family, etc., and I am thinking, I wonder what happened in LA. This is gonna be interesting. So I come home, and again, I love how the tech changes, but back then we had answering machines, and there are two messages, one from my drummer friend saying, Merry Christmas, or whatever he had to say, and the second [00:36:00] one is from Vasken: Paul, Vahe is very excited to meet you and we all are, and we're going to stay up till, I think he said 1:00 or 1:30 at night. So please call us. And there's no way out of it. There's no way out of it. So again, I wait for everybody to go to bed. I work up the courage. I dial that number. It's like even half a ring: Hello, Paul. Vahe would like to say something to you. It was just that fast. And the first thing this man says to me is, "Son, I love you." He didn't even know I existed until that day. Big thick Armenian accent. We talked for just a little bit. And again, we agreed to have me go meet. And so I want to say it was two days later, three days, I think on the 28th, I get on an airplane to drive down to stay with them. So I don't have a rental car. [00:37:00] There is no place to run and hide and gather because I'm scared out of my gourd. I'm still ready to meet these people, etc. And there they were at the airport. Picked me up. There he was, disheveled, smoking, looking a lot like a Chico Marx, to me, of the Marx Brothers. You'll look these people up. You'll find them.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I'm sure I'll get that reference later. Yeah.

Paul Kimball: You will find that, yeah. But anyway, I end up at this wild party filled with Armenians incredulous of my existence. Because Armenians who survived the Armenian genocide back in [00:38:00] 1915 and scattered throughout the United States, they are very protective of their own people. So you add another Armenian, and they are big hugs. Come on over. And yet Vahe, who's a totally eccentric gentleman in this otherwise normal, very expressive family, just takes me for a walk and spills everything, including the abortion issue. And I got no place to think about that. I did not know that was coming because Wendy did not tell me any of that. But still met everybody and ended up at Vahe and his wife Rebecca's condo, just the three of us, at 1:30 in the morning, and we had a good cry. And I stayed with them for about two more days. My wife came by, I think, the day after [00:39:00] that with the two kids, and we ended up going. So that relationship lasted for about 13 years. Probably 12 years till he passed.

Meanwhile, as I said, I'm keeping tabs on Wendy. There's that biological pull, almost that sickness, that I just want to know more. I wanna know anything about her. I've gotta find this out, but I'm not gonna call her. I honored that. So you look up the symphony, you look up if she's referenced in books. I called the Lawrence Welk people. Because I wanted that film so badly. Because she plays The Swan, the piece that you listened to. She played it, I think, as a 17-year-old on the show and got fan mail. I would do anything to see that, but the Lawrence Welk people said it doesn't exist. [00:40:00] They don't have the film, and if anybody would have it, it would be them. But definitely she was there and played all that. So all of these things happen. Meanwhile, Vahe passed, and I was invited down to a little ceremony they had before the cremation, down in LA. And what I did is I went to this church where they met and took a flower from their little flower garden in front. And brought it over to him. There he is looking pretty damn spiffy, might I say.

Haley Radke: Open casket? 00:42:00]

Paul Kimball: Yes. Absolutely. And I asked the Armenian priest with this beautiful voice, I said, Can I place this flower on him? Because it represented both of them together. This is where they met. And he said yes, and so I put it there. And it's a very small group of us that are in this tiny little room with this ceremony, and I was so grateful that the Armenian clan let me, invited me to go down, and my wife came down, and all of that.

Meanwhile, in my checking of the Chautauqua website, I see that her name isn't there. But I haven't heard anything, didn't see anything on Taps. At that point, Facebook exists, because this is years later. So I find one cellist's name. I thought, Okay, this guy seems like a nice name. I don't know why I picked him, but I sent him a message even though we weren't Facebook friends, and said, I'm an old friend of Wendy Brennan's. I didn't say that I was her birth son. Don't see her, haven't seen her name on the register or the roster for a while. Is she still playing with you or did she retire? I don't hear anything for at least a couple of years. And on Facebook, there's that set of messages that maybe every once in a while you discover exist and go, What are you doing there? Ooh. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. I'm very familiar with the message requests outbox.

Paul Kimball: I'm sure you are, my friend.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Paul Kimball: Ugh. So anyway, one night I get a message from him and he just tells me, Oh, apologizing, I did not see this. I'm sure you've heard that Wendy passed away a few years ago. And no, I hadn't heard because nobody told me.

Haley Radke: Can I ask you... This is gonna be a really hard question and I'm not sure how to word it, but [00:43:00] finding out that she's passed away, can you compare that with your feelings from when she told you, through your in-laws, which is so weird, through your in-laws, that this is done. Can you compare that? For so many of us, the ghosting starts the grieving. And I just wonder if you can talk about that.

Paul Kimball: Yes, I think I can. Number one, as so many of us are, we're so many different people. So part of me is very social, and part of me is extremely private. So when I saw that, I didn't wake up my wife, didn't tell anybody. I just went into a tailspin, just very similar to the experience of her [00:44:00] putting the gauntlet down on me and saying never contact again, because she stuck to it. It was horrifying. I took an evening walk around our whole area. I live on a nice lake area, and just everything is spinning at once. There's an anger, there's a feeling of hurt. There's a feeling of I didn't pull it off. I didn't pull it off. I thought we could make this work. I thought by some miracle there would be a letter sometime, a phone call. It was all there. I conduct a once-a-year orchestra. I dreamed of having her come be in it. "I need some good cellists. Come on over. It'd be great." All of that. But that didn't happen, and it could have. I wanted her to know [00:45:00] her grandkids. It could have been wonderful. She was an only child herself. As far as I know, there are no relatives, and as I said, my biological sister has, as far as I can tell, some extreme mental issues. So it was horrifying, Haley. It was horrifying, and yet I taught the next day. Just did it. I always make myself do it because, as a music teacher, you can secretly express the feelings that you want while you're working on the vowel sounds with your tenors and the beauty of the soprano sound and the meaning of whatever piece you're working on. That need to express. And I don't remember for sure, but I could almost guarantee that the Elgar Cello Concerto was raging through my whole body that night. That sadness [00:46:00] that we all feel whether we're coming out of the fog or whether we're still in the fog. We might not understand the sadness, but it was that sadness, and it just all burst up again. But what could I do? There's no funeral. I've never been able to get ahold of a death certificate. I don't know if there was one. There still are all these mysteries. But anyway, I found where she was buried, which was in LA. And of course, I decided I've gotta go and visit, and I take the trip by myself. And I don't know why, but maybe that's an adoptee thing. Between all of these worlds, but my world of being an adoptee is my own private world with Wendy. Other people can come [00:47:00] and listen and... But I just needed to do that by myself.

Haley Radke: Can I ask you something? Something just occurred to me when you were saying that. There's a part of us that I think we're always on and acting, for lack of a better word. Like the person that we “should be.” So it's a gift to yourself to be alone, and you can be the real Paul and feel the real feelings and not have to be on for anyone else.

Paul Kimball: Absolutely. You said it so well. Yeah. And therapeutically, when I get really down, I let the fact that happy Paul is also me. That's not a fake entity. That person really exists, and that helps me. And that's what I would love to say as we connect here in adoptee land. That's true of [00:48:00] all of you. If you're a painter, if you have kids and you love them, whatever it is you do, that's also real. And to acknowledge that does not make the pain go away, but it also helps a great deal.

But you're right, I don't want people staring at me, and I don't know how I'm gonna feel. So when I went down there alone, and I remember having weird feelings in the hotel room beforehand. I go looking for her grave and they give me the chart. Here's exactly where she would be, and I cannot find her. I cannot find her. And I'm looking at probably where she should be, but there's no marker. There's no nothing. So finally I get ahold of a worker who comes over, who calls the main office. They figure it all out and go, Yeah, she's right there, nobody did a grave marker for her. And [00:49:00] again, this is a person on TV. This is a person written about in some publications. This is somebody who really meant something, but in the end, there's nobody there for her when that happens. And that's why, by the way, I feel like I have permission to say her name, even though a lot of us don't want to out people, etc.

So I just, again, maybe it's a similar question: How did you feel when that happened, Paul? Very similar to when she, my mother-in-law, reads me what she'd written down from the phone call. Very similar to finding out that she had passed and I didn't know. Anger at being in this situation. Deep sadness. But also, after all the searching, knowing she's down there. I now know where you [00:50:00] are. And luckily, it's a huge place and there was nobody around, and I'm out in nature. So I went down to the office and told them exactly who I was. I am Wendy Brennan's birth son. Can I design the marker, the grave marker? And they said, Sure. And so I did. And beloved mother with a treble clef, put her dates on there. There's a nice rose, and I worked really beautifully with the people there. And they created it, and they send me ideas of how it would look. And probably about three months later, they let me know that it exists. Then it took me months to go down there. So now I finally make it down in about early [00:51:00] February, and I know exactly where to look, and there it is. There is that marker and we connected. I couldn't kill her off in my head when she tells me, "Go away." I couldn't do it. What do you do with all that emotion? What happens with it? It still churns, so you express. I could never hate her. I, in a way, understood so much of what she was going through from that one conversation that she has with me where she uses the slut word. But with this, she matters. And I cleaned off the marker the best that I could and had my own little memorial service. I played some horn for her. I listened to the cello, I guess on my phone. Nobody was around. [00:52:00] I cried. I couldn't leave. And then finally you do leave, and it was this mixture of not quite relief, but I did do this as her son. We were together. She was the very opening of my entire life, and I was able to do this for her. How she would feel about it, I will never know. I...Clearly there weren't relatives to do this. So that's kind of where we are. But life goes on and we work through our pain, but we don't run away from it. And I think when I hear so many of your guests talk about it as an ongoing process instead of a you can tie something up and [00:53:00] we're now in happy land. I think acknowledging it provides an opportunity for more happiness than we would have if we just buried it

Haley Radke: I think that's so true. I really do.

Paul Kimball: Yeah. Well and look at you, this is what you do for a living. And it's wonderful.

Haley Radke: I may confess on occasion here, though, that I'm very good at stuffing things down, Paul. No, but I appreciated what you said just a little bit earlier when you were talking to us as adoptees, and I want to give you an opportunity to do that before we do our recommended resources right away. Just share more of that because I think it is so important for us to hear that we're more than the brokenness and all the baggage we're carrying around of being unwanted and having those thoughts and feelings our whole life of maybe not fitting in and all those things. We're more than that. [00:54:00]

Paul Kimball: You better believe it. As I say, we are all human beings, not just people that weren't adopted. We adoptees are human beings like everybody else. We get to enjoy Pam's waterfalls. We get to enjoy the ocean. We get to enjoy our music that we personally love. Anything that human beings get to be a part of in terms of the larger picture, we're human beings, too. Now of course, original birth certificates is a whole nother story where you just go, We are in this other category. Which we shouldn't be because we're all part of the big deal. One thing that helps me so much is this connection, not [00:55:00] only here in the internet world, but in the regular world. My students know I'm adopted. They sure don't know this whole story, but they know that and they get lots of bits and pieces, and I've had so many heartfelts over the years. Even, was it two weeks ago? This cute little eighth-grader who lives in my neighborhood mentions tomorrow's my birthday, Mr. Kimball. And she's a foster kid and says, I'm not sure exactly how I'm feeling about it, Mr. Kimball. I said, You don't forget that I was a foster kid as well and I know how complex it is. So maybe instead of saying it's your birthday, unless you want it, you could do what I do. Acknowledge the people that want to wish you. Accept their love, but also think of it more as this is the accepting-of-love day [00:56:00] and looking out for people and then knowing I'm gonna have my own sadness.

My last birthday, I literally had that moment where you just drop to the bottom and I'm just in that despair on my birthday and then my brother Seth calls, Happy birthday to you! And I thought, I'm going to accept him. It was almost like a divine intervention comes down and says: Yeah, Seth, could you call Paul at this point? But all of that complexity, the complexity of Mother's Day, all of these things. But in adoptee land, whatever you can do to express, if you paint, if you act. I love acting. I love music directing. I love being a different character and exploring that character's feelings. [00:57:00] Whatever you find yourself doing, let it happen naturally. Is that pretty good?

Haley Radke: Pretty good. Good job. Good job. Very inspiring.

Paul Kimball: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I can tell you've given one or two of those-rousing … I'm sorry. So my father-in-law was a band teacher, and he did become a pastor, but music has always been so important to him, and so I've been at a lot of concerts. So I'm picturing you, conducting and doing your interludes in between the concerts. Okay, Paul. Okay. So Paul said, “We Are All Human Beings" and that's the name of your memoir, and you add, "An Adoptee Ponders." And I'm gonna show you: look at my little book tabs I made. How about that?

Paul Kimball: Oh. Wow!

Haley Radke: You sent me this earlier this year, and I got the [00:58:00] chance to chat with you before I read it, and so much of your heart comes across in your writing. And just as you hear Paul's heart coming across through his voice, I just loved reading your story this way. It was really meaningful to me. And I like how, as you share, how do I say this, the facts of what's happening, you have these sections where you comment on them, the internal voice of what you're feeling about these things, how they impacted you. And I really appreciated that, and I was like, Oh, I'm, like, in your head. So that was really special. And I just keep coming back to the word wholehearted. And you have this big, joyful personality, and you're full of love, and I can tell that you must be a fabulous teacher and mentor to your students and the people that you impact on a day-to-day life, just from [00:59:00] your words and hearing you share. And we have had several conversations now before recording, and it's you. It's you. You're consistent.

Paul Kimball: Oh, good. When I started writing the book – because I'd gone to therapy and the therapist said, You have quite a story which could help other adoptees. Why don't you write a book? I went, Oh, okay, I'll do that. If that's what the end product is or the end outcome is, I'll do that. Before that, I wasn't so connected. I listened to your show. I can't think of too many other connections. But in the structure of the book, I don't know how to write a book. So doing that, I thought of that really early: Tell what happened in any instant that I want to comment on, put it in italics.[01:00:00] And that got me through the book, and I did it in order except when I went to finally see Wendy's grave and I came back home. I immediately wrote that chapter. But it's agonizing to write one of those. I could do maybe a page at a time, often in nature, often outside surrounded by beauty and my little laptop. I would do that. But it's worthwhile. Even if you never share it, but you do it that way and just, again, say what happened and then whatever comes out. And I find in the book I ask a lot of questions.

Haley Radke: I think that was what was so validating for me because sometimes when people are expressing, which is...Okay, listen, it's great if you had great adoptive parents and a great upbringing and you're happy. I'm glad. [01:01:00] That's what you want. If an adoption had to happen, that's, of course, what you want. But even as you're expressing those quote “happier” sort of thoughts, you also go back and you're like, Oh, gosh, I hope I don't hurt their feelings when I search. You're expressing those inner things that are true, I think, for most of us. What we're thinking, right? Even if everything looks perfect and happy and part of us is happy, there's all these things under the surface that maybe we're not brave enough to say out loud yet or feel safe enough to say out loud yet. So I really like that part.

Paul Kimball: That's where I gotta tell you the pandemic has been very handy. Because I wrote the book and you finally have the send with the publisher and then it's that sick feeling of it's now out there. Oh, but I can still hide from everybody 'cause it's the pandemic and we're teaching online. [01:02:00] The book, though, I had it cleared with my siblings, who just said, I didn't realize all this was going on in your head. Because it's not the type of thing you talk about. I don't talk about these things at Thanksgiving or anything like that. It's not casual conversation. I also sent about maybe 11 pages of the Armenian section to Vasken, but also to my birth father's wife Rebecca, because here's where I had a huge what-do-I-do? moment. Did she know that Vahe was going to abort me? So she left a message saying, Hey, when's the book going to come? I'm all excited about it. So I called her up and said, Did he ever tell you what happened? And he did. Thank God, because there [01:03:00] are a lot of things getting opened, including part of the book that we're not talking about right here. Which was my adopted father's passing. And I don't want to leave it a mystery. He did take his own life way later after taking care of my mom with Alzheimer's, which left me extremely lost. But I did check with my siblings and said, Can I leave that in the book? What's your opinion? And they all said, Yes, leave it in. And my brother said, Add to the part that he was looking at pictures of Mom when that happened. So I'm in that world of so many of the rocks are gone, those people that you just count on. And yet I was protective of them. They were not...nobody is the perfect family. If you were to ask me right now, what would you say to people that are adopting now? It's the classic: [01:04:00] Please listen to what your adoptive son or adoptive daughter has to say. Really listen to their feelings. And we did that somewhat with my parents, but I think especially from my dad's point of view, there was also the Why did you do that? You've got a great family right here. And that's so hard to explain. And as you say, when they pass, there is a little bit of freedom from that question of am I going to hurt anybody's feelings?

Haley Radke: And it's the same, as you said, that we don't always talk about these things out loud, or your brother saying to you like, Oh, what? I didn't know this. Because if we say those things, then there's the chance for, like, What? What do you mean? And it's such a core, they are such core feelings. To have them questioned. It's so painful.

Paul Kimball: Yes. That scary feeling that they could give [01:05:00] you away any time.

Haley Radke: Yep.

Paul Kimball: And I say that in mega-middle age right now. But still there's a little bit of that. It's just there.

Haley Radke: I don't know if it ever goes away. I don't know.

Paul Kimball: Exactly.

Haley Radke: Anyway, I really recommend your book. I really enjoyed it so thank you for sharing it with me. And what did you want to recommend to us?

Paul Kimball: Well, I have my paper here, but I'm gonna try not to shuffle the papers so that it makes any sound.

Haley Radke: Can you tell I'm like a dictator telling people what to do with sounds?

Paul Kimball: No, you're just damn good. I was so impressed. I told the lady that I work with, a pianist/collaborator, I said, Haley Radke completely knows what she's doing in terms of production value. Oh, yeah. Are you kidding? I'm a music director. I want those mics absolutely EQ'd beautifully. We need the balance between the orchestra and the singer. Oh, yeah. I know. I'm with you.

Haley Radke: Okay, you know. Good. [01:06:00]

Paul Kimball: Yes. So even with the recommended resources, I feel a little guilty not mentioning all, so many of these great books that I've read. But I would say the National Association of Adoptees and Parents, specifically their Adoption Happy Hour, which used to be a live event in Indiana, and then COVID happened, and Marcie Keithley put that together as an online event, and I think it's a Zoom deal. So afterwards, after somebody gives their talk, you can have a question and answer, et cetera. So I was on that. So this is the second time I've told all of my inner feelings ... to you, and in their case, I talked to the little green dot since we're seeing people's faces.

But another, I don't know if this is a resource, but a movie that I would recommend that's not so much [01:07:00] about adoption, but it's about loss, it's called Ordinary People, came out in, I think, 1980. Robert Redford directed it. Timothy Hutton and Mary Tyler Moore are in it, and it's about a teenager who loses his brother in a boating accident. This movie is one of the biggest tearjerkers, has a lot to do with therapy and what a therapist can do for you. And there's one scene where the therapist is saying to the brother who survived–and the brother is in tears, something horrifying had just happened to him–"What is the one thing you did wrong, that you think you did wrong?" And he's in tears. “You can say it." He goes, “When the boat capsized”–the boat capsizes and they're out at sea. He said, "I hung onto the boat." [01:08:00] And the therapist goes, "Exactly." So he was the strong one, and I go all the way back to thinking of me and Wendy. I did hang onto the boat where she let go. I feel like I held onto the boat, and my birth mother just couldn't hold on. So holding onto the boat is saying yes to life with your pain, but still saying yes to life. And the therapist, when he says, "That's exactly it, and you can live with that, can't you?” Yes, I can. So you're living with it. It's not going away, but you're living with it. Side note, the guy who played the son went to my high school. I was literally on stage with him. He dropped out of high school to go to LA to see if he could make it in TV commercials and everything, and he wins the Academy Award for best supporting actor two years later for this movie.

Haley Radke: How about that? So you don't need to stay in school, kids. Is that the message you wanna give, Paul? [01:09:00]

Paul Kimball: Exactly, and I've told kids that story a lot of times.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's so funny. Oh it was such a good conversation. Thank you for sharing your story and your pain with us. I'm so sorry for your losses. Oh, it's a heavy thing. So I thank you for sharing that with us and for letting us know we're not alone. How can we best connect with you online?

Paul Kimball: You can put my email address on there, and my Facebook group of friends, besides my wacky theater friends, is definitely growing in adoption land. It's really wonderful in that. So just do it. I'll love it.

Haley Radke: Send Paul a message request, and it'll just sit in his box for a couple years. Oh no. No, sorry. That's what happens in my mailbox. Yes, I will link to your Facebook profile, and I will include your email address in the show notes [01:10:00] for people if they want to get in touch with you, and also how to get a copy of your memoir.

Paul Kimball: Wonderful.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much, Paul.

Paul Kimball: Thank you, Haley. It was a pleasure.

Haley Radke: I know I was joking around a little bit with Paul about my inbox, but I do want to say thank you to all of you who send such kind and generous messages to me, thanking me for the show, and I just am not able to reply to everyone. So know that I read almost everything I get within my capacity, and I also try to reply to a few. A lot of questions I get regularly are answered on my frequently asked questions page on Adoptees On. So if you go to adopteeson.com, there's a little tab there you can click for frequently asked questions. And I hope to kinda do a little series on that on Instagram in stories at some point in [01:11:00] the next little while. So don't go looking for it right now, but the Adoptees On Instagram is @adopteeson, and once I do those posts, I'll keep them in my highlights so you can go check there too.

I am so grateful for everyone who signs up to be a supporter of the show, helping make it sustainable. There's extra bonuses, so if you go to adopteeson.com/partner, you can find out how to become a patron and get access to the Adoptees Off Script podcast or our private Facebook Group, and I would love to have you over there. I get to chat with more of you there. And we're still doing our fabulous adoptee-authored Book Club this year, which has been such a delight to read through some really different books that I might not have picked up. And we're doing newer books and older books, and my co-host Carrie Cahill Mulligan, is amazing at digging up gems for us to read. [01:12:00] So if you're a reader, I would encourage you to join us there at adopteeson.com/partner. And thank you, thank you, thank you. I'll say it again: I can't do the show without you. And if that's not in the budget right now, no worries. One huge gift you can give is just tell one person about this episode, one person who you know would love to hear Paul's story, and maybe they love music, and maybe they play cello or French horn or are a choir director or a music teacher or someone who has similarly had losses like Paul has. This episode might be an encouragement to them, so I'd love it if you would share it with just that one person. One person.

Thank you so much. It's such a joy to serve you this way. Thank you for inviting me into your earbuds. Paul told me that I go on hikes with him, [01:13:00] and so, Hi, Paul. I'm so glad I get to hike with you. I'm so glad I get to go on drives with a lot of you who listen during your commute or if you're going somewhere on a road trip. And a lot of you listen when you're walking your dog. So I'm so glad that you bring me along for those moments. That's special for me, even if I'm not really there. I love knowing that. It's a gift.

Thanks for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

182 Gregory Luce

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/182


Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 182 Gregory Luce. I'm your host, Haley Radke. I am so excited to introduce you to Gregory Luce today, the attorney behind adoptee rights law. We get to hear some of Greg's personal story today, including the five-year court battle it took for him to receive his records.

We talk about some of the typical arguments adoptee activists hear from legislators against original birth certificate access and what impact DNA testing access has had on OBC legislation. Greg also challenges us to make sure we're listening to all adoptee voices.

Greg is a lawyer, but he's not giving us legal advice during this episode. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On: Gregory Luce. Welcome, Gregory.

Gregory Luce: Hi, Haley. It’s good to be here.

Haley Radke: Okay, first of all, I'm so thrilled to talk with you, because I've followed you for years on Twitter, have learned so much from you, but I'm really excited to get to hear some of your personal story. So, would you mind sharing some of that with us today?

Gregory Luce: I am a D.C. born and adopted person. I was born in 1965 in the District of Columbia and seven days later, I ended up in Silver Spring, Maryland with my adoptive parents and I have an adoptive brother as well. My story’s probably pretty typical for most domestic adoptees, maybe most white domestic adoptees, but I grew up always knowing I was adopted.

I did wonder quite a bit as I got into my adolescence and then wondered quite a bit more, and sort of had a breakdown when (as I think a lot of adoptees do) when they are about to become parents or have just become parents. And that was my sort of breaking point in trying to figure out who I am, where I came from, and to get information about that.

And that was in–let’s see, it goes way back to 1999/2000, as I didn't really know anything about getting records. In fact, I think back in 2000, I was surprised to learn that I have two birth certificates. I didn't know that there was an original, and once I found out there was an original, I was going, “Whoa, they’re hiding that from me. It's in a court somewhere and I can get it.”

So I researched it a little bit. And I'm an attorney, and I was an attorney at that point, too. So I knew what I was doing for the courts in the District of Columbia. It just said, “Fill out this form, submit $80.00 and you'll be heard by the court.” And so I did that and I got an order back saying, “Yes, we are unsealing your records.”

And so I'm like, “Woo hoo, that was easy.” It didn't mean what it said it meant, though. It meant that they were going to unseal my file and then kick it over to the adoption agency. And then I got a letter shortly after from the adoption agency saying, “Well, if you pay us $500, we'll search for your parents and see if we can get your parents’ consent.”

And I was not interested in that. I wasn't prepared for a reunion. I wasn't prepared to meet my parents. So I said, “No, thanks.” So then, shortly after that, maybe six months? I had forgotten that I'd done one of these (they used to be private) these private registries. I think they still exist.

This private registry was related to the D.C. area. So Maryland, Virginia, D.C., maybe parts of West Virginia. And, lo and behold, there's a match. And in the fall of 2000, I met my birth mother through that. And we met towards the end of 2000, and then I think, if I’m still remembering correctly, she died 169 days later.

So, we did get to know each other. It was a wonderful reunion. She had been battling cancer for quite some time. And it’s my belief she held on for this amount of time to know that I was still alive and doing well. I ended up inheriting all of her records. I was an only child. She later married my birth father and they later got divorced as well, but I had thousands of documents from her.

And so I rebuilt her life and rebuilt her life, so I would understand it. I became essentially her biographer, or her historian. Then, about in 2015…and these things always take so much time. You sit on it, you think through it, you're not quite sure what you want to do. Life gets in the way. But in 2015, I said, “You know, I'm going to give it another chance and this time I'm going to go whole hog and I'm going to throw the book at the court to try to get my records.” And so I wrote a 35-page petition and memorandum and filed it with the court.

It took five years and two denials from the court, as well as the Court of Appeals case in D.C. when they finally said, “Yes, you can have your original birth record and your father's name will be unredacted.” Because their final decision at the trial court was, “Yes, you can have your records. We need to figure out the privacy interests of your deceased mother and even though you know the name of your father, we're not going to give you his name. We're going to redact that.” And I got a redacted original birth record. That was what I appealed and won on that part. It's changed D.C. law a little bit in that respect.

It means that consent of the birth parents is not the linchpin there. It has to take into account the paramount interest of the adopted person, but they do still attempt to contact the birth parents in D.C. to determine if they would release or what their preference is for releasing records.

I'm in a long snail mail relationship with my birth father. We write letters, plunk them in the mail, and open them, and read them, and reply maybe a few months later. So, that is ongoing and very slow, and I think eventually we'll meet at some point. But through all that, I mean, after coming away from 2015…for the two years it took me just to navigate the courts in D.C., I said, “You know, this is nuts. This is crazy. I'm a lawyer and it takes me this much effort to challenge the court and to try to get my records. What's it like in the rest of the states?” And that's when I began my sort of a new turn of my legal career and I became (what I call myself) an adoptee rights lawyer. I think I'm the only one in the country, because there's not many attorneys that do this full time. And I began the Adoptee Rights Law Center as a law firm that represents adult adopted people.

That grew into not only birth records and identity documents, but also representing inter-country adoptees who either are having trouble proving citizenship or need to secure citizenship because they did not get it done when they were young. So, that's where I am today. It's been a crazy four years now? So when you say we haven't spoken for years, I still think I started this last month. It just feels that way to me, but it's been four years of doing this and there's so much that has happened in those four years. So I'm glad it feels new to me still.

Haley Radke: What kind of law did you practice before starting this?

Gregory Luce: All kinds! I clerked for a judge for a couple of years. I did employment law for a few years. I was a technology person at the State Bar Association. I ran a nonprofit that organized low-income and tenants in their buildings to fix their buildings up.

I don't stay in positions very long. I just hop around because I get bored, but this is the one that's kept me (I think the longest of any), is this work here. Because it's so meaningful and so personal and it's actually really, really gratifying. So yeah, I did it all. I did litigation, family law, you name it. The only thing I haven't done–I have not done criminal law. Although, I think I did get thrown into court one time for a client and had no idea what I was doing.

Haley Radke: I remember when you started your Twitter account and just thinking, “Oh, this is really cool. This is fascinating to me.” I'm Canadian, so, but of course, most of my guests are American, and so I follow very closely what's happening down there in terms of legislation and things. So, it's amazing to me. You kind of glossed over this, but you changed D.C. law. That's amazing to have the interest of the adoptee as paramount. I mean, that's a big deal.

Gregory Luce: It is. It's not unrestricted right (which you get through legislation), which is the next step, but that's why I got into this. It was to figure out a way to change the law and figure out a way to make it so you do have an unrestricted right to request and obtain your original birth record if you're a domestic adoptee. But obviously, what happens with the court, is it takes such a long time and you have to have someone like me, that's willing to stick in there for four or five years in litigation. And there's not many people who really want to do that.

Haley Radke: Also, frankly, most of us wouldn't have the resources to pay for your services for that long,

Gregory Luce: Right. Yeah. If I were to have paid myself for what I did, it would be $40-$50,000. That's what my legal fees probably would have been in the end if I had hired an attorney. Some people will say, “Why didn’t you hire an attorney?” Well, that's the reason.

That was the other part of forming the Adoptee Rights Law Center. I'm in a part of my life where I call myself a stay-at-home lawyer, where I've been taking care of the kids while my wife works and doing sort of part-time work. We didn’t need–I'm privileged not to need to work to earn money in that sense. I mean, it's something we still need to worry about, but not in the sense that many other people have to worry about. And so I started out with almost entirely pro bono cases, because I knew that adoptees did not have the resources to pay $1,000, $2,000, $5,000 to file a court case.

And I've continued to do that, because there's so much demand, though. I have been fairly careful now about what cases I take pro bono, and then those cases where a client can afford, I'll have a low flat fee that would cover petitioning a court and getting records…the whole case, as opposed to an hourly fee.

So that would range. It's cheaper than hiring, at least in Minnesota. It's cheaper than paying $1,000, which is what it takes for the major adoption agency here to launch a search. And those searches depend upon consent to get any information back. So, I'm cheaper than the adoption agencies on purpose, and still try to keep my services pro bono. And most of my inter-country adoptive cases are pro bono. Not all, but most. So, that's sort of my way of giving to the community, but also keeping busy in an area that I really love.

Haley Radke: Yeah. I didn't know your story before you shared it and I usually make notes, and I do research before my interviews. I had a note to ask you about what your thoughts on mutual consent registries were. And then it turns out that that's actually how you found your birth mother!

Gregory Luce: Right. They never work. They are notoriously ineffective. And lo and behold…

Haley Radke: Sorry, I should just make a little note there. The reason I wanted to ask you that was because that's given as a reason. “Well, mutual consent registries are available, so that's what you should use to search.” From some legislators, I've heard that argument.

Gregory Luce: Right. No, they're just so terribly ineffective. No one knows about them. You have to sort of get lucky to find out about them. There has to be a match. They often don't work anyways, even if there is a match there, because something's messed up in the search algorithm or the search database. I just read a story in New York, where they currently have an unrestricted right now; they changed the law. We've changed the law. We helped change the law there. These were two siblings. They both registered for the registry there 27 years ago and they just found out from the registry–27 years later. So, the registry did not work in that case, and that's typical, I think, for many of these registries and they're just completely ineffective. Of course, that's what’s so interesting about my story, is that it worked. And it worked six months before my mother died.

So, just quite amazing that that's what happened. It worked six months before she died and six months after I first petitioned the court. And the court had nothing to do with her registering. She just happened to register, I think, in October, 2000. And I had registered, I think, back in 1987, or something. So that was 13 years there.

Haley Radke: I remember filling out those things as a teenager. We had the Internet, I had an old computer. Well, it wasn't old–it was new!

Gregory Luce: An Amiga or something?

Haley Radke: Yeah, I don't know! We'd get an Apple for a while, and then, I don't know when we switched to PC, but I remember just randomly filling out these online database things and nothing ever came of that for me. But that was in the olden days.

Gregory Luce: Obviously, I had forgotten completely that I had registered. Up pops an email from the administrator of this registry and everything's changed from there.

Haley Radke: I find this really interesting, because you have worked on changing statewide legislation, but also, it's just one off, going to unseal one person at a time kind of a deal.

So, can you talk about the differences of those things? It's fairly obvious to me, but for a lot of people, they don't understand closed records, etcetera. You've got this hole nailed down. Can you tell us about that, please?

Gregory Luce: Yeah, and it's a great question, because it's something I think about all the time. There are two approaches you can take when you believe you have a right to obtain your original birth record. One is to change the legislation so that they recognize that right, or in many cases restore it in the state that used to have it. And the other is to find a legal argument that would make the courts recognize that right as a right.

The legislation is actually probably easier to do (as hard as it is). It's probably easier to change a law than to establish a right through the courts. And so you have to have these dual tracks going, though, in which you're trying to pursue this right through legislation, but you're also trying to convince legislators that it is a right. And they recognize it as a right, because part of creating a right is advocating for the belief that it is a right. And that's really important to realize that you don't so much… It’s the pressure that you put on society through legislators that will lead to them saying, “Yeah, you're right. If you put it that way, it really is a right.”

And then how you define that is going to be the big question, both for legislation and for the courts. If you're narrowly looking at it and you're narrowly saying, “We have an absolute right to the original birth record,” that's going to be much harder to prove than, “We have a right to identity.”

And this is where I'm sort of moving and how I'm analyzing these things legally, is that there's a much broader right to identity, to heritage, to citizenship, that relates to birth. That is the right that's really an issue. That's why I'm so excited in some ways to be connecting with the donor conceived community who have the same identity rights that come up. They call them genetic identity rights, or any number of different rights. And it's a very complicated area, but it is. It encompasses this broad right to your own identity. I think that's where we're going to find a lot of support moving into the future.

The right to the birth record is a right that arises out of a right to a full identity. And so I'm seeing organizations arising and there's one in Switzerland now called child-identity.org. I think there's a hyphen between child and identity. It looks at identity from the point of view that birth certificates…everyone in the entire world does not get a birth certificate.

There are many countries that have pretty lax systems to even record a birth. And so that in itself is a right–to have a birth certificate or a birth record. I've had clients who haven't had them. And that creates all sorts of problems in moving through the world, but this organization in Switzerland (and there are many others, probably like it) takes a really broad look at identity.

And within that is a right to a birth certificate and a right to know who's on your birth certificate, to know your parents, and who they are. There's no general right to relationship unless that relationship is through the birth parent before they relinquish or surrender a child. But even then, there are going to be some rights that attach to that relationship.

But any adult doesn't have a right to a relationship with another adult. We're not talking about relationship rights. We're talking about identity rights.

Haley Radke: Right. Okay, I have never heard it put that way and that's really fascinating, because I was just looking it up and I wanted to ask you this, too, because I was watching some of the videos that you've made and I wondered if you could tell us what happened in California in 1935?

Gregory Luce: So, my theory with California…I don't think anyone really knows, but my theory with California is caught up a little bit with the Georgia Tan scandal. Georgia Tan was definitely involved with a lot of Hollywood adoptions and you had celebrity adoptions as well in California.

What was happening there was that you can request the birth record of anyone in California. You still can, actually, but in the 1930s, people who knew this and knew possibly there was an adoption would request the birth record of that child and would try to blackmail the adoptive parents to say, “We're going to tell.” Which is what's so odd to me. “We're going to tell the kid that the kid's adopted.” That was the blackmail. Not that they adopted a child, but we're going to tell the kid who’s adopted. So, it's wrapped up in that whole fiction that if you were born to the parent and blackmail was possible, because it was so secret that you actually adopted a person.

In 1935, California became the first state in the country to seal the birth records to everybody, including the adopted person. But the genesis of that was around potential blackmail that existed at the time. So, my theory is there's Georgia Tan, there's celebrities, there's actual blackmail going on, but it had nothing to do with protecting the birth parent, which is what eventually became the narrative in the U.S.

Haley Radke: I love that you said that, because what I was reading was talking about hiding from the adopted person the fact that they're illegitimate and covering that? So, that's a really interesting twist.

Gregory Luce: Right. Yeah. It would have been very different in Idaho. You don't have a whole lot of celebrity birth adoptions in Idaho or Oklahoma or wherever, but yeah, illegitimacy was a huge factor. Hide the child's illegitimate status by essentially legitimizing them through adoption. That was the other main, major impetus to do that. But in most cases, as you probably know, the records were not sealed to the adult later. That started to really come into play in the 40s and 50s, into the 60s, even into the 70s. In fact, I think Pennsylvania became the last state in ‘84 to seal their records.

Haley Radke: Because, in that video that I mentioned, Greg has this green map and then California goes red and then the states just go “blink, blink, blink…”

And so now what are your feelings on–Ok, first of all, I can't believe you said you think this is easier through legislation. That kind of blew my mind.

Gregory Luce: Let me say this, though. I think I would probably quit or threaten to quit every day doing legislation, because it's so exhausting, but I do think it's the route that's easiest, if you're looking at time. That's the easiest one to change, but it is very frustrating,

Haley Radke: So, easier, but not easy.

Gregory Luce: No, not at all. In fact, the divisive…I think the divisiveness is actually overplayed within the adoptee community, but I would say just the opinions within adoption itself are very exhausting. And a lot of those actually are coming from legislators and how they view adopted people and all the stereotypes they bring to the equation of determining whether this adopted person deserves a birth record. We saw that played out in Maryland this past session. That was pretty painful to watch.

Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit about that and what you mean by how they see adoptees? I know I was in a session with you at a conference where Claire McGettrick was talking about some of these things and about how to approach legislators. And from us coming with this person–we come with all the adoptee…I'm an adoptee. We come with all our baggage, and feelings, and whatever–that there's not really a place for that, necessarily.

So, do you have some comments on that?

Gregory Luce: Oh, you mean coming with the difficulties of being adopted?

Haley Radke: I would say coming with the feelings arguments versus what you said, “It's a right to identity.”

Gregory Luce: Yeah, the feelings... It's a hard balance, because you have to be human when you advocate. You have to convince legislators that, yes, we are human and yes, we have feelings, but you don't want to overplay those. You have to balance that with the right that you're asserting. And so that can be difficult sometimes. Some people come into legislation believing this may solve their issues–that getting the birth record will solve other emotional issues that they may have associated with the adoption. And it doesn't, necessarily. It may contribute to solving issues, but the right to your record and your identity is the first step. That's the basic right: your record.

And so that's where you have to concentrate: on that record. Maybe its potential for use, but not what it can simply do by possessing it. It's very meaningful to possess it. I almost cried when I–I just got my original birth record unredacted in November of 2020 (so less than a year ago), after 20 years of trying to find it, and it was very meaningful to get that.

That's the fruit. That's always the first step to whatever you do with it, once you do have it. So, I think it is a real balance to figure out how you approach legislators and convince them that it is a right. You don't back down on that. If you back down on, “This is a right,” then they know how to split you off from others who don't believe it's a right, or think that you're overplaying what it is. And so you have to be really firm that it is a right. You're not going to back down on that, because you're trying to convince them that it is.

I think that’s very hard for some people, especially adopted people, to be firm in this right, because you're taught for most of your life that you don't deserve it. It's not yours. It said you don't deserve it. You're going to mess things up if you get it. You weren't supposed to know. All these myths that go along with that make it hard for some adopted people to say, “No, no. I don't care what you think of me. Think about what I need as an adopted person and the right that I have to have my own birth record. It’s not your birth record, it's mine.”

I think that's the hard part, to deal with legislators. It may often come to this with all of the myths of what an adoptee is. And often we're perpetual children. That's really at the heart of it, is we're not treated as full adults. We’re treated att the time we’re born as children. And that's the hardest thing to listen to and see underneath it all is that we're not treated as fully human. And that's what we saw in Maryland. I think we saw there the myth that we're going to destroy families. We're going to “out” birth parents. We're going to show up at the door and they would have to hide these birth parents from the shame that they had. But it was shame that was produced by the state. And so it's shame that's perpetuated by the state today. That's what I think they don't recognize, either. That it's perpetual shame and it's perpetuated by the laws that we currently have.

Haley Radke: And what are you hearing from legislators or other people that you're in contact with doing similar work in other OBC rights access organizations with the argument about DNA? What's less shameful? Getting connected to the third cousin who then digs up who your birth mother is, versus having your paperwork?

Gregory Luce: Right. That's a great question, and I take it by making sure we don't put all our eggs into the DNA basket, so to speak? Meaning, part of it and an argument is always, “Well, it's become irrelevant in many ways to not provide this record.” A lot of legislators still don't get that. They're so protective of the myth that existed when a child was relinquished in the 40s, 50s, and 60s–that it doesn't matter to them. So, what I often say, too, is that these methods of trying to find out just the names of your parents are so deeply embedded in who we are as adopted people (not all adopted people, but many), that we've been using different methods for decades to do that.

We've been using private investigators. We've been using searchers where you pay $2,500 in cash in an envelope through an intermediary. We have Search Angels. The methods have just changed. And DNA has become inexpensive and easy to use, and that's just the method we use now, but it does not substitute for a request for the birth record and you're provided with that birth record upon request.

But you're right, it does…And I've used this in court. If you have DNA and you get these matches to third cousins, second cousins, more increasingly first cousins, and you then get–I usually use Search Angels with my clients, because I don't do the investigation to try to find people. That Search Angel will take that list of matches and then start going down that list. What I've done in many of my court cases where we don't know who the birth parent is, we narrow it down. And then I get an affidavit from the Search Angel explaining exactly what she (usually she) is going to do over the next two months to try to locate and identify that birth parent. That means calling 200 people, contacting people on social media, and using existing databases to find them.

And so I put all of that in an affidavit and I say to the court, who, to be honest, is the fact finder…They're the ones that are looking at all these facts and making their decision, like legislators really should be doing in the sense of creating legislation. The judges in almost every case say, “Well, I'm just going to release you to the record–the birth record.” Because that's way better than this route you're outlining here, of contacting 40 people and asking the question, “Do you know if a cousin or an aunt or someone gave up a child or surrendered a child to adoption in 1975?” That question then reverberates across generations. As opposed to requesting the record, and receiving it, and doing what you want with it.

So judges understand that and they respond to it. They're the fact finders, neutral fact finders, hopefully. Legislators have not yet fully understood that, and some don't really want to understand it. I tell people that this issue is bipartisan. It really is. You get staunch Republicans who are fully in favor of the right to your own birth record.

You get Democrats who are very similar. It skews a little bit Democratic, depending upon what abortion politics are in play in that state. But the biggest factor, and Annette O’Connell in New York really brought this home to me, is age or generation. It's a generational difference. The younger the legislator is, in general, the more they're not going to care. They’re not going to see the big deal. I mean, they're going to care, but they're not going to see the big deal of releasing an identity record. Whereas, the older legislators are locked into the myth that developed around adoption in the 40s, 50s, 60s, into the 70s, and are unwilling to let go of that myth. So it's really skewed by age, more than anything else.

Haley Radke: I know you're an attorney and I know you have this view of the courts and the judges and most of us would not understand, but when you are talking about fighting for your own record and literally saying, “I already have my birth parents' names and I already have this information.”

What are you feeling inside? It just sounds so ludicrous. “How can you not give me this paper? Because I already know what’s on it.” Are you not like, “Is this all a farce? Am I being punked? What is happening right now?”

Gregory Luce: Those are good ways to explain it–being punked or the absurdity of it was often really brought home by that whole process. They're hiding things for the sake of hiding things. At some point, they're just, “We were so locked into hiding this birth record, that that's the reason we're hiding it. Because we're hiding it.” And that circular absurdity was really what was brought home to me.

I've written about this on my personal blog, and the one question that I got from a social worker…So in D.C., again, when you unseal the record, they then refer it over to an agency to look at whether there's consent already and then look at whether they should contact the birth parent. My mom was deceased at that point and I had had a relationship with her for the time we knew each other. I had inherited all of her records, so I was part of her extended family. But the question I got from the social worker was, “Do you have proof of the relationship with your mother?”

And it was such an absurd question to me, for a number of reasons. One is, well, the proof is the birth record that I'm trying to ask for! There's the proof right there–her name's right there and I'm there on that record as well. But what I wrote about was all the records that I have. The absurdity of what I was–I was almost using satire, in some ways, in what I sent back to the social worker.

And that satire was–I gave her Christmas cards that we sent to each other. I gave her other cards that we sent to each other. I gave her–I have a recording of her on New Year's Eve saying, “New Year's Eve.” It's on my– back in the days where you had actual machines that recorded voicemail. I have a video of being at her home in Florida for Christmas. So, do I send all of those things in to the social worker just to prove that I had a relationship with her? It was just so absurd. And I think that may be where a lot of people would give up, and I would not blame them, either. A lot of adoptees probably give up as part of this process. Sometimes, it's so hard, especially the court process, but I knew I was right.

I knew that I had a legal point here to make, as well, and I stuck with it. Over the years, I've learned how to deal with the absurdity as well. And I think that's what I like about being a lawyer, is I can deal with that absurdity in a constructive way, but I do feel for my clients who have to deal with it on a very personal level.

I have a client in the last three weeks who has really gone through the wringer of–We've got a birth record, but she wanted a baptismal certificate. She wanted the original baptismal certificate. I don't know if many people know, but in the Catholic church, they issue amended first baptismal certificates that make it appear as if your adoptive parents were at the baptism, which physically, this was impossible. She wanted her original baptismal certificate and then we got a court order for the agency to supply it. The agency said, “Well, you need to pay our fees to do that.” The fees approached around $400, just to open the file and to release an original baptismal certificate. $400! And it was just so absurd.

There's not much you can do on that, because you're dealing with (usually) a private adoption agency. So, they really have a lot of power there. And so she paid. I think we negotiated the fee down, but, again, the absurdity of hiding things for the sake of hiding them is really what comes home to me and to my clients as well.

Haley Radke: Well, when you were describing–I got emotional when you were describing what you were sending over as satire, you said, to the social worker. I was thinking, “Who has the right to privacy here?” Sorry to say this, to use this wording, Greg, but it’s just what has come to my mind–prostitute my precious memories when I only had 164 days with my birth mother. And now I have to show you all these precious things to me. That is…I don't have the words for it.

Gregory Luce: It was, no, it was stunning. It really was. That's why I tended to write about it. That was one way of therapy for me is that won out–I would say is writing. Yeah. It's stunning what you have to give up of your own personal self to get your records. And this was to get my original birth record. It ended up the courts–well, not the courts. They kind of made a mistake in my case. I mean, I asked for three sets of records… And this is what I always tell people–there are usually three main records that you're seeking. One is the birth record. It's generally very hard to get, but generally of those three, it's the easiest to get. The next are court records, which are a little harder to get, depending upon the state. Some states will give them to you as part of the birth record.

And then, third, are the agency records. It could be the public agency, or often, it's a private agency. Those are the hardest of any to get–usually it's in a private agency. The courts don't really want to order a private agency to relinquish records. And in my case, they gave me 77 pages of agency records.

They redacted my father's birth name, but I already knew who that was, so I just would fill it in every time that redaction came along. And they just did a poor job redacting it anyways. Sometimes his name was Aaron, sometimes it wasn't. But I got the hardest records ever to get, but then they're also the most revealing. They are probably–If you were to think about three sets of records, they are the most valuable, because they have the most information of who you were at that age and what went into the machinery of your relinquishment and adoption to a new family. And so, I learned quite a bit from those agency records.

There was a Georgia adoptee that was at an event recently. And she also got a scad of OBC records and they were incredibly helpful. But then what they couldn't answer for her, was she was in foster care for five months, and there are no records related to that. That's often the hole that people have. I had a seven-day hole, where it was probably in between the hospital and the maternity home. It's not that hard to fill in those seven days, but for people who have five months to fill (where foster care records aren't typically provided anywhere)--that's much harder.

But you're right. It's this whole issue of…you could call it prostituting yourself to prove that you're entitled to your own information. It’s just bizarre and absurd, and I don't wish it on anyone and I'm not going to insist on clients to follow through if they don't want to. I don't have that power, but I certainly leave it up to them as to whether they want to, how hard they want to fight for that, and what they have to give up to get it.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. We're going to do our recommended resources, but before we do that, is there anything else that you want to say to adopted people, or share further about your story, or anything that you really want adopted people to know?

Gregory Luce: I guess, I usually don't have New Year's resolutions at all, or they just have never been important to me. I did have one this year, and it's been really important to me. I think it's something that resonates with adoptees and that is: listen. It’s to listen. And not saying you listen to those voices that you hear all the time, especially in adoption. It's often the adoptee is not centered when there's discussion about adoption. But I'm talking about, “What are the voices we're not hearing right now in adoptee rights work?” And a lot of those are transracial adoptees, inter-country adoptees, and in-race adoptees. So these are the voices I think that, one, are the future of adoptee rights work. And it's the voices that I think we need to not only listen to, but follow. And I'm seeing a lot of that, but I think we still have a lot of work to do to get there.

I think we're going to start talking about the resources, and Adoptees United is one of those. We're making a very conscious effort to build our board so it's diverse and inclusive. And we'll have more information about that board, probably pretty soon now.

Haley Radke: I went to your Adoptee Rights Town Hall for Adoptees United, which is one I want to recommend and I wrote down a quote from you.

Gregory Luce: Oh no, oh no. Sometimes I cringe that I'm recording and oh no.

Haley Radke: Oh, come on. You are entirely staying intact here. You said, “Domestic adoptees need to be better allies to inter-country adoptees.” You said that before you made your New Year's resolution. So, there you go, you’re staying intact.

Gregory Luce: All right. Well, good. It is work that we have to do, and I truly believe that. The other voice that I think we need to listen to, too, especially, is our young adoptees, I have no idea, really, what issues they’re having. We are about to add a young, 25-year-old, transracial adoptee to our board. What he listens to and thinks about is very different from what I listen to and think about as an older, white, domestic adoptee–in a very good way.

If you listen, and you truly listen, I think that we're going to make some progress. But we also have to act, and acting means that you act positively, and what you learn and listen from those who will be and should have more power today. That’s how I do it.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you. I really appreciate you sharing your story and so much wisdom about adoptee rights. I love that your name is Adoptee Rights Law Center. It’s very.--That’s it. That is it.

Gregory Luce: No, it sounds like I’ve got a staff of 30! I’m a center, you know.

Haley Radke: Someday!! Come on. You’ve got to live into it now. That's awesome.

I want people to go and make sure they're checking out your writing there, because I learned a lot from you about integrated birth certificates from a post that's there. Recently, you wrote about (this is a good title, too) “The Five, Most Pernicious Myths about Adult Adopted People.”

Gregory Luce:Yeah, it’s true! We've talked about some of those today.

Haley Radke: Yeah, we did. But Adoptees United, especially–can you tell us more about what that organization is meant to do, and what your plans are for Adoptees United?

Gregory Luce: We're going state-by-state, legislatively. And that was, for me, Minnesota court cases and also inter-country adoption and also inter-country adoptee work. But we were really limited and having to reinvent in every state or every issue, the infrastructure, the logistics, the messaging, all of that. So we wanted to form a national non-profit organization that could, one, raise money, and two, educate people on these issues and become a national voice on adoptee rights issues in a very specifically oriented towards adoptees/adoptee rights.

It wouldn't be an umbrella organization (nothing against umbrella organizations), but we're very specific on limiting it to adoptees, but also building coalitions. The coalition was largely responsible for what happened recently in New York. Coalitions work because they bring different organizations together that may not want to work together without having some structure behind it, or some bottom line commitment to what we're all after.

And so Adoptees United helps form those coalitions that help with the logistics of websites. It helps with the logistics of emails and it helps the local advocates, which make all the difference. Those people who are in the state trying to make change, to focus in on their advocacy work that is actually physically going to the legislature, and lobbying for the legislation that we need. So it's a national organization that could raise money, provide education, and also provide logistics behind legislative efforts across the country. And also, hopefully, as we very consciously build our board, become a very diverse and inclusive voice as well.

I see myself–I'm the president of Adoptees United, but I see myself more as an administrator to get it to where it needs to go. I'd like not to be the head of it for two years from now. I think it needs to have leadership that changes to reflect where we're going with adoptee rights. So that's why we have Adoptees United now. It's going really well. And I think part of that is, to be honest, the ability to draw in people on Zoom and on our Zoom events, like the town hall meeting that you went to,

Haley Radke: Can adoptees (and if not), what's the best way–Can adoptees that are interested in changing legislation in their state, but they don't know where to go? Can they connect with Adoptees United? Or where's the best place for people that are itching to do the work go?

Gregory Luce: That's what I would recommend, is contact us at Adoptees United. There's a form there to fill out, or they can certainly just contact me directly at Adoptee Rights Law Center, because I'll just hook them in.

But that's how it happens. It's a combination of the events that we do and what grows out of those. Because they're now actively trying to build coalitions in California. There's a real interest in a Southeastern United States Coalition. It's not just Florida, or Georgia, or Louisiana, specifically, but these regional lines I think are a really good model for the future.

And partially that because we're such fun, and let's say, we’re such fungible creatures, adoptees. We may have been born in one state, but we likely live in another state at this point. And therefore we're not a constituent in the state that holds our birth records or any records. And so you're disenfranchised in that way, but regionally, we'd be more powerful than that.

We're trying to build these regional coalitions. We have one that's the Capitol Coalition for Adoptee Rights. And that was the one that was involved in Maryland and we'll probably see D.C. happening next when Maryland got defeated. It’ll probably going to be a couple of years before we go back to Maryland, but D.C., may be the next one as well.

Yeah, so it's building those regional coalitions and in the bigger states like California, maybe a state, only a state-level coalition, because it's so big.

Haley Radke: It is big. I've had a lot of California listeners, so hopefully we'll find some people for you here.

Gregory Luce: Oh my God, it is. It is by far the most requests I get from adoptees is how to get your birth records from California. And it's such a restricted state.

Haley Radke: Wow, I'm so excited. Glad we have it. I think it's great. I think it's really great. So I hope that you guys are able to follow Adoptees United, watch out for their events that are coming up, and if you're itching to do some work. If you’re ready, they're ready for you.

What do you want to recommend for us today, Greg?

Gregory Luce: Boy, there's so many books that I have. American Baby is one, the book by Gabrielle Glaser.

Haley Radke: Look at all my book tabs.

Gregory Luce: Yep. I happen to have one of the few paperbacks because I have the galley version.

Haley Radke: Oh, you so fancy! You got referenced in this book.

Gregory Luce: I know, I saw that! That was so generous of her to do that, but I've been in touch with Gabrielle for awhile now. She's been doing such a terrific job of getting the issue of secrecy and adoption out there and discussed. And I think it may have even led to that Steve Inskeep piece that we saw more recently, but that's a book that I'd recommend. Cleave is a book of poetry. I have it around here…Tiana Nobile?

Haley Radke: Oh, I just went to her poetry–the lunch. It was wonderful.

Gregory Luce: Oh, cool! So another one is done by Megan Galbraith and it's The Guild of the Infant Saviour. I'm looking forward to that one. I think that's out in mid-May/end of May.

Haley Radke: Yes. It's coming out soon and she's going to be on the show. So, we're very excited. You can look forward to that.

Gregory Luce: Good! I have a whole pile. And then I still came across all sorts of books from the past that were written several years ago, Invisible Asians is one by a professor in Minnesota. One that's out right now is Surviving the White Gaze by Rebecca Carroll. That's a memoir. She's a Black adoptee, grew up in a white family in New England and is a cultural critic for…well, has been a cultural critic for many prominent publications in the past.

So, I always recommend books. You know, I often don’t have time to read them. So, I just listed a bunch of books that I have, and I haven't even read yet, but they look so good.

Haley Radke: They look so good! I have read them. They are good! I haven't read all of the ones you mentioned, but I’ve read most of them. Oh my gosh. Oh, that's hilarious. If you would like more dry humor from Greg and wisdom about adoptee rights issues, where can we connect with you online?

Gregory Luce: The best way is probably Adoptee Rights Law Center and that's at adopteerightslaw.com, or I'm more active on Twitter than any other social media and that's @adopteelaw on Twitter.

Haley Radke: Wonderful! Thank you so much for sharing with us today.

I hope Greg will come back, because I had so many more questions for him and I just want to know more about the people who are doing such great work on our behalf and what passions propel them. And I just want to get all their wisdom so that I can help you advocate and me advocate for other adult adoptees.

So, what a gem. Love Greg. He is such a gift to the community and has done such great things. He's too modest. He's very modest and he probably wouldn't have told us half of those things without a little pressing. So I'm so thrilled that Adoptees United exists and is going to hopefully connect more advocates nationwide.

So, I do encourage you–If that's something that's been on your heart, get after it. We need more people speaking up for OBC. And I know there's lots of people already doing it, so join in with them and see how many more states you can get opened up down there. Anyway, I am so grateful for Greg's voice and so many of the other guests we've had recently really sharing such powerful things with us.

And I'm also very thankful to my Patreon supporters. You know I couldn't do the show without you, so thank you so much. You know who you are. You know, some people list off names of Patreon supporters, but I've never done that, because I know some of you are very private and you don't necessarily want people to know, but I see you.

I know you, and I'm really grateful. I wouldn't be able to do this without you. So, if you want to join my friends that are supporting the show every month, you can go to adopteeson.com/partner to find out details of how you can support the show and keep it going.

And also how you can access my other weekly podcast. I do two podcasts a week–I feel like that’s too much. Anyway, it's Adoptees Off Script and we have a monthly book club over there, we have lots of silly news reports (it's not silly, but sometimes I get a little bit silly over there), news reporting on adoptee things that are happening. We break down news articles that are– you'll find out the real Haley and how much I want to hear adoptee voices over anybody else’s.

I'll just leave it at that. Sometimes to my detriment. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

181 [Healing Series] Is Loyalty a Trauma Response?

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/181


Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Before we get started, I want to let you know how much it means to me that you're showing up here to listen to adoptee voices. I remember when I was first in reunion with my dad, and we hit the inevitable rocky patch after the honeymoon period faded, I felt so alone. I believed that I was absolutely unlovable because my first mother had ghosted me after a few months into our reunion just a decade prior. For me, creating this podcast has been a tremendous labor of love so that other adoptees like me who were feeling alone, struggling in reunion, or coming out of the fog would have connection, so we wouldn't feel like we were crazy. The wildest part of all of this is that it succeeded. Adoptees On [00:01:00] has become our show to connect and share what the adoptee experience is really like and I'm asking you today to support the podcast and make it sustainable for me to continue doing this work. I'm Haley, the host and creator of the show–our community's show–and I'm also a wife and mom of two little boys, who are trying their very best to stay quiet as I record this.

Haley Radke’s little boys: Hi, Mommy.

Haley Radke: They're trying their almost best to stay quiet. When you sign up for Patreon or donate via PayPal, you are helping me, Haley, contribute to my family's needs. What I didn't expect when I started podcasting was that this would become my full-time job. I'm showing up for you and saying yes to adoptees, and I would love for you to show up for me and commit to a year of support for Adoptees On. I have big plans, and I want to do [00:02:00] huge things for adult adoptees, but I can't do it without the support of you, my listeners. For the month of April only, I have a sale on for a yearly membership to Adoptees On Patreon with one month free. After that, it'll be back to regular price. I'm honored by the support I have already gotten from the community and, truthfully, pretty scared to make this ask again, but if I'm going to continue making the show, I really need your help to make it sustainable and to have the ability to meaningfully contribute to my little family over here and to hire other adoptees to help build the show. Click the link in the show notes or go to adopteeson.com/partner to sign up right now. Okay, let's get to the show.

This is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today we are talking about estrangement through the Internal Family Systems model, Part 2. [00:03:00]

So if you haven't listened to last week's episode, Episode 180, I would encourage you to go back and download that before listening to this. We're diving in a little further into the idea that loyalty is a trauma response. I want to give you a content warning: We do mention and discuss suicide in this episode. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Marta Sierra. Welcome, Marta.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Hi, Haley.

Haley Radke: Okay, we had a really challenging conversation about estrangement last week, and we're going to keep on going. One of the things you mentioned that I wrote down as soon as you said it because I thought, Oh my goodness, this is so profound: “We are loyal to others before ourselves.” I've also heard you say that loyalty can actually be a trauma response. So I really need help unpacking that. [00:04:00]

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah. That's my perception of loyalty at this point because the level at which we can be loyal to abusive caregivers–and that's outside of adoption as well. I've worked with estrangement with many clients over the years, and not all of them were adoptees. So this can be applied to any relationship with an abusive caregiver. But really, we're talking about the fawn response, which is a newer thing that we're talking about when we're talking about fight, flight, or freeze, or fawn is the fourth response. And so I just pulled up a little Psychology Today article to give a little simple encapsulation of what that is. So the fawn response involves immediately moving to try to please a person to avoid any conflict. This is often a response developed in childhood trauma where a parent or a significant authority figure is the abuser. [00:05:00] Children go into fawn-like response to attempt to avoid the abuse, which may be verbal, physical, or sexual, by being a pleaser. In other words, they preemptively attempt to appease the abuser by agreeing, answering what they know the parent wants to hear or by ignoring their personal feelings and desires, and do anything and everything to prevent the abuse. So some key signs that the fawn response is in use are: When you look to others for how you feel in a relationship or situation. It is difficult to identify your feelings even when you are alone. You often feel like you have no identity. You are constantly trying to please the people in your life. At the first sign of conflict, your first instinct is to appease the angry person. You ignore your own beliefs, thoughts, and truths and accept those of the people around you. You may [00:06:00] experience unusual emotional responses when issues do not involve people of importance in your life. This could include emotional outbursts at strangers or sudden sadness throughout the day. You feel self-anger and guilt some or most of the time. Saying no to those around you is a challenge. You are overwhelmed at times but take on more if asked. You lack boundaries and are often taken advantage of in relationships, and you are uncomfortable or threatened when asked to give an opinion

Haley Radke: What do I say? Hashtag relatable?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Hashtag Are you adopted?

Haley Radke: Okay. So fawning, I haven't heard that term before. That is really wild. I can't believe you just read that list.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah.

Haley Radke: No kidding. Hashtag adopted. Whoa.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: So this is really complicated because [00:07:00] society views… Well, we know, right? We know the narrative about adoption in society, which is that we are blessed and we should be grateful, right? And so part of that narrative is that our obedience and loyalty to our adopters is viewed as noble, and it's comforting really. It's comforting to the other people because it confirms that narrative that we are fine and that no trauma occurred. Look, they're fine, right? They're doing all of these things. They're taking care of their family. Who would do that if it wasn't a good situation? Well, someone having a trauma response would do a lot of things that externally look like those have to come from a loving place versus… Yeah, it's fear-based, really. And sometimes things can be really “good” and really “moral” [00:08:00] and yet can still cause us a tremendous amount of internal damage. And unfortunately, adoptees get really good at hiding that damage, even from ourselves. So that's conscious or unconscious. That can look like someone that's overextending for an abusive adopter that's aware and knows that it's hurting them but can't really get out of the pattern, and that also might be someone that swears up and down that they're totally happy to have that person move into their home and take care of them 24 hours a day. And maybe three years in, that person has a heart attack or something. It will show up. There is damage being done when we are centering other people in front of us.

Haley Radke: I just had Dr. Chaitra Wirta-Leiker on the podcast, and she was talking about internalized oppression and coming out of the fog [00:09:00] and how she doesn't really like that term. But we were comparing the two, and I think that's also linked to what you're saying right now, how, for lack of a better term, for people who are in the fog it can be unsafe for them, like for their very selves, to admit there's something going on or to even observe that there's something going on that is in conflict with this dominant narrative.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. And trauma responses often unfortunately create additional trauma or additional re-wounding, right? Which looks like this piece that I know on the Estrangement Series people have been talking about, right? Which is going back for more, going back for more, just this pattern that repeats. And the more triggering it is, the more we want it to be different. And so our system is just trying harder and harder, and [00:10:00] we feel like there must be a way, right? If we're in the story of "I'm broken, that's why this feels bad," then we can't see that we're just repeating this pattern and the wound is getting more and more infected. I can't speak enough to the level of suffering that can result when we're in this internal conflict about estrangement. Again, that is whether you are in the very beginning of putting up your very first boundaries up through to you have made this decision and you have tried to cut ties. The distress is very similar. It's really hard to have this big push/pull inside of us. But my opinion from my experience personally and professionally is that being in our adoptive families can be its own traumatic experience, and that's in addition to the separation [00:11:00] trauma. Separation trauma is the result of being separated from our first mothers. That is traumatic. We know this. When a baby is taken from its mother, there's a trauma that happens. I'm saying that this is on top of that because it's not, thankfully, it's not all situations, right? But this is a reality. This is a reality of many adoptees' experience, that the experience of being a member of their adoptive family was traumatic. And then you add racial trauma on top of that for transracial adoptees. And I do believe that being raised in racial isolation is abuse. That's another belief that some may find radical. That's my truth. I know it to be others' truth. The impact of being raised in whiteness as a person of color, the impact on identity, the impact on self-worth, the literal [00:12:00] impact on our safety, physical, emotional, psychological and very real safety is so deep. It's so heavy. It's so… I just... I can't... There aren't enough words for me to talk about the gravity of this. Intention becomes irrelevant when we're talking about these layers of trauma. I know some people say, Oh, people didn't know. There are so many parts of us that want to remedy this somehow and make excuses for the perpetrating parties. And my example of that is that you can still go to jail for involuntary manslaughter because a life was lost and somebody needs to be held accountable. And so irrelevant of intention, if you feel personally traumatized by something [00:13:00] and you need to hold people accountable for that and make decisions to protect yourself, then that is your right as a person. That's your right as a human being to do that. And nobody else outside of you needs to agree that that is what occurred. And I would be remiss to not mention the also layers of sexualization and victimization of BIPOC bodies, especially in light of recent violent events. I think protectors that can get activated when we're talking about this level of trauma, this level of labeling abuse in adoptive family systems can want to qualify. Was it really that bad? Did you really need to do that? Really? What happened to you? Did they put their hands on you? Like, all of this comparison about the severity of trauma. It's not necessarily even just about the two [00:14:00] adopters that raised you. It's about these family systems. And again, for transracial adoptees this means being put in a very unsafe situation. And people in BIPOC bodies have a higher likelihood of being victimized, not just within the family system, but within these communities where we're vulnerable and predators know that we're vulnerable. They know that, and there can be a preying on this innate loyalty to others over self. There's an innate sense that we will follow the rules, that we will be obedient, that we will put ourselves second, and in that we can put ourselves in some really dangerous situations

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. I know that especially in the last couple years where the racial tensions in the US… I'm in Canada, but I have eyes really raised high and that's been happening up here as [00:15:00] well. And I feel like there's been a responsibility put on people of color to educate everyone around them. And so then, looking at an adoptee who's a transracial adoptee adopted into a white family and they have this innate sense of "I have to be loyal." But then, you're also a person of color and maybe it's my job also to educate my family and try and un-racist them or whatever, I don't know. I don't even know how you could possibly navigate that. That feels impossible.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yeah, I see adoptees put so much emotional labor into this and I think the cost can be really high. And, I can't emphasize enough, Haley, our protectors are going to do their best to protect us all the time. You may find yourself putting a lot of energy into this, [00:16:00] and I don't want there to be judgment about that. There's no moral meaning to being blended with a protective part of you or what your system is doing to help you survive every day, day to day. This is a both/and situation, and we can only do so much healing when the trauma is still happening. So if for you, personally, the relationship feels like the trauma, then we have to move out of it in order to really get the space to do the healing that we need to. An example would be working with someone experiencing domestic violence. You can't do deep trauma therapy work with someone that's still in a literal unsafe situation. So if we put that lens on it, if your personal experience of your adoptive family system has been traumatic, then there's only one path to your healing. [00:17:00] Again, whether that's boundaries or cutting ties, but it is to put yourself first, probably for the first time, really, in this radical way to really put yourself first. And that we are not owned by anyone but ourselves. We're not property. The door unlocks from the inside. That's what I wish to disseminate to all the adoptees. You are not locked in. If you are unsafe, you can go. It's okay to choose you.

Haley Radke: I think I wrote this question to you when we were preparing, and it was something to the effect of choosing safety of our identity over keeping relationships. And I think you really eloquently said that. I'm sure people will be rewinding–that sounds old-fashioned–to write down what [00:18:00] you just said to remind themselves that they have the power to do that. And we talked about this last time, that there's this great fear as well, and that, if you're thinking of leaving your adoptive family and becoming estranged, professional support is highly recommended because it is so challenging. And then, you're adding on this piece–this is not my experience because I'm white and I was adopted into a white family–but for transracial adoptees and their racial identity, that is a whole 'nother part of your person. And I've heard people use this language, and I think I agree with it. It's violent to not be able to live out your full identity as a person of color. Is that the right lingo to use?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes, I would agree with that, Haley, and that brings me to [00:19:00] another piece of my story that feels so essential to share, which, again, is how do our parts communicate with us? So there's two big pieces to why I knew, for me, it was the right decision to sever ties. One piece was the vomiting that I mentioned in the last episode and the way that my body was communicating with me. The other was my suicidal part, and I know I talked about suicidal parts way back in my IFS episode, but just to remind people, suicidal parts are not parts that hate us or that want us dead. They are parts that cannot see any other way around the level of pain in our system. I like to use the image of a glass with a waterline, like a red line maybe towards the top, and once the water surges too high, it triggers an alarm bell. I think of suicidality [00:20:00] as an alarm bell. It's not, again, that our parts want us dead. It's that they're ringing the alarm bell. They're saying, The pain is too high. We're underwater. We can't keep going like this. And so after I came back from Colombia, from living down there, I entered this really hard phase, and I found myself more consciously suicidal than I had ever been in my life. And I say consciously because what I learned as I got to know this suicidal part of me is that she has been with me the whole time. I have a lot of other really strong, beautiful, amazing protectors that have hidden her from me for most of my life. They were so scared of her. She has so much power inside of me that she was kind of [00:21:00] hidden from my view, and so I wouldn't have necessarily identified that way earlier in my life. But coming back to the US, being separated from my mom yet again, reintegrating into this majority white culture after living surrounded by my blood, by my culture, and then having to still try to keep up this relationship that was demanding that I abandon myself in order to exist, I just couldn't see a way to keep going. And it really came down to me or them. It came down to am I going to choose myself? Am I going to choose to live? Am I going to die for them or am I going to live for me? Because being a clinician, being skilled at [00:22:00] this work, having skills, having a beautiful life in my present moment, lots of support, the most amazing partner I could ever wish for in my life, all of these things, none of that was going to protect me from this pain, from this trauma. It was that big. And it got to a point where it shook me that I'm not safe from this. The very statistic of how many adoptees we lose, that part of me and my life mission is to watch that number go down over my lifetime, that I'm not immune. I'm not too good to become one of those numbers. This could happen to me, and I had to choose life, which meant choosing me. And for a transracial adoptee, white supremacy culture centers whiteness, which also means it centers white lives. So I have to believe, as a BIPOC [00:23:00] person, that my life does have enough value, that I can choose me over the other people, that that's a right as a person.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for being willing to share that with us. I think it will be so validating for so many people to hear you say those words, and I don't want to say admit but share the thing that so many of us have kept down in secret. That's very powerful for you to share that with us.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Thanks, Haley. Yeah. I really just don't want any adoptees to feel alone with all of this. If I can name something that someone's feeling, that's everything.

Haley Radke: Is there anything else that you want to share with us as we talk about this piece of loyalty and identity and choosing yourself, all of those [00:24:00] themes that we've covered

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: An extension of that can be there's so much liberation in choosing us and in this freedom, again, to be fully ourselves, to be fully our authentic selves. I feel like I was living someone else's life. I don't feel like I was... There's all these pieces of it, right? Like reunion brought me back to life a little bit. My partnership brought me back to life a little bit. But this piece, severing the ties of these two relationships, it really allowed me to feel like I'm finally here. I feel like I'm fully alive, right? And a lot of adoptees talk about being half here or feeling like a ghost, or am I an alien? Or am I really here? And I think all of that is if we don't have internal permission to be here, to be alive, to give and receive love, that our experience [00:25:00] of life is going to be pretty painful, and it doesn't have to be.

Haley Radke: And when you said to give and receive love, I just thought as ourselves.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes.

Haley Radke: As ourselves. Yeah.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Yes. I know that you've talked about how a lot of adoptive parents can fear that reunion will be the cause of estrangement, of severing ties, and so I did want to speak to that a little bit, even if just from my own experience that I don't believe that it can ever just be one thing, right? That's just such an oversimplification of what's happened, which is really lifelong for us, right? That these decisions aren't made lightly, and also that, yeah, it's not the fault of that. There were so many things I had to accept and I had to release control over to do this, including releasing the narrative entirely that other people are going to perceive this decision, how they're going to perceive this decision. And I don't have control over that and the [00:26:00] narrative or how it looks, right? Which might be, Oh, she found her biological mother and that relationship is strong, and so now she's ending this other thing. That's not my truth. So if people are going to assume that, I can't control that. And what I want to say here is that, yeah, there's a correlation, not causation, meaning that did having a strong relationship with my mother give me strength to love myself, to put myself first? Yes, absolutely. But it's not the cause of it. It's not the why. And if anything, there was a bunch of fear there too, because my experience of a parent is fear-based and shame-based and terrifying. So I actually was really scared to tell her that I had done it because I was afraid of her reaction because I fear caregivers. [00:27:00] So that was its own piece and, actually, Pam was like, You need your mom through this process, so encouraged me to tell her, and of course, I had this really healing, beautiful, corrective experience of what a mom is, what a real mom is.

Haley Radke: I'm so glad you got to have that.

**Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC:**Thanks.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for sharing, Marta.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: I have a part, I have a mama bear part that wants to make sure that the adoptees, because that's who I'm speaking to, don't hear: The only way to do this is to sever ties.. This is about individual safety and, again, what's safe for one person is not safe for the next person. So not everybody can do that for a million reasons. And so that's not the mandate, and that's not the only way to [00:28:00] reclaim parts of yourself and have a more healthy, balanced, fulfilled life. You have to do what's best for your system, and that's individual. But if you feel like you can't hear your parts, if you're listening to me thinking, I have no idea what my parts are saying. In that fawn response, one of the things was: I have trouble identifying feelings even when I'm alone. That's how pervasive the loyalty is. So if you feel like, I have no idea if I'm safe in this relationship or not, or what I think about anything you just said, that's when we need support. And so your role as leader of your system at that point is to advocate for yourself, which means getting help so you can hear your parts. And advocating like that is also a radical act of self-love.

Haley Radke: Beautiful. I love it. I know people are going to want to talk with you more and learn more about IFS. [00:29:00] How can they connect with you online?

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: My new email address is martasierralmhc (at) gmail (dot) com.

Haley Radke: Perfect. We'll have links to that and all your other episodes in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing so much of yourself with us and your wisdom. I really appreciate it, Marta.

Marta Isabella Sierra Cifuentes, LMHC: Thanks, Haley. My pleasure.

Haley Radke: We are wrapping up the Patreon membership sale. I know today is the last day. I will leave it up just a few extra days till May 6th in case you aren't catching this the day it released. But I'm so thankful for all of you who've joined this month. It's a huge gift to me and my family and to the plans, future plans, for the show and hiring [00:30:00] adoptees and lots of exciting things in the works. Hopefully, you will see that in the months to come. I am so thankful for every single person that listens to this show and values the adoptee voice. Thank you. And if signing up for Patreon is just super not on your radar, no worries. If you would share this episode with just one person, one adopted person that you know who would really benefit from hearing Marta's perspective, I know that would be a huge gift to them. So thank you so much for those of you that already do that, that you already post about the show and you tag me, and I can't always respond to all of them but I promise I read so many of your kind emails and where you share the show on Instagram and Facebook. I just really, really appreciate it. So thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be able to do this work for you. So the link for Patreon, again: adopteeson.com/partner.

Thank you so much for [00:31:00] listening. Let's talk again next Friday