47 Laura - The Adoption Museum Project

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/47

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is season 3, episode 8: Laura. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I introduce you to Laura Callen, the founder of the Adoption Museum Project.

Laura gives the most vivid recounting of a triggering situation that only another adopted person could understand. And we talk about that just really simple topic of dignity and justice in adoption.

With our season 3 theme of healing through creativity, Laura explains some of the different experimental ways she and her team are exploring the topic of adoption through arts and culture. We wrap up with recommended resources. And as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Laura Callen. Welcome, Laura.

Laura Callen: Thank you. It's really great to be here.

Haley Radke: Well, I would love if you would start off as all of my guests do, with sharing your story with us.

Laura Callen: My adoption was a pre-arranged adoption. So this was in 1969 and my first mother had arranged through Catholic Social Services to relinquish me for adoption. And this was in Michigan. And what I learned—and this was later on in the story as I was doing my search—but learned that I spent the first two weeks in foster care. And my understanding is that this was an individual woman who would foster babies in her home. And I spent, yeah, the first two weeks there and I have a letter that she wrote about me at that time. And that's the evidence that I have about those two weeks.

And it's still a mystery to me, why I was in foster care for those two weeks, because the adoption was pre-arranged. But I did go home to my adoptive parents. And I grew up with two brothers, so my older brother by two years and then a younger brother by five years. We were all adopted from different families and the kind of— Just to briefly share the narrative, I was told that I was adopted when I was five, and I have a really vivid memory of that moment. And I don't have a whole lot of memories from childhood, but this is one that I have always retained that my older brother and I were told that we were adopted (and this was a conversation with my mother).

And the reason that I know I was five, is because my younger brother was going to be coming home and so there needed to be an explanation for that. And it was a brief conversation and that was really the end of the conversation about adoption in my home, in my growing up. So it was not something that was discussed and I learned not to bring it up.

And not because it was said by my parents not to discuss it (and I think many adoptees have this experience), but in all the ways that we learn how not to ask questions and what things are out of bounds, I learned not to ask about this. So, I grew up not talking to my brothers about adoption, not ever meeting another adopted person (at least that I was aware of). And into my twenties, I didn't really consciously think about adoption in terms of what that meant for me, consciously wondering about that, talking to other people. And in my twenties, I did decide that perhaps adoption had something to do with who I am, and how I navigate the world, and how I have relationships, and make choices.

And so I decided to search. And I was really fortunate; I know that searching can often be a really long and painful process. And I was really fortunate to pretty quickly find both my first mother and first father. I think it took a little less than a year with the help of a Search Angel. I was able– I reached out to them, got in touch, and I learned that both of them (but at different points in time, unbeknownst to each other), had filed consent forms with the adoption agency.

And those consent forms, while they didn't give full identifying information, did indicate that if I was interested in finding them, they would be open to contact with me. So that psychological burden of not knowing whether they wanted to know me was removed. And that was really important, of course, for me. So I proceeded to reach out.

We had those first very thrilling, but awkward, and terrifying conversations on the phone. And I have remained in touch with my first father. We don't communicate very often, but we are in touch with each other. And in fact, I saw him last year in person and it was really lovely, actually.

And when I met my first mother, this is now… gosh, 16 years ago? (something like that) We continued to develop a really strong relationship. And we've worked at maintaining our relationship, and then navigating that. So I am certainly in touch with her. She actually moved from where she was living to where I am living about five years ago. So she lives about a mile down the road and is very involved in my life and my family's life. And, you know, what I can say beyond that is, I continue to actively experience being an adopted person.

And it's a cliché, perhaps, at this point, that we've all heard, that adoption is this lifelong experience. And it's also just really true (at least for me), and that there have been these points in my life where adoption has surfaced in a really big way that has meant that I've had to re-engage with it. And address whatever piece of it is up in that moment.

Haley Radke: Can you give an example of that?

Laura Callen: [laughs] I gave a very recent example of that yesterday. I have two children. They are my biological children. My son is 10 and my daughter is 8. And we've been talking about pets for a little while now. And my husband and I managed to put it off, and finally knew that it was time to say yes to a pet. And we decided that we were going to say yes to a couple of sweet pet mice, because that was better than a flying squirrel or a chinchilla.

So, I think somewhere in the back of my mind, I knew that having pets come into my home was going to trigger me in some way, but I didn't really give it a lot of thought. And my husband and my daughter came home with these two mice and I just slipped into this place, that I was really aware that this was touching that wound, right? And I just felt incredibly sad.

And I'm sure that my kids [were] somewhat puzzled by my reaction and what was going on. And I was trying to make it seem like it was not a big deal. But to be really specific, when we were trying to figure out who was going to actually go and pick up the mice and my kids had some other things that they were interested in doing that day, and they said, “Well, how about if you just go and get the mice, daddy? And we'll stay here?” And I was outraged by that. And I thought, You can't just say, “Bring me some mice.” And then they just appear in our house, like you've ordered them.

And it was just this— a reaction that was much bigger than it should have been. And of course, they're asking this very simple question and I'm seeing it through this lens of adoption. And then a couple hours later, my son is playing with the mice. And they have that plastic ball that you can put the mice inside of and then they can roll around inside of it. Truly one of the highlights of having pet mice!

And so my son is trying to put the mouse into the ball, and this tiny, furry, quivering creature keeps trying to climb back out. And my son keeps trying to put the mouse in, but he keeps trying to climb back out. And my heart is just breaking, and I'm saying to my son, “He doesn't want to go in the ball. You can't force him to go in the ball. Stop putting him in the ball.” Behind these words, right? Are just these intense feelings of me and what I imagine I might have been feeling or what other adopted people might be feeling when we don't have those words, and we're so vulnerable. So, that was just yesterday.

Haley Radke: I think that's the best description of a trigger I've ever heard. I mean, the most thorough. When you started, I was like, I don't understand. But I feel it. I feel it in my stomach right now. I started to just get feeling sicker and sicker as you kept describing it. And I totally understand. Isn't it amazing? Those little things that no one else in the world would know why you're feeling that way. But when you describe it like that, I'm like, Oh…

Did you share with your husband or your kids, why you were having that reaction?

Laura Callen: I haven't yet talked to my husband or my kids directly about my reaction, but I plan to. I've been practicing over the years to give myself pause and just give myself some time to think it through and reflect on, Gosh, what was going on? That's so interesting. And to also let myself feel whatever those feelings are before I want to engage with my family, or with a friend, or whoever it is, to talk about it.

This just happening yesterday, I figure, Yeah, sometime in the next few days I'll circle back and I'll have a conversation that I've had many times with my husband (and even with my kids) about this kind of process. So it is something that I try to do in my family. It's actually one of the ways that my first mother and I navigate our relationship, is by having this kind of very honest conversation about whatever has come up. And it's not always really heavy. Sometimes it's something we can laugh about, butI find that sometimes it feels a little bit like I've divorced myself.

But pushing myself to go back and to talk this through, particularly with the people who are very close to me has really been very helpful, but I do need to take some time, first, for myself.

Haley Radke: Okay, that sounds like a very healthy strategy. Can you tell us, how did you get to this place, where you can do that? Where you can pause, and look at the situation, and think, Okay, what is this bringing out for me? And having those steps and giving yourself permission to feel the feelings. That sounds like a really healthy place to be in.

Laura Callen: I have the ability to do that, to be really skillful with it. It has been very hard earned. Even though I can do it sometimes, I still don't do it all the time. And I screw up in so many ways, and regret so many moments. You know, what I can say is that it has only been in the last two years that I feel like I have been able to develop a couple of new skills that support me.

I would say that is largely a result of a couple of things: therapy since my twenties. When I did first decide to consciously think about and work on my adoption experience, and working on the Adoption Museum Project, and being diagnosed with dysthymia (which is a chronic depression), and choosing to take medication for that. And that was a profound step for me (not just the diagnosis), because I, in the end, had to diagnose myself, which is a whole, really difficult process to have gone through after years of therapy.

When you were reaching out to people who are professionals, and trained, and you're trusting that they see you and will offer you the right kind of help. But, once I realized what was going on for me (and had been going on for me for years and years, most of my life), and decided to take that step of taking medication, it was like the third leg of the stool. And it's really transformed my life.

Haley Radke: I'm so glad for you, that you've figured out that's something that will help you. And “the third leg of the stool,” that's a good picture for it. Yeah. So just the last two years then is when you feel like all of these things have come into place? Sorry, I should say all of the skills– you were talking about developing these skills to navigate different triggers, and all the special things that we adopted people have.

Laura Callen: Yeah, I think the therapy gave me a lot of practice with being able to develop a vocabulary around my ideas, and my feelings, and just being able to take a moment or an experience, and kind of run it through a mental filter. And to be able to go back and analyze what was going on in that moment.

And certainly just logging hours and hours, being listened to and heard by, seen (mostly) by somebody who, for the most part, could really understand what I was talking about. So I think those are some of the ways that therapy was really helpful to me. And the Museum Project has been— and most of this, really, I can only say in retrospect, how it has been, right? Because when I started, I had no idea what it was going to become, and what it would mean for me personally, but the work has really helped me get more clear on what I believe and think about adoption.

It has been a way that out of necessity, I've developed my own voice, and had to articulate what are my opinions, and what is my point of view, and how am I going to interact with other people with respect to this topic.

Haley Radke: So you're talking about the Adoption Museum Project. Can you just tell us your relationship to that and what it is?

Laura Callen: I founded the Adoption Museum Project about six years ago. And this experiment (it is a giant experiment, because we're making it up. Nothing like this exists). The idea is that we can create space. And we talk about that in sort of two ways: of course, literal, physical space, as well as notional space, right? The space where our ideas and our feelings live.

But the idea of the project is that we need spaces where everybody, the public, whether you have adoption connection or not, that we need spaces where we can fully explore the whole story. And the whole story of adoption is something that we have to have if we're going to have justice in adoption.

This was really created as a social justice organization in the form of a museum, an institution that is developing arts and culture projects and programs. So that's the form that we're choosing to use to contribute to the ultimate goal of justice in adoption.

Haley Radke: Can you unpack that a little bit? What do you mean by justice in adoption?

Laura Callen: That small matter of justice in adoption? That's such a huge, complicated idea, isn't it? And all I can offer is my point of view and what the Adoption Museum Project sees around that. And I have incredible respect for many, many others who do work that is related to justice within adoption.

And there is, of course, a long history of people who've been involved in that work. And for my co-conspirators out there, when we talk about justice in adoption, we're referring to the idea that everybody involved in adoption should experience dignity and justice. So, one of the first kind of a premise in there that I want to point to, is that we believe that there is a place for some kind of social practice like adoption.

And there are people within the adoption community who are working to completely dismantle adoption, or to abolish adoption. And I think that's a completely valid objective for people to be fighting for, and a very valid point of view. It's not the one that we have. I think that there will always be some situation where a child does, in fact, need a family who is not their own biological family.

And I would want for there to be some solution for that child. So, part of our belief is that something like adoption needs to exist for those very rare situations, but it needs to be done in almost a completely different kind of way. And we-– you know, I think about this as a sort of a two step process, that we need to first reckon with how we have practiced adoption and how we currently practice adoption. And then we need to redesign.

And I think you cannot figure out what is that better way until you have first looked back at how we've been doing this, at the history of this practice, and we also sit with what's happening right now. So this idea of reckoning and redesigning is part of what we believe needs to happen, and then again going back to the way we see justice and adoption. And I talk about, “It's justice for everybody.” And by that, we mean: adopted people who are the most impacted, justice also for first and birth parents who we know are still quite silenced when we talk about adoption, and also justice when it comes to the parents who are raising adopted people.

I know that when I talk with folks (particularly folks who are activists in adoption), the idea that adoptive parents would experience some kind of injustice, it's really hard for some people to imagine that, or to agree with that, or see that. And so it's a really sensitive one, and so I want to explain what I mean by that. And then I want to go back and make sure that there is proper emphasis on adopted people and first birth parents.

But there are situations where adoptive parents are doing everything possible to move through this process in a thoughtful and ethical way. And other players in the system are doing things that are illegal, or unethical, or preventing the adoptive parents or prospective adoptive parents from doing what they know, and believe, and want to be doing as the right thing.

And then I also just believe that whatever happened through that process to adopt, once that child is placed in a family, we have every obligation to support that family. And I think there are still many ways in which adoptive families (and so now this includes, right, the adopted person, but especially when the child is young, it's the adoptive parents who are really on the front line of navigating services, and supports, and that sort of thing), but ways that they are not receiving the support that they need and ways that they are being stigmatized. I think that there are ways in which adoptive parents are harmed.

Now, I don't say that all of these three groups are having the same equal experience. I think adopted people and first birth parents are disproportionately harmed. And again, adopted people most directly. I don't think that we need to say everybody is on some kind of equal footing when it comes to who's having the least just experience.

I think, just objectively speaking, we know that adopted people and first birth parents are harmed in ways that adopted parents never will be. And there are absolutely obligations and responsibilities that adoptive parents have because of their power, privilege, and often because of their wealth, and in other ways.

But our view of getting to this redesigned practice is that it can never happen unless adoptive parents and prospective adoptive parents are part of it. I mean, you can't have systemic change in this system if you do not include that group. I won't go into the long lists here. I think probably your listeners are very familiar with it.

You could construct and then we have a long list of all the ways that adopted people are harmed—from lack of access to their birth records, to lack of citizenship, to disproportionately struggling with mental health, to not having their full identity, to all of the harms that adopted people experience.

And then we could go over and we could say here are all the ways that first parents are harmed, from coercion, to contact agreements that are not honored, to their struggles with mental health, and so on. And then again, moving over to adoptive parents. And I think—and this is really difficult to do, but if we can step back and look at this as a system that is made up of all these different actors, and what is going to have to change in order to change the system? What do each one of these actors need to do differently?

It's one of the reasons that the work that we're doing with the Adoption Museum Project is engaging, involving, speaking to, working with everybody who's involved in adoption. And that goes beyond, of course, adopted people, first parents, and adoptive parents, right? It includes (ultimately, as we move forward and have the resources), it includes agency professionals, and it includes policy makers, and the really long list of people who are involved in the practice of adoption.

Haley Radke: So as you're looking at this big—it's a big goal to reform the system, but looking at the Adoption Museum Project and the focus on expressing these things through arts and culture. And we've, you know, have this series on creativity and healing through creativity.

Can you talk a little bit about that? What are some of the ways that you are educating people about the history of adoption and about how adopted people are affected by the citizenship issue that's happening in the U.S. right now and et cetera. Can you talk a little bit about that in the creative space, the work you're doing there?

Laura Callen: And I do want to say as well that we have a very clear vision of what we believe should happen in adoption. And we also know that reforming the system, redesigning the system does not happen single handedly by anyone.

We're really clear that we have our piece and our contribution that we want to make, and even that work is highly collaborative. We don't do anything, really, entirely on our own. So we're just one of many individuals, organizations, coalitions that would have to work together to get to systemic change.

And our contribution is within this museum form, environments. And you know, “Why arts and culture?” Because these are different ways in to the adoption idea, to the adoption experience, that these are ways, when we're being our creative selves, that we can open up to ideas in a different kind of way. We can actually imagine what a redesigned practice of adoption might look like.

We also define creative space in arts and culture really broadly. For us, it's any form of human expression. And really, I think there are many museums today that could use that same definition. And we tend to use language that says, “This is an arts museum,” or “This is a science museum,” or we use that term, “culture.” And I think that tends to narrow the different types of activities and experiences that could happen inside of a museum space and again, in many cases, what is already happening inside of lots of museums.

So, it's exciting that any form of expression could be used to enter these questions about adoption, and sit with them, and explore them. So, whether that's visual art, or it's an oral history, or it's a panel discussion, or it's a dance performance, it's a dialogue…all of that counts. And all of these are different ways in, and so we've been experimenting, you know, in our six years of doing 20 plus projects. And we've tried to intentionally develop projects that use different formats so that we can learn, Oh what happens if we do a—have people visit an exhibition and then have a follow up workshop? Okay, now let's see what happens if we just do the public program part. Okay, now let's see what happens if we do something just online.

So we're always looking to experiment with these different formats. And each one offers different opportunities for people. And because adoption is such a— has extreme diversity on every level and affects such an extraordinary diversity of people, it just follows that you would have to be, over time, offering a really diverse range of types of activities and experiences that would feel inviting and interesting to people.

Our upcoming project is happening in Minneapolis. There's going to be an event on December 12th in Minneapolis called Conjuring Other Ways Home. And this is a culminating event. The series of three workshops that were done in November and the topic is Black Adoption. And we're doing this project in collaboration with an amazing organization, Black Table Arts, which is run by a genius artist adoptee named Keno Evol. He's the founder and director of Black Table Arts. The workshops, we’re inviting anyone who identifies as Black and has an experience of adoption to attend a workshop and write poetry (specifically) with guidance and support from the community and from teaching artists.

And then the event that's happening on the 12th at the Illusion Theater in Minneapolis is going to be a community gathering. It's open to the public, including the family, kin, friends, allies of people who were in the workshops, and people who have an experience of Black adoption. And there'll be readings, and a panel discussion, and a chance for dialogue. So that's happening December 12th.

And we are in the midst of developing our next ambitious project, which is called History Lab. And History Lab is going to launch in the spring of 2018, and this is the beginning of a really exciting, enormous project to create an online public history of adoption, told through a lens of social justice. And we are going to start with something—

Haley Radke: I have goosebumps!

Laura Callen: Yeah, we're just so thrilled to be collaborating with so many brilliant people on this project, and how it started, and conversations with Ellen Herman (who created the Adoption History Project). But we're beginning with just one small piece that we're calling History Lab. And we felt that part of what we wanted to contribute with this particular history of adoption, because of course there are so many histories out there and each one is incredibly valuable. And we're doing something unique with ours. But we really wanted to begin by inviting the public to participate and to start talking with us about what could be in this history and to begin contributing even their artifacts.

Although to begin, we can't accept physical artifacts, but we'll be inviting people to submit descriptions and images. And so the idea is to begin by hearing from the public, and in particular, people who've experienced adoption. And when you become a member of the History Lab (it's free), you can start to work with us to really shape what this history is going to be about.

Haley Radke: You're talking about this and you're just glowing and you're so excited. Oh my goodness.

I'm so excited to see what this develops into, Laura. I mean, it's incredible. That's something that I feel like is so lacking in all of the activism space is just— I mean, we really only know about what's happening right now. And then a lot of us have heard about the 60s Scoop, but I don't know even personally, who started adoption and what did it used to look like, and who started foster care, and all of those things. So, I love that. I love that.

Laura Callen: Yeah, we have a real focus at the Adoption Museum Project on context, right? And so we talk a lot about the importance of the personal story, which you are right in that zone, right? One of the folks who is helping to surface individual stories of adoption, and we have to have that, and we need more.

And so there's this need for personal stories to continue to come to the surface. And at the same time, we feel that putting those stories in context is really also essential, and that the two really need to go hand in hand. But as we look out there in the big wide world of adoption, there's very little context. And for us, context is— Certainly there's historical context, and that's what the History Lab is focused on, but there's also the system. So, What is the system of adoption? Hm! Who's involved in that? How does that work? That kind of understanding is really missing, as well as the context of all these other social forces that are connected to adoption.

So adoption does not exist on its own in some sort of separate universe. It's inextricably connected to many, many other social issues and ideas, whether that's reproductive justice, or it's immigration, or it's race... The list is long. And so we think about, How can you architect an understanding of adoption that really just honors and values these personal stories, but in context? And we can't start working on all of those pieces at the same time, so we decided we're going to start with history.

But ultimately, and through our work going forward, we hold that view, that it has to be that we understand the history, the system, and the social forces. This is, of course, very long term work, and it's work that we will do with others, but we have to see that whole story before we'll fully understand what we are grappling with and what we need to fix.

We are going to be kicking off our end of the year fundraising campaign. It's called “The Whole Story Campaign,” and we're inviting everyone who believes in this work that we're doing to contribute at whatever level feels meaningful for them. So we will be sharing information and links through emails and through our newsletter and Facebook. Watch for that, and support us if you can.

Haley Radke: Well, for recommended resources, I mean we've already talked about this on the show before, but your newsletter, “The Adoption Museum Project Newsletter,” is incredible. I love how you find ways to highlight so many different things. So, events that are happening, or articles that have come out, or books, or just different people in the adoption community.

It's so well constructed. I just— I love it. I look forward to it. There's not many emails I look forward to receiving. Unsubscribe all the time, right? But yours is not one of them. I love getting it. So, of course we'll have links to all of these things, but it's super easy to subscribe to your newsletter, you just go to adoptionmuseumproject.org. And there's places all over that you can click on, just type your email in and get that.

So I'd recommend that people do that for sure. And check out the campaign, “The Whole Story” campaign. What a great name. Love that. Okay, what would you like to recommend to us?

Laura Callen: I now have to choose from my long list. I guess I'll have to put the things I can't say on air into my next newsletter. But I would recommend any poem. So I know that perhaps that's not playing by the rules, but I just find poetry, really any poem, to be incredibly valuable as a way of opening ourselves up to new ideas and possibilities.

It's almost like this way of letting yourself get disoriented and confused, but also a way that you can feel really seen and heard through poetry that I feel like no other form lets you do. But I will say that the most recent poet I have come across that I'm just, really have been captivated by, she's an adoptee, Marci Calabretta Cancio-Bello. And I just picked up her book, Hour of the Ox, and it's just gorgeous.

I finished, not too long ago, a book, The Next American Revolution, which is by Grace Lee Boggs. Just beloved social activist, and she's from my hometown of Detroit, Michigan. And I just find it incredibly inspiring reading for folks who are thinking about How can we change unjust systems?

I'll also suggest Rise magazine, and I came across this one not too long ago as well and I was just blown away. This is a magazine that is created by and for families whose children are in the child welfare system. And it's just an incredible window into an experience that I think we all… You know, we don't really think about very deeply. And to hear the experience written by the people who are having it is really, really an important perspective to hold.

Can I give one more?

Haley Radke: Yeah. I just want you to send me the whole list now because I just, these are so good.

Laura Callen: I do want to just try to support, one more time, the Adoptee Rights Campaign. We just did a project a couple of weeks ago supporting the work to change the law so that all adoptees receive citizenship. And there's still work to be done. This is not a foregone conclusion that somebody's going to just figure this out and come to the right conclusion and grant adoptee citizenship.

Haley Radke: Can you describe what you did, that project?

Laura Callen: The project was called Arts in Advocacy: Citizenship for All Adoptees. It was a very collaborative project. We were one of three organizations that were developing it. Magna Citizen Studios is the other organization, which is run by HyunJu Chappell, and she is an adoptee, and the Adoptee Rights Campaign. And it was a full day program of different activities at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts in San Francisco. So we had a screen printing workshop, where you could choose one of three screen print designs (designed by HyunJu), and they were about adoptee citizenship. There was a really incredible lineup of speakers, and poets, and educating people about the current issue with adoptee citizenship, and giving historical background, and sharing personal stories.

There was an exhibition, as well, created by HyunJu. So this was a day where it was open to the public. Anyone could drop in and they could learn about and engage with this in whatever way felt right to them. And it was just extraordinary to bring adoption and to bring this particular issue into a public space that would otherwise never have considered adoption or addressed this issue.

Haley Radke: Well, you sent me a little video clip that I just watched and it was so interesting. And one of the little snippet pieces was someone sticking this thing onto the wall, like a deckle. And it was just I think the words were “First deportation, because of this.”

I love that you invited the public. Most people don't know that there is this group of adoptees who were adopted internationally, came into the United States, and don't have citizenship. How do you not know that? It's mind boggling to me. Now, I'm up in Canada, so I am removed from this a bit, but yet I'm just, I'm heartbroken for my brothers and sisters down there who don't even have citizenship.

Laura Callen: Yeah, It's stunning, the lack of awareness of this issue. And I count myself among those people who didn't have any idea that this was the case, up until six months ago, eight months ago or so. And that is absolutely more than half the battle, simply making people aware that 5,000+ U.S. adoptees adopted from other countries do not have citizenship today.

And the moment you tell somebody that, they're shocked: “Can't believe it, that's just wrong. That needs to be changed.” So it's not that it would be hard to persuade someone that this is an injustice and it should be fixed. But, like so many issues, it takes a lot of work to move people from, “That's wrong,” to actually taking action and getting involved in doing something about it.

So we were just really honored to be invited to participate in this program and contribute our piece to developing awareness, because certainly people came who were connected to adoption, but part of why we love to do programs in other venues, and museum spaces, and other cultural spaces that are open to the public. Because that's what happens: people walk by, they step in. And they would have never otherwise thought about adoption, but now they're learning about it.

I would just really encourage all of your listeners to learn a little bit about this issue and do what they can to support changing the law. You can go to adopteerightscampaign.org and find everything there that you need.

But, and this is just one of many, many, many issues that needs to be looked at, thought about, and figured out. I’m not suggesting that adoptee citizenship is the most important issue over others in adoption. This is not a competition.

I think we need to, again, begin by understanding the whole story. And then, I think, what calls you, what draws you, what are you most interested and passionate about working on, go do that. Because there is no lack of need and there's a lot of need and support that's required.

Haley Radke: What a perfect way to wrap up: a call to action with your own passions in mind. I love that. Thank you so much, Laura. What a great conversation.

Can you let us know how we can connect with you online?

Laura Callen: Absolutely. So you can go to adoptionmuseumproject.org, that's our website, learn about the work that we're doing, contribute to our campaign.

You could email me directly, I would love to hear from anyone, laura@adoptionmuseumproject.org. And we do have a Facebook page, so I invite you to go there and follow us.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for your time. I've so appreciated talking with you today, and hearing a part of your story, and a part of your healing as well.

And thank you for the good work that you're doing with the Adoption Museum Project.

Laura Callen: Thank you so much, Haley. This has been an honor. And for the part that you're doing, right? We're all gonna make this happen together.

Haley Radke: Yes, amen to that. I don't know about you, but my to-be-read pile is getting taller and I'm having a hard time keeping up with all of these amazing recommendations that my guests have been sharing lately.

I know some of you have been feeling brave and feisty during the month of November, which is National Adoption Awareness Month. And I know this because my Twitter feed is full of incredible tweets from adoptees. Last week, I told you to check out the #FlipTheScript, but this week, make sure you're following the #WeDie.

Yes, We Die, as in death. There's a Lost Daughters article up with an explanation behind these chosen words. And I'm sure this won't come as a surprise. It's about adoptee suicide rates and also the ways our identities figuratively die. I'll put a link to that article in the show notes. And if you search the hashtag on Twitter, you'll see some really incredible advocacy work being done there. So that's #WeDie.

This episode is brought to you by my incredibly generous Patreon supporters. If you feel that the work I'm doing with this podcast is valuable, I would be so honored to have you as a partner with me. I'm a mere 11 supporters away from being able to hire an editor. And Patreon is a crowdfunding website that takes monthly pledges to help me sustain this podcast and all the details are on adopteeson.com/partner. There's some rewards for becoming a patron, including a secret adoptees-only Facebook group.

I have had a ridiculously painful week and I don't want to commemorate all the reasons for that here in the show. But I shared in the secret Facebook group some of what was happening and the love and support from you, my amazing friends, it's rendered me speechless. I'm in your debt. Thank you so much. Your support means so much to me. I mean, truly.

Okay, last thing. Today, would you share the show with just one friend? Maybe it's a fellow adoptee who's been struggling with being triggered lately. When you meet them next for coffee, share Laura's and my story with them. And ask for their phone and you can show them how to download the show.

Thank you for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

49 [Healing Series] Coming out of the Fog

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/49

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we tackle coming out of the fog. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to adoptees on Lesli Johnson. Lesli is a fellow adoptee and licensed therapist who works to help other adoptees connect the dots of their story and live authentically. Welcome, Lesli.

Lesli Johnson: Thanks Haley. How are you?

Haley Radke: I'm doing well. Thank you so much for coming back on and now we have met in real life.

Lesli Johnson: I know. So that was fun.

Haley Radke: That was a lot of fun. That was, it was so fun to give you a hug and see your face in person.

Lesli Johnson: Yep. At the CUB Conference, Concerned United Birth Parents, it was nice to see some people that I had only known, up until then, online.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So many connections with online friends in real life is so fun.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Well, I asked you back to talk about something I probably say every episode and sometimes people are like, I don't even know what you're talking about. That terminology is unfamiliar. And it is "coming out of the fog".

And I was wondering, can you help define that for us and just talk a little bit about what that means to you?

Lesli Johnson: Sure. I'd be happy to. So the term coming out of the fog has become really popular in the adoption community. And I guess my definition, I think it's that acknowledgement and you know, for the first time really acknowledging and facing the reality of what happened.

So for the adoptee and the first parent, birth parent, really facing the grief and loss of the separation. Again, there's no linear timeframe when it happens. Maybe for some people it never happens, but it's been my experience both personally and professionally that when it happens, things really start to shift.

And again, if we're thinking about facing that and trying to integrate the grief and the loss, we're kind of looking at even the stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Again, no linear way of processing, but that the adoptee is admitting, wow, adoption really does have an impact on my life.

First Parent has this acknowledgement of, wow, placing a child really did have, does have an impact on my life.

Adoptees, I think we see this on some of the forums and on some of the social media groups, adoptees and adoptive parents too who get really angry at some of the adoptees who are expressing grief and loss. And you know, the like adoptees and adoptive parents that are angry at adoptees who are coming out of the fog. And you get that pushback of, oh, you know, but I had great parents and, you know.

It's not, I was adopted and I had great parents. It's. It's not an either or, it's a both/ and. There's still the grief and loss.

Haley Radke: So what are some of the ways you have seen people experience this and you said, you know, there's stages of grief and you know, there's all these different things. It's not linear. Can you explain maybe what that could feel like for someone to go through that process and maybe what would start them even thinking about it?

Lesli Johnson: An adoptee, an adult adoptee going to search, you know, beginning their search and recognizing and realizing that their birth certificate is a fake. You know, it's the second birth certificate that was given to them that has their adoptive parents' names on it. And coming out of the fog a little bit further, they aren't allowed to access their original birth document. That can be a moment where an adoptee realizes wow. You know, this might be, this is gonna be difficult or, I have a lot of anger about this.

For first parents, I've heard from people in my practice that I've worked with that when they, when their child is about, you know, 12 or 13 or 14 in their teen years that they're coming out of the fog, looks like grief their child isn't a baby anymore. And that solidifies they're not going to parent that child.

I think another example related to feelings that an adoptee might have who's coming out of the fog is maybe when they actually meet their biological parents. They meet their first mother and realize she wasn't the poor girl with tattered clothes, that perhaps was the narrative shared by the adoptive parents. Or she wasn't X, Y or Z, the narrative shared by the adoptive parents.

I think part of when I came out of the fog personally was when I realized I have, I had, and I have no idea where I was for the first three and a half months of my life. Because the story that I was told was that I, my mother thought my adoptive parents thought that I was with my biological mother. And then when I met my biological mother, she let me know that she had relinquished me at birth.

So that was kind of startling to me because it was also around the time when some really close friends of mine had a little baby, and I was like, oh my gosh. Watching, so watching her from birth to three and a half months and kind of, was just very kind of jarring for me.

Haley Radke: And I think for me it was a longer process. Some of it was after my birth mother rejected me a little bit, and then when I first met my biological dad and his wife and my siblings, and seeing the losses there. Connections with them.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And then really when I got pregnant, my first son, like that was like, that's it. Now I really know.

Lesli Johnson: Right. And I think so many people, so many adoptees share that when they have children of their own, when they have biological children of their own, that reality of, whoa. You know, just, whoa. Not only seeing someone that maybe looks like them, but just the experience of I was this infant once and how did this happen?

Haley Radke: Exactly. I remember having that thought, you know? Yeah. When he was first born, like, how could anyone give away a baby? And that was the thought I had in my head, but, I mean, I understand all the circumstances and all of those things. It's just one of those triggers right now.

So we've talked a little bit about the adoptees and first parents. Now, what about adoptive parents? Would they experience ever being out of the fog?

Lesli Johnson: I haven't read a lot of this particular part, piece of the community, you know, adoptive parents coming outta the fog. But I would say absolutely. So I think that would look like when adoptive parents realize that adopting a child isn't the same as having a biological child. It's a way to, one way to form a family, but it's not the same. Or when their beliefs shift to recognizing that adopting a child from another country is not saving that child. Or that adopting a transracial child, you hear sometimes parents say, our family's colorblind. Or I think coming outta the fog is acknowledging the responsibility of parenting a child, you know, from another country or another ethnicity. So I think it does apply to adoptive parents too.

Haley Radke: Are there any things that we can do when we're going through this experience? Now I guess what I'm wondering about is I've heard from several people that this coming outta the fog has been excruciatingly painful. It's like a midlife crisis for them, and they feel like their world is upside down. You know, many of the things you were describing with grief. Right? Or experience of deep grief. What are some things that we can do to move through this process so we don't feel like that? Like completely confused.

Lesli Johnson: I mean, I think you hit kind of the nail on the head too is that it is a process. So I think the maybe initial coming outta the fog is, you know, maybe it's an event and then is the person completely out of the fog? I mean, I know you and I have talked and it's like, can we go back in the fog?

Can we know, spend a little more time there because this isn't really fun. But I think it's the same. I think healing and integrating the parts of one story, especially when it's hard and painful requires, you know, a lot of self-compassion, therapy, community. I guess what I've seen on, you know, with your podcast and some of the other online groups that I follow, you know, the sense of community and support. You're not alone.

Oh wow. This happened to me and when I came out of the fog, this happened. This shared collective experience sometimes is really healing and validating. But I think it's also just it's a lot of self-compassion in recognizing this is a process and allowing, yourself to kind of go through the different stages. And I do really think that I liken it to the stages of grief.

Haley Radke: I was wondering about... you, we were joking that sometimes we talk about going back in the fog. I mean, I think just a couple days ago in the Facebook group, we were joking about that again. You and I have talked about this before, like why do some adoptees just never come out of the fog?

Like, why are they, why are there so many happy adoptees that don't even acknowledge a loss. And I remember you saying there's some things like denial and those types of defense mechanisms.

Lesli Johnson: Coping mechanisms, yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. That can be really, you know, healthy and helpful. Sure. So I don't wanna drag anyone out of the fog, but can you comment on that a little bit about just living in the fog? Like I, I don't want it to be this...

Lesli Johnson: Club that everyone has to join?

Haley Radke: Yes. And, you know, we talk about the online groups and sometimes there's like an us in them and it's like you're an angry adoptee and you're a happy adoptee. And anyway, can you just comment on that a little bit?

Lesli Johnson: And I know what you're referring to too, is that, that, you know, like all I think social media groups let's you know someone feeling like they have to defend their position.

And so if an adopted person was raised in a family where it wasn't okay to talk a about a adoption and it wasn't talked about, they become conditioned to think it's not significant. And if there's nothing that challenges that significance or challenges that belief that this isn't who I am. You know, sometimes you'll hear say, well, adoption doesn't define me. I mean, I used to say that and it, but it does. I mean, it can't really take the adoption out of me.

But I think sometimes if adoptees are raised in environment or just it absolutely is not talked about or even worse, that there's almost a spoken or unspoken threat that, that you know that you're gonna harm your adoptive parents if you talk about it, that it just becomes easier to just to stay kind of in the fog.

And nobody's really saying that the fog is a bad place to be, but I guess I don't, you know, this is my profession and I think the truth is your friend, whatever the truth is, and that's gonna really set you free. So the fog wasn't a great place for me to be in, but I know for my brother, I think he likes the fog.

You know, my adoptive mom loved the fog. She, I think I've joked with you, is that she's the only person who didn't know I was adopted. So her fog was thick.

Haley Radke: When you're, you know, you're describing your brother and your mother like that, and there's just somehow there is this negative connotation to this terminology and I don't know, I wish it didn't have that, because it's such a nice place to be in, but yes I do want to live in the truth and see things clearly for exactly what they are.

Lesli Johnson: Right, right.

Haley Radke: I don't know, do you, I don't know what I'm trying to get at Leslie, but.

Lesli Johnson: Well, and I think some people do want to be the truth and some people don't or choose not to or don't think they can handle it. Don't think that they have the resources or the strength or the fortitude to go there. So that may also keep people from the, kind of exploration of themselves really. That's really what coming out of the fog is. It's not really about, I mean, it is and it isn't, but it's really about exploration of self.

You know, how did this impact me? How does it impact the people around me? But from, you know, it is really, I think it's connecting the dots of our stories.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. And I think maybe this is where this negative connotation comes in. Because for some of us, we say outta the fog means waking up to 'adoption is the worst;, but that's not the case. It's waking up to the whole reality of adoption and that...

Lesli Johnson: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: I had a loss and also I had a good or bad experience with my adoptive parents and my loss doesn't take away, or, you know, from my relationship with them so having the whole picture.

Lesli Johnson: I mean, I think that's absolutely spot on, correct. And you know, what if this, the term was more, you know, not coming out of the fog but coming into the truth, you know? Cause that's kind of what it is, right?

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Lesli Johnson: Taking away the veils and seeing the truth.

Haley Radke: Well, that's pretty good. That's maybe, that's like your book title.

Lesli Johnson: All right I'll, I don't know. I just thought, I guess I just thought of that as I was, I'm just kind of looking at some notes on my desk and there is a, I think that there is kind of a negative kind of connotation of coming out of the fog. Maybe just speaking about the truth and entering the truth could be a different way of looking at it.

And that's really what we're talking about, you know.

Haley Radke: If I am outta the fog and I'm seeing these true things, I'm seeing the full picture for myself and I'm starting to express some of these feelings and thoughts to my loved ones and they're not really understanding it. Are there ways in which I could discuss these things?

For example with my adoptive parents who I would say are probably mostly in the fog. Are there ways I can engage with them and talk to them about this in a really gentle manner? Again, I don't wanna be the one that drags someone outta the fog.

Lesli Johnson: Right. Well, I think that we, I think we've even talked about this in a previous episode is like, how do we talk about this adoption, and especially adoption trauma and separation trauma? How do we talk about our experience integrating that with the people that we love and care about? And often that just feels arduous. Like, ugh, I have to, do I have to do this? Like, but I think there are ways, I mean, and I always reference back to this podcast, I think this podcast is opening so many people's eyes to the experience of adoption. And I don't just mean for the adoptee, I mean for first parents, I mean for adoptive parents, prospective adoptive parents.

So referencing legitimate sources of education and I definitely think this Adoptees On podcast is, and I think some of the social media groups you know, I love to recommend Anne Heffron's book because I just think it it speaks to our experience. And it seems like there has been a shift where people are wanting to hear from the adoptee.

Haley Radke: I guess there comes a point where this becomes so much of my story that it just leaks into every aspect of my life and other relationships.

Lesli Johnson: Right.

Haley Radke: Because adoption comes up all the time.

Lesli Johnson: Yes.

Haley Radke: It just does. I just finished another book. Right at the end, there was this whole thing with adoption. I'm like, are you kidding me?

Lesli Johnson: No, I totally agree. I, so I think also doing our work, doing our own work is an ongoing process. I think it's a lifelong process. So we're out of the fog. We're doing our own work, and it's kind of like when you get a new car and then you see that car everywhere. You know, like you're driving and you see that same car every, everywhere. Are you really seeing that car more or is it just because you're, you just got that car? Do you know what I mean? That's, it might be a really terrible metaphor.

Haley Radke: No you're primed too. Yeah.

Lesli Johnson: Right. What you're saying about the book that you just read, I mean, I just read. I love reading. I mean, I love reading a whole bunch of books, but I, especially like when I'm not reading books for work or books about adoption, I like reading memoirs that chefs have written or cooks like Julia Child or Jacques Pépin.

And I just read this memoir I'm not gonna get his last name but the, he was adopted. And a couple nights ago, watching a movie that wasn't about adoption, but at the very end it turned into, it turned into a movie about adoption. So I get what you're saying and it's like, oh my gosh, it's everywhere.

Haley Radke: Those conversation starters are also everywhere.

Lesli Johnson: Right.

Haley Radke: And of course for me, this podcast and is kind of. Everywhere in my life.

Lesli Johnson: Yes. Course.

Haley Radke: So talking about that, but for my listeners, when you're just having conversations with your friends and family and somebody says something positive about adoption or someone else's adoption experience, do they have an opportunity to bring something up and start a dialogue? Or is it just one more thing that you're like, Ugh, that kind of triggered me. I don't wanna say anything and there's just one more positive thing about adoption I don't wanna hear right now.

Lesli Johnson: Right. I would say it's a case by case, instance by instance, dinner party by dinner party, holiday by holiday scenario. So it that there isn't just a one, one-off answer, but in each instance, is there an opportunity? Do you feel like educating someone ? Or do you intentionally decide you're just not up for it? Sitting at the dinner table and something about adoption comes up.

Maybe you're just, maybe you make that intentional decision, like I'm, I just don't. I'm not engaging in, I don't wanna engage in this right now.

Haley Radke: Or if you're feeling feisty.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Maybe you too.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah. An opportunity to educate. You know?

Haley Radke: So good. So if you could, would you really, Leslie, would you really go back in the fog?

Lesli Johnson: Absolutely not. I really wouldn't. No. No.

Haley Radke: Sometimes I think I would like it for a day, but living in. Really seeing all of the different aspects of what I've experienced and what my birth mother and my dad, and like my adoptive parents have experienced, and generationally what my kids are now going to experience.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And what my biological grandparents have experienced. I couldn't put that away. I wouldn't wanna lose that, and I wanna live in the truth and the light.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah. I agree. I wouldn't, in part, I wouldn't even be, I wouldn't have the privilege of doing the work that I do if I went back into the fog and I just don't think my life experience would feel as kind of rich. So yeah. I'll stay outta the fog.

Haley Radke: Okay. We can be in the Sunshine Buddies.

Lesli Johnson: Right. It's a deal. It's a deal.

Haley Radke: Even though as we're recording this, you are living in sunshine and I am living in the snow, so.

Lesli Johnson: I know. I'm sorry, I wish I could send a little your way. It is pretty sunny here.

Haley Radke: I would take it. Well, thank you so much for this great conversation and .

Lesli Johnson: Thank you for the work that you're doing and I mean, I speak for myself, but I also speak for our community.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I appreciate that. Where can we connect with you online?

Lesli Johnson: You can connect with me. My website is www.yourmindfulbrain.com. Twitter at Leslie a Johnson, l e a s l i a Johnson and Instagram, your mindful brain.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you, Leslie. Thank you.

This show is brought to you by my Patreon partners. Patreon is a site that allows creators like me to raise monthly support to help me keep producing this podcast for you. As a special thank you for a monthly pledge, I have a secret Facebook group that is for adoptees only, where we support each other through search and reunion issues, and we get really real about things we are struggling with, like coming under the fog.

Come and join us. Adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. I have a special message from a fellow adoptee to share with you.

(Recorded voice of Mary Jane Huang) Hi haley. My name is Mary Jane Huang and I am a Taiwanese adoptee from Taipei Taiwan. I'm also a social worker and a board certified music therapist. I love your podcast. So many of the stories your guests share and their experiences deeply resonate with me, and I especially love your healing through the Expressive Art series.

I find healing through music and writing, and I recently had my first book published a memoir called Beyond Two Worlds, a Taiwanese American Adoptee's memoir and Search for Identity. So I was raised to believe I was one race, but after finding my adoption papers, which my adoptive parents hid, I learned that the story my parents told me was not true, and I had a completely different heritage.

So this of course set me off on a journey to find answers, and I eventually reunited with my birth family in taipei in 2012. I also think that underlying this story is a common theme that many adoptees share, and that is of loss. You can purchase the book amazon.com, Barnes and Noble online, as well as indiebound.org, and at my website Beyond Two Worlds. That's T w o worlds.com. Thank you so much for letting me share this with your listeners. I look forward to listening to more of your wonderful podcasts.

(Haley Radke Speaking) Thanks, Mary Jane. If you are an adoptee and would like to tell us about your book or blog or whatever you're working on, head over to adopteeson.com/connect and click on the microphone. I love to hear your voices.

Today would you tell one person about the show? It's literally by word of mouth that podcasts are able to grow their audience if you are able to do that for me, it's just such a huge help to raise up adoptee voices worldwide. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you for listening.

Let's talk again next Friday.

46 Kristen - Acting Adopted

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/46

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 7, Kristen. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I welcome Kristen Garaffo to share her story. Kristen discovered adoption had a deeper impact on her life than she originally realized.

She shares some incredible moments of clarity she's had along the way, and about the impact acting, singing and yoga have had on her healing journey. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and, as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.com Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Kristen Garaffo. Welcome!

Kristen Garaffo: Hey. I'm so excited.

Haley Radke: Did I get [00:01:00] it? Did I get it right?

Kristen Garaffo: You did. You totally got it right.

Haley Radke: Oh, Kristen, I'm so happy to have you here. We actually met at the Indiana Adoptee Network conference in person. And we were in a little support group together where I said some very inappropriate things to an adoptive parent. I'll never forget that. I'm not going to share that here, but that is my shame I have carried for a while.

Anyway, that's an aside, but I am glad I got to meet you in person. So that was really fun. And I'd love it if you would just start off by sharing your story with us.

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. So I am an international adoptee. I was born in Asunción, Paraguay. I was adopted when I was six months old. Growing up, I never really thought [00:02:00] a ton about my adoption.

It's something that I've always known. There was never a time I didn't know. And I was busy as a kid. I did theater. I sang in choir and I was really into it. Really into it. I went to college, I have a musical theater degree. And that had been my focus. That has been my focus, I would say for a majority of my life. Honestly, like I had blinders on, I wanted to be on Broadway.

And I had a ton of support doing all of those things. And it wasn't until I was in college I was not getting cast in the shows at school. And I had a professor who told me that I could write my own stuff. If I was unhappy not performing, I should just create my own performance [00:03:00] opportunities.

And she said, It needs to be something that is uniquely you, like what makes you uniquely you? And at the time I was like, Well, I'm adopted. I guess I could write about that. And that opened a whole world of stuff, a world of things. And I was really into writing a piece that I didn't even really know what it was at the time.

And I ended up getting busy with school so it fell to the back burner. And this piece has continued to flow in and out of my life every year since. Since 2008 was when I had this idea and when I really became aware of all of my just adoption stuff. And then here I am.

Haley Radke: What do you mean by all your adoption stuff?

Kristen Garaffo: So growing up not thinking about adoption at all. Not really. It was just something that wasn't on my mind. I would say [00:04:00] that my stuff is just thinking about it and spending time with this part of my life and just like thoughts of my birth mother, thoughts of Paraguay, thoughts of what would life have been like, all of those things.

Yeah, and also just learning in college, learning about different adoption communities and that they were even a thing because I grew up not knowing that there are adoption support groups and communities of people. Yeah, so it was like a whole world opened up to me

Haley Radke: So have you ever gone back to Paraguay?

Kristen Garaffo: I have not. No. I have not.

Haley Radke: And what about the culture and those kind of things? Were you exposed to that by your adoptive parents?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, a little bit. So I remember in my room growing up, I had some art on the wall that was from Paraguay and I had certain, [00:05:00] I don't even know what you call them, like they were all art things.

I think my parents went to a market when they were there and they just bought little souvenir-type things. And that kind of went with what I've always known, there were things on the wall there. I was surrounded by these things. Honestly, I don't really know a ton about the culture and the country.

And that has been sad for me. Paraguay is a pretty small country in the middle of South America. It's landlocked. When I've looked up information about it it's limited. And that is something that I want to learn more about. Definitely, just like the culture in the country, and I do want to go back one day very soon.

Haley Radke: What did realizing there was some “adoption stuff” mean to you for next steps? Like you talked about you wrote this thing, but you put it to the side.

Kristen Garaffo: The play that [00:06:00] I was writing for the first couple of years, really I didn't know what it was, I just knew that there would be little instances that happened every once in a while that would make me feel very specific things like hurt or sadness or just like numb feelings.

And when those experiences would happen, I would write about them and they would happen maybe once or twice a year. And I ended up having a bunch of really random scenes that didn't necessarily go together, but I knew I had something and I really think I came face to face with the hurt and trauma and my shadow in a yoga class.

Actually, I [00:07:00] was in a yoga class, really one of my first ever yoga classes that I ever took. And we went into a pose called half pigeon pose, which is a deep hip opener. And I ended up crying a lot in the middle of this yoga class on my mat.

And at the time I had recently graduated from college. I was so stressed out. I was exhausted. College was really crazy for me. And it was like all of this emotion came out of me and looking back at that moment, I think it went beyond just the exhaustion and the stress of being a college graduate. I really think I tapped into something deeper, which I believe is my primal wound.

Haley Radke: You said the hurt and trauma and shadow. Can you talk about that?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. Shadow. So I'm a yoga teacher and a life [00:08:00] coach, and I think a lot about light and shadow within ourselves. I think that I am a pretty up person, like my essence is joy. And I feel confident saying that. I think maybe at one point I would be not owning that part of myself, but I do think that my natural energy is light and buoyant and joyful.

And at the same time, there is this deep shadow I call a shadow. Which is the hurt and the pain of my adoption. And it is really scary to go to those places. And at the same time, it's a part of who I am, and I think about valuing the light and the dark within myself and within all of us.

Like I value that shadow even though it's hard and scary and I [00:09:00] feel so many complex things about being adopted and what that means to be adopted and I'm still navigating all of my feelings.

Haley Radke: So have you looked into why you were available for adoption?

Kristen Garaffo: The story that I've been told is that my birth mother was 19. She already had a little girl, so I have a birth sister who's three years older than I was. And the story was just that she couldn't take care of me. And that it was, you know, her life. I think she was cleaning houses. Already having a three year old, having another one would just be too much.

Haley Radke: So when you know that, what are you believing about yourself?

Kristen Garaffo: An initial thought is like, Why? And also at the same time, like I get it. I get it, like two kids is [00:10:00] more than one. I don't even really know if I've taken the time to sit with that. What does that actually feel like?

Haley Radke: Feelings are so fun, aren't they? You had this moment on the yoga mat of feelings and we're opened up to thinking about maybe there's more to this adoption thing. You've all these scenes written, but they're disjointed. Let's go back to that.

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. Yeah. And I would love to talk about an experience that I had that made me take my place seriously. I think before it was just a thing that I was doing that was maybe going to be something but I didn't really know. And it wasn't until I took a trip to Costa Rica. I traveled to Costa Rica for a yoga leadership retreat and it was the prerequisite to my life coach [00:11:00] certification and I was going to do yoga and to go.

It wasn't really a retreat 'cause we were doing really deep soul work and we were there for two weeks. And what I was not expecting was be being in Central America, even though it wasn't South America, had a huge impact on me. And my cells. When I try to explain what it was like, I can explain it as feelings in my body from immediately getting off of the plane and feeling the hot air and seeing the palm trees and just being in a place that is closer to the equator.

I started getting teary eyed. My heart started pounding and I felt like I [00:12:00] was vibrating and I was like, What is happening? This is crazy. And not thinking about adoption at all. And I just felt, I felt feelings. I felt feelings and I didn't know where they were coming from.

And I had another moment. I think it was the second day that I was there at the retreat center. So our morning practice was silent. So we had silent breakfast and we could journal, we could meditate, we could do whatever we wanted to do before breakfast and before the first session of the day at this leadership retreat.

And I woke up and went into the kitchen and at this retreat center everything was open so we could see the jungle and there were monkeys and there were lots and lots of sounds even though we were being silent. And there were two women who worked at the retreat center [00:13:00] who were making us breakfast and the silent breakfast didn't apply to them.

So they were speaking Spanish to one another as they were cutting up fruit. They were cutting up fruit. And I remember sitting and looking out into the jungle and hearing all of these monkeys and nature sounds and hearing these two women speaking Spanish to one another chopping fruit and hearing the knife on the table and just kitchen sounds. And I started weeping and it was another moment of sensory overload and, again, I didn't know why I was feeling all of this.

And I was just sitting at this kitchen table crying. And it wasn't until I talked to my teacher and I was [00:14:00] like, I don't know why I'm feeling so emotional for no reason. And she said, Well, you don't know yet. And when I actually figured out why I was feeling all of this stuff is we ended up doing a meditation on being in the womb.

And I had never thought about that. I had never thought about my time in the womb. And I was like, Oh. Oh, okay. It's this. This is it. And coming back to the play, like why, and also just like life, all of it came together and I realized that my story and this part of my life is so important and is part of who I am.

And also, I think of myself as a storyteller and as an actor, that's also a part of who I am. And how I started on my own healing journey with my adoption was, actually, like the end of that retreat. I was like, I am writing this play. I'm writing it. I am getting resources to help me write this play [00:15:00] and I am doing it.

And I did.

Haley Radke: You're telling that story about the women cutting fruit and I have goosebumps. Like something about it was familiar to you.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes, and I know that now. At the time I didn't understand, but now I can look back at it and, yeah, it's like an unconscious memory. It's like a knowing without knowing but knowing. It's so confusing, but I know you know what I mean.

Haley Radke: Preverbal memories.

Kristen Garaffo: Exactly. Yeah, so after my Costa Rica trip, I decided to really buckle down and write this piece. So I ended up falling down a Google rabbit hole, just like googling one-woman shows. And I ended up finding a woman named Tanya Taylor Rubinstein. And Tanya Taylor Rubinstein is in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

And she [00:16:00] is a coach. She's a healer. She helps people write and tell their stories. And she had a solo show bootcamp. And I found this. Again, I didn't know this was a thing, but I was like, Holy moly, I have to hire this woman. So I ended up calling her and I flew to Santa Fe, New Mexico. I spent a couple of days with Tanya and that was the first time where I was able to take all of these scenes that I had written and I actually tossed them out the window, since I had been in Santa Fe and we started over, and it was really amazing because we didn't even write. I don't remember, I think it was four days, it was three or four days that I was there, and I didn't write at all, I was on my feet and storytelling the whole time.

Tanya would ask questions and she would guide me through and [00:17:00] I just started telling stories about my life. And we recorded everything so I ended up going home with hours of content of me just sharing stories. And once I got home, I was able to transcribe some of those stories and put them together with a beginning, a middle and an end. And ultimately what the play has turned into.

It's called Hi, My Name is Kristen. And it is my story from birth to my early twenties, like right after college. And it is my life as a series of auditions. And, yeah, it explores my life as a performer who is also adopted. It explores my feelings with rejection, with acceptance, with my strong desire to [00:18:00] please as a performer. And also as an adoptee, and all of those things are heightened because of my adoption. And that's the piece.

Haley Radke: That's amazing. And I'm just thinking about adoptees as performers, can you talk a little bit more about that?

Kristen Garaffo: I was actually inspired. What brought the play together for me was reading The Primal Wound for the first time.

And honestly, as I was reading it, we all know that's a pretty tough read. It's a pretty tough read. And as I was reading it, I was like, I don't really know if this applies to me. Like I don't know, but I kept reading and until I got to a point and it was a small little paragraph and it said something like, if your child isn't showing, [00:19:00] anger, loneliness, or I'm not sure exactly what it said, but it's the opposite, like if your kid is perfect and follows the rules and in general seems very happy and eager to please, the wound is still there. It's just showing up in a different way. And it's an unconscious fear of being rejected.

And I read that and my heart stopped and I was like, I get it. I was like, that's me. That's me. And just thinking about adoptees as performers, it's wanting to please, it's wanting to be perfect. It's wanting to not upset. It's wanting to not offend because we don't want to be rejected again.

Haley Radke: It was an interesting career path that you chose. Always having to audition. I know you've shifted [00:20:00]

Kristen Garaffo: I didn't pick it. I remember, especially growing up, I love to sing. I love to sing and the first musical that I was ever in was Snow White and the Seven Dwarves in fourth grade. And that was it. I did it and I was like, Done, I'm doing this forever. I loved it so much.

And as I got older, and this is what happens in the play, it gets more serious and I put so much pressure on myself to do well and to succeed. And I think it was not only me but hearing adults say, You're so talented. You're so great. We love you and all of that, and hearing that and being like, Yes, I need that. I need that to be worthy.

This is totally random, but I played Annie [00:21:00] in eighth grade. I totally didn't put the two and two together until I was writing my piece, until I was writing Hi, My Name is Kristen. I played Annie in eighth grade, and I don't know, it's so silly.

Haley Radke: I don't know. I said what a career you chose, or whatever, you just loved it. That's who you are and you want to sing and perform. And so what has that led you to? Tell me more about that.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes. I live outside of Washington D.C. And I've been a professional actor here in D.C. since 2010-ish. And it's interesting because living the actor lifestyle is hard. It's hard because you have to audition all of the time. There is no real job security. It's going from show to show. And honestly as I have lived that life, but also at the same time I was teaching yoga, I got my life coach certification and the [00:22:00] more that I leaned into that world and taking care of my body, taking care of my heart, I realized that the actor lifestyle is hard and maybe not for me, at least at this point in my life.

And at the same time, that doesn't take away my love of performing, my love of storytelling, my love of singing and music. And what it means to me now is I am still performing, I'm still creating music, just on my own terms. I don't think I ever want to audition again. I just want to be empowered to create my own stuff.

Haley Radke: Yes. I had written down when you very first said that one of your teachers said, Create your own opportunities. And so you've written your one-woman show for you. For you to [00:23:00] perform. Can we talk a little bit about plays, theater and what it's like for an audience member to experience these things?

So when I was in Indiana with you, Brian Stanton performed Blank and I basically was dead because it was so amazing. I went to the C.U.B. retreat, the Concerned United Birthparents Retreat. And they had a performance, it was a reading of Lord of the Underworld's Home for Unwed Mothers by Louisa Hill.

I sat through both of those performances and I was riveted and I cried and I felt all of the empathy for the characters and experienced this crazy ride of emotions, the sadness and anger, and I [00:24:00] shared with a couple of my friends who missed out. They didn't come to the play.

They were doing something else. And I was like, it was so powerful. I can't believe you missed it. And they didn't get why it was so important, and I don't know how to put that into words. What it's like to experience that with a room full of other audience members who are going on the same ride as you, and do you have words for that?

What does that mean for you?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah and before I jump in, I also want to share with you that I went to the conference in Indiana to see Brian's play. I had just met Ridghaus, who I know you've talked to. Like two weeks before that conference at another conference, he was like, You should come see this show.

Because he knew I had written a play. And I was like, Okay. I booked a ticket and it was so [00:25:00] incredible. It was so huge for me because my play has been just in my brain for a really long time. And to actually see Brian perform his piece was validation for me that it's possible and seeing it was so powerful because his piece was so powerful and it empowered me to keep going with my play.

I think that storytelling is magic. I think stories touch us in a way that is different than hearing a talk. I'm touching my heart right now. I think stories touch us in a way that's different. And I think specifically with theater and being in a room with other people and having other real life human beings in front of you telling a story that [00:26:00] that kind of intimacy is rare.

I think now with technology and with other mediums, like film and TV, and not that there's anything wrong with film or TV, I love film and TV, but I think that theater in particular is its own art form and is beautiful and intimate. And I also know as a performer that, again, it's magic, and I cry.

The last show that I was in was three years ago. And it's a part of me being able to tell my story in my way. My way as an actor, as a musician, as a singer. Saying my own words, telling my own [00:27:00] story in front of a group of people in the present moment is so amazing. It's so amazing. And I'm just so honored and excited to share my piece.

And I believe it's an honor to be in a space with other human beings in real time and hearing a story, and being able to sit and watch. And I also think that because I've been performing for so long, I know what it takes to put on a play or a musical, and it takes a village. It takes a village.

There's a whole team of people who are working to make it happen. And I think that's pretty special.

Haley Radke: Have you seen the one I mentioned? Lord of the Underworld's Home for Unwed Mothers.

Kristen Garaffo: Oh, I've never seen that one.

Haley Radke: Okay, so it's actually not written by an adoptee or a birth mother. It's written by the playwright Louisa Hill. And I actually was messaging with her because I was telling her how incredible I [00:28:00] thought it was. And I was like, Are you an adoptee? And she said, No, but I have a few friends who are adopted and I read the Primal Wound and some other books about adoption. Because she nails it. It's incredible. The first act is all from the birth mother's perspective.

And it's the Baby Scoop Era, where they sent the mothers away to a home and they had no choice. They had to give their babies away and when they hesitate and they want to keep the baby they're like, Okay, here's your bill. So their hands are tied basically. And then the second half is the adoptee perspective.

So during the first act, there were two older ladies sitting next to me and they were birth mothers and the one would nudge the other one: That's what they said to me! And they, when they're experiencing the unwed mother's home, they were just so moved. And I [00:29:00] was too, right?

There is something magic, as you say, about being in person and experiencing it together. What other words can you say about that?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, and you can see and hear your story and someone else's story. And I think that is also magic. Because that means you were not alone. We're not alone. And who doesn't need that reminder?

Haley Radke: Yeah. That's a big part of why I created the podcast, this platform for people to share their stories. Exactly, so that people can listen and think, Oh my goodness, I'm not the only one who has weird and crazy thoughts that I've never said out loud before.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes. Yes. Totally. I think writing my play has been immensely healing. Telling my story has been [00:30:00] really healing, because I think, like what you just said, it's like having these thoughts that we've never really said out loud. I think there is power in owning our stories.

There is power in being able to speak these things out loud. And, my time with Tanya in Santa Fe was hugely healing. And it was the first time. We did some crazy stuff. Talking about the primal wound, I turned the wound into a character. And it was like, what does the wound sound like? What does the wound say? How does the wound move? What does it look like? And being able to embody that was crazy and amazing and scary and all of these things.

Using your body and using your voice and telling your story is healing is super healing. My healing continues as I share this piece with more [00:31:00] and more people, which is happening. And, you know, my piece has taken its time to be birthed out into the world and I think there was a time where I thought that it was happening too slowly, but now I understand why it's taken this long, because I think if I had performed it when I had finished writing it, that I just wouldn't have been ready emotionally to share and to speak my story.

So I've taken my time, and other things that I have done there is an adult adoptee support group that I go to. I should say once a month, I don't go once a month though. But knowing that it's there, and going to support group therapy is good. Also, I have a life coach.

I would consider my yoga practice as part of my healing. I am also a CrossFit athlete. Really moving my body, I think, [00:32:00] is part of it. Because our emotions and our thoughts can get stuck in our bodies, I believe, and I think that our trauma lives in our muscles, it lives in our bones, and we can only talk so much about it and stay in our brains.

Moving and being in our bodies touches on our wounds in a different way than just talking about it. Not to say that talking about it isn't helpful as well because, holy moly, that's super valuable to be able to voice these thoughts that we may be afraid to say out loud, but then adding a movement practice into it, at least in my own experience, it's been huge for me.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. We have been talking about how creativity and different forms in visual arts and music and in all of these different pieces helps us to express the nonverbal, right? And so movement is just another layer of that.

Kristen Garaffo: Totally.

Haley Radke: So well [00:33:00] said. Thank you. Okay. So for recommended resources, as you said, you are a musician as well, so you have a couple of songs up on, I found them on YouTube, on Spotify, and where else can we find them?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, I think they're YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, as well. I have one song out called “I Am” and it was written for meditation and it's positive affirmations and you can stream that on Spotify and iTunes. And then I have a forgiveness meditation called “Ho'oponopono.” It is a Hawaiian forgiveness practice and that is on YouTube.

There's more music to come. So songwriting is new for me and I am excited to just dig more into that. And there's also original music in my play Hi, My Name is Kristen. So I have my [00:34:00] ukulele, the ukulele makes an entrance in the show. Singing is, music is in my heart.

Haley Radke: It's so beautiful and I keep saying this word, but it's so moving as well. And your one-woman show. So tell us, are we able to see this, like what's happening?

Kristen Garaffo: Yes, there's a reading of Hi, My Name is Kristen happening on November 5th at 5:30 at a place called Rhizome DC.

It's a community art space in the Takoma neighborhood of Washington D.C. and tickets are free. So that reading is happening very soon and I want to take this show where it’s needed. I have a goal to perform this piece all over the country, where it's needed. So I'm taking this show on the road. And if you're interested, holler at me.

Haley Radke: It would be a great addition to another Adoptee conference, right? Target market. [00:35:00] So good. Thank you. Okay. And now what did you want to recommend to us?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, Tanya Taylor Rubenstein. If you are interested in telling your story, whether it's a memoir or if you want to create a talk, like a TED Talk, or a one-woman or a one-man show, Tanya will help you out.

She'll help you get your story out into the world. She helped me out and I am so grateful for her. And also, if you have never taken a yoga class or a meditation class, I recommend it. I recommend it. It makes you feel good.

Haley Radke: Wonderful, I will put links to all of those things, to your show and to your recommendation in the show notes so people can find those. And where can we connect with you online, Kristen?

Kristen Garaffo: So I am on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. You can just look up Kristen Garaffo. That's my Instagram handle and on Facebook [00:36:00] as well. And my website, KristenGaraffo.com.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for chatting with me and sharing your story.

Kristen Garaffo: You're so welcome. I'm so happy and grateful to be here. Thank you.

Haley Radke: It's November and that means it's National Adoption Awareness Month. Did you know that this month was supposed to highlight the need for homes for older children in foster care? But instead, in these past few years, it has turned into this heavy month of promoting and celebrating adoption in every form.

So if you're feeling feisty and would like to have some say in the conversation, head over to any social media outlet and share what adoption has meant to you and tell some adoptee truth, because believe me, there is not enough out [00:37:00] there. And there's a ton of hashtags out there. Flip The Script is one great one to follow and join in on.

Alternately, if you are feeling sensitive and like you don't have it in you to read post after post about how amazing adoption is, November is the perfect month for a social media break and some self care, which I am more in that camp for today.

Anyway, this show is brought to you by my incredibly generous Patreon supporters of which there are now, listen to this you guys, 36! Thank you so very much. When I get to 50 supporters, I will be able to hire an editor to help with my workload and my dear husband and my tiny kids will be delighted to have some time back with me again.

So, if you would like to stand with me and these amazing 36 partners that I have, Patreon [00:38:00] is this crowdfunding website that takes monthly pledges and it helps me sustain the podcast. All the details and how to sign up are on adopteeson.com/partner.

Last thing, I always ask you to share the show. My husband just got us a Google home speaker. And did you know, if you say, Google play the podcast Adoptees On, it will. Isn't that cool? Try it out! And if you're at a friend's house and they have a smart speaker, maybe you can show them how it works to play a podcast.

Thanks for listening, friends, and take good care, especially this month. And let me know if you go check out Kristen's one-woman show. I would love to hear how it is. I wish I could go.

Let's talk again next Friday.

45 Gareth - The Magical Realism of Being Adopted

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/45

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 6, Gareth. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today I introduce you to Gareth Price, a magical realism artist from New Zealand. We talk a lot about what being an adoptee feels like and the accompanying anger that Gareth tells me he's dealt with all his life.

Gareth and I chat about his art, his twin sister and his reunion with his birth mother. We wrap up with some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to the podcast, Gareth Price. Welcome Gareth.

Gareth Price: Hello, [00:01:00] Hayley. How's it going?

Haley Radke: It's good. I would love for you to share your story with us.

Gareth Price: I was born in Auckland in December 1971. I'm a twin. I have a twin sister, Glenda. And we were both adopted out immediately after birth.

We were adopted out to my parents, Rose and Craig Price, and we lived in Green Lane which is beside One Tree Hill, which was featured on the Joshua Tree album. There was a song, “One Tree Hill”, that U2 did, and if anybody's familiar with that, that's where I grew up.

I've actually heard this from a few of your podcasters, people don't tend to seem to get that interested in the whole adoption issue until they start approaching maybe 20, maybe? Or maybe early 20s or something? And we were the same. It was actually my sister. Even though we're twins, we're very separate people. I'm quite [00:02:00] a reserved chap, and she was very outward and she left home at 15 and she very much acted out.

She was a very angry person back then. She's quite different now. She's lovely. But, and anyway, she was the one who instigated trying to find our birth mother. And we found her on Anzac Day. Anzac Day is a celebration that we have down here. And I think it was, I can't remember what year, it was when we were about 18 or 19.

And yeah, and so we met her and that was as anybody who's gone through this experience, that was utterly, indescribably wonderful and terrifying. It was just so bizarre. It was the most unbelievable experience. Just her walking up the driveway and you have all these images in your mind of what your birth mother may look like, and then when she comes up, she was a little bit different than I thought and probably a bit shorter maybe and things like that and we [00:03:00] connected very strongly over, it must be said, over alcohol mostly for about the next five or six, seven years, eight years and it was really good and then things started to go another way, shall we say.

And anyway, and about two years after meeting her, she got in contact with our birth father. And we connected with him. And that was really amazing. I'm still in contact with both of them. They don't really contact much with each other.

And our birth mother, she lives just out of central Auckland, just on the waterfront in a suburb called St. Heliers. And the birth father lives just down the country a little bit in a place called Coromandel. And the real kicker for us is the fact that our birth mother is also adopted.

She tried to, I believe, this story is a bit confused for me, I'm not sure, I believe that she tried to find her birth [00:04:00] mother at about 18 as well, but she was unsuccessful because the law was a lot stronger back when she was adopted out with the closed adoptions. She's the end of the line on that side, but on the father's side, we've been extraordinarily lucky. He's got three sisters, so our aunts. It's been a very rich history on that side. Yeah, and all this stuff keeps getting stronger and stronger the older I get. I'm 45 now.

It's unusual because you think that finding your roots fixes everything. And it does change some things, but other things change, but they don't really get fixed as such. Like we've got all these wonderful family connections and things, and that's great, but I still don't go along to family gatherings that much because there's always that intense sadness and anger there and stuff [00:05:00]. Even if it's a really good connection, there's still the feeling that this is what we could have had from day one. And it's tremendously…like the relationship is very good, but it's still very hard, and I don't know if that ever really gets fixed, it just gets, maybe, I don't know, maybe I can just start to think about it differently.

I'm really quite philosophical about all this stuff. My sister is a little bit more forthright about it. And the relationship with the birth mother has been slowly deteriorating for about the last maybe 7 or 8 years to the point where, last year she went to Hawaii during the week of her birthday.

And then this year, I believe tomorrow actually, she's actually off to Hawaii again. And I emailed her just to say bon voyage, and she emailed back saying, Oh yes, I tried to be away for my birthday again this year, but I couldn't quite do it. I know that there's this tradition of adoptees having real trouble with their birthdays. [00:06:00] I'm certainly one of them.

And the trouble that she has is so intensely deep that she, I haven't even talked to her about this. I haven't had any real in-depth conversations with her for quite a long time because it's just too raw. And the fact that I had to stop drinking over a decade ago. Maybe if I took up drinking again, I'd be able to talk to her about it. But it's just it just becomes so intense so quickly. There's massive issues there and so much unsaid stuff with her.

And I've been reading on the amazing private Facebook page that you set up, the other people's similar experiences with mostly their own birth mothers, some birth fathers, but how the relationships deteriorate. And because she's got all the guilt and shame and stuff of giving us up. But she's also got the intense anger that comes from being adopted herself. So she's just a [00:07:00] minefield. And it's really heartbreaking because she's such a beautiful person.

She's really wonderful, but if I didn't text her, I would never hear from her. And that's just heartbreaking, because we had such a good relationship for about the first, sorry, admittedly drunkenly but it was good. They were some of the best times of my life, if I was to be really honest.

It was just going over to her house and sometimes with my twin sister and just getting really wasted and just connecting. But we just don't do that anymore. We haven't done it for a very long time, maybe over a decade. And it's sad, you know.

Haley Radke: Do you think she's coming out of the fog and then realizing it's like a whole other level. Birth mothers already, they have what you said, they have the shame and the regret maybe of relinquishing, but then to realize, Oh, I have all of these other adoptee issues on top of that, and then I gave them to you guys.

Gareth Price: Yeah.

Haley Radke: My gosh. [00:08:00] Oh, I feel so much for her right now.

Gareth Price: Yeah, it is. It is very much like that, and I've been in and out of therapy. And every so often I'll try and contact her and I only ever text her mostly, text and email, and I'll gingerly say maybe we should meet up and stuff and a lot of the time she fobs me off and just says, Oh I can't this weekend, blah, blah, blah.

But I can't help but think if she did start to do any of that sort of therapeutic type work, it would just be so incredibly intense for her. It's a mixture between I really feel for her, but I'm really massively upset at her as well. It's two sides of the same thing, and they're both pretty much as intense as each other. It's really hard.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I'm sure there's this part when you're in reunion, you want to be the [00:09:00] child and they should have the parent role, but if she can't get to that place of the parent role, engaging you in conversation and connecting with you in giving something. Like if you're always the one reaching out and doing the giving. And when i'm saying parent role, I don't mean, Oh they need to step up, that's not what I mean. I don't know how else to say that but

Gareth Price: I know what you mean. And we've never had that kind of relationship. It always had some depth to it earlier on, but then it just became more and more surface, and it feels like it desperately needs to be a surface relationship because if anything else starts to happen, it’s like she starts to pull away and for her to pull away in what's already an incredibly fractured relationship is just, well, I hardly ever see her as it is. But I just know that there is going to come that point, probably quite soon because everybody's getting on, people don't [00:10:00] get any younger, etc. And I hope it doesn't happen. I hope I don't explode or something, but I, it's what I really feel like doing. It's horrible. It's nuts.

Haley Radke: What's your sister's relationship like with her? Are they still in touch?

Gareth Price: I think she sees her probably less than I do.

When my sister got married, it might have been about maybe five or so years after we found our birth mother, she didn't even come to the wedding because, I'm assuming, I never talked to her about it, but I'm assuming because she didn't want to see all the the birth father's side that was going to be there and she couldn't face them.

She's just a survivor, she just does what she can to survive. And I certainly relate to that. I'm very much like that myself. I feel like I'm not living a lot of the time as much as I'm surviving, which I think that's the [00:11:00] mentality that I've always had.

And I think from judging by the books that I've read, like the Nancy Verrier books, The Primal Wound and the Coming Home to Self books and various other books, that is the sense that I get that for a lot of adoptees life does tend to be just below the surface. It's all about survival, and swallowing a lot of things.

And putting up with a lot of things that a lot of other people wouldn't put up with just because it's what you know and because you're desperate not to be rejected again and all this kind of stuff, and it's so true. Every day is like that for me. And that's why the art, I'm getting onto the art now, but that's why the art that I do and the music that I've done, not so much these days, but the art is so very important.

Even though it's not directly about adoption, everything is influenced by it and it's [00:12:00] an expressive outlet and it's pretty much the one thing that I feel in my life that's exclusively me and that I can really say, put out how I feel or how I think about whatever. It’s how I make sense of things.

And if anybody goes to the website, the art on it is reasonably surreal and things, but it's mostly symbolism. And if I was to explain the work to you, it's actually a lot of it's quite straightforward.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so why don't you talk a little bit about that? So you are an artist.

Gareth Price: Yes. Yeah. I'm self-taught. I had a great art teacher at my high school. That was really great. He was wonderful. And then I half-heartedly applied to art school after high school, but I didn't get in. I didn't even get an interview.

And then for most of my twenties, I did music. I played some pop music and rock music and things. And I didn't really come back to the visual arts until my early thirties. Primarily because the woman that I was [00:13:00] seeing at the time, she was just finishing up, she was a bit younger than me and she was finishing up at art school.

And so just by being around her doing art all the time, I just felt drawn back into it. And so after work and weekends and whatever, I just got obsessed with painting. And I painted for about three years. And I painted for about three years and then I got up enough work that I thought I could show a gallery and I got into a gallery and the work started selling and I couldn't believe it.

It was just amazing. And that continued for a few years up until about 2012. And that was the highlight of my achievement. There's a work on the website. It's like a big red volcano. It was actually based on the Chilean volcano that erupted in 2011. And I did the painting in 2012. And it was all about those prophecies that came around in 2012 being the end of the world and the Mayan calendar and all that sort of thing. But that was the highlight of my painting career. It won [00:14:00] awards and stuff down here and it sold for a really good price.

But then after that I got more confidence. And I tried a few different things, and sometimes those things worked, and sometimes they didn't. And yeah, people would say I still really like your work, but I don't really want that in my house. Because it was, I'm paraphrasing, they didn't actually say, the work was darker. And it was a bit more experimental. And so the stage I'm at now is doing stuff that's maybe slightly more straightforward. But if that makes any sense.

Haley Radke: You said it's surreal and it has a lot of symbolism. Can you describe some, because you do a lot of really interesting work. Can you describe a little bit more about that?

Gareth Price: I still love Salvador Dali. He's the greatest for me. I think the reason he resonates so much with me is because my adoptive mum used to bring home prints from the library and just hang them up in [00:15:00] our house. You could just rent them like books. And she brought home lots of Dali ones. And I think because all his paintings are about this inner world, like this kind of surreal inner world. And it's full of symbolism and things as well. And that's where I live as a person.

That's where I escaped to and in terms of the whole adoptive mindset, I suppose. And we had a very dictatorial, quite abusive father growing up as well. And so my sister acted out and, like I was saying, she left home at 15 and all that sort of stuff.

She was a real tearaway and I was the opposite. I was very much, I still am, the people-pleasing introvert. I live in my own world. That's what's kept me sane, and that's what Salvador Dali does so well, his landscapes and his figures in the landscapes, they feel very still and they're very calm, a lot of them in terms of the atmosphere.

But there's also [00:16:00] an amazing amount of emotion. There's just so much in them and they just really feel like a kind of strangely safe internal world. And that's what I'm trying to recreate. I spend months doing my paintings and I imagine living inside them a little bit, so it's kind of escapism, but I try and make it relatable for other people as well. It's sort of symbolism. Things symbolize different kinds of emotions and experiences and things like that, you know?

Haley Radke: There's this one painting that I couldn't stop looking at on your website.

There is a house on this beautiful street, and there's a tree in front, and then it looks like the lights, there's a whale in the sky, and there's a woman that looks like she's just suspended, in the air or falling.

Gareth Price: The Resurrection of Ophelia. That's right, yeah [00:17:00]. That one is one of, I think, maybe two or three works that have been commissions. That was one of them.

A guy came into the gallery to see his friend's work and he saw a painting of mine. He asked the gallery owner if I did commissions and the gallery owner contacted me and I said, Yep, sure, absolutely, show me the money. And all he wanted was his house in the painting and I pushed him and pushed him, what else do you want in it? And he would never say. He just said, just do whatever you want.

And I had this idea about doing a large whale just floating around through the sky. And so that's how that came about. But it's symbolism again. It's about the sort of immutable forces of nature and just how unstoppable and incredible they are. Some things that you look around at in the natural world, if they [00:18:00] weren't there, they would be hard to imagine, like Aurora Borealis, all that sort of thing.

Haley Radke: We call that the Northern lights. What do you call it?

Gareth Price: We have Aurora Australis down here, but we hardly ever get it. And it's very faint. I've never seen it. I think you can see it. I think you can see it from the bottom of New Zealand at particular times of the year, but quite faintly.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Where I grew up, which is 10 hours north of where I am right now, northern Canada, you could see it all the time, especially in the winter like that. Like that bright. And so I was like, whoa, that's so beautiful. What about this one where there's a woman talking on the phone and there's all of these

Gareth Price: Insects.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Gareth Price: Oh, that one is the only collaborative work that I've ever done. The wife of a friend of mine went through art school and she did a lot of canvases with all [00:19:00] these, she invented her own 60s, 70s inspired wallpaper patterns. And she just did a whole bit, there's a whole bunch of canvases in the back room of their house just sitting there unused and they're really quite beautiful. And a few of them are not finished. And so I just said, can I paint on one? Because I normally do exteriors but I did this one as an interior and the idea is it's very much reflecting me. The woman in the painting is actually the lady who painted the canvas that I painted on top of. And the whole idea is about people getting obsessed with their own work.

In this case she is an entomologist, I don't know where that idea came from, but she's an entomologist and she's just become quite paranoid. And she's trapped in her house and just imagining seeing things outside the window. And she's basically swamped in her work and it's taken over her life in a kind of [00:20:00] what I hope is a beautiful way. And yeah, it's about how people get obsessive about things in their life. Whether it's your work or whether it's one of your hobbies or whatever it is and how it can quite easily take you over sometimes. Which happens with me routinely with painting. That's what painting does to me it quite a lot

Haley Radke: I love hearing more about this and how things just have such depth of meaning to you. Amazing. So interesting. Tell me a little bit more about how you process some of your adoption feelings through your artwork. What comes out in your painting that maybe surprises you or that you're like literally just trying to expel from yourself?

Gareth Price: Even if it's quite a sort of moody painting, I try to keep the stuff [00:21:00] reasonably bright. Like I really like bright colors, but virtually all of them are to do with just how people deal with trauma or how people deal with obstacles in their life, whether it's addictions or whether it's the adoption thing and family issues.

And it's all about directly or indirectly how people deal with that. A lot of my work is about that. And there's a tremendous amount of anger in them. I've always had a real huge problem expressing anger in a healthy way. I just find it really difficult. And so I find doing painting is quite helpful.

So that's why some of them are a bit darker. The overall emotion that I have that comes through in all of them, some of them are about specific things that aren't related to adoption, but because it's the driving [00:22:00] emotion in my life, it's always there. It's this terror that's not too far below the surface. It's just horrible. It's tremendously alienating and really, it can just be so hard to just get through day to day sometimes, just dragging this weight around. But that's why the podcasts that you do and things are very helpful because the connection there is tremendous.

Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit more about what you said was alienating? Is it because people think adoption is like the best thing ever?

Gareth Price: I guess so. Yeah. There's a strange dichotomy, isn't there? Like if you tell people you're adopted these days, they tend to be a little bit more reserved with their judgment about it. Whereas when I was a bit younger, it was nothing. It was not really an issue. But the reality of it is it's so massive. And even these days, like I'm a huge fan of Reddit. I love Reddit, the [00:23:00] website. But I saw this cartoon the other day, and I've seen this in a few things.

It's just where some kid and his father and they were doing something or other. And then the punchline was he told his son, “you're adopted.” Right? And the whole meaning of it was you thought your life was great, but it was a damning thing for the father to say, if you understand.

And I've seen that in quite a few works, sorry, in quite a few cartoons and things of that nature. Where somebody tells somebody else, “You're adopted.” “Oh, I've got some bad news for you.” “What is it? Am I adopted?” “No, you just have cancer” or something, and it's basically portrayed as this really terrible thing.

And yet when you ask people about it, they don't really have the perception. It's quite hard to get across to people. Even other adoptees, too. Even my own twin sister views it [00:24:00] quite differently to me. And that's been probably the hardest of all because her experience is identical, virtually should be identical to mine, but it's not.

And I guess some people don't really have too much of an issue with it, full stop. They, for whatever reason, have managed to live quite okay. And it hasn't seemingly affected them too much or, I don't know, but what do you think?

Haley Radke: I have lots of feelings.

I've asked some of the therapists before that I speak with regularly, why do some adoptees not seem to mind being adopted? I call them happy adoptees, which is great. That's great. I'm so glad that you can have a great life and not be bothered. I'd happily go back in the fog if I could.

And I remember, I think Leslie Johnson was the one that said, some people are just a little more resilient or they have denial as a defense mechanism. And she was very clear, not saying denial in [00:25:00] any negative connotation, just that, these are not her words, I'm going to mine, but if you're blocking out your losses it's easier to just go on and move forward with life.

But if you really pay attention to them, just like you were saying, you don't want to even go to a family reunion because even if you could be happy there, there's still the other half of you who is just, oh my gosh, I missed out on so much. And you feel angry and you feel sad, and I genuinely understand that because that's exactly how I feel every time I'm with my biological family.

Gareth Price: Is that right?

Haley Radke: Oh yeah, I can't get out of it. I'm literally having the best time and it's so great and I feel like included and I feel like this is where I fit and this is my family, and right in the same moment I'm just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I missed out on this for however many years and what would my life look [00:26:00] like if I was with them?

And I wouldn't have been with them. Maybe if I was with my mother…it's just, you can't turn it off.

Gareth Price: Oh God. Ain't that the truth. Yeah. And the other thing that I keep saying to people whenever I talk about this at length, which isn't that much, is the fact that I don't think any of the problems that we have are necessarily unique to us. But I really do strongly believe that certain issues are incredibly heightened because of the experience.

Like I've seen and heard things through Adoptees On that are very relatable to me. And in You Don't Look Adopted, Anne Heffron's book, about how she would say that she really blows things out of proportion massively in her head, if somebody's late, or just all these things. It's just this [00:27:00] hyper-paranoia that it must be me. I must have done something wrong.

Oh God, why is such and such happening? It must have been something to do with me, and just have to be hypervigilant at all times about everything. And it's incredibly draining. It's incredibly draining. But I'm trying not to live like that, but it's very hard.

Haley Radke: I relate to that so much. If someone doesn't text me back, I think, what did I say? I just, right away.

Gareth Price: Yeah, it's the same.

Haley Radke: They couldn't possibly just be charging their phone or something. It's me.

Gareth Price: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, what have I done? I shouldn't have used that particular word in the last text. I must have triggered them and now they hate me or something.

Haley Radke: Oh yeah. Yeah. The hypervigilance. Oh my goodness. I so get that.

Gareth Price: Yeah. Truth be told, that's one of the biggest attractions of the art world for me, the fact that I can work on my own and I don't have to deal with as many people because people [00:28:00] are absolutely everything to me, right?

I love people so much, and they make life worth living. However, they can be very draining as well, and going into a social situation just takes a hell of a lot of energy. And I love social situations, but I do tend to avoid them if possible. Or if I do go out, they'll be quite short.

Because it just drains the crap out of me, and I'm just trying to be okay with everybody all the time. It's just nuts. It gives the outward appearance of being a very likable person in some cases, but there's a huge price to pay for it.

It would be nice to not give quite so much of a crap about what people think all the time. But it's just totally how I live. I live by the sword, die by the sword, you know?

Haley Radke: It would be so nice to live that way.

Gareth Price: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Sorry. That's [00:29:00] so funny. Do you mind, can we talk a little bit about your sister?

So you were saying she was an angry adoptee even as a kind of a younger age in her teens. Left home. And then you said you also have this anger that's inside and that you've dealt with that for a long time. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Gareth Price: I think a lot of it comes from pretty much everything that I've just said.

Even at the age of 45, I still automatically walk into a room and imagine that something's gotta be my fault. Even if I've just walked into the room, it's Oh God, what have I done? And just from holding all that stuff in and from not being able to express anger whenever I've been upset at something, like particularly growing up with a really aggressive father.

Before he died about four years ago, he had about nine months, poor chap, in a bed in the home. So I got to talk about a lot of this and I told him that [00:30:00] I loved him and I forgive him and stuff. But I haven't, I just told him that because I wanted him to die happy.

It's just an example of how it would be better if I'd been able to say no and just tell people to F off or to just basically own my own life as opposed to be living everybody else's life.

Yeah. It's just so difficult to just relax. It's like all this tension from trying to please everybody so nobody will be upset or angry at me ever. It's just unbelievably tiring. And it just mounts up all this intense amount of repressed rage and all this sort of stuff. And, just all that stuff about why the (beep) did he give me up and all this sort of thing.

And you can rationalize it until the proverbial cows come home. But at the end of the day, it's this raw emotion and the frustration that people just don't get it. And [00:31:00] except for coming to listen to you guys and read about your experiences, and just trying to feel included, trying to feel a part of something, trying to live a relatively normal life and just feel like a relatively normal person, because how it feels is not like that. How it feels is it feels like everybody else has got something that I will never have.

And that's heartbreaking. That's what it feels like pretty much all the time. The alienation and the anger from being so disastrously unique.

Haley Radke: I'm just curious about your feelings and your sister's feelings about adoption. Because you said, you grew up and you had these same experiences and yet you feel differently.

Gareth Price: I think that she does still have all these feelings, but she doesn't talk to me. I feel guilty because we don't really have as close a relationship as twins should have or [00:32:00] brother and sister, or whatever. I think we're getting closer as we get older, but she's quite different to me.

She's quite a different person. Like we're, at our core, we're basically the same, but I think that she has the same feelings, like every so often she'll open up a little bit. But it's just one of the two ways to deal with it. It's like you either pretty much shut down as much as you can about that side, because it's just too much to deal with.

Or, you start going into it the whole way. There doesn't seem to be much in between. Especially as you get older, you have to go quite ferociously at it, or you just have to just block it out of your head forever. And that's what I feel like my birth mother has done.

If she started looking into it, my fear is that it would just be too much for her to handle because there's just so much there. And I can understand how people do that, but it doesn't make it any easier, [00:33:00] really.

Haley Radke: Let's shift to talking about what are some things that you have done, like you said that a lot of these feelings come out in your artwork. And you said you've been to therapy on and off. So what are some other things that you've done to pursue healing?

Gareth Price: Listen to your podcast. Um, books are quite helpful. Everything is sort of helpful. Therapy, and I'm reading this book at the moment.

Oh no, I've read the book called Adoption Therapy: Perspectives from Clients and Clinicians. Have you read that one, edited by Laura Dennis?

Haley Radke: Yes, I have it.

Gareth Price: And the Coming Home to Self is the one that I'm reading at the moment and that one is the most intense one I'm reading. I'm having to read it very slowly because there's so much in it. It's like I can get through about maybe one or two pages and then I have to put it down and go, Oh my goodness, that's just intense.

Yeah, but to change the habits of a lifetime, even alter them [00:34:00] slightly, is very hard. And I've had, you know, ongoing addiction problems. Like I had alcohol issues for many years and it's just the numbing out a little bit. There’s the three options which are option one is just living as you are with your pain and trying to get by with it.

Option two is doing a drug or something and basically feeling better temporarily, which is, that's the attraction of it, it's reliable. Or option three is doing therapy which eventually does do a lot of good, but it takes so long. I've done it on and off for years.

And it does help, the best therapy really does help and it's wonderful. And it's made my life a better place, but sometimes all it does is just make you aware of what the actual issue is. It just shines a light on it and makes you more aware of it. Which is helpful, but [00:35:00] initially it's a struggle like when you feel like, Oh my goodness, so that's all that I've got to deal with, oh goodness.

Haley Radke: When you were talking about reading the book one page at a time, I was like, Oh, I've totally done that because I read a page and I'm like, Oh my god, that's another thing I have? Come on, I already have a hundred problems.

Gareth Price: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's an advantage, my fiancée is a psychotherapist. That's an advantage. I feel like when she comes home from work, from seeing however many screwed-up people, and then it’s coming home to another one. It’s kind of like, Oh God, how was your day, Gareth?

Oh, you really want to know? I spent it sitting doing my painting and having an existential crisis for eight hours.

Haley Radke: It's interesting that you say that because you must be while you're painting, you're in this other world, but it's still in your head. [00:36:00]

Gareth Price: I describe myself as a skeptic who lives in a fantasy world. The other podcasts I listen to they're about UFOs and aliens and stuff. But they're skeptical views on them. There's this one called Skeptoid, which I like a lot, and things like that. So I find that stuff really quite grounding.

Haley Radke: I love that your playlist has that and Adoptees On on it. That makes me so happy.

Gareth Price: Oh, I did alright then, did I? Skeptoid and Adoptees On. Woohoo! And there's also another one called Strange Matters, which is good, too. This is where my brain goes from day to day. I think my head is a nice place to visit, but it's not that great living there.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Can we talk a little bit about your relationship with your fiancée? Are you okay with that?

Gareth Price: Yeah, sure.

Haley Radke: I'm curious about how you've [00:37:00] expressed to her your adoption issues and if she got it right away, or like that kind of dynamic.

Gareth Price: Adoption issues to me seem virtually to be all trauma issues essentially. And she's got lots of books about it, and she's studied many years about how to deal with trauma.

And that's essentially what it is. It's healing trauma. Just this year, I remember reading this comparison between being given up at birth and PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder, and it really knocked me for six. It's Oh (beep), is it actually that bad?

Is it actually? And all the categories fit. It's just nuts, and that really blew me away. Cause it's like, do you have this and this? And it's, Oh yeah, I do. Oh my goodness. And God knows how many other adoptees feel the same way. I'm assuming there's quite a lot [00:38:00] judging by what I've seen on the good old internet.

But yeah, it is a form of PTSD. And it's like, jeepers, that's so intense. It's been good to talk to her about it. She tells me it's okay, that I can talk to her whenever I want to, but I still try to pick my moments because it's what she does professionally. So I try to not burden her with it too much.

She's really great, and in some ways I wish that she'd tell me to not talk to her about it every so often, but she's never like that. It's like she's too giving, and I don't know why that's a problem for me. That's a very odd issue to have. I don't know, maybe it's something about I don't deserve it or something like that. I don't know, I'm just an emotional minefield.

Haley Radke: Even when you're talking about adoption trauma as a form of [00:39:00] PTSD and when I hear that comparison, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I feel guilty because is my pain the same as someone who is a soldier that comes back from a minefield? It's just one more layer of feeling guilty and having trauma and just, ugh.

Gareth Price: Yeah, I remember reading or listening to somebody who was saying something about disassociation that happens to trauma victims. And that's always been a really big thing for me, dissociative feelings, like this kind of separating from the reality of my surroundings. It happens every so often, and it's really frightening.

And it wasn't until I started reading these books, and, a few years ago now, that I actually started to find some relief. And thank God. Because you just feel completely mad. And panic attacks. There was a period of about maybe two years where I couldn't go to the [00:40:00] supermarket. And I stopped going to the movies because I'd hyperventilate and things like that. It's just terrible.

It's absolutely dreadful. In that sense alcohol was a savior. I remember when I first started to see a psychologist, one of the first things he said was, Congratulations, you learned to medicate with alcohol. That was a very clever thing to do. And I thought that he was being sarcastic, but he wasn't. And that was a very helpful thing that he said. He said it's quite a natural way for you to adjust to your surroundings.

And there's this other thing that was about how when whole towns are destroyed by whatever happens, like some kind of natural disaster or whatever, all these kids and families and stuff, they experienced this great massive trauma, but then they seem to recover from it in a relatively quick way in the intervening years to come, and it's primarily because, this is what this article was saying, it's primarily because the people around them [00:41:00] know that what they experienced was traumatic and they relate to them accordingly.

Whereas with adoption it's not like that. You don't get that. It's like people just see it as this miracle fix and they don't recognize it as trauma. And there's no mirroring of your experience. I think that's the most dangerous thing, and that's the reason why it's so incredibly alienating.

It's like, Hello, I'm being raised by these strangers in this family where none of them look or behave like me. I remember meeting my obviously birth mother, and that was amazing, but even bigger than that was meeting all my birth father's family, a lot of them at one time, and seeing things like their eye shape, or their nose shape, or gestures that they would do, or jokes that they would crack.

That's just unbelievable. You can't explain that to somebody. To actually be able to see, [00:42:00] to actually be able to see yourself in other people when you haven't had it ever is the most amazing gift that I've ever had, ever. And it's true, just seeing your biology reflected in those around you.

If you haven't had it, it's unbelievable to just have it and to just feel that connection. And even things like scent, this sounds a bit weird, but it's true. It's like people have their particular scents, smells and things, they're subtle. But that's massive.

All that sort of stuff, it's like you just get this, just everything. Even if you don't click with them amazingly as people, you still get that biological reflection of yourself. And it's unbelievable. It took me quite a while to realize how big an impact it actually had on me.

Haley Radke: And you grew up with a sister.

Gareth Price: Yeah, exactly, and I grew up with a sister, yeah, [00:43:00] but we are very different. She's blonde and she's got quite a different face shape. I don't know, we're just two people born at the same time.

Haley Radke: I so appreciate you sharing your story.

So for this series, Season 3 is the Creative Series, my recommendations are to go and check out my guests’ work. I go and see Gareth's website. He's got all of these amazing photos of his artwork there. And you could stare at one for a very long time and not see everything.

You've got so many different objects in each painting. And you can guess what Gareth was thinking when he was painting this, all the symbolism. You'll probably get people messaging you saying what does the whale in the sky mean?

Gareth Price: From a purely business perspective, I do have prints. If [00:44:00] anybody wants to buy prints, I'll give you a good deal. But, anyway, I have particular meanings for each painting, but I'll generally only tell people if they ask, because you always bring yourself to the work, obviously. And I think it was the great Picasso who made some comment about the viewer completes the work. And it's very true.

And you bring your own experiences. And I love talking about my work, I really do, but I don't want to push it on people. I certainly will if they ask what something's about I can totally tell them. But otherwise, not everybody wants to know, some people are just happy with the mystery.

I don't know if anybody else watched Twin Peaks, the second series or the third series of Twin Peaks that just finished. It was wonderful, but it was a bit frustrating because David Lynch is a bit [00:45:00] like that. He's very much an artist and he left the mystery hanging open.

That's what art is really good at if it's worthwhile art. I feel it opens people up a little bit and peeks into bits of them that perhaps they didn't know were there. Or they might wonder why they like one picture over another picture, like why did I like that picture? Because it's actually quite dark. Or why do I like that one? I don't normally like that kind of thing, and all that sort of stuff.

I've found that time and again with works of art that I like. What's relatable to me about that? I don't even know. My subconscious liked it before my conscious did.

Haley Radke: I just want to walk through an art gallery with you. You're too far away from me.

Gareth Price: I'm right here on the screen.

Haley Radke: It's true. It's true. Oh I'm having like, you're giving me art lessons. It's wonderful. What would you like to recommend?

Gareth Price: It's a bit tricky for this one. I did think about it a bit. [00:46:00] I don't really know too many artists at all that I know whether they're adopted or not. What I've seen of Shannon Peck. Yeah, I haven't seen that in the flesh, but that seems really pointed and really quite amazing. I think that's incredible.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I got to interview her for Season 3 and dig into a lot of what she did in her exhibit, “Your Daughter is in Good Hands.”

Gareth Price: Oh, great! Oh, that's awesome. I'm trying to have the courage to deal with adoption a bit more directly in the works that I'm doing. Like, I've got this one painting that I'm doing that is almost finished and it's called “The Statue of Eternal Maternity.” And it continues with the theme of people surviving trauma and how they cope with it. But in terms of recommended resources, I think it's art and music. They're so personal, I think I could list a whole bunch of artists that I [00:47:00] like, like Dali, of course, and Alex Gross, and there's heaps of them, but all this stuff is just so personal, and also music is a massive thing for me.

Anything that makes you really feel something is a recommended resource. I just found my lost iPod which I last used about 10 years ago. And it's got all these wonderful songs on it that I haven't heard for a long time. And so I just walk around, just go for a walk and put the iPod on.

And music really helps me emote. If I'm feeling upset about something and I feel like I need to cry or get really angry or something, then I'll go to a particular song and it really helps. It really does. There's a lot to be said for it.

So I can only recommend people to just do what they do anyway, and in that sense just put on their favorite sad song or their favorite happy song, or go on the internet and find their favorite [00:48:00] whatever it is, you know?

Haley Radke: There's a lot to be said about making space for that. Our lives are very full and we're always listening to different things and not necessarily music. For me, I have podcasts always on, but making space for that, going for a walk and listening to some music and stuff. Yeah.

Gareth Price: Yeah, that's the recommended resource that I would say is just to take the time for yourself and, if it is a podcast or whatever it is you listen to, just go for a walk or just take time to feel your emotions, which is the most important thing,

Haley Radke: That feels scary.

Gareth Price: It is very scary. Yeah, just anything that you want that really grounds you or helps you. Helps you emote. Yeah, it just really helps you connect with what you're trying to connect to. It's not really for me to say because it's so personal. I like Radiohead. There's a Scottish electronic duo called Boards of Canada, who I absolutely love, and there's a whole bunch of stuff, there's just [00:49:00] endless amounts of Prince, anything by Prince. This is all personal to me and it just connects me to bits of myself that I was going to say that I can't get to any other way, but that's not entirely true. It just helps, it just really helps if you get that great feeling from a great artist if it's a musical or a visual artist. And just go there if you need to. You know better than anybody what that is. Or alternatively, go to my website and I'll fulfill every desire that you have.

Haley Radke: Yes. Where can we connect with you online?

Gareth Price: www.garethprice.co.nz, G-A-R-E-T-H-P-R-I-C-E. And I've got a few works that I need to put up on it. But it's got a little bit about me, my art on there.

Haley Radke: There's even a video clip which shows some of your work. I watched it today. And you're also on Facebook. People want to check you out there and connect with you there.

Gareth Price: It's Gareth Price and there's a photo of a pelican trying to [00:50:00] catch a fish.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for sharing some of your story and really diving into some of the things you've struggled with. I really appreciate how candid you've been with us. Thank you.

Gareth Price: Oh, that's all I did. Thank you very much. I was very honored to be asked. Thank you very much. It's been, yeah, it's been awesome. Thank you so much.

Haley Radke: Gareth has just finished up this piece called “The Statue of Eternal Maternity” and he showed it to me when we had our interview and he just sent me a photo of it. Guys, it's amazing. I can't wait for him to share it. He described it to me as comfort after trauma and it's exactly that and isn't that what we need? Oh, I just love it.

This podcast is brought to you every week because of my monthly supporters and Gareth is one of those generous Patreon supporters. And he's a part of the Secret [00:51:00] Adoptees On Facebook Group, like he mentioned. This private and safe space for adoptees only is my way of thanking you for partnering up with Adoptees On.

It's a mix of past guests and listeners, just like you, who are looking for an intimate and supportive community. Only myself and the other members will know you're a member. That's what secret group means. And if you want to join, you can visit adopteeson.com/partner for the details or you can just message me on Twitter or Facebook or adopteeson.com if you have any questions.

Speaking of adoptees, which we always are, I have a little message here for you from a fellow adoptee.

Paige Adams Strickland: Hi, everyone. My name is Paige Strickland, and I'm an adoptee from Cincinnati, Ohio. I've written two memoirs about my experiences as an adult adopted person, Akin to the Truth and After the Truth.

The first focuses on childhood and growing up. The brand new book, After the Truth, focuses on life as a reunited adopted adult and how adoption influences my teaching, parenting and friendships. [00:52:00] Books are available through Amazon and Kindle.

Haley Radke: Thanks for sending that in, Paige. If you're an adoptee and would like to promote your work on the podcast, head over to adopteeson.com/connect and click on the little microphone. You can record your message and I'd be happy to share it on a future episode of the show. I love hearing your voices.

Last thing today, guys, would you do me a favor and share the show with a friend that doesn't even know what a podcast is? I would love for you to take their phone, subscribe them to this show and one or two of your other favorite podcasts.

This is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. They're happy because podcasts are amazing, right? And you're happy because you look like a technological genius, which you are. And I'm thrilled to have a new listener. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday [00:53:00].

44 Shannon - Your Daughter is in Good Hands

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/44

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 5, Shannon. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today I'm going to introduce you to Shannon Peck, a conceptual artist whose work is sparking conversations. I have been slightly obsessed with her as of late because anything that makes people pause and reflect on what adoption actually means to an infant and its mother. That's incredibly important work, and we just need more of it.

We wrap up our discussion today with recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we talk about will be on the website, adopteeson.com. Just before we get started, I want to make sure you're subscribed to the show in your favorite podcatcher, like Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, [00:01:00] and you'll get next week's episode delivered automatically. So easy. Okay, let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome Shannon Peck to Adoptees On. Welcome, Shannon.

Shannon Peck: Thanks Bailey.

Haley Radke: I think I first found you on Instagram and I followed some of your preparations for an art exhibit that you are doing and I think that's where we first connected.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, I think it was.

Haley Radke: I'd love to first get a bit of your story, and then I would love to talk about your art with you, if that's alright. Why don't you start with your story?

Shannon Peck: I was born April 3, 1970. And my birth mother relinquished me at 10 days of age, which was in British Columbia. That was as soon as you were allowed to sign on the dotted line. On the 11th day, I was picked up by my adoptive [00:02:00] parents and taken home to meet my older brother. Yeah, I didn't spend any time in foster care and I was picked up directly from the hospital.

Haley Radke: And is he adopted as well?

Shannon Peck: My older brother is adopted, and I also have two younger siblings who are my parents’ biological children, so there's four of us in the family. Big mixed bag of kids. It was a pretty idyllic family, four kids, I always knew I was adopted. Whenever I had questions, I'd ask my mom about being adopted and she'd tell me about my birth mother, the little bit of information she had. There was a filing cabinet they had a few records in, so I could go in there any time I wanted to look at letters that came from the ministry that my mom and dad had on file.

So I always felt comfortable in asking them about that. That was never an issue. I went through life not thinking anything much about being adopted. Always was very curious about my birth family. [00:03:00] And when I turned 19, my mom told me that I was old enough, I was allowed to apply for non-identifying information from the B.C. government. I went ahead and mailed in my birth certificate copy and applied for that and I got a pretty benign typed three paragraphs of information. One about my birth mother saying she was 21 and what she looked like. A paragraph about my birth father, and then a paragraph saying they had met in Europe, she was on vacation, it was a short-term duration relationship, and I was best placed in a family with two parents.

So a lot of the typical story that adoptees hear. And after that, again, I didn't really do a lot with that information, there was nothing to be done. I didn't have any names, and I went through life, university, got married, and then in 1996, all of a sudden, I heard on the news that B.C. was opening the adoption records.[00:04:00]

And all of a sudden, we could apply and get copies of our original birth certificate. So I was lined up at the door on the first day that we could apply and paid my 30 dollars and I knew that in a few months I would know who my birth parents were and what my birth name was. And I waited and waited.

Probably it was about six months later that I finally got a call from the ministry and went in to pick up my file. And when I did, I was taken into a conference room and there was a social worker there and it all seemed rather serious. And I wasn't sure why, but when they sat me down, they told me my birth mother had filed a veto on the record.

She was one of probably just a few percent of birth parents that did that. So the veto meant I would get my records, but anything that had her name on it would literally be blacked out. So I got 40 pages of records with blackouts on [00:05:00] my birth certificate. My birth father wasn't noted on my birth certificate at all which, again, is quite common.

But interestingly enough, she did file a statement with the veto saying why she didn't want me to know who she was. And she basically said, adoption's a personal matter. I don't wish the adoptee to locate me. I don't know who or where the father is. And my family doesn't know about this incident and that was kind of, pretty blunt and yeah, that was all there was to it.

I took all my information home and I remember saying to my husband when I got home, I'm not an “incident,” I'm a little girl, like, how ridiculous is that in this day and age? But, I just filed it away and moved on. My adoptive father had just passed away and I was going through a difficult time. So it was something that clearly I wasn't ready to deal with at that point.

And again, years and years [00:06:00] went by and occasionally I'd pull the papers out and look at them and it was fun and interesting to read through the records. Look at my health records. Look at my adoptive parents. Their social worker visits when I was placed and, you'd read about the family dog and my brother and little outings we had and their take on my parents, which was in some cases quite funny to see what they had to say. But yeah, I just left it till about 2011. And I ended up in counseling. My husband and I were having a really difficult time and we had started counseling, couples counseling.

And then, my husband had done a workshop on attachment and he said, Shannon, you might like this, maybe be open minded, check it out. So I signed up for a 10-week workshop on attachment with a local counselor, and it was a women’s only workshop. And I think there were only four or five of us in the group.

And I went on the first night, and more of us started telling us about what attachment was, and [00:07:00] explaining the bond between mother and child, and how our brains are still forming in the first six, seven years of life, and how that not getting an attachment or having a broken bond can affect how we make relationship in later life.

And I said to her, I was adopted at birth but that never affected me, I have great parents, I have a fabulous family, that has nothing to do, and then I said, Okay, Shannon, you need to open your mind and at least you need to listen to this because I think you're missing out on something.

Over the course of the next week or two, I started to become very much interested in what she was saying about attachment and I'd come home and research all I could and then I came across Nancy Verrier's book, The Primal Wound, and I was instantly out of the fog. I started reading that and it just hit me and I was like, oh my goodness, I can't believe I've been living in a fog my [00:08:00] whole adult life, thinking being adopted didn't affect me. And frankly, I look at my cycle in relationships and friendships and I've got all the telltale signs of someone that is scared of being rejected, abandoned and hurt. Yeah, that workshop was just eye-opening and I just started reading and taking in anything I could and trying to figure out what my triggers were and understanding better how I could stop that cycle that I had of, whether it was like control or inability to be vulnerable with friends or my spouse, and just accepting who I was. It's still a work in progress, but at least reading and understanding that information helped me realize why I was doing the things I was doing, and there was nothing wrong with me. I had a trauma at birth and this is why I continued this cycle of events.

So to me, that was like the turning point [00:09:00] in my adult life where I really started to accept myself. And that's when I stepped back into doing art. I've been doing art my whole life, but that's when I really started taking more of an interest in my life as art, and looking at how my identity was shaped. And whether it was through painting that I did, or textile art that I did, and just really focusing on myself as a child that had a past with hurt and trying to come to terms with that.

Haley Radke: That is so fascinating because I talk to a lot of adoptees who get placed with adoptive parents and it's not great, or they're abused, or there's just something there that is not right. So it's easy to look at them and be like, of [00:10:00] course, adoption has affected them, and you described your childhood as idyllic. And it sounds like your mom was really supportive, saying you're 19, you can apply for your non-identifying information and stuff. So it sounds like you have had really supportive parents and everything. And yet there's still this influence on your life.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, there's definitely still a longing, right? A longing to know where you're from and where your roots are and who those people are that made you. Because you can adopt your adoptive parents’ heritage but it's never the same. It's never who you truly are inside and you can pretend that it is, but that only lasts so long.

Haley Radke: Yeah, it was interesting. Even just how you were speaking about sitting in this conference room with the social worker and realizing you're not going to get the information that you hoped for. Oh, okay, but I'm not an incident. I don't know. It's like [00:11:00] you just have to have this flat affect just to preserve yourself. I'm not ready to look at this yet. That and you're so right, it's such a low percentage of birth parents who veto in every state or province that opens up.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, they say it's like one to one to two percent, if that. Yeah, I got the lucky number.

Haley Radke: So lucky. So lucky. Okay. So you started reconnecting with art.

Shannon Peck: I started with actually a class down in Victoria by Nick Pearce. He's a painter and he does a workshop called “Through Artists’ Eyes.”

And it's a workshop where you paint yourself and you paint yourself as a nude and it's a way of connecting with your image and just getting comfortable with who you are as yourself and reconnecting with yourself. And I actually took the workshop three times. It's with a group of women.

You each have your picture you're painting from and you spend the weekend just connecting with other [00:12:00] women who have had various challenges in life and are trying to figure out who they are, and that work really helped move me a little further along in acceptance of myself.

Following that, I got back into textiles, which I have done my entire life. I've stitched since the time I was probably four or five years old. Always liked to do embroidery and sewing through high school and something that always gave me comfort. So I started working on some embroideries and attended a workshop actually, in Tennessee, a stitching as drawing workshop.

And my thought was to start stitching my story of being adopted. And I was going to start with the anatomical basics of like, how is a baby made? And I had an anatomy coloring book that I had got from the thrift store with these scientific drawings and I thought they'd translate well to embroidery.

So I started doing the male and [00:13:00] female body parts and reproductive organs. And then came a baby that I embroidered and it was a week long course. So I worked with the instructor and she was a really good mentor that week in helping me work towards figuring out how I could bring an exhibit together. Yeah, just how I could bring ideas together that would be meaningful.

And so I came home from that class just really excited about moving forward with that. And as I got home, I thought I'll start looking through my old adoption records. They were pretty dog- eared by that point, they were about 20 years old, so I reapplied to the ministry for a new set of my file. I knew it would still be redacted, but I thought at least I'd have better copies. And that arrived around Christmas, I think, of 2014.

I got the file. I didn't think anything of it. I sat it around, and a few days before Christmas I pulled it out to go through it. And, lo and behold, on a page where there was an [00:14:00] interview with my birth mother in Catholic Services, they missed redacting my birth mother's first name. And on the original documents, her name was definitely redacted, but they had missed it this time.

So all of a sudden I had a name, I had a first name for my birth mother. And I was just beside myself that I knew she had a name. She became a real person at that point. I phoned up my family and I was telling them about it, and I sat the records aside and the next day I thought, if they missed that, there may be other things that they missed.

Maybe I better go through this really carefully. And on page three of my records, I already knew my birth name which was Carrie Lee, but I found my surname at birth, which was my birth mother's surname as well. And I found her birth date on another page, and I found my entire name again on my medical records in the file.

So somebody had done a really poor job in [00:15:00] redacting the information, which I was thrilled about at that point. So it was like, I think probably within 24 hours online through Ancestry, I found my birth mother's entire family history. They were written up in the history books of the town in Alberta that they're from. I found paragraphs about her taking a trip to Europe and then coming back and moving to Vancouver, which totally matched the information I had from the ministry, which said my birth mother went to Europe on a holiday and came back pregnant and moved to Vancouver. So it was just eye opening for me.

And again, at the time, I said to my husband, I know it wasn't even knowing my birth mother's name as much as I finally knew who I was for those first 11 days of my life. I had a different identity at that time. And I finally knew who that identity was. And I felt like there was a [00:16:00] child that had been trapped inside me.

There was the Shannon Peck, who I am now, and there was the Carrie. Lee, who was this little girl at 11 days old who was given away, and I felt like that was the beginning of finally being able to reconcile those two people back into one person. Yeah, again, I didn't realize adoption had affected me, I didn't realize that I was really struggling with the rejection, with abandonment, and with just a feeling of loss.

I didn't realize what that was until I found it.

Haley Radke: So what did you do with this information? You know who she is?

Shannon Peck: Yeah. So I had that information and I started searching online and I had found her, but I didn't obviously have her married name. But with the help of another genealogist online, I found my birth mother's [00:17:00] mother's obituary. And within probably 10 minutes, I was able to locate cousins on Facebook and then a half brother and then my birth mother who was on Facebook. And I came face to face with pictures of her and her husband and her son, who's my half brother, and they live 90 minutes south of me. Yeah, so that was even harder, I think, because she's so close, but she might as well be halfway around the world because she's not interested in knowing me. So I think that made it a lot harder just to come to terms with that at the time.

Haley Radke: Yeah. And I have shared before that, I did find mine and then we had a brief reunion and then she cut off contact, but she's 20 minutes and I could be on her front doorstep.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, it's just so hard. So hard, because I think I could just drive down there. With Google Maps, you can see where people live. I could knock on her [00:18:00] door, but I just can't be that invasive, so I left it at that. I knew who she was, I looked at her on Facebook, I found a bunch of pictures and information and at that point, I just really focused on my exhibit that I was working on. I think that Exhibit at that point really started to take a different shape.

When I first started, my goal was to write about my adoption story. And it was more like a rebuttal to the disclosure veto that my birth mother had written. It was like an F you, you don't want to know me, but I'm an awesome person and this is my story. And I think when I got to see that she was actually a human being, and I could understand what she maybe had gone through as an unwed mother and growing up in a very staunch Catholic home, and really having no choice in giving me up that, yes, she became more of a human being and [00:19:00] my story in my exhibit became more of one about understanding what adoption was like and the social construct that was created by social workers and the government to aid in finding homes for these children and the shame that was around that for birth mothers and for adoptees and the problems with identity. So it became more an educational exhibit that was, although it was my story, it was more a way for people to understand what it was like in that period of time as an adoptee.

It's interesting because when I first started the exhibit, I wrote a letter to my birth mother that I didn't send. I didn't know who she was at the time. I just wrote a letter and I'd never actually done that before. So I was like 45 or 44 and I wrote a letter to my birth mother. I'm not an angry person. I'm pretty positive and upbeat, but you definitely could read [00:20:00] into it some anger and frustration. And I probably redrafted the letter 200 times in the four years before I actually sent her the letter. It's really fascinating to read through those letters and watch how the language, my language, changed over the years as I felt like I got to know her as a person, even though it was through Facebook, but just through reading about her family and her experiences.

And I think in coming to terms with things myself, it just became more of a letter that showed vulnerability, showed forgiveness, and showed that I was more at peace with what had happened. So I continued to work on the exhibit, and in 2016, it was probably about seven months before the exhibit launched, I decided I should send a letter to my birth mother, because I wanted her to know that the exhibit was happening. I wanted her to know that [00:21:00] I knew who she was and I didn't want her to freak out in case she saw the advertisements for the exhibit. The fiber community on the island is fairly small and I know my birth mother's also involved in fiber.

Yeah, she's a quilter, an avid quilter, and I do fiber and quilting. We have two degrees of separation between many friends online, so I thought I should reach out to her and at least tell her. So I wrote her a long letter and sent pictures, and I sent this letter by registered mail.

And one of the funny things I did, which kind of shows my quirky sense of humor, was when you opened the envelope, the first thing you saw was from a record album. It wasn't The Sound of Music, but it was some other album where there was a nun waving on a bicycle. And my birth mother grew up Catholic, and I was adopted Catholic. So the first thing she opened and saw was this nun waving to her on a bicycle, which is just a little bit of my wicked sense of humor. [00:22:00]. Obviously she signed for the letter, opened it, and I got notification from Canada Post that she had signed for it.

And then her Facebook page within a couple of days was pretty tight. Like I could only see her profile picture. Everything else was removed. So I knew she was freaking out at that point, that she was absolutely fearful I was going to show up, even though I said I would not. I knew at that point that her family didn't know, her husband and son didn't know. But I needed her to know that I was doing this exhibit and she was free to come and see it if she wanted.

Which was probably not going to happen, but I wanted to let her know that was going to happen. Yeah, it was a very strange time. Not expecting to get a response, but still hoping to get a response. And waiting, waiting, and I think the first six weeks I was, like, waiting. And then, as more time passed, it was like, okay, it's not [00:23:00] happening. She's clearly had a secret for 46 years, 47 years. That's not going to change. It's got to be forced out of her if anything's going to change.

Yeah, I just kept moving along on my exhibit and by the time April came around I had almost 84 pieces stitched for my show, which included everything from, I think I had about 25 hand-stitched and -sewn garments and dresses with quotes from my adoption history. And those were paired with a lot of the anatomical parts. So you had this whole scientific bit that was harsh and unassuming with these little baby dresses that had quotes about me being an incident and quotes about my adoptive parents being model people and quotes about my birth parents and their descriptions. I had dolls.

Yeah, [00:24:00] it was quite an undertaking to put together. It took me a total of four years. So when it did finally end up in the gallery, it was eight hours to install. And then it was three weeks in the gallery.

I remember the day it opened, which happened to be on my birthday, which was serendipitous, not planned, but I went in and spent some time in the gallery and the first person I met in the gallery was one of the volunteers. And she had not only relinquished a child at birth, she had also adopted a child. Almost every one of the volunteers that was a volunteer at the gallery had an adoptee story to tell me. And it was like, wow.

And that first day in the gallery, I was there for maybe two hours and every person that came in was crying walking through, and people coming up to me, sobbing and me holding these people who were strangers [00:25:00] in my arms. And I went home that afternoon and that night. And I said to my husband, what the hell have I done? I don't know if I can handle this. There's three weeks of this. And he's like, well, this is what you wanted.

But I expected there'd be an emotional response, but the response was so overwhelming by not just people that were adoptees and birth parents, but by anyone and everyone that walked in there that it still boggles me to this day.

Haley Radke: I remember seeing your Instagram feed and so I was seeing some of the things that weren't finished yet. And things you were moving towards and I was just stunned. And tonight, just before we got on the call, I went back through your website and you have this beautiful gallery of photos from the exhibit. And I just started sobbing. I genuinely started [00:26:00] going through it and I'm like, it is so moving. I'm fine. It's fine.

Shannon Peck: It’s okay. You're a crier.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Everyone knows I'm a crier. I know. I totally am. The quotes that you have stitched on these little white sheath dresses, right? It's “Your Daughter is in Good Hands” and then the mirror that you have, and there's words that say, “Are you my mother?” And I can picture women going through and looking at themselves in this mirror and how profound is that? You have captured so many pieces of the adoption experience.

I wish I could have been there. I so deeply wish I could have seen the exhibit in person but the photos will have to do. The other thing that you had, right now and you mentioned earlier, “My family does not [00:27:00] know about this incident.” And then you have these little wooden blocks right above, like the kids’ wooden blocks, that say “incident” on top.

And I'm looking through these pictures and everything in my body is just feeling the weight of that. You are a secret from her whole family. And what does that mean when you come back looking for her? It's exactly what's happened. Secondary rejection. And there's so many of us that have experienced that.

You're shifting the cultural narrative, Shannon. Do you know what you've done? Seriously. It's amazing.

Shannon Peck: Thank you. It was very eye opening. And I think the three weeks that I spent in the gallery, my intention was to go every couple of days because they had full-time volunteers there. But after the first two days, I said to my husband, I need to be here every day in the [00:28:00] gallery. I need to be there to hear people's stories because everyone that came in wanted to talk to me and they wanted to tell me their story or their sister's story or their brother's story, their husband's story. And so we made arrangements to have someone help in our business during those three weeks so I could take more time to be in the gallery.

And I was there, anywhere from three hours a day to eight hours on some days and just listening to stories that were, like we know, sad and tragic and others were beautiful and hopeful. Yeah, just everything in between and it was both beautiful and sad to know that so many people cared and that so many people were interested and wanting to learn and understand about what it had been like for birth mothers in that era and what [00:29:00] adopted children go through. And most adopted children don't even either recognize or don't talk about it.

It's a social stigma that just is off left. The one thing with fiber that I think is easy for people to understand is if you walk into a gallery and you see paintings on the wall or big giant sculptures, sometimes people are just a bit cold. People don't even know how to take them. But if you walk in a gallery and you see an embroidery or you see a little girl's dress, it's just calming to people. And even if the words on that dress sucker punch you, it is still easier, I think, for them to understand and to take in the story and to feel empathy towards what's happened or what's gone on in that case.

Haley Radke: You even had a crib in one corner. The crib, and can you explain what was on the blanket and what was [00:30:00] printed on it?

Shannon Peck: Yeah, the crib was a big part of what I wanted people to walk in and see a nursery because I knew immediately they would think of the child. And so in the crib, I had a few things. I had my birth certificate, so my birth certificate, which was not my original birth certificate but my amended birth certificate when I was adopted. And I had the Supreme Court order of my adoption made into a baby quilt. And it was the full crib length with all little kinds of vintage embroidered little deer and bunnies and all those kinds of things you'd imagine on a baby blanket.

And then I had the letter stating that my birth mother had signed the relinquishment and the letter from Catholic Services on another quilt hanging over the crib. The way quilts are nice and soft and comforting but, again, the words on those quilts were things that can be devastating.

I had dolls in the [00:31:00] crib and baby blocks that said different things, had my birth names and had my relinquishment date and birth date. I had a little silver tray that I had done. It was this ornate tray and it had hand-embroidered “You're not an incident” or “I'm not an incident, I'm a little girl.”

I'd done a double-headed selfie doll, which at the time felt like I was reintegrating myself as an adult with that 10-day-old child that was relinquished. I made this double-headed selfie doll. And my mom at the time was like, what the heck are you doing? Like I had this two-headed doll that didn't have feet. It had these little mermaid legs on it. And nobody at the time really had a clue what I was doing until they walked in the gallery and they could see, they got a sense of the context with that reintegration. [00:32:00]

Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit about that? You said you spent four years preparing this exhibit and over this time you said you came out of the fog in 2011 and you know that you're processing things and healing. Can you talk a little bit about actually making these things for the exhibit and what that did for you?

Shannon Peck: With fiber, like I mentioned, it's a nice soft thing you're working with. You're working with cloth and you're working with thread and you have your needle. It's a really simple thing. And for me, I'm a very tactile person. I find it easier to get my feelings out if I'm sewing or if I'm writing. I have a hard time finding words often. I really have to do a lot of preparation if I'm going to speak. I have to spend a long time thinking about what to say because the words don't come to me easy.

So when I'm working with textiles it gives me a way just to connect with my inner [00:33:00] self. And as I was stitching, I made, for instance, a pillowcase that had a stitched version of the veto statement that my birth mother wrote about me being an incident. And I probably spent three weeks hand stitching her words over and over every night as I worked on that I thought about her and I thought about what she had gone through and I thought about every one of those letters and words and what it meant and, yes, some of those words, like being called an incident, it is like you think, well, that's a hurtful thing but I also could look at it and think.

As I stitched these long hours understanding her fear and her shame. And she was disconnected. She had disconnected herself from that 21-year-old person who was pregnant and alone in Vancouver and gave birth. So it really helped me process the pain and suffering that I had, but also [00:34:00] process the pain that she felt.

It helped me forge a strong relationship with my mom and my family, my adoptive family. I've never been one that's rocked the boat when it comes to talking about things that are emotional or deep because I'm always worried about what people are going to think. But as I started stitching, I was feeling more comfortable about asking my mom about circumstances, about picking me up at the hospital, or what she noticed or anything else she remembered about how my mom and dad had named me, about how she felt, like she grew up in the era of the 60s. So what was it like for her to grow up in that era? She knew women that had given children away and understanding kind of better from her perspective what that was like.

The stitching is challenging in some ways and it's [00:35:00] also peaceful, and just over and over stitching. It's that repetition of stitch after stitch and just thinking I probably spent I don't know how many thousands of hours and four years stitching little tiny stitches and that whole time just immersed in my story and my identity and my birth mother's identity. I think to the point my husband was like, okay, enough already. Like four years, every minute of every day. That's all you talk about. That's all you do. But I'm sure you get that.

It really helped me come to terms with where I was and helped me express and vent my feelings through my art. Even with the fact my birth father was non-existent on my birth certificate. I knew that he was 22. I knew he was in the Air Force, and she met him in Europe. I knew what he looked like, and I knew a couple interests he [00:36:00] had based on the interviews she gave Catholic Services, but through the stitching, I felt like I didn't know who this person was, and I figured I never would, but I made up a name on my birth certificate for my birth father based on what his description was.

So he was known to me as Happy-go-Lucky because that was how he was described. And so I made him a real person at least on my birth certificate. So I felt I had two birth parents, at least. And that stitching helped me move through a lot of things over four years.

Haley Radke: It's interesting, what you said, you like to write and you like to do the stitching and stuff, but the stitching, you can get things out that you don't have words for, and I think it's like that for a lot of arts and with our adoption trauma, most of us that I've interviewed and that listen were [00:37:00] adopted as infants. And so it is pre-verbal trauma that we experienced. So I think it's so powerful to unlock that through different tactile mediums like that. Interesting. So interesting.

Shannon Peck: I think that until I actually did the work and did the exhibit and did the stitching and came through that, it wasn't until I had finished that that I actually could put into words what I had experienced. And my searching, I had spent years searching, and whether I felt like I was searching for my birth mother or myself or for God or for God knows what, like I spent years searching and then finally realizing after all this was done that I felt like what I was searching for was there with me all along, it was inside of me. It was this loss that I'd felt and I was searching to fill this big hole that I had in me. And it wasn't until I could reconcile my [00:38:00] identities, and certainly finding out who my birth mother was played a huge role in that as well.

Haley Radke: And now, the last thing I saw on your social media was all the little fetuses. Oh my gosh. And you sent me this photo of you with the one around your neck. Like a necklace?

Shannon Peck: With a scarf! I had been invited to be in a group show in Victoria at the Martin Batchelor Gallery and it was a show called “Threaded” and basically we could do any fibre thing we wanted and whatever we wanted so on the heels of “Your Daughter in Good Hands” I was still feeling like right in the whole adoption and watching out for children and the whole idea of being disassociated.

And so I decided to stitch a whole grouping of little baby fetuses. And I think I stitched 14 of them in the end, plus one big giant [00:39:00] one. And each of them had their own little identity, their own little brain trauma with different French knots. They had hand-woven and twisted umbilical cords and little wool placentas attached to them.

And each one was tagged with its own name as to what trauma it had been in. And so whether it was like an adopted child or an abandoned child or a child in foster or an abused child or a neglected child or just an unloved child, they each were tagged with what their trauma was. And each of them were stuffed into little glass jars, little terrarium jars with an opening at the front.

So the umbilical cord came out the top and hung there. And they were all grouped on the wall in the gallery. And yeah, it was my way of looking at that, the whole idea of being disassociated either from your birth identity or [00:40:00] the whole attachment thing with having a broken bond with your birth parent.

And that's not just for adoptees, it's for everyone, many children from many different walks of life. Adoptees don't own attachment. Like I've got friends, I have colleagues, they've all got different traumas. And when you look at the root of it, much of it has to do with the attachment and whether they were adopted or their parent didn't attach well to them for one reason or another. We all have that kind of bond together.

Those are my little fetus grouping, yes. And I did make a scarf out of one of them with the scarlet letter “A” on it for adopted. And I think it was a very hot day at the gallery opening and I had my little wool fetus scarf wrapped around my neck. The show got a lot of comments.

A lot of people I think were intrigued. The gallery owner said there was a lot of people that came in were [00:41:00] just like, they found it even offensive. And he was like, he thought that was great because anything that promoted discussion is what he was aiming for.

Haley Radke: But that imagery of having a baby in a glass jar. Basically not attached to anything, right?

Shannon Peck: Yeah.

Haley Radke: It is shocking.

Shannon Peck: But it does help people really see, visually get the sense of what it's like when you take a child from its mother and put it somewhere else. You get a sense of what that would look like. Again art can be words. You can write it down in words, but if you can actually see that visually, it really can bring home the point. And I'm all about pushing the limits on the artistic thing, like the wackier and more eccentric something is I'm happier with it.

Haley Radke: I really admire your [00:42:00] work and I think that you are making a huge impact. So thank you for it. Okay, Shannon. Is there anything else you want to touch on?

Shannon Peck: In the last few weeks, I know you are aware, Haley, but I've actually found my birth father in the last few weeks through DNA online, which has been amazing and shocking and altogether just surreal going from not having a name to Happy-go-Lucky and yeah, it's been amazing.

So that's the next journey. I'm thinking, where does that take me next in my art journey? I had some plans on another exhibit, but now I'm thinking I might head off in another direction. So we'll see where that goes. But right now we're just in the start of reunion and it's been a pleasant surprise.

Haley Radke: I’m so happy for you and [00:43:00] I hope that some of the previous podcasts that have come out will be helpful to navigate reunion, which can be very tricky, but it's always pleasant to be in the honeymoon stage of reunion.

Oh, dear, I promised Shannon I wouldn't dig into that because I want to be sensitive to things that are actually happening right now, but I'm very excited for you.

Okay, so in this season, instead of doing recommended resources where I come up with something and my guest does. My resource is really that you're going to check out Shannon's work. Shannon’s website is specksurfacedesign.com. And, as I said earlier, you can go in and look through a whole bunch of photos. I think there's over 20 of the “Your Daughter is in Good Hands” exhibit. And I really recommend that you do. There's a lot of media coverage as [00:44:00] well that you’ve got, Shannon, so there's some articles, other interviews, and I think I even watched a video, maybe that was with Shaw.

Shannon Peck: Yes, it was.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so you can get a sense of the exhibit. I've spent a long time, more than I'll admit, looking at those things and being very moved. So I recommend that you go and check out Shannon's work. Okay, Shannon, what would you like to share with us?

Shannon Peck: A few recommended resources I have. I know. Some have been touched on in past episodes, so I'll just go over those quickly. One is Anne Fessler, both the Girls Who Went Away, as well as a documentary she did, which are both fabulous to watch. Nancy Verrier, of course. Primal Wound and Coming Home to Self were big for me, just coming out of the fog.

And one for Canadian adoptees, which a lot of people aren't really [00:45:00] aware of, is by Anne Petrie, and it's called Gone to an Aunt’s. And it, like Anne Fessler, is interviews, but with Canadian birth mothers and about Canadian birth homes and their experiences, so it's nice to get a kind of at-home perspective for adoptees on that.

Haley Radke: I can't believe I have not heard of this. How embarrassing. I am Canadian. Most people think I'm American, but I am Canadian. I definitely want to check that out.

Shannon Peck: No, it's a good one.

Haley Radke: Gone to an Aunt's. Yeah. So that's the story, they say, right?

Shannon Peck: Yes. That's exactly it.

Haley Radke: The Girls who Went Away and Gone to an Aunt’s. What a great title. Okay, and there was another documentary that you wanted to talk about.

Shannon Peck: The other one is called In Utero, and it is just out, I think in the last year. You can go online and purchase and download a copy in your area. There's been a few screenings, but I think it's hitting a lot of the film festivals, and it is [00:46:00] about scientific research about how a mother and child, how a birth mother or how a mother's emotions and decisions she makes while the child's in utero affects a child for life, which will help adoptees understand some of the trauma that they may have experienced based on what their birth mother felt when they had to give them up. And it's really fascinating. The research is just starting to come out really fast and furious. Gabor Maté was one of the researchers working on that. And it's really fascinating. I definitely recommend it for anyone to take a look at.

Haley Radke: That sounds so good. And you're so right, there's more and more research about attachment and the effects of not having the mother bonding even right after you're born. And like you said it's great for adoptees to watch this, but [00:47:00] other people are affected by these things as well. Childhood trauma.

On the flip side of that, there's a lot of different excellent books that aren't necessarily for adoptees, but that address childhood trauma that adoptees should really be researching if you're interested in healing.

Shannon Peck: There are so many great books out there. I just finished one by Bessel van der Kolk, The Body Keeps the Score, which is phenomenal. Just phenomenal.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I think I've had a couple of the therapists recommend that in the Healing Episodes. Yes, that's probably on the “must read” list now. It’s been so fabulous to talk to you, Shannon, where can we connect with you online?

Shannon Peck: So, like Haley said, my website is specksurfacedesign.com and you can also connect with me through Facebook. It's facebook.com/speckledfrogg with two g's.

Haley Radke: Okay, I have to ask.

Shannon Peck: Yeah, “speck” is [00:48:00] my first initial and last name, Shannon Peck. And when I made my email years and years ago, I was a frog person. I love frogs. And two G's just because I'm unique. There's always gotta be a story behind those things. And then I'm on Instagram as well. Speck_surface_design.

Haley Radke: Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much for chatting with me. I loved hearing your story and I loved hearing the process of creating your exhibit and your other work. It's just so moving.

Shannon Peck: Thank you so much for having me.

Haley Radke: Oh, isn't it exciting to hear that Shannon found her father? The most recent news that I can give you is that she is going to be meeting him in person very soon after this episode goes live. [00:49:00] So I'm just thrilled for her.

Also she has just compiled an exhibit catalog of photos from “Your Daughter is in Good Hands.” So I have put a link to where you can order that in the show notes on adopteeson.com, and I am like waiting by my mailbox. I just ordered it and I'm ready to see it. As I said while I was interviewing her, I have spent a lot of time looking through those pictures on her website. They are just so moving.

I really have found it powerful to pause and look at them and actually experience the feelings. I know, it's so yucky to feel the feelings, but we just need to so that's been really helpful for me. So if you are a visual person and sometimes it takes a little something to push you to feel something, I would recommend that for you.[00:50:00]

Okay, you guys, I'm loving this Healing Series, healing through creativity and art, and I hope you are too. So if you have some ideas for guests that you would like to hear from, send me a note on adopteeson.com/connect. And also there, if you are an adoptee and you have a book you would like to promote or some other work, you can record a very short 60-second audio message and send it to me and I may include it in the next episode of the podcast. So you could hear your promo right here. I love to hear your voices. Send me an audio clip.

I just want to say a gigantic thank you to my Patreon supporters. You lovely, lovely people are literally what is keeping me doing this show and [00:51:00] you're making it possible for me to come every week and do this work for you.

I am just flabbergasted every time I go into our secret Facebook Group. It's for adoptees only. And people are sharing some very personal things and the rallying of the community has been amazing. So I'm just so proud of you guys. Can I say that? I don't mean it condescending, like I genuinely am so proud of you for how you are taking such good care of each other and how this community is building. And it's really amazing. So I love you. And thank you.

If you want to stand with me and with the work that Adoptees On is doing, head over to adopteeson.com/partner and you can read all about the details on Patreon. Patreon is this website that takes monthly pledges to help support creators like me.

All the details are on that website, [00:52:00] adopteesone.com/partner.

One very last thing before I say goodbye for this week, would you just share the show with one person. And sometimes the barrier for people to listen to podcasts is they don't know how easy it is to just grab their phone and listen.

So if you're with a friend for coffee or maybe you're at your adoptee support group, pull someone aside and say, have you listened to this show and let me show you how. Cause sometimes that's the barrier. I would love it if you would share the show with just one, one friend this week. Thank you for listening.

Let's talk again next Friday.