Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/26
Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season Two, episode 6: Mike, I'm your host, Haley Radke.
Today, I get to welcome Mike McDonald to the show. Mike tells us about his experiences as a Korean adoptee, his work with the Teen Adoptee Mentorship Program, and why he did DNA testing before he got married.
We wrap up with some recommended podcasts for you and, as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website (adopteeson.com). Let's listen in.
I'm pleased to welcome Mike McDonald to Adoptees On. Thanks for agreeing to share with us, Mike.
Mike McDonald: Thank you for having me on. I'm very excited to be here.
Haley Radke: This is a double pleasure, because you are a fellow podcaster and I listened to some of your shows, so it's kind of fun to chat with you. And I get to see your face. Our listeners don't, but this is fun!
Mike McDonald: Yes, thank you. And you as well. I also enjoy your podcast, so this is exciting for me too. And it's, yeah, it's weird, because yeah—usually it's a disembodied voice. I'm sure you're feeling the same way about seeing my face.
Haley Radke: Yes, you have your photo on your cover art, though, so at least I knew what you looked like.
Mike McDonald: That's true.
Haley Radke: And I think some people, when they see my picture for the first time, they think, Oh, that's not what I pictured in my head.
Mike McDonald: But I follow you on Twitter… Your Twitter picture is you!
Haley Radke: It is, it's…true story. Okay. Well that's enough about us. I just wanna hear your story. Can you tell us a little bit about your adoption journey, where you were born and all that?
Mike McDonald: Sure. So I am a Korean adoptee, which usually means I'm born in Korea. I was born in Masan, Korea, which is very, very south. I've never been there, but it's been told to me that it's a fairly large city in Korea.
And I was adopted through Holt International Children's Services, which is (I believe) the oldest international children's adoption organization in the world. It was kind of the first one started by (I'm gonna forget his name now)…Harry and Bertha Holt. After the Korean War, they saw a documentary about all these Korean War orphans, and they thought they had something they had to do something about it, basically.
So they traveled to Korea, and they started this organization. They, themselves, adopted a bunch of Korean children, and it all kind of stemmed from there. So I was adopted in 1985, which was the peak year for Korean adoptions, for some reason? I'm not sure why.
But in 1985, the most Korean adoptions out of that country happened, and I was one of the first ones to be adopted in that year (because I was born in January and then I was adopted in April). Actually, very recently was my Airplane Day (when I actually immigrated to the United States and landed in JFK).
Haley Radke: Airplane Day? Instead of Gotcha Day?
Mike McDonald: Yes, that's what some people call it. Some people say Gotcha Day.
Haley Radke: Okay, I haven't heard that before.
Mike McDonald: We did the Airplane Day for a long time before Gotcha Day was popularized, I guess? Because most of the international adoptees have arrived by plane.
Haley Radke: Right, right.
Mike McDonald: I was adopted by the McDonald family to New Jersey, so they picked me up at JFK International Airport in New York, brought me back to New Jersey (where I grew up in Union, New Jersey for a few years). So I was around four or five, and then we moved to Hillsborough, which is a very—at the time, it was very rural.
I think it was like slowly becoming a suburb, about 40 miles outside of New York City in central Jersey. But at the time, they had bought a house in a part of Hillsborough that used to be a sheep farm. (And apparently sheep farming was very popular in the area, as was dairy farming, until it became very suburbanized).
Weirdly, Hillsborough, New Jersey was a large landmass as far as area and township. I think it was like 52 square miles, which was really big (for some reason). So it was, it had a lot of people. My high school was probably like 400 kids per class…so maybe 1600 kids total in the high school.
So, it was pretty big and it was surprisingly diverse by the time we got to middle school and high school. There were like five different elementary schools that kinda merged into one middle school and one high school. And it was like… We, our family (like me and my sister), we're both Korean adoptees. But we were not the only Korean adoptees in town.
So it was interesting for us, because it's not something— Aside from the time of year, once a year, where we went to Holt Camp together, we never talked about adoption with each other and we really still don't. And we never really talked about it with the other Korean adoptees in town, either.
There were two other ones that I know of (I think my sister said there was another one that she knew of, but I don't recall). But they were also like (one of them is still), I consider one of my best friends, but it's something we never talk about, to this day.
Haley Radke: You never talk about adoption with him.
Mike McDonald: With her.
Haley Radke: Oh, with her, sorry.
Mike McDonald: Yeah, they're sisters. Yeah, Shannon and Meghan. Actually so, Meghan, I've had on my show (on The Rambler). And so she is more interested in talking about it than Shannon, who's actually—she's my age and she's one of my best friends. So we almost neer talk about…
Haley Radke: Okay. So, Shannon's the friend, but Meghan is the one—like she's a friend, too. But she's the one you talked to?
Mike McDonald: The younger sister. Yeah. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Interesting. Okay, so let me stop you there. What is Holt Camp? What is that?
Mike McDonald: So Holt Camp when… It is a camp, I don’t know—I'm pretty sure it still exists. I'm almost positive. But Holt Camp used to be (when I first started going), a Korean heritage camp for Korean adoptees who were adopted through Holt International.
Since then, I believe it has expanded. Actually it expanded while I was there to include all other international adoptees that were adopted through Holt. And then I think they even expanded past Holt and just any international adoptees, but it's still… When I left, it was still very mainly Korean-focused, because I think that's what they knew and that's what the program was built around.
And so it was very familiar. And so they still did Taekwondo, and fan dancing, and how to make kimchi and bulgogi, and Korean language classes. Even though there were, like Russian adoptees, and Guatemalan adoptees, and Colombian adoptees, and Vietnamese adoptees there, it was… I think they just didn't, the people who were in charge of programming, didn't know any better, so that's just what they kept in place.
I don't know if it's changed since then. I'm sure it has. I don't even think they have it in New Jersey anymore. I think it's since moved to Pennsylvania on the East Coast? But they also had a location for an Oregon camp and a Nebraska camp by the time I left. And I went there from the ages of 9 to 15, and then I was a camp counselor there when I was 18.
So it's like one week every summer and it's a week (each camp), and it's like a sleepaway camp. So your parents will drop you off on Sunday and pick you up the following Saturday. And it was, like, pretty intense.
Haley Radke: So it's like, totally immersed in Korean culture.
Mike McDonald: Mmm, I mean, not really. There were plenty of other activities...
Haley Radke: Okay. So it's like summer camp with a sprinkling of like…
Mike McDonald: With a sprinkling of Korean stuff. And adoption stuff.
Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. And so what kind of adopt… sorry, what kind of adoption stuff?
Mike McDonald: Oh boy. So I think it changes over the course of time, right? So when you're a kid, I think more of the Korean stuff is sprinkled in there, because it's very light, like cooking, or fan dancing, or Taekwondo (like that kind of stuff).
Or learning how to count to ten in Korean, like it's very light. But then by the time you're a teenager, I think that's when they start talking about adoption, and how you're feeling, and how it's affected your life. And you know, it's a good safe space, because everybody's adopted there (including the camp counselors).
I think the only non-adoptee at the time, there was the camp nurse who was an adoptive mother to one of the counselors (one of my counselors, specifically). But it was like one week that we could talk about this stuff before we went back to, you know, quote “the real world.” And we basically, because there weren't any mentorship programs that were like throughout the year, or perpetual that we went to.
So it was like one time a year we get that out of our system, and then maybe you'd have a pen pal that you could talk to, or somebody that you can run up the landline phone bill from your parents with. But other than that, like you had to wait a whole year to…and bottle it up to talk about that stuff again.
Haley Radke: So you didn't really talk about it too much with your adoptive parents or your sister?
Mike McDonald: Not so much. I mean, it's not that they were closed off to it; they were very open. I mean, when I was 12, I asked to see my adoption file and they were like, “Oh yeah, it's right here. Take a look, go through it however much you want.”
And that was, like, pretty interesting. There wasn't much in it. There was my baby photo, and the medical file, and maybe one other sheet of paper with some kind of contract or legal binding, whatever. But there wasn't much in there. My sister did the same thing, after she came back from Holt one year, probably around the same age (like 12 or 13). And looked through her file, which was— There was, like, weirdly more papers in hers.
We learned a little bit more about her family history that I'm not gonna get into, but it was just very interesting. But they were very helpful, my parents, in trying to integrate Korean culture into our lives more than I think the adoption kind of side of it. I'm not like… That sounds bad, but I'm not trying to blame them, or anything. I just don't think there were that many resources.
And so you know, when I was a kid, like Power Rangers was really popular. (I guess Power Rangers is popular now again, or maybe it never left popularity.) But when I was a kid, Power Rangers was really popular. And so I was like, “Oh, I want to go take karate.” Because you know, the Power Rangers knew karate, I guess, in my head.
But my parents instead enrolled me in Taekwondo classes, which is Korean. And at first I was like, Well, this isn't karate. But then I was like, Oh, I can learn how to count in Korean and I'm learning like… There was a big Korean flag there and the master of the school is Korean. And I was like, Oh, this is actually really cool.
And so I think that was their way of trying to push me in that direction, indirectly. So they, you know, they did the best with what they could, I think, at the time.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. And I didn't mean to be like, “Oh, they didn’t talk to you about adoption?”
Mike McDonald: Oh, no, no, no…
Haley Radke: But no adoptive parents were, at our age— like they just weren't. They weren't taught that, right? So I think it's so cool that you had access to some part of the culture. I've never heard of these heritage camps. This is so interesting.
Mike McDonald: Oh yeah.
Haley Radke: My next question I often ask is, did you ever think of searching for your biological family?
Mike McDonald: When I was a kid, I used to think about it a lot. Like, I think most adoptees when they're very young, and I think most adult adoptees… I don't know why we talked about this a little bit at one of the forums I just led, but a lot of adoptees, I feel like, focus on the birth mother, the biological mother a lot.
And so when I was younger, maybe up through like third or fourth grade, (so is that like 9 or 10?), I feel like I thought a lot about the birth mother, my birth mother. And I would have these like weird, false memories. I think they were just, you know, there were these chimerical illusions about who my biological mother could have been or… And I was like, Oh, I remember this happening (which is ridiculous, because I was three months old when I came to the States). So it just, it makes zero sense. And I was…
My story is that I was born in a hospital and I was abandoned at the hospital. So literally, none of this would've happened. Like, it doesn't make any sense, in retrospect. As I got older, I think being a male, I started thinking more about my biological father and being like, Oh, what kind of traits do I share with him?
Do I look like him? Do I have the same mannerisms? What kind of… Is he into sports? What kind of sports does he like? Is he athletic? What does he do for his job? And what are his interests and hobbies? And those are the kinds of things that I would think about a lot. And so when I got into college, those kinds of questions started getting a little bit more intense.
I got to Rutgers. I went to Rutgers University in New Jersey (which was like 20 minutes away from where I grew up), but it felt very far away, because it was much more city-like where it was (compared to where I lived). And you know, the dorm had a T1 Internet connection compared to my, you know, 56k modem dial-up back home with AOL 1.0 on it and Windows 98.
And I know I'm speaking (like this is dating myself), but this, to put it into context, it's basically like going from like dial-up Internet to like Fios Internet (fiber optic internet), when I got to the dorm. So I was like, Oh my God, I have this great Internet connection. I could do things so fast now. I can search for my biological parents and it should take zero time, because of the magic of the internet.
And then I was like, Oh, and I can take 20 credits this semester (because that's a good idea for a college freshman). So I ended up doing all my time on schoolwork, and extracurricular activities, and almost none of my time searching. So I opened a search, but I didn't end up actually doing anything with it. So that kind of fell through the cracks, just because I was trying to focus more on academics and surviving college and all the things that go with that.
And so I didn't really do it again until I graduated college in 2007 and I went to Korea for the first time. I joined this organization in New York called Also-Known-As, which is an international adoptee organization that networks international adoptees in New York, which… I basically took the train in like three times a week to go hang out with everybody there.
And I'm still involved, but basically they were like, “Hey, there's this opportunity. We wanna send you on this trip called the Overseas Koreans Foundation.” (Like home tour, basically, for Koreans who've gone overseas, as evidenced by the name.) And it’s free. They'll pay for your airfare and hotel and kind of tour you around and you talk about adoption topics and you'll represent the organization.
And then following that week is the gathering of international Korean adoptees hosted by the International Korean Adoptee Association, which is all these different organizations (like Also-Known-As in New York), except, you know, there's one in the West Coast, there's one in Boston, there's one in Philly, there's a bunch in Europe, and there's one in Korea (or now there's probably a few in Korea)...
But they basically all come together and they rotate from Korea to Europe and America every year. So that year was in Korea. I got to go back. And the founder of Also-Known-As, who's a very dear friend of mine, Hollee McGinnis, actually went with me and helped me organize a trip to go to Holt's offices in Korea and review my file and kind of find out how I could do a birth search again.
So we go to the office and they basically opened the file and they're like, “Oh, we usually don't show the adoptees everything that's in your file.” Like they were weirdly honest with me, because they were like, “You don't seem crazy.” And I was like, “I kind of wanna take offense to that,” but I was also kinda like, “Oh, thank you. I'm happy I'm not a crazy person.” But I'm sure there are people… And I can't blame adoptees at all for, you know, being emotional about their history and their lives and wanting to find out answers.
And it gets very personal, obviously, because it is, it's about you and your life and you don't want to have to relinquish control over that information to anybody else, especially just some faceless agency that has control over these files that tell you who you are. But they decided to show me a lot, and that's where I found out I was born in this hospital in Masan. I was named after the hospital, so my name is not even my birth name (which is Kyung Hee) . It is not like a given name to me by my biological family. It is the name of the private hospital that I was born in. So you know, when I tell Koreans my Korean name, they're like, “Oh, he's a very famous doctor.” I'm like, “Cool.” But that's all that is to me, because she, like, had me and then just left.
And so it's weird because (and this is where the fun mystery part starts, right?) is that she, they have the time when she was admitted, like to the minute. They're like, “Here's the date and the time she came in here. So we know your birthday is your birthday. Here's her name,” (which was, I believe, redacted as I'm trying to recall this). “And then we have the time that she left the hospital, but we don't have any other information.”
And the hospital had—There was a fire at the hospital and so they lost all the records. And so at the time I accepted that as, Oh, that's really too bad. I guess there's nothing else I could do. What do you do about a hospital fire, right?
Especially a private hospital, before there were digitized records, because it's ‘85, so I guess that's the only copy. What am I gonna do? Masan is supposed to be a big city. I'm sure that there were plenty of births that day (or whatever), so there's almost like no leads or no information. So I kind of called it quits after that and figured out, emotionally, like where I am and who I am.
And as I got older, I've kind of just become much more comfortable with being like me being me. And kind of living in the skin that I'm in. And I have enough confidence in myself and self-esteem that I'm like, I don't need that history. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with who I am.
And I used to, when I was much younger and before this happened, I would judge older international adoptees (and I guess all adoptees) who were not curious about opening up a biological search, or the birth search, or trying to find out more information.
And I remember particularly this one guy, Corey, Well, I looked up to, he was like a cool guy. He was very athletic. He seemed very smart. And I would ask him, and I was like, “Well, do you have any…” (same question you're asking, right?) “Did you ever do a birth search? And what was that like?”
And he was just like, “No, I don't have any interest in doing any of that. Like I am who I am.” And I was like, “What are you talking about? That doesn't make any sense. Like, how could you not wanna know? About your history and blah, blah, blah…” And after that happened and that door kind of closed, even though I had no control over it, I was like, Oh yeah, well, you know… I got to about his age, (which was probably 28 at the time), and I was like, I see where he is coming from now. I totally understand.
If he had no control over that, or whatever, and he has enough confidence to be who he is, like that's a cool thing, too. Later when I start doing my podcast and talking with all these other adoptees, I find out they're getting very similar stories. And they're not born in Masan, Seoul at Kyunghee Hospital.
And, but there was also, like, a fire that burned all their records, or a flood that washed away all the records, or they were unrecoverable. And now I'm kinda like, There could not have been this many fires and floods in Korea. That doesn't make any sense. And I'm like, Is there just some kind of conspiracy or convenient answer that these social workers are told to give if an adoptee gets too curious about their history?
And so I haven't explored any further than that yet, but. It's something that's constantly on my mind. Like, Oh, should I go back and confront the agency about this? Or should I try to be like really nice to them and go open a search again and be like, “Hey look, I just would like to see if there's any more answers out there.” Or maybe I should hire a private investigator.
And I'm like, I don't know. What's the right answer? What's gonna come out of that? But that's kinda where I'm at now with the birth search.
Haley Radke: Well, thanks for sharing that. I know you know Katie Naftzger, you've had her on your show and we just did an episode together about deciding, “Okay, I'm…” You know, you come to the end of your search and you don't find anything and how do you find a resolution to that?
And so… I think that would be really helpful to go back and listen to, if you haven't heard that episode. But yeah, just having… Oh my gosh, this, sorry, this, like, conspiracy thing, it is blowing my mind. Yeah, not all the hospitals could have burned down in Korea.
Mike McDonald: Yeah, exactly.
Haley Radke: Whoa…
Can you talk a little bit about the Korean adoption program, like it sounds extensive and there's these world gatherings, all these different… How many Korean adoptees are there, do you know? (Ballpark-ish.)
Mike McDonald:So the ballpark figure, the last one that I had heard, and I'm not sure of, you know, the veracity of this number, or if it's been updated, but the last figure that I heard is that there have been 200,000 internationally adopted Koreans.
And so it's a large, it's a fairly large number. It's pretty extensive and they're all over the world. So you know, the United States, most of 'em came to the U.S. There's plenty in Canada. There are plenty in Europe. There are plenty all over the place. At the time, you know, up through about ‘88 is when it was really, really big, and they still do about…
Again, the last figures I've heard are probably about 1200-2000 adoptions a year. I'm not sure. I know they've been trying to kind of slow the amount of international adoptions from Korea and focus more on domestic adoptions. But as far as I'm aware, they've been having a really hard time with that, because there's a large stigma on single mothers, there's a large stigma on children born out of wedlock, there's even still a large stigma of adoptees in the country.
And so through ‘88, it was kind of like an open secret that Korea sent all these kids abroad. That it was just a very convenient way for people not to be stigmatized if they were unwed mothers, or if there was some situation where they had a child and they would've been looked down on for that. So they sent the kid away to be adopted and kind of hoped for the best, whatever their circumstances were.
But in ‘88, the Olympics were happening in Seoul and I think it was like NBC (it was one of the news organizations, basically) came out and was like, you know, “One of the main businesses in Korea is exporting babies.” And so it became this since ‘88, this giant like national shame that one of their biggest exports in Korea was children.
You know, I'm certainly not trying to take credit for this language. This language is not mine, but this is one of the popular narratives about that. So that's kind of when they started looking at how they could tackle this issue and kind of reverse all these stigmas and focus more on domestic adoptions in Korea.
I think it's been very slow going. I think most of the society (while it's rapidly changing), when I was in Korea—I lived in Korea for about two years after college…. You know, most of the time if you keep your mouth shut and wear the latest Korean fashion type stuff, nobody will look twice at you. If you have an iPod in and just walk around the city of Seoul, and are hanging out with your friends, and you're not like being too loud, they won't think twice. But as soon as they ask you a question in Korean, or you get into a taxi cab and you don't speak Korean, or you speak Korean with an accent, they're like, “What's up?”
They don't know where you come from, or what your story is, or why you can't speak Korean. That's the biggest thing, it's like, “Why can't you speak Korean?” And then, you know, in a Korean adoptee's case like, “Oh, I'm adopted.” Or you try to skirt around that question as much as possible, and then you come around to it, and you're like, “Oh, I'm adopted.”
All of a sudden they get this like really pained look on their face and they're very sympathetic. They're like, “Oh, I'm so sorry.” And “Oh, what can I do for you?” And all this stuff, and I may have taken advantage of that a couple of times, and gotten some free taxi cab rides. But it's like this whole national thing. It's like they feel so bad for you. “Oh, you must have had such a horrible life.”
And they… It's pity, is what it is. Pity. They pity you because you grew up as this ostracized thing. And it's so bizarre that adoptees are so stigmatized in the country, because it's almost always a storyline in every Korean drama. There's always this switched at birth or adoptee storyline, or something that has to be in every Korean drama. And it's always, obviously, very dramatic and it's a main thing over there. So they have this weird relationship with adoption in Korea.
Haley Radke: Oh, that's… That sounds so bizarre to me that there's such shame for them, “exporting babies as a product,” quote unquote. And yet, “Oh, I'm so sorry you were adopted and you don't know Korean.”
“Well, if you don't want us to be adopted out, why aren't you keeping us?”
Mike McDonald: Exactly.
Haley Radke: Interesting.
Mike McDonald: Yeah, it's very interesting, still, because the statistics that I've seen was that the birth rate in Korea (just like the global birth rate), has been steadily dropping. But the amount of adoptions (international adoptions) has remained steady. So even though the birth rate's been dropping, the amount of adoptions has continued. So the gap continues to widen. It's really weird.
Haley Radke: But, and that number, like 200,000 (or whatever it is now), I mean, that's a huge amount of their population. You know, are they lacking young people?
Mike McDonald: No, I don't think they're lacking young people, but there is a lot to be, a lot left to be desired in terms of support for single and unwed mothers in Korea (in terms of social services and all that). So it's something that they could be pouring more money into, as a country.
I mean, they're a top 10 economy in the world. They're not, certainly not in the same position they were after the Korean War, when they were recovering from, you know, one of the biggest wars of last century. You know, it's been a long time since that's happened, and Korea could probably be doing a bit more in terms of…
Haley Radke: Well, and there's… I mean, there's something to be said, like in my head, you know, There's all these GI babies and the shame of that. And then, now that's not really happening...
I don't know. There's so many factors. I just… Well, thank you. Thanks for talking about that. I know that's totally an aside to your story, but I know that you're really familiar with it.
Mike McDonald: Puts it a little bit into context, I guess.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever thought about DNA testing? Is that something that, like in Korea, do they test DNA? Are they on Ancestry? I don't know.
Mike McDonald: So I'm not sure where they stand as a nation on Ancestry. You know, my wife and I did 23andMe.
Haley Radke: Oh, okay.
Mike McDonald: So we did that, because my wife is also a Korean adoptee. So we met through that organization in New York (Also-Known-As), in like 2005, I wanna say? (I should know this. It's 2005. I'm gonna be… Yeah, it's 2005.)
So we met then. And we were friends for a very long time, but you know, there's always this question with adoptees, right? Oh, could we be related? So we got the test to make sure we were not related. And for sure, we're not. We’re not even like fifth to sixth cousins or whatever, you know. Did you do 23andMe?
Haley Radke: No, but I'm just like… I'm sorry, I never thought of that. Wow.
Mike McDonald: Yeah, so we wanted to make sure we were not related in any way, shape, or form. So we don't even come up on each other's DNA list, which we're pretty pumped about.
Haley Radke: This was before you started dating or like mid-dating or…?
Mike McDonald: It was before we got married, because I was taking Korean language classes at the time. And I introduced my Korean teacher to my wife (this is such an awkward story). I introduced my wife to my Korean teacher, and she was like, “Oh, it's so nice to meet you. You two look so much alike.”
And we were like, “Uh, what? No. No, we don't. We don’t look anything alike. Why would you say something like that?” And then she was like… (I don't know if this is true. She's literally the only person I've heard this from.) She was like, “Oh no, it's… I'm so sorry. That's just something that we say to be nice. Like you look like a good couple together.”
And I'm like, “Why would that be a compliment, ever, somewhere that you look alike?” I was like, “Especially to adoptees. Oh God.” So we were like, “Before we get married, we have to get a DNA test to make sure that we are not related.” And we're like, “If this happens, let's just never see each other again. Let's just call it, and just go our separate ways, and never speak of this to anybody.”
But luckily, that didn't happen. But it is something like we're— Oh, that's another thing that's (and I'm going off track and I'm rambling, which is a thing, which is a theme of the show for me, but not for yours).
But it is, that's another like weird storyline and dramas and movies about adoptees. Have you noticed that? Especially like international adoptees for some reason, and they're like, “Oh, I'm in love with you. You're my brother.”
“I'm in love with you, my sister, but we're adopted, so it's okay.”
And I'm like, Why is that okay? That's not okay. What is happening? What???
Haley Radke: The only movie I'm bringing to mine is Clueless, when she like falls in love with her stepbrother, I'm like…
Mike McDonald: That bothered me so much. And they're like, “But they’re step brother and sister.” And I'm like, “What? But that's, like… No. No.” That ending bothers me so much to this day. I hate it. I hate that movie because of that.
Haley Radke: Oh, so funny. I would love to ask you a little bit about your work with, Also-Known-As. So you work with teen mentorship. Can you talk a little bit about what you do? And then also maybe comment on what are some of the issues that you see coming up with adoptees?
Mike McDonald: Also-Known-As, like I said earlier, is an organization dedicated towards networking and championing international adoptees. And making sure that they have the resources of community, basically, at their behest.
Because there's a ton of adopt— I mean, New York, obviously, one of the largest cities in the world. And with the statistic of 200,000 Korean adoptees (that's not including all these other international adoptee communities out there), there's bound to be a bunch in New York, right?
So Hollee McGinnis started the organization in 1996, kinda to network all these adoptees together. And one of the premier programs is the Youth Mentorship Program, which I was brought into when I was 18 (when I had just got to college). Because I actually—When I was a camp counselor at Holt Camp, I had a friend who had just started getting involved in the adoptee community at the age of 21 (which to me, I was like, “Man, you're getting in really late to the game.”). Because I had been involved since I was like nine.
So I was like, “Oh…” Like it's always interesting to meet the people who are getting involved at an older age. All those things that I had years to kind of explore as issues, she was experiencing them, like, all at once, at 21. And so she knew that I lived very close, and it's very easy to get into New York from New Brunswick by train, and so she kind of reached out to me for help for a lot of the things she was going through at the time.
And she was like, you know, “I'm also involved in this organization. I'm getting involved with A-K-A in New York with their Youth Mentorship Program. Do you think you'd want to be a youth mentor there as well?” And I was like, “Sure, whatever. I'll come help you out, or whatever,” (not thinking it was gonna be anything serious).
But it was awesome, because these kids who, at the time, were up to 12 or 13 years old (and they start when they're like 7). They have this opportunity in the Tri-State area to come to New York, and on a monthly basis meet with each other and these adopted mentors, basically. And it was amazing to me, because you know, I grew up with that once a year resource (like I said), where you had to get it all out in one week every year. And throughout the year you—unless you talked about it with your siblings or if you had a really good relationship with your parents, you didn't talk about that kind of stuff.
And so it's not like every single mentorship event is focused on, “Let's talk about this part about adoption…” especially with the Youth Program. You know, we go bowling, and we eat pizza, or we go to the ice rink, or we play laser tag. It's like a lot of fun, because it's a safe space. If those kids have questions or whatever, there's people there throughout the year that they can trust to talk about those issues with.
If they don't want to talk about them with their parents, or they're not comfortable talking about it with their school friends, they can come to us. And it also provides them with a very positive adult adoptee role model for them to kinda look up to. You're like, “Yes, there are many successful adult adoptees who are investment bankers or doing all kinds of jobs in New York. They're actors, they're just normal people.” And it provides them with a very positive image to grow up to, which is awesome.
Once they started hitting that older age of 12 or 13, and they actually needed to talk about those issues a little bit more… Some of the very topical issues of very generic things like bullying (like school bullying, which is a serious issue, obviously), but it doesn't necessarily touch on the adoption portion. Once they hit 12 or 13, they start asking more adoption-related questions. And so from there, we founded the Teen Mentorship Program.
And so at the time, I was a Teen Mentor and starting in about 2005, I was the Youth Mentorship co-director, as well. And then in 2007, I moved away. I lived in Korea for a couple years and then traveled a little bit. I moved back to New York in 2015, where I resumed the A-K-A Youth Mentorship Program as the director.
Basically, I wanted to come and do the Teen Program and the Youth Program, but they had switched the programs there on the same date, so I couldn't do both at the same time. So they were like, “Which one do you wanna work with?” And I was like, “Oh, I'd love to direct the Teen Program or the Youth Program again.”
They're like, “We really need you to work with the teens.” So I was like, “Okay.” So it’s fine either way. I really wanted to do both, but I was like, “It's impossible. Unfortunately, I can't be in two places at once.” But I was ecstatic to take over the Teen Mentorship Program and help direct that again, too. So I've been doing that for the past two years. The kids are fantastic and they— It's awesome, because we'll do a little bit more mature events than with the Youth Program.
We'll do a lot of joint events with them, but in terms of— We have an adoption forum (where we could talk about whatever they want to talk about related to adoption). And they're a little bit more involved, in terms of gathering their identity in a positive way. And if they have any issues or anything, they can certainly bring those up with us and ask us questions about what we would do in certain situations, and we'll give them as honest an answer we can (as appropriate). So it's a really fantastic program.
I'm really excited to be a part of it. Unfortunately, I think I might be moving away this year, so I'm relinquishing the program until I move back to New York again. But it's a really fantastic program and both of them are great. So, I highly recommend anybody in the New York/New Jersey/Connecticut area to come and join.
Haley Radke: Do you see any issues with transracial or international adoptees that are different from domestic adoptees?
Mike McDonald: So, that's a great question. But I'm not super familiar with the issues of domestic adoptees. All my work…
Haley Radke: You don't know what my issues are? [laughs]
Mike McDonald: You should explain this to me so I can compare. [laughs]
All my work and experience has been in international adoption and that community. So actually the domestic adoption thing is totally new for me in terms of kind of discovering that. And even domestic transracial adoptees, I started interviewing them a lot on my show as well. And it's so interesting to hear a lot of their stories and things they deal with and how they compare and contrast with my experience as an international transracial adoptee.
So, it's super interesting. I'm not, again, I'm not sure what the differences would be between…
Haley Radke: No problem. That's totally fair.
Mike McDonald: It sounds like, I think the— From what I've read on, you know, Twitter and social media, you know, I follow all these different adoptee blogs and news and stuff, and it sounds like issues with getting files, history, birth certificates; all that kind of stuff is constantly an issue for all of us. And of course, there are plenty of legal obstacles that you have to try to re-legislate or get around or make your legislators aware of so they understand the issues.
I'm sure you're familiar with the Adoptee Rights Campaign and their work in terms of international adoption in the United States and the issues surrounding getting citizenship in this country, because their parents didn't do it (for whatever reason). I don't think that domestic adoptees have that issue, but I'm sure there are plenty of other similar types of legislative issues that come out of adoption, as a community in general. That there are problems with the systems in our respective countries that could be fixed with regards to access to history, I'm sure. So we were asking about 23andMe. 23andMe just got FDA (in the United States) approval to release a bunch of genetic information with regards to markers of Parkinson's and all these other kinds of diseases and stuff like that.
And those are the kinds of questions that (and answers that) we need as adoptees in terms of, you know, this is basic medical health information, that if anytime you go to the doctor, they're like, “Do you have any family history of heart disease, or cancer, or these things?”
And it's always like, “I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I'm adopted. I have no idea.” And it's frustrating. So it… There are plenty of sides to the debate about submitting your DNA to a corporation and what that means. But for me… And then this is, it's a personal decision for everybody, right?
Nobody's making you submit spit to 23andMe or AncestryDNA, but for me it was like not just, I wanna make sure I'm not related to my wife, but I also would like that medical history, as well. So if there are markers for these things, how can I prepare my health plan throughout my life? And what should I be on the lookout for? And how should I control my diet, or should I exercise more?
And those kinds of simple things, without having to go drive myself crazy about I need to prepare for everything. Because you can drive yourself nuts doing that, and those are basic questions that I think adoptees should have access to.
Haley Radke: Yeah. No, I totally agree. Okay. I have one more question before you before we go on to recommended resources.
I'm gonna dig one more time into transracial or international adoptee. So you mentioned that the middle school and high school that you went to were more racially diverse. Can you talk a little bit about that? I'm assuming (I don't know if this is right or not), that your adoptive parents are Caucasian?
Mike McDonald: Yes, they are as white as snow. [laughs]
Haley Radke: So can you just talk about that? Just growing up in a white household and....
Mike McDonald: So yeah, it was interesting... You know, New Jersey's a very interesting place. It certainly has a reputation of its own, but for what it's worth Hillsborough was a surprisingly diverse place for,, you know, a location that used to be pig, lamb, and dairy farms.
So, we had plenty of Black students, Latino students, Indian students, everybody…like, Asian students. So it was a very mixed class. It was still very, you know, white-dominated and very Roman Catholic. Like I grew up Roman Catholic, so it wasn't like— For me it was like, all my friends were Roman Catholic.
It was weird to find a Protestant, or a Muslim, or anything else. Later, when I go abroad or across the United States, they're… My wife is like, “Oh man, Catholicism is weird...” And I was like, “What are you talking about? We grew up that way.” But like even one of my friends who I just reconnected with from high school (she was Indian and she practiced Hinduism growing up) and she was like, “No, it was like, really, really uncomfortably Roman Catholic in Hillsborough.”
And I was like, “Really? That's what you felt like? Discriminated-against-wise?” And she was like, “Yes. I mean, like there were other Indians in the school, but they weren't always practicing Hindus. And this is like a whole— Like Catholicism was a whole— It was oppressively Catholic.” And we went to a public school, like a public high school.
There were other Catholic schools around, but it was like, you know, that was the main thing there. But it was very racially diverse, weirdly so for that kind of area in central Jersey. So I felt very comfortable, racially, in the school. I guess my mother (for some reason), she started working in the school system when I was in elementary school.
And as I moved up through middle school and high school, she also got jobs at the middle school and high school. And so when we were in high school, I guess you were in the hallway (and it's like again, a really big school). And I'd be walking—(this is kind of a funny story. This is not as serious). But my friend Rob, I was walking with my friend Rob through the high school and we saw my mom.
And she wanted to ask me a question about something we were doing later that day. And I was like, “You know, I have no idea. I don't know what my plans are later. Whatever, I'll talk to you later.” And Rob was like, “Mike, do you even know that woman?” I was like, “Yeah, Rob. She's my mom.” And he was like, “But she's white.”
And I was like, “You know what's really weird? So is my dad.” And he was like, his mind just exploded and he couldn't… For three days, I swear he couldn't figure it out. And three days later, he was like, “Wait, are you adopted?” I was like, “Rob, my name is Mike McDonald. Like, how do you not, how did you not get this earlier? You've been over my house. Like I don't understand.”
But you know, that's the kind of environment. It was just like, it was almost so diverse, that my adoption and my ethnicity almost never came up as that kind of issue. The only time it came up was like— they were weirdly, both times in history class (in different grades). And once was for (I don't know why), but this guidance came down about the teachers filling out surveys about what the primary language spoken in the household was of their students.
But they were not to ask the students what the primary language in the household was. They were just supposed to look at them and decide on the spot, and my teacher was livid about that guidance, for obvious reasons. But she was like, “What am I supposed to put for Mike McDonald, based on this guidance? What language am I supposed to assume that Michael McDonald speaks at home as his primary language, by looking at him? And then what are they gonna think, when they look at the form? So this guidance makes no sense and I refuse to fill it out.” And I'm like, “Well, that's the right answer and this is ridiculous.”
And then in my second history class later, my teacher was like joking around about the diversity of the class and he was like, “Oh man, you guys would be so screwed if you got like some substitute teacher who is, weirdly, like a white supremacist (which would never happen). He'd be like, ‘Oh, look at this class roster, like Akosh and Jariza, and Yaritza and all these names.’ He's ‘Oh, finally! A good white name: Mike McDonald.’ And then he looks up and he’s like, ‘Oh my God, what is happening?’”
So they were like, the diversity in the school was like, good natured when I went there. It was very humorous, how diverse our school was, like at a lot of times. We didn't have a lot of (as far as I can recall), like any racial issues surrounding anything in the school.
I may have been oblivious to it. Things may have changed, I have no idea. But in Hillsborough at the time, it was, you know (I'm not sure that idyllic is the word), but it was racially okay. I mean, I certainly had my share of bullying and that kind of stuff, but I think that was due to my size.
Because I was very— I was like 90 pounds until I was a junior in high school. So I was very small and easy to pick on, but I don't think it was racially motivated. And certainly the adoption thing never (for me) was an issue with my friends in high school. Everybody was kind of very accepting of it. It was just like a part of the diverse canvas of the school.
Haley Radke: That's so awesome. And it really sounds like your parents made a big effort to keep you included, like with the camps and things, and all that they knew to do at the time. So that's great. That's great.
Okay, is there anything else you wanna say to us before we move to recommended resources?
Mike McDonald: No. Is there any other question that you want to ask me before we move to recommended resources?
Haley Radke: I have like 50 more questions for you, but I can't. I can’t. You'll have to come back another time. You can do a second guest spot at some point.
Mike McDonald: Whatever you need.
Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Well, in honor of you being a podcaster, I decided I should re-recommend one of the podcasts I've already recommended, that's called Out of the Fog. And a specific episode of that is episode four, called “Mine Don't Swim,” which is about infertility.
Mike McDonald: Oh yeah.
Haley Radke: Couple seconds to get the joke. Yeah. It's about infertility adoption loss. If you haven't listened to Out of the Fog before, they just have a few episodes, because it's an incredibly well produced show.
It's only half an hour, but you can think of it like a This American Life kind of style. Lots of music. They make it at a radio station in Quebec (in Canada). I was so moved by this episode. I just… There were a couple different gems that stuck out to me and I don't wanna spoil them, I just want you to go and listen to that. It's a deep thinking episode, I guess. And yeah. And the other ones are great too. But this one is called “Mine Don't Swim.” And when it starts out, they're talking to this man who is talking about infertility and how he had to get tested and all the things that he and his wife were doing to have a baby.
And I thought, Oh no, don't tell me that my favorite show is like switching over to, “Let's help you adopt,” 'cause that's not my game. I'm sure you can tell by what I've talked about before, but it's not. So don't let those first couple minutes trigger you. Anyway, beautifully done. I love that show.
It's called Out of the Fog, and their website is outofthefog.news (or https://adoptee.substack.com/)and they're on Twitter @thefogradio. Okay!
Mike McDonald: Yes. I will have to listen to that one for sure. I follow them on Twitter, but I haven't yet had time in my podcast listening schedule to filter them in, but I will definitely check that out, for sure.
Haley Radke: Well, I'm having an easier time keeping up with yours now that it's not quite as frequent because, oh my goodness... I don't know how you had time to do a show every single week and you work full time and…oh my gosh.
Mike McDonald: Yeah I don't know how I had time, either. And that was one of the main things from a lot of my listeners, they're like, “I'm almost caught up. I have like 30 more episodes to go.” And I was like, “Oh my God.” I was like, “You have more than a day of listening to me?” I was like, I better slow it down. This is crazy. I’m like, I'm driving myself crazy, putting 'em out and I'm sure you're…
Haley Radke: And we can't keep up. Yep.
Mike McDonald: Yeah. So I'm like, I'll slow it down.
Haley Radke: Okay. Alright. So… Yeah, there. That's my bonus recommendation. So, your podcast is called The Rambler. And do you wanna tell us a little bit about that before we go into your recommendation?
Mike McDonald: Sure. So, my show is called The Rambler. You can follow me on Twitter @TheRamblerADHD, or you can like me on Facebook at facebook.com/therambleradhd.
ADHD is not in the official title. I don't officially have ADHD. It's just the show is very free flowing. It's certainly not as professionally put together or as deep as Adoptees On, or my recommendation, Adapted, or The Fog. It is less like NPR and a little bit more like WTF with Marc Maron, where I have a guest on, one-on-one (very much like this show).
But, you know, maybe my guest wants to talk about how much they love their dog for 10 minutes and I'll totally leave that in. And it's a little bit unfiltered. There are some episodes that are a little bit more…what's the word I'm looking for?
Haley Radke: Well, I know you have the explicit rating on your…
Mike McDonald: Yeah. Yeah. Some can be a little bit more explicit or R-rated in terms of language and content than others. And, you know, and so that's kind of indicative of the filter of my show, which is to say there is barely any filter. You know, I have some guests that—I find all the guests to be incredibly interesting. All the stories are so unique which is why…
And also, I have a ton of episodes out there for some reason, 'cause I'm a crazy person. So it's very hard for me to recommend a specific episode for you guys to listen to, unfortunately. So, just listen to all of them. But there are some out there that are more explicit than others and, you know, there are certain themes that people wanna talk about, but the focus of the show is always on international or transracial adoptees.
And so that's why I'm very unfamiliar, unfortunately, with domestic adoption. But I figured that can, you know, that's your niche and that's other people's niches. So this is…
Haley Radke: Well, if you're in your space, it’s good. That's good.
Mike McDonald: Yeah, exactly. There's, and there's room for everybody.
Haley Radke: That's right.
Mike McDonald: And so this is where I will segue into my recommendation Adapted, which is Kaomi Goetz’s podcast. And that's a little bit also, much more professional NPR-style than mine. But she does it from Korea, and I think it's part of her Fulbright scholarship over there, where she interviews Korean adoptees, specifically living in Korea.
And it's a very limited series. And so if you are interested in exploring more of that territory, that specific territory and their experiences over there, it's very interesting. I'm gonna recommend episode eight, Kim Craig. She's a multiracial Korean adoptee who actually never got her citizenship to the United States.
And so she's been living in Korea, but she is unable to return to the United States, because she doesn't have her citizenship and she has to go through all these hoops. It's crazy. She has her daughters that are there, that are, (I believe) U.S. citizens. And so one is going to college in the States, but she can't even go visit her.
So that girl has to come back and forth and stuff like that. It's totally insane. The whole thing with international adoptees that don't have citizenship is this crazy loophole. It is insane, with adoptees not just getting their citizenship once they're adopted to the United States, or their respective birth countries.
So that's an episode that I will definitely recommend to you guys to listen to, in terms of Kaomi's podcast, which is fantastic.
Haley Radke: Thank you. That is awesome. I'll definitely listen to that episode. That's a huge issue that’s really disturbing. Okay, last thing: Twitter. We're Twitter friends. Tell me what to follow.
Mike McDonald: Okay. Well, if you want to follow my hashtag, specifically (and I think other adoptees are kind of piling on this). I do the hashtag #adopteevoices for all the guests on my show, whenever I publicize their episode. I also highlight other adoptee voices that I find on Twitter that I think are important to highlight.
I mean, like so much of the adoption conversation (especially a few years ago, it's definitely grown since then), was very much out of the adoptive parents' point of view. And as adoptees, you and I and a lot of the audience know that's only one part of the triad. (No offense to parents, or their awesome organizations and work that they're doing), but adoptees also have a voice and experience, and it's important to get those stories out there.
So that is what the hashtag #adopteevoices is all about. And I encourage any adoptees out there (including you) who wanna share the stories, and journeys, and community of adoptees and the strength that we bring, and the stories that we have to the table to use that hashtag whenever they tweet out or put it on Facebook, or whatever.
We have our own voices and people will need to hear it. It's important to the community. It's important in informing things like policy, and access to birth certificates or medical records, or what the experiences growing up were like. So, that's kind of what that hashtag is all about and people should definitely check that out.
Haley Radke: Thank you so much, Mike. It's been such a pleasure talking with you, and thanks for sharing your story and also teaching us a little bit more about what you do with the Mentorship Program and more about the Korean adoption program. Because, wow… I learned a lot from you tonight. Thank you.
Mike McDonald: Thank you so much for having me on and allowing me the space to share my story a little bit. This is— It's so weird being on this side of the microphone, on Skype and the interview, so…
Haley Radke: It's so fun.
Mike McDonald: It is fun.
Haley Radke: It's so much less stress.
Mike McDonald: I don't know if it is. I'm much more comfortable asking the questions. It's totally cool.
Haley Radke: Oh good.
Mike McDonald: Keep doing what you're doing. It's great. It's so fantastic.
Haley Radke: Oh, thank you so much. You, too.
Mike's been giving back so much to his adoptee community. I'm really thankful for his leadership and service in this area. You can send him a note on Twitter to thank him for sharing with us @TheRamblerADHD.
I want to thank all of you who are supporting me on Patreon. You're making it possible for me to continue producing this podcast for you. The secret Facebook group is growing and now includes some of our adoptee therapists that have been featured on the Healing Series. They're off therapist duty in there, but it's been amazing to be connected and discuss some of the episodes together.
If you'd like to support Adoptees On as a monthly patron, I would be so honored and pleased to thank you with an invitation to the Facebook group. So you can visit adopteeson.com/partner for more details.
I just have one more thing to ask. Would you share this episode with a friend? Maybe you know an international or transracial adoptee who would really benefit from hearing Mike's story, and also from listening to his podcast, The Rambler. And remember, some people really struggle to even listen to a podcast, so it can help them if you would walk them through how to download and subscribe to the show. You can be a podcast evangelist.
Thanks for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.
