46 Kristen - Acting Adopted

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/46

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 7, Kristen. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I welcome Kristen Garaffo to share her story. Kristen discovered adoption had a deeper impact on her life than she originally realized.

She shares some incredible moments of clarity she's had along the way, and about the impact acting, singing and yoga have had on her healing journey. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and, as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.com Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Kristen Garaffo. Welcome!

Kristen Garaffo: Hey. I'm so excited.

Haley Radke: Did I get [00:01:00] it? Did I get it right?

Kristen Garaffo: You did. You totally got it right.

Haley Radke: Oh, Kristen, I'm so happy to have you here. We actually met at the Indiana Adoptee Network conference in person. And we were in a little support group together where I said some very inappropriate things to an adoptive parent. I'll never forget that. I'm not going to share that here, but that is my shame I have carried for a while.

Anyway, that's an aside, but I am glad I got to meet you in person. So that was really fun. And I'd love it if you would just start off by sharing your story with us.

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. So I am an international adoptee. I was born in Asunción, Paraguay. I was adopted when I was six months old. Growing up, I never really thought [00:02:00] a ton about my adoption.

It's something that I've always known. There was never a time I didn't know. And I was busy as a kid. I did theater. I sang in choir and I was really into it. Really into it. I went to college, I have a musical theater degree. And that had been my focus. That has been my focus, I would say for a majority of my life. Honestly, like I had blinders on, I wanted to be on Broadway.

And I had a ton of support doing all of those things. And it wasn't until I was in college I was not getting cast in the shows at school. And I had a professor who told me that I could write my own stuff. If I was unhappy not performing, I should just create my own performance [00:03:00] opportunities.

And she said, It needs to be something that is uniquely you, like what makes you uniquely you? And at the time I was like, Well, I'm adopted. I guess I could write about that. And that opened a whole world of stuff, a world of things. And I was really into writing a piece that I didn't even really know what it was at the time.

And I ended up getting busy with school so it fell to the back burner. And this piece has continued to flow in and out of my life every year since. Since 2008 was when I had this idea and when I really became aware of all of my just adoption stuff. And then here I am.

Haley Radke: What do you mean by all your adoption stuff?

Kristen Garaffo: So growing up not thinking about adoption at all. Not really. It was just something that wasn't on my mind. I would say [00:04:00] that my stuff is just thinking about it and spending time with this part of my life and just like thoughts of my birth mother, thoughts of Paraguay, thoughts of what would life have been like, all of those things.

Yeah, and also just learning in college, learning about different adoption communities and that they were even a thing because I grew up not knowing that there are adoption support groups and communities of people. Yeah, so it was like a whole world opened up to me

Haley Radke: So have you ever gone back to Paraguay?

Kristen Garaffo: I have not. No. I have not.

Haley Radke: And what about the culture and those kind of things? Were you exposed to that by your adoptive parents?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, a little bit. So I remember in my room growing up, I had some art on the wall that was from Paraguay and I had certain, [00:05:00] I don't even know what you call them, like they were all art things.

I think my parents went to a market when they were there and they just bought little souvenir-type things. And that kind of went with what I've always known, there were things on the wall there. I was surrounded by these things. Honestly, I don't really know a ton about the culture and the country.

And that has been sad for me. Paraguay is a pretty small country in the middle of South America. It's landlocked. When I've looked up information about it it's limited. And that is something that I want to learn more about. Definitely, just like the culture in the country, and I do want to go back one day very soon.

Haley Radke: What did realizing there was some “adoption stuff” mean to you for next steps? Like you talked about you wrote this thing, but you put it to the side.

Kristen Garaffo: The play that [00:06:00] I was writing for the first couple of years, really I didn't know what it was, I just knew that there would be little instances that happened every once in a while that would make me feel very specific things like hurt or sadness or just like numb feelings.

And when those experiences would happen, I would write about them and they would happen maybe once or twice a year. And I ended up having a bunch of really random scenes that didn't necessarily go together, but I knew I had something and I really think I came face to face with the hurt and trauma and my shadow in a yoga class.

Actually, I [00:07:00] was in a yoga class, really one of my first ever yoga classes that I ever took. And we went into a pose called half pigeon pose, which is a deep hip opener. And I ended up crying a lot in the middle of this yoga class on my mat.

And at the time I had recently graduated from college. I was so stressed out. I was exhausted. College was really crazy for me. And it was like all of this emotion came out of me and looking back at that moment, I think it went beyond just the exhaustion and the stress of being a college graduate. I really think I tapped into something deeper, which I believe is my primal wound.

Haley Radke: You said the hurt and trauma and shadow. Can you talk about that?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. Shadow. So I'm a yoga teacher and a life [00:08:00] coach, and I think a lot about light and shadow within ourselves. I think that I am a pretty up person, like my essence is joy. And I feel confident saying that. I think maybe at one point I would be not owning that part of myself, but I do think that my natural energy is light and buoyant and joyful.

And at the same time, there is this deep shadow I call a shadow. Which is the hurt and the pain of my adoption. And it is really scary to go to those places. And at the same time, it's a part of who I am, and I think about valuing the light and the dark within myself and within all of us.

Like I value that shadow even though it's hard and scary and I [00:09:00] feel so many complex things about being adopted and what that means to be adopted and I'm still navigating all of my feelings.

Haley Radke: So have you looked into why you were available for adoption?

Kristen Garaffo: The story that I've been told is that my birth mother was 19. She already had a little girl, so I have a birth sister who's three years older than I was. And the story was just that she couldn't take care of me. And that it was, you know, her life. I think she was cleaning houses. Already having a three year old, having another one would just be too much.

Haley Radke: So when you know that, what are you believing about yourself?

Kristen Garaffo: An initial thought is like, Why? And also at the same time, like I get it. I get it, like two kids is [00:10:00] more than one. I don't even really know if I've taken the time to sit with that. What does that actually feel like?

Haley Radke: Feelings are so fun, aren't they? You had this moment on the yoga mat of feelings and we're opened up to thinking about maybe there's more to this adoption thing. You've all these scenes written, but they're disjointed. Let's go back to that.

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. Yeah. And I would love to talk about an experience that I had that made me take my place seriously. I think before it was just a thing that I was doing that was maybe going to be something but I didn't really know. And it wasn't until I took a trip to Costa Rica. I traveled to Costa Rica for a yoga leadership retreat and it was the prerequisite to my life coach [00:11:00] certification and I was going to do yoga and to go.

It wasn't really a retreat 'cause we were doing really deep soul work and we were there for two weeks. And what I was not expecting was be being in Central America, even though it wasn't South America, had a huge impact on me. And my cells. When I try to explain what it was like, I can explain it as feelings in my body from immediately getting off of the plane and feeling the hot air and seeing the palm trees and just being in a place that is closer to the equator.

I started getting teary eyed. My heart started pounding and I felt like I [00:12:00] was vibrating and I was like, What is happening? This is crazy. And not thinking about adoption at all. And I just felt, I felt feelings. I felt feelings and I didn't know where they were coming from.

And I had another moment. I think it was the second day that I was there at the retreat center. So our morning practice was silent. So we had silent breakfast and we could journal, we could meditate, we could do whatever we wanted to do before breakfast and before the first session of the day at this leadership retreat.

And I woke up and went into the kitchen and at this retreat center everything was open so we could see the jungle and there were monkeys and there were lots and lots of sounds even though we were being silent. And there were two women who worked at the retreat center [00:13:00] who were making us breakfast and the silent breakfast didn't apply to them.

So they were speaking Spanish to one another as they were cutting up fruit. They were cutting up fruit. And I remember sitting and looking out into the jungle and hearing all of these monkeys and nature sounds and hearing these two women speaking Spanish to one another chopping fruit and hearing the knife on the table and just kitchen sounds. And I started weeping and it was another moment of sensory overload and, again, I didn't know why I was feeling all of this.

And I was just sitting at this kitchen table crying. And it wasn't until I talked to my teacher and I was [00:14:00] like, I don't know why I'm feeling so emotional for no reason. And she said, Well, you don't know yet. And when I actually figured out why I was feeling all of this stuff is we ended up doing a meditation on being in the womb.

And I had never thought about that. I had never thought about my time in the womb. And I was like, Oh. Oh, okay. It's this. This is it. And coming back to the play, like why, and also just like life, all of it came together and I realized that my story and this part of my life is so important and is part of who I am.

And also, I think of myself as a storyteller and as an actor, that's also a part of who I am. And how I started on my own healing journey with my adoption was, actually, like the end of that retreat. I was like, I am writing this play. I'm writing it. I am getting resources to help me write this play [00:15:00] and I am doing it.

And I did.

Haley Radke: You're telling that story about the women cutting fruit and I have goosebumps. Like something about it was familiar to you.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes, and I know that now. At the time I didn't understand, but now I can look back at it and, yeah, it's like an unconscious memory. It's like a knowing without knowing but knowing. It's so confusing, but I know you know what I mean.

Haley Radke: Preverbal memories.

Kristen Garaffo: Exactly. Yeah, so after my Costa Rica trip, I decided to really buckle down and write this piece. So I ended up falling down a Google rabbit hole, just like googling one-woman shows. And I ended up finding a woman named Tanya Taylor Rubinstein. And Tanya Taylor Rubinstein is in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

And she [00:16:00] is a coach. She's a healer. She helps people write and tell their stories. And she had a solo show bootcamp. And I found this. Again, I didn't know this was a thing, but I was like, Holy moly, I have to hire this woman. So I ended up calling her and I flew to Santa Fe, New Mexico. I spent a couple of days with Tanya and that was the first time where I was able to take all of these scenes that I had written and I actually tossed them out the window, since I had been in Santa Fe and we started over, and it was really amazing because we didn't even write. I don't remember, I think it was four days, it was three or four days that I was there, and I didn't write at all, I was on my feet and storytelling the whole time.

Tanya would ask questions and she would guide me through and [00:17:00] I just started telling stories about my life. And we recorded everything so I ended up going home with hours of content of me just sharing stories. And once I got home, I was able to transcribe some of those stories and put them together with a beginning, a middle and an end. And ultimately what the play has turned into.

It's called Hi, My Name is Kristen. And it is my story from birth to my early twenties, like right after college. And it is my life as a series of auditions. And, yeah, it explores my life as a performer who is also adopted. It explores my feelings with rejection, with acceptance, with my strong desire to [00:18:00] please as a performer. And also as an adoptee, and all of those things are heightened because of my adoption. And that's the piece.

Haley Radke: That's amazing. And I'm just thinking about adoptees as performers, can you talk a little bit more about that?

Kristen Garaffo: I was actually inspired. What brought the play together for me was reading The Primal Wound for the first time.

And honestly, as I was reading it, we all know that's a pretty tough read. It's a pretty tough read. And as I was reading it, I was like, I don't really know if this applies to me. Like I don't know, but I kept reading and until I got to a point and it was a small little paragraph and it said something like, if your child isn't showing, [00:19:00] anger, loneliness, or I'm not sure exactly what it said, but it's the opposite, like if your kid is perfect and follows the rules and in general seems very happy and eager to please, the wound is still there. It's just showing up in a different way. And it's an unconscious fear of being rejected.

And I read that and my heart stopped and I was like, I get it. I was like, that's me. That's me. And just thinking about adoptees as performers, it's wanting to please, it's wanting to be perfect. It's wanting to not upset. It's wanting to not offend because we don't want to be rejected again.

Haley Radke: It was an interesting career path that you chose. Always having to audition. I know you've shifted [00:20:00]

Kristen Garaffo: I didn't pick it. I remember, especially growing up, I love to sing. I love to sing and the first musical that I was ever in was Snow White and the Seven Dwarves in fourth grade. And that was it. I did it and I was like, Done, I'm doing this forever. I loved it so much.

And as I got older, and this is what happens in the play, it gets more serious and I put so much pressure on myself to do well and to succeed. And I think it was not only me but hearing adults say, You're so talented. You're so great. We love you and all of that, and hearing that and being like, Yes, I need that. I need that to be worthy.

This is totally random, but I played Annie [00:21:00] in eighth grade. I totally didn't put the two and two together until I was writing my piece, until I was writing Hi, My Name is Kristen. I played Annie in eighth grade, and I don't know, it's so silly.

Haley Radke: I don't know. I said what a career you chose, or whatever, you just loved it. That's who you are and you want to sing and perform. And so what has that led you to? Tell me more about that.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes. I live outside of Washington D.C. And I've been a professional actor here in D.C. since 2010-ish. And it's interesting because living the actor lifestyle is hard. It's hard because you have to audition all of the time. There is no real job security. It's going from show to show. And honestly as I have lived that life, but also at the same time I was teaching yoga, I got my life coach certification and the [00:22:00] more that I leaned into that world and taking care of my body, taking care of my heart, I realized that the actor lifestyle is hard and maybe not for me, at least at this point in my life.

And at the same time, that doesn't take away my love of performing, my love of storytelling, my love of singing and music. And what it means to me now is I am still performing, I'm still creating music, just on my own terms. I don't think I ever want to audition again. I just want to be empowered to create my own stuff.

Haley Radke: Yes. I had written down when you very first said that one of your teachers said, Create your own opportunities. And so you've written your one-woman show for you. For you to [00:23:00] perform. Can we talk a little bit about plays, theater and what it's like for an audience member to experience these things?

So when I was in Indiana with you, Brian Stanton performed Blank and I basically was dead because it was so amazing. I went to the C.U.B. retreat, the Concerned United Birthparents Retreat. And they had a performance, it was a reading of Lord of the Underworld's Home for Unwed Mothers by Louisa Hill.

I sat through both of those performances and I was riveted and I cried and I felt all of the empathy for the characters and experienced this crazy ride of emotions, the sadness and anger, and I [00:24:00] shared with a couple of my friends who missed out. They didn't come to the play.

They were doing something else. And I was like, it was so powerful. I can't believe you missed it. And they didn't get why it was so important, and I don't know how to put that into words. What it's like to experience that with a room full of other audience members who are going on the same ride as you, and do you have words for that?

What does that mean for you?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah and before I jump in, I also want to share with you that I went to the conference in Indiana to see Brian's play. I had just met Ridghaus, who I know you've talked to. Like two weeks before that conference at another conference, he was like, You should come see this show.

Because he knew I had written a play. And I was like, Okay. I booked a ticket and it was so [00:25:00] incredible. It was so huge for me because my play has been just in my brain for a really long time. And to actually see Brian perform his piece was validation for me that it's possible and seeing it was so powerful because his piece was so powerful and it empowered me to keep going with my play.

I think that storytelling is magic. I think stories touch us in a way that is different than hearing a talk. I'm touching my heart right now. I think stories touch us in a way that's different. And I think specifically with theater and being in a room with other people and having other real life human beings in front of you telling a story that [00:26:00] that kind of intimacy is rare.

I think now with technology and with other mediums, like film and TV, and not that there's anything wrong with film or TV, I love film and TV, but I think that theater in particular is its own art form and is beautiful and intimate. And I also know as a performer that, again, it's magic, and I cry.

The last show that I was in was three years ago. And it's a part of me being able to tell my story in my way. My way as an actor, as a musician, as a singer. Saying my own words, telling my own [00:27:00] story in front of a group of people in the present moment is so amazing. It's so amazing. And I'm just so honored and excited to share my piece.

And I believe it's an honor to be in a space with other human beings in real time and hearing a story, and being able to sit and watch. And I also think that because I've been performing for so long, I know what it takes to put on a play or a musical, and it takes a village. It takes a village.

There's a whole team of people who are working to make it happen. And I think that's pretty special.

Haley Radke: Have you seen the one I mentioned? Lord of the Underworld's Home for Unwed Mothers.

Kristen Garaffo: Oh, I've never seen that one.

Haley Radke: Okay, so it's actually not written by an adoptee or a birth mother. It's written by the playwright Louisa Hill. And I actually was messaging with her because I was telling her how incredible I [00:28:00] thought it was. And I was like, Are you an adoptee? And she said, No, but I have a few friends who are adopted and I read the Primal Wound and some other books about adoption. Because she nails it. It's incredible. The first act is all from the birth mother's perspective.

And it's the Baby Scoop Era, where they sent the mothers away to a home and they had no choice. They had to give their babies away and when they hesitate and they want to keep the baby they're like, Okay, here's your bill. So their hands are tied basically. And then the second half is the adoptee perspective.

So during the first act, there were two older ladies sitting next to me and they were birth mothers and the one would nudge the other one: That's what they said to me! And they, when they're experiencing the unwed mother's home, they were just so moved. And I [00:29:00] was too, right?

There is something magic, as you say, about being in person and experiencing it together. What other words can you say about that?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, and you can see and hear your story and someone else's story. And I think that is also magic. Because that means you were not alone. We're not alone. And who doesn't need that reminder?

Haley Radke: Yeah. That's a big part of why I created the podcast, this platform for people to share their stories. Exactly, so that people can listen and think, Oh my goodness, I'm not the only one who has weird and crazy thoughts that I've never said out loud before.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes. Yes. Totally. I think writing my play has been immensely healing. Telling my story has been [00:30:00] really healing, because I think, like what you just said, it's like having these thoughts that we've never really said out loud. I think there is power in owning our stories.

There is power in being able to speak these things out loud. And, my time with Tanya in Santa Fe was hugely healing. And it was the first time. We did some crazy stuff. Talking about the primal wound, I turned the wound into a character. And it was like, what does the wound sound like? What does the wound say? How does the wound move? What does it look like? And being able to embody that was crazy and amazing and scary and all of these things.

Using your body and using your voice and telling your story is healing is super healing. My healing continues as I share this piece with more [00:31:00] and more people, which is happening. And, you know, my piece has taken its time to be birthed out into the world and I think there was a time where I thought that it was happening too slowly, but now I understand why it's taken this long, because I think if I had performed it when I had finished writing it, that I just wouldn't have been ready emotionally to share and to speak my story.

So I've taken my time, and other things that I have done there is an adult adoptee support group that I go to. I should say once a month, I don't go once a month though. But knowing that it's there, and going to support group therapy is good. Also, I have a life coach.

I would consider my yoga practice as part of my healing. I am also a CrossFit athlete. Really moving my body, I think, [00:32:00] is part of it. Because our emotions and our thoughts can get stuck in our bodies, I believe, and I think that our trauma lives in our muscles, it lives in our bones, and we can only talk so much about it and stay in our brains.

Moving and being in our bodies touches on our wounds in a different way than just talking about it. Not to say that talking about it isn't helpful as well because, holy moly, that's super valuable to be able to voice these thoughts that we may be afraid to say out loud, but then adding a movement practice into it, at least in my own experience, it's been huge for me.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. We have been talking about how creativity and different forms in visual arts and music and in all of these different pieces helps us to express the nonverbal, right? And so movement is just another layer of that.

Kristen Garaffo: Totally.

Haley Radke: So well [00:33:00] said. Thank you. Okay. So for recommended resources, as you said, you are a musician as well, so you have a couple of songs up on, I found them on YouTube, on Spotify, and where else can we find them?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, I think they're YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, as well. I have one song out called “I Am” and it was written for meditation and it's positive affirmations and you can stream that on Spotify and iTunes. And then I have a forgiveness meditation called “Ho'oponopono.” It is a Hawaiian forgiveness practice and that is on YouTube.

There's more music to come. So songwriting is new for me and I am excited to just dig more into that. And there's also original music in my play Hi, My Name is Kristen. So I have my [00:34:00] ukulele, the ukulele makes an entrance in the show. Singing is, music is in my heart.

Haley Radke: It's so beautiful and I keep saying this word, but it's so moving as well. And your one-woman show. So tell us, are we able to see this, like what's happening?

Kristen Garaffo: Yes, there's a reading of Hi, My Name is Kristen happening on November 5th at 5:30 at a place called Rhizome DC.

It's a community art space in the Takoma neighborhood of Washington D.C. and tickets are free. So that reading is happening very soon and I want to take this show where it’s needed. I have a goal to perform this piece all over the country, where it's needed. So I'm taking this show on the road. And if you're interested, holler at me.

Haley Radke: It would be a great addition to another Adoptee conference, right? Target market. [00:35:00] So good. Thank you. Okay. And now what did you want to recommend to us?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, Tanya Taylor Rubenstein. If you are interested in telling your story, whether it's a memoir or if you want to create a talk, like a TED Talk, or a one-woman or a one-man show, Tanya will help you out.

She'll help you get your story out into the world. She helped me out and I am so grateful for her. And also, if you have never taken a yoga class or a meditation class, I recommend it. I recommend it. It makes you feel good.

Haley Radke: Wonderful, I will put links to all of those things, to your show and to your recommendation in the show notes so people can find those. And where can we connect with you online, Kristen?

Kristen Garaffo: So I am on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. You can just look up Kristen Garaffo. That's my Instagram handle and on Facebook [00:36:00] as well. And my website, KristenGaraffo.com.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for chatting with me and sharing your story.

Kristen Garaffo: You're so welcome. I'm so happy and grateful to be here. Thank you.

Haley Radke: It's November and that means it's National Adoption Awareness Month. Did you know that this month was supposed to highlight the need for homes for older children in foster care? But instead, in these past few years, it has turned into this heavy month of promoting and celebrating adoption in every form.

So if you're feeling feisty and would like to have some say in the conversation, head over to any social media outlet and share what adoption has meant to you and tell some adoptee truth, because believe me, there is not enough out [00:37:00] there. And there's a ton of hashtags out there. Flip The Script is one great one to follow and join in on.

Alternately, if you are feeling sensitive and like you don't have it in you to read post after post about how amazing adoption is, November is the perfect month for a social media break and some self care, which I am more in that camp for today.

Anyway, this show is brought to you by my incredibly generous Patreon supporters of which there are now, listen to this you guys, 36! Thank you so very much. When I get to 50 supporters, I will be able to hire an editor to help with my workload and my dear husband and my tiny kids will be delighted to have some time back with me again.

So, if you would like to stand with me and these amazing 36 partners that I have, Patreon [00:38:00] is this crowdfunding website that takes monthly pledges and it helps me sustain the podcast. All the details and how to sign up are on adopteeson.com/partner.

Last thing, I always ask you to share the show. My husband just got us a Google home speaker. And did you know, if you say, Google play the podcast Adoptees On, it will. Isn't that cool? Try it out! And if you're at a friend's house and they have a smart speaker, maybe you can show them how it works to play a podcast.

Thanks for listening, friends, and take good care, especially this month. And let me know if you go check out Kristen's one-woman show. I would love to hear how it is. I wish I could go.

Let's talk again next Friday.

45 Gareth - The Magical Realism of Being Adopted

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/45

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 6, Gareth. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today I introduce you to Gareth Price, a magical realism artist from New Zealand. We talk a lot about what being an adoptee feels like and the accompanying anger that Gareth tells me he's dealt with all his life.

Gareth and I chat about his art, his twin sister and his reunion with his birth mother. We wrap up with some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to the podcast, Gareth Price. Welcome Gareth.

Gareth Price: Hello, [00:01:00] Hayley. How's it going?

Haley Radke: It's good. I would love for you to share your story with us.

Gareth Price: I was born in Auckland in December 1971. I'm a twin. I have a twin sister, Glenda. And we were both adopted out immediately after birth.

We were adopted out to my parents, Rose and Craig Price, and we lived in Green Lane which is beside One Tree Hill, which was featured on the Joshua Tree album. There was a song, “One Tree Hill”, that U2 did, and if anybody's familiar with that, that's where I grew up.

I've actually heard this from a few of your podcasters, people don't tend to seem to get that interested in the whole adoption issue until they start approaching maybe 20, maybe? Or maybe early 20s or something? And we were the same. It was actually my sister. Even though we're twins, we're very separate people. I'm quite [00:02:00] a reserved chap, and she was very outward and she left home at 15 and she very much acted out.

She was a very angry person back then. She's quite different now. She's lovely. But, and anyway, she was the one who instigated trying to find our birth mother. And we found her on Anzac Day. Anzac Day is a celebration that we have down here. And I think it was, I can't remember what year, it was when we were about 18 or 19.

And yeah, and so we met her and that was as anybody who's gone through this experience, that was utterly, indescribably wonderful and terrifying. It was just so bizarre. It was the most unbelievable experience. Just her walking up the driveway and you have all these images in your mind of what your birth mother may look like, and then when she comes up, she was a little bit different than I thought and probably a bit shorter maybe and things like that and we [00:03:00] connected very strongly over, it must be said, over alcohol mostly for about the next five or six, seven years, eight years and it was really good and then things started to go another way, shall we say.

And anyway, and about two years after meeting her, she got in contact with our birth father. And we connected with him. And that was really amazing. I'm still in contact with both of them. They don't really contact much with each other.

And our birth mother, she lives just out of central Auckland, just on the waterfront in a suburb called St. Heliers. And the birth father lives just down the country a little bit in a place called Coromandel. And the real kicker for us is the fact that our birth mother is also adopted.

She tried to, I believe, this story is a bit confused for me, I'm not sure, I believe that she tried to find her birth [00:04:00] mother at about 18 as well, but she was unsuccessful because the law was a lot stronger back when she was adopted out with the closed adoptions. She's the end of the line on that side, but on the father's side, we've been extraordinarily lucky. He's got three sisters, so our aunts. It's been a very rich history on that side. Yeah, and all this stuff keeps getting stronger and stronger the older I get. I'm 45 now.

It's unusual because you think that finding your roots fixes everything. And it does change some things, but other things change, but they don't really get fixed as such. Like we've got all these wonderful family connections and things, and that's great, but I still don't go along to family gatherings that much because there's always that intense sadness and anger there and stuff [00:05:00]. Even if it's a really good connection, there's still the feeling that this is what we could have had from day one. And it's tremendously…like the relationship is very good, but it's still very hard, and I don't know if that ever really gets fixed, it just gets, maybe, I don't know, maybe I can just start to think about it differently.

I'm really quite philosophical about all this stuff. My sister is a little bit more forthright about it. And the relationship with the birth mother has been slowly deteriorating for about the last maybe 7 or 8 years to the point where, last year she went to Hawaii during the week of her birthday.

And then this year, I believe tomorrow actually, she's actually off to Hawaii again. And I emailed her just to say bon voyage, and she emailed back saying, Oh yes, I tried to be away for my birthday again this year, but I couldn't quite do it. I know that there's this tradition of adoptees having real trouble with their birthdays. [00:06:00] I'm certainly one of them.

And the trouble that she has is so intensely deep that she, I haven't even talked to her about this. I haven't had any real in-depth conversations with her for quite a long time because it's just too raw. And the fact that I had to stop drinking over a decade ago. Maybe if I took up drinking again, I'd be able to talk to her about it. But it's just it just becomes so intense so quickly. There's massive issues there and so much unsaid stuff with her.

And I've been reading on the amazing private Facebook page that you set up, the other people's similar experiences with mostly their own birth mothers, some birth fathers, but how the relationships deteriorate. And because she's got all the guilt and shame and stuff of giving us up. But she's also got the intense anger that comes from being adopted herself. So she's just a [00:07:00] minefield. And it's really heartbreaking because she's such a beautiful person.

She's really wonderful, but if I didn't text her, I would never hear from her. And that's just heartbreaking, because we had such a good relationship for about the first, sorry, admittedly drunkenly but it was good. They were some of the best times of my life, if I was to be really honest.

It was just going over to her house and sometimes with my twin sister and just getting really wasted and just connecting. But we just don't do that anymore. We haven't done it for a very long time, maybe over a decade. And it's sad, you know.

Haley Radke: Do you think she's coming out of the fog and then realizing it's like a whole other level. Birth mothers already, they have what you said, they have the shame and the regret maybe of relinquishing, but then to realize, Oh, I have all of these other adoptee issues on top of that, and then I gave them to you guys.

Gareth Price: Yeah.

Haley Radke: My gosh. [00:08:00] Oh, I feel so much for her right now.

Gareth Price: Yeah, it is. It is very much like that, and I've been in and out of therapy. And every so often I'll try and contact her and I only ever text her mostly, text and email, and I'll gingerly say maybe we should meet up and stuff and a lot of the time she fobs me off and just says, Oh I can't this weekend, blah, blah, blah.

But I can't help but think if she did start to do any of that sort of therapeutic type work, it would just be so incredibly intense for her. It's a mixture between I really feel for her, but I'm really massively upset at her as well. It's two sides of the same thing, and they're both pretty much as intense as each other. It's really hard.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I'm sure there's this part when you're in reunion, you want to be the [00:09:00] child and they should have the parent role, but if she can't get to that place of the parent role, engaging you in conversation and connecting with you in giving something. Like if you're always the one reaching out and doing the giving. And when i'm saying parent role, I don't mean, Oh they need to step up, that's not what I mean. I don't know how else to say that but

Gareth Price: I know what you mean. And we've never had that kind of relationship. It always had some depth to it earlier on, but then it just became more and more surface, and it feels like it desperately needs to be a surface relationship because if anything else starts to happen, it’s like she starts to pull away and for her to pull away in what's already an incredibly fractured relationship is just, well, I hardly ever see her as it is. But I just know that there is going to come that point, probably quite soon because everybody's getting on, people don't [00:10:00] get any younger, etc. And I hope it doesn't happen. I hope I don't explode or something, but I, it's what I really feel like doing. It's horrible. It's nuts.

Haley Radke: What's your sister's relationship like with her? Are they still in touch?

Gareth Price: I think she sees her probably less than I do.

When my sister got married, it might have been about maybe five or so years after we found our birth mother, she didn't even come to the wedding because, I'm assuming, I never talked to her about it, but I'm assuming because she didn't want to see all the the birth father's side that was going to be there and she couldn't face them.

She's just a survivor, she just does what she can to survive. And I certainly relate to that. I'm very much like that myself. I feel like I'm not living a lot of the time as much as I'm surviving, which I think that's the [00:11:00] mentality that I've always had.

And I think from judging by the books that I've read, like the Nancy Verrier books, The Primal Wound and the Coming Home to Self books and various other books, that is the sense that I get that for a lot of adoptees life does tend to be just below the surface. It's all about survival, and swallowing a lot of things.

And putting up with a lot of things that a lot of other people wouldn't put up with just because it's what you know and because you're desperate not to be rejected again and all this kind of stuff, and it's so true. Every day is like that for me. And that's why the art, I'm getting onto the art now, but that's why the art that I do and the music that I've done, not so much these days, but the art is so very important.

Even though it's not directly about adoption, everything is influenced by it and it's [00:12:00] an expressive outlet and it's pretty much the one thing that I feel in my life that's exclusively me and that I can really say, put out how I feel or how I think about whatever. It’s how I make sense of things.

And if anybody goes to the website, the art on it is reasonably surreal and things, but it's mostly symbolism. And if I was to explain the work to you, it's actually a lot of it's quite straightforward.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so why don't you talk a little bit about that? So you are an artist.

Gareth Price: Yes. Yeah. I'm self-taught. I had a great art teacher at my high school. That was really great. He was wonderful. And then I half-heartedly applied to art school after high school, but I didn't get in. I didn't even get an interview.

And then for most of my twenties, I did music. I played some pop music and rock music and things. And I didn't really come back to the visual arts until my early thirties. Primarily because the woman that I was [00:13:00] seeing at the time, she was just finishing up, she was a bit younger than me and she was finishing up at art school.

And so just by being around her doing art all the time, I just felt drawn back into it. And so after work and weekends and whatever, I just got obsessed with painting. And I painted for about three years. And I painted for about three years and then I got up enough work that I thought I could show a gallery and I got into a gallery and the work started selling and I couldn't believe it.

It was just amazing. And that continued for a few years up until about 2012. And that was the highlight of my achievement. There's a work on the website. It's like a big red volcano. It was actually based on the Chilean volcano that erupted in 2011. And I did the painting in 2012. And it was all about those prophecies that came around in 2012 being the end of the world and the Mayan calendar and all that sort of thing. But that was the highlight of my painting career. It won [00:14:00] awards and stuff down here and it sold for a really good price.

But then after that I got more confidence. And I tried a few different things, and sometimes those things worked, and sometimes they didn't. And yeah, people would say I still really like your work, but I don't really want that in my house. Because it was, I'm paraphrasing, they didn't actually say, the work was darker. And it was a bit more experimental. And so the stage I'm at now is doing stuff that's maybe slightly more straightforward. But if that makes any sense.

Haley Radke: You said it's surreal and it has a lot of symbolism. Can you describe some, because you do a lot of really interesting work. Can you describe a little bit more about that?

Gareth Price: I still love Salvador Dali. He's the greatest for me. I think the reason he resonates so much with me is because my adoptive mum used to bring home prints from the library and just hang them up in [00:15:00] our house. You could just rent them like books. And she brought home lots of Dali ones. And I think because all his paintings are about this inner world, like this kind of surreal inner world. And it's full of symbolism and things as well. And that's where I live as a person.

That's where I escaped to and in terms of the whole adoptive mindset, I suppose. And we had a very dictatorial, quite abusive father growing up as well. And so my sister acted out and, like I was saying, she left home at 15 and all that sort of stuff.

She was a real tearaway and I was the opposite. I was very much, I still am, the people-pleasing introvert. I live in my own world. That's what's kept me sane, and that's what Salvador Dali does so well, his landscapes and his figures in the landscapes, they feel very still and they're very calm, a lot of them in terms of the atmosphere.

But there's also [00:16:00] an amazing amount of emotion. There's just so much in them and they just really feel like a kind of strangely safe internal world. And that's what I'm trying to recreate. I spend months doing my paintings and I imagine living inside them a little bit, so it's kind of escapism, but I try and make it relatable for other people as well. It's sort of symbolism. Things symbolize different kinds of emotions and experiences and things like that, you know?

Haley Radke: There's this one painting that I couldn't stop looking at on your website.

There is a house on this beautiful street, and there's a tree in front, and then it looks like the lights, there's a whale in the sky, and there's a woman that looks like she's just suspended, in the air or falling.

Gareth Price: The Resurrection of Ophelia. That's right, yeah [00:17:00]. That one is one of, I think, maybe two or three works that have been commissions. That was one of them.

A guy came into the gallery to see his friend's work and he saw a painting of mine. He asked the gallery owner if I did commissions and the gallery owner contacted me and I said, Yep, sure, absolutely, show me the money. And all he wanted was his house in the painting and I pushed him and pushed him, what else do you want in it? And he would never say. He just said, just do whatever you want.

And I had this idea about doing a large whale just floating around through the sky. And so that's how that came about. But it's symbolism again. It's about the sort of immutable forces of nature and just how unstoppable and incredible they are. Some things that you look around at in the natural world, if they [00:18:00] weren't there, they would be hard to imagine, like Aurora Borealis, all that sort of thing.

Haley Radke: We call that the Northern lights. What do you call it?

Gareth Price: We have Aurora Australis down here, but we hardly ever get it. And it's very faint. I've never seen it. I think you can see it. I think you can see it from the bottom of New Zealand at particular times of the year, but quite faintly.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Where I grew up, which is 10 hours north of where I am right now, northern Canada, you could see it all the time, especially in the winter like that. Like that bright. And so I was like, whoa, that's so beautiful. What about this one where there's a woman talking on the phone and there's all of these

Gareth Price: Insects.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Gareth Price: Oh, that one is the only collaborative work that I've ever done. The wife of a friend of mine went through art school and she did a lot of canvases with all [00:19:00] these, she invented her own 60s, 70s inspired wallpaper patterns. And she just did a whole bit, there's a whole bunch of canvases in the back room of their house just sitting there unused and they're really quite beautiful. And a few of them are not finished. And so I just said, can I paint on one? Because I normally do exteriors but I did this one as an interior and the idea is it's very much reflecting me. The woman in the painting is actually the lady who painted the canvas that I painted on top of. And the whole idea is about people getting obsessed with their own work.

In this case she is an entomologist, I don't know where that idea came from, but she's an entomologist and she's just become quite paranoid. And she's trapped in her house and just imagining seeing things outside the window. And she's basically swamped in her work and it's taken over her life in a kind of [00:20:00] what I hope is a beautiful way. And yeah, it's about how people get obsessive about things in their life. Whether it's your work or whether it's one of your hobbies or whatever it is and how it can quite easily take you over sometimes. Which happens with me routinely with painting. That's what painting does to me it quite a lot

Haley Radke: I love hearing more about this and how things just have such depth of meaning to you. Amazing. So interesting. Tell me a little bit more about how you process some of your adoption feelings through your artwork. What comes out in your painting that maybe surprises you or that you're like literally just trying to expel from yourself?

Gareth Price: Even if it's quite a sort of moody painting, I try to keep the stuff [00:21:00] reasonably bright. Like I really like bright colors, but virtually all of them are to do with just how people deal with trauma or how people deal with obstacles in their life, whether it's addictions or whether it's the adoption thing and family issues.

And it's all about directly or indirectly how people deal with that. A lot of my work is about that. And there's a tremendous amount of anger in them. I've always had a real huge problem expressing anger in a healthy way. I just find it really difficult. And so I find doing painting is quite helpful.

So that's why some of them are a bit darker. The overall emotion that I have that comes through in all of them, some of them are about specific things that aren't related to adoption, but because it's the driving [00:22:00] emotion in my life, it's always there. It's this terror that's not too far below the surface. It's just horrible. It's tremendously alienating and really, it can just be so hard to just get through day to day sometimes, just dragging this weight around. But that's why the podcasts that you do and things are very helpful because the connection there is tremendous.

Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit more about what you said was alienating? Is it because people think adoption is like the best thing ever?

Gareth Price: I guess so. Yeah. There's a strange dichotomy, isn't there? Like if you tell people you're adopted these days, they tend to be a little bit more reserved with their judgment about it. Whereas when I was a bit younger, it was nothing. It was not really an issue. But the reality of it is it's so massive. And even these days, like I'm a huge fan of Reddit. I love Reddit, the [00:23:00] website. But I saw this cartoon the other day, and I've seen this in a few things.

It's just where some kid and his father and they were doing something or other. And then the punchline was he told his son, “you're adopted.” Right? And the whole meaning of it was you thought your life was great, but it was a damning thing for the father to say, if you understand.

And I've seen that in quite a few works, sorry, in quite a few cartoons and things of that nature. Where somebody tells somebody else, “You're adopted.” “Oh, I've got some bad news for you.” “What is it? Am I adopted?” “No, you just have cancer” or something, and it's basically portrayed as this really terrible thing.

And yet when you ask people about it, they don't really have the perception. It's quite hard to get across to people. Even other adoptees, too. Even my own twin sister views it [00:24:00] quite differently to me. And that's been probably the hardest of all because her experience is identical, virtually should be identical to mine, but it's not.

And I guess some people don't really have too much of an issue with it, full stop. They, for whatever reason, have managed to live quite okay. And it hasn't seemingly affected them too much or, I don't know, but what do you think?

Haley Radke: I have lots of feelings.

I've asked some of the therapists before that I speak with regularly, why do some adoptees not seem to mind being adopted? I call them happy adoptees, which is great. That's great. I'm so glad that you can have a great life and not be bothered. I'd happily go back in the fog if I could.

And I remember, I think Leslie Johnson was the one that said, some people are just a little more resilient or they have denial as a defense mechanism. And she was very clear, not saying denial in [00:25:00] any negative connotation, just that, these are not her words, I'm going to mine, but if you're blocking out your losses it's easier to just go on and move forward with life.

But if you really pay attention to them, just like you were saying, you don't want to even go to a family reunion because even if you could be happy there, there's still the other half of you who is just, oh my gosh, I missed out on so much. And you feel angry and you feel sad, and I genuinely understand that because that's exactly how I feel every time I'm with my biological family.

Gareth Price: Is that right?

Haley Radke: Oh yeah, I can't get out of it. I'm literally having the best time and it's so great and I feel like included and I feel like this is where I fit and this is my family, and right in the same moment I'm just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I missed out on this for however many years and what would my life look [00:26:00] like if I was with them?

And I wouldn't have been with them. Maybe if I was with my mother…it's just, you can't turn it off.

Gareth Price: Oh God. Ain't that the truth. Yeah. And the other thing that I keep saying to people whenever I talk about this at length, which isn't that much, is the fact that I don't think any of the problems that we have are necessarily unique to us. But I really do strongly believe that certain issues are incredibly heightened because of the experience.

Like I've seen and heard things through Adoptees On that are very relatable to me. And in You Don't Look Adopted, Anne Heffron's book, about how she would say that she really blows things out of proportion massively in her head, if somebody's late, or just all these things. It's just this [00:27:00] hyper-paranoia that it must be me. I must have done something wrong.

Oh God, why is such and such happening? It must have been something to do with me, and just have to be hypervigilant at all times about everything. And it's incredibly draining. It's incredibly draining. But I'm trying not to live like that, but it's very hard.

Haley Radke: I relate to that so much. If someone doesn't text me back, I think, what did I say? I just, right away.

Gareth Price: Yeah, it's the same.

Haley Radke: They couldn't possibly just be charging their phone or something. It's me.

Gareth Price: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, what have I done? I shouldn't have used that particular word in the last text. I must have triggered them and now they hate me or something.

Haley Radke: Oh yeah. Yeah. The hypervigilance. Oh my goodness. I so get that.

Gareth Price: Yeah. Truth be told, that's one of the biggest attractions of the art world for me, the fact that I can work on my own and I don't have to deal with as many people because people [00:28:00] are absolutely everything to me, right?

I love people so much, and they make life worth living. However, they can be very draining as well, and going into a social situation just takes a hell of a lot of energy. And I love social situations, but I do tend to avoid them if possible. Or if I do go out, they'll be quite short.

Because it just drains the crap out of me, and I'm just trying to be okay with everybody all the time. It's just nuts. It gives the outward appearance of being a very likable person in some cases, but there's a huge price to pay for it.

It would be nice to not give quite so much of a crap about what people think all the time. But it's just totally how I live. I live by the sword, die by the sword, you know?

Haley Radke: It would be so nice to live that way.

Gareth Price: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Sorry. That's [00:29:00] so funny. Do you mind, can we talk a little bit about your sister?

So you were saying she was an angry adoptee even as a kind of a younger age in her teens. Left home. And then you said you also have this anger that's inside and that you've dealt with that for a long time. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Gareth Price: I think a lot of it comes from pretty much everything that I've just said.

Even at the age of 45, I still automatically walk into a room and imagine that something's gotta be my fault. Even if I've just walked into the room, it's Oh God, what have I done? And just from holding all that stuff in and from not being able to express anger whenever I've been upset at something, like particularly growing up with a really aggressive father.

Before he died about four years ago, he had about nine months, poor chap, in a bed in the home. So I got to talk about a lot of this and I told him that [00:30:00] I loved him and I forgive him and stuff. But I haven't, I just told him that because I wanted him to die happy.

It's just an example of how it would be better if I'd been able to say no and just tell people to F off or to just basically own my own life as opposed to be living everybody else's life.

Yeah. It's just so difficult to just relax. It's like all this tension from trying to please everybody so nobody will be upset or angry at me ever. It's just unbelievably tiring. And it just mounts up all this intense amount of repressed rage and all this sort of stuff. And, just all that stuff about why the (beep) did he give me up and all this sort of thing.

And you can rationalize it until the proverbial cows come home. But at the end of the day, it's this raw emotion and the frustration that people just don't get it. And [00:31:00] except for coming to listen to you guys and read about your experiences, and just trying to feel included, trying to feel a part of something, trying to live a relatively normal life and just feel like a relatively normal person, because how it feels is not like that. How it feels is it feels like everybody else has got something that I will never have.

And that's heartbreaking. That's what it feels like pretty much all the time. The alienation and the anger from being so disastrously unique.

Haley Radke: I'm just curious about your feelings and your sister's feelings about adoption. Because you said, you grew up and you had these same experiences and yet you feel differently.

Gareth Price: I think that she does still have all these feelings, but she doesn't talk to me. I feel guilty because we don't really have as close a relationship as twins should have or [00:32:00] brother and sister, or whatever. I think we're getting closer as we get older, but she's quite different to me.

She's quite a different person. Like we're, at our core, we're basically the same, but I think that she has the same feelings, like every so often she'll open up a little bit. But it's just one of the two ways to deal with it. It's like you either pretty much shut down as much as you can about that side, because it's just too much to deal with.

Or, you start going into it the whole way. There doesn't seem to be much in between. Especially as you get older, you have to go quite ferociously at it, or you just have to just block it out of your head forever. And that's what I feel like my birth mother has done.

If she started looking into it, my fear is that it would just be too much for her to handle because there's just so much there. And I can understand how people do that, but it doesn't make it any easier, [00:33:00] really.

Haley Radke: Let's shift to talking about what are some things that you have done, like you said that a lot of these feelings come out in your artwork. And you said you've been to therapy on and off. So what are some other things that you've done to pursue healing?

Gareth Price: Listen to your podcast. Um, books are quite helpful. Everything is sort of helpful. Therapy, and I'm reading this book at the moment.

Oh no, I've read the book called Adoption Therapy: Perspectives from Clients and Clinicians. Have you read that one, edited by Laura Dennis?

Haley Radke: Yes, I have it.

Gareth Price: And the Coming Home to Self is the one that I'm reading at the moment and that one is the most intense one I'm reading. I'm having to read it very slowly because there's so much in it. It's like I can get through about maybe one or two pages and then I have to put it down and go, Oh my goodness, that's just intense.

Yeah, but to change the habits of a lifetime, even alter them [00:34:00] slightly, is very hard. And I've had, you know, ongoing addiction problems. Like I had alcohol issues for many years and it's just the numbing out a little bit. There’s the three options which are option one is just living as you are with your pain and trying to get by with it.

Option two is doing a drug or something and basically feeling better temporarily, which is, that's the attraction of it, it's reliable. Or option three is doing therapy which eventually does do a lot of good, but it takes so long. I've done it on and off for years.

And it does help, the best therapy really does help and it's wonderful. And it's made my life a better place, but sometimes all it does is just make you aware of what the actual issue is. It just shines a light on it and makes you more aware of it. Which is helpful, but [00:35:00] initially it's a struggle like when you feel like, Oh my goodness, so that's all that I've got to deal with, oh goodness.

Haley Radke: When you were talking about reading the book one page at a time, I was like, Oh, I've totally done that because I read a page and I'm like, Oh my god, that's another thing I have? Come on, I already have a hundred problems.

Gareth Price: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's an advantage, my fiancée is a psychotherapist. That's an advantage. I feel like when she comes home from work, from seeing however many screwed-up people, and then it’s coming home to another one. It’s kind of like, Oh God, how was your day, Gareth?

Oh, you really want to know? I spent it sitting doing my painting and having an existential crisis for eight hours.

Haley Radke: It's interesting that you say that because you must be while you're painting, you're in this other world, but it's still in your head. [00:36:00]

Gareth Price: I describe myself as a skeptic who lives in a fantasy world. The other podcasts I listen to they're about UFOs and aliens and stuff. But they're skeptical views on them. There's this one called Skeptoid, which I like a lot, and things like that. So I find that stuff really quite grounding.

Haley Radke: I love that your playlist has that and Adoptees On on it. That makes me so happy.

Gareth Price: Oh, I did alright then, did I? Skeptoid and Adoptees On. Woohoo! And there's also another one called Strange Matters, which is good, too. This is where my brain goes from day to day. I think my head is a nice place to visit, but it's not that great living there.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Can we talk a little bit about your relationship with your fiancée? Are you okay with that?

Gareth Price: Yeah, sure.

Haley Radke: I'm curious about how you've [00:37:00] expressed to her your adoption issues and if she got it right away, or like that kind of dynamic.

Gareth Price: Adoption issues to me seem virtually to be all trauma issues essentially. And she's got lots of books about it, and she's studied many years about how to deal with trauma.

And that's essentially what it is. It's healing trauma. Just this year, I remember reading this comparison between being given up at birth and PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder, and it really knocked me for six. It's Oh (beep), is it actually that bad?

Is it actually? And all the categories fit. It's just nuts, and that really blew me away. Cause it's like, do you have this and this? And it's, Oh yeah, I do. Oh my goodness. And God knows how many other adoptees feel the same way. I'm assuming there's quite a lot [00:38:00] judging by what I've seen on the good old internet.

But yeah, it is a form of PTSD. And it's like, jeepers, that's so intense. It's been good to talk to her about it. She tells me it's okay, that I can talk to her whenever I want to, but I still try to pick my moments because it's what she does professionally. So I try to not burden her with it too much.

She's really great, and in some ways I wish that she'd tell me to not talk to her about it every so often, but she's never like that. It's like she's too giving, and I don't know why that's a problem for me. That's a very odd issue to have. I don't know, maybe it's something about I don't deserve it or something like that. I don't know, I'm just an emotional minefield.

Haley Radke: Even when you're talking about adoption trauma as a form of [00:39:00] PTSD and when I hear that comparison, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I feel guilty because is my pain the same as someone who is a soldier that comes back from a minefield? It's just one more layer of feeling guilty and having trauma and just, ugh.

Gareth Price: Yeah, I remember reading or listening to somebody who was saying something about disassociation that happens to trauma victims. And that's always been a really big thing for me, dissociative feelings, like this kind of separating from the reality of my surroundings. It happens every so often, and it's really frightening.

And it wasn't until I started reading these books, and, a few years ago now, that I actually started to find some relief. And thank God. Because you just feel completely mad. And panic attacks. There was a period of about maybe two years where I couldn't go to the [00:40:00] supermarket. And I stopped going to the movies because I'd hyperventilate and things like that. It's just terrible.

It's absolutely dreadful. In that sense alcohol was a savior. I remember when I first started to see a psychologist, one of the first things he said was, Congratulations, you learned to medicate with alcohol. That was a very clever thing to do. And I thought that he was being sarcastic, but he wasn't. And that was a very helpful thing that he said. He said it's quite a natural way for you to adjust to your surroundings.

And there's this other thing that was about how when whole towns are destroyed by whatever happens, like some kind of natural disaster or whatever, all these kids and families and stuff, they experienced this great massive trauma, but then they seem to recover from it in a relatively quick way in the intervening years to come, and it's primarily because, this is what this article was saying, it's primarily because the people around them [00:41:00] know that what they experienced was traumatic and they relate to them accordingly.

Whereas with adoption it's not like that. You don't get that. It's like people just see it as this miracle fix and they don't recognize it as trauma. And there's no mirroring of your experience. I think that's the most dangerous thing, and that's the reason why it's so incredibly alienating.

It's like, Hello, I'm being raised by these strangers in this family where none of them look or behave like me. I remember meeting my obviously birth mother, and that was amazing, but even bigger than that was meeting all my birth father's family, a lot of them at one time, and seeing things like their eye shape, or their nose shape, or gestures that they would do, or jokes that they would crack.

That's just unbelievable. You can't explain that to somebody. To actually be able to see, [00:42:00] to actually be able to see yourself in other people when you haven't had it ever is the most amazing gift that I've ever had, ever. And it's true, just seeing your biology reflected in those around you.

If you haven't had it, it's unbelievable to just have it and to just feel that connection. And even things like scent, this sounds a bit weird, but it's true. It's like people have their particular scents, smells and things, they're subtle. But that's massive.

All that sort of stuff, it's like you just get this, just everything. Even if you don't click with them amazingly as people, you still get that biological reflection of yourself. And it's unbelievable. It took me quite a while to realize how big an impact it actually had on me.

Haley Radke: And you grew up with a sister.

Gareth Price: Yeah, exactly, and I grew up with a sister, yeah, [00:43:00] but we are very different. She's blonde and she's got quite a different face shape. I don't know, we're just two people born at the same time.

Haley Radke: I so appreciate you sharing your story.

So for this series, Season 3 is the Creative Series, my recommendations are to go and check out my guests’ work. I go and see Gareth's website. He's got all of these amazing photos of his artwork there. And you could stare at one for a very long time and not see everything.

You've got so many different objects in each painting. And you can guess what Gareth was thinking when he was painting this, all the symbolism. You'll probably get people messaging you saying what does the whale in the sky mean?

Gareth Price: From a purely business perspective, I do have prints. If [00:44:00] anybody wants to buy prints, I'll give you a good deal. But, anyway, I have particular meanings for each painting, but I'll generally only tell people if they ask, because you always bring yourself to the work, obviously. And I think it was the great Picasso who made some comment about the viewer completes the work. And it's very true.

And you bring your own experiences. And I love talking about my work, I really do, but I don't want to push it on people. I certainly will if they ask what something's about I can totally tell them. But otherwise, not everybody wants to know, some people are just happy with the mystery.

I don't know if anybody else watched Twin Peaks, the second series or the third series of Twin Peaks that just finished. It was wonderful, but it was a bit frustrating because David Lynch is a bit [00:45:00] like that. He's very much an artist and he left the mystery hanging open.

That's what art is really good at if it's worthwhile art. I feel it opens people up a little bit and peeks into bits of them that perhaps they didn't know were there. Or they might wonder why they like one picture over another picture, like why did I like that picture? Because it's actually quite dark. Or why do I like that one? I don't normally like that kind of thing, and all that sort of stuff.

I've found that time and again with works of art that I like. What's relatable to me about that? I don't even know. My subconscious liked it before my conscious did.

Haley Radke: I just want to walk through an art gallery with you. You're too far away from me.

Gareth Price: I'm right here on the screen.

Haley Radke: It's true. It's true. Oh I'm having like, you're giving me art lessons. It's wonderful. What would you like to recommend?

Gareth Price: It's a bit tricky for this one. I did think about it a bit. [00:46:00] I don't really know too many artists at all that I know whether they're adopted or not. What I've seen of Shannon Peck. Yeah, I haven't seen that in the flesh, but that seems really pointed and really quite amazing. I think that's incredible.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I got to interview her for Season 3 and dig into a lot of what she did in her exhibit, “Your Daughter is in Good Hands.”

Gareth Price: Oh, great! Oh, that's awesome. I'm trying to have the courage to deal with adoption a bit more directly in the works that I'm doing. Like, I've got this one painting that I'm doing that is almost finished and it's called “The Statue of Eternal Maternity.” And it continues with the theme of people surviving trauma and how they cope with it. But in terms of recommended resources, I think it's art and music. They're so personal, I think I could list a whole bunch of artists that I [00:47:00] like, like Dali, of course, and Alex Gross, and there's heaps of them, but all this stuff is just so personal, and also music is a massive thing for me.

Anything that makes you really feel something is a recommended resource. I just found my lost iPod which I last used about 10 years ago. And it's got all these wonderful songs on it that I haven't heard for a long time. And so I just walk around, just go for a walk and put the iPod on.

And music really helps me emote. If I'm feeling upset about something and I feel like I need to cry or get really angry or something, then I'll go to a particular song and it really helps. It really does. There's a lot to be said for it.

So I can only recommend people to just do what they do anyway, and in that sense just put on their favorite sad song or their favorite happy song, or go on the internet and find their favorite [00:48:00] whatever it is, you know?

Haley Radke: There's a lot to be said about making space for that. Our lives are very full and we're always listening to different things and not necessarily music. For me, I have podcasts always on, but making space for that, going for a walk and listening to some music and stuff. Yeah.

Gareth Price: Yeah, that's the recommended resource that I would say is just to take the time for yourself and, if it is a podcast or whatever it is you listen to, just go for a walk or just take time to feel your emotions, which is the most important thing,

Haley Radke: That feels scary.

Gareth Price: It is very scary. Yeah, just anything that you want that really grounds you or helps you. Helps you emote. Yeah, it just really helps you connect with what you're trying to connect to. It's not really for me to say because it's so personal. I like Radiohead. There's a Scottish electronic duo called Boards of Canada, who I absolutely love, and there's a whole bunch of stuff, there's just [00:49:00] endless amounts of Prince, anything by Prince. This is all personal to me and it just connects me to bits of myself that I was going to say that I can't get to any other way, but that's not entirely true. It just helps, it just really helps if you get that great feeling from a great artist if it's a musical or a visual artist. And just go there if you need to. You know better than anybody what that is. Or alternatively, go to my website and I'll fulfill every desire that you have.

Haley Radke: Yes. Where can we connect with you online?

Gareth Price: www.garethprice.co.nz, G-A-R-E-T-H-P-R-I-C-E. And I've got a few works that I need to put up on it. But it's got a little bit about me, my art on there.

Haley Radke: There's even a video clip which shows some of your work. I watched it today. And you're also on Facebook. People want to check you out there and connect with you there.

Gareth Price: It's Gareth Price and there's a photo of a pelican trying to [00:50:00] catch a fish.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for sharing some of your story and really diving into some of the things you've struggled with. I really appreciate how candid you've been with us. Thank you.

Gareth Price: Oh, that's all I did. Thank you very much. I was very honored to be asked. Thank you very much. It's been, yeah, it's been awesome. Thank you so much.

Haley Radke: Gareth has just finished up this piece called “The Statue of Eternal Maternity” and he showed it to me when we had our interview and he just sent me a photo of it. Guys, it's amazing. I can't wait for him to share it. He described it to me as comfort after trauma and it's exactly that and isn't that what we need? Oh, I just love it.

This podcast is brought to you every week because of my monthly supporters and Gareth is one of those generous Patreon supporters. And he's a part of the Secret [00:51:00] Adoptees On Facebook Group, like he mentioned. This private and safe space for adoptees only is my way of thanking you for partnering up with Adoptees On.

It's a mix of past guests and listeners, just like you, who are looking for an intimate and supportive community. Only myself and the other members will know you're a member. That's what secret group means. And if you want to join, you can visit adopteeson.com/partner for the details or you can just message me on Twitter or Facebook or adopteeson.com if you have any questions.

Speaking of adoptees, which we always are, I have a little message here for you from a fellow adoptee.

Paige Adams Strickland: Hi, everyone. My name is Paige Strickland, and I'm an adoptee from Cincinnati, Ohio. I've written two memoirs about my experiences as an adult adopted person, Akin to the Truth and After the Truth.

The first focuses on childhood and growing up. The brand new book, After the Truth, focuses on life as a reunited adopted adult and how adoption influences my teaching, parenting and friendships. [00:52:00] Books are available through Amazon and Kindle.

Haley Radke: Thanks for sending that in, Paige. If you're an adoptee and would like to promote your work on the podcast, head over to adopteeson.com/connect and click on the little microphone. You can record your message and I'd be happy to share it on a future episode of the show. I love hearing your voices.

Last thing today, guys, would you do me a favor and share the show with a friend that doesn't even know what a podcast is? I would love for you to take their phone, subscribe them to this show and one or two of your other favorite podcasts.

This is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. They're happy because podcasts are amazing, right? And you're happy because you look like a technological genius, which you are. And I'm thrilled to have a new listener. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday [00:53:00].

44 Shannon - Your Daughter is in Good Hands

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/44

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 5, Shannon. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today I'm going to introduce you to Shannon Peck, a conceptual artist whose work is sparking conversations. I have been slightly obsessed with her as of late because anything that makes people pause and reflect on what adoption actually means to an infant and its mother. That's incredibly important work, and we just need more of it.

We wrap up our discussion today with recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we talk about will be on the website, adopteeson.com. Just before we get started, I want to make sure you're subscribed to the show in your favorite podcatcher, like Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, [00:01:00] and you'll get next week's episode delivered automatically. So easy. Okay, let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome Shannon Peck to Adoptees On. Welcome, Shannon.

Shannon Peck: Thanks Bailey.

Haley Radke: I think I first found you on Instagram and I followed some of your preparations for an art exhibit that you are doing and I think that's where we first connected.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, I think it was.

Haley Radke: I'd love to first get a bit of your story, and then I would love to talk about your art with you, if that's alright. Why don't you start with your story?

Shannon Peck: I was born April 3, 1970. And my birth mother relinquished me at 10 days of age, which was in British Columbia. That was as soon as you were allowed to sign on the dotted line. On the 11th day, I was picked up by my adoptive [00:02:00] parents and taken home to meet my older brother. Yeah, I didn't spend any time in foster care and I was picked up directly from the hospital.

Haley Radke: And is he adopted as well?

Shannon Peck: My older brother is adopted, and I also have two younger siblings who are my parents’ biological children, so there's four of us in the family. Big mixed bag of kids. It was a pretty idyllic family, four kids, I always knew I was adopted. Whenever I had questions, I'd ask my mom about being adopted and she'd tell me about my birth mother, the little bit of information she had. There was a filing cabinet they had a few records in, so I could go in there any time I wanted to look at letters that came from the ministry that my mom and dad had on file.

So I always felt comfortable in asking them about that. That was never an issue. I went through life not thinking anything much about being adopted. Always was very curious about my birth family. [00:03:00] And when I turned 19, my mom told me that I was old enough, I was allowed to apply for non-identifying information from the B.C. government. I went ahead and mailed in my birth certificate copy and applied for that and I got a pretty benign typed three paragraphs of information. One about my birth mother saying she was 21 and what she looked like. A paragraph about my birth father, and then a paragraph saying they had met in Europe, she was on vacation, it was a short-term duration relationship, and I was best placed in a family with two parents.

So a lot of the typical story that adoptees hear. And after that, again, I didn't really do a lot with that information, there was nothing to be done. I didn't have any names, and I went through life, university, got married, and then in 1996, all of a sudden, I heard on the news that B.C. was opening the adoption records.[00:04:00]

And all of a sudden, we could apply and get copies of our original birth certificate. So I was lined up at the door on the first day that we could apply and paid my 30 dollars and I knew that in a few months I would know who my birth parents were and what my birth name was. And I waited and waited.

Probably it was about six months later that I finally got a call from the ministry and went in to pick up my file. And when I did, I was taken into a conference room and there was a social worker there and it all seemed rather serious. And I wasn't sure why, but when they sat me down, they told me my birth mother had filed a veto on the record.

She was one of probably just a few percent of birth parents that did that. So the veto meant I would get my records, but anything that had her name on it would literally be blacked out. So I got 40 pages of records with blackouts on [00:05:00] my birth certificate. My birth father wasn't noted on my birth certificate at all which, again, is quite common.

But interestingly enough, she did file a statement with the veto saying why she didn't want me to know who she was. And she basically said, adoption's a personal matter. I don't wish the adoptee to locate me. I don't know who or where the father is. And my family doesn't know about this incident and that was kind of, pretty blunt and yeah, that was all there was to it.

I took all my information home and I remember saying to my husband when I got home, I'm not an “incident,” I'm a little girl, like, how ridiculous is that in this day and age? But, I just filed it away and moved on. My adoptive father had just passed away and I was going through a difficult time. So it was something that clearly I wasn't ready to deal with at that point.

And again, years and years [00:06:00] went by and occasionally I'd pull the papers out and look at them and it was fun and interesting to read through the records. Look at my health records. Look at my adoptive parents. Their social worker visits when I was placed and, you'd read about the family dog and my brother and little outings we had and their take on my parents, which was in some cases quite funny to see what they had to say. But yeah, I just left it till about 2011. And I ended up in counseling. My husband and I were having a really difficult time and we had started counseling, couples counseling.

And then, my husband had done a workshop on attachment and he said, Shannon, you might like this, maybe be open minded, check it out. So I signed up for a 10-week workshop on attachment with a local counselor, and it was a women’s only workshop. And I think there were only four or five of us in the group.

And I went on the first night, and more of us started telling us about what attachment was, and [00:07:00] explaining the bond between mother and child, and how our brains are still forming in the first six, seven years of life, and how that not getting an attachment or having a broken bond can affect how we make relationship in later life.

And I said to her, I was adopted at birth but that never affected me, I have great parents, I have a fabulous family, that has nothing to do, and then I said, Okay, Shannon, you need to open your mind and at least you need to listen to this because I think you're missing out on something.

Over the course of the next week or two, I started to become very much interested in what she was saying about attachment and I'd come home and research all I could and then I came across Nancy Verrier's book, The Primal Wound, and I was instantly out of the fog. I started reading that and it just hit me and I was like, oh my goodness, I can't believe I've been living in a fog my [00:08:00] whole adult life, thinking being adopted didn't affect me. And frankly, I look at my cycle in relationships and friendships and I've got all the telltale signs of someone that is scared of being rejected, abandoned and hurt. Yeah, that workshop was just eye-opening and I just started reading and taking in anything I could and trying to figure out what my triggers were and understanding better how I could stop that cycle that I had of, whether it was like control or inability to be vulnerable with friends or my spouse, and just accepting who I was. It's still a work in progress, but at least reading and understanding that information helped me realize why I was doing the things I was doing, and there was nothing wrong with me. I had a trauma at birth and this is why I continued this cycle of events.

So to me, that was like the turning point [00:09:00] in my adult life where I really started to accept myself. And that's when I stepped back into doing art. I've been doing art my whole life, but that's when I really started taking more of an interest in my life as art, and looking at how my identity was shaped. And whether it was through painting that I did, or textile art that I did, and just really focusing on myself as a child that had a past with hurt and trying to come to terms with that.

Haley Radke: That is so fascinating because I talk to a lot of adoptees who get placed with adoptive parents and it's not great, or they're abused, or there's just something there that is not right. So it's easy to look at them and be like, of [00:10:00] course, adoption has affected them, and you described your childhood as idyllic. And it sounds like your mom was really supportive, saying you're 19, you can apply for your non-identifying information and stuff. So it sounds like you have had really supportive parents and everything. And yet there's still this influence on your life.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, there's definitely still a longing, right? A longing to know where you're from and where your roots are and who those people are that made you. Because you can adopt your adoptive parents’ heritage but it's never the same. It's never who you truly are inside and you can pretend that it is, but that only lasts so long.

Haley Radke: Yeah, it was interesting. Even just how you were speaking about sitting in this conference room with the social worker and realizing you're not going to get the information that you hoped for. Oh, okay, but I'm not an incident. I don't know. It's like [00:11:00] you just have to have this flat affect just to preserve yourself. I'm not ready to look at this yet. That and you're so right, it's such a low percentage of birth parents who veto in every state or province that opens up.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, they say it's like one to one to two percent, if that. Yeah, I got the lucky number.

Haley Radke: So lucky. So lucky. Okay. So you started reconnecting with art.

Shannon Peck: I started with actually a class down in Victoria by Nick Pearce. He's a painter and he does a workshop called “Through Artists’ Eyes.”

And it's a workshop where you paint yourself and you paint yourself as a nude and it's a way of connecting with your image and just getting comfortable with who you are as yourself and reconnecting with yourself. And I actually took the workshop three times. It's with a group of women.

You each have your picture you're painting from and you spend the weekend just connecting with other [00:12:00] women who have had various challenges in life and are trying to figure out who they are, and that work really helped move me a little further along in acceptance of myself.

Following that, I got back into textiles, which I have done my entire life. I've stitched since the time I was probably four or five years old. Always liked to do embroidery and sewing through high school and something that always gave me comfort. So I started working on some embroideries and attended a workshop actually, in Tennessee, a stitching as drawing workshop.

And my thought was to start stitching my story of being adopted. And I was going to start with the anatomical basics of like, how is a baby made? And I had an anatomy coloring book that I had got from the thrift store with these scientific drawings and I thought they'd translate well to embroidery.

So I started doing the male and [00:13:00] female body parts and reproductive organs. And then came a baby that I embroidered and it was a week long course. So I worked with the instructor and she was a really good mentor that week in helping me work towards figuring out how I could bring an exhibit together. Yeah, just how I could bring ideas together that would be meaningful.

And so I came home from that class just really excited about moving forward with that. And as I got home, I thought I'll start looking through my old adoption records. They were pretty dog- eared by that point, they were about 20 years old, so I reapplied to the ministry for a new set of my file. I knew it would still be redacted, but I thought at least I'd have better copies. And that arrived around Christmas, I think, of 2014.

I got the file. I didn't think anything of it. I sat it around, and a few days before Christmas I pulled it out to go through it. And, lo and behold, on a page where there was an [00:14:00] interview with my birth mother in Catholic Services, they missed redacting my birth mother's first name. And on the original documents, her name was definitely redacted, but they had missed it this time.

So all of a sudden I had a name, I had a first name for my birth mother. And I was just beside myself that I knew she had a name. She became a real person at that point. I phoned up my family and I was telling them about it, and I sat the records aside and the next day I thought, if they missed that, there may be other things that they missed.

Maybe I better go through this really carefully. And on page three of my records, I already knew my birth name which was Carrie Lee, but I found my surname at birth, which was my birth mother's surname as well. And I found her birth date on another page, and I found my entire name again on my medical records in the file.

So somebody had done a really poor job in [00:15:00] redacting the information, which I was thrilled about at that point. So it was like, I think probably within 24 hours online through Ancestry, I found my birth mother's entire family history. They were written up in the history books of the town in Alberta that they're from. I found paragraphs about her taking a trip to Europe and then coming back and moving to Vancouver, which totally matched the information I had from the ministry, which said my birth mother went to Europe on a holiday and came back pregnant and moved to Vancouver. So it was just eye opening for me.

And again, at the time, I said to my husband, I know it wasn't even knowing my birth mother's name as much as I finally knew who I was for those first 11 days of my life. I had a different identity at that time. And I finally knew who that identity was. And I felt like there was a [00:16:00] child that had been trapped inside me.

There was the Shannon Peck, who I am now, and there was the Carrie. Lee, who was this little girl at 11 days old who was given away, and I felt like that was the beginning of finally being able to reconcile those two people back into one person. Yeah, again, I didn't realize adoption had affected me, I didn't realize that I was really struggling with the rejection, with abandonment, and with just a feeling of loss.

I didn't realize what that was until I found it.

Haley Radke: So what did you do with this information? You know who she is?

Shannon Peck: Yeah. So I had that information and I started searching online and I had found her, but I didn't obviously have her married name. But with the help of another genealogist online, I found my birth mother's [00:17:00] mother's obituary. And within probably 10 minutes, I was able to locate cousins on Facebook and then a half brother and then my birth mother who was on Facebook. And I came face to face with pictures of her and her husband and her son, who's my half brother, and they live 90 minutes south of me. Yeah, so that was even harder, I think, because she's so close, but she might as well be halfway around the world because she's not interested in knowing me. So I think that made it a lot harder just to come to terms with that at the time.

Haley Radke: Yeah. And I have shared before that, I did find mine and then we had a brief reunion and then she cut off contact, but she's 20 minutes and I could be on her front doorstep.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, it's just so hard. So hard, because I think I could just drive down there. With Google Maps, you can see where people live. I could knock on her [00:18:00] door, but I just can't be that invasive, so I left it at that. I knew who she was, I looked at her on Facebook, I found a bunch of pictures and information and at that point, I just really focused on my exhibit that I was working on. I think that Exhibit at that point really started to take a different shape.

When I first started, my goal was to write about my adoption story. And it was more like a rebuttal to the disclosure veto that my birth mother had written. It was like an F you, you don't want to know me, but I'm an awesome person and this is my story. And I think when I got to see that she was actually a human being, and I could understand what she maybe had gone through as an unwed mother and growing up in a very staunch Catholic home, and really having no choice in giving me up that, yes, she became more of a human being and [00:19:00] my story in my exhibit became more of one about understanding what adoption was like and the social construct that was created by social workers and the government to aid in finding homes for these children and the shame that was around that for birth mothers and for adoptees and the problems with identity. So it became more an educational exhibit that was, although it was my story, it was more a way for people to understand what it was like in that period of time as an adoptee.

It's interesting because when I first started the exhibit, I wrote a letter to my birth mother that I didn't send. I didn't know who she was at the time. I just wrote a letter and I'd never actually done that before. So I was like 45 or 44 and I wrote a letter to my birth mother. I'm not an angry person. I'm pretty positive and upbeat, but you definitely could read [00:20:00] into it some anger and frustration. And I probably redrafted the letter 200 times in the four years before I actually sent her the letter. It's really fascinating to read through those letters and watch how the language, my language, changed over the years as I felt like I got to know her as a person, even though it was through Facebook, but just through reading about her family and her experiences.

And I think in coming to terms with things myself, it just became more of a letter that showed vulnerability, showed forgiveness, and showed that I was more at peace with what had happened. So I continued to work on the exhibit, and in 2016, it was probably about seven months before the exhibit launched, I decided I should send a letter to my birth mother, because I wanted her to know that the exhibit was happening. I wanted her to know that [00:21:00] I knew who she was and I didn't want her to freak out in case she saw the advertisements for the exhibit. The fiber community on the island is fairly small and I know my birth mother's also involved in fiber.

Yeah, she's a quilter, an avid quilter, and I do fiber and quilting. We have two degrees of separation between many friends online, so I thought I should reach out to her and at least tell her. So I wrote her a long letter and sent pictures, and I sent this letter by registered mail.

And one of the funny things I did, which kind of shows my quirky sense of humor, was when you opened the envelope, the first thing you saw was from a record album. It wasn't The Sound of Music, but it was some other album where there was a nun waving on a bicycle. And my birth mother grew up Catholic, and I was adopted Catholic. So the first thing she opened and saw was this nun waving to her on a bicycle, which is just a little bit of my wicked sense of humor. [00:22:00]. Obviously she signed for the letter, opened it, and I got notification from Canada Post that she had signed for it.

And then her Facebook page within a couple of days was pretty tight. Like I could only see her profile picture. Everything else was removed. So I knew she was freaking out at that point, that she was absolutely fearful I was going to show up, even though I said I would not. I knew at that point that her family didn't know, her husband and son didn't know. But I needed her to know that I was doing this exhibit and she was free to come and see it if she wanted.

Which was probably not going to happen, but I wanted to let her know that was going to happen. Yeah, it was a very strange time. Not expecting to get a response, but still hoping to get a response. And waiting, waiting, and I think the first six weeks I was, like, waiting. And then, as more time passed, it was like, okay, it's not [00:23:00] happening. She's clearly had a secret for 46 years, 47 years. That's not going to change. It's got to be forced out of her if anything's going to change.

Yeah, I just kept moving along on my exhibit and by the time April came around I had almost 84 pieces stitched for my show, which included everything from, I think I had about 25 hand-stitched and -sewn garments and dresses with quotes from my adoption history. And those were paired with a lot of the anatomical parts. So you had this whole scientific bit that was harsh and unassuming with these little baby dresses that had quotes about me being an incident and quotes about my adoptive parents being model people and quotes about my birth parents and their descriptions. I had dolls.

Yeah, [00:24:00] it was quite an undertaking to put together. It took me a total of four years. So when it did finally end up in the gallery, it was eight hours to install. And then it was three weeks in the gallery.

I remember the day it opened, which happened to be on my birthday, which was serendipitous, not planned, but I went in and spent some time in the gallery and the first person I met in the gallery was one of the volunteers. And she had not only relinquished a child at birth, she had also adopted a child. Almost every one of the volunteers that was a volunteer at the gallery had an adoptee story to tell me. And it was like, wow.

And that first day in the gallery, I was there for maybe two hours and every person that came in was crying walking through, and people coming up to me, sobbing and me holding these people who were strangers [00:25:00] in my arms. And I went home that afternoon and that night. And I said to my husband, what the hell have I done? I don't know if I can handle this. There's three weeks of this. And he's like, well, this is what you wanted.

But I expected there'd be an emotional response, but the response was so overwhelming by not just people that were adoptees and birth parents, but by anyone and everyone that walked in there that it still boggles me to this day.

Haley Radke: I remember seeing your Instagram feed and so I was seeing some of the things that weren't finished yet. And things you were moving towards and I was just stunned. And tonight, just before we got on the call, I went back through your website and you have this beautiful gallery of photos from the exhibit. And I just started sobbing. I genuinely started [00:26:00] going through it and I'm like, it is so moving. I'm fine. It's fine.

Shannon Peck: It’s okay. You're a crier.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Everyone knows I'm a crier. I know. I totally am. The quotes that you have stitched on these little white sheath dresses, right? It's “Your Daughter is in Good Hands” and then the mirror that you have, and there's words that say, “Are you my mother?” And I can picture women going through and looking at themselves in this mirror and how profound is that? You have captured so many pieces of the adoption experience.

I wish I could have been there. I so deeply wish I could have seen the exhibit in person but the photos will have to do. The other thing that you had, right now and you mentioned earlier, “My family does not [00:27:00] know about this incident.” And then you have these little wooden blocks right above, like the kids’ wooden blocks, that say “incident” on top.

And I'm looking through these pictures and everything in my body is just feeling the weight of that. You are a secret from her whole family. And what does that mean when you come back looking for her? It's exactly what's happened. Secondary rejection. And there's so many of us that have experienced that.

You're shifting the cultural narrative, Shannon. Do you know what you've done? Seriously. It's amazing.

Shannon Peck: Thank you. It was very eye opening. And I think the three weeks that I spent in the gallery, my intention was to go every couple of days because they had full-time volunteers there. But after the first two days, I said to my husband, I need to be here every day in the [00:28:00] gallery. I need to be there to hear people's stories because everyone that came in wanted to talk to me and they wanted to tell me their story or their sister's story or their brother's story, their husband's story. And so we made arrangements to have someone help in our business during those three weeks so I could take more time to be in the gallery.

And I was there, anywhere from three hours a day to eight hours on some days and just listening to stories that were, like we know, sad and tragic and others were beautiful and hopeful. Yeah, just everything in between and it was both beautiful and sad to know that so many people cared and that so many people were interested and wanting to learn and understand about what it had been like for birth mothers in that era and what [00:29:00] adopted children go through. And most adopted children don't even either recognize or don't talk about it.

It's a social stigma that just is off left. The one thing with fiber that I think is easy for people to understand is if you walk into a gallery and you see paintings on the wall or big giant sculptures, sometimes people are just a bit cold. People don't even know how to take them. But if you walk in a gallery and you see an embroidery or you see a little girl's dress, it's just calming to people. And even if the words on that dress sucker punch you, it is still easier, I think, for them to understand and to take in the story and to feel empathy towards what's happened or what's gone on in that case.

Haley Radke: You even had a crib in one corner. The crib, and can you explain what was on the blanket and what was [00:30:00] printed on it?

Shannon Peck: Yeah, the crib was a big part of what I wanted people to walk in and see a nursery because I knew immediately they would think of the child. And so in the crib, I had a few things. I had my birth certificate, so my birth certificate, which was not my original birth certificate but my amended birth certificate when I was adopted. And I had the Supreme Court order of my adoption made into a baby quilt. And it was the full crib length with all little kinds of vintage embroidered little deer and bunnies and all those kinds of things you'd imagine on a baby blanket.

And then I had the letter stating that my birth mother had signed the relinquishment and the letter from Catholic Services on another quilt hanging over the crib. The way quilts are nice and soft and comforting but, again, the words on those quilts were things that can be devastating.

I had dolls in the [00:31:00] crib and baby blocks that said different things, had my birth names and had my relinquishment date and birth date. I had a little silver tray that I had done. It was this ornate tray and it had hand-embroidered “You're not an incident” or “I'm not an incident, I'm a little girl.”

I'd done a double-headed selfie doll, which at the time felt like I was reintegrating myself as an adult with that 10-day-old child that was relinquished. I made this double-headed selfie doll. And my mom at the time was like, what the heck are you doing? Like I had this two-headed doll that didn't have feet. It had these little mermaid legs on it. And nobody at the time really had a clue what I was doing until they walked in the gallery and they could see, they got a sense of the context with that reintegration. [00:32:00]

Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit about that? You said you spent four years preparing this exhibit and over this time you said you came out of the fog in 2011 and you know that you're processing things and healing. Can you talk a little bit about actually making these things for the exhibit and what that did for you?

Shannon Peck: With fiber, like I mentioned, it's a nice soft thing you're working with. You're working with cloth and you're working with thread and you have your needle. It's a really simple thing. And for me, I'm a very tactile person. I find it easier to get my feelings out if I'm sewing or if I'm writing. I have a hard time finding words often. I really have to do a lot of preparation if I'm going to speak. I have to spend a long time thinking about what to say because the words don't come to me easy.

So when I'm working with textiles it gives me a way just to connect with my inner [00:33:00] self. And as I was stitching, I made, for instance, a pillowcase that had a stitched version of the veto statement that my birth mother wrote about me being an incident. And I probably spent three weeks hand stitching her words over and over every night as I worked on that I thought about her and I thought about what she had gone through and I thought about every one of those letters and words and what it meant and, yes, some of those words, like being called an incident, it is like you think, well, that's a hurtful thing but I also could look at it and think.

As I stitched these long hours understanding her fear and her shame. And she was disconnected. She had disconnected herself from that 21-year-old person who was pregnant and alone in Vancouver and gave birth. So it really helped me process the pain and suffering that I had, but also [00:34:00] process the pain that she felt.

It helped me forge a strong relationship with my mom and my family, my adoptive family. I've never been one that's rocked the boat when it comes to talking about things that are emotional or deep because I'm always worried about what people are going to think. But as I started stitching, I was feeling more comfortable about asking my mom about circumstances, about picking me up at the hospital, or what she noticed or anything else she remembered about how my mom and dad had named me, about how she felt, like she grew up in the era of the 60s. So what was it like for her to grow up in that era? She knew women that had given children away and understanding kind of better from her perspective what that was like.

The stitching is challenging in some ways and it's [00:35:00] also peaceful, and just over and over stitching. It's that repetition of stitch after stitch and just thinking I probably spent I don't know how many thousands of hours and four years stitching little tiny stitches and that whole time just immersed in my story and my identity and my birth mother's identity. I think to the point my husband was like, okay, enough already. Like four years, every minute of every day. That's all you talk about. That's all you do. But I'm sure you get that.

It really helped me come to terms with where I was and helped me express and vent my feelings through my art. Even with the fact my birth father was non-existent on my birth certificate. I knew that he was 22. I knew he was in the Air Force, and she met him in Europe. I knew what he looked like, and I knew a couple interests he [00:36:00] had based on the interviews she gave Catholic Services, but through the stitching, I felt like I didn't know who this person was, and I figured I never would, but I made up a name on my birth certificate for my birth father based on what his description was.

So he was known to me as Happy-go-Lucky because that was how he was described. And so I made him a real person at least on my birth certificate. So I felt I had two birth parents, at least. And that stitching helped me move through a lot of things over four years.

Haley Radke: It's interesting, what you said, you like to write and you like to do the stitching and stuff, but the stitching, you can get things out that you don't have words for, and I think it's like that for a lot of arts and with our adoption trauma, most of us that I've interviewed and that listen were [00:37:00] adopted as infants. And so it is pre-verbal trauma that we experienced. So I think it's so powerful to unlock that through different tactile mediums like that. Interesting. So interesting.

Shannon Peck: I think that until I actually did the work and did the exhibit and did the stitching and came through that, it wasn't until I had finished that that I actually could put into words what I had experienced. And my searching, I had spent years searching, and whether I felt like I was searching for my birth mother or myself or for God or for God knows what, like I spent years searching and then finally realizing after all this was done that I felt like what I was searching for was there with me all along, it was inside of me. It was this loss that I'd felt and I was searching to fill this big hole that I had in me. And it wasn't until I could reconcile my [00:38:00] identities, and certainly finding out who my birth mother was played a huge role in that as well.

Haley Radke: And now, the last thing I saw on your social media was all the little fetuses. Oh my gosh. And you sent me this photo of you with the one around your neck. Like a necklace?

Shannon Peck: With a scarf! I had been invited to be in a group show in Victoria at the Martin Batchelor Gallery and it was a show called “Threaded” and basically we could do any fibre thing we wanted and whatever we wanted so on the heels of “Your Daughter in Good Hands” I was still feeling like right in the whole adoption and watching out for children and the whole idea of being disassociated.

And so I decided to stitch a whole grouping of little baby fetuses. And I think I stitched 14 of them in the end, plus one big giant [00:39:00] one. And each of them had their own little identity, their own little brain trauma with different French knots. They had hand-woven and twisted umbilical cords and little wool placentas attached to them.

And each one was tagged with its own name as to what trauma it had been in. And so whether it was like an adopted child or an abandoned child or a child in foster or an abused child or a neglected child or just an unloved child, they each were tagged with what their trauma was. And each of them were stuffed into little glass jars, little terrarium jars with an opening at the front.

So the umbilical cord came out the top and hung there. And they were all grouped on the wall in the gallery. And yeah, it was my way of looking at that, the whole idea of being disassociated either from your birth identity or [00:40:00] the whole attachment thing with having a broken bond with your birth parent.

And that's not just for adoptees, it's for everyone, many children from many different walks of life. Adoptees don't own attachment. Like I've got friends, I have colleagues, they've all got different traumas. And when you look at the root of it, much of it has to do with the attachment and whether they were adopted or their parent didn't attach well to them for one reason or another. We all have that kind of bond together.

Those are my little fetus grouping, yes. And I did make a scarf out of one of them with the scarlet letter “A” on it for adopted. And I think it was a very hot day at the gallery opening and I had my little wool fetus scarf wrapped around my neck. The show got a lot of comments.

A lot of people I think were intrigued. The gallery owner said there was a lot of people that came in were [00:41:00] just like, they found it even offensive. And he was like, he thought that was great because anything that promoted discussion is what he was aiming for.

Haley Radke: But that imagery of having a baby in a glass jar. Basically not attached to anything, right?

Shannon Peck: Yeah.

Haley Radke: It is shocking.

Shannon Peck: But it does help people really see, visually get the sense of what it's like when you take a child from its mother and put it somewhere else. You get a sense of what that would look like. Again art can be words. You can write it down in words, but if you can actually see that visually, it really can bring home the point. And I'm all about pushing the limits on the artistic thing, like the wackier and more eccentric something is I'm happier with it.

Haley Radke: I really admire your [00:42:00] work and I think that you are making a huge impact. So thank you for it. Okay, Shannon. Is there anything else you want to touch on?

Shannon Peck: In the last few weeks, I know you are aware, Haley, but I've actually found my birth father in the last few weeks through DNA online, which has been amazing and shocking and altogether just surreal going from not having a name to Happy-go-Lucky and yeah, it's been amazing.

So that's the next journey. I'm thinking, where does that take me next in my art journey? I had some plans on another exhibit, but now I'm thinking I might head off in another direction. So we'll see where that goes. But right now we're just in the start of reunion and it's been a pleasant surprise.

Haley Radke: I’m so happy for you and [00:43:00] I hope that some of the previous podcasts that have come out will be helpful to navigate reunion, which can be very tricky, but it's always pleasant to be in the honeymoon stage of reunion.

Oh, dear, I promised Shannon I wouldn't dig into that because I want to be sensitive to things that are actually happening right now, but I'm very excited for you.

Okay, so in this season, instead of doing recommended resources where I come up with something and my guest does. My resource is really that you're going to check out Shannon's work. Shannon’s website is specksurfacedesign.com. And, as I said earlier, you can go in and look through a whole bunch of photos. I think there's over 20 of the “Your Daughter is in Good Hands” exhibit. And I really recommend that you do. There's a lot of media coverage as [00:44:00] well that you’ve got, Shannon, so there's some articles, other interviews, and I think I even watched a video, maybe that was with Shaw.

Shannon Peck: Yes, it was.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so you can get a sense of the exhibit. I've spent a long time, more than I'll admit, looking at those things and being very moved. So I recommend that you go and check out Shannon's work. Okay, Shannon, what would you like to share with us?

Shannon Peck: A few recommended resources I have. I know. Some have been touched on in past episodes, so I'll just go over those quickly. One is Anne Fessler, both the Girls Who Went Away, as well as a documentary she did, which are both fabulous to watch. Nancy Verrier, of course. Primal Wound and Coming Home to Self were big for me, just coming out of the fog.

And one for Canadian adoptees, which a lot of people aren't really [00:45:00] aware of, is by Anne Petrie, and it's called Gone to an Aunt’s. And it, like Anne Fessler, is interviews, but with Canadian birth mothers and about Canadian birth homes and their experiences, so it's nice to get a kind of at-home perspective for adoptees on that.

Haley Radke: I can't believe I have not heard of this. How embarrassing. I am Canadian. Most people think I'm American, but I am Canadian. I definitely want to check that out.

Shannon Peck: No, it's a good one.

Haley Radke: Gone to an Aunt's. Yeah. So that's the story, they say, right?

Shannon Peck: Yes. That's exactly it.

Haley Radke: The Girls who Went Away and Gone to an Aunt’s. What a great title. Okay, and there was another documentary that you wanted to talk about.

Shannon Peck: The other one is called In Utero, and it is just out, I think in the last year. You can go online and purchase and download a copy in your area. There's been a few screenings, but I think it's hitting a lot of the film festivals, and it is [00:46:00] about scientific research about how a mother and child, how a birth mother or how a mother's emotions and decisions she makes while the child's in utero affects a child for life, which will help adoptees understand some of the trauma that they may have experienced based on what their birth mother felt when they had to give them up. And it's really fascinating. The research is just starting to come out really fast and furious. Gabor Maté was one of the researchers working on that. And it's really fascinating. I definitely recommend it for anyone to take a look at.

Haley Radke: That sounds so good. And you're so right, there's more and more research about attachment and the effects of not having the mother bonding even right after you're born. And like you said it's great for adoptees to watch this, but [00:47:00] other people are affected by these things as well. Childhood trauma.

On the flip side of that, there's a lot of different excellent books that aren't necessarily for adoptees, but that address childhood trauma that adoptees should really be researching if you're interested in healing.

Shannon Peck: There are so many great books out there. I just finished one by Bessel van der Kolk, The Body Keeps the Score, which is phenomenal. Just phenomenal.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I think I've had a couple of the therapists recommend that in the Healing Episodes. Yes, that's probably on the “must read” list now. It’s been so fabulous to talk to you, Shannon, where can we connect with you online?

Shannon Peck: So, like Haley said, my website is specksurfacedesign.com and you can also connect with me through Facebook. It's facebook.com/speckledfrogg with two g's.

Haley Radke: Okay, I have to ask.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, “speck” is [00:48:00] my first initial and last name, Shannon Peck. And when I made my email years and years ago, I was a frog person. I love frogs. And two G's just because I'm unique. There's always gotta be a story behind those things. And then I'm on Instagram as well. Speck_surface_design.

Haley Radke: Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much for chatting with me. I loved hearing your story and I loved hearing the process of creating your exhibit and your other work. It's just so moving.

Shannon Peck: Thank you so much for having me.

Haley Radke: Oh, isn't it exciting to hear that Shannon found her father? The most recent news that I can give you is that she is going to be meeting him in person very soon after this episode goes live. [00:49:00] So I'm just thrilled for her.

Also she has just compiled an exhibit catalog of photos from “Your Daughter is in Good Hands.” So I have put a link to where you can order that in the show notes on adopteeson.com, and I am like waiting by my mailbox. I just ordered it and I'm ready to see it. As I said while I was interviewing her, I have spent a lot of time looking through those pictures on her website. They are just so moving.

I really have found it powerful to pause and look at them and actually experience the feelings. I know, it's so yucky to feel the feelings, but we just need to so that's been really helpful for me. So if you are a visual person and sometimes it takes a little something to push you to feel something, I would recommend that for you.[00:50:00]

Okay, you guys, I'm loving this Healing Series, healing through creativity and art, and I hope you are too. So if you have some ideas for guests that you would like to hear from, send me a note on adopteeson.com/connect. And also there, if you are an adoptee and you have a book you would like to promote or some other work, you can record a very short 60-second audio message and send it to me and I may include it in the next episode of the podcast. So you could hear your promo right here. I love to hear your voices. Send me an audio clip.

I just want to say a gigantic thank you to my Patreon supporters. You lovely, lovely people are literally what is keeping me doing this show and [00:51:00] you're making it possible for me to come every week and do this work for you.

I am just flabbergasted every time I go into our secret Facebook Group. It's for adoptees only. And people are sharing some very personal things and the rallying of the community has been amazing. So I'm just so proud of you guys. Can I say that? I don't mean it condescending, like I genuinely am so proud of you for how you are taking such good care of each other and how this community is building. And it's really amazing. So I love you. And thank you.

If you want to stand with me and with the work that Adoptees On is doing, head over to adopteeson.com/partner and you can read all about the details on Patreon. Patreon is this website that takes monthly pledges to help support creators like me.

All the details are on that website, [00:52:00] adopteesone.com/partner.

One very last thing before I say goodbye for this week, would you just share the show with one person. And sometimes the barrier for people to listen to podcasts is they don't know how easy it is to just grab their phone and listen.

So if you're with a friend for coffee or maybe you're at your adoptee support group, pull someone aside and say, have you listened to this show and let me show you how. Cause sometimes that's the barrier. I would love it if you would share the show with just one, one friend this week. Thank you for listening.

Let's talk again next Friday.

43 [Special] Live Recordings from the Concerned United Birthparents Retreat

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/43

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is season three, episode four, live recordings from the Concerned United Birth Parents Retreat. I'm your host, Haley Radke. I have a bit of a different show for you today. This is a compilation of in person interviews that I did with several different people, and I hope it will give you a taste of what the retreat was like.

So I was at the Concerned United Birth Parents Retreat in Carlsbad, and that was Beginning of October in 2017, and after all the sessions I attended, I went over to Facebook Live and I did a bunch of little recap [00:01:00] videos. So if you want to learn about some of the content that was taught in the presentations go on over to Adoptees On Facebook page, and then you can watch those videos there. They're really short, like five minutes each. And I just do a little summary of what was taught and what were highlights for me. And I summarized my notes from each session. And if you have questions about that, just post them under the video.

I'll see those and I'll be able to whatever. If I need to write you out the whole name of a speaker that was presenting, or if I have contact info for them or something, if you want to reach out, let me know, or you can just message the Facebook page. I'm happy to connect you. And so these interviews are more personal in nature.

They're very short, but I just really wanted to get a sense for why people come to retreats or events like this and what they've learned and what they want everyone to know about adoption and how it's impacted their [00:02:00] life. And so if I'm being very candid with you, which I always am it's a very hard thing to be at an event like this because everyone is hurting.

And we have come here together to find some sense of community and me too, and also looking for healing. The thing about doing these interviews, even though I don't feel like I'm asking very hard questions, sometimes people open up and I feel like I'm cracking someone open. It's very hard. When you see someone in person and you see their face when you've asked them this question that maybe they didn't wanna, maybe they didn't wanna address, it's really hard.

And there's nothing I can say that will take away that hurt. I tread very carefully and I hope that [00:03:00] these little glimpses will give you a piece of what it was like to be there. And encourage you to also go to another retreat or conference or support group where you too can be with adoptees or with first parents in real life.

I'd really encourage you to do that. Okay. So I'm just going to play these back to back. And I give introductions during the live interview, if they would like to say their name, they do. And then some of them ask to be anonymous. So I've left that part out. Okay, that's it. Let's listen in.

Hi, can you tell me your name?

Amy Huckaba: My name's Amy Hecuba.

Haley Radke: And Amy, what brought you to this retreat?

Amy Huckaba: This is my first time going to an adoption retreat. It's been a big [00:04:00] year. I we have been in reunion for almost a year now, and it's been such a great thing that I love talking about it with other people, and it's been really fun meeting people and sharing stories.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's amazing the connections you make and you can meet people in real life. It was so great. Awesome. What is one thing that you wish people knew about adoption that the general public doesn't know?

Amy Huckaba: What pops in my head is actually what I wish is that everybody knew about DNA because it is magic. I really wish that it's happening people are using DNA to find their people, but I just want it to be, like, a household fact, everybody knows about it and everybody is really comfortable and feels like they have the right to know who they come from..

Haley Radke: So is there anything that you would say to just someone who doesn't even necessarily have a [00:05:00] connection with adoption, but about just testing, how can that be helpful for adoptees who are searching?

Amy Huckaba: Like a lot, what a lot of people don't understand that they think that, their actual people they're looking for have to have tested. And it isn't the case at all that now that there's millions and millions of people doing DNA, all you have to do is connect up with maybe a second cousin or even a third cousin. I found my birth mom just from third cousin matches. And of course, the more people that, that do DNA, the, greater the database to help people. Get their answers.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's so interesting. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything that you're really hoping to learn or take away from this weekend?

Amy Huckaba: You already said it. It's just we have this amazing community, but we are, communicating like virtually, and so to actually be together and share space and look people in the eye and hear their stories and give a hug [00:06:00] and it's incredible to, if I guess I'm just like, sold that, it's community it's great. And especially meeting people in person, it's awesome.

Haley Radke: Great. Thank you Amy.

So can you tell me where you are in relation to adoption and what brought you to this?

Anonymous: I'm a mom. Almost two decades. I mostly came here just to meet internet friends. That was the major pull. Because one of them said, you have to come.

Haley Radke: I think I know who that was.

Anonymous: That's the main reason I'm here. The other reason is just curiosity. Just to see what what was going to be said and.

Haley Radke: Have you been around other adoptees and moms?

Anonymous: Not like this.

Haley Radke: Not in person?

Anonymous: Definitely not in person.

Haley Radke: No, and not this many.

Anonymous: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And do you have one or two takeaways, things [00:07:00] that you've learned this weekend?

Anonymous: One thing was just, I was very comfortable knowing that each person that was here shared in a similar story, so it throws your defenses off that you don't have to be insecure about your story. So that was freeing that I learned that, once I got here, it's like everybody played a part in this story.

So we all have these pains and insecurities. So that was a comfort. I think I learned more from the adoptee perspective. I've definitely, had two decades of my own perspective. So it was interesting, the addiction panel yesterday was interesting that it was three adoptees that spoke, so it was interesting to hear it from their perspective, and then the, wow, there were a lot of adoptees that spoke this week because the healing panel, [00:08:00] both of,

Haley Radke: yeah Leslie and Tracy are both adoptees and therapists. Yeah.

Anonymous: Yeah, so it was really nice. I know the mom perspective, so it was nice to be able to hear the other side of it.

Haley Radke: And I, of course, I feel the other way, right? Like I, I know the adoptee perspective, so I love hearing from the moms. Yeah, absolutely. And I wish there were, fathers represented too, but I think I, I saw one. So one person say that he was a father.

Anonymous: A lot of what I took away was as a mom in a crisis pregnancy you have so many people telling you that you're you're being selfless, and this is how a mom behaves that you are supposed to be selfless for this child and not think about yourself, and you're supposed to do the best for them and give them opportunity that you're being told that you could never provide to these children.

Coming here and hearing their perspective, [00:09:00] that all I wanted was my mom. And I wanted to know about who I was and like mirror images and, there's this hole that adoptees have. That as a mom, I was never told that like it was supposed to, I was supposed to be thanked for giving my child this opportunity, which is gross in itself because honestly, I don't want my child to come back to me and say, thank you for not raising me.

That's offensive in itself, but it was nice to hear that adoptees miss their mothers, that we weren't just this shell that gave life to them, because it's really hard to live the rest of your adult life believing you were just this baby maker, this shell of a person. That nobody, you had no value other than the fact that you could provide a baby for other [00:10:00] people.

So it was healing in a lot of ways. It gave me a sense of self to understand I was important. These mothers of these adoptees were important people and they missed them. So That was nice to hear.

Haley Radke: So can you tell us who you are and what is your relationship to adoption?

Reshma McClintock: I am Reshma McClintock and I am an international adoptee from Calcutta, India. I was adopted and arrived in the U. S. at three months old. I grew up in Oregon with a really wonderful family. And I recently went back to Calcutta for the first time since leaving 37 years ago.

Haley Radke: You have a documentary that's coming out about your story next year, so that's great. It's good to know that. And you also started the website Dear Adoption, which we love at Adoptees On for sure. What brought you to this conference?

Reshma McClintock: I am always looking to build community between adoptees and first parents [00:11:00] and to connect with other adoptees and hear their experiences.

I've only recently really heard the stories from the first parents and the grief and the weight that they are carrying is similar and different to the grief and the weight that adoptees are carrying. And so I was just coming to hope to connect to other people who have experienced the same kind of traumas.

Haley Radke: What are some takeaways? Did you learn anything or, yeah, have any moments that are like, whoa, my gosh, I can't believe that someone shared that yeah, during the sessions or anything?

Reshma McClintock: I think, honestly, my biggest takeaway is just experiencing the vulnerability of other people who have been so severely traumatized and grieved by adoption.

As society as a whole typically views adoption in such huge generalities. I think that my frustration with that stems around the fact that there are people who are willing to be vulnerable and honest and open and talk about their [00:12:00] grief, but I just don't feel they're heard. And I think that they're so frequently shut down.

In a space like this, at an adoption conference, It's amazing the different conversations you walk up on the way that people are willing to share their story and talk over lunch or talk in the lobby and kind of dive into their grief because it's such a safe space. And my frustration is that the world is not that safe of a space for them.

We have to come together away from the rest of society and, exclusive way so that we can have safe space to talk about this. And I don't know, my biggest takeaway from this is that everyone needs to go to an adoption conference. Not just first parents, not just adoptees. Definitely adoptive parents, definitely pastors.

I think, there's this assumption with any kind of a conference that, oh, I wouldn't go to an accounting conference because I'm not an accountant. But, accounting doesn't really enter my life very often. But the reality is, there are millions of first parents and adoptees there are millions of people on earth that are experiencing these [00:13:00] losses that have experienced it, that endure the suffering and the grief and the trauma every day.

And the rest of society interacts with us, but doesn't acknowledge that grief as easily as they may other griefs and traumas that other people experience, which I also recognize. Other people experience grief and trauma in many ways. And we've talked about this many times, for some reason adoption, under the umbrella of adoption, it's so difficult for society to acknowledge that kind of grief and trauma.

And so I think everyone needs to go to an adoption conference. I would start with pastors. I think that our pastors need to come to these adoption conferences. If they're going to preach about adoption, if they're going to talk about adoption in their churches, they need to come here first.

Haley Radke: Well said.Is there anything else that you want to share?

Reshma McClintock: I would only share that adoption conferences are hard it's a very raw as I said before, very vulnerable place to be. There's a lot of diving in to some untapped emotions or some purposely intentionally buried [00:14:00] emotions. And it's really hard, so I keep saying we're all going to have kind of an adoption hangover next week.

It's a lot to process, and you have to be really careful with yourself. So while I do recommend everyone in the world go to an adoption conference for those specifically affected by the trauma. It's a lot. And, I would venture to say that our pastors would also have an adoption hangover. And I think that the church needs that.

I think we need to pause. And stop and really look at all of this. It can be really difficult, but it is a really fruit bearing thing, I believe, when we are vulnerable and we share our experiences. I think, overall, it's good, it's very hard, it's difficult, but overall it's very good and beneficial.

Haley Radke: Can you, last question, can you just tell us a little bit about Dear Adoption?

Reshma McClintock: Dear Adoption. com is a website I created as a platform for adoptees to share their stories, to share their grief, their joys to expand on their losses. The reason I started it initially is because I noticed a trend.

It took me a long time to notice it, [00:15:00] frankly, because I was so heavily fogged. But I noticed a trend a very obvious trend, that when an adoptee begins to share their story, they're very quickly dismissed and very quickly silenced and I started receiving emails and messages on Facebook and social media from adoptees saying, I'm trying to share my story.

I try to tell people but nobody will listen. I just don't feel like I have a space to do that and I wanted to have a website and there are many websites. I'm a fan of everybody, but I wanted to have a space. I wanted to do my part to create a space. For adoptees exclusively to share for us to find resources that are created by adoptees.

And so we promote everyone's podcast Adoptees On, we love Adoptees On we put, we promote all adoptee driven blogs, podcasts, websites, books, all of that kind of stuff, because I just want I think one of the biggest things about Dear Adoption is [00:16:00] that we say our tagline is giving voice to those most affected by adoption, adoptees. And I truly believe that. I think adoption, has this major rippling effect and obviously it affects parents who have lost their children to adoption and it affects adoptees in the triad. Adoptees are the only group of people who had no say, who've had no voice. And I think it's really important that we elevate the adoptee voice to the top, frankly.

So that's the point behind that and it's been really amazing. I have learned so much from the posts at Dear Adoption and it's, it can be really difficult to read at times, but it is so important that we stop and listen and I cannot tell you how much I've learned. I'm so thankful to those who have been so willing to be vulnerable and to all those to come who are going to be willing to be vulnerable And for other people who are listening and actually absorbing and hearing what we're saying without the pushback[00:17:00]

Haley Radke: Okay, can you tell us who you are in relation to adoption and what brought you to this retreat?

Anonymous 2: I am an adoptee and a first mom And I came to, this is my first retreat, and I came just to meet so many of the people that I've known over the internet.

Haley Radke: And do you have any big takeaways, things that you've learned over this weekend?

Anonymous 2: I just really noticed how valuable it is to have these relationships with people to know them and meet them in person, and just to know that you're not alone out there in your feelings. And then just to have time to just sit and share our stories. It's really special.

Haley Radke: Is there anything that you wish the general population knew about adoption?

Anonymous 2: I don't think, I don't think that society understands that it's not always this beautiful happy ending, selfless story. And a lot of people are walking around just [00:18:00] in a lot of pain and they're trying to deal with loss for the rest of their lives. So I wish that people could understand it's. It's so much more than just creating a family.

Jennifer Fredericksen: My name is Jennifer Fredrickson and I am a grandmother of loss.

Haley Radke: And what brought you to this retreat?

Jennifer Fredericksen: Because I wanted to see my friends.

Haley Radke: Internet friends in real life.

Jennifer Fredericksen: Friends in my life and hang out and no, I'm just kidding. That was really the answer.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any big takeaways from this weekend? Anything that you learned that you didn't know before or that got you just fired up?

Jennifer Fredericksen: The thing that I really realized for myself was I have trauma in my own life to handle before I handle this adoption trauma around me. That's pretty much the thing. I really recognized.

Haley Radke: Okay That's big.

Jennifer Fredericksen: Yeah. [00:19:00]

Haley Radke: Is there anything that you think you know, society has misconceptions about adoption, you know that but what do you wish people knew about adoption?

Jennifer Fredericksen: I want people to know that when you release a family member to strangers, you will miss that family member forever.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Thank you.

Jennifer Fredericksen: It doesn't go away. And they're your family. You can't get them back. Ever the way they were supposed to be.

Haley Radke: Like what did I tell you guys? Can you imagine being me and asking what I think is a simple question and you know you hear these heartbreaking moments so I'm so glad I got to do that for you. The live videos are way more fun. And not so emotional. I do have two more adoptees to hear from. Here they are.

Anonymous 3: I'm [00:20:00] a Cologne based photographer, activist, and international adoptee. Right now I'm starting a project where I will take photographs of Colombian first mothers. Like for most of us, my mother was erased on my birth certificate and illegal fiction denies her existence. But we as adoptees are the living proof that those women do exist.

I never knew anything validated about my own mother, but I know that we need our mothers to be present in our lives. In my project I want to show their faces and their stories, so despite any language barrier or distance, they cannot be overseen anymore. The next two days I will still be crowdfunding my project.

No mother, No Child on Kickstarter. As a community, we can do great, so please make sure to make any donation you can afford to make this really happen and to make our mothers visible again.

Haley Radke: Okay, that's the [00:21:00] first one. If you want to support this Kickstarter project, go over to kickstarter.com and search No mother, as in N O No Mother, No Child. And you will see her project there. And if you feel called to support her, go ahead and do that. That would be awesome. I love supporting fellow adoptees here. And, speaking of, here is the next clip.

Rebekah Henson: Did you hit record already?

Mary Anna King: I did.

That's me and my sister Rebekah. We are two of a set of seven biological siblings who were adopted by five different families and grew up apart.

This was recorded one night a couple of summers ago on the one and only time that all of my siblings and I have been in the same place at the same time. If you've ever wondered what a reunion 30 years in the making sounds like, I'll play it for you, [00:22:00] but you might want to turn down your sound for a couple of seconds.

Alright, everybody in! Yay! Oh my god! We're all together for the first time. That's insane. On paper, my mother is my sister, my brother is my nephew, and four of my five sisters are strangers to me. Bastards is the true story of my journey to finding them. And myself, again, it's available at a bookstore near you.

And until October 17th, you can purchase the ebook for 1. 99. Thanks Haley and Adoptees On for elevating adoptee voices.

Haley Radke: Thanks Mary Anna. If you want to go back and listen to Mary Anna's episode. I interviewed her in Season 1, Episode 7, and she shares a little bit more about her story there. And then I also got a chance to interview Rebekah, one of Mary Anna's sisters.

And she, her episode is Season 2, [00:23:00] Episode 9. So if you want to get a taste from another perspective of Mary Anna's siblings, you can listen in on Rebekah's story. I just want to say that I got to meet a ton of listeners at the retreat and that was so fun. I told my husband, this is the good kind of famous, now this is in quotation marks famous.

Okay guys. I know I'm just a podcaster. I totally get that. No one will ever recognize me at the grocery store, but when I'm at an event like this, I do have people come up to me and say, are you Haley? Which I mean, I'm just being super honest. It feels really nice and like humbling. It's very fun.

So I had a bunch of listeners come up to me and I got to meet some patreon supporters in real life, which was also amazing. And so I have this group of people who support the show monthly and Patreon is a website that [00:24:00] takes monthly pledges. And as a thank you, I have an Adoptees On secret Facebook group, which is growing and has really had this amazing community come together. It's just been so special to see so I just want to thank you guys so much for standing with me, partnering with me and making it possible, like actually literally possible for me to keep podcasting and sharing these shows with you. So thank you so much.

If you want to join and partner with me and help keep adoptee voices loud and getting out there into the world. Go to adopteeson.com/partner and you'll get all the details there. Very last thing before I say goodbye for today, would you tell one person about Adoptees On? If you are able to, you can show them how to subscribe on their phone and how to download episodes [00:25:00] over wifi so they can listen on their commute or running or whenever you listen, do you listen when you do the dishes?

I love doing the dishes and listening to podcasts. That's one of my favorite things. Not doing dishes, listening to podcasts. When I do chores. So I would love it if you would share the show with one person in that way. That would mean so much to me. And thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

42 Tracy - I Was a Disappointment to Her

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/42

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 3: Tracy. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, we discuss what happens when you search for your origins and find out you're too late. Tracy shares some painful stories about what her childhood experience of growing up with a narcissistic mother was like, and we wrap up with a great discussion about fostering creativity in ourselves and how that can lead to resilience and move us towards healing.

As always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Tracy Aabey-Hammond. Welcome to the show, Tracy.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Hi, Haley. I'm really excited to be here and thank you for the opportunity.

Haley Radke: Oh, I'm so excited to chat with you. You are a metalsmith and you make the most beautiful adoption pendants. I'm wearing it right now and I've had so many compliments on it. So we'll get to that in a bit, but I just would love it if you would share your story with us.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: I'm a Baby Scoop Era adoptee. I did not have the best home. It was an abusive home. I haven't had any contact with my adoptive parents since 2006, when they disowned me. I did enter into reunion with my family in 2013. Unfortunately, both of my parents were dead by then. My mother had died in her 50s, from cancer.

My father tragically died at the age of 25, in 1972, when I was only 2 years old. But, with that, I did come into a large— (on my mother's side), a very large family. My mom was the eldest of seven. I've been welcomed by all of my aunts, and uncles, and cousins. On my paternal side, it's a little bit more tragic. I only have one surviving uncle and a couple of cousins.

With my paternal family, I am a first generation American. My father was actually born in Germany, post World War II. My paternal grandparents were both inmates at Dachau Concentration Camp. So, for family history, you know, it kind of is difficult. There isn't much there. World War II really kind of decimated Poland and Germany. My family is from what is now Belarus, which is south of Minsk, and it's, you know, not exactly your “Johnny knocked up Mary Jane at the prom" kind of adoption story by any means.

It is what it is. We never know when we seek out in reunion what we will find. But there are always lessons that we can learn. And for me, it's been about resilience.

Haley Radke: How did you search and how did you find?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: I'm lucky. I'm from Illinois, which in 2010, opened up sealed birth certificates for adoptees (the original birth certificates). So mine was unsealed, but I had contacted the adoption agency that I came from (which is The Cradle in Evanston). Come to find out, I had contacted more background information, non-identifying information, and two of my aunts had left word that my mother had died, and left their contact information for me.

I ended up having to pay the adoption agency to find my father's family. And that took several months for them to do. They ended up being in Wisconsin, but it took them some time to track them down and get a response, because nobody knew about me.

Haley Radke: Oh, on your paternal side.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: On my paternal side. On my maternal side, my grandmother had made a point of telling each of her children about me. So I was never a secret. Everybody knew about me, but on my paternal side, my father was unaware that I existed. And, you know, he died in 1972. I was two years old. There was really no way for him to know.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So when you got your maternal information, you contacted your aunts?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. I was automatically— As soon as I had had that meeting with the facilitator of the adoption agency, she gave me one of my aunt's phone number, address, and email address, immediately (with the information that my mother was dead).

You know, I had a way to be able to contact somebody in my maternal family. But the funny thing was, is they wouldn't tell me my mother's name. It's comical, really, if you think about it. Where my aunts had left a release of information, but they still— The adoption agency still wouldn't tell me who my mother was, but they told me my aunt's name. And then I applied for my birth certificate.

Haley Radke: Of course! Why wouldn't it be that bizarre? Goodness.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: I know. I know. It was just kind of—I was just sort of puzzled. I'm like, “You're kidding me, right?”

“We can't tell you that.”

I'm like, “They sent you my mother's death certificate for a reason. You can't tell me her name on it?”

So I don't know. It's kind of… Adoption is quirky. And you know, I'm still shaking my head about that one.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Well, can I ask, how does it feel… I guess, what prompted your search? And then how does it feel when you find and they're both deceased?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: What prompted my search was— I was always going to search, but my adoptive mother was a roadblock. We had a very, I want to say, a relationship that was very strained and she was very controlling. She's a narcissist and she liked to control and destroy anything that had any meaning to me. So, I always knew that if I was going to seek out my biological family, that I would need to make sure that she wasn't involved.

When our relationship imploded in 2006, I gave it some time before I decided to make contact with my biological family, knowing that she would not take it well. If somehow our relationship were to be salvaged, (which I knew, you know, by that time, I knew it would not be). The modus operandi of that family was, if you stood up for yourself, they were done with you. If you complained about their behavior, or the way they acted towards you, they got rid of you. You were no longer their friend.

They would go through so many acquaintances, because somebody would object to the way that they were treating them and, you know, they would then end that friendship. And I watched them cycle through so many people because of that. So I knew when I stood up to them and I complained about their treatment, I knew that that would happen. So I gave it some time.

On Mother's Day in 2013, I went ahead and I filled out the paperwork to go ahead and get my non-identifying information and to just start. I wasn't even aware that OBCs had been released in Illinois, three years prior. So that's how it started.

And my husband had always been incredibly supportive. He'd always felt bad that I had done a lot of genealogy work for him over a decade (or even longer). And I traced his family down certain branches, hundreds and hundreds of years. And made all of these breakthroughs for him on some of his lines, going back, you know— He's a descendant of King Henry IV. His family never knew that. So he had always said to me, “When the time comes, if you want to search, you know, it'd be nice if you'd be able to make your own family tree.”

I just, you know, I just did it. I realized that my relationship with my adoptive family was over, and it was time to move on, and to find out who I really was. So when you get the information… Well, I had a very— It was shocking to hear that my mother was gone. I had always just thought that when I was ready, she would be there.

So the fact that she wasn't, was shocking and it was upsetting. You know, my mom died in 2001. I had left the state that my adoptive family lives in. They live in Illinois and I'd moved to Cincinnati, Ohio in 1997. So technically, I could have made contact and just kept them out of it, but I wasn't strong enough. So in that sense, you know, I did miss the opportunity to meet my mother.

So, when I meet adoptees who are hemming and hawing about reunion, you know, I use myself as a cautionary tale. I would honestly have one conversation and have my mother reject me, or at least be able to meet her once and have her reject me, than to never had the opportunity to actually meet her or speak to her.

Haley Radke: Was meeting your adoptee aunts any consolation? Did they fill in any blanks for you? How did that go?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. I mean, I'm embracing whatever family I have left. And yes, they have welcomed me with open arms. I've gotten, you know— I've attended family weddings. When different people have died in the family, somebody always makes a point to call me, let me know if there's going to be a funeral service, make sure that I know that I'm welcome to come out. Mundane things like a baby shower…

So you know, they've been very inclusive and very welcoming. So I'm very, very lucky in that sense. I know that a lot of adoptees have dealt with secondary rejection. And I consider myself to be very lucky. I haven't had to deal with that.

Haley Radke: Thanks for sharing about that. You mentioned that your adoptive mother was a narcissist. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? About your childhood and your interactions with her?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: It's an interesting story. My adoptive mother is in fact, herself, an adoptee (an inter-family adoptee). She was raised by her second cousin and she did not find out that she was adopted until she was 16. She was somewhat of a late discovery adoptee, too. And she had talked about, you know, how that felt, going to a family funeral and knowing that, like her grandfather was there (her biological grandfather). And that she was there with people who she was more closely related to.

And I think, you know, that that definitely played a part in her psychology. She actually met her— She had three biological siblings, and she was the only one who was adopted. What had happened was her father had been diagnosed with leukemia, and he was dying. And his wife was pregnant at the time, and they had already had three children. And he talked his wife into surrendering my adoptive mother to his first cousin. He had said, you know, “Mildred has never been able to have kids. Give the baby to Mildred.”

She went ahead and she surrendered. So the other kept siblings had known that their mom was pregnant and then suddenly, you know, she wasn't. And the baby disappeared. She went back on to marry again and have another child. And I knew my mother had hard feelings because, you know, she wasn't the only child. She was the only child that had been surrendered. She wasn't kept.

So I, as a 9 or 10 year old, I was able to sit back and see her reunion. I was there in the room when she met her mother and her grandmother for the first time. Her mother was kind of cold towards her, and had made the comment that, “Curiosity killed the cat,” to my mother (in relation to seeking them out).

So that, you know… I was 9 or 10. So that really left an impression. I think that that kind of was in the back of my head, coming to my own reunion. And maybe why I delayed, you know, making sure that I was ready, because, you know, I saw that.

On the other hand, her grandmother was hysterical, and would talk about her daughter. She would say, “She enjoyed having sex, but she didn't necessarily like the children that came with it.” So, Grandma Bentley was quite a character. And she'd always tell it like it was (to very impressionable 9 or 10 year old ears).

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: I know. So, with my mother… Basically, they had tried for many years to have children. They ended up adopting my brother first, and then six years later, me.

I was a disappointment to her from the very beginning, whereas my adopted brother was an easy, carefree baby. He only cried when he was tired or hungry. I came and I was already, you know, damaged goods. I had been sitting in the adoption agency nursery for a couple of months. I had had surgery for an umbilical hernia. So I was a couple months old by the time I came to them.

And as my mother had (my adoptive mother) had put it, you know, I cried constantly. And I was a bad baby and whatnot. So our relationship sort of started off tenuous, where I really wasn't what she wanted. And she had talked about the fact that she had thought about taking me back to the adoption agency when I was older. So it was kind of like that kind of relationship: love/hate.

Haley Radke: When you say you were older (when she was talking about bringing you back to the agency), how old were you?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Well, she had told me that she had thought about it when I was an infant, but she disclosed this to me, I was probably about like 9 or 10 or 11. Some of the things that they would do to me would be, when I was about 10 years old, I started having issues in school. I was diagnosed with learning disabilities. I was like a poster child for adoption issues. If it's on a list, I've kind of exhibited it.

When I was about 9, 10 years old, my adoptive mother— I was going through a little bit of separation anxiety, a fear of getting separated or lost from them when we were in public. And she was really annoyed by it. So she felt the best way to deal with that would be to teach me a lesson. And we were in a mall parking lot. She tapped my adoptive father on the shoulder and they ran ahead of me to the car, jumped in, locked the doors, and drove off. And left me in the parking lot. So I just stood there, right where they had been.

I didn't really think that they were going to leave and they did. Five, ten minutes passes… And I'm running through my mind, Do I know where I am? I'd taken the bus once with my adoptive brother to the mall. I was at a different mall, but I knew that if I could find a bus station, I could make my way home because I knew there was a bus stop near the house. I didn't have any money on me.

I'm kind of running through all of these things, and I'm kind of disassociating. I'm not crying. I'm keeping it together, but a lot of things are running through my head. And they come back. And as they drive up, they unlock the door and let me in. And when I open that door, I'm greeted with the sound of laughter. They think this is the funniest thing that they've ever done.

You know, I tried to express the fact that I was really upset. I was always dismissed about my feelings. After this incident, I made sure that I saved any money I got, and I would carry it on me in case I would need to find my own way home.

They continued to try to abandon me in parking lots, but they only successfully drove off that one time. So, there were a lot of memories of them locking me out of the car, and me banging on the windows, begging to be let in. Eventually, they gave up on it. That's kind of like when things were really starting to go south. And I was about 9, 10 years old.

You know, to hear my adoptive mother tell it, “Well, we only left you once.”

“But you kept trying to do it. It was wrong.”

There are so many little incidents like that that just compile. So many, “Well, I only did it once.” But they just add up.

On my blog that I have, I've got a story. It's called “Tanning Beds and Fainting Spells.” And when I was in junior high, I cut my arm in a department store on a glass shelf. I brushed up against it and hit a chip out of it. And as I brought my arm up, I realized that it was much more serious than just a scratch. It actually cut down to the bone. It was about an inch-and-a-half to two-inch long wound that was very deep. And there was a vein running across my bone, and that was obviously an artery that kind of nicked it.

My adoptive mother was angry at me for getting hurt. Opted not for medical care in the form of an ambulance, but had decided that the store would pay for me to go to the doctor. Took that form, and then she says to me, “I've got this tanning appointment I don't want to miss. I'll take you to the doctor after I'm done. You're sure you don't feel anything?”

It had severed, you know, it was a very deep wound, and it had severed nerves. So I really didn't have any pain associated with the wound. I don't feel anything. So she sits me down in a chair for the next 45 minutes. She's tanning, you know, and I've got some napkins on my arm. I'm bleeding. She gets done.

We drive to the doctor's office. It's three o'clock. They're booked. We're gonna have to wait like 45 minutes to an hour. She doesn't want to wait. She looks at me and she's like, “Do you want stitches?” Obviously, she doesn't want me to get stitches. And I'm 12 and I'm thinking it's probably gonna hurt. “Okay...No. Is that the right answer?”

So we leave the doctor's office. I'm never examined by the doctor. I don't get any stitches. I don't get any kind of medical care. She takes me to the pharmacy. I end up paying for my own butterfly bandages and some Band-Aids, big Band-Aids. And that's like the extent of the medical care I get.

We go out to the car. And we get in and suddenly she has to lay down, because she's feeling faint because she doesn't handle medical issues very well. And I give her my best, You've got to be freaking kidding me look. So we're sitting there waiting while she recovers from her vapors. That was my adoptive mother, in a nutshell.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: So, on my blog, there's a number of different stories, and people can read through them. I tried to take a humorous spin on it.

Haley Radke: How else can you look at it? You'd just be in a pit of despair.

Oh my goodness. I'm just sitting here in just, like, shock and disbelief. I'm so sorry you went through that. No words. No words I can say that are appropriate. Wow, wow.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, it is kind of, you know, you're just kind of, shake your head… And that was her and, you know, there's lots more stories that are on the blog. Some a little bit more graphic, some a little bit more violent, but you know, there's little vignettes of, you know, what it was like.

Haley Radke: Well, and it's interesting that you say that she's an adoptee also, because I've heard from many adoptees that were adopted by narcissistic mothers (in particular). So that's really interesting.

Okay, I'd love it if we could shift and talk about your creative work. So, you're a metalsmith. And like I said at the top, I have this beautiful pendant that you made.

Would you tell us a little bit about it? How you came up with the idea and, yeah, just kind of tell us a bit about your work?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. The adoption loss pendant. Several years ago, Kay Jewelers came out with an ad featuring one of those open heart pendants, but it was for an adoption gift. And the ad primarily focused on adoptive parents receiving this brand new spanking baby.

What the ad didn't show was anybody else. There was nothing else included. There was no first family, nothing. It was like this child just dropped down out of nowhere. And they completely ignored anything else other than these adoptive parents with this new, fresh baby. As a jeweler, I thought to myself, That's really tacky. Talk about adoption propaganda. We're just looking at this very single-sidedly.

I think it was on Claudia Corrigan D’Arcy’s site that they were talking about it. And a lot of first mothers were giving their input. And they were talking about, “Really, it should be a smashed up heart, a big chunk missing out of it.” And it sort of gave me inspiration, an emotional inspiration.

And I went into my studio and I pulled some components out of my scrap silver bag, things that were bound to be melted down and turned back into silver sheets. And I went rummaging through my silver scrap bag. And I had a heart that I kind of melted part of, and I had a broken setting for a trillion stone (which is featured in the pendants now). And I went ahead, and I went to work. And I compiled the components, and distressed it with a hammer, and sawed out, you know, cracks, took a chunk out of it.

The original pendant wasn't even a functional piece of jewelry, it was more a conceptual art statement because it was missing prongs. So I took, I created this, I really didn't even polish it. It's very raw, very rough. And I took a photo of it and I posted on Claudia's page and I said, “I give you the adoption pendant.”

And it was a visceral reaction from all of these first mothers and adoptees. They loved it. They loved it, because it was a physical representation of their internalized pain. And I was kind of blown away, because for me it was just sort of a conceptual art piece. It really wasn't meant to be a functional piece of jewelry. So people started asking within the hour if they could buy one.

And I took a look at the supplies I had on hand and I said, “Okay, I can do this. I can make a limited run of them. I have enough to make 20. I'll make 20 of these for you. It's going to take me some time. I have to go back into the studio, and I have to make this a functional, wearable piece of art, where the stone isn't going to fall out, and it isn't going to jab you to death.”

And I made the first 20, and that's all I was going to do. And the outpouring, it was incredible. People wanted them. So, I went ahead and despite there being some negative feedback about the pendant, the people who it actually meant the most to (the first mothers, the adoptees), they were the people that I was listening to.

It was everybody else in the adoption community: the adoptive parents, the adoptive professionals that were kind of negative about it. I just filtered them out and focused in on the core group, who the pendant would really speak to, and who it represented.

There's a lot of symbolism in the pendant. It's been hammered, it's got cracks in it. There's a chunk missing out of it, and that chunk actually represents the loss of a child for the first mother. I use (for the bulk of them), a trillion cut stone, which is a triangle cut. And I've got that, that's to represent the triad (that adoption's supposed to be).

I've got the stone put into the setting askew. It isn't set properly. It's kind of set sideways. Normally the points of the stone, the prongs cup it. Well I've got the prongs cupping the side, the long sides of the stone. So it's in backwards, basically. And that's to represent adoptees who feel like they don't really fit in with their adopted family, or the world (due to the loss of their identity).

One of the things that I had done— (because I really wasn't expecting people to want a pendant that wasn't perfect. When you're a metalsmith, it's all about buffing out scratches and making things beautiful). So this was such an imperfect item. I really was kind of blown away that people wanted it. And I've actually had requests for them to be beat up more. If something, if it isn't beat up more, if it isn't tarnished enough, occasionally I'll hear from somebody that they want it more beat up. They want it more tarnished, and I do aim to please.

I will beat the heck out of it for you, but… So the pendant kind of took off, by surprise. And one of the things that I wanted to do, is I wanted to make sure that the portion of the proceeds would go to an adoptee-related cause. Originally I was giving a portion of the proceeds to the Adoptee Rights Coalition. When SOS came about, it really spoke to me, knowing that my own mother, (had she had a resource like SOS), would have been able to keep and parent me. So a portion of the proceeds from my every pendant goes to SOS now.

Haley Radke: So that's SOS Adoption, which is run by Lynn Johnson, and it's a family preservation organization. And she helps mothers in temporary crisis realize that they can parent. And she has sisters on the ground in different states that she can ask to come in and bring some, you know, baby supplies if they need a diaper bag. Or I know she's given some money if there's a need for a new car seat or anything that the reason that they're in that crisis situation, (it's a temporary crisis), to help them decide that they can parent.

They're doing awesome work. Awesome work. Thank you. That's amazing. I love that you give a portion to them.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: It's a great organization. What I love especially is that they will help a first parent out dealing with the adoptive parents, or even the adoption agency. That they will step in and help you to deal with that.

Haley Radke: Right. Often these mothers that are in temporary crisis have already made an adoption plan. They're already working with an agency. They may have already placed their baby and Lynn will (like you said), she helps them do all the steps that they need to do within the law to get their baby back and/or to not place.

Because often, if an agency has given any sort of financial support to this expectant mother and the expectant mother changes their mind, the agency will come after them. And it's a very— it's all deceptive. It's such ugly, ugly stuff. And Lynn does an amazing job standing up, like helping these mothers stand up for themselves and say the things that legally they need to do to have the adoption stopped or reversed, whatever (depending on the state, right?).

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Exactly. And there's so much coercion that goes on, especially if, you know, a mother is in the middle of an adoption plan and she changes her mind. A lot of agencies and potential adoptive parents will then say or do anything that they need to get her to change her mind back. Or put her into—turn the thumbscrews on her, with threat of a legal lawsuit if she took support from them, whether or not it's legal to do that in a state or not. They'll threaten it, trying to force her.

So it's a really wonderful organization that really supports first mothers and really helps them to be able to successfully parent their children, if they decide to back out of an adoption plan.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's so great. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. I agree. Wonderful organization. I definitely support the work that Lynn is doing, and I'll put a link to the show notes for anyone that wants to go and make a contribution to SOS Adoption.

You can check out the Facebook page, because often, there will be a call for, like I said, “sisters on the ground.” So they might need somebody in Texas. So if you're in Texas, you can email and say, “Yes, I'm available. I can help.” So she's always looking for people, like volunteers, in that capacity.

Okay! So is there anything else you want to tell us about the adoption loss pendant before we move to the next section?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: If anybody wants to see them, they were featured in Flip the Script: Adult Adoptee Anthology. Both styles of pendants were featured in there, as art. I consider the pendants to be art pieces, not necessarily jewelry. They are handmade. Each is individual. So it really is a piece of art, versus a piece of jewelry.

Haley Radke: And you have all the different birthstones available.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, I have all of the birthstones, or I have alternatives for some of them (like a diamond). Having been working with metal, and jewelry, and gems for 15 years now, I have quite an inventory of gemstones, and cabochons, and whatnot. I'm like bordering on being a hoarder at this point.

Haley Radke: So basically, someone could get whatever they want set in there.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, basically if, you know, whatever gemstone they want. I most likely have one and can set it.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Well, I love scrolling through your Etsy store. So… Yeah, they’re just so moving.

Tracy, I would really like to talk to you about creativity and healing. So you mentioned while you were talking about your story, that you have all the things on the list that an adoptee could have, all the issues. You checked all the boxes.

So would you talk to us a little bit about how you feel using your creative artistic side has helped you heal certain areas? I know—we're all on the healing journey and we're not ever going to be 100% healed of our adoption trauma. But I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that, and any ideas you have for us that we could even… You know, some people are like, “Oh, I'm not really creative. I don't really… Oh, it's not really my thing.”

But any ideas you have for us to get started in that kind of area?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Oh, absolutely. For me, creativity and art has always been part of my life. My biological mother, first mother, loved the Art Institute of Chicago. I must have, in utero, really absorbed the paintings and art. Because I've always been highly creative, and really worked in many mediums from photography, to pottery, metalsmithing, painting, drawing, jewelry. And metalsmithing is really kind of where my passion settled.

But for me, art has always been a safe place that I can go and retreat from the world. Anywhere I have ever lived, I always make sure that I have a creative space. It doesn't have to be very big, but it does need to be a space that's only dedicated to creativity, to whatever art form you're going to choose. Make sure that you've got your supplies there, that you have good lighting. No clutter, nothing else from your life there. Maybe some plants by a window if possible. And just basically a space that's only dedicated to that.

One of the biggest things to keep in mind is that perfection doesn't exist. That's a fallacy. There is no such thing as perfection in nature. There are no straight lines in nature. So, if you're going to be creative, you need to silence your inner critic. Forget about anything being perfect, and just dedicate yourself solely to the task at hand.

The American Art Therapy Association talks about art that can unlock emotional expression by facilitating nonverbal communication. Visual imagery is the foundation of art therapy. Art allows you to focus emotions into a safe creative space. So much of our issues, so much of our trauma is internalized from adoption. By being able to channel that into art, being able to express those nonverbal emotions and feelings (a lot of it's pre-verbal, because we were infants), really allows you to be able to channel and express that in a very productive, safe way.

Nobody's going to be able to judge you. You don't have to worry about, you know, anybody saying anything to you. You can literally just put it on the canvas, or do it in clay, or, you know, in a sketchbook. Whatever media speaks to you. And basically, it's for you, this art.

You don't have to worry about somebody else seeing it. Don't worry if you can't draw very well. Carlynne Hershberger is another artist in the adoptee community. She's a painter, illustrator, and she teaches art. And one of the things that she'll do, is she'll just throw paint at a canvas, (literally). And whatever happens, happens. It might be good, it might be bad. She doesn't even think about it. She's just having that explosion of creative force.

When I made the adoption pendant, it was an explosion of creative force that I exerted. I didn't care what it looked like; I wasn't concentrating on that. I was just expressing the emotions that I felt. I just disconnected from my inner critic, and just made it. And I think that that is where the healing begins, that you're able to just express that like in a free form.

Not focusing on whether you're any good, if you have any ability. That isn't the point. The point is just to create, and create from deep down inside you. To be able to grab those emotions that you're feeling, and force them out onto the paper, onto the canvas, into the clay—into whatever media you choose. To me, when I think of art therapy, to me, that's what I think of. I don't know if that's technically the definition (clinically), but that's how I think of it.

Getting inspiration can be really hard. I know that I go through my dry spells, but some of the things are connecting with nature. Setting aside some time to meditate is important, because it quiets your mind. From failure comes success. You have to fail at something before you can succeed. And in order to create something, you have to destroy something. Those are kind of like the key things that I keep in the back of my mind when I'm in my workshop and I'm working.

I do deal with some semi precious metals and precious metals. So occasionally, you're under a little bit of pressure not to melt the gold or melt the silver while you're trying to solder it. So I have my scrap bags, and I just sort of let that go. Let that go, that that's my chosen medium, that it's kind of expensive, that I break gemstones setting them, you know, I crack stuff. I have killed tanzanite. I have killed rubies. It does come with its perils (my chosen medium that I work in), but it's just basically understanding that you are going to fail before you succeed and just accepting it.

Another thing is when you're focusing on whatever medium you're going to do, to just get up and walk away (if inspiration isn't coming to you). Get up, walk away, go outside, look at nature, look at what other artists are doing. So much of what I do, I get inspired by other artists. I get inspired by what they're doing. I get inspired by nature. I get inspired by my own emotions. So it's just finding something that will spur you on creatively, and just kind of grabbing onto that and using it.

Haley Radke: Those are all such amazing ideas. Thank you. And I love that thought of having a creative space that's just for sitting down and working on something, whatever it is, right? To have a space for it. That's a great idea. Thank you.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, you don't have to have… Like, you know, I have a pretty decently sized workshop/studio. And I have a lot of equipment, and really, you don't need anything that large. For the longest time, I just had kind of like a drafting table in the corner, where I could kind of draw.

Now, I really don't draw very well. I really don't paint that very well. I'm a pretty good photographer, and I do really well with ceramics and stuff. But you kind of have to map out what you're gonna do. I draw, but that's just for me as a map of what I'm gonna do.

But I don't really focus much on how well I'm able to draw, or sketch, or anything like that. One upside for me is I get to play with fire. So, I have a lot of, you know, I have a lot of hammers and stuff, and I have like a twenty-pound anvil. So, I really am able to just kind of beat the crap out of metal, and play with fire, and enjoy myself (especially if I'm frustrated).

Haley Radke: That sounds amazing. So, that's a good reason to get into metalsmith working— How do you say that, metalsmithing?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Metalsmithing. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Great reason. Fire and hammers.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Fire, hammers, you know, a boiling pot of acid. Gotta have a boiling pot of acid.

Haley Radke: Wow. It sounds like if I'm going to get into this, I'm going to have to wait until my kids are just a smidge older. They're very tiny at the moment. So…

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. And you're gonna need to invest some money in some equipment, because unfortunately nothing comes cheaply. Some of the hammers I have, you know, they're like $80, $90 a pop (some texturing hammers). And those are the more inexpensive tools that I have.

The torch setup that I have was around like $400. I have a rolling mill. I got a bonus from work and I bought that. Rolling mills can be very, very pricey. So it's not for the faint of heart by any means.

Haley Radke; Okay. So maybe I will start with something a little less spendy for my first,

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, go to Michael's when they've got a 50% off and just sort of delve into something a little bit on the easier side before you start, you know, making investment.

Haley Radke: That is good advice, too. Well, Tracy, thank you so much for your time. Is there anything else that you want to touch on with us before I let everyone know how to get in touch with you?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: No, I think we've covered just about everything. And just to encourage everybody to go ahead and just create. Just to silence your inner critic. Just go ahead and be creative. It can be very healing.

I consider myself not to have come from the best situation, or have the best adoption story. I've managed to survive. I'm still here, still standing, still functioning. And some of it is genetics. My grandparents survived Dachau concentration camp, but the other part of it is how I deal with the emotions that I feel, the trauma that I've suffered, and how I express it and how I deal with it. And it's, you know, turning it into productive, creative, safe energies (rather than destructive).

Haley Radke: What a wonderful way to wrap up. Thank you.

Where can we connect with you online, Tracy? You have your Etsy shop?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yes, I do. If you go to Etsy, you can just search Tracy'sGemShop as one word and it'll come up. My email address is Tracy@tracysgemshop.com. It's all one word and it's T-r-a-c-y. And, also on Facebook, there's a Tracy's Gem Shop Facebook page.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. I will link to all of those things in the show notes. So, you can go and buy an adoption loss pendant if there's one that you see that really speaks to you. Like I said, I just love mine and hearing you talk more about it, I'm like, Oh my goodness. I feel like I need more of them. Do you have anyone that has a collection ?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Recently… Well, I've had people who have bought like multiples and their first mothers who have lost multiple children to adoption, which is really sad.

And unfortunately I've had to— (through people asking, actually) I created, it's two hearts, soldered together. Two broken hearts, soldered together to represent two children, which is incredibly sad. In some cases, I've put, you know, multiple stones on the pendant. My own adoption loss pendant (it's a larger size one), and I have a ruby to represent me. I have a demantoid garnet to represent my father, and a diamond to represent my mother, on mine. So I have three stones on mine. But yeah, there are people who have purchased more than one.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us, for telling us about the pendant, and especially for all of those great ideas for how we can be creative and use that towards our healing.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed speaking with you and I hope that this makes an impact on people.

Haley Radke: Okay. Didn't that make you want to go to the store? And buy an anvil and a torch? Like I was close. I was close to going and buying those things.

I learned so much from my conversation with Tracy and she even gave me some extra tips about how to keep jewelry clean with a very surprising household cleaner. So listen all the way past the outro music if you want to hear her advice for you on that. It's funny. It's really clever.

This show is brought to you by my Patreon partners. Patreon is a website that allows creators like me to raise monthly support to help me keep producing content for you like this podcast. As a special thank you for a monthly pledge, I have a secret Facebook group for adoptees only, where we support each other through search and reunion issues, and all sorts of adoption-related things.

We get really real and talk about things we're struggling with. And it is incredible. Incredible, some of the people that have joined and have become so very dear to me. So come and join us. It's adopteeson.com/partner, where you'll find all the details. Thank you guys so much. I couldn't do the show without you.

I love hearing your voices. It's one of my favorite things. Okay, let's listen to this clip:

Jennifer Dyan Ghoston: Hi, Haley. This is Jennifer Dyan Ghoston. My book is entitled The Truth, So Far… a detective's journey to reunite with her birth family. As a Chicago police officer for over 27 years, and a detective for over 16, I began to ask the question, “How do you use a document like the amended birth certificate given to an adoptee as a legal representation of the entire truth?”

So for a five-year period toward the end of my career, I started the path of more self-discovery in my identity as an adoptee. It was quite therapeutic and healing as I moved closer to my truth of being relinquished at birth. It's my belief that through the sharing of my story, the adoption community (and adoptees, in particular), will be empowered and encouraged as they trust their journey.

Thank you for this opportunity to share a few words as a published author. I love your podcast Adoptees On and enjoy hearing from everyone. Continued success, and I'll be listening. Take good care.

Haley Radke: Thanks, Jennifer. You can find her book on Amazon or her website, which is jenniferdyanghoston.com. And if you're an adoptee and you want to share your work on the show, just like Jennifer did, head over to adopteeson.com/connect and click on that little microphone and you can send me an audio message.

I wonder if I could ask just one last favor. Would you share the show with a friend? Maybe it's a fellow adoptee who's been holding off on searching. They just don't know when the right time would be to dive in. Maybe hearing Tracy's call to action would inspire them to search. When you meet them next for coffee, ask for their phone and show them how to download the podcast.

I will be back with a new episode for you in two weeks. Next Friday, I'm going to be at the Concerned United Birth Parents Conference in California. And I hope to bring you some live reports from those sessions on the Facebook page. And I'm also going to be bringing back some live interviews to share on the podcast with you soon. If you're going to be at CUB next week, please come and find me and introduce yourself. I am a huge hugger. I will give you a big hug and I would love to meet you in real life.

So, thank you for listening and we'll talk again in two weeks.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: But my silver stays on all the time. I'll just pop it off and I'll use some light silver polish. It's a paste. You'll find it in the grocery store in the cleaning section and I'll just clean it. But I literally have jewelry that I've had on for decades, you know. The only time I'll take it off is to clean it.

Haley Radke: Well, there you go. What a great tip for me.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, just leave it on, but just every once in a while… And if you're going to clean gemstones, Mr. Clean, I don't know if you buy that to clean your floors with, but just plain old Mr. Clean, a couple of teaspoons or a tablespoon to a couple cups of water. Just let something soak in there and then just use a soft toothbrush (like a baby toothbrush) and just kind of give it a good scrub. And that will get all the gunk out from around the stone and then you can use the right silver polish on gold, too. I think my jewelry, probably… (it depends on if I'm putting on a lot of hand lotion or not), like once every six weeks or so.

Haley Radke: Yeah?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: It doesn't look good for me to have gunky jewelry on if somebody's going to be asking me about my work.

Haley Radke: It's your business. Yeah,

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Exactly. But no, it's meant to be worn, you should enjoy it.

Haley Radke: Well, I do. I put it on first thing and I take it off before bed, kind of thing. Like, that's really mostly what I do. It's a conversation starter now, right?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. The only thing that you have to be careful about peridot with is that it is a softer stone, so it can get scratched up more easily. But it's not like you're going to be filing with it on or anything like that.

Haley Radke: Right.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: And pearls. Pearls do require special care. But, for the most part, you can clean just about any stone using those two methods I told you, except, like, pearls you have to be careful of. Anything that could be, like, porous… But I can't think of anything that, other than pearls, that you would not want to use Mr. Clean and the polishing paste on.

Pretty much, those are the standard things that I use after I get done polishing jewelry, that I use. It's very low tech. I do not have an ultrasonic cleaner, because this will have a tendency if the stone has a fracture in it, it can make it worse. So, it's kind of like old school.

Haley Radke: I feel like I'm getting insider knowledge. I love this.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. Yeah. Jewelers like Mr. Clean to clean jewelry. We don't buy anything expensive. It comes right off the rack.

Haley Radke: This is so funny. I can use this as an outtake and I'll put it at the very end of the show and it's like, “Stay tuned for Cleaning Tips with Tracy.”

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah!

Haley Radke: I'm just kidding. I won't do that, but that would be funny.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: You actually can if you want to. I have a really good sense of humor. And I'll tell anybody who wants to listen, you know, how to take care of their jewelry. I'm a little bit of a geek about it, so…

Haley Radke: I can tell. [laughs]