173 [Healing Series] Estrangement Part 2
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/173
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today we are continuing last week's conversation about estrangement. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Pam Cordano. Welcome back, Pam.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Thank you. Hi to you and hi to everybody.
Haley Radke: So I gave you a hard time last time. We're probably still going to talk about hard things.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Probably since the subject is hard.
Haley Radke: Yeah. So we are talking about estrangement, and last time we talked about some of the deeper-rooted causes for estrangement and why we would choose that. [00:01:00] Why sometimes it's our adoptive parents that choose that on our behalf. I want to continue that conversation. One of the things you mentioned was that you had a two-year estrangement from your adoptive parents. What made you decide to go back and reconnect? How did that happen for you?
Pam Cordano, MFT: I had really good reasons for choosing the estrangement, and my reasons were good enough that they could have lasted for the rest of my parents' lives. I had enough reason to have a permanent estrangement with my adoptive parents but, oh, the truth is, it cost me a lot. For me personally. Being in a state of estrangement with them cost me a lot. It wasn't so hard with my dad. He wasn't much of a parent to me and I hated him, but my mom was a mixed bag [00:02:00]. She required a lot. It was hard to be her daughter in a lot of ways. It was exhausting in a lot of ways. But there was also a kind of generosity she gave me. Like I mentioned in our last session, I was bonded to her in a certain way. I came to them when I was six months old and she kept me alive, so there was something there in me connected to, attached to her. I remember being estranged for those two years and I hated that I was so uncomfortable being apart, being that far apart from them. I was like two people at once, and I think that's often how adoptees feel. Like there's two or more parts of us that are in a terrible kind of competition. So the older, principal part of me was like, I have every right to not be in a relationship with these people. And with my mom, it was because she was still in a relationship with my dad, like what he had done wasn't so [00:03:00] bad for her that she would leave him. So she, in my mind, was betraying me. So there's that part of me that felt older and more in my head, like more principled, more in my mind. But at this very deep, young core part of me, it was unbearable to have made a break like that with them. It's like in that place where there isn't language–the younger than language place–that part of me didn't have the language even for arguments, but just felt lost and alone and frightened and untethered. I already was aware I was untethered from my biological family, but then untethered from the only people that I had any kind of family relationship with. I had my adoptive parents and me, the only child, and my mom and dad were both only children also, so I didn't have aunts or uncles or cousins or anybody. So I was on this planet alone with no family. [00:04:00] They were my only family. So there was something I felt inside of me that felt like it was really hard to be estranged.
So I did a lot of therapy in those two years and I worked really hard and I grew, but I also at some point realized: Okay, fine. I want my mom back in some limited capacity and he comes with the package. So I got more grounded in what I can really expect from either of them. My dad, nothing. My mom, not much. So that's where I was more prepared to go back into a limited kind of relationship. Because it was when I had expected things to be right, that it didn't work out. And they weren't going to be right. So I made a decision to go back in where things were not right and they were not going to be right but I still wanted a limited kind of relationship with them. And I don't regret it, which is good to know. [00:05:00]
Haley Radke: So you had a period of two years where you were fully estranged. And then did you stay in relationship with them for the rest of their lives?
Pam Cordano, MFT: Yes, in a limited way.
Haley Radke: Limited way, yeah. So here's a comment, I mentioned before in our last episode that I had asked listeners to give me some comments on if they had ever considered estrangement from their adoptive families. And so here's another note from a listener: “I have a superficial relationship with my adoptive parents. We have long periods of silence, sometimes years. I've grown to accept it for what it is now, and I'm okay with “playing along” for their egos’ sake.” [00:06:00] So when you're talking about your relationship and seeing other adoptees who do stay in relationship, what's your experience with something like this? Saying that you have a superficial relationship? It sounds like this person is doing that to protect themselves in some fashion.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Right. And so I think. with everybody in our lives, getting clear on what's actually a reality and what's actually possible and what isn't, is fundamental. Because if we're confused about what's possible, like for me to try to get my dad to take some responsibility in the breakdown of our relationship from my infancy, for which he held me responsible, I'm just going to be exhausting myself, frustrating myself. I'm going to be out of touch with reality. He's not going to do that. He's not going to get it. And then trying to get my mom to get it in her role in the whole thing, she's not going to get it. Before I could reunite with them, I had to really get clear on what was not possible so that then I could only relate where things were possible. And I think a lot of times that's what we call superficial. Superficial relationships are where only a limited amount is [00:07:00] really possible in the relationship. And so that's where we stay because the cost of a full estrangement sometimes is too hard. Other times it's the only thing that's going to work.
Haley Radke: You expressed this to me before, and I don't think we were on record then, but that something needed to change. If it isn't going to be the adoptive parents' perspective, actions, behavior, all that, then it has to be us. We have to change. And so what does that mean?
Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. That really is about getting clear on what really is and isn't possible. Like if our parents or families, if anybody in our lives lacks capacity in some way, it really helps us to get clear that that's just the case, and then we can make new decisions about that. [00:08:00]
Haley Radke: Yeah. So I have this quote on the superficial relationship. I have someone else that said, which I thought was really profound actually: “I'm in contact with my adoptive parents but I'm emotionally estranged.” I thought, Man, that's a good line–emotionally estranged. And the buzzword we always say is the “boundaries.” So if you're still choosing to be in relationship but it's only going to be safe for you and look a certain way–like I only allow them access to my external life and not my internal feelings, etc. I have lots of experience and notes here. Here's what I'll share about my personal experience: my psychologists have coached me for many years in relationships with all kinds of people, saying which people are in which circle of your life, [00:09:00] right? And like the outside, you're only sharing what the weather is like with these people in the big circle. And then your smallest circle, your inner safe people, they can know that inner life for us, our feelings and thoughts and like the true Haley, right? So looking at those circles, is that what you're getting at? That knowledge of which level of circle can you safely be in with your adoptive parents?
Pam Cordano, MFT: Right, and I think the process of figuring that out can be complicated. I know a lot of adoptees who just keep hitting their head against the same wall, just trying to get their adoptive parents to change and get it. So I wanted my mom to protect me from my dad, from his rage and from his rejection and from his meanness. From the time I was four, I can remember arguing and arguing with my adoptive mom to protect me from my dad. [00:10:00] I was just angry with her all the time and telling her what she should have said, what she should have done, what she's not doing right, all the time. To keep doing that was awful. But as I got to be an adult, it was better at some level than just stopping the madness and feeling the truth. And the truth is, I grew up with a scary, enraged man who didn't protect me and with a woman who chose him over me in these situations. And what did that feel like? That felt terrifying and all these terrible things. That's the feeling that's going to get me out of the repetitive pattern of trying to get her to do this thing that she's never done.
So when you talked about the circles of who can you have close in and who can you have kind of in, and more further out? When we have confusion about that we have the wrong people too close in and the right people too far out to get clear on where people really belong [00:11:00] relative to us. If we keep repeating a pattern over and over again, probably we could stop and maybe with the help of a therapist go in and feel what the problem actually feels like. And by feeling that problem–this goes back to the end of our last conversation–by really feeling the place that we're suffering and that we've been suffering and that we don't know what to do about it and the helplessness of all of that, and the grief and everything else, that is like a doorway into the power of a new decision. Then we could have different boundaries that we could actually uphold or maintain because we're not avoiding this awful feeling. We've discovered that we can feel it and we can come through it in some other way.
Haley Radke: I think, gosh, it's so easy for me to be the adoptee and to be pointing at the other people to [00:12:00] change, and coming back to, well, most people don't change. That's just the reality. Just in general. In life most people stay stagnant. And I wouldn't say that's true of my listeners because a lot of you, I know, are in therapy and are working on things and you are constantly moving forward. And so then, when we're in relationship with people who aren't doing that and are staying stagnant, coming back to Okay well, I guess my next thing is strengthening my own person and being in a place where it does feel safe that I can hold those boundaries. I think what I've heard from adoptees is like, I'm so busy working on who I really am. I don't have the capacity to be holding those boundaries to protect myself. So that's when relationship is just off the table. It's not a safe thing.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah, I loved how [00:13:00] you said “strengthening my person” because the cool thing about when we strengthen our person, then we can better support estrangement that feels right to us and we can better support not-estrangement if that feels right to us. If we can really direct traffic more clearly from that hard work of strengthening our person.
Haley Radke: Here's a couple more notes from people. “I'm not estranged, but I have limited contact”, so that felt good to them. And another said: “I'm completely estranged. It was my choice and I've never felt more free.” And then a third: “I haven't considered estrangement. They're not perfect but they're trainable.” I tell you, I cackled when I first read that one. I was like, they're “trainable!” And then the last one I'm going to share is: “I am distanced from both my adoptive parents and bio family [00:14:00] because I need space to grow my own family and to be myself.” Aren't those all expressions of the same sort of thing, like all of them?
Pam Cordano, MFT: Right. What makes me so excited is when I see adoptees filling out the space of who they are, whatever that means. Whether they're full of passion about something or whether they're full of rage about something, or hope or grief. When I see adoptees filling out their own space and being more fully who they are, then I just feel like they're on the right track. That's when they're on the right track, and we can feel it when we're around people where we want to shrivel in, we want to go into hiding and put on a false face, and speak with a false voice and say false things, and say “yes” when we mean “no.” Say “no” when we mean “yes.” And we feel what [00:15:00] that feels like; it's like this shrinking in. Anne Heffron and I are teaching these Flourish classes twice a week. We have got over 50 adoptees altogether in these classes. And that is such a theme: adoptees taking up space and risking saying things and verbalizing things, finding their own voices, and that's going to be supported and not offensive or hurtful or wrong and bad, somehow.
Haley Radke: So I know we are all in very different spots, but can you teach us a little bit about when would we know–if we are already estranged–that we could reconnect? If that should even be on the table? And then what are some things that we could see that this is a no-go zone? Like this is never going to work. [00:16:00] Can you speak to that a little bit? I don't want it to be prescriptive. Because we're all in so many very unique situations, I know this will be high level, but maybe some questions we could ask ourselves to assess, to figure that out.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Well, let's see. The people I know who are estranged felt so sick from their interactions. It was like drinking poison. So sick, like more sick than they could tolerate and bear, so sick that when they would get off the phone or get away from an in-person meeting, they would have to recover and it would be hard to do the daily functioning of their lives. Like really sick. And different things make us feel sick differently. So I think that if you–meaning listeners– are feeling [00:17:00] that the cost of a phone conversation or of an in-person time together is just so terrible to your systems. And if you find yourself just wanting to cancel every time you get together with or talk to anybody or making up excuses saying you're sick when you're not, or whatever. And it just may be something to think about. Either more boundaries need to be put into place. Maybe you need a therapist to help you do that and figure that out and how to verbalize it. And, how to work with your particular parents so that you can verbalize it in a way that's actually effective and gets through and maybe minimizes drama.
But also, sometimes people just know that the only way to save myself is to get completely out. I think there's a knowing there, and it isn't necessarily an objective situation like, well, if this and that and this and that, then definitely get out. It's not external. It's internal. We know that point where it's: Okay, either we're gonna die in this situation, [00:18:00] we're gonna get sick, we're gonna whatever, or we have to get out to save ourselves. And then you asked about getting back and how do we know when to get back? Sometimes if we're doing our own work during an estranged period and we start to feel a shift in us to like, You know what? I think if she does that again, I think I could handle it. If he does this or doesn't do that, I think I could handle it differently. Maybe it's worth checking out. If there starts to be an openness inside of us, that's a sign. Or if they're also doing their work, they're writing letters and saying, Look, we're thinking about this differently. We're seeing a therapist. We're thinking about what you've said. We're understanding you differently. We're not all the way there yet, but we'd really like to open up some communication even if it's the form of letter writing or some kind of compromise. Then, you know you've got people who are willing to go through some pain to grow and change and open to reunite with you. So that's something, maybe. It depends on the [00:19:00] family, of course. But that's something. So externally, there might be some signs that some work is being done and that there's a devotion in place that might be worth revisiting. Maybe only in a therapist's office, or with a third party, or something. Or maybe very slowly. Slow is good. Slow is really good.
Haley Radke: On purpose, I chose, based on requests from listeners, like many multiple requests to talk about estrangement from adoptive parents. On purpose, this series is about that. And we've covered so many times about reunions breaking down with first families. Like so many times. And so, it's like I have a handle on that. Like, guys, do it slow. It can be a rollercoaster. It's all like ups and downs. So to hear you flip it with adoptive parents, the reconnection, it's just like we know a [00:20:00] lot of these things, and yet it just feels like such a different angle. I don't know. That's what's going through my head.
Pam Cordano, MFT: That’s true. It is a different angle. It's so similar but so different at the same time. In some ways easier, in some ways harder, it seems. Meaning we can easily make this case that we're not even related to you anyway, so who cares? It's like this is all a lie. I've heard people say that. That may make it easier, but the harder part is that there was some measure of bonding when we were too little to even have a choice about it because we had needs and they met our needs enough that we're still alive. So that's in place inside of our bodies as a thing. We don't have that with our biological families the same way.
Haley Radke: And for so many of us that did grow up in the average, safe-ish, “normal” kind of home, those people are the [00:21:00] keepers of our memories as well, right? They have the pictures and the family home videos and all those kinds of things from our childhood. So sometimes estrangement can bring out a feeling of loss of all those things, even like physical artifacts. Especially when you're searching for identity, you want to cling. Cling onto that.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah, I'll take anything. Anything.
Haley Radke: Gosh, yeah, so many layers to this. I appreciate it so much. You've given us so many good insights. Is there anything that I didn't ask you about? Anything you really think we need to hear? Anything else? And again, I don't want to say estrangement is the right thing to do, or it's wrong and you really should try and be reconnecting. It's not meant to be that. We're really just talking about this so you know you're not alone, so we're making wise choices, so we're not [00:22:00] stuffing the feelings down, even though I really like to do that. Anything else?
Pam Cordano, MFT: The last thought I have is that it's terribly uncomfortable, but also possibly real and true that when we are estranged or partially estranged or emotionally estranged, neither side feels comfortable. It isn't that estrangement feels good per se, it's just that it feels less bad than being in a relationship or fuller relationship. That's part of the cost of coming out of the fog, right? It's like this feeling, for maybe a long time sometimes, that nothing really feels comfortable. When I was in my twenties or thirties, who I was at that time, I might have wanted to feel good in estrangement. I tried to feel good during my two-year estrangement. Like I had to have it be black and white in that way. But [00:23:00] the truth is, it didn't feel good. But it was for those two years until it wasn't better than being in a relationship. So I think we have to be prepared to have both sides be uncomfortable, in and out. Again, it's the same theme, Haley. Because the thing is, if we think we're going to feel good when we're finally estranged, then we could be surprised by sudden terrible feelings and then feel really sorry.
Haley Radke: I just think you're in for a rude awakening. [00:24:00]
Pam Cordano, MFT: Yeah. You're in for a rude awakening. Yeah. And sometimes, I guess, the boat has to rock a while, right? Like, Phew, I'm so glad I'm outta that mess. Finally, I'm gonna have a party. I'm gonna get a cake, and make it my anti-adoption cake, or something. And then it's like the boat rocks the other way: Oh my God, it's Tuesday, 8:00 a.m., and I'm drunk and I've called in sick. And it's like, What happened!? And then, the boat rocks again. I'm just saying it's been hard for me. That neither side feels good. Even with my parents dying and the relief I felt, it still doesn't feel good because I still went through it all. So it's hard. I like feeling good, Haley, I do. I'm just saying, but I also don't like the sneak attack of I thought I had this, I thought it was solid, and then, oh my gosh, here I am not solid again.
Haley Radke: Oh, well, now, you all know Pam loves to talk about how you feel in your body. Okay. And when I say my stomach has been churning. It's true. It's always coming back. If you don't deal with it, it's always coming back. So thank you for challenging us.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Next time you have me on the show, why don't we do a light topic? Let's do a light one next time.
Haley Radke: Well, I can give you some [00:25:00] behind-the-scenes secrets. I can do that. I have been considering how to have a show that's all jokes. Now, we don't like people making adoption jokes, but adoptees, let's tell our own jokes. I don't know. That’s been on the whiteboard for a long time because I don't know how to do that.
Pam Cordano, MFT: That's a great one. I love it.
Haley Radke: So there you go. Next time Pam will be back and telling us some jokes. So Good. Where can we connect with you online so we can learn more from you? And please also tell us about your book.
Pam Cordano, MFT: You can find me at my website, pamcordano(dot)com, and my book is called 10 Foundations for a Meaningful Life (No Matter What's Happened). I published it last January, so it's been a year and a month ago, and that's been a fun journey, for sure.
Haley Radke: Thank you for walking us through this, even though it's hard.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Thanks for having me. I've been able to see your face [00:26:00] during this conversation in the cringes and the, yeah, I know.
Haley Radke: Hey! Don't sell me out.
Pam Cordano, MFT: Poker face.
Haley Radke: It's okay. Listen, it's the whole thing. There's all the feelings. So you're listening to this and having hard feelings? I'm with you.
Gosh, I'm so thankful. So thankful for the therapists that come and show up for us and give us so many interesting things to talk about, think about. Even if they're hard, even if they're asking us to do hard things, I think it's so important. So thank you so much, Pam and the other therapists who have been on the healing series, I really appreciate it deeply. They've taught me so much and sometimes when I'm re-listening to make notes to give to my editor, I'm just like, Man, was I there? Because I feel like I'm learning this all over again. So [00:27:00] I understand why some of you download these episodes a few times to re-listen. I get it. Me too.
I just want to ask a favor of you today. If you know of an adoptee who has been experiencing some challenges in relationship with their adoptive parents, I wonder if you would share these two Healing Series episodes on estrangement with them. And again, it's not a comment on, you should break up with your parents. It's not that. It's like looking at what is healthy for us and what can we do to heal a relationship, or when do we need to know when it's not the time? So if you know someone that's been struggling with that, I think this would be really helpful to share with someone like that. So if you think of that person in your head, maybe as I was talking, and you're like, Oh my gosh, I know exactly who I should share this with! Then you can [00:28:00] teach them how to download a podcast. Not everybody knows how and you know how. So if you are able to show them where they can listen, the podcast is on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, any podcast app people like to use. You should be able to find it there searching Adoptees On. It's also on YouTube and there's no video. But sometimes just sending a link to a YouTube video is easy if someone is not used to downloading a podcast in an app. So you can find it there as well.
I'm so thankful for those of you who share the show on social media or however you do it, one-on-one, with a friend or in your adoptee support groups. I hear a lot of you talk about these episodes with your support group and kind of unpack things together, which I think is so smart, so brilliant. I love to unpack some of the things I'm trying to learn when I'm doing these interviews, so thank you for sharing in that way. And [00:29:00] you're helping build the community when you do that. So I really appreciate it.
That's it. If you want to join Patreon and support the show financially, adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. And thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.
