315 Alé Cardinalle, MSW
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/315
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Today's guest is Alé Cardinalle, an adoptee advocate who has taught millions of people on TikTok about the complexities of adoption. We talk about what reunion is like when it's international and everyone speaks a different language.
One of my very favorite things about Alé is how much she loves her adoptive parents. She will say loudly how she has had a privileged love filled life, and even with all of those positives, adoption is still a trauma and has [00:01:00] deeply impacted her. We also talk about pregnancy loss and how Alé experiences make her uniquely suited to talk with empathy to hopeful adoptive parents.
Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On Alé. Hi Alé.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Hi, Haley.
Haley Radke: You're TikTok famous. For those of my listeners who don't know who you are, would you mind sharing a little of your story with us?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Sure. I am an [00:02:00] international adoptee. I was adopted from Brazil and I had what I like to call a completely closed adoption, and it was closed even from myself. And I also refer to myself as a medium discovery adoptee because I wasn't quite an I was not an adult yet. So long story short, I was raised in New Jersey with three other sisters. And I have an older sister who has cerebral palsy and she is wheelchair bound. And we heard a lot about her birth story because her disability is a result of a birth injury.
And then my younger sisters are IVF babies, and in the late eighties, early nineties, they were conceived and born through IVF. And so that was, a really cool new thing. It's still very cool, but a very new, hot new thing and so we heard about their birth stories all the time. [00:03:00] And I was about 11 or 12 years old. I had some information. I had to travel with a green card, so I knew I was born in another country. I didn't have an American passport. I had a Brazilian passport and I had to travel with a green card and. Anyway, I started to put pieces of the puzzle together and I figured it out that I was adopted.
And so I approached my mom about it and she said yes, you are adopted. And I think like a lot of other adoptees, we didn't wanna hurt anybody's feelings. And my parents made me aware that this was not something that they wanted to talk about, that I was their daughter. End of story. They wanted me, they loved me, and that's it.
And so I did not feel comfortable or welcome to bring it, even use the word adopted really. And in my early adolescence, teenage years, early adulthood, I [00:04:00] had pretty severe mental health issues. I had major depressive disorder and really significant issues and I wound up in treatment and it was not until I was 22 years old in a treatment center where a therapist was like, we have to talk about adoption. We can't do this anymore. It's not working. And we had a big family therapy session. The treatment center that I was in, my family had to, my parents had to fly down there, and for the first time in my entire life, we had a candid conversation about adoption, and it was really emotional. My dad cried. He's like this masculine, Italian American guy, and it was not something that I was used to seeing him cry, and I won't say everything was perfect and we had an open dialogue [00:05:00] about adoption after that, but it cracked things wide open and was a pathway for a lot more openness to happen. That was great.
And then I wound up staying, I was in Florida then I wound up going to college in Miami. So I lived down there still, and I was home for, I don't know, something. And I needed my high school diploma to apply for, I don't know, something. I don't remember what, but I'm like looking through old papers and I find my adoption documents that I had, and I, Haley, you can't see her right now, but she's nodding it just like a canonical adoptee event where we just find something that's really sick to get to our stories. It happens all the time.
Haley Radke: If we're lucky enough. Yeah. Yeah. And you are gonna steal these items.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Exactly. So I, like I said, I was home and I stowed them away. I hid them in my little [00:06:00] carry on and I brought them back to Miami with me. And in that pile was my biological mother's name that I had never seen before. How old she was, who her lawyer was. Which again, another thing that really significant for a lot of adoptees in closed adoptions is like any little morsel of information, is like the whole world. And yeah, so I got onto Facebook and I started looking through, and it's not an uncommon name, it's like John Smith here, so I looked at maybe a hundred people with this name and I was like, one of them could be her. And then life happened and I was like, I'm gonna put this on the shelf. I can't deal with this right now. And I did admit to them that I had the paperwork and my mom was like, it's fine. I just need it back because you're gonna lose them, which is fair if you know me.
And [00:07:00] yeah. So then years and years go by and I to, to my inner child shock my parents really helped facilitate reunion logistically financially. My, my adoptive mom came with me and we went to Brazil all together where I did meet my biological mom, who I initially found actually did find her on Facebook eventually. Long story short, there too, and that is a, my story in a nutshell.
Haley Radke: I've never heard anyone say medium discovery adoptee, and I'm stuck on that. I love that. That's a good one.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Okay. And so in your reunion, I'm making an assumption here your birth mother likely spoke Portuguese, but did she also speak English?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: No.
Haley Radke: No.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Not at all. She, so I [00:08:00] was in reunion in 2016 and it was all Google translate and our messages back and forth were on Facebook Messenger and I was copying, pasting everything into Google Translate. And then when we got to Brazil, we were all speaking like into the phone and it worked out great. And I was like, by the end of the week I was like, do I speak Portugese? Yeah. But the language barrier definitely has affected reunion, I would say long term. It, it just another layer of obstacle, and in the beginning, and I can only speak to my own reunion, but I can imagine that it's like this for a lot of adoptees in the beginning, it's really for lack of a better word, that I can think of right now, like really hot and heavy.
Like you're really talking to each other all the time. You're really in communication. It's new and exciting. You're discovering [00:09:00] each other. It's dating, for the, finding your people, your person. And then for me, real life, we're on different continents, we speak different languages, we have different cultures and we're still in contact. But I guess in 2016, I wouldn't think that this is where we would be at now, but it's also okay for right now.
Haley Radke: Do you find that it's more difficult to go to deeper questions than or do you not even wonder the deeper things and you put those to the side, like things that you might wanna have conversations about in person.
It's pretty awkward to be like, okay, I am gonna just, lemme just quick, let me put this in my phone. And then, yeah. And then for translation purposes, that's, feels like those are harder.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah, it's a great question and I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before, but yeah, absolutely. [00:10:00] And it's not even just a language, it's a communication style too. It's the way that my biological family expresses themselves is very foreign to me. It's a lot more flowery and just turns of phrases that we wouldn't use and so just even if we were speaking the same language, that part is just like culturally very different and yeah, absolutely. It's really hard to ask these questions.
It's hard to ask these questions from just like the distance. Sometimes you wanna have these really hard conversations, like close to each other. And so it's interesting that you asked that because there was a huge question that I wanted to ask for years, and that was, did she ever hold me? I didn't know. And I just didn't ask and I didn't ask while I was there [00:11:00] in Brazil and I haven't been since 2016, the year of 2016, I went twice that year and then I haven't been back since. And so I just messaged her and I got the answer she did. So it was me and her alone in the hospital for three days. And I never knew that it was just me and her and she was nursing. I didn't know that. Again, like it's like those little pieces of the puzzle that are just like mind blowing, especially now as a mother who did nurse my baby in the hospital too, and like what that, and then to leave without your baby, so yes, absolutely. You're, the answer to that question is yes. It makes it a lot more difficult. And again, I don't have any other reference point to how it feels for any other adoptee. I only know my own story. I've heard a lot of other stories, but yeah, for me, the culture and the language and the lifestyle, all of that is [00:12:00] an, I don't know if obstacle is even the right word, but it's definitely a challenge in having a relationship that feels really easy and authentic to navigate on that level, like speaking the same language, having a shared culture and like shared reference points in life. We just don't have that. And it definitely affects reunion.
Haley Radke: The international barrier, the financial aspects of being able to travel the time using vacation time, your a mom to young ones.
There's so many barriers that people don't realize. Us domestics who are in reunion don't necessarily have, I mean of course people live far away too, but it's an extra layer of complexity and so if she was able to, is she able to travel to the United States from Brazil or is that tricky?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Extremely tricky for a [00:13:00] couple of reasons. One, under the current presidency, you need a visa to travel from Brazil to the United States. That's not easy to get. It used to be pretty easy if you have family, and I am very privileged if you could use that word. I do have a copy of my original birth certificate, which would help in this situation had it been not the current presidency that we're under now, it doesn't matter.
The fact that we're family is irrelevant in helping get a visa as far as I understand. But also to your point, financially and even being, for them to be able to apply for a visa the consulate is not very close.
Haley Radke: Oh, you have to go with somewhere?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Like I'm used to like filling out an internet form for something. I never even thought of that. Wow.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: No, so you have to go to the consulate, which is like hours and hours [00:14:00] away. So it's not very easy. What had been our plan that never came to fruition was for me to go down there and help them with the whole process, but it just never happened, and that was something I wanted for a long time, and I still do, but a lot of things get put on the shelf.
Haley Radke: When you're a mom to young babies. Your priorities shift pretty quickly.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Let's talk about your professional life. I know you have your master's in social work, and we've often talked here about how little education about actually adoptees, adoption, moms in crisis that social workers even get in their training.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Can you speak to why you decided to take that and what was your experience now looking back as an adoptee on that training?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah, so the reason that I got into social work was [00:15:00] I was a teacher initially, and I was working with international students as an ESL teacher, and what was being asked to me as a teacher was ridiculous and impossible and I was disgusted by the whole thing. But what I was really good at and what I did really love was building a relationship with my students. And I wanted to leave the, classroom portion behind. And anyway, that's why I decided to get my master's in social work. And it was becoming slowly apparent to me at the time that I was having issues and they were correlated with the fact that I was adopted.
And so it was, not outta the fog by any chance because I was still the problem in my mind. And that if I could fix me and what happened to me, then I would be okay. So I'm in social work school. And I am taking [00:16:00] a elective mind you child development class? No. Attachment is attachment class. And we had to pick a topic pertaining to attachment and write a paper about it.
And I, because this is so stupid now, but I was all in at the time. My paper was if you adopt a child and practice attachment parenting, the attachment parenting style, they won't have adoption trauma. That was.
Haley Radke: Oh. Are you sending out copies of that?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: I sent them to hell and oh my God, which like. By the way, attachment parenting as a style to like the, it's been busted by itself with children that are not adopted. So anyway, that's besides the point.
Haley Radke: You know what? [00:17:00] Just bless our past hearts. Like just, that's all.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: She was so sweet. So sweet.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Anyway, I pitched this, my teacher, I didn't know that is an adoptive parent. She pulls me aside, she gives me a pile of books. She goes, I want you to have these. You can keep them go slow. Can you guess what book is on the top?
Haley Radke: Did she know? Did you know? Did she know you were adopted?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: After I pitched my paper? Yeah.
Haley Radke: Okay. Okay.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: But not before.
Haley Radke: I'm gonna imagine it's The Primal Wound.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. Yep. So she gave me The Primal Wound.
Haley Radke: At least she said go slow.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. Yeah. She gave me The Primal Wound. I did not, in fact go slow. I had a emotionally violent reaction. I was a puddle [00:18:00] and I had, I really didn't. It was a summer course. The rest of the summer. I struggled the whole rest of that summer and I really took it out on my mom, my adoptive mom, and I really credit her and honestly, I think this is the one thing that allows us to have the amazing relationship that we have today. I was so hurt, traumatized, re-traumatized by what I was reading. I had a full blown tantrum. I still am taken aback, by my own behavior, I was awful to her. And basically like, how could you do this? How did you not know? And it was 1988 and why didn't you know this? Why didn't you read this book? And the way that she responded to [00:19:00] me was so compassionate and soft and mothering that it really, as awful as I felt about my behavior, I think that I, it had to go down that way for us to be where we are today, if that story made sense. But yeah I had a really, I guess I was really triggered is a oversimplification of what happened there.
Haley Radke: And so how old were you when this happened? Reading The Primal Wound.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Okay. So I'm in grad school. I was probably like 28, 29.
Haley Radke: And so earlier you had talked about being in residential treatment for some mental health issues. I don't know how much you're comfortable sharing about that, we talk about how adoptees are overrepresented in those kinds of environments. And I know you've shared about this a little bit in, in some other conversations that people can listen to, a couple [00:20:00] other interviews you've done. But looking back with the, this new knowledge of like primal wound things like were you able to have compassion for yourself for those struggles that you had as a teenager and in your young twenties?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: How did that reframe things for you?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: I have wonderful parents. I have wonderful sisters. They're my best friends. We're very close. I grew up very privileged. Anything I could ever want or need or ask for, dream of, I led a pretty privileged life and I struggled so much. I struggled so much from so young.
I started therapy when I was eight years old, and the whole time I was really aware that I was having a different experience than the people around me. And sometimes [00:21:00] I'd see awful things going on in the world that, were not even possible in my own world. And I was like, how can you be so unhappy?
Why is everything so hard for you? What is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? And when I had this frame of reference that other adoptees were struggling, like I was struggling, that maternal separation is trauma and that what happened to me affected me, affected my development, this layer of shame and blame that I was putting on myself was pretty instantly lifted.
And I was able to say nothing was ever wrong with you. Something happened to you and the way that you're reacting may and reacted made all the sense in the [00:22:00] world.
Haley Radke: What did you do once you finished The Primal Wound?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: I never finished The Primal Wound.
Haley Radke: Wait, you stopped at some point you are like, I get it.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. I think, honestly, it's been so long, but there was a point where I was just like, I can't, the tone of the book, not the tone, but I guess the subject matter I don't know, something shifts and I was like, all right, this is, I gotta go. It was terrible. Okay. So it was really validating, but I was also really angry, which explains how I treated my mom. But how was this allowed to happen? And not only how was this allowed to happen, how was all this allowed to happen? And I'm in therapy at eight years old, I'm in second grade and in a therapist and we're not talking about the fact that I'm adopted. [00:23:00] Which, listen, I had every right to be angry. I might have been, it might've been a little misplaced and, yeah. Yeah. But yes, I did never finish it and I still have never finished it. And honestly, I don't, I know that's a controversial book still.
Haley Radke: Yeah. We talked about it, my God, we must have mentioned it every single episode for the first few seasons because it was of this show because like it was the thing that we had access to and we knew, and now there's so many other things.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: That we talk about and that are adoptee authored and adoptee, critical adoption scholars and so much more work to pull from
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: That I know about.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. Yeah. It's not something that I recommend. Not that I don't recommend it, but if I'm making a recommendation, it wouldn't be that.
Haley Radke: It's [00:24:00] not the, it's not my top 10 anymore.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Right.
Haley Radke: Okay. So we've got the great reshifting of Alé's mind. And you're still in your master's program.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Looking back, what was the adoption stuff you learned about? That professor sounds like a unicorn in the fact that she even had that book.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah, she was, and I have to give her a lot of credit 'cause I don't think I would be in, who knows what would've happened but I am happy that I met her and that she reacted to me the way that she did. It was I'm gonna hold your hand while I tell you this. Yeah. Nothing, Haley. Nothing. Nothing. Which is wild. Nearly nothing. Which is very interesting because we know how many social workers will go on to work with children and work with children in child welfare.
And many, and some of my classmates did go on to [00:25:00] work in adoption, like for adoption agencies. You know what's interesting, the, so I'm in New Jersey. I did my, I went to NYU, but I did my second year internship at Rutgers Counseling Center. It was a very prestigious internship because that counseling center, their model was, copied through all the big 10 schools where we're looking at them to see how they were running their counseling center.
And it was amazing and I learned so much. And that was so the social work trainees and the PsyD trainees would have like professional developments together. We had one, one session on adoption, and that was the only thing that spoke directly to adoption and the adoption industry and the adoptee experience. And it wasn't through my school, it was through an internship that [00:26:00] I had, and it was an hour.
Haley Radke: Wow. Wow.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Nothing. And social work continues to perpetuate the harm that it has perpetuated within adoption and child welfare as it always has. I graduated in 2019, so since, at least since then, I think it's possible things are starting to shift. You'll have to ask somebody that's newer out of school. But yeah, it was abysmal and awful in that regard.
Haley Radke: Aside from schooling then, what were some things that you like took in to learn more about adoptee stuff?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Okay. So I read the Primal read most of The Primal Wound and I found adoptee Twitter at that time.
Haley Radke: That was my [00:27:00] in too.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. Yeah. So it was around like 20, probably around 2018 I was Aléthatgirl on Twitter, I think that was my name. And yeah. And I was meeting lots of adoptees that were having similar experience and we were on this little community, which like, now I can't even remember really how Twitter worked, but it was a part of my life and a connection with other people that I didn't have before.
And you and your show. I was in grad school, I was still teaching, I had an internship. They were all over, like different parts of different states. And I was in the car constantly. I listened, I feel like I finished all the podcast. And so I was like eating your show up. And it was something that I was, and still do recommend [00:28:00] to people who were like where can I learn more about this?
And it was you and I don't know if you, I haven't heard the name in years, but there was an adoptee name Blake.
Haley Radke: Oh.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: And they had a YouTube show called Not Your Orphan. Yeah. And I learned so much on Blake's show. I don't know what ever happened to Blake, but
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: It was you, it was Twitter and it was Blake.
Haley Radke: Wow.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: And yeah, and then I watched a lot of documentaries too. There, there was a quite a few Korean adoptees that made documentaries. I wish I could remember the name. We can maybe tag it in the show notes. A lot of them are, if you have the library, the what, whatever the app that you get with your library card, a lot of them are on there. But there's a Korean adoptee who has a production company and she made two really great [00:29:00] documentaries. And then we're here years and years later. But that's where it all began.
Haley Radke: Wow, that's so amazing. So when I was researching you for our interview, I went back literally to the beginning of your TikTok, which dang girl, that's a long scroll.
Just saying. And and I was like, wait, she mentioned my show at some point.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: In the feed. So I didn't know you listened when I invited you on, so that's pretty cool. So let's go to TikTok. And you started, you weren't starting TikTok as an adoptee, but all of a sudden your feed switches and you're this badass adoptee advocate. So we gotta talk about all that. So what got you on TikTok?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: What got anyone on TikTok was the pandemic and lockdown.
Haley Radke: Oh.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Okay. What happened was, I was, after I graduated, my like niche moved away from children [00:30:00] because that's what life does. One door opens another, and my area where I was honing in on was anxiety and I, the plan was to go and graduate and become a therapist, but I graduated and then we were in the pandemic and it was impossible to get a job. And so I was, anyway, long story short, I had a little online coaching business where I helped people basically learn relaxation techniques and self-compassion techniques. And so I went to TikTok to advertise that business basically. And I was getting away from the adoption stuff it's a lot. I don't have to tell you, you've also made a career about it. It's not easy to talk about it and be immersed in it all the time. And when I was on Twitter, I was still very much in the thick of discovering what this meant for me and still really moving through all the parts. So basically it was too much. I didn't wanna do it anymore, [00:31:00] and I stepped away. Anyway, I'm on TikTok, minding my own business, and there's an adoptive parent. It was a kinship adoption, I'll never forget it. And this adoptive parent is oversharing and they seem like such a nice, person that probably has the same politics like I do.
And I'm like if I just tell them, they're gonna course correct so I send these, this guy I think is gonna be a super nice guy, and I'm like, hey, I'm adopted and I just wanna let you know that the information that you're talking about, I think the 6-year-old in your life, that's not really, that's their information to share when they want to.
And this kinship adoptive parent says to me they told me that they wanted to, they consented to sharing this information, and they blocked me.
Haley Radke: Oh my.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: And I was talking about this, my sweet little heart. I was [00:32:00] like, what? How did this, this doesn't make any sense to me, and so I made a video. I never said who I was talking about it, but I made, it was the video where I plugged your show. I was like, listen, this is not what I do here. It's not what I'm here to do, but please don't overshare your adoptees information. It's very triggering and it's not your information to share. I was a little bit emotional. I sat in front of the camera and boom. It's the first video I start to get that anyone sees. And there was a few adoptees that there was at that time on TikTok only a, like a count of maybe two hands, the amount of people that were doing adoption content. And they were like fluent and they were like, oh they were like, thank you for saying what you're saying.
And they, I don't know, they just scooped me up. And then I started talking about it more and I got, sucked back into adoption world and I [00:33:00] was in a different place than I had been, the first time that I entered, I think my purpose really found me. And the more I talked, the more people were plenty were not listening and not picking up what I was putting down, but a lot of people, but lots of people were. And so it has been a wild ride. And when I started on TikTok, I was single. I was living at my parents' house and now I'm married, I have a house. It's two kids later. It's been about five or six years.
Haley Radke: Wow.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: That's incredible. I, you've made so much content and you have a patience and grace for people that I have a hard time summoning up if we're being, candid with each other, which I'm sure draws people to you. One of the parts of your story was a [00:34:00] ectopic pregnancy loss, struggling with that. And you share very openly about miscarriage and of course there's this intersectionality with people who are dealing with infertility and trying to conceive. And so just this compassionate way you speak to people about that I found very powerful. Do you have any stories about connecting with people that perhaps were pursuing adoption because of infertility and you sharing those experiences, like how that sort of intersected?
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Sure. Wow. This is such a cool question 'cause it has a really cool answer. So I do have a lot of compassion because I know what it feels like to wanna be a parent more than anything in the world. For that to, I could cry just thinking about it, but. For wanting your baby, for [00:35:00] wanting, to motherhood more than anything in the world, to feel like that is your purpose and to have to even grapple with the thought that might not become reality.
It is something that I do have the utmost compassion for. And like you said, I did have an ectopic pregnancy and I wrote about, I don't, I have one, one thing that I've written on substack and it's about my ectopic and I know what it's like to leave a hospital with no baby, right? I had the surgery for my ectopic in the labor and delivery unit and I recovered in the mother baby unit and I was wheeled outta the hospital with, I wouldn't have had a baby anyway it was very early on, but I just I wanted my baby so badly and we stru really struggled. We [00:36:00] tried for six months, but the first cycle we tried, I was like sobbing when we didn't get pregnant, like the first month. It was hard. It was hard. And it was like the sixth time, the sixth cycle. And I did get pregnant and it was a bi corneal ectopic, which means the embryo was in between my fallopian tube and my uterus.
And so the surgery was, they had to remove the fallopian tube and part of my uterus. And they told me it wouldn't affect my fertility. And I was like you're lying to me. How could it not? Which they weren't lying. It didn't. And I have two beautiful boys that I was able to conceive the old fashioned way, but I do have a lot of, I do have a lot of compassion and listen, I work in mental health. I am a social worker, but I also think, I don't have to tell you that this is a topic that brings up a lot of emotions that people are very dug into their [00:37:00] feeling. And I don't think that we make change or change hearts without building a rapport in a relationship.
And so I do get snarky, I do get frustrated, but I try to choose my words and how I deliver my message with a lot of intention in the way that people can like, know and trust me and maybe be open to something that they haven't heard before. I definitely roll my eyes and I definitely get annoyed and, I've gotten emotional, but I really try to build relationships and be nice to people who may not even be very nice to me.
Haley Radke: And do you have someone that, that you.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Oh yes. Wait, I forgot the best part. Okay. So there was this woman, this cute lady, and she was doing a series on TikTok, doing TikTok dances until she can afford adoption or [00:38:00] IVF. And so I listen, by this time I knew that sliding into dms, I was, people weren't gonna be like, oh my gosh, thank you for telling me this. I am completely forever changed.
Haley Radke: Thank you for your unsolicited input correcting me.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: But this woman, she was, and because I was nice to her, there was, a lot of other people in this space, and I'm not trying to police anyone's tone, but sometimes you do catch more flies with honey. And I was really nice to her. And I shared with her, I also wanted to be pregnant more than anything in the world. And if I could've danced to make that happen I absolutely would have I guess I did dance to make that happen, but it was a different kind of dance.
And I recommended her some books. And she and she bought them, and I recommended probably your [00:39:00] podcast, I can't remember, but I was recommending it to everyone and she made a video, which she thanked me, and she said she wasn't gonna do that anymore. And then she disappeared from TikTok, Haley, and she just came back and she's pregnant.
Haley Radke: Wow.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Like weeks ago. And that's why I'm like, how did she even know to ask me this? But yeah she's pregnant, so she, I guess she danced her way to IVF yeah. Yeah. Isn't, that a cool story.
Haley Radke: That's amazing. That's totally cool.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: So I think we have time before we do recommended resources. I'm curious because I've seen you talk about, you think there is a shift in people listening to adoptees, especially on TikTok. I agree. I've seen a lot of comments on your videos and some other adoptee TikTok videos about. People like actually listening. What a concept. What are some things that [00:40:00] you find when you share and TikTok is mostly short form content still. That's what gets traction there.
While we're recording this that's what gets traction is the short things. What are some things that you're sharing that you're finding people are really listening to and, I do, I'm sure I have people that listen that are active on socials sharing adoptee things, adoptee advocates.
But also we have people here who just wanna be able to explain things to their friends and family, so their friends and family stop saying stupid bleep to them. Oh my gosh, I can't, I don't swear on this show. Whoops. You can bleep me for the first time.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: I think a big thing is to talk about this as a women's issue, as a reproductive justice issue. And I think a big thing that makes people go, huh, is when we talk about other countries [00:41:00] that have more social, I don't even know if socialists is the right word, but where the governments care about the people and there's things like, socialized healthcare, universal healthcare, maternity and paternity leave, these cuckoo concepts, affordable childcare, that there's maybe less than a hundred adoptions in those countries domestic adoptions in those countries a year.
And that if we had access to those things, that women would unlikely relinquish their children. And that it is an act of choicelessness or an act that comes out of choicelessness rather than empowered choice. I think that really speaks to people and it's honestly not an easy question to answer because something that I get almost on every video is I hear what you're saying, but what's the alternative?
And I actually have that [00:42:00] answer like pre-populated, it's just pre-written, which helps immensely. If there's any TikToker listening or anyone who works on social media, that gets a question. I really put it in your keyboard shortcuts. It will save you so much emotional labor.
And there really is no good answer to that. It's something that I get almost every single day. It's I hear what you're saying, but what's the alternative? I'm trying to think what else that people really resonate with. Anytime I talk about a celebrity and we just talked about Jennifer Aniston had said on the Armchair Expert podcast that she wouldn't want to adopt because she wanted a baby with her own DNA and that video did really well.
And it's almost like people understood that adoption isn't a cure for infertility. So it was like a good springboard to have that conversation. And I think what I've been leaning into now is how adoption really is [00:43:00] interwoven with, right wing conservative ideology. And when we think about making adoption, we think about it from, still, from an adoptive parent's perspective, right?
How do we make it easier for a diverse, couples to adopt or single people, or gay couples, or whatever their identity might be. But the question is how can we prevent adoptions? How do we reframe adoption? Because we have it so normalized that adoption in this country is a service for adults, I've been saying like it's a service to source newborns, and that's not normal. That's not a thing in other places. And I had a little series called Alé Ruins Adoption, and I'm like doing a rebirth of that right now, that it's like, adoption is bad. Is that too woke? That's my new one. Because the new snarky comment I get, it's oh, you're that adoption is bad [00:44:00] now. That's too woke for me. Or you're like you're the friend that's too woke. I don't know, there's like a Rolodex of viral comments that people make and that's a new one.
So now my new thing is adoption is bad is that too woke, which has been a pretty good hook so far. And I think what's hard about TikTok is like, because of the short form content format and people are just scrolling and a lot of times they've never seen you before. So it's like adoption 101, like over and over and over and over again.
But that's okay. I think repetition is really important actually. And I have gotten opportunities like this one to talk more in depth and take it to, and sometimes I even say you guys, this is a 500 level class. If you're not ready for that, like you can scroll. But yeah, and I also try to understand too because think about where I was as an adopted person, hashtag like grateful hashtag adoption rocks not too long ago.
So I understand [00:45:00] completely how people got where they are, and I invite them to expand their minds. And I and I think when you speak to people with respect, this is a intense conversation to have and people have big feelings about it. And, people have adoptees these in their life that they love very much and they wouldn't have them in their life if it wasn't for adoption.
And I think people get defensive about that, and I try to be really understanding. But what I like to tell people is this is what I do. I am a TikToker who speaks to truth to the adoption bleep, and you don't curse on your show. But I bleep talk about adoption all day and my mom listened, and if she could sit with it, how can you dear listener? And it's funny because I had a opportunity to be on another podcast that just dropped last week and my aunt text me and she was [00:46:00] like. I'm so proud of you and it's so fascinating to hear this part of you. In my family, we're allowed to talk about the fact that I'm adopted now, but it doesn't come up like all that much.
So it's weird, right? It's it's like compartmentalized. So what I like to say to people is, even if you're uncomfortable with what I'm saying, for you to consider it, it's only in service of the adoptee in your life if you can have this perspective to even open up the conversation to say, hey, if you ever feel any of this, or you have complicated feelings about your adoption, like I'm a safe person to bring that to, right?
Because that's not the case for a lot of adoptees. So that's one thing about my particular family dynamic that I think people could really benefit modeling themselves after. It's not always easy, it's not always comfortable, but if you create a space for the adoptee in your life to [00:47:00] express anything that, that they may feel about adoption and you're not gonna push back and you're gonna sit with that, that can, like I said, only be in service of your relationship with that adoptee.
And what I also like to take from my story and let people know is that even when you have really nice parents who could provide you with any resource under the sun, including send you to inpatient treatment, when you're really struggling, it doesn't save you from adoption, trauma. Having nice parents who love you doesn't save you from adoption trauma, adoptees still struggle because something happened to us. I heard another TikToker say, adoption isn't natural. And it really jarred me actually, believe it or not, but I was like, whoa. And I had to sit with it. And it's even uncomfortable for me to hear that actually. But it's not even in the best of [00:48:00] circumstances where everyone's really nice and respects each other, or you have a really, open adoption.
The more that I'm in community with people, I'm realizing that there's no best practice here. There's no way to do this right. Because it is not the natural order of things. And so we can do our best to reduce harm and be trauma informed. But what, and I'm sure you would agree, what we would like to see for this world is less people being adopted and more families being preserved.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: And so that's, the first prong of what I do is if we could keep families together. And we have, the TikTok community has absolutely helped keep families together. But I also want to be a resource for adoptive families too, to be of service for the adoptee in [00:49:00] their life.
And I think because of my own experience and my own family dynamics and my professional background I'm able to hold the space for adoptive parents who are willing to have uncomfortable conversations.
Haley Radke: I absolutely wanna recommend your TikTok. I've learned a lot from you of how you explain things in a really concise way, and you were giving some examples of things just now for us about, what actually sways people.
But I've seen you talk on many different topics about adoption that I've seen in the comments. People are like, oh, I never thought about that. And it might not be that one video that changes their mind, but you're planting all the seeds and you can tell that these folks are gonna be on our team fairly soon.
So I really appreciate that. So I hope that we, especially if you're trying to communicate some of these same things that we've been talking about on this show for a long time, you can learn [00:50:00] from Alé on, on her TikToks and you can share those with your friends too. And you're just mentioning this, but let's talk about a little bit more. You work with adoptive parents, like if they need coaching and how to support their adoptees, and like you do that.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Something that I offer is sessions that I like consulting sessions with adoptive parents. Whether you wanna work with me through, something big for several sessions, or there's something specific that you just need an adoptee perspective on whether the adoptee in your life is still a child and you want support in being an adoption competent, which I'm not sure if we like that word, but if you want to increase your adoption competency and build a home that is safe again for your child to express anything, and that [00:51:00] you're able to sit and be present in that moment, I could help you take care of your feelings after the fact, but I wanna help you build a home and a family culture where the adoptee your life feels free and honest and encouraged to express anything and everything. And I wanna help you navigate that. And also if the adoptee in your life is an adult, I'm still here to support you because in our different phases of life, different things are coming up and that is a service that I am happy to provide.
And it sometimes surprises some people when they follow my TikTok. And I speak out against the adoption industry and I still understand that people are adopted and came to adoption in lots of different ways. And no matter where you are in your journey of unpacking some of this stuff, that we were all indoctrinated [00:52:00] to think about adoption. I'm here to support you through that.
Haley Radke: As I said in my email to you, I'm so glad you're doing that 'cause I'm not gonna do it. And I'm glad there's people like you with the patience and I'm sure you'll be nice about it, which I just can't be.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Okay we, we also need to hear what you wanna recommend to us.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yes. Okay. So I sent this into your email too because I hope everyone knows about it. And if you don't, I'm happy to break the news to you. We were talking about updated resources right before we really only had The Primal Wound, but now we have a book called Relinquished, written by Dr. Gretchen Sisson, who is a sociologist who has a background in reproductive issues.
And in her book Relinquished, she follows birth moms for sometimes over 10 years. And while [00:53:00] she's sharing their stories in her book Relinquished, she's sharing lots and lots of research and information gathered from surveys and learning from birth moms about their experiences with adoption, the adoption industry, how they felt about adoption before, during and after the process. And it has blown my advocacy wide open and I have a way to speak about things that I didn't have a way to speak about them before. And also, as someone who is not a first parent and has never relinquished, I have, it has been a powerful resource, concise right there.
And I don't think that any reasonable person can read that book and not have [00:54:00] a perspective shift. So if you're looking for a new way to frame adoption or talk about it, you can definitely check me out as highly recommended. But I also really recommend Relinquished and anyone doing this type of work or talking about this subject, I feel like it is required reading.
We don't have anything quite like it. It's reminds me a bit of The Girls Who Went Away about the baby scoop era, but really brought into right now, modern time, our time. It's happening right now and yeah, I can't recommend it enough. And it's also on audio book, if that is your, if that is your thing, just, get it in your brain any way you can.
Haley Radke: I, we love Gretchen's book. We did a book club with her and yeah, totally agree. I love that I can go to it and [00:55:00] find the proof for the stat that we reference like 45 waiting couples for every,
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: yeah.
Haley Radke: Infant.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: I have So many pictures like of the book in my camera roll. Yeah.
Haley Radke: That's right. Yes.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Yeah.
Haley Radke: She's a gem and I appreciate her so much. Okay, Alé, where can folks follow you on TikTok and your website? Give us your details there.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: You can find me on TikTok @ wildheartcollective_ and my website where you can learn more about what I offer and links to other interviews and whatnot that I've done you can find on wildheartcollective.us.
Haley Radke: Perfect. Thank you so much for sharing with us. I loved getting to know you better today.
Alé Cardinalle, MSW: Thank you. I really appreciate, this is really a full circle moment for me and I like I've been telling, my family, I'm like, I have a big podcast tonight. [00:56:00] I have a big one and so I'm really like, I'm really souped that I got to do this and talk to you and I really can't believe after, running in these circles for all this time.
This is the really the first time we've gotten to sit down and talk to each other, but I am sure. We're gonna keep running into each other and I hope on purpose.
Haley Radke: Yes, agreed.
I feel like over the last few years I've interviewed a number of people who I had no idea, had any kind of connection to Adoptees On as listeners. And so it makes me so thrilled that this show could have an impact in people's lives who then decide to go on and become public adoptee advocates.
When I think about the ripples fan, [00:57:00] that's pretty exciting. And what an encouragement to hear from Alé that she sees people's minds being changed, and I do too. And there's so much work left to do. Believe me, if I ever stick my head out of my little adoptee, land bubble people be loving adoption and they still are lining up to buy those new babies.
So we have a lot of work to do. I am working on my new podcast, which will hopefully combat this rainbows and sunshine narrative, and we really need your support. If you go to adopteesffp.org, you can follow along there to keep up to date with what I'm working on the new show that is [00:58:00] called On Adoption and we would love to keep you in the loop and we will be keeping you updated throughout this year as I'm continue to work on that project.
Thank you so much to Alé the other TikTok adoptee advocates, and the other folks doing great work out there to spread awareness about the impacts adoption has had specifically on us as adopted people. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again very soon.
