Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/33
Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season Two, episode 10: Marni. I'm your host, Haley Radke. My guest today is Marni Hall, and if you are in reunion or are anticipating one shortly, this episode is for you.
Marni shares her story and walks us through three guiding principles that she has for a successful reunion and they are so helpful. Don't worry if you don't have a pen handy. Everything we'll be talking about today will be on the website, adopteeson.com. Just search for Marni in the search bar and her episode will pop right up. Before we get to the interview, I want to read an iTunes and Apple Podcasts review all the way from Australia: “Thoughtful and thought provoking.” (This is from Mandache). “A broad range of adoptee voices offering insights into their personal experiences. Host Haley Radke is warm and holds space for opinions outside of traditional narratives for adoptees. This will be full of ‘me too’ moments and the healing series episodes are essential listening.”
Thank you so much for those kind words. And for listening all the way across the world. Hello, from Canada.
Okay, friend, my last note before we jump in. Marni was incredibly prepared for this episode, so just laugh at me for calling it an interview. That's okay. Just come along for the ride with me. It's a great story. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Marni Hall.
Marni Hall: Hello, how are you?
Haley Radke: Great. I'm so glad that you agreed to share your story with us. Thank you.
Marni Hall: This is very exciting, because I listened to all the episodes. And I like to walk at lunch and it's a great thing to listen to during my lunchtime walk.
Haley Radke: Oh, that's fun. You don't go back to work with blotchy eyes?
Marni Hall: No, not too bad.
Haley Radke: Oh, that's good. That's good. That's just me. I'm the one that cries all the time.
Well, Marni, I would love it if you would share your story with us.
Marni Hall: So I was adopted in Columbus, Ohio. I was born in February 1967 and I was adopted two weeks later. I joined my brother, who was adopted first (in 1965). And I was raised in a county just north of the county that I was adopted out of.
So when I was about nine years old, I think it was my parents who took my brother and I to the bank because they had something they wanted to show us that was in the safe deposit box. So they pulled out our birth certificates and they told us together that we were adopted.
And I was like, “Well, who are my real parents?” And they were like, “Well, we are, see our names are on your birth certificate.” And I was like, “Uh, okay.” And that was pretty much it. That was the end of the discussion. And we didn't really talk about it much after that.
And even we'd see people and they'd be like, “Oh, I see how you guys look alike.” And I'm like, “Well, we didn't…” I was blonde, they weren't. But we weren't really allowed to correct them. We were just supposed to kind of smile and go, “Heh-heh. Yeah.” So that was kind of hard. But, you know, I didn't really know much about adoption growing up.
I do remember feeling depressed in middle school, which, you know, middle school's pretty hard for a lot of people, right? You know, Where do I fit in? Who am I? But I think with not knowing my beginnings, that made it extra hard. But I'm pretty resilient. I've learned that not all adoptees handle things the same. I kind of went into the overachiever, people pleaser role as an adoptee. You know, I understand that some adoptees are kind of the “compliant adoptees” and some adoptees are the “angry adoptees.” I would say my brother was the angry one, and I was the compliant one.
But I definitely wanted to please people. So when I was a class officer, I was a 4-H leader, volunteer, straight-A student, athlete, musician, and ventriloquist (of all things). It was kind of interesting. So when I look back at it, I'm like, you know, I really needed to be accepted and valued and I really feared rejection and failure.
And I didn't think about it at the time, but as I've grown up and looked back, I think that behavior stems from my adoption. So then I went on to college and started my career in my early twenties. And when I was about 25, my mom gave me a piece of paper that said “Your Baby Story” on it. And it actually came from the adoption agency that I was adopted from.
And the only reason my mom gave it to me at this point was my brother (my older brother), he had developed diabetes. And they gave him his sheet, seeing if there might be something in there that the doctors can get some medical history from it. And she's well, “If we had to give this to your brother, we might as well give yours to you.” I'm like, At 25, you're just now giving me this?
But at least I had it. And I think that kind of triggered me to think more about the adoption, because I kind of set it aside and just kind of built this protective structure around me. So that made me think about it, but I didn't know how to talk about it, because, you know, we didn't talk about it, growing up. You know, I was part of the Baby Scoop Era. So just, you kept your secrets. That just kind of sat there.
And then as I got older and then, you know, the internet came along (because you know, when I was growing up, we didn't have the internet). But the internet came along, and I found out about these sites where you could enter in what you knew. So I registered when I was born (location) and all that, and I didn't get anything back.
That's really as far as my search went, but I just continued to go on with my life with this protective barrier (as I like to call it). And I thought emotions (other than joy) were unacceptable, because I was the people pleaser and the conflict avoider. And I thought I had to be grateful, because I was chosen. And I would always tell my friends who were having problems, you know, “You just need to fake it till you make it.” You know, I never really understood why I was not very— I was not able to empathize with them because I thought, You have to be happy, you have to be!
So that was kind of interesting. And I'll get to this later, where I've really gone through this transformation these past two years, where I can experience emotions now. And I can empathize with people, and my friends have really seen that difference in me. So then as I continued to grow older, my friends would say, “Well, don't you ever think about your birth family? Don't you wanna find them?” And I'd be like, “Yeah, you know, but, you know, they made a difficult decision. And I don't wanna invade their privacy. I'm sure they've moved on...” But I’d always say, “Well, it'd be okay if they found me.”
I was like, I didn't wanna take the risk of messing up their life by showing up, but I'd be okay if they found me. But the thing is, I really wasn't looking for a relationship. I just wanted to send her a letter. And I really just focused on my birth mom. I never really thought about my birth dad. I don't know why that is. Maybe that's common, I don't know.
Haley Radke: It's very common.
Marni Hall: Is it? Okay.
So all I wanted to do was send her a thank you letter, because I've had this amazing life. And I just wanted to let her know I was okay. That was really my own focus. So I didn't really talk about this (my desire) with people, because I just didn't know how to do it. It was just a private struggle.
So then I fast forward. And now it's March 2015, and we've had some other people on your show talk about this: Ohio opened up its adoption records. All adoptions between 1964 and 1996 were closed. And you could never get your original birth certificate until they changed the laws.
And I was living such a private struggle with wanting to find my birth family that I didn't even know that there was this gathering in Columbus the night before. And that they were marching over to the records when the doors opened. I work in Columbus, like a couple blocks from where all this was happening.
And I didn't know it was going on until I looked at the news and saw the news clip about it. And I was like, Oh, I should walk over there and just see what it's all about. But I just chickened out, because it was just my private struggle. But I had all my paperwork ready to go and I had to explain my story to the coworker to notarize my paperwork. I said, “Well, you know, I was adopted and I'm gonna send in for my records.” And she thought that was pretty cool.
So anyway, it didn't take very long to get the records. And just like Erica in Season 2 of your show, I got my records on Easter weekend. I had gone away. We have a cabin about an hour away and I had gone to the cabin and I came back to the house just long enough to drop the dogs off and go to church. And there was the envelope.
I was like, “Gasp!!” So you rip open the envelope and get enough information from it. And then I had to get to church. And I sat in the balcony during Easter service and didn't hear a single thing that happened during the church service, because I was on my phone Googling this name that was on the birth certificate. So that was pretty exciting.
But the really cool thing was—My birth mother's name's Karen. And she had seen the news about opening the records. She had talked (she only had a couple friends that she had ever shared that she had relinquished a child). And she called one and said:
-“Did you see the news?”
-“Yeah.”
-“What does this mean?”
-“I don't know.”
-“Could she find you?”
-“Maybe!”
-“But if she hasn't found you by now, do you think she's gonna find you now? I mean…”
So when she filled out this form, she had filled out the medical history that the state was asking birth parents to fill out. And on the first page of that form, there was a checklist. One being: “You may contact me at this number.” The second check was: “You can contact me through an intermediary.” The third one was: “I do not wish to be contacted at this time.” Well, that's what Karen had checked, and I was crushed. I was like, But I just wanna send a thank you letter. And here she doesn't wanna be contacted.
But she took the time to fill out the medical history. So that was kind of mixed information. And she had filled out, included every name she's ever had—her maiden name, her first married name, and her current married name. So she checked the box, but she made it pretty easy to find her. And when I asked her about it, I'm like, “You checked that box!” And she was like, “I just checked it because I didn't know if you were even looking for me. I didn't know if you were even in the area.” So we kind of joke about that.
So anyway, I have her name and I'm going through the Google search and she's not on Facebook. But through the search, I found her husband's name, and he was on Facebook. So I'm looking through his Facebook page and there was a picture of her. I'm like, “Gasp!” And this is still Easter Sunday, right? So I'm going around at a party of 30 family members and I'm like, “Look, I just found my birth mother.” So that was kind of fun.
And as I'm going through his friend list, he’s got a friend that's friends with one of my friends. I was like, “Oh, wow!” So I contact my friend and say, “Hey, do you know Karen so-and-so?” And she was like, “No, but my friend does, who had the same last name.” And it turns out—Let's see… Her friend's husband's dad's wife. (Could draw a picture on that! I know that was confusing.) Anyway, so I confessed to my friend, “Well I think it's my birth mom, but I don't think she wants to be contacted, because she had checked that box.”
Well, her friend was really curious. “Well, who wants to know about Karen?” And so my friend told her friend that I was looking for—that she thought that she was my birth mother. I'm like, Oh, this is not how I wanted this to play out. I'm like, Oh, no. So this girl (who I don't know) calls Karen, says, “Hey, someone's trying to find you. She thinks you're her birth mother.”
And so I talked with my friend, I said, “Look, just tell her I just wanna send a thank you letter. I don't wanna intrude. I just wanna let her know I'm okay.” But when this girl called Karen and said, “Hey, someone's trying to find you,” Karen’s like, “It's fine. I filled out the paperwork. She can send me the letter.” So it worked out okay, but I was freaking out for about 24 hours when I felt like I had screwed up that first contact. But it actually turned out okay. I was like, Whew!
So anyway, that's how we had our first contact was through a friend of a friend, which was crazy. So I sent my first letter. I had this letter drafted in my head my whole life, you know: “Hey, I've had a good life. I've had a great job, a good education. I did all these things. I've got a great husband. I've got these three great kids. I just thank you. Thank you for my life, 'cause I've had a really good one.”
And I thought, Okay, I'm done. I sent my letter and I can go on with my life, right? And then she wrote back. I had not thought this through. So she shared in her letter back to me, and she went on to say, “It's okay that she wrote me. I didn't know what checkbox to check. It's fine. I know that it wasn't a legal binding document, and if you were gonna find me, you were gonna find me.”
So she shared her story with me in this first letter, where she was graduating. She dated this guy in college and as she was graduating from college, her parents had gotten her a trip to Europe for nine weeks. And so she graduated, she said goodbye to this guy. You know, they had a—it was a fun little romance, but it was over.
And she went off to Europe and then she was like, Hmm… Uh-oh. So by the time she came back and told her parents and confirmed everything, you know, they had already lost contact. And you know, in 1966 you either got married or you relinquished. There was no other choice. So she never told him. And as of today, he still doesn't know about me.
So she did what a lot of people did in the sixties. She went away to Cleveland and lived with a friend and worked. And then with the last two months of the pregnancy, she came back to Columbus and she lived in the Crittenton Home for Unwed Mothers (which a lot of the women did). But since she was a college graduate, she was actually one of the older women in the home. And she told me about how they had jobs and she was actually helping the younger girls with their schoolwork since she was a college grad.
But here's the thing that really I think makes our reunion: is she then went back to grad school and became a middle school guidance counselor. The tools that she learned through that job helped her process her own grief, because she learned the tools of counseling. And she was able to learn the stages of grief. And so she processed her grief back, you know, way back in her early adulthood, while I didn't process mine until I found her.
So getting this letter really threw me for a loop, because I just really had not thought about it. And that protective barrier that I talked about earlier, it just came crashing down, and I felt so exposed.
Haley Radke: Can you talk more about that? Feeling exposed? And her letter to you was so unexpected. I don't know. I find— That's so surprising to me that you never thought the next thing. You're just like, “I have to send this letter.”
Marni Hall: You know, I'm very compliant. I like order. You just do things in a certain order. And I just said, Okay. I'll find her, I'll send you a thank you note and then I'll be done.
I had not thought past that. And like I told you earlier, I like to listen to your show when I'm doing my walk at lunch. And so I was doing a lot of walking at lunch during this time period. In fact, I was parked— (my parking lot to my building was about a 10 minute walk). So I had a 10 minute walk to my office, back to my car, and then I would do a 30 minute at lunch. And I felt like I was going to explode.
I just—There were so many new emotions (other than joy) that I had never experienced. And I just didn't know what to do. I just really— And you know, you talk about you're easy to tear, tearing… Crying is easy for you, right?
Haley Radke: Yeah. You didn't see, you couldn't see. But I've already cried once during my Marni’s story.
Marni Hall: I have a very difficult time crying, because I feel like I have to be in control. And crying gives up control and it's an emotion other than joy. And so I have—and it's not something my family did. But they did not cry. They were very formal people and so they didn't hug; they shook hands. And I always felt a little out of place there. I just didn't know what these emotions meant. I didn't know how to process them, and I just felt like I was gonna explode.
So the only day the only way I could cry is if I had some certain go-to movies that I knew would make me cry. And I'd watch them by myself and then I'd have a big good old bawling session. And I could feel the release. Even two years into my reunion, it's not something that comes easily. I don't know why. I feel better afterwards. But I could—Even during the time of feeling I was gonna burst, I couldn't get the tears out.
You know, in Ohio, since they opened up those records, there was this big flood of people getting their birth history and finding birth family all at the same time. So there was this intensive need for support. And so on Facebook (it's really interesting how it works), but I would read any article about it (about adoption, as people were finding birth families). And by doing that, it suggested a group for me: Ohio Birth Parent Group, which was a group that helped support Adoption Network Cleveland in getting the laws passed (the law changed). And they sponsor the support group.
And so I reached out to the administrator of that group and found out the meeting schedule, and I was going to two meetings a month at the beginning, because I really needed it. There was a group for general support, which was birth parents, adoptees, adoptive parents, or anybody related to adoption. And then there's one for just adult adoptees, and then there's one for just birth parents.
But then I just got too busy and I couldn't do two a month, so I just go to the general support one. Because I really learned a lot from hearing birth parents and adoptive parents share their stories so that I could put myself in their shoes.
Haley Radke: Can you just talk a little bit about just what happens at these support meetings? What's the structure, that kind of thing?
Marni Hall: Yeah, so the support meetings—I'll talk about the general support one, which has the birth parents, the adoptive parents, and the adoptees at. We all show up, and we, you know, get a name tag and everything. And we have guidelines of, you know:
-This is not counseling, this is not professional counseling. It's just peer support.
-Put your phones away.
-People used to use different language.
-Things are private, keep the conversations in private.
So we kind of set the ground for safe conversation. And then the format for ours is people come with things they wanna talk about and they just say, “Well…” They just open it up. “Does anybody have anything to share?”
And then someone will share a story like… You know, early on for me, I shared, “I got my birth certificate, I sent a letter and I thought that was it. But now she's written me back and now I want more. And I don't know what to do.” And so people who had already been through it shared how it worked for them.
And then the next month, I shared—(or two months after that), I shared, “We met at a park and it was wonderful.” And I was on cloud nine. And like 20 minutes later, someone came in a little bit late. In Ohio, if the birth parent sent in medical history, they could have their name redacted from the birth certificate. There hasn't been that many to do it. I think maybe no more than maybe 200-some people had their names redacted. And this woman came in, and she was one of them.
The birth parent didn't do a very thorough job in filling out the medical history. They just kind of checked a couple boxes. And so they came away with nothing. They didn't really get any good history, but yet they also didn't get a name. And that person was so angry. And it was so hard for me to hear this anger when I was so happy.
So those are the types of conversations that go on at the meetings. And it is just people sharing what they're going through and other people share what worked for them. Or they offer resources. So that's where I found two of the books that I read that really helped me process my grief and prepare for my adoption reunion.
People get each other. It's like a tribe, you know. It's like you're in a place where people get you, and it's safe. I tell anybody if they have a support meeting in their area, they should go. It's just very validating that, Oh my gosh, these people are feeling the same way that I have. And I didn't talk about it, 'cause I thought it was weird. And now I'm finding out that no, that what I was feeling was normal. So it's very validating.
The support meetings were crucial for me in my healing process. So after— so I’m gonna back up a little bit. So Karen and I, we continued the snail mail (writing letters back and forth), but I gotta say, that is hard. Do you know how hard it is to send a letter and you’re waiting? They have to get the letter and then they have to respond, and wait for that letter to come back. That was nerve wracking.
But we exchanged two rounds of letters and then in the third letter I sent her my email. And in that letter I said, “Would you like to meet?” And she emailed me back. She said, “Thank you for the email.” And she said, “Yes, we can meet, but with conditions.” Because remember, she's the middle school guidance counselor, so she has better self-control than I do.
And so my oldest child was graduating from high school at the time and we were having—my mom was coming into town, and we were having a big party. And so Karen said, “We can meet, but you need to focus on your family first. You’ve got some big stuff going on. Take care of your family, get your daughter graduated, have your party. Spend time with your mom. And when that's all done, we can meet.”
So before we met, at my support meeting, someone had recommended the book called The Adoption Reunion Survival Guide: Preparing Yourself for the Search Reunion and Beyond. And I think this book was actually written, like in the early seventies, so some of the language was kind of dated (but it was kind of funny). So I read it and I actually, I'm kind of— I have to confess to you, I'm kind of a geek. And I joke that's my role in our reunion: I'm the geek. So I summarized the book in bullet points and I sent it to my birth mother before we first met, so that we could be prepared for our meeting. So some of the three big takeaways from this book, it said:
Be relaxed.
Don't go overkill with a new haircut, clothes or makeup.
No gifts.
It's funny…We show up, and we're both wearing t-shirts, jeans, and athletic sandals, because that's just how we roll. So we were very similar in how we dressed.
But we met— So I found her at the beginning of April of 2015 and we met for the first time June 6th, 2015, after my mom had left town. But you know, finding Karen brought on a lot of guilt for me. And I think that's pretty common (which I learned), because I was feeling disloyal to my mom for exploring this relationship. So when she was in town and I was gonna meet Karen the next day, you know, I'm like, You gotta do things in a certain order.
So I'm like, Well, if I'm gonna meet Karen on Saturday, before my mom leaves, I gotta tell her everything. I can't have this meeting with Karen behind her back. So I summarized (in bullets, of course) my conversation that I was gonna have with my mom. And I practiced with Karen. And Karen goes, “Oh honey, you know, you don't have to tell your mother everything at once.” And I'm like, “I don't?” She goes, “No.” I'm like, “Oh, thank God.”
So I did not tell my mother that I was gonna meet my birth mother the next day. I did tell her that I was going to support meetings and I was feeling guilty for having curiosity. And I was learning a lot about myself and one of the things that I had learned was that I had experienced a loss and I had never grieved it. I think that is so weird that it wasn't until I found that I really understood that I had a loss. And that was so profound to me, because I had never realized I had a loss to grieve until I found. So that was, I feel like that was kind of the beginning of my transformation of healing.
So Karen and I, we met at a park. You know, the book said! (I like to follow the rules in the book, right?) So the book said, you know, “Have a neutral location.” So we met at a park and she… And I feel like I already knew her at this point, 'cause we're emailing back and forth almost daily. And she pulls this device out of her car. And I'm like, “What's that?” It was a selfie stick. I didn't even know what a selfie stick was two years ago. She goes, “Well, we gotta take a picture.” So we went on our little hike at the park and we had this one spot that we take a selfie picture at. And at our one year anniversary of that day, we went to the same spot and took a selfie picture, so we plan on doing that this coming up year.
So this whole transformation kind of kicks into full gear at this point. I'm continuing to go to the support meetings. I'm reading these books. And I'm like an onion, this peeling away these layers. And as I read something in a book, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's me. Or I read a blog. I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's me.
It was just so validating. And we called this process my “aha” moments, because I was like having all this self-awareness that a lot of the reasons for the way I am is because of my adoption. I had never thought through that.
But here's what's kind of funny… So you gotta remember what happens when you take—(because not only am I an accountant, I'm a government accountant. So it does—Now that's why I call myself the geek).
Haley Radke: I'm sorry. All your bullet points are making a lot of sense right now.
Marni Hall: [laughs] Yeah. And when I email with Karen, I use bullet points. I'm a geek! So what do you get when you combine…? (But I'm a geek with a personality. I always consider myself the comedian.) Anyway…
So, what do you get when you combine an accountant with a middle school guidance counselor? Well, what you get are guiding principles for a successful reunion. So as we're talking, we realized that we need to develop some guidelines for our reunion. And we had a lot of topics we had to work through. You know, what do we do about birthdays? What do we do about holidays? What do we do about, you know, my relationship with my mom and protecting her? And how do we blend families?
We just had all this stuff we had to figure out. And so, since I'm the geek— And even when we're texting back and forth, you know the emoji that has the big glasses on it?
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Marni Hall: That's me, that's my emoji. And she always gets to be the angel, because she's been guiding me through this process of processing my grief. So I joke with her that, you know, “Why do you get to be the angel? And I have to be the geek?” But anyway, we use those emojis when we text back and forth.
So anyway, things just kind of fell into place. It's like we talked about these guidelines. And because of my desire to have things nice, and neat, and formal in bulleted points, I actually created a formal agreement (kind of like a memorandum of understanding, because I kind of work in the business world). I typed it all up, and I added a picture to it to make it, to try to be funny a bit with it. But, you know, we basically have three rules that we follow. And I was sharing this at one of my support meetings. So that's the things we do. We share what's working.
And the facilitator kind of looked at me and she’s like, “Really? You wrote up a formal agreement of understanding for your adoption reunion? Because will you write a blog about that? We'll put it on our website.” And so I told Karen about it, and I did the first draft and she did a bunch of edits to it. And so we got published on the blog, on our blog on the Ohio Birth Parent Group's website.
But anyway, here's our three rules for our guiding principles for our reunion (which we call GP). Number one (for guiding principles, number one). She has to call me out on this one all the time, but that rule is:
New relationship must not interfere with preexisting, extraordinary lives. This relationship is in addition to, not a replacement of.
You know, that's like when my mom was in town and my daughter was graduating. She's, “Look, you need to put your family first. Take care of your family. I'll be here. This is in addition to.” So when she finds that I— (because I love texting with her and writing back and forth). And when she sees that I'm maybe communicating too much, she has to remind me, “You got a family, don't ignore them. Take care of your family.” So that's GP number one.
The second rule is:
The relationship will look forward, not back. There are no what ifs.
Because we can't change the past. So we look at today and forward.
And number three is:
Allow yourself to celebrate and receive this gift.
And I added that one, because earlier I talked about how at the support meeting I was so excited. We had just met, I was on cloud nine, and the woman came in so angry that her birth parent had redacted their name from the birth certificate. I was so sad. And I said–-at the end, we kind of had… Everybody had a takeaway of, “what did they get out of the meeting?” And I was like, “How can I be happy when there's so much sadness?” And one of the other facilitators came over to me and she said, “It's okay to celebrate the gift.” And so I hold onto that.
So, as I read others’ stories that don't have the outcome that I have, I empathize with them, but I still have to celebrate the gift. That's how we came about having formal guiding principles.
Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Okay. I have to stop you here. Okay, because I think the only reason I have a supremely healthy relationship with my bio dad and his family is because of the rules that my therapist gave us. So I love that.
And ours were much more specific and lengthy, but there was— My siblings were involved and they were, you know, still very young at that point. And so there was stuff about them and, but yeah. That's so cool.
The first one–-that was in mine too. Oh my gosh. You were talking about, you had all these different emotions. And Karen was really helping guide you through learning how to deal with that and manage that. How are you doing now? What does that look like for you?
Marni Hall: You know, I would say my first year was the year of processing, which we called my “aha” moments. And it took about a year before I came “out of the fog,” (as we, you know, like to use that phrase). And now…now I'm just living. I'm grounded.
I tell people that I feel like I had this inner child that was stuck. My outside body grew up, but I had this inner child that was stuck. And once I was able to truly process my grief, this inner child started to grow up. Now I wouldn't say it's completely caught up. I'm sure I have more processing to do.
I'll have a trigger here or there. Like that show, This is Us. I don't know if you've seen any of that yet. If you haven’t in Canada; I know there's sometimes a delay. (There's some people I know in Europe, and they haven't gotten it yet.) But there were some triggers on that show. So I still experience some triggers and that surprise me. And then I write down my reaction, and then I go over to Karen's and we talk about—
You know, back at the beginning, I said I found her, but I forgot to mention that she lives five miles from me. I don't think I brought that up at the beginning.
Haley Radke: No.
Marni Hall: Oh yeah. So by the way, she lives five miles from me.
Haley Radke: Oh my gosh.
Marni Hall: So as I read these books and go to my support meetings, I have “drive-bys,” because she's like five miles away. So I go over for drive-bys and we have playdates where we sit around her kitchen table and we talk. But this might be a good time to share some of those “aha!” moments because they're really critical on how I was able to get through that fog.
So there's a book that I read (recommended to me) called Reunion: A Year in Letters Between a Birth Mother and the Daughter She Couldn't Keep. And I just want to read this to you, because this hit me across the head. It was so direct on for me.
“So as hard as this reunion has sometimes been, it has also been profoundly healing. Before writing my letters to Ellen, I had never been able to really share my grief with anyone. I had spent my life pantomiming what I thought was mental health: always being in control, denying all unacceptable emotions, happy and positive, all the livelong day. And it had kept me in a state of emotional limbo. I hadn't been fully living my life.”
And I read that and I'm like, Holy crap. That's me. Because I didn't think I was allowed to have emotions other than joy. And now I was. I was having fear, sadness, grief, and then back to joy. You know? You just got this full circle.
And then I read— (was it a year ago, November?) Lost Daughters had a series where they had a bunch of blogs, and I read one that was called “My ‘What Ifs’ Are Not About You.” And it talked about adoptees having questions and feeling guilty about those questions. And, “Well, aren't I supposed to just be happy and grateful?” You know, you feel like you don't have the right to ask the question, so we don't. Because we don't want to hurt our parents. And I'm like, Yes, that's me.
So this person goes on in this blog to say that the questions are not about anything the adoptive parents have done wrong. They just have questions. And the author goes on saying that they think they wished adoptive parents would start the conversation. Because a lot of adoptive parents were like, “Well if they don't ask, they must be okay.”
Like, “No, we need you to start the conversation.” And it says—this is what the adoptee suggested in this blog: “I know you may not have questions now, but you may in the future. I want you to know if that happens, I'm here, ready to listen.” And if I could change one thing in my adoption, it would've been this. I wish my parents knew that I needed them to initiate the conversation, but since they didn't, I didn't, because I was too scared of hurting them.
So when I meet people who are adopting, I hammer this home (or they have already adopted). I'm like, “You need to, you've got to initiate the conversation. Don't wait for them to bring it up, or they won't. Because they don't want to hurt you.” I've kind of taken that on as a personal task of getting that out there.
But so I read this blog and it triggered a conversation. And so I— Of course I made my notes and I went over to Karen's, because you remember my bullet points, right? So I like to bullet point everything. So I took this blog and I wrote all these notes off on the margin. And I sent it to Karen so that we could talk about it. And it was at this time that I finally admitted to Karen that my adoption had made me sad. Because I didn't want to tell her, because I didn't want to hurt her.
And she's like, “I've been expecting this. But what I haven't seen you do is be angry.”
And I'm like, “Well, I'm not angry.”
“Well then, why were you sad?”
And, you know, again, I didn't wanna tell her, I didn't want her to know why I was sad.
And she goes, “Why were you sad?”
And then I finally told her. “I thought I wasn't wanted.”
And she was like, “There's your anger.”
Because she knew that anger was such an important part of grief, that we were far enough into our relationship that she really had to push me. She jokes about having to give me a kick to face why I was sad and to just get it out there, so that I could actually get past this grief stage.
So you know, I went off. She remembers how my bottom lip kind of stuck out a little bit during that conversation. And so I went off and I moped and I did some more processing. I'm like, Okay. Then I forget what it was that triggered me, but I figured out what I had to do. So I got a piece of paper out and I wrote out a forgiveness note. And I had three bullets on it (of course). I said:
I forgave society for not supporting unwed mothers.
I forgave my parents for not understanding my emotional needs surrounding my adoption.
And I forgave Karen for letting me go.
But here's what's funny. So I wrote out this note and I put it in my purse for the next time I would see her. And the morning that I was gonna see her, the dog got into my purse, because there was gum in the side pocket. And the dog likes gum, right? But the dog ate my note!! That I was supposed to read to my birth mom (and I'm not joking). So I had to rewrite the note. But those dogs, anyway.
So I went to her house that night (and this was like eight months into our reunion). And I got out my piece of paper and I read her my forgiveness note. And then I ripped it up into tiny pieces and I threw it away. It was really a pivotal moment in my healing.
It was like: I accept the loss. I felt the anger. And then I forgave. And it was like this freeing of my spirit. It was so freeing and healing. And, you know, I talk about how I have a difficult time crying, right? After I went through my forgiveness talk— And she was like, “Are you sure? Are you really sure you're— Are you just going through the motions or do you really forgive?” I mean, she didn't cut me any slack, the darn middle school guidance counselor.
Anyway, we're talking about Christmas and what we were gonna do for Christmas. And she says to me, (because, remember I found her on Easter, the previous Easter). She says to me, “I got my Christmas present on Easter.” And I cried. I finally cried in front of her. Because I just don't cry in public, so that was a big pivotal moment.
So anyway, reaction?
Haley Radke: What? I'm crying again. What do you want? [laughs] Oh my gosh.
Marni Hall: Yeah. Oh, wait. One more thing on these “aha”— One more “aha” moment, and then I'll give you a chance to talk, Miss. I told you, I'll talk forever.
Because Adoption Network Cleveland started a private Facebook page for all these people from Ohio that all of a sudden are going into this reunion. And so I learned a lot from what people were writing, and someone had written this beautiful thing. It just really resonated with me:
“We go and we go searching, trying to find birth family, but the beautiful thing was not just finding birth family, but I found myself. And in finding myself, I discovered that the person that I was looking for and needed to be was always, was already there. And that the person I was looking for, and wanted to be was the person I already was. I just had to give myself permission to accept it.”
When one of my fellow adoptees from Ohio had written that, I saved it and I wrote it down. Because it just really resonated with me that I was this overachiever. I just needed people to like me and I was looking for who I wanted to be. I'm like, I already was. I already was the person I wanted to be. And that's kind of where I feel like I'm just really grounded through this whole process.
Haley Radke: That's amazing to come from this place of trying to always be fake happy, I mean…to having all of these emotions. And then to come to a place of being grounded. Oh...wow.
Marni Hall: Yeah.
Haley Radke: And this is just two years, right?
Marni Hall: Two years. And I would say it took a year. Most of this happened during the first year. And now, we're just living. We're celebrating the gift, and we have our play dates. And we drink wine together.
Haley Radke: So this is— You've come to your new normal now. This is kind of everything settled? And…
Marni Hall: I think… Yeah.
Haley Radke: Okay. Now I just wanna ask you about— You were talking a little bit, you mentioned that Karen said to you, “Well, you don't have to tell everything to your adoptive mother....”
Marni Hall: At once.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Right. Right before you met Karen. And can we just touch on that now? How have you told your family about your reunion? How does that look for you and what are the feelings that you are kind of thinking about when you think of that?
Marni Hall: I was scared to death to tell. My dad's passed, but I was scared to death to tell my mom the details. And I think that's one of the reasons I was religious about going to the support meetings every month, because that was one of the main topics I would bring up. And people would share their stories, and I got a lot of good advice for how to go about this.
So the way I approached it is, I took it very slow. For the first time (when she was in town for my daughter's graduation), I just said, “Hey, this, getting this birth certificate has really increased my curiosity. And with that comes some guilt for being curious.” And she kind of looked at me and didn't really ask any questions, and we just left it at that.
And then the following August, I moved my daughter into college. And my mom met us and I brought it up again. This time I said, “Hey, you know, I've been going to some support meetings and reading some books. And I realize I had a loss.” And she's, “Because you didn't know your history.” And I'm like, “Yeah.”
So she was starting to get a little bit. So I just kind of was spoon feeding it? And then the following March, I went to the— Ohio had an adoption conference one year after they opened the records. And I felt like, If I'm going to this conference, I need to tell my mom more. And I called her up (and you might find this surprising), but I prepped my conversation with my mother using some bullet points.
Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Did you have it in front of you?
Marni Hall: I did. [laughs] I said to my mom, “This is difficult…”
Haley Radke: I'm sorry. I didn't expect you to say yes to that. Okay.
Marni Hall: Yeah. So I said to my mom, “I have a difficult conversation to have with you. So I've made some talking points so that I don't forget anything. And so…” (I am not kidding.)
Haley Radke: Uh, I believe you. I believe you 100%.
Marni Hall: So I said to her, “So I'm going to this adoption conference, and I just feel like I needed to be there. I've learned a lot about myself. It's just been….”
I just made it about me and my growth. It wasn't about my mom, it was about me and how going through this process that I had grown and it's just how good it's been for me. So then–-and just learning my story.
And she goes, “Well, I'm interested in your story.” I was like, “Gasp! Okay.” So that was really exciting for me. She was interested in my birth story. So I shared it with her and then I told her, “And by the way, her name's Karen and we have met.” And she's, “Oh.” And that was it.
So she wasn't upset. And I was like, Whew. I felt like I wasn't having an affair anymore, (because that first nine months, I was having an affair). So that was exciting. And then the following May, I went to go pick up my daughter from college. (She goes to school about seven, eight hours away from me—closer to where my mom lives.) And I shared more of the story with my mom.
I shared pictures with her. I said, “Would you like to see where I get my looks from?” And she goes, “Yes.” So I shared some pictures with her, and she was great with it. And that was good. And then in October, she came into town. (She comes into town one week a year.) And I said to her, “So, Karen wants to know if you would like to meet her. Because she would like to thank you in person.”
And my mom thought about it a second, and she goes, “Sure, that sounds great.” Oh my gosh, she said yes. And so that Saturday, we met for brunch. This was a beautiful… (I just couldn't. It's so surreal to me.) So Karen sat—(we were in a booth), and Karen sat down first. I sat across from Karen. My mom sat down last, and she chose to sit next to Karen. And I thought that it was wonderful that she chose to sit next to Karen, versus me.
So after we ordered, Karen had her prepared speech from my mom. And it's, you know, “I just wanna thank you for raising Marni, because you've done such a good job.” It's, you know, “It makes me feel so good that she's everything I would want her to be.” And then my mom says to Karen, “Well, I guess I have some thank yous as well. Because of the choice you made, I have a daughter.”
So she thanked Karen for giving her a daughter. And that was just— I call that one of my mountain top moments, for the two of them to have that conversation and to be across the table from them. So it was really beautiful.
So now I'm at the point where, So they've met… Oh! So then we had a group picture taken together, which was a keepsake for me. And I sent it to both of them on a group text. So now each of them has each other's phone numbers, right? And they both graduated from the same university (that's in Columbus, Ohio; which is Ohio State). And so during Ohio State football games, they were texting back and forth about the game. And that was a little weird, but I would've never imagined that happening when this all started.
So I'm just so thankful that they've met and they've texted each other. And one of the biggest gifts of this whole thing is finding Karen, and finding my roots has brought me closer to my mother. And what a gift. And I shared that on one of the Facebook pages that I'm on and someone said, “That's not uncommon. Because until you have that piece inside of you healed, you're not really able to fully engage in your other relationships.”
So I celebrate that gift every day, that I'm now closer to my mother because of meeting my birth mother. So I'm so thankful for that. So thankful. A lot of the focus with adoption reform these days is keeping that child with the birth family, either with kinship or somehow providing support to the parents. So that you could keep the family together.
And I'm all for that. But when I— (and I try not to have)... Our rule number two is: No what ifs. But sometimes I sneak into those what ifs and I'm like, If Karen had not made the decision she made, I would've not gone to the family that raised me. And I would not have experienced all the things that I experienced growing up. And all the opportunities, and the leadership opportunities, and the career I had, and the school I went to. And my husband I met, and my three wonderful children.
I wouldn't have changed— I don't wanna change that. I love my life. So sometimes I struggle with the whole, “You gotta keep the kid with the parent,” because if Karen had done that, what would've my life looked like? I wouldn't have wanted to change it. So I struggle with that.
Haley Radke: Yeah. I can empathize with that so much, because I often think about, Who would I be had I been kept? And it's a whole different life, right? A whole different person. Is that a whole different personality, you know? Yeah.
Marni Hall: Yeah. So I kind of feel like there's a higher power that set me on this journey that I've had, that brought me back to Karen. And now we have, you know, the rest of our lives together. So two recent developments since I volunteered to be on your show— Karen found a journal from when she was in the home for unwed mothers (recently).
She kept a— She wrote every day that she was in there, and including a couple days after I was born. She wrote the day after I was born; she shared it with me. I want to read to you what she wrote the day after I was born. This is the sixties, so they weren't allowed to hold us (in most scenarios).
So she talked about how her parents came to visit her, and then she goes,
“After they left, I went down to the nursery to see my little girl. One of the nurses went down with me. She was so nice. I was really glad I saw her, if just for the satisfaction of knowing she was all right. She was so pretty. It wasn't too hard to tell she was mine. She had my mouth and ears, but she had Bud's little nose. I knew she would. She had long little fingers and long thin nails (not the short ones babies usually have). She had lots of hair, which I never had. It was not real light blonde though. I watched her about 15 minutes and went back to my room. I was so excited. Someone will be so happy with her.”
I mean, we already have this very grounded, solid, trusting reunion. But to receive these words, 50 years after I was born, it was such a gift. I'm so thankful that she found this and shared it with me. How many people get to see a journal of their birth mother the day after they were born?
So anyway, that's that. And then we'll have to catch up later, because remember that my birth father doesn't know about me. And I recently found a picture of him on the internet, and that's who I get my looks from. And I finally got to the point in my reunion that I'm ready to reach out to him. I feel like it's unfair to him to make the decision for him. I feel like he should have the information and that he should be able to choose what he does with it, whether it's to get to know me or to do nothing. I think I'm okay with either way, because I've already done this processing.
So Karen has drafted a letter and she shared it with me. And we're sitting on it right now so that we can kind of pick it up and look at it and, “Okay, if he's reading this cold, is he gonna get it?” And then we can kind of finetune it, get some more feedback on it. So that's exciting.
Haley Radke: Oh my gosh.
Marni Hall: So he does not live five miles away. He lives in Arizona, and I'm in Ohio.
Haley Radke: And so how old would he be? Early seventies?
Marni Hall: 70? 73? And I don't think he's had any children. And Karen didn't have any children after me, so I have no bio siblings. So that's a lot. Stay tuned!
Haley Radke: Goodness.
Marni Hall: But I'm ready. It's like I sat on this— Karen has not held me back at all from this. From day one, she was like, “Here's a picture of Bud and I. He was a very nice guy. I just wasn't gonna marry him.” She told me every—as much as she knew. She goes, “If you wanna reach out to him, I'm not gonna hold you back. I know he'll be mad, but that's okay.”
I said I wasn't ready to make that decision. But once I kinda did all this processing, and then saw this picture of him, I'm like, Okay, I'm ready. He needs to know, he needs to have the choice. It's not fair to make the decision for him.
Haley Radke: Mhmm. And I don't know how you feel, but there's just like this one extra piece when you look so much like someone. I don't know. There's something about that. I've had so many people tell me lately how much I look like my dad. And I don't know, there's something extra special about that.
I always thought that, I'm like, Well, I must look like my birth mother. You know, when I met her and stuff, and I was trying to pick out all these things that were similar. But I mean, when I look at the pictures now, I'm like, Well, no, we don't actually look that similar. So I really look like my dad's side, too.
Marni Hall: Yeah. My oldest daughter looked identical to Karen, when Karen was in college. They looked like twins.
Haley Radke: Wow.
Marni Hall: But I look like my birth dad.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Marni Hall: Yeah. So it's fun.
Haley Radke: Wow. Well, stay tuned. Right?
Marni Hall: Whew! Stay tuned.
Haley Radke: Oh, well thank you so much, Marni. Are you okay to go to recommended resources?
Marni Hall: Yes.
Haley Radke: Okay.
Marni Hall: I've finished all of my bullet points on my notes here.
Haley Radke: Okay. Well, I was really actually surprised to hear you talk about knowing Erica, because my recommended resource today is something that Erica has started. So I'm talking about Erica Curry Van Ee. And she and her birth mother Maret were in the special live episode I did (Season 2, episode 7), of recordings from the Indiana Adoptee Network Conference that I attended.
So I got to meet Erica in person and Maret. And she told me that she started this thing (I don’t know what to call it), called the Legitimacy Movement. And so right now you can go and find her Facebook page (called the Legitimacy Movement), and I'll put links to that in the show notes. And I just asked her to tell me a little bit more about it. So this is the note that she sent me. She is gonna use this platform to do her adoption advocacy work.
And here's the quote from her:
“I originally named it the Legitimacy Movement because on my original birth certificate, that one little box that said legitimate was marked ‘No.’ So on the profile picture of Legitimate [of her Facebook page], you can see that I crossed it out and I changed it to a ‘Yes.’ I believe that part of the issue around original birth certificate access is the government's continued belief that we adoptees are illegitimate. My hope is to show them that the laws of the land at this time were based on archaic, outdated thinking. And that if the government sees us as legitimate, then a natural extension of that is to give us our basic human right of our original birth certificate.”
And she has got some really exciting plans that I don't want to spoil; that I really want everyone to go follow her Facebook page. And so you will be among the first to know the things that she's going to be doing. Now, she has such a passion for adoption reform. It's really incredible. And I shared in that special episode that I got to see her original birth certificate and hold it in my hands.
And that was just…that was a mountain top moment for me. Honestly, Marni, it really was. And so I'm so excited to see Erica's work here, and if you could all go and support her in that way, that would be fantastic.
Okay. So what did you want to recommend to us, Marni?
Marni Hall: Well, I sent the link to the blog about our guiding principles that Karen and I wrote. And I just think it's really helpful to establish boundaries in your reunion relationship, and what works for you. And as you have different issues thrown at you, when you have these communication guidelines (guiding principles), it just helps you work through those difficult conversations.
Haley Radke: I so agree with you. And, you know, you were talking about them and we're kind of laughing and I was like, “Oh, my therapist gave us rules, too.” But I really, I do believe that having something to go to, to check and see, Is this okay? Should we be doing this? It's really a powerful thing.
Marni Hall: Yeah. And then the blog that I had read, that really hit home for me– It was: “My What Ifs are Not About You.” And I have the link that I sent you for that as well. It just really hit home, about what adoptive parents, what conversations they need to be having with their adoptees. They need to initiate it.
Haley Radke: That's right. And you know, when you were talking about that, I totally agree that it's too scary for us to bring up. It really is. And especially when you're a child, often you don't even know you're having these feelings, you know?
You might not be able to name them. You might not know where some of these, I don't know… The fantasies that we have. You know?
Marni Hall: Right.
Haley Radke: And I remember when you were talking about going to the support group for the first time and hearing all these people say these things and you thought, Huh. I thought I was the only one that thought that.
So when adoptive parents are able to say, “You know, actually it's really normal for adoptees to think about their birth parents.” Or any of those things to help normalize those things that often we adoptees think are so bizarre. And that no one else is doing.
Marni Hall: Right.
Haley Radke: I agree with you. I think that's such a healthy thing to open up that conversation. Yeah. Lost Daughters has so many great articles. Okay. I will definitely link to both of those blog posts. Thank you, Marni.
And if anyone has questions for you, where can they find you?
Marni Hall: Well, I am on Facebook and my Facebook name is Marni Metzler Hall. I don't talk about my adoption journey (the details) on my public page, but you can message me about it. I do that out of respect of privacy for both moms.
Haley Radke: Absolutely.
Marni Hall: I share those conversations for the private boards.
Haley Radke: Well, and speaking of that, you are actually one of my Patreon supporters, so…
Marni Hall: That's right.
Haley Radke: Thank you so much. That means so much to me. And so you're actually in my Facebook group, so we have lots of those conversations in there.
Marni Hall: Yeah. I find those private message boards (like your Facebook page) so valuable for having conversations with people who get it.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Especially if there's not a support group near you. Right, yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Marni Hall: You're welcome.
Haley Radke: If you want to join my secret Facebook group for adoptees only, you can partner with me to support my podcast (just like Marni is). Thank you, Marni.
I take monthly pledges through the crowdfunding website called Patreon, and your monthly support allows me to keep producing podcasts like this for you. You can check out the details for that at adopteeson.com/partner. And once you're signed up, I'll add you to the secret group right away.
I gave away two copies of You Don't Look Adopted in the last two weeks. It's my favorite adoptee memoir. Do you want an autographed copy, too? Leave me a review in iTunes or share the show on social media and make sure to let adoptees know it's a must listen.
Come to adopteeson.com/contest and tell me how you shared the show and I will enter you to win one of those five copies I'm giving away. If you're in the U.S., you'll get an autographed copy sent straight from the author, who is my dear friend Anne Heffron. And if you're outside of the U.S., I'll send you an e-copy and maybe I can convince Anne to send you a personalized note.
Thank you for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.
