248 Jeff Nyhuis & Amy Geller, LCSW
/Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radkey. Today we are joined by two guests, Amy Geller, an adoptee and therapist, and her husband Jeff Nyhuis. Amy found herself repeating some self-sabotaging patterns in romantic relationships. Does that sound familiar to anyone?
And when she met Jeff, she was determined to correct course. If you were someone who's looking to have a relationship but have struggled to connect with past partners, Or you are feeling misunderstood in your current relationship. Whenever you start talking about adoption, I think this conversation will be extremely helpful for you.
We talk with Amy and Jeff about coming outta the fog together. They give us advice and how we can start these conversations with our partners and how you might end up creating another adoptee ally in the process. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on AdopteesOn.com/community, which helps support you and the show to support more adoptees around the world.
We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today or on the website, AdopteesOn.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Amy Geller and Jeff Nyhuis. Welcome.
Amy Geller: Hi.
Jeff Nyhuis: Hi. Thank you.
Haley Radke: I hope that you'll tell us which one of you is adopted before, uh, so don't get confused. I'm just kidding.
Amy Geller: It's me. Amy Geller, adoptee.
Haley Radke: Okay. So you're the lucky one, Jeff. You don't have to live the adopted life.
Jeff Nyhuis: Yes, that's what I hear.
Haley Radke: Or does he? Oh, yes. All right. Well, I'd love it with you guys would share some of your story with.
Amy Geller: We have an interesting story. I am a therapist. I've been in private practice for almost 12 years now, and I didn't mean to work with adoptees, but adoptees kept finding me. Um, so that's sort of really the beginning of my coming out of the fog story was I had all these adolescents and they all happened to be, coincidentally, adoptees.
The universe kind of knocked on my door. So I started to really examine what was happening there and why there was this almost formulaic thing of like eighth grade, ninth grade. Usually girls coming to my office and with very similar sort of presentations. And I was in a supervision group at the time and they were like, well, you're adopted and you should probably lean into that.
So in the meantime, on a side note, as a therapist, I was successful at work. I had all these friends. I came from this great family. But I was divorced. I got divorced when my kids were really small. And I was single for like 15 years. And it was, I struggled and I was like this therapist who was helping all these people in relationship.
And I had this thing where I was like, three months and I'm out. And it was just this pattern over and over and over again. And fast forward, I met Jeff five years ago and probably due to timing and everything I had done up until that point... interesting to note that I had read probably every clinical book on adoption, but I would say I was still in the fog.
I was a therapist working with adoptees and I was in the fog. When I met Jeff, I was like, I, I've had it. I, I cannot go through this again. You know, I like saw the pattern. I think I kind of recognized some of what was going wrong and, three months was coming and I was like, I gotta break up with this guy.
But I also knew that something, part of this was me. A big part of it was something that was going on with me. And at the time, kind of just randomly, I picked up Anne Heffron's book, You Don't Look Adopted. Happened to have it on like a book, you know, a book tower that we buy, books on Amazon that we intend to read one day.
And just instinctively, I picked it up one day and I sat. I had told Jeff I need a, I need a break. I need to take some space. And I was full on pushing him away. Uh, let's break up. I can't do this. And I read Anne's book and I remember just sobbing. Sobbing. Like I had never read a memoir before. And it took a memoir, like a really honest, authentic, messy version of being an adult adoptee to just blow the doors off.
And I was like, oh my God, this is what's been happening. This is it. I'm adopted. And that's sort of the beginning of our story. Like meeting Jeff was sort of like the final push for me to come out of the fog. And so what's interesting about our story is he's been by my side from day one of that.
Jeff Nyhuis: And I guess my story starts with being in the right place at the right time and knowing I had something very special. And realizing very early, as Amy had said about feeling that push, she was pushing away, but I didn't quite understand it. But her ability to start to communicate very clearly to me what she needed.
And then I had my ability to listen. I'm a high school principal now, but I was also a guidance counselor and teacher. And so. I feel, I find that's one of my strengths is to being able to listen and, um, you know, knowing what she needed. And she taught me to communicate how to express my needs to her as well.
So that was one of the things that I've learned early on. And sometimes you have to give a little space because I started to understand that loss that she felt, and she will continue to feel for her entire life, that abandonment. And that became very clear over time, you know, not right away. I didn't quite get what she was doing at first, but I also wasn't willing to give up something that was really good.
Haley Radke: Jeff, what was your perspective of adoption prior to you guys, you know, coming outta the fog sort of together?
Jeff Nyhuis: I'm, I'm almost embarrassed to say now what I used to think. And it was probably what most people think of it. It's, oh, it's a wonderful thing. People save children and it's people, most people I've learned from Amy, who adopt are unable to have their own children.
I think 82% isn't that accurate?
Amy Geller: Something like that.
Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah. So I just thought it was a great thing for the child and for the parents. But I realize over time in listening and, you know, I feel like I'm going through this doctorate with her, there's a tremendous amount of loss by the child, by the, the birth parent and um, also from the adoptive parents also are feeling loss because they usually can't have their own child.
So that is what I understand a little bit better now and, and honestly I'm seeing it in my work too. I mean, when families come in and I hear, adopted. I'm, I'm, I'm quite aware of what the child is feeling and what the parents are feeling, and it's, it's very prevalent in my line of work as well.
Haley Radke: Amy, I heard you share in another interview that you would get these referrals for these like, you know, junior high, almost senior high girls, and then it would be like the last thing, the adoptive mom just would say, oh, by the way, and they're adopted.
So I'm curious what your first conversation, do you remember having some of these first conversations together? Like reading the book or like being like, why are all these adoptees coming into my practice? And what were some of the things that you were talking about together? Because to tell anyone that, oh, adoption is complicated is one thing, but to go to the next step and be like, I think there's something wrong with me.
I gotta fix this thing. It's like you're really opening yourself up. Do you remember having those convos?
Amy Geller: Jeff and I were not, when I was starting my practice, and at the beginning we weren't together, but when we were at a crisis point in our relationship where we had hit that, it was like my body knew at three months, like find a reason, get out usually at three months.
Right? That's the point of like increased intimacy. And you know, you're not casually dating usually at that point. And I just remember thinking, after I read Anne's book, there is nothing wrong with me. This is totally normal. This is normal for somebody who's adopted. And I remember going to Jeff and saying like, all right, I think I figured something really big out here.
I read this book and I remember you bought the book. And I was like, This it, this is proof that, you know, it's not just me, because I hadn't really been working at that point with a lot of adult adoptees. I was only working with adolescent adoptees, which meant that I was working a lot also with their adoptive parents.
Um, and so the focus of my work was very different back then. But I think I couldn't help but reflect that early, one of our first dates, probably not the first date, but I had shared that I was an adoptee with Jeff. And I just remember at that point it was like, what a beautiful story. My goodness. Like, and then the shift to, oh my God, this has cost me so much.
It's had such a huge impact on my life. And all of a sudden, as those of you listening who have come out of the fog, you know that it doesn't, it can happen really all of a sudden where you see everything. It's like the colored part of the Wizard of Oz movie. You know, it's like everywhere you look, there's adoption in your life.
And it was really overwhelming. I mean, you're, you're. It's also like Bambi trying to stand up. You're like, oh my God, like these legs, do they work? You know? I mean it was just really overwhelming and to be in a new-ish relationship and to say like, I'm going on this path. Can we try to do this together?
Haley Radke: I love that you made him buy his own copy of the book. Like you weren't gonna loan it to him to..
Amy Geller: No one's getting my copy of that book. It is marked up. It is. I mean, it's truly such a pivotal thing in my life.
Haley Radke: Yeah. So Jeff, wait, you read that book? I don't know. Lots of, lots of people listening will have read Ann's book and was indeed very formative, cuz she really tells the truth the whole way through. Like it's full of very blunt, you know, things and lots of people can identify with that. When you read that book, what were your first impressions?
Jeff Nyhuis: I, I feel like I lived that book, you know, because I mean, it's one of those things where. Like I said, Amy has communicated so well, and, but it has, it's not easy and it, there's times that are still not easy.
Amy Geller: Jeff's lived the movie version of that book. Yeah. Right. Like I, I play Anne Heffron in the movie. Yeah.
Jeff Nyhuis: But I know how good we have it, and I know why, because we work and it's not just, you know, me being a good husband that, that listens and everything else. I mean, Amy is amazing and, but just like everybody else, I mean, I mean, adoptees have superpowers as well.
I mean, we talk about that all the time in terms of, you know, there's certain things that I would never get from a person who's not adopted. You know, I think there's such a, an amazing self-awareness to Amy that, not everyone has. And I'm, and I'm sure, I mean, you being adopted have, you know, the ability to, I, I guess be more vulnerable, be more aware of what hurts, what feels, you know, like what feels good, like what, what you need more than most when you really take the time to understand yourself.
And I think that's what Amy did and she passed it on to me, and, which is why I think we're so compatible.
Amy Geller: I always think about the biggest adoptee super superpower, in my opinion, is in being intuitive. Right. And I understand that as sort of a trauma response, but it, what's it like being with somebody really intuitive? Cuz I feel like many of the adult adoptees and younger ones too have that superpower of being really attuned and intuitive.
Jeff Nyhuis: It's very witchy. Um, I, I, uh, she sees things a lot before they happen and it's, it's, it happened and I think she passed it on to her daughter as well, um, because they're, they're scary when they're together.
Haley Radke: Do you wanna elaborate on that? Scary when they're together, but like, in a good way cuz they know each other kind of thing or?
Jeff Nyhuis: Well, Amy's told me a lot that the first time she felt real is when she had her first child. So I think that's, I think that's okay to say, right?
Amy Geller: Mm-hmm. Yeah, Absolut. Absolutely.
Jeff Nyhuis: Um, and, and I, it makes sense. I mean, because. Her whole life. She had this wonderful upbringing in terms of like what would look like, you know, in terms of how she was raised and, but she never had anyone that was a part of her until she had her daughter and then followed by her son. So she talks about that all the time.
Haley Radke: Okay. I got, I have two questions.
I'm gonna go quick with the first one because I think people will be wondering as I am. Amy, do you know what happened to you at three months? Is that, I know you mentioned like, oh, that's when relationships can get more in intimate, but like baby Amy, do you know where you were at three months? Like is there a connection there for you or?
Amy Geller: You know, it's interesting that you bring that up.
So I was brought home from the hospital at two days of age. I was relinquished at birth. Never held by my birth mother. I was in the hospital and my adoptive parents couldn't hold me, touch me, see me, other than through a window for two days. They brought me home and then a few months later I actually had meningitis and I had to spend a month in the hospital.
Haley Radke: Okay. So the body remembers.
Amy Geller: I'll just leave that there.
Haley Radke: Okay. Thank you. All right. I didn't know if you'd really have a marker for that, but you do. Okay. The next thing I'm really curious about, and I think people will think be asking about is: you're a therapist. You have experiences, a guidance counselor, so you're both trained at having these deeper in-depth conversations.
So for someone that's not, I think that can feel intimidating. Like, well of course they can talk about those deep things and process those deep things together cuz like they were literally trained to do that. But what about the rest of us? Can you give some advice or talk a little bit about what those conversations really look like and how you helped each other understand.
Amy Geller: First of all, being a therapist, that is my job, right? And being a guidance counselor and a principal, that is your job. But in my personal life, it still can be really messy. You know? And I think people have this idea. I was really, you know, I thought long and hard about having this conversation with you today as a therapist, right?
Because I think, 10 years, 15 years ago, therapists were supposed to be sort of blank slates and you're not supposed to know anything about them. And I actually checked in with several of my adult adoptee clients about like, Hey, what would that be like for you to hear your therapist talking about her relationship?
And I think partly, part of why I wanna be so open and real and honest about this is because I wanna show people like, Hey, even the therapist struggled with this. Even the therapist couldn't figure out the relationship stuff until she was 48 years old. Because I know that that's, I've talked to so many adoptees and so many people are like, help us with this, help us with the relationship thing.
And I feel so happy to talk about it because I finally have it and I wanna help everyone have it. You know, I want to encourage people to do what it takes to have love in their life, because I think nobody deserves love in their lives, consistent, safe love more than adoptees. So our conversations were really a lot of trial and error and finding our way and admitting that we needed to just try again tomorrow.
Haley Radke: Did you feel the need to like prove it to Jeff? Like, you know, if you have not lived what it feels like to be an adoptee and like the primal wound or however you wanna put it, this thing that we live with it, it's very hard to explain it in words, you know? So did you find like you're trying to prove it?
Or do you remember Jeff, any of those times of like, I'm trying to understand but I'm not quite getting it.
Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah, I, like I said, the first, I would say even three months, I think the first three months were, were great. And then like month four, five, and six were really hard. And it was a, it was really hard to understand why she would be pushing me away, but I was also taking it as like, I would become more, I think, clingy.
Like I would, you know, want like I'd hover and I would, because I didn't understand and I was trying to make sense of it. So, you know, after time I, I realized it was kind of our worst selves, if you will. Meaning it was like, it was her responding to who she was as an adoptee and it was me trying to fill that void, and cuz I didn't understand, so I was trying to be like overcompensate. Then I was like, not this strong person who she needed, you know?
So now I'm more confident and when I feel like she's upset or, or there's something up, you know, bothering her, I know how to deal with it better. And a lot of times it's just, it's giving her space, but also being present.
And there is a fine line because I can step away, but still be around like, Hey, do you need anything? But not be on top of like, you know, and, and feel like I need, like I, I felt like at those times I needed more. And I was trying to get more from her, but she couldn't give it because she was hurting, if that makes sense.
But now it's really like I'm very, very comfortable in our relationship and I'm able to recognize the times that she really needs me and sometimes the times she really needs me, I don't have to be there right by her side. I just have to be present. That's the best way I can describe it.
Amy Geller: I think if you're currently in a relationship with an adoptee, and I'm hoping that so many people will listen to this with their partners. So yes, I felt like I had to prove it. I think that's a very common adoptee feeling like that we have to prove our lived experience, that we have to prove that the loss that we experienced, particularly if it happened early in our lives, that it impacted us.
Last year, my first year of my doctorate, I oversighted so much because I, and I recognized my, my advisor was like, you don't need to cite like 17 authors for every sentence. And I was like, oh my God, I'm doing that adoptee thing. I'm proving it in this literature review. And so with Jeff, yes, in the beginning I had to teach him.
I remember there was this moment where you seemed to get adoption when I made it about you and your children.
Jeff Nyhuis: Mm-hmm.
Amy Geller: Right. And not everybody gets it like that. And it can feel so infuriating. Right. But I remember saying to you like, just think about it like, I lost my mother and you have two children. Think about which one, if they were out in the world without you and you never saw them again, and I feel like that was for you, a turning point.
But my advice to people trying to love an adoptee and hold on to an adoptee, because I think that can be really tricky. I think that's kind of what you were talking about, Jeff, is like that trying to hold on, which then feels suffocating to us.
We're between these two pans of glass as we try and experience love. Don't come too close. Don't go too far away, and it can be crazy making for those who are trying to hold on. But two things, I think if you're trying to prove it to your partner, it's okay to get help. So yes, that as a therapist, I was able to translate, right, in therapy speak or to try and make it clear.
But there's people who can help you with that and find somebody who can help your partner. Who can help you validate to your partner what you're experiencing. It's so worth it if you can hang on, because there are moments now where the most random thing will be a trigger for an adoptee. It can be something small, it can be a billboard on the street, you know, or it can be something in a TV show, and Jeff will just look at me and I just know that he knows now, and it is, it's, it's just so healing.
Haley Radke: I'm, I'm curious what you think of this push pull that extends from romantic to other relationships we have in our lives where a lot of us, you know, I'm thinking about the estrangement series I did. There's so many of us now estranged from our adoptive parents because of that felt ownership that they had over us and not allowing us to grow up.
And, and I'm, I'm curious if you have a sense of that, like if that is one of the impacts where it's like, Well, it's easier just to be like, okay, I'm all done. And just like cut and go. Not just in romantic relationships, cuz if you're dating, that's, I mean, I haven't, I, I'm married like really young, so I haven't dated for a long time, but I imagine it's pretty easy to be like, yeah, okay, uh, ghost or whatever, you know. But I don't know. Do you have thoughts on that? It's a little convoluted. I get it. But.
Amy Geller: I think the push pull definitely happens in a lot of relationships and adoptive families are really interesting when it comes to that. A lot of the adult adoptees that I talk to have expressed either going low contact or no contact because there is this, like all or nothing kind of, like you said, ownership or just expectation that, either as you start to come out of the fog and talk about how adoption has impacted your life, that that's somehow you are breaking some silent contract of silence. Or that as you try and set boundaries, it's like it becomes all or nothing. And so I find that a lot of people who choose estrangement or don't choose it, but have to do it for their own peace or sanity, often don't have a choice because it's either all in or all out.
That seems to be the choice that was given to them.
Haley Radke: And so to take this back to your relationship and other people's romantic relationship, I, I don't know, what would you have done if Jeff hadn't come around and like seen your side of it? It must be very hard for someone who is starting to critique adoption with their current partner and like, like having a current partner, and their partner just literally not getting it and still buying into all the happy adoption tropes that society sees. So what do you think you would've done, Amy? And then do you have thoughts on that? Like how to navigate that and still maintain a relationship or can you even?
Amy Geller: I can't imagine how that would've felt. I mean, I definitely took a big risk and I think anybody showing this very vulnerable side of them is taking a big risk. I can't help but think of, I work with many people who didn't come out of the fog until five years, 10 years, 15 years, sometimes even later into a marriage. And so Jeff and I sort of set out on this road together and we grew into it together.
Jeff was by my side through both of my reunions, through so much that we've gone through together. But I can imagine that here you are going down the road of life with your partner and then all of a sudden they come crashing out of the fog and the partner is like, okay, who are you? Or what's going on here?
And even the ones who try to be empathic and are supportive I find usually are like, when does this end? When is this fog, coming out of the fog, when is that over? Like when can we go back to our like previously scheduled programming? And I feel for couples in that situation because I know that we had this advantage where we were like sort of, we were building the foundation of our relationship in that space of me coming out of the fog.
I think it can be really devastating and be experienced as another abandonment, which we feel in our bones, in our souls, in our cellular makeup. And so then of course if, if you go to somebody and you say, Hey, I read this book. Read this book. Or hey, like, this is what's happening with me, and they can't hang, they can't deal with it.
And that happens, right? You've gotta have a lot of support around you because you're going to basically be experiencing another abandonment. But it's also an opportunity for what we call in therapy a corrective experience. I think I wouldn't just, you know, when I met Jeff, there was so much work that went into that beforehand.
You know, I had done my own therapy for a long time. I was sort of gradually getting to this place. It was not something that that happened overnight.
Haley Radke: Jeff, do you have thoughts for our partners?
Jeff Nyhuis: I do. Um, you know, when you asked that question to Amy, the first thing that came to mind is, I was very, very fortunate that I was in the right place at that time in the sense of, you know, and again, I think I credit Amy for the strong person she is and being able to really realize what was happening in her life and, and then being able to translate that to me.
But if I were not as receptive and were not able to handle what was happening, I do feel very confident, she is so strong that she would've been able to continue on and I mean, I, I think that was kind of like, what would you do if, you know, if Jeff wasn't receptive? Well, I mean, I would've missed out on what I feel is the greatest part of my life.
And now, like I said, I'm, I'm really happy we were at that place because, you know, sometimes it's timing, but it's also the people who we are and, and we both keep working. And, and something Amy said to me early on in our relationship, because, I was coming out of a very tough divorce and things like that, but. She always said, you always have to do the work.
And then she's like, I do. You know, meaning, and she's proof of it. Like she, there's not a day that she doesn't work on herself, on her life, whether it's with her clients or her doctorate now.
Working on yourself is the most important thing, and you really have to continue to do that. And it's never over because if you stop, then you know you're gonna, you know, you're gonna fall back into old habits or fall back into complacency or fall back into just where you're not bettering your yourself. And believe me, Amy's tough to keep up with. So I'm really, so I'm always trying to , you know, work on myself so that I'm there for her.
Haley Radke: Uh, do you guys have advice for how to start these conversations in your relationship? Because believe me, it is way easier to stay siloed in our online adoptee groups and chat with fellow adoptees about this stuff and kind of leave out your partner, um, or other friends as you're unpacking adoption stuff.
Because you don't know how they're gonna react. Right. And of course most of the world thinks adoption is all sunshine and roses. So how do you get from that safe place to bringing those conversations actually into real life with your, your partner?
Amy Geller: That's a good point because I think when you come out of the fog and you discover, particularly online spaces that feel so safe, and all of a sudden you're seeing, you're feeling seen and heard for the first time as your adoptee self, it feels so good.
Right? It feels so safe. And like you found your planet. And yet we live on this planet, right? We lived on, we live on this planet here of the kept, and it can be really hard, right? To come back to this planet, this space where we live and translate those conversations. You know, I think part of it is, if it's not going well, try to get somebody to help you.
Like my dream is that like we could actually work with couples because I feel like somebody who's loving an adoptee and has figured it out, has so much to share with other partners about what to do with this information as it happens.
And it is really scary cuz I can tell you that I had two breakup speeds. One was, oh my God, this person is awful, terrible. And I would just like end it and go on with my life. Everyone used to be like, there was no runway out of there. Like it was like, I mean, I would be dating somebody and then I would go out to dinner with friends and I'd be like, yeah, it's over. And they'd be like, what happened? And I'd be like, it's just over.
Or I would be so crushed and devastated and it would be like a three tissue box event. So, I get like, it's really tricky. These things are really tricky.
Haley Radke: I loved what you did about the sharing the book with him. Like that's a great, first, let's talk about this. And I think hopefully most of us are in relationships where our partner is willing to explore something if you're not, like there's other, other problems afoot. Right.
So I don't know, you mentioned earlier like listening to this podcast together with your partner might be helpful and, and starting conversations like that, but yeah, talking about a mediated conversation with a therapist that's so helpful for the really, really tricky things so you can feel heard.
Amy Geller: And that's an area where finding somebody, I think for adoptees, when they bring their partners in to work with me, they feel, you know, there's a safety in knowing that the therapist really has lived the experience and can kind of help translate that adoptee experience because it, it is so pre-verbal what so many of us experience that we don't have the words for it or the language for it.
I mean, it's so interesting to talk about adoption. I, this is the rest of my career will be spent on working with adoptees and around adoption. And I still find conversations about adoption really clumsy in terms of just basic language. We have so far to come and there's another thing that I really feel like is important to say for those adoptees out there who are still looking for love and haven't found somebody.
I know a pattern for me that I feel like I wanna share is I would date and very different kinds of people, very open-minded, like didn't have a type. And one thing I realized before I met Jeff was that I finally made this realization that narcissists love adoptees. And in recent years, there's more kind of information coming out about the presence of narcissism in adoptive families.
And so it starts, the puzzle really starts to come together, right? And again, I use the term narcissism not as a dirty word. Narcissism is a personality disorder that is resulting from trauma and loss. So it makes sense that adoptive families, if they've chosen to adopt because of loss or trauma, that there might be the presence of that.
And so I had this pattern that it didn't matter what their background was, how tall they were, how short they were, the color of their hair, I was attracting and attracted to people with narcissistic tendencies. And um, that usually was fantastic in the beginning because who doesn't love a good love- bombing?
Right? But it would usually blow up. And ending a relationship with a narcissist is really torture. So that is just from my own personal experience, something that I sort of, I got to that place. And so when I started dating Jeff, I was on the lookout, right, for the early signs of that. And it was already different.
And so I think that's one of the things that made me feel like you asked like, how do you start this with somebody? How do you start this conversation or how do you know what kind of partner would be right for you as an adoptee? And I think there's certain traits that we need to be on the lookout for.
Haley Radke: I think we need to hear more about that. What are the, what are some of the red flags? What are some of the things that we can give a pass to, which later on is really gonna hurt us?
Amy Geller: So people who have narcissistic tendencies tend to be attracted to people who seem really independent, don't like to ask for help, are seemingly on the surface pretty strong, but you know, it's really, the relationship is really like a trauma bond.
So the trauma in the narcissist, I think is attracted to the trauma in the adoptee. And we as adoptees, many of us tend to be people pleasers and we're chameleons. We have learned because our identity was sort of, reshaped and, um, modified, we are really good at being whatever people need us and want us to be.
And so when you start dating somebody and they just on the first date have decided that you are the greatest thing ever, and they are madly in love with you, and they will never leave you, that feels really exciting and great. You might even tell yourself, wow, this is just like in the movies. Like, I have found, I have such a connection to this person.
I would urge you to remember that nothing happens that fast. It's okay to have those feelings. That's exciting. But often somebody with narcissistic tendencies will also, they will ask you a lot of questions about yourself. They will invite you to share your story, to talk about yourself.
And for an adoptee, this is great. We love to tell our story to somebody who's listening because our stories are so important to us. But at the first sign of weakness, often somebody who has narcissistic tendencies will freak out and pull away. And often then this results in a cycle that is just probably very damaging to both parties.
But so I, I think for me, that was really realizing like that was my pattern and then understanding where that was coming from. I mean, I think we tend to lean into partners with what we were raised with as children, yes?
Haley Radke: Okay, fine. Just talk about me right to my face. Anyway. No, no, no. My husband's amazing and the, I think one of the reasons we've been together for so long, we got married super young. We, it feels like you grew up together right when you meet in college and like we're still together, but. I'm a totally different person now.
He didn't know he was marrying this like adoptee advocate person back then. Like we were gonna adopt. Like, I, like I've come a long way. Right? And so he's come alongside and he is very understanding and patient and is listened to, God, so much talk about adoption. Um, how is that for you, Jeff, now? Like do you picture yourself as on Adoptee Ally? You know, you're watching Amy do all this like, incredible doctoral research on adult adoptees. What's that like for you? Do you feel like a little bit of like, I don't know what, what's the word I'm looking for? Like you're, you're coming into the, even in the school system, right? Not, not all educators know, oh, adopted kids need a little bit more supports in areas. Maybe we should be taking a little, uh, look at family tree projects, cuz that can be triggering, right? Like, so you being an ally is a little bit different even in your workplace.
Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah, no, I, I definitely, as I said before, I do feel I'm getting a doctorate as well. I do feel that there's so much that I've learned just by being in her presence and listening to her. She did a like a presentation or a podcast for the, is it the Cleveland Adoption Network? And I, you know, I watched that and I actually listened to her when she did it.
And, you know, that was almost a year and a half ago now, maybe. But even then, I mean, watching her grow into this and being more comfortable and confident about it has given me a skillset. Like I do remember one time I was talking to a family, this was a few years ago, and I realized that they were talking about a child who was adopted. Their child and I wanted to say so much and because I felt like I knew, and I kind of just kept my mouth shut. And, you know, I remember telling Amy about it and she's like, you are not a professional on this. You know, and I said, I know, but I feel like I know, like I want to help them. You know.
Amy Geller: There's that beginning of like..
Jeff Nyhuis: Right.
Amy Geller: Getting it. And then remember you were like, I wanted to talk about trauma so badly. And I'm like, you cannot with parents that call you at school, open up the adoption trauma conversation. Like, I am a trained therapist and that takes like seven months before I go there with parents.
Jeff Nyhuis: Right. So, you know, what I end up doing now is I listen and I, I, I know certain things that I can say and you know, I, I also know my advice to them is really to, they need to get help and not just. For the child, but for the family. Everybody needs to, to speak and be a part of that. So again, that's been my role and I'm so, like I said, I'm so proud of her, like for, for, and I do think a lot of what she's doing is cutting edge.
I mean, in the sense of no one's really taken the time. I mean, to really dig into a lot of the things that I think Amy is digging into, and yourself and you know, just getting, I feel it's really been very beneficial in my work. But it's also, I do feel like I have a knowledge base now that allows me to gently help people and nudge them to the right, you know, to get the help they need.
Amy Geller: I love that you had talked earlier about, so there are times where I will just shut down, where I just go into baby brain, adoptee pain. And I will often say to adoptive parents that I work with, when your child goes in their room and slams the door and says, I hate you. You're not my mother and I never wanna see you again.
I will often say, well, sit outside the door because there's this, like, will you leave me? Like, leave me, but will you leave me? Don't go too far. And that is definitely something that I think plays into our life where you've learned that presence.
Jeff Nyhuis: Mm-hmm.
Amy Geller: Like, you know, when, when I get into that place to take a few steps away, either physically or emotionally, but not to leave completely.
And it really, it's made such a difference for me, and I think it's helpful for you to know, I believe that most people who love us, they wanna do it right and they wanna know how to do it right.
Jeff Nyhuis: But also knowing how to do it right, when things are good, like, you know, because I feel. There's little things that you can do. Like even just, every day, I'll check in with her at some point just to say, Hey, how's your day going? It could be a 30 second phone call, but I do think that those little things mean so much. I mean, I would say to many people, but like, I think an adoptee just like, I don't think I've ever said, but I mean, it means something for her to get a check-in, you know, just to, Hey, how's it going?
Do you know what I mean? And it's not, I wouldn't be in trouble if I didn't do it, but I just, I find myself doing it because I want to make sure that, and you, it might be as much for me too, but I just feel like that has helped. There's been times too, like early on in our relationship where I wake up and she's not in bed and I'm like, what's going on?
And I'll go and she'll be on the couch or something, and she's like, why don't you go back up to bed? I'm like, no, I want to be by you. Sometimes, like, it's that space. Like, and, and you know, and then all of a sudden within 10 minutes, she's like, let's go back to bed. Like, I think it, it's just, there's such a strange feeling that in the beginning where I didn't understand all of this, and now I feel so much more comfortable, but I also know that I can't just rest on it.
I have to continue to learn. And being present, as Amy said, is, has been if I could give any advice, that's what I would say to be. You have to know when to give space, but be present where they know you're still there.
Amy Geller: I think that speaks to connection, right? Like we work hard to keep our connection, and I think you have to be really mindful in all of your relationships, but particularly with an adoptee, not to lose that connection. Whatever that means for you and your partner. Cuz we can all go days like you've been married a really long time, right? So I'm sure there are periods of time where it's like, we're ships in the night, or you can be in the same home but you haven't really connected, like made that time.
So we really do work on that. But I'm going to keep it really real right now and share with you that Jeff has been with me through the fog and through reunion with both of my biological, um, parents. And there were periods during the, that, the height of that, which is very seldom these days where I would just need to be on the floor.
So Jeff is being kind by saying the couch, but I feel like I will help so many more people if I just say there were times when the pain was so blinding and so overwhelming and I couldn't even put it into words because it was so primal that I would need to just, and want to just be on the floor. And it was really difficult as I was coming out of the fog, navigating that with my adoptive family, with my biological families, meeting biological relatives.
And that could be really confusing to see a woman that you've just described as really strong and successful on the floor. But that is the reality of adoption. And it took us a while to figure that out. But yes, so I would sometimes wind up on the floor and Jeff would say, if you're sleeping on the floor, I'm sleeping here too.
And then he would just stay there. And I fought him at first, and then over time I stopped fighting because he kept doing it. And I don't go on the floor anymore very much. Every once in a while, sometimes if I like. I'm really stressed out, but there's just something very grounding about that, right? I mean, I understand it as like, I'll often tell when, when I speak to a client in crisis, I will get them on the floor.
I will actually tell them to lay on the floor. Um, because I just feel like it's our, our nervous systems, like adoptee pain is so much more than a feeling of sadness or loss. It's, it's a physiological, biological soul crushing feeling.
Haley Radke: You made me cry three times this interview. Okay? Get you someone that's gonna lay on the floor with you. And roll their eyes when that stupid adoption storyline comes up on a show and you're, they get it wrong.
Amy Geller: And they get it wrong. And, and I love that, that somebody who's kept can look at me and be like, oh, really? You know? But
Haley Radke: Yes.
Amy Geller: But when they get it right, you know, there's moments where they get it right too. And, and knowing the difference. I mean, my advice to anybody always all day is to be compassionate and curious. Right? That's like, that's like with those two things all day, I think anything is almost possible. I think the biggest takeaway is, this is forever. This is forever. Like I've chosen to do this for my life and my career, but not everybody does. Right.
But I am an adoptee forever. All day, every day. I recently heard them say on the Adoptees Dish podcast, I am adopted 24 7 365. And I think, get comfortable, get in it like, except that this is not a rough patch. This is our lives.
Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for sharing your relationship with us. I think it'll be really helpful for a lot of people and I'm gonna recommend, people are gonna have to scroll way back, but we did a series on relationships.
What year was that? I have to look at the year. That's so sad. Um, 2018. So way back in the feed. And I had my husband on episode 58, so he talked through what it looked like going through Reunion with me as well and like how weird that was and how weird I acted. Uh, and, and her ex-husband came on and talked about what it was like getting divorced and what their relationship was like.
So I think that might be helpful for folks too. That's 66. And then I had a show with Stephanie who talked about when two adoptees marry each other, episode 70. So, um, those all would be probably helpful for folks to listen to again with a partner and then discuss. You can talk about us if you want. You have my permission, you know, um, talk about us behind our back.
That's all good. What did you guys wanna recommend to us today?
One of the
Amy Geller: resources that I often use is, um, Grow Beyond Words is a, a practice of, of therapists, but they have a resource of therapists who are also adopted. And they have, they have therapists from across the country, and even a few that can work in all 50 states, um, virtually.
So if you're looking for an adoption competent therapist or an adoption or a therapist who is adopted, I always kind of start there when I'm looking for a referral for somebody.
Haley Radke: Excellent. Yeah, that's Dr. Wirta-Leiker's list. And what I say to people, I, you can maybe extend this too, is lots of them are already booked up, but if there's somebody in their, in your area that you're looking for or in your state, you can email them and they may have colleagues su to suggest to you.
Um, so that can help if, if your therapist of choice is them, got a waiting list.
Amy Geller: Agree and always, you can always email me AmyGellerLCSW at gmail. When adoptees reach out to me for help, I currently am not taking new people, but I love to make connections. And through my work I am educating therapists who may not be adopted themselves or who may not be considered adoption competent, but who are learning and, um, who I consult with.
So always. You know, if you're looking for help, don't just like, you know, go to the website and say, oh, you know, there's nobody taking anybody. Another thing that I'm really excited to talk about is I recently discovered an organization called A Home Within and A Home Within is a nonprofit based on the West Coast.
They provide free therapy pro bono to anybody who's experienced foster care for any amount of time. And I know that the world is full of so many adoptees wanting therapy. It's, it's a privilege, right? To be able to find a therapist, afford a therapist. Um, and while I know that this doesn't, you know, I mean, many adoptees have spent time in foster care.
For example, I myself, I was taken home from the hospital at two days of age, but technically I was in foster care for nine months because I, my adoption did not become finalized or legal until nine months later. And so I'm going to be volunteering with them as a clinician, and I'm hoping to sort of bridge their mission with my mission, which is to make therapy accessible to as many adoptees as possible.
So it's AHomeWithin.org.
Haley Radke: Wonderful. I was looking at their FAQs and it says, who's eligible for therapy? Uh, anyone who has spent at least one day in foster care at any point in their life. So, 10 outta 10. Good recommendation there, Amy. Okay. Jeff, any last thoughts?
Jeff Nyhuis: No, I appreciate you having us on here.
You know, like I said, I am, I'm very impressed. I wrote down the episodes. I want to go back and check those out, so thank you.
Haley Radke: Oh, wonderful. Amy, where can we best connect with you online?
Amy Geller: You can find me at, on Instagram at AmyGellerLCSW. I'm also on Instagram on an adoptee centric place, called The Adoption Alchemist. I am also on LinkedIn and Twitter.
Haley Radke: Awesome. We will put all those links in the show notes for folks. Thank you so much.
Amy Geller: Thank you, Haley.
Jeff Nyhuis: Thank you, Haley.
Haley Radke: Okay. If you are following along on social anywhere you may see, That I started a fundraising project to help cover the cost of transcribing the entire back catalog of the adoptees on podcast. So here are some things I have come to the realization of over the last couple of years. There are many of you who re-listened to past episodes because you find them so helpful, especially healing series episodes when you need a little coaching up from a friendly adoptee therapist as one example.
And the other thing I've heard from several adoptees is that they have a really hard time focusing when listening. And so they find that podcast just aren't for them. And then there is a third community that I just have not served well. The only way folks could quote unquote read along with a transcript of the show was to watch it on YouTube, which has automated transcripts.
And I don't know if you've ever put on the automated transcripts on YouTube, but it's like the worst version of close captioning where you know it's automated and they spell things wrong all the time. They get words wrong all the time. It's just not that accurate. And so I knew that wasn't going to be the best stop gap measure, and I've been really, really concerned with accessibility.
And a couple of years ago, um, that really came to the forefront. And so I started. Transcribing episodes and I hired someone to do that and we did, I think maybe 20 episodes and I just did not have the money to keep it up. Now at this point, we are transcribing as we go and each new episode goes up with a full transcript, which is amazing and I'm so proud of that.
But thinking about the whole back catalog and how many amazing things of wisdom our guests have shared with us, I really wanna make that accessible. And so we started also working our way backwards through the catalog to transcribe everything. And that comes at a large cost of people's time. So we do have special software.
It's just not perfect. And so it takes a human going through every episode, making sure guest names are spelled correctly, making sure the software has got it right and making those corrections. And so I want to invite you to partner with me to pay for the cost of transcribing the show. This feels like a necessary thing for us to do as a community in order to serve everyone.
So if there are adoptees that are deaf, hard of hearing, or people with a hearing loss, there are folks in our community that just process information better when they can read along, or folks that like to refer back to something they may have missed earlier in the conversation. It will benefit all of those people.
Another thing I mentioned, and this is not perfect, but it's really cool that you can copy a full transcript into translation software and then read it and a language of you're choosing. So I know we have listeners where English is not their first language and they would like to consume some of that content, and that's an option too.
So again, all of those things help bring the adoptees on message to way more folks if we're able to do this. So thank you to everyone who has been supporting the show financially and and allowed us to do the transcription process, you know, from this point forward. And at this point we are about a fifth of the way through the catalog.
And so we have, you know, 80% left to go. And that is a huge chunk of time and huge cost. So our goal is $20,000, which is wild and scary. And I've never done a huge, um, fundraiser for the show. I've done the monthly crowdfunding through Patreon, but I've never done like a big one-off. And it's very scary and it feels, I'm nervous recording this.
Maybe I don't sound nervous asking, but I am. And so if everyone who listened, you know, I'm gonna say the thing. You know, if everyone who listened just gave a couple bucks, we'd meet our goal this week. Um, but if you're listening and you have the means and if the show has meant something to you, I would love it if you would consider.
Substantial donation to this project. $20,000 is a lot of money. I do have a lot of listeners, um, but I don't have, I know that everyone who listens cannot give, and I get that. I totally get that. But if you are able, I would love it if you would go to adopteeson.com/donate. You'll be transferred over to the PayPal page and it'll show you in real time how much money we've raised so far.
When I'm recording this for you is I've just launched the campaign and we're over $400, and so maybe when you're listening to this, you can go and check and see, oh my gosh, I wonder how much, um, we're at now. Uh, that would be really cool if I'm way off. Um, anyway, please help us with this campaign. I'm gonna run up for about a month, and hopefully we'll get the full 20,000.
And I promise I'm not gonna do this every single episode, the big pitch. But y'all, please show up for your community, show up for me, adopteeson.com/donate, and let's get this back catalog transcribed. Thank you, friend. I appreciate your consideration on that. adopteeson.com/donate. Thank you for listening, and let's talk again next Friday.
