148 Julayne Lee
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/148
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Episode 148, Julayne. I'm your host, Haley Radke.
Today we welcome Julayne Lee, author of Not My White Savior. Julayne shares what drew her to visit Korea for the first time in her thirties and, later, how she spent three years there working, traveling, and writing.
We also discuss adoptee activism and the role anger can play in our work. We wrap up with some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Julayne Lee. Welcome, Julayne.
Julayne Lee: Hi. Thank you for [00:01:00] having me, Haley.
Haley Radke: I feel like it's overdue. Can I say that?
Julayne Lee: Hey, we're here. We're in the middle of a pandemic, and hey, we're here. We are.
Haley Radke: Do I feel like I'm getting more yeses? Because people have nothing to do?
Julayne Lee: Maybe, we're at home, staying at home, so
Haley Radke: It's true. It's just that I have my kids around all the time, so it's hard for me to record sometimes.
Julayne Lee: That's true. That's true.
Haley Radke: Anyway, we're here. I'm so excited to have you on. Honored. Truly. You have had a deep impact in the adoptee community. I so appreciate your voice and I would love it if you would start out the way we always do. And would you share some of your story with us?
Julayne Lee: Sure. So I was adopted from South Korea when I was supposedly 10 months old. Sometimes we don't always know all the facts about our origins. And I was adopted to an all-white family in Minnesota. And at that time the agency that I was [00:02:00] adopted through required adopted parents to sign a statement that said that they promised to raise their adopted children in the Christian faith.
So that was the background that I grew up in. It's very different from how I think and believe and live my life now. So it was ultra-conservative; I went to Christian schools through college. So it was smalltown, rural Minnesota and I was the only person of color in my immediate family. And yeah, I didn't have access to like culture camps and things like that than a lot of other adoptees I've met that say, oh yeah, I went to culture camp. I know them from going to Camp Kimchi or Camp Tiger all these years.
And so I was like, where were these things? That I needed them. And also just, I think, looking at the younger generations now, maybe those who are like university [00:03:00] students now, and how they have like Asian American studies and ethnic studies and how we talk about race, too, and just having language like “people of color” and just how all the different conversations are evolving.
And not to say that makes it easier, but I feel like those are things that even though I'm not formally in school, I'm still trying to tap into teaching myself because I feel like it's very foundational to my identity. Whether I see myself this way or not, the rest of the world sees me as Asian, as Korean in the US. It's like I'm an Asian American.
Whether somebody can tell that I was adopted by white people or not. They can't, but that's the fact. I looked at what was available when I was growing up and what's available now, and I think it's vastly different. And not to say that the work is done, because I think the younger generations, what I'm learning is that they’re still finding that there's a lack of resources and support and [00:04:00] information that they need and that they have a right to.
So that's part of my growing up. And then I went back to Korea for the first time with a group of other overseas adopted Koreans. The whole program was, it was Korean-government sponsored, well I should say partially sponsored. And so that was like my first time to go to anywhere, be anywhere where I was in the majority, where I didn't feel like I stood out.
Haley Radke: How old were you then?
Julayne Lee: I was early thirties, I think. Yeah. And so some of my friends had gone back when they were in junior high, like a family trip or something, and it just always seemed so impossible. It was so far away. It was like far east, these foreign lands and everything. Remember, too, the internet was not really available. Like we were doing dial-up. You remember dial-up?
Haley Radke: I do. I remember that noise.
Julayne Lee: Exactly. But the thing is, [00:05:00] I think the internet has made the world so much smaller. Oh, it's accessible. It's oh, you went there, I went there. It's possible. Whereas at that time, there was no access to one book from 20 years ago that had really bad black and white pictures. And just like the cost and like who would I go with and what would I do when I got there. It just seems so impossible.
So to have that opportunity, which came through a very interesting chain of somebody I worked with, her sister had a friend who had a friend who was a Korean adoptee who had gone back the year before. And so I met up with her and it's the most interesting thing because like, again, we were just like trying to contact each other via email, I think.
And so I was meeting up with this other Korean adoptee woman and it was like a Saturday morning at Barnes & Noble for coffee, and I think I was meeting up with her more 'cause I was interested in the trip. I really didn't know if I wanted to talk to her, but it's like I [00:06:00] had to connect with her to get the information about this opportunity to travel.
And at that point I had traveled to Europe and so international travel was not unfamiliar, but to go back to my country of origin, I think that's like a whole ‘nother thing. It's not a vacation. That's the thing when people would say things to me like, oh, are you getting excited for your fun vacation? It's gonna be such a great trip. And it is not. It's not that at all.
Haley Radke: Do you remember some of the feelings you had when you were preparing to go?
Julayne Lee: Oh, yeah. And in Minnesota I should say at that time like in the suburbs if another Asian American person shows up, it's probably the person we're waiting for. Because I had no idea what she looked like because there was no social media then, but because there's so few of us, it's like a pretty good chance that was her.
Plus it's like a blind date. You're both looking around, and I told her, we're good friends now. But I actually told her, I said I was actually partly hoping you wouldn't show up. [00:07:00] But you know what? It ended up being the best thing.
But yes, in preparation to go, I was doing a birth family search and just trying to see if I can learn a little bit of Korean before I go. Because I had no exposure to the Korean language when I was growing up. I think I met her in January and by that summer I was on a plane to go to Korea and I had just immersed myself in the overseas adopted Korean community in Minnesota, which at that time was very active and I think still is.
And that was also the year that Deann Borshay’s film, First Person Plural, came out. So there are a lot of public events around that. And just being able to meet other adult adoptees who had gone back to Korea and they seemed normal. So okay, even though I was going through this jumble of emotions. Just feeling ripped apart before, during, and after.
At least there was this community that I could look at them and go, okay, they seem good. They seem like they're [00:08:00] not freaking out, so that kind of was a reassurance to me. Because it is, definitely. I think every time somebody would say something like, oh, are you excited for your fun vacation, it just deflated the importance and maybe even just the intimacy of a first trip back or any trip back for an overseas adoptee.
Because, yes, you have to take vacation time off of work to go, and even like last summer I went back and I hadn't been back in five years and, it's okay, I've done this before. Why am I still going through all of these emotions? Maybe not to the same degree as I did the first time I went back, but still, it was just like, oh my gosh.
And one of the best things somebody said to me when I got back from Korea and she's not adopted, but she understands, and she's a fellow poet as well, but she just acknowledged, she's yeah, how was Korea? She just was like, she knew [00:09:00] it wasn't a vacation. And as we're talking, I was like, you know what, it's still [censored] up.
And we just laughed and proceeded to eat our pasta and dessert and it was like, yeah, she gets it. So it's reassuring, at this point in my life now, to have friends who not only are adopted, like we don't have to explain things, but to also have friends who have been on this journey with me and been supportive and who get it as well, but on a different, in a different way.
And then just to add I went back to Korea in 2004 to actually live and work and went on a one-way ticket. I had no idea how long I would stay there. And that was another thing that people kept pressing me about, how long are you gonna be there? What are you gonna do? Even adoptees were like, when are you coming back?
And I literally did not want to say, oh, I'm going to go for a year or two years. And I know some people are able to make those kinds of [00:10:00] plans. But I was done with grad school. I was not tied to a job or anything, so I was just like, I'm just gonna go, obviously I'm gonna get a job.
I ended up getting a job teaching English as many people do, and then I was like, I don't wanna put a timeframe on it 'cause I had two goals. One was to experience life in Korea beyond that summer experience I’d had a few years before. I wanted to know basic things like because it was in the summer, it's so hot and humid, it's like nonstop humidity.
And I was like, I just wanna know things like what is it like to need a sweater? I want to know what is Christmas like in Korea. I wanted to know. These seemed like very basic things, but those are things I wanna know. So that was one of my goals, which, really, it's like after a year it's okay, now you know all the seasons, you know how it goes.
But then I also just wanted to travel around Asia and that region of the world as well as Australia and New Zealand. And [00:11:00] I was able to do quite a bit of travel and I think it was always interesting to be in another Asian country where sometimes I could blend in quite well. Sometimes people knew I was a tourist, sometimes they didn't.
And just how that felt. I remember Japan. I was like, wow, I could live here because I felt like I blended in. Like people come up to me and speak to me in Japanese and it's, okay, I think you just asked me for directions, but I can't help you. But it was just nice to blend in but not feel all this emotional baggage that I did in Korea. Like, why don't you speak Korean? Why don't you understand the customs and cultures and all the traditions and things like that.
And I don't smoke, but I know that in Korea, at least at that time, it's changed a little bit now, but at that time, if you are a woman smoking just out on the street on the sidewalk, like anyone, like older men would come up to you and ask [00:12:00] you like, why you're doing that. You should be standing over there out of sight and things like that. And I just thought, who cares? I get that it's the culture, but I don't agree with it. And I don't care.
So anyway, going back to traveling in Asia, just again, being able to fit in, feel like I fit in, but yet not feeling those expectations and that weight of being in the majority but being an outsider still.
Haley Radke: I'm curious what you did there for three years. Did you know people when you went back in 2004? Did you know where to stay? Did you work? Were you writing? It just seems like you just talked about going there on a one-way ticket, and I just thought, oh my goodness. I don't know if I could go anywhere on a one-way ticket. It just sounds so brave and courageous.
Julayne Lee: Right, and so I think one of the benefits that the overseas adopted Korean community has is that because we're, I think, the [00:13:00] oldest population of intercountry adoptees and have been going back to Korea for so many years, that there's quite an infrastructure in Korea. And so there's an organization called GOAL, which is Global Overseas Adoptees Link, and there's a link to it on my website.
And they're an NGO and they were founded by a group of overseas adopted Koreans who are back there, I think it's been over 20 years now. And from Europe, from the US, maybe from Canada too, I can't remember, but who just said, hey, we need resources. We're back here. We're not leaving. And so they help a lot of adoptees with birth family searches, or just if you need help getting a phone or getting your bank account set up, those tiny little things.
In Korea, if you don't have the language or know how the process works, that can be kind of a big thing. But if you are living there you need those things. So I was in contact with GOAL from when I had gone back previously, so I knew I had [00:14:00] that network and I actually knew two or three people who were living there. And a friend of mine from Minnesota had moved back months, I think, just a few months before me.
So I had a few people and then I actually moved there right before a huge conference. So there's overseas Korean adoptees, not only in the US and Canada, but Australia, a number of European countries like Denmark and Netherlands. All over the place. We're probably in at least a dozen countries. And so there was this huge conference in Korea. And so I got there just a couple days before that on purpose because I was like, okay, hopefully, the adoptees that live in Korea, they'll come out and I'll connect it with them. And which I did.
And so I remember when I started teaching university a couple weeks later and the teachers were like, oh, Julayne is a new teacher, we should invite her to dinner and stuff. And I always had plans and they're like, wow, she's so plugged in. But part of it was people that were actually living there, but then because people stayed after the conference, [00:15:00] then they were still there.
So it helped a lot to be able to just have that network and then have that event. Also to be able to connect me with the right people because things have changed in the few years since I had been there. But I found a job. Fortunately, last minute somebody was not able to come back, so I was able to get a job right away.
But I do think, yes, it was a little adventurous, I guess, but I just didn't see any other way to do it. I felt like if I put a time limit on it that I would be limiting myself potentially. And also if I said, oh, I'm going for a year, and then what if I get over there and in six months I was like, oh my gosh, this totally sucks, I'm leaving. Then I would feel like a failure.
So I was just like, no, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. And people would, again, how long will you stay there? And I would just say for as long as I do. [00:16:00] There shouldn't be a limit on it. And I know some people that have lived there much longer or lived there multiple times, and I think we all continue to have some type of interest or curiosity or pull back.
I know some people like never want to go back, or that's what they say, or they've never gone, and that's fine too. I just think it's also challenging because of the time. You want to go probably for at least two weeks, that would be ideal. And then it costs, and yeah, it can be challenging to make the experience actually work.
And I think a lot of people don't want to go alone necessarily, which is completely understandable because it can be terrifying. So I'm grateful that I was able to go with a group and some of those people I'm still in contact with and still friends with, which is great.
Haley Radke: It sounds like you were super active in building your community for yourself, which it is amazing. I'm curious, you mentioned before about your first time [00:17:00] going that you had started a birth search and were looking into the culture and things.
Did you ever really want to find your first family? Was that kind of a goal while you were there? Did you continue searching or did you leave that?
Julayne Lee: I think at the time there was a lot of focus on looking for your first family, and I think there still is. I think fortunately, I hope that the narrative has shifted enough that's not what people think that we're all about as adoptees, because it's not and some people want nothing to do with it or they reunite and it's a horrible experience. They get rejected again and again.
So I knew that with Korea. I knew because a lot of the agencies are completely dishonest and corrupt and fabricate files, fabricate profiles of children, that it would be a challenge. And so I'm still looking. I think my reasons and my quest to make connections with my Korean family have shifted over the [00:18:00] years.
I mean, it's a loss. It's a loss. I don't think there's any other way to say it. Somebody on Twitter the other day was like, and they're an adoptee, they said, okay, hey, adoptees, what's a phrase or a word that you can't stand when it comes to adoption? And it's: Oh, we love you so much. You were meant to be in our family. Yeah, I see you shaking your head, whatever. Okay. We get it, right? It's no, I don't think so.
Haley Radke: That reminds me of one of your poems that you have this list of over 20 things that people have said to you about being adopted, which I'm sure we can all imagine what those are.
Julayne Lee: Exactly. I would love it if people, one thing they get out of listening to this podcast is that adoptees are not one-dimensional. It's not all about birth family search because it's opening up sometimes. It's opening up old wounds. You just don't know. So would I still love to know the facts and the truth. Absolutely. [00:19:00]
I know that a lot of people are doing DNA testing right now. There's a part of me that refuses to pay for it because I think the Korean government should pay for it. I think the adoption agencies should pay for it. I also think that with searching, I know some people have hired private detectives or whoever, and, yes, the government should pay for that.
What I find ironic is that there's all this talk about reunification between North and South Korea, which I'm all for. And there are families that have been divided between the North and the South and like all this push and movement to reunite those families and yes, absolutely. And then at the same time over here, we're continually dividing families and doing nothing to help those of us who want to reunite with our birth families, actually doing the opposite and keeping information from us.
And so I just find that a great irony within Korea. Who do you [00:20:00] think you are to be so hypocritical and that it's okay? And that we would not notice, that we would not notice.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Even when you were talking about how the trips are like partially sponsored by the Korean government, that's the least they could do, the very bare minimum.
Julayne Lee: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Speaking of Twitter, I just wanna read one of your tweets from a couple days ago.
**Julayne Lee:**Gosh. Oh no.
Haley Radke: It's nothing bad. It's great.
Julayne Lee: Which one?
Haley Radke: It's great.
Julayne Lee: Oh, I know which one you're gonna read.
Haley Radke: Oh, okay. Let's see if you're right. You're replying to someone who I just think is ridiculous, and so I'm not even gonna mention, but you say,
“I regret that adoption has to exist. I regret that families have to be divided. I regret that my name, culture, language were erased and silenced. I regret that child trafficking is presented as “adoption.” I regret that TRAs (meaning transracially adopted people) experience racism in our own families.”
Well said [00:21:00] and thought. Anything else you wanna elaborate on?
Julayne Lee: If Twitter had more characters, I would probably have gone on, but I feel like I've tweeted other renditions of that before. But yeah, that could have been like a whole thread, right? I mean, I just thought it was interesting how many other adoptees were like retweeting and doing their own version too. And I think it's, again, it's like developing that counter narrative and developing their own narrative, which has been fairly absent, I feel.
And so thank goodness for Adoptees On podcast because it gets more of our voices out into the world and makes it more accessible, not just for adoptees to feel validated and like they're not alone, but hopefully people actually, other than adoptees, listen to us and learn, oh, okay, a lot of them are saying similar things, like maybe I should sit back and listen. Take a step back.
Haley Radke: So I mentioned at the beginning I was really excited to talk to you because I followed you for a long time and I think you're a very [00:22:00] strong voice. And when we do our recommended resources, I'm gonna talk a little bit about your book.
And I'm curious, I don't know how to ask this. I hope I'm being polite. Okay. Julayne, you just call me out if I'm not. So I have noticed that as I go on in my thirties, like I get braver, I don't care as much what people think. And I'm curious how that has been for you as the years have gone by in activism, how that has affected your ability to just say it like you mean it.
Like even as we've been talking, I notice you just call it like it is, you're not trying to sugarcoat things for people. You're really speaking up. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.
Julayne Lee: Absolutely, I do. I think after I started to connect with adult adoptees in Minnesota, like I really didn't know anything about the Korean War and then people were like, oh yeah, that is still happening, like Korean adoptions are still happening even [00:23:00] though the country has developed so much.
And not to say that there aren't still working-class, maybe poor people in Korea, but look at K-pop, look at Samsung, look at capitalism, right? And so before I moved back to Korea, I was like, why is this still happening? And I had all these thoughts and feelings of this needs to fricking stop. This is not okay.
But yet I felt like saying anything about that would have been just like I would've been criticized so much, even in the adoptee community. So it was like very quiet conversations with some friends that they're like, we need to do something. I don't know. I was like, should I start an organization? I dunno. So I was involved in the Korean Adoptee organization in Minnesota, but it didn't have a critique or a political aspect to it at that time.
I think overall the adoptee community has changed and evolved since then. But when I was moving back to Korea, so I [00:24:00] spent a couple weeks on the West coast in California and such before I actually got to Korea just visiting with friends. And I remember getting this email from a Korean adoptee who I had known in Minnesota.
She moved back to Korea like a year before, and they were starting this organization called Adoptee Solidarity Korea. And the purpose of the organization was to have a critical look at intercountry adoption. Why is this happening? Does it still need to be happening? What are the factors and what is Korea doing about it and what can we do about it? So it was like the first political organization to take this critical approach to adoption.
And not to say that we think adoptees are bad, but it's like adoption under certain circumstances is bad. It's like we've said, it's dividing family and through Adoptee Solidarity Korea it really gave me a community that validated my feelings around [00:25:00] adoption and gave me space and a place to voice some pretty strong opinions that I felt like I couldn't even say before.
And we experienced some backlash to some of the work that we were trying to do. And so I think that backlash is not exactly fun. I don’t know anybody who enjoys backlash, but because we were all going through it together. I mean, I look back on that now and I think that experience gave me whatever it is that somebody needs to be able to weather the storm when you take an unpopular view.
And I did start writing. You asked, what were you doing for you? So I was teaching English. What were you doing there for three and a half years? I taught English to university students. I traveled a lot. I was involved in ASK, so that was busy. But I did start.
I've done some writing before I moved back to Korea, but I think because Korea just exasperated a lot of [00:26:00] things for me. And it was like writing was the only way I could make sense of things just because I didn't always have the words to voice how I felt and all these conflicting feelings and emotions I would have on an ongoing basis and trying to get up and work every day.
But I think when you write nobody's there to correct. It's not like here we're recording this, I get one chance with you today. I was listening to Hanif Abdurraqib last night. He's a poet in the Midwest, and he was saying, it's like every poem is really a set of questions. And I've heard other writers say every draft is like notes for your final product. And so it's like writing, and it wasn't necessarily journaling, some was journaling, but like just writing.
And then I had friends who had a monthly fundraiser and they would switch off whether it was like DJs, bands, and then started doing an open mic. And so I feel [00:27:00] like writing is, was one step for me. And then being able to actually speak those words that were very, during that time a lot of my culture was super, super angry, but being able to say those words out loud with an audience, they're kind of a captive group. It's very validating, it's very cathartic.
And then some of my friends would say, wow, that's exactly what I was thinking, or exactly how I felt, or whatever. And some people wanted to talk to me about it after those, but I really didn't wanna talk to anybody about it. I just need to get this out. But one of my friends too, I remember.
We were taking a break during the open mic and so we were outside. I was reading at the end and she was having a cigarette and so I was just reading through whatever I was planning to read that night, just practicing. And she said to me, are you gonna read something angry? I hope you read something angry.
I was like, yes, reading something. Like at that point I don't think there was anything that wasn't [00:28:00] angry. Let's just put it that way. But I think anger is a really interesting thing. During National Adoption Awareness Month in November, which I know some of us adoptees have tried to reclaim and get our voices out there more that month.
But I posted something on Twitter and just said, what are you angry about? And I still am a little baffled and I find it very interesting how much interaction that tweet got, because I was basically just trying to say, hey, it's okay if you're angry, but talk about it.
And a lot of people were saying very similar things. There were definitely some themes, and I basically said, only adoptees should be commenting and that other people need to sit and listen. But it's like anger. What I've learned from myself is that it's not a bad thing.
I don't believe in good or bad emotions or right or wrong emotions. You can't always control how you feel. I feel that if you try and control how you feel, that can actually be pretty damaging. Because I feel like sometimes [00:29:00] people have tried to control how I feel, like you should be grateful because you're adopted, you should feel different.
It's like you feel how you feel and then the decisions you make in response to your feelings. I think that's where we have to make the best choices that we can. And I read this book called Anger. It's by Thich Nhat Hanh, and I was afraid to read it. I read it. I bought it in 2017, I was at a meditation retreat, so I bought it in 2017.
My book was coming out in 2018, and one of the things my publisher said to me when we were pre-contract. They were like, one of the things we like about your manuscript is that there's so much anger in it. And I was like, wow, usually it's oh my gosh, you're so angry. Get over it. Don't overreact. So it's like the fact that they liked that.
And then I found this book on anger and I was afraid to read it because I was like, oh my gosh, am I [00:30:00] going to read this and then I have to not have my angry poems in the book? But it wasn't like that at all. It was just about hey, take care of your anger. Embrace your anger. Pay attention to it. There's nothing wrong with being angry. But it's what you do with it that can have a long lasting, positive impact. Or it could have negative results too.
So I think anger is an interesting thing, and there's another poet I follow on Twitter, Chen Chen, who, I think the phrase he came up with the other day. He tweeted something about angry joy. And I need to find the tweet again because it was like whatever he was discussing, I was like, yes, that is such a thing. Angry joy, like now I'm like, okay, I need to figure out how that fits in my life.
But I feel like we have to make space for the whole spectrum of our thoughts and our emotions because that's who we are.
Haley Radke: I have one more question for you in that same vein. [00:31:00] So as you tweet and you're calling stuff out and you post and write. There are a few adoptees who I am watching and listening to, especially in this time, and I'm a white woman and I'm totally aware of that. So I am just taking it in and seeing, okay, what are my next steps?
And so as I watch you and other adoptee leaders calling out racism and different, very problematic things, I wonder how you are balancing this. The anger at the injustices and also being able to be listened to and heard, because I think that trope is the “angry adoptee” that just spews venom. And no one's gonna listen to them unless they like a hundred percent agree. [00:32:00] because it's uncomfortable. And how do you balance that?
I think you do it really well. And I think there's a few other adoptees that really do this well. How do you balance saying the challenging things and speaking from the heart, but not alienating everyone and losing some of your audience, who hopefully you can change their mind and change their perspective.
Julayne Lee: Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't really thought about that too much before, but I guess, I think Twitter's an interesting place. I mean, social media is.
Haley Radke: That’s the truth.
Julayne Lee: Yeah. But I actually opened my Twitter account maybe eight or nine years ago, because we were using it at work. And I was like I need to learn how to use it. I need to learn how it works. And my account was locked down, it was private. And then with my book coming out, people are like, you can keep it that way, but maybe you wanna make it public. And I was like, oh no. And then they're like, oh, and you should get Instagram. I was like, [00:33:00] oh no.
So I think it's something that I have to constantly finesse because, yes, there are days when I just want to rage on Twitter. I think we all probably have those days. And then sometimes I step back and I'm like, okay, would I say this to this person's face? Sometimes yes, I would, but I like to ask a lot of questions too, because I think that opens up a conversation. You can ask questions that are pretty pointed that get the point of point across but that do leave it open a little bit.
But I think I recognize too that I have a lot to learn still. I've learned so much from adoptee Twitter. Oh my gosh. For somebody who went from their Twitter account being completely private, now I wish there was this thing that would time me out. You've spent too much time on Twitter today. But like all the adoptees I've connected with. It's there's like an adoptive Twitter community, there's constantly people who are like, that I've never met, and I probably never will, but who are like, Hey, [00:34:00] I'm having a bad day because of this with my adoptive mom or my birth mom, or whatever.
And we're always like, we're here for you no matter what. So I think one of the things I've learned that kind of saddens me, and that I guess in some ways I shouldn't be surprised by this, but I found it just for some reason. I guess I thought the younger generation would not be having the same issues. I'm like, they have so many more resources. But just because the resources are there, somebody didn't give you access to them or support you in pursuing that supportive environment, then no, the same issues are still ongoing.
So it's quite sad to me that the adoption industry, if you will, has not changed at all, which they should be doing way better because we're not the first ones to tell them that they've messed up.
Haley Radke: I wonder if you think this sometimes. I feel like [00:35:00] some of the things that a lot of the agencies are doing now, it's just like this gross lip service.
Julayne Lee: Oh sure.
Haley Radke: They're like, oh, we have these supports for you, these support groups for you. But it's not what we need. And so they can say, oh no, we are doing these things. But, really, it's worthless in my opinion.
Julayne Lee: From my understanding, a lot of the agencies provide post-adoption services or PAS until we turn 16 or something like that. All of the resources for adult adoptees that I'm aware of, the ones that are viable, we've created because we know what didn't work and they don't provide. Like they should provide funding for those things. Like we shouldn't have to struggle for resources. And your website is an awesome resource.
Just hey, here's a group of. [00:36:00] mental health professionals that are adoptees, if that's what you're looking for. That alone is huge. Just to be like, oh, boom. But I, yeah, I just think that people don't understand. Like somebody asked that on Twitter the other day too. They already said adoptees need post-adoption services our entire lives, and we are all like, yeah. It's not like you graduate from being an adoptee.
It's not like it ends when you become an adult. We don't age out of being an adoptee. This is a lifelong journey. It doesn't end. And when I was looking at the website, it's yeah, it comes into play when you start talking about relationships and having your own kids and like doing the birth family search and the reunion. It's this constant navigation.
I feel like it's this constant navigation of life and of society because the only people who I feel really get us, is us. Yes, there are some allies out there who get it, but they're few and far between. And I feel like they end up taking up more space instead of us just, like, stepping back and [00:37:00] saying, hey, you need to try to validate us.
Haley Radke: There's that too.
Julayne Lee: Yeah. The reason you said that you started Adoptees On was because the podcasts you were finding were for adoptive parents and there was nothing for us. So you created this for us. Thank you. Because as I was looking through the list, I was like, oh good, there's people on here that I would really love to hear them talk about their books, but because of the pandemic, but it's like, hey, I can hear them on the podcast. That's awesome.
Haley Radke: Thanks for saying that. I do think. I dunno, when you're talking about that, all I can think of is that on Twitter, if you're following, like any adoption hashtags, right? A lot of it is adoptive parents being like, we need more supports. I'm like, really? You need more supports? Okay. Great. Maybe you should have fundraised a little more. [00:38:00]
Julayne Lee: Don't go. Don't GoFund me.
Haley Radke: No. Okay. Let's move into doing our recommended resources and I wanna give a little space to talking about your book of poetry, which is called Not My White Savior, which is such a perfect title. I love it.
And as you mentioned, even your publisher said there's a lot of anger in your writing and I just felt it was really powerful and it's political, it's activist oriented. I really appreciated how you included some comments about adoptees we've lost to suicide.
It's very insightful and you learn a lot about Korea, especially if you're not familiar with the Korean adoption program and those kinds of things. It's a wealth of knowledge. I really, really enjoyed it and it's also very challenging to read emotionally because you take us on a rollercoaster, Julayne.
One of my favorites, and we're [00:39:00] gonna have to beep this, unfortunately, is called “[censored You, White Barbie.”
Julayne Lee: Oh my gosh. I'll go ahead, I'll comment.
Haley Radke: No, please. I wanna hear you comment on that.
Julayne Lee: That was actually the initial title of the book.
Haley Radke: Perfect.
Julayne Lee: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Okay.
Julayne Lee: And then I had a conversation or two with my attorney and we decided that might not be the best idea, but the poem stayed. So the poem is still there forever.
Haley Radke: It's very good. It's a very good one. I feel like I learned a lot about you in this and you share some very revealing things, very personal things, and I really appreciate it and I think any adoptee could connect to this book.
And when I was researching you for today's interview, I found that you have some of your readings online on YouTube. So if you wanna hear Julayne read her poems, you can hear some of them on YouTube. One more thing before [00:40:00] I’ll give you a minute to chat about your book, as well, but if you wanna hear more from Julayne, on her website she's got some links to some other podcast appearances and especially I would recommend the episode you did with Kaomi on Adapted, which is an excellent podcast.
I learned a lot. I thought it was really well done and, yeah, if you just can't get enough of our conversation, you can keep hearing more from Julayne on a few other podcasts she's been on. Okay. I'm curious now, I wanna give you a minute. So, that was the alternate title, so Not My White Savior. Do you wanna talk about that?
Julayne Lee: You mean how I came up with not my white savior?
Haley Radke: The title? Just what you wanted to give people when you wrote these poems.
Julayne Lee: I never planned to write a book. That was never the plan, 'cause I hear writers who will say, okay, I'm gonna write this many books, and I think it's great to [00:41:00] have goals, but that was never the plan.
I heard some Asian American poets in Minnesota at an adoptee event, and they weren't all adoptees. One of them was. The name of the group was Hmong Girl (sp?), and it was the first time that on stage I heard people who looked like me angry about things that I was also angry about. But yet I didn't even know, or I didn't have a way to say anything about being angry about how I was treated for my identity and so on.
And so through that I just started going to different poetry readings because I just found it very validating and got to know a lot of who the Asian American poets are. And went to a couple writing workshops. But again, I was not calling myself a poet at all. I was just like, oh, this seems interesting. And so I would go.
And then, like I said, I wrote more when I was in Korea, but it really was a way to process things. It was a way [00:42:00] to understand what I was dealing with. And then when I moved to California in 2013, I had this moment when I was packing. I just felt like, I don't know. I felt like there was going to be something about moving to California that was going to be like some type of milestone.
Not just moving to California, but I didn't know what it was, but I just had this feeling and I still remember that moment in my living room. I was packing. And I went to this seminar and I had been thinking like, hey, I'm gonna write a book. And I had no idea what genre it would be. I had no idea what it would be, just, hey, I'm gonna write a book.
And a friend of mine, my friend, who I had met at Barnes & Noble that day, she had told me a few years before that, she felt something. She had said something to the effect of, not necessarily a book, but just about telling my story. And so going along, I went to this social event, and this is like shortly after I moved to southern [00:43:00] California. So I lived in Long Beach and this event was in LA and with people from all over the world.
And this woman, she was a palm reader, or she liked to say a hand analyst, and she must have asked me to tell her something about myself. And then she's, let me see, you are going to be published. And I was just like, oh ha, ha, ha. Thank you. Have a nice evening because I was like, you have no idea, whatever. And I went to the seminar and we all had to say a goal that we've been having. So I said I'm gonna write a book.
And I was taking some writing workshops and then a poet that I admired and known for a long time, who just came out with a book as well, OCIA (sp?), he invited me to this open mic. I was like, okay, I'm doing some writing now. It might be good to go on open mic, maybe read some of it, just see how it's working.
And I didn't read anything that first night, but I was just like, okay [00:44:00] this seems like an okay space. And so I went back the next week and I read something and there were a couple people there who were like, hey, if you're interested in writing a book, we’re part of this program. And come and talk to us afterwards.
And, yeah, it's called Community Literature Initiative and it's based in LA and at the end of the nine-month writing program, you go through this author draft, you get up and I had seven minutes to read my poetry and pitch my book. And there's different publishers there. And that's what happened.
And my publisher, actually, when they had come to visit our class, at that time, they were not publishing poetry. And I was like, I'm gonna change that. And yeah, as they say, the rest is history, that's what happened. And so I've really only called myself a poet for a couple of years. Because it's okay, now that I'm gonna write a book, I guess I have to call myself a poet because I would go to all these literary events and book festivals.[00:45:00] because I just loved it.
And people would always ask me like, oh, are you a writer because you show up at this book event or whatever. I'm like, no, I write checks. That's it. I mean, I write emails, but I just felt like if I was going to say, yes, I'm a writer. Yes, I'm a poet, then there are expectations and I just didn't want that. I was just like, no, I'm just doing this thing for myself on the side.
Haley Radke: And I'm curious if you can say what does the phrase, not my white savior, mean to you?
Julayne Lee: Not my white savior means to me, and I don't think that you have to be white to be a white savior. I just wanna make that loud and clear. I've seen plenty of non-white people act like white saviors.
I've probably even done it too. I don't know. Growing up in a white church, I probably have done this, but I think when it comes to adoption, knowing that for intercountry and transracial adoption, most adopters are white. And I think there is a savior mentality [00:46:00] like, oh if you had grown up here or there, you wouldn't have these opportunities.
You wouldn't have an education, you wouldn't have, and that can very well be true. At the same time, I don't think it's necessary for adoptees to have to hear that from their adoptive parents. I feel like that's not helpful. And we didn't ask you to save us. We didn't ask to be divided from our families and have all this trauma in our lives. But yet there's this let's pat ourselves on the back because we saved this child from this wretched third world country.
And it's okay, if that's how you wanna look at yourself, that's fine, but that's not how I see it. And that's why it's like this, hey, you're not my white savior. Yes, I can be appreciative of the educational opportunities I've had, but I can also be critical of the whole system that continues to fail us into adulthood. And the system is not there to keep families [00:47:00] together.
I've become more and more. Interested in learning more about the foster care system and how it also just really fails people. There's a couple of documentaries and web series that I've watched, and I remember this one woman who I think she had aged out of the foster care system at that point and was incarcerated, and she said, there's all this funding to support like the foster care system and adoption.
She's like, why not prioritize that funding to keep families together and family preservation?
Haley Radke: Yeah, up upstream.
Julayne Lee: Exactly. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Thank you. I definitely recommend Julayne's book, Not My White Savior. And I'm curious what you brought for us today. What do you wanna recommend to us?
Julayne Lee: I would like to recommend the website called Adoptee Reading, and it's adopteereading.com, and I [00:48:00] discovered it in the midst of my book coming out. Karen Pickell, I think that's how you say her name. She runs the website and it's got all these great filters you can filter by.
Is it domestic adoption? Intercountry. Transracial. You can filter by country; you can filter by was it written by an adoptee or not? I recommend it to so many people and it's interesting to me how many adoptees still don't know about it, which is another reason I put it on my website.
It's a great resource and I feel like sometimes I know that, like you've mentioned on your website, that you have different groups to attend and support groups that people are looking for, as well. But I think sometimes people want to just do some work on their own and read on their own. Just observe and lurk on the internet.
Because a lot of people say that in adoptee Facebook groups, they'll be like, hey, I've been here for a while. I think I'm ready. And I feel like reading is one way, that it can be an avenue for people [00:49:00] to feel validated, feel seen, to maybe dive into what they've been experiencing, but just never had words for, never had anywhere to go.
So I appreciate all the work that Karen has done and continues, and it's gotta be this labor of love. It's amazing. It's amazing to see how many books we've published.
Haley Radke: Oh, for sure. She keeps it up to date with new releases. Absolutely. She does an outstanding job. I don't think a lot of people know this, but on Patreon I'm doing an adoptee reading Book Club for the year.
And actually one of my cohosts Carrie and I read your book. And so we reviewed it on the Patreon podcast a few months ago. Which is what led me to reach out to you. And I have all these different categories, and so I'll often go to Karen's website to find books to make sure I know what to read next.
So yes, great recommendation. We've talked about it before and it's an amazing resource, adopteereading.com. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing your [00:50:00] story with us and your insights. Can you let us know where we can connect with you online?
Julayne Lee: Sure. So my website is julaynelee.com, and on there you can find links to my Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Medium.
I'm probably most active on Twitter. I don't always follow back, just saying, sometimes it doesn't happen, so please don't feel bad if I don't follow back. Don't take it personally.
Haley Radke: Don't follow you and unfollow you and unfollow. Follow you and unfollow till you follow back.
Julayne Lee: People do that and I don't care. I probably don't even notice. I dunno.
Haley Radke: I notice sometimes, but I'm not on enough to pay attention to that.
Julayne Lee: Yeah, like I said, I'm probably on there too much.
Haley Radke: It was such an honor to talk to you today. I'm so glad we got to connect. Thank you so much.
I'm so glad I got to have that conversation with Julayne, and I encourage you to follow her and be challenged. I think that [00:51:00] you will find her writing very impactful. I wanna say a big thank you to my monthly supporters, without which this podcast would not exist. And so thank you. If you want the show to continue, if you think it's important, go to adopteeson.com/partner to find out more details.
And one of the fun things, like I mentioned to Julayne, that we're doing this year is we are doing an Adoptee Book Club. And so every month Carrie and I will review some adoptee-written books. We've been going through all kinds of different things. The month we read Julayne's book was poetry. We've done fiction, nonfiction, memoir, all kinds, and there have been some real gems, and I think we will have some more interviews coming out of those book reviews.
So if that sounds interesting to you and you need more adoptee talk in your life. One of the bonuses for [00:52:00] Patreon supporters is another weekly podcast called Adoptees Off Script, where we include some of these book reviews. So adopteeson.com/partner to help the show continue. Thank you so much, and thanks for listening.
Let's talk again very soon.
