69 [Healing Series] Internal Family Systems

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/69

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported.

You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we are going to learn about a type of therapy called the Internal Family Systems Model. I know it's a mouthful, but it's so helpful for adoptees, so let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Marta [formerly Drachenberg]. Welcome, Marta. So, Marta is a fellow adoptee. She's also a licensed mental health counselor who is trained in Internal Family Systems, a model she believes to be especially powerful in helping adoptees learn to love and welcome all their internal parts.

So today you are here to teach us what Internal Family Systems means. But first I'm going to ask you if you would just briefly share with us a little bit of your story.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Sure. I was adopted at two weeks old from Bogota, Columbia. I grew up in Connecticut, middle white class suburbia. I reunited with my birth mom just over a year ago through a private investigator.

So it's been a big year and I don’t know what else to say about that. Of course, a long story, I could say a lot more, but those feel relevant.

Haley Radke: Okay, thank you. And so, do you want to just tell us your decade of age? I'm just curious because you said it's just been a year ago.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes, I'm 31.

Haley Radke: Okay. Wow. How long did it take for the private investigator to find her?

Marta Isabella Sierra: So I did all the DNA testing first, which is people's general first line of defense these days. It's a long shot, though, for internationally adopted people. The DNA testing and everything came back reaping nothing. So I hired a private investigator on a Friday afternoon and he found her Sunday morning.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay. That is quite the story and maybe we'll hear more of it someday, but I like to give people just an orientation of how you're coming to this work with adoptees. And I know you work with other groups as well.

But why don't you start out and just explain to us, I’ve never even heard of this Internal Family Systems. What is that?

Marta Isabella Sierra: So Internal Family Systems was created by Dick Schwartz. He discovered it really organically. The basic concepts are that there are multiplicities inside of us and actually anciently, historically, this was always our way of thinking about ourselves. We lost our way somewhere along the way and have become kind of mono-minded. Meaning that we think all of our actions and thoughts and emotions and everything that we do is a reflection of who we are in this really singular way.

So we have to become really black and white and decide all of these things, instead of honoring that we're all walking contradictions and we have so many different parts of ourselves that feel so many contradictory things and irrational things, and that all of that is really human and really welcome.

And so we talk a lot about parts. Of course, parts of self may be an easier way to think about it. That's a question I get pretty early on from clients. What is a part? And it's varied, people's experience of their parts. It can be an emotion, it could be a feeling, it can be a sensory feeling, a thought stream.

Some people have really strong visuals of their parts. Some people really do experience them mostly in the body. But we have a multitude of parts. That's also a question I get early on. How many parts do I have? When people are starting to get to know their parts. And it's endless. And all I can say is that I've been doing this work for about six years now and I just met a new part in my therapy session this week.

So we have a multitude of parts and that's okay.

Haley Radke: I've heard some therapists, even on this Healing Series before, talk about, oh, maybe you're going to talk to your younger self or your childhood self. Is that an expression of something you're talking about?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. That is an expression and a lot of people have talked about that. It's really just opening that up, that's the entire lens, that's the entire language that we have all these parts.

Yes, certainly we have younger parts. And a lot of our parts are certainly created in childhood, but it can be even more open than that. Like, I have a part of me that gets angry at this. I have a part of me that judges this. I have a part of me that feels afraid when…. You could just fill that in over and over in so many different ways.

And a big mantra in the IFS world is “All parts are welcome.” That’s the work. How do we welcome all of our parts in a world where our parts are very often not being welcomed externally? How do we do that work internally to welcome our parts?

The cultural view, especially in America, is that we can shame our parts into being different, right? Whatever change we're talking about. But an easy one to go to is of course the diet industry. If we have a part that wants to eat, then we should try to control, shame, hate, disconnect from that part of ourselves, instead of what if that part of us needs the most love, the most compassion, the most TLC out of all of the parts.

And so how do we turn towards the parts of us that we hate or feel ashamed about or struggle with and open our hearts to them.

Haley Radke: Before you go too far down that, I just want one more clarification question for you. What is the difference between saying we have different parts versus we have different personalities? We don't call it this anymore, multiple personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder. Can you make a distinction of that for us as well?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Sure. That is also an early concern sometimes from clients. What does this mean that I have all these parts? Does it mean that I have? Yes, exactly.

Clinicians say DID but most people still say multiple personality disorder. DID is really very extreme, it's when someone's system has had such an extreme reaction or been through such an extreme trauma that their parts have become essentially independent. So that's the extreme. But we all have parts.

Yes. And we all have, if you want to say it, multiple personalities. That's fine too. We all have multiplicities. And there is a stigma about that, and that's part of how we've gotten away from welcoming all our parts is that we have created this stigma about having multiplicities.

Haley Radke: But the difference is that in this level that would be considered disordered they're independent.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Correct. They're acting on their own, essentially, versus being in connection with them. But that's its own spectrum of being present with your parts, and that actually moves me perfectly into the next piece, which is the other really hugely different thing about IFS from other models of therapy is that we believe that everyone has a healing force inside of them.

IFS calls that self-energy. I don't always use that term with clients. I usually let clients define that on their own. My personal definition is pure non-judgmental love. But I have clients that define it as divine light. I have clients that define it as authentic self. Really, that we all have this innate ability to do our own healing.

And some people may have lived their whole lives never learning how to access that energy. And so it's a tool to access it. So we have the eight C’s in IFS of self-energy which are Calm, Creativity, Compassion, Curiosity, Courage, Clarity, Connectedness, and Confidence. But really, I always go back to that non-judgmental love piece, first and foremost.

And so the idea, the goal of IFS therapy is to get the parts of yourself in touch with that self-energy, in connection with it. How do we, again, I would say in my layman's terms, how do we open our hearts to the parts of us that are struggling, that are stuck in time, that are in pain, and help them do some healing?

And that we are most aptly equipped to do that ourselves. So the role of the therapist becomes helping you build relationship with your parts, helping you open your heart to the parts of yourself that you're struggling with the most. I'm not doing the work, I'm just helping you figure out how to open your heart and figure out how to help you when you get stuck and when there are other things in the way, essentially, between you and your parts.

Haley Radke: So you said that you really think this is powerful in helping adoptees, and why specifically would it be so great for working with adoptees?

Marta Isabella Sierra: So IFS is an experiential therapy, and what that means is that it's not a talking therapy. Most models of therapy would go under the genre of talk therapy but IFS is an experiential therapy.

And so one thing that means is that it's difficult for me to describe and give an example of, but I'm going to try. So I typically use the analogy of a guided meditation. That's not quite what it is. It's just my best analogy. 90% of my clients work with their eyes closed. That's not mandatory. But it's essentially an attunement process that I lead you through.

Clients more familiar with IFS need less guidance, right? The more familiar they are with their own system, with how they work and how this work shows up for them, which is different again for every person. I can't say that enough, that everyone experiences their parts differently.

But essentially through that work, I guide people through how to do that healing, and it involves a lot of internal ritual, which we call unburdening. Unburdening the pain and the beliefs and the wounds that have been being carried around by these parts that they're really overworked and trapped and they're doing their best. They need our help.

Haley Radke: And something we talk about a lot with adoptees is adoption as an infant or a very young child is preverbal trauma. This would be, because it's not talk therapy, this sounds like it would be powerful in that respect.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Exactly. Typically how I run my sessions is about 10 minutes of talking and then going and doing the internal work, and then I typically bring people out about 10 minutes from the end of the hour so we can do a bit more verbal processing.

But the trigger or the trailhead or whatever someone's coming in with might be like, I got in a fight with my husband this week and this is what I felt. And just slow that down. Okay, where did you notice that in your body? I might ask something like that. And then we go into that process and it would shock you how much that kind of surface content leads us right to where we need to go, which is typically parts that need our help and those can be preverbal parts.

So I started with an IFS therapist in 2012 and that work was very powerful and I still viscerally remember everything about this session where I met my infant part who was in a complete state of terror, crying, wouldn't even look at me for a little while, but eventually I got her to look at me and I held her in my arms and sobbed. And it was so powerful to comfort her myself. And yes, I had a witness in the room, but I don't know how much time went by. It's this other world sometimes when you're doing this work and it feels timeless.

It felt like I was with her for 10 hours, but of course it happened within the context of the therapy hour. But I got to say to her in that first session, and I say to her all the time, “I'm not going anywhere.” “I will not leave you.” And our traumatized parts as adoptees need to hear that more than anything in the world, and other people can offer it to us, but it probably isn't true.

People die. People leave. Things change. People move. People have other people in their lives. We're never fully sure and we can't ever fully be sure that other people won't leave. But we get to support our parts in this way, and this is so specific to adoption trauma. I get to say to my little parts, “I'm not going anywhere” and I get to mean it.

And I get to know that I will always show up for them and I get to give them that safety that they're not going to get from anybody else.

Haley Radke: That's pretty amazing. I have chills. Goosebumps. Wow. What a moment. So you have that moment comforting yourself as an infant. That powerful thing, is that what led you to decide to become a specialist in IFS, an IFS therapist?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. I signed up for Level 1 training, really to keep doing my own work because it was so powerful and it was changing my life so quickly. But the first day of my Level 1, I knew in my bones, in my gut, this isn't just about my work, this is about my future, this is everything.

The lens of IFS feels so aligned with how I already saw the world. It felt also very aligned with my graduate school training which was in expressive therapies and dance movement therapy. It felt really aligned with the somatic work that I had already been grounded in and it just already felt like my language.

Some people that are doing trainings have been working for years in the field and they have a lot of unlearning to do, and I started my training right out of graduate school and really dove right into this world. And I believe it's very powerful.

Haley Radke: So you also work with people who have disordered eating. That was your primary focus for a while, is that right?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Correct.

Haley Radke: And what are some of the things that you've worked with that population for a while, and what are some of those things that translate into the adoptee world? Is there anything? Is that a fair comparison?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I don't know about comparison. I will say that I work with eating disorders because I had an eating disorder.

I prefer the term active recovery, so I would say I'm in active recovery. And I believe now firmly that was a tertiary expression of my adoption trauma. I think that my adoption trauma set me up to develop an eating disorder. Like so many of us struggle with eating disorders, addictions, suicidality, all the things that you've already talked about in a multitude on your show.

And so just as a result of that, I've always had some percentage of my caseload that is adoptees. And so I've been going deeper and deeper into that work. But I do believe that our perfectionism, our really deep craving for worthiness can sometimes, of course, express itself in an eating disorder and our need for control.

And if eating disorders are about anything, they're certainly about control, being in control or being out of control. But there's a big theme there about control that I think makes sense, that an adopted person might be more susceptible to an eating disorder.

Haley Radke: And you mentioned that after your experience comforting your infant self that you felt some big changes right away. I think that's the wording that you used. Can you just talk a little bit about that? What changed for you?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Just my way of relating to myself. I just listened to the Healing Series episode earlier today, the most recent one. And I loved the way that I think it was Pam was talking about how do we speak to ourselves?

How do we speak to ourselves with kindness? And that's very aligned with IFS, with opening our hearts to these parts of ourselves. Everybody has critical parts, shaming parts that come in in moments of vulnerability and say that we're doing it wrong, that we should have reacted differently. And how do we say, Oh, hi?

How are we welcoming to those parts? Instead of, Oh, you're here again. Go away, or, I don't need this right now. Or, again, all of that kind of kicking our own butts, like shaming ourselves into change-energy. How do we shift towards, Oh, hi. Even just a hello. If you can't be kind to your parts that are showing up, just saying hi. There's some Buddhist themes in there, too, of just welcoming what is, but that shifts very quickly. That’s the first shift I invite clients to make is just to notice and say hello to their parts.

Oh, that's a part of me. There's a part of me that shows up in this situation. There's a part of me. Oh, that's a part. Once you start noticing, it's like we stay in training. It's like popcorn and you start noticing your parts, other people's parts. It just becomes your lens of how you see things.

And the first step is just saying, hello. Hi. Okay. You're a part of me. I'm okay with that. You're a part of me, or I'm trying to be okay with that you're a part of me.

And the other piece of “all parts are welcome” is that all of our parts have positive intention for us, even if we can't see it. Even parts that do really destructive, dangerous things, there is a positive intention in there.

It's trusting that there is some positive intention that even the shamers and the criticizers up through self-harm and suicidal parts have positive intention for us. And so when we say, shut up, I don't like you, go away. I don't wanna think this way right now. When we push them aside, we don't get to learn why are you here? Why are you doing this? What are you afraid would happen if you didn't do this right now? And we don't get to the healing.

Haley Radke: So, in order to work in this way, do you need to go see an IFS therapist? It sounds like there's a lot of guiding even in that first 10 minutes of the appointment, you said, to find where you're going in that hour.

And it also sounded to me like that's the kind of work that you wouldn't want to do on your own. I'm picturing you holding yourself as an infant. That is an incredibly vulnerable position. And you're opening up a traumatic wound, and so you don't want to do that stuff by yourself. Am I correct in saying that?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Absolutely correct. And the longer you do it, the more you can do on your own. And the goal is that the hour that you spend, or two hours a week even, in therapy becomes just this touchstone, and that you're really learning, again, how to build this relationship with your parts on your own and support them on your own and move through triggers and all of those things.

But yes, absolutely I think being with someone who has been trained in this is crucial because what I haven't talked about is our protective system, because I could spend so long talking about that, but it links to what I was just saying about honoring that our parts have positive intention for us.

So most of our parts are trying to protect us in some way or another. There's kind of two classifications of those. I won't go into it here, but essentially one is proactive and one is reactive. Our protectors will jump in, especially in the internal work. So if I'm moving towards a wound with a client, I trust that their protectors will show up. Their protectors will show up, and the work will only go as safe as the system says.

I don't say how deep we go or how fast, the client's parts say how deep we go, how fast, and because of that I have never had a client come back and feel overexposed, even through some very deep trauma work because I'm not saying if it's safe or not. The client's system is saying if it's safe or not.

Haley Radke: So are there any exercises that are safe to think about this, practice on our own in some way?

I guess I gave that example earlier of saying some kind things to your younger self if you're in a moment of fear or triggering or something. Is there anything like that or are we specifically saying this all needs to start in an IFS therapist’s office?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Again, I think the starting point is what I was talking about, which is just saying hello. Just noticing your parts is a huge, huge, huge piece of work that can be months long of starting to notice your parts and just say hello.

If you can say something kinder or something more loving, that's great but it's not necessary. It's enough to say hello. I think everyone has an experience of being in a room or talking to someone and feeling invisible. And how painful that is.

Some of our parts that have been neglected for years, for maybe our entire lives, the power of just saying hello to them, of acknowledging that they exist and they are a part of us, and that we care a little bit, even just we care that they exist can be hugely powerful. And that's something that everybody can do starting whenever they would like. Because the goal again is that we are the primary caretaker of our parts and that's the goal to move towards.

And that the therapist, again, is just a facilitator in that. What can be dangerous for adoptees, I think, in a traditional therapeutic relationship is that there's often a reparenting or a mimicking, right? I will be this love and compassionate mother maybe that you didn't experience, and that can feel really healing.

But that's one hour a week, and then all of the other hours of the week if I become your safe base, then you're dysregulated the whole rest of the time. That's a lot of hours of the week to be dysregulated and have this one hour of comfort a week. So yes, it's still a therapeutic relationship and of course we still develop attachment and bonds with our clients that are important, but I'm only being that self-energy in the room if the client has access to none of it at all.

Ideally, I'm in a witness role, mostly witnessing and guiding and keeping my own heart wide open, attuned to what's happening for the client.

Haley Radke: Okay. That sounds really interesting. I'm curious, how does somebody find an IFS therapist?

Marta Isabella Sierra: The website will be in the show notes. There's an IFS website and you can look for an IFS therapist on there.

Not all of us are on there. I'm actually not even on there because I've moved around a lot in the past few years and have been in and out of private practice. I have a small practice right now. So even to reach out to the ones that you find on there, they may know other IFS therapists in their area that they can refer you to.

It's a difficult choice. I know you talk on the show a lot about finding an adoption competent therapist. I could not agree more. And I, myself, am in this difficult position often. Am I going to find somebody who specializes in adoption or is it more important to me to have an IFS person? Because the IFS therapist specialized in adoption is definitely an emerging subgroup of us. I am not the only one.

Haley Radke: Marta, I was just gonna say, are you the only one?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one. And it's important to me to continue to educate my community of IFS therapists so that they're more attuned. But that piece that I was saying about the work goes only as deep and as fast as the system wants.

Any skilled IFS therapist is attuned to that, and I think there's this piece where, again, it's really about your parts and you and you validating your parts’ experience. So yes, do we still need safety and compassion and empathy from a provider? Of course, but I'm the one saying to my parts, I know that was really hard or I know that was traumatic or I know that left a deep impact on you.

I trust any skilled IFS therapist to work with adoption even without specific training, though, of course, that's ideal.

Haley Radke: I was going to say, because so much of it is yourself doing your own kind of work with you present as a therapist, it's like they're learning from you as well, right?

So it's not like traditional therapy where they're not supposed to give you advice but, you know, you're having a conversation and they may steer you in a different direction if they don't realize that adoption is a trauma.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. And we emphasize so strongly in training space, so strongly, that the most important thing when providers are learning this model is to be in their own IFS therapy, to be doing their own work.

We learn it by doing our own work. Half of training, if not more, is them doing their own work in a safe space and learning this really by doing it. And so part of the training, too, is us being in touch with our parts, noticing them.

I will speak for parts in session, but it's very clear. I will say a part of me just felt this. I don't know if that's mine or that's yours or, does that resonate? It might be my part just reacting. So we use modeling in that way. We use transparency in that way, even up through a rift or something that can go awry.

I've had repairs with past IFS therapists that have been extremely powerful. When I come back the next week and say, this didn't feel good to me, and the therapist says, I'm so sorry, I definitely had a part come in that wanted to rescue you or wanted to caretake you, or whatever the thing was, and then we get to do this repair around it, which also shows the power of this in relationships, and there's so much safety in that.

And I'll give you another example of what you were just saying, which is I recently started with a new IFS therapist. A big fear that I have is that my therapist will align with my adoptive parents. I think that's a fear that a lot of us carry when starting with someone new.

Is it going to be safe for me to unpack these really complicated feelings that I have about my adoptive parents? And he got it within the first session. I was describing this sensation in my body and he reflected back to me: It sounds like she's really dangerous to you. And just this wave of calm went over my whole body.

Okay, I don't have to worry. He doesn't have any parts that are aligning with them. I'm safe here and I can say the really difficult stuff and I can be honest about what's happening inside of me.

Haley Radke: I could tell there could be this pressure to pretend otherwise. And you can't do the work if you're pretending. Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. Right. Exactly.

Haley Radke: Okay. Wow. Thanks Marta. That was really in depth and I think I got a really good picture of what IFS is and can do. Is there anything that we didn't touch on that you really feel is important to tell adoptees in particular?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I'm gonna think about that for one moment.

I think that you can do it. That's from a cheerleader part of me. You can do this, you can do this work. You can reparent yourself in a way that you weren't parented and you are capable of doing your own healing.

You have this force inside of you that's capable of facilitating the healing. You may need a little help learning how to do that, but you are capable and all of your parts are positively intentioned and beautiful and welcome.

Haley Radke: Oh, that gave me a nice feeling. Thank you, thank you. I think that was really helpful. I think that people who this kind of speaks to, I'm sure there's gonna be a few that this really speaks to, can go check out the website. As you said, it's going to be in the show notes to find an IFS therapist, but how can they connect with you?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Those links will be there as well. My personal email as well as my professional website. And I'm available for therapeutic work and consultation. Also, if there's any therapists that don't specialize, I do that work a little bit, as well, educating other therapists. I'm available for that. And the other thing I would just say about looking for an IFS therapist, there's a bookstore on there.

And if you want to start your reading about IFS, if you're curious about this, my strongest recommendation is to start with You Are The One You've Been Waiting For by Richard Schwartz, the creator of IFS. It's technically about couples work, but it was my first IFS book and it's what I start all my clients on because I think it's a really great mix of layman's and clinical terms and examples. I just think it's a really nice starter roadmap and whether you're in or out of relationship, I think it's really useful.

Haley Radke: Okay. That sounds like a great resource to check out. And just even if you're wanting to dip your toe in and you're not quite sure if this might be right for you.

Awesome. Thank you. Thanks so much Marta. It was a pleasure chatting with you. Thanks for teaching us about Internal Family Systems.

I wanted to let you know what's happening for the next few episodes of Adoptees On. It's almost like a little mini-series. So today Marta talked to us about IFS therapy.

Next week I have an adoptee coming on who is married to an adoptee. So we're talking about their relationship and the special connection here is that she already does IFS therapy and her husband does as well.

So we talk a little bit about how that has impacted their relationship and the things that they've learned through IFS. That's a really cool connection.

And then after that, I've invited Marta back and we talk about romantic relationships through the lens of IFS. But also just romantic relationships as adoptees. The things that we struggle with and things that we can work on with our partners.

So that's what's coming up in the next couple weeks for the podcast. And I also just wanted to let you know that I have a monthly newsletter that you can sign up for to stay connected with me and for news about the show. Adopteeson.com/newsletter has the details for that.

And the very last thing for today. Would you consider partnering with me financially to help cover the production costs of the show? It is such an honor to be able to do this work for you, and I'm so thankful for all of you who are already partnered with me and supporting the show monthly or with one-time gifts.

You are making it possible for me to carry on this work with you. So if that is something that you have been thinking about, oh yeah, I should sign up for Haley's Patreon. I'd love to join the Secret Facebook group, or I want access to the extra unedited versions of the show.

If that's something that you've been on the fence for, I'd invite you to consider signing up today. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details for monthly support. And if you're able to give a one-time gift, adopteeson.com, right in the homepage, has a little spot for one-time donation. Both of those things help sustain the show, and I'm so grateful for your support.

Thank you so much, and thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

68 Amy and Fleurette - This Is Our Normal

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/68

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported.

You're listening to Adoptees On. The podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is season four, episode eight. Amy and Fleurette. I'm your host, Haley Radke. It's my honor to bring you today's guests, Fleurette and Amy, a mother and daughter duo. We talk about the unusual circumstances surrounding Amy's adoption, the disappointment they both felt after their first official in-person meeting, how bringing grandkids into the equation shifted their relationship and how many years it took them before they felt their reunion relationship was quote unquote normal. Spoiler alert, it was a long time. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, Adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.[00:01:00]

Well, I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On two guests today, Amy and Fleurette. Welcome ladies.

Amy: Thank you.

Fleurette: Thank you.

Haley Radke: I have had the pleasure of meeting Amy in person and I've spoken to you Fleurette before, but I'd love to introduce you to my listeners, but why don't we start out, Amy, would you share your story with us?

Amy: I was adopted in, um, January of 1980 in Saskatoon, in Saskatchewan. I was adopted by a family from a small farming town, and I was the oldest, and then they later adopted my sister, who's three years younger. I grew up on a farm and, um, just grew up in like, just a small town, farm life. Um, had lots of cousins, lots of aunts and uncles, went to a small school. I always knew I was adopted. As long as I can [00:02:00] remember. I don't actually really remember how my parents told me. I just always just knew and I, I don't know if I knew what that was, even for the longest time until I was older, but I always knew that I was adopted and yeah, so just really grew up in a, in a typical family.

When I was 16, my younger sister, she started asking my parents about her birth family and if just inquiring and being curious about her, who her mom might be. Um, and just asked a lot of questions. And at that point, I don't think I had really, I had never really asked much about my adoption or had really inquired about it. I, I think I probably thought about it, but just not, not a ton. And so when my sister started asking questions, my mom said, you know, yeah, you actually, we did get some non-identifying information for the both of you when you were adopted, and we [00:03:00] have it in the safety deposit box and you know, we're happy to share that information with you if you want it. So when my dad went into town the next time he went to the credit union and they got the non-identifying information, brought it home that evening.

And so my sister was adopted three years after I was, so we were, it was both closed adoptions. Her information had a lot more detail than mine did. Um, just I think because she was adopted three years later and maybe there was more information to be had then. Anyway, all I said was, wow, she has a lot more information than I do. And I don't know, I guess my mom thought that that was her entry to say, well, actually we could tell you more about your mom if you wanted to know and I didn't really know what that meant. And so I said, well, what do you mean? And she said, well, we, we could tell you who your mom is and so I was like, okay, well, I was not [00:04:00] expecting that to come from this conversation. I just thought maybe there was some more information about like, you know, demographic type stuff, not who she actually was.

Haley Radke: Right.

Amy: I just remember thinking like, and saying like, well, I don't, what do you mean like, you know who she is? And so my mom and dad proceeded to tell me that when I was adopted, it was a closed adoption through the government. Um, when they signed the papers for me, they received papers. Obviously not, they were not supposed to receive the papers, but it had my name on there with my last name as well as my mom's name on the paper.

Haley Radke: So you're identifying information was on there and they were given that by mistake.

Amy: Yes, they were. And so they'd already waited quite a long time to adopt a, a baby. Like I think it was about five years by that time. And so my mom said they saw the name [00:05:00] and they didn't say anything because they didn't want me to be not adopted to them, you know?

So my birth mom happened to be my adopted dad's first cousin. Closed adoptions back then, I don't really, I can't really speak to what they are now, but mom, my mom said that they did very thorough background checks on my parents. So family trees, you know, friends, because they did not want for this reason to have a child adopted to a family member.

And so obviously someone dropped the ball. I don't know who it was, but somebody and somebody dropped the ball and, um, anyways, yeah, so my parents knew who my mom was and I, like, my dad is quite a bit older than Fleurette, so, you know, they weren't super close. They weren't from the same town, but they're, they obviously knew each other and, you know, families knew each other, so.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm.

Amy: Yeah. So my parents never said [00:06:00] anything, and then they decided when I was 16 that I think it was just like a weight off my mom's chest to tell me who she was. So that was really, like, I remember feeling extremely kind of like the wind had been, you know, knocked out of me. Like, it was just kind of like weird, you know, because it was something that I had never really thought about a ton or, and then all of a sudden everything was just kind of like piled on my plate.

So after that, I didn't, I didn't really speak about it again for a year. So the following year when I was 17, uh, there was a family reunion that was happening in the town that Fleurette is from, and the rest of my extended family. And so my parents made me go to this reunion and I didn't really want to go. So I, I just couldn't quite voice why I didn't want to go, because I just, I didn't feel really comfortable [00:07:00] talking about it at that point. It was still something really difficult for me to talk about. And so I finally was able to voice to my mom, like the day before we went that, you know, I really, I really don't want to go to this reunion. And she asked me, you know, why don't you want to go? And I said, well, you know, like, what if she's there? Like, what if she's there? And I like, how, what am I supposed to do if she's there? And so my mom just said, you know, like, I'm so sorry. You know, we, we just really have always known that, who you were and that you were her daughter. And so we didn't even, you know, put it together that this, we would be worried about it, you know, we've just kind of always lived with it. So, um, she said, you know, if we go and it's too difficult and, you know, we can go home early or whatever.

So yeah, we went to this family reunion and um, I think we were there for like a total of 20 minutes. We pulled up and I was getting out of the vehicle and I was getting my shoes, I think out of the vehicle and this other vehicle pulled up not far from us, and this woman and this man got [00:08:00] out of the vehicle and I just innocently asked my mom like, oh, like who's that? Just because, you know, of course aside from your own immediate family, you don't really know anybody at a family reunion. And uh, my mom said, well, actually that's your mom.

And so, yeah, I saw her for the first time and yeah, it was just very, uh, weird, obviously. For the rest of the weekend I had to go through the whole weekend just pretending like I didn't know who she was and like sitting across from her eating or whatever it might be, like all weekend. I saw her all weekend and um, yeah, I didn't, I couldn't say, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't go over to her obviously I never would have anyways, but it was just obviously very traumatizing and I don't think I realized the level of trauma till much later, but yeah.

So then shortly after that reunion when I went [00:09:00] home, it was like, um, I'm sure people can relate that are adopted, but you know, for a long time I just, I knew I had a birth mom and I knew I had, you know, family out there, but it's almost like they don't really exist because it's hard to imagine. And then when you actually see, you know, because I saw her, and not only did I see her, but I saw, you know, my grandma and, um, my aunts and uncles and my cousins who were younger than me and it was just like, I couldn't put that away anywhere, you know? So when we got home, I said to my mom, you know, I just feel like I need to do something about this, and I'm not really sure what, but I feel like I need to at least reach out or something. I, I didn't actually really know to start, because I was only 18 at the time. And so my mom said, you know, I can, why don't I phone your grandma who is Fleurette’s mom? And she said, I am almost positive in my heart that she also knows deep down who you are. And so if I phone [00:10:00] her first, and, you know, tell her she's probably not going to be super surprised, and then maybe she can help navigate how we can, you know, reach out to Fleurette.

Haley Radke: Wow.

Amy: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. So let's pause there. So Fleurette is your birth mother. Fleurette, why don't you tell us your story?

Fleurette: My story. Oh, yikes. Well, I got pregnant at 17 years old. I had a little girl that I had contemplated what, what I should do, but, um, chose to give her up for adoption. I was 17 and hmm, my life was a party, so I really felt at that time that I couldn't give her what she deserved.

So I, I chose to give her up for [00:11:00] adoption. And I, I can't say I like, thought about it every day, but I thought about it often and definitely thought about it every January on Amy's birthday. I always wondered, hmm, she looked like me or not, or, um, what she was doing. And as she got older, I'm not gonna lie, I, I did have some concerns that there would be a, a child show up on my doorstep and tell me that I owed them, which I probably did, but yeah, I had some concerns of how it would play out if it ever happened.

Haley Radke: I'm just curious, did your family know that you, you placed Amy for adoption? Like did your parents know and everything?

Fleurette: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Yeah,

Fleurette: Everybody, so, and, and I guess going [00:12:00] back to that, back in that day, it was for a 17-year-old girl to get pregnant was shameful to the family and my, my mother since a number of times has apologized for that. And the more and more she knows Amy, which she's known Amy now for 20 years, she, um, she couldn't even imagine her life without Amy. Like she can't even imagine that she could ever have felt that way. But back in the day, that's what society kind of, they made you feel that way, right? They…

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Fleurette: They made you feel like it was wrong. So, um, I did, I, I gave Amy up for adoption and one, December Boxing Day, my mom and I were doing dishes and she says, I, I have [00:13:00] something to, to show you. And I said, oh, okay. That's great. Going back I, after Amy was born, anytime I moved or changed something, I would update my records with social services so that I thought if she ever want, Amy ever want to get ahold of me, it would be easier for her if everything was always updated.

My dad had just died of cancer just before that, not that long before that. And so that's what I thought she was gonna tell me that she had cancer. So we went into the bedroom and she said, well, I got a phone call and I got a letter a couple weeks ago and I'm thinking, hmm, I didn't update your records in social services.

So she just said, yeah. She says, well, it turns out your cousin and his wife. And I said, yeah. And [00:14:00] it says, it turns out their oldest daughter is yours. So that was very, hmm, that was very, like, it's shocking, right? It's kind of surreal because you've thought about it for 18 years and then all of a sudden it's right there. So it didn't really seem like it was real, but as soon as they told me who Amy was, I went back to the family reunion and I knew right away who she was because there were times at the family reunion where Amy and her cousins would be sitting with the adults, and you know how it is when you tell a story and someone, you're telling someone a story and you finish a story and they, they just keep looking at you and you want to say, okay, I'm, I'm done with my [00:15:00] story. So I remember going back to the family reunion that I would look over and this girl was just staring at me. And so, yeah, I, I knew right away who she was. They didn't have to tell me to remind me what she looked like or anything. I knew, I knew right away who she was.

Haley Radke: So, Fleurette, did your mom, did she know that Amy had been placed there, like did she have suspicions? Because I mean, the timing, like my daughter just had a baby and then my cousin adopted.

Fleurette: Yes.

Haley Radke: The timing is kind of uncanny.

Fleurette: Exactly. So my dad came from a family of 12, so Amy's, um, adopted grandmother and my father were brother and sister. My mom, my oldest sister, and a number of my aunts had all suspected from, [00:16:00] from way back, almost from day one, and I'm not sure how it is now, but back then we had to write a little bit about ourself. And I know Amy will say I wrote a very little bit about myself and they adopted parents, wrote about them. So the whole situation with Amy's adopted dad and his brothers and how they, you know, kind of ranched and it just was too, too much the same and like too much the same as the situation. So my mom and my older sister and, um, a number of my aunts all suspected that Amy was, but back then you, you couldn't approach and you couldn't ask questions and no one would, would approach [00:17:00] me for sure because I had no clue. And I had seen Amy, uh, I think three times by the time she was 16. I had seen her when she was two and there was another time, and then when she was 16, but I had no clue then.

Haley Radke: You said that you sort of feared this child showing up at your door sometimes, and then yet you kept all your information up to date with social services.

Fleurette: Yeah. Well, I did because it, even though I had a fear of it, it was still what I wanted.

Haley Radke: So your mom sits you down, tells you that Amy is your daughter. How does, and you mentioned that you've been a reunion for, you know, like 20 years, but how do you first connect?

Fleurette: Well, uh, Amy had written a letter to my mom. So mom gave me the letter. So I think it was your birthday, wasn't it Amy, January?

Amy: Yeah.

Fleurette: I called you. [00:18:00] I called with very much my husband, like, okay, come on. I said, yeah, I know I want to, but I was like, just a fear, right? So I thought, okay, well I'm the adult here, so yeah, I need to step it up a notch. So I did call and we chatted and then I think we talked another one or two times, Amy.

Amy: Yeah.

Fleurette: And then we decided that we would meet. And we did meet at my mom's. I was living in Winnipeg at the time, so Winnipeg really wasn't bringing her to Winnipeg. And mom was kind of common ground. Amy knew mom, not real well, but knew her. And so we decided to meet at my mom's place. She's small town, Saskatchewan. And yeah, [00:19:00] we met there one weekend. Um, my sister, one of my sisters and my mom and I picked Amy up at the bus. I flew into Saskatoon and then we picked her up at the bus and we went to my mom's. It was a very, very difficult weekend for me. I thought like Amy was amazing. That part was not difficult at all and she was nothing that I had a fear that, that I maybe created. So that was wonderful. My family was right away, it wasn't half a day and there was no, to them, there was no, not Amy in our family before. So to my family, it was immediate. For me it was, it was a very, very exhausting weekend. It was very heady. I did go home and, um, when I flew home after the weekend, [00:20:00] Dale picked me up at the airport and he was all excited to hear about it. So how was it like, it must been awesome. And I said it was, it was a terrible weekend. And he said, what? He says, wasn't she, she, she wasn't good? And I said, no, she was awesome. She was amazing. I said, but all of these things that you meet somebody like in the movies and you have instant connection and love and that's not, I said, that's not how it works. I said, I met an adult that yes, I have a con, I feel a connection, but I met an adult person that, and then feeling guilt that I didn't have all this amazing, like love for this person. I care, I knew I cared about this person, but [00:21:00] then feeling guilty and feeling shame and that I didn't, and yeah, it was very, very, a very confusing, difficult weekend for me.

I was very happy it happened. Don't get me wrong, but it was very, yeah, all the things that I expected of myself, I, I didn't have all those things. So I felt shame and bad and yeah, I don't know, guilt and wanting to feel something I didn't feel yet. And, and I say yet, because that was a long time ago and all those things that I wanted to feel then, I feel much more now, that and way more. But yeah, it's, it was not, it was a very difficult weekend for me.

Haley Radke: Amy, what was your experience of that weekend?

Amy: Yeah, it was also difficult for me.

Fleurette: [00:22:00] Mm-hmm.

Amy: It was a hard weekend. I mean, it was, it was so good in, so, in so many other ways. So, I mean, obviously super nervous. Like I took a bus by myself to, um, Saskatoon and, uh, yeah, Brett and my grandma were there to meet me and, um, yeah, it's just like she just said, it's not like you see. Or that I saw, you know, on when you, reuniting with someone and it wasn't like full of that. I mean, again, yeah, you're just like happy to see this person and it's like you're so nervous to, and you finally meet and, and whatever. But yeah, it's the same thing. It's like, I, this is a stranger, you know, to me, and it's confusing because you're like, you know, in your head like, this is your mom, but still a stranger, you know?

But I mean, like she was just mentioning before with, with my grandma, like my grandma was there and like there was no beat skipped. It was just kind of like I got off the bus and it was like full on, like hug and just so happy and [00:23:00] oh, that was really good. Yeah. So we went there for the weekend and same thing, like all my aunts and uncles came and all the kids, um, I call them kids, they're not kids anymore, but at the time they were little. So I'm the oldest cousin and so there was just all these littles and so I got to meet them and that was just so wonderful. But yeah, just so overwhelming. And I was 18 too, like, I mean, you know, when you're 18 and you think you know everything, you think you're such an adult and, you know, I wasn't, like, I was just a kid.

So yeah, that was, it was hard for me too because I, I just didn't really know how to navigate it and I, I felt the same. Like, I just, and then I thought she didn't like me, like when, um, when, when the weekend was over. because I'm like, I just feel like, I don't know, like, did she like me? Didn't she like me? Because I mean, now I recognize it was hard for her too, obviously. But at the time I was just, I felt completely overwhelmed and I [00:24:00] left and I felt so sad when I left. And I just, you know, it was just all these expectations that weren't met and I, and I don't know. I guess the, the expectations I had of myself and how it would go, and it just, it didn't happen that way.

Haley Radke: It's so interesting to me because I thought that maybe this would go a little smoother for you guys because, you know, Amy you are adopted basically into the extended family and so…

Amy: Yeah.

Haley Radke: You know, you talk about these similar upbringings like the farm and ranch and all this rural, you know, Saskatchewan kind of stuff and, and yet still like it's not quite, yeah. Wow. Well thanks for sharing that ladies, because I think it's so good for people to know like reunion is not like a TV show.

Fleurette: No.

Amy: Gosh no.

Haley Radke: It's so not. No. So here we are 20 years in. You guys are really good friends, you have a great relationship, but I'm sure [00:25:00] there's been ups and downs. We already heard a little bit of that, but Fleurette, can you think of a time that was just like really challenging? Like this, this meeting sounds like that. Did you have other spots in reunion that were challenging as well?

Fleurette: Oh, you know, I have to say there, I could list tons of them where it was so difficult. And I mean, I'm, I have been blessed with Amy that her and I have been able to talk about every single little feeling that we've had through the process. So that in itself is, is wonderful. And that it doesn't mean that every time she said something that I felt good about what she said, you know, when she told me things like, there were times I didn't like you, like I hated you. And times I thought like, why couldn't you [00:26:00] have just tried? You know? Like, not that she didn't have a great upbringing, and I think she did and I mean, that's for her to tell her story, but to hear those things, you don't feel real good about that. And there was times, there was lots of times that it was, it was tough and it was, you want to give up, but I had made a promise to myself that I, I wouldn't give up. And, and there's lots of times people treat you like, treated me, I guess for probably some of the most difficult stuff for me was treated me like I, I didn't have a right to be in Amy's life. That a birth mother, and it still is, I still have people 20 years later that I'll speak to and tell them about Amy and I tell her my daughter and, because she is my daughter and my grandchildren. And then when they find out that I gave her [00:27:00] up for adoption and that we've been like in reunion for 20 years, their whole, most people, they change speaking to me. Not that they, some people, it's not that they're rude to me or anything, but it just changes. It changes, that birth mothers and it still is that way, which is really crazy in our society because we think we've come a long ways, but there, it's still to this day, even myself at my age, at 56 years old and professional woman with children and grandchildren, people still have that birth mothers are, yeah, like kind of trash and we're just, we were just supposed to be, um, a vessel and then we're supposed to [00:28:00] disappear. So it's not, I don't think, maybe because of my age now, it's not as harsh as it was, but yeah, I got lots of, I didn't have a right to be in Amy's life and that you're not, you're really not supposed to exist. You're supposed to not exist anymore. So that wasn't always easy to take.

Haley Radke: So you said that you guys talk a lot about lots of different feelings and like you're really real with each other. Amy, do you remember some particularly difficult conversations where you shared something that you thought, oh, I don't know how she's gonna take this?

Amy: Well, I think I, I don't, I, I think that particular conversation, but I, I think that what she was just trying to describe and what I would kind of say similarly is it's been really difficult trying to find a place in each other's life sometimes, or where we fit in each other's life or where we think we fit.[00:29:00] Just like, yeah, I mean, I, I've been frustrated in the past 20 years at times just feeling like, and I now know it's because she didn't really know where she fit in my life. So she, she just kind of backed off sometimes because she thought that's what she should do. Whereas I was like, what the hell? Like, why are, why are you, like, what? Like, is it something I said or like, you know, just feeling like maybe she doesn't want to do this and she just doesn't want to hurt my feelings and say that, you know? And so just really wanting her to be more of a part of my life and, and feeling frustrated that I thought that she didn't and she was just, you know, not saying so kind of thing. Like, so yeah, like I've, I was frank with her a couple times, I'm sure. And it wasn't, I'm sure it wasn't nice and you know, I do feel bad about that now, but it's just like, yeah. That kind of stuff where it's just, I feel like it took us a long time to get on the same page. [00:30:00]

Haley Radke: So one, one spot I find adoptees who are in reunion, their relationship with their first parents changes, is when they have children. So Amy, when you had your first daughter, how did that impact your and Fleurette’s relationship?

Amy: Well, I think with having my first daughter, I do remember shortly after I'd had her in the hospital and it was just her and I, you know, after the, everything happens and everybody leaves, and then it's just you and, and the baby. I just remember thinking like, oh my gosh, you know, I can't imagine having to hand this baby over to anybody, you know? And I remember thinking that very clearly and just thinking like, I just don't know how I could do that. And so just really kind of putting myself in Fleurette’s shoes and thinking like, I don't know how she did that and like having, you know, being compassionate [00:31:00] about it, having compassion about it and, um, yeah. And I think with, like with my first daughter, I think that too, in that time of both of our lives, like I, I was going through a lot. I had postpartum depression quite severe after my first child. And Fleurette was going through a hard time in her own life at that time. And so I think it was, it was difficult for both of us, but I think after I had my second daughter, when things kind of were better for Fleurette, um, in her life and better for me, like I had a totally, completely different experience the second time around being pregnant. And it was just after that I really, that's when I was really like, I had a lot of compassion. Like, I just felt a lot of compassion for, because I sat here, you know, I have these two girls and I just can't imagine being in that place where I, I would have to relinquish them, somebody else and just feeling like, I am her only daughter. I'm Fleurette’s only daughter. And so just thinking like, this is [00:32:00] it for both of us. Like this is whatever I have for children is what she's gonna have for grandchildren. And so just really, I feel like after I had my second child, that's when things were really put into place for me. And I just thought, you know, I really need this and, and I really, I just felt a lot of empathy and compassion for her. And I think that's, for me, when things really clicked or changed, I guess, I don't know if Fleurette would feel the same, but…

Fleurette: When your first daughter was born that, I wasn't in a, in a great place personally either. And also felt like a lot of those feelings for me came back that she had grandparents and I really wasn't, I shouldn't be in her life. People are looking at me like I shouldn't be in her life, that this is grandchild for Amy's parents. And it wasn't, I was, I really wasn't [00:33:00] there to fit into that. And as number two came along, I have, yeah, it really changed for me. I, I felt better where I was in Amy's life. I felt better, I felt more secure about where I was and had got to the point of I don't really give a [expletive] what anybody else thinks anymore. I am in her life and she wants me in her life. So if the rest of the world wants to think it's a terrible thing, I don't know. I'm too old for that. I don't care. And my relationship is different. I mean, they are two different girls and I love them both equally. Don't get me wrong. I love them both equal. But Amy's second daughter, I am, well, we have more of a same personality, maybe that's why. But um, yes, I'm, I feel more like I'm her,[00:34:00] I feel more like I'm her grandmother at this age than with Amy's first daughter. I feel grandmother to them both now. But at this age, I feel 100% that I am Amy's second daughter's grandmother. No question. And it took a few years before I could feel that with Amy's first daughter. Because I didn't, I was at that same thing with Amy. People tell, looking at me like, I don't belong there. I'm not supposed to be there.

Haley Radke: Fleurette, can you take us through just like a bird's eye view, 20 year reunion, has it just settled in these last few years since Amy had her second daughter that you felt more comfortable and like you had a place in her life or did it kind of go up and down? What do you think?

Fleurette: Well, it's gone up and definitely gone up and down and [00:35:00] each like, well, I'm going to say each year, it's not necessarily each year, but each, as each year passes, it became more and more that we were, we were mother daughter and something Amy's adoptive mother did tell me way back and I, through tough times of feeling like I didn't belong, I would go back to it. And she told me one time, she said, Fleurette, this is our normal. She said it is not, because it had come to a point where I was really upset some one time with people telling me or treating me like I didn't belong. And she and I had had a conversation and she just said to me, she goes, Fleurette, this is our normal people don't understand it because it's not their normal. She said, this is our normal. She says, I knew my whole life that this is how, [00:36:00] that I would have to share Amy with her birth mother at some point. She said, so I just, this was our, this was my normal, this was going to be my normal life. That's not normal for somebody else, but it's normal for us. So for me, that's what I held onto lots of times when it was really, really crappy, I just kept going back to that this is our normal, I don't care if you don't understand it, you don't have to understand it because it's not your normal.

And so yeah, there was lots of, lots of ups and downs. Sometimes felt really close with Amy and sometimes we went through times that, not so much. But yes, definitely I would say the last five or six years, Amy?

Amy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, probably five or six years.

Fleurette: Yeah. Have been where I feel like no one can tell me Amy's not my daughter.

Haley Radke: Hmm.

Fleurette: Like she is my daughter. I don't have to explain [00:37:00] that she's not just my daughter, that she is my daughter. So yeah, probably the last five or six years for us, for me anyways, is where I've felt really, really like I belong the most, like belong all the time. Like I don't feel times anymore that I don't belong.

I know Amy has also an adopted mother and a very good adopted mother in my opinion. And I think she's a great person, but I don't feel like I need to take a, I don't need to take a backseat to it anymore. I don't feel that anymore. And there are lots of times in the last 20 years that I have sat and felt like, I wish, I do, I just wish she’s just mine. But yeah, so last few years, and I, I just want to say something about my family. I [00:38:00] am thankful every day, the last 20 years that they have not skipped a beat with Amy. There was no them ever, we need to feel adjusted that she's in her life. There was never, ever that moment from the day they met her, she was their cousin, their niece. She was their family. My mother was that long time before the 20 years. My mom was long time before that. She was, this is my granddaughter and so I'm very, very thankful my family has never skipped a beat with that. So very blessed with that.

Haley Radke: So it only took 14 or 15 years for this to feel like normal. Is that, is that right?

Amy: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Amy, is that, is that true for you?

Amy: That is true. Yeah. I think, well, you know [00:39:00] what though? I just, I just feel like this is a good opportunity. I'm so grateful, Haley that we've met. Like you and I, I was like fangirling on you and we end up, we end up living in the same city. And so we've become friends. And so I'm thankful for this opportunity because I think that when I do tell this story to people, everyone's always so invested and interested in it and people who aren't adopted or even in reunion and so I feel like obviously I know your audience, you know, or people like me. And so I just feel like this is such a good opportunity to tell people, like, don't feel like if things are not going well, that that's not norm, you know what I mean, like that's not normal because like reunion is hard. It is very hard. It is hard work and it is not easy. So it's just, yeah, I think that, yeah, 14 or [00:40:00] 15 years and I mean, I think now we have a really good, a great relationship and you know, and like Fleurette was just made reference to a lot of why I hung in there was because of my family, my extended family, her family, you know, aunts, uncles, cousins, and my grandma because they did not skip a beat. And I do not feel one ounce different than anybody else in that family. You know? So they've just shown me a lot of love. And so that was a lot of it was, it was great encouragement for me to, to hang in there, you know?

Haley Radke: So if, if you had been like, well, I think I'm gonna pull the plug, but I just can't let all these people go.

Amy: Yes.

Haley Radke: I, I mean, I'm just being honest, right? This is some of the things that go through our head, right?

Amy: Yes, absolutely. I could not, like, I, I did think that, I did think that at certain times, especially early on, you know, I did think [00:41:00] that more than once. Like, I, I just don't know if I can do this anymore. But honestly, I could not, I couldn't do that just because I just like, I love them so much and I, I, and to this day, I mean like I still have such great relationships with them and like, I couldn't imagine my life without them now. It's just not even fathomable to me. They were like a lifeline for me in a lot of, a lot of day, a lot of days.

Haley Radke: And Fleurette you had said too, like you had just decided no, I'm here. I'm in it no matter what kind of thing.

Fleurette: Yeah, I, I did and I, I had to tell myself that a lot of times. Because I felt a lot of times that I need to give up. Like I just feel like this is just too hard. But then you know what you got, you felt like that and then you woke up the next day and you thought, no, I I, that you can't give that up. And there is [00:42:00] so, like, nothing good comes without working for it. So I kept telling myself that, that this is good. And yeah, there were tough times, but there's also good times in those tough times.

But yeah, you, I, I don't know. I, I just can't even fathom the thought that had I given up. I mean, we weren't super tight like we always, like we are now, but yeah, that I just, I just couldn't, and I keep saying it, and I know I'm repeating myself, but I just, yeah. I, I, I can't even, the thought of that I could have given up is just can bring me to tears.

Haley Radke: And you guys have always lived a fair distance from each other, is that right?

Amy: No, we did live in Saskatoon at the same time for a few years. Yeah. Yes. I think there was about five or six years in there. Five years maybe that we lived…

Fleurette: Yeah, I think so.[00:43:00]

Amy: …in the same city.

Haley Radke: So practically speaking, how do you guys keep up your relationship? Are you talking on the phone? Are you texting? I sound like an old lady now, but, um, are you texting?

Amy: We we try to talk, I think we, we, we hope, like, I think we talk at least once a month-ish. And maybe I, I mean, we text a lot, like I feel like we text fair, fair often. Yeah. I do, I do try to text her, um, pictures of the girls quite often. Like. Which…

Fleurette: Which I love.

Amy: Yeah. because she isn't here, so, um, I do try to spam her with pictures of, pictures of the girls. But yeah, I mean, I obviously wish we saw each other more. Like, I am not gonna lie, I, I do wish we saw each other more, you know, and, and spent more time together. But I mean, honestly, it is what it is. And, you know, I'm grateful for the time that I do get to see her. Actually, I'm gonna see her this weekend, so I'm looking forward to that.

Fleurette: I, I [00:44:00] agree. I mean, I, I absolutely wish it was, we, I was closer. Like I am very envious and sometimes beyond envious, jealous of some of my friends who have their grandchildren near them. So I, I do and, and Amy.

Amy: Yeah. And me. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh, I, I know where I'm, I'm, I'm with my dad too when he's here. It's like, you know, the boys are the fun part. Yeah.

Fleurette: But I do, I do wish we were closer, but I, uh, we do text and Amy does send me, uh, pictures, which I love. And we try, we do try to talk once a month and…

Haley Radke: That's great.

Fleurette: Yeah. I would love it that I was in Edmonton and I could just be there.

Haley Radke: Well, I, you know, I know you guys have talked about a lot of hard stuff [00:45:00] this interview, so I really appreciate that. Thank you for opening that stuff up. I want to hear before we go to resources, some of the awesome stuff, some of the awesome moments, like the really great things that have come out of reunion for, um, both of you. Who wants to start?

Fleurette: Amy, you can start.

Amy: Um, um, oh gosh. Well, for me it, I'm, I'm gonna say it again, but, uh, I would say it's definitely, I mean, besides having a really good relationship now with Fleurette and like, you know, just having that, I, I do really love my family. Like, I love, you know, my aunts and uncles and my grandma, my cousins, and like, it's been one of the greatest joys of my life really, to watch my cousins grow up and just still be really close to them, to this day and, and good friends. And so, um, that's been awesome. And just having this great big, you know, like wonderful family to, to be in and, [00:46:00] and just, yeah, like I just feel after 20 years, like, like sometimes I look behind me and I just think, man, like I didn't think I was gonna make it a few times, you know? And, uh, and I did, you know, and I am happy about it. And so just I think that sense of like, feeling okay about where I am at and so thankful that I did. And I, I think what the great, another great thing for me too is like, I am super thankful that I did this at 18 because then I've had, you know, really since I turned 18 the rest of my life to, to have these relationships. You know, like it wasn't just, versus, you know, if I was like 45 or 50 and then just meet these people kind of on the fly. So I feel like I've, I've been able to create more time and space for these relationships.

Haley Radke: Didn't you and didn't you like celebrate at this point now you've been [00:47:00] in my life longer than without?

Amy: Yeah, we had a big party two years ago. Fleurette could talk about that. She, she hosted it.

Fleurette: Yeah, we could talk about that.

Haley Radke: Well, that must have been a high point. That's awesome.

Amy: Yes, it was. It was very fun actually. Yeah, it was just because I turned when I turned 36, then from that point forward, um, I would have been in their lives longer than I wasn't, you know, so going forward after 36, um, it was kind of like all that other time is behind me and, and every time or moment afterwards was just, you know, extra time that, that has kind of surpassed the time that I wasn't around. So it, it was very nice. It was, it was a really nice time.

Haley Radke: Okay. Fleurette, your turn.

Fleurette: Well, you know, I, I want to say ditto. I, I am very, very grateful for the relationship I have with Amy. And, and the more [00:48:00] I meet people and talk to people, I realized just how fortunate I am that Amy and I have what we have. I'm ecstatic about that.

And yeah, I guess the awesomeness of Amy being in my family without, I don't have to, I don't ever feel once that I need to worry that she's not part of my family. She, I'm so grateful that she's not different than anybody. She's not treated any different than anybody. She's just a part of everybody, like everybody is.

I'm grateful that my husband feels he, he has a, a stepdaughter, like he feels that. He feels Amy's his daughter, so, and Amy's girls are his grandchildren. So I'm very, very [00:49:00] grateful for that. So yeah, I'm just grateful for our life together. And yeah, I look back and think, wow, there were days and that was a tough struggle, but I also feel like that's done and…

Amy: Yeah.

Fleurette: If people just realized, hey, you know what, once the struggle's done, wow. It's just amazing.

Amy: And just to, and, and talk about it. Like don't not, like don't, don't not talk about it. You know? It's okay to talk about it.

Fleurette: Yeah. You have to, you have to. Amy, like I said before, Amy and I are so fortunate that we talked about every little thing, like, and more than once we talked about every little thing. They weren't always easy conversations, but yeah, just talk about it. Talk about that it feels crappy today or talk about that I didn't enjoy, I didn't enjoy that visit because of this, or, yeah, just [00:50:00] talk about it because you're not going to go like, I, well, I'm not going to go anywhere. So I just feel like, I guess I made that decision that didn't matter how tough it was that I owed her that, and I'm happy I did.

Haley Radke: Well, I think, you know, going back to one of the first things you said in this interview, Fleurette, was that I have to be the adult, I'm the adult in this situation. And so, I mean, that's sort of like the adult decision, you know? I, I think that's amazing. Like that you stuck it out and both of you worked so hard to build this really beautiful relationship. So thank you so much for sharing. Okay. Does, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanna make sure you get in before we do our, our, uh, hobbled together recommended resources?

Amy: Uh, no, I, I don't think so. I, I think just, yeah, like what I said before about, you know, and Haley, you and I have talked about it, [00:51:00] just being real about how you feel and, and actually exploring those feelings and not trying to stuff them down and…

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. That's important. Okay.

Fleurette: Very.

Haley Radke: Okay. So let's do our recommended resources. And you guys, you know, I ask ahead of time, is there any resources you have? And they're like, oh, your show. Your show is so great. I'm like, okay. But people are already listening to the show. Okay. Anyway, I'm going to go last. Amy, why don't you start.

Amy: Okay. Well, I'm just going to say your podcast. No. Um, it has been, honestly, your podcast. I, I, I came upon it and, um, about like two years ago. It's just been like a game changer for me, just, um, being able to hear other people's perspectives about adoption and, you know, just how they feel about reunion and how they feel about being adopted, and it's so validating. So that's been great. And then well, are you gonna talk [00:52:00] about our support group?

Haley Radke: I was, I was, but you go ahead.

Amy: Okay. That's okay. I'll let you do it. I'll let you do it.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Okay. Fleurette, what would you like to recommend or say?

Fleurette: You know what, I, I don't, I don't. As a, actually, I listened to your podcast and that's kind of how I got started on, you know, I've always been, I shouldn't say that. I've always been interested and always reached out to people that were either adoptees or birth parents or adoptive parents. And I've always been, it's always kind of been a passion, clearly for a lot of obvious reasons for me to understand. But your podcasts are what really got me reaching out more to people and trying to, I'm actually trying right now working on it a little bit [00:53:00] a, um, support group. Um, and, but I'm not sure if it should just be birth parents or adoptees, adoptive parents, everybody. So I'm kind of researching that. I do have to say there isn't tons out there for birth parents, or I shouldn't, I guess I shouldn't say that. None that I have found. And I would like to say to anybody that, birth parents especially, but anybody that if you need to ever talk, anybody needs to chat or ask questions or just need someone for a shoulder, I am more than happy to be that person. I, I just don't think there's lots out there, especially I find anyways for birth parents.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. So I went to the Concerned [00:54:00] United Birth Parents Retreat in California. So they're based in the US but they're a really great resource for birth parents and they have support groups across the US and I think a few internationally as well. And I'll put the link to that in the show notes. And there's also an organization in Canada called Origins Canada, and I think they were started by first parents, but they're also a resource for adoptees. So those are a couple of options for first parents to go and look for resources. I believe there's also a first parents group organized out of Vancouver, and so there's a few Canadian ones, but it's so funny y'all, because you know, you're not the first Canadians I've interviewed on the show, but by and large my audience is American, which just delights me to no end because, hello, I'm in Canada. Um, but I find that, you know, the US network just [00:55:00] seems like it was easier for me to connect with and Canada has just been, I don't know, I don't know what's up with that, but…

Fleurette: Yeah, I, I agree.

Haley Radke: I, there's little pockets here and there, but yeah. So if, if you're listening and you are in Canada and you know of some good Canadian resources, please reach out to us. We would love to link to those things from the Adoptees On website and talk about them on the show so people know about them.

Amy: Can I just say one more thing?

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Amy: Sorry. Okay. Um, I know, I know, I know Katrina Palmer listens to your podcast and I am, so I'm taking a minute to just say like, I love her book ‘An Affair with My Mother’, and I listened to her interview with you on the podcast and it was amazing. And so I am a huge fan. So I just want to say that's also one of my resources, but I know you've already used that as a resource, but I just, I'm going to say I loved it, so.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. [00:56:00] So yeah, it's been so good. And while we're recording this, we're sort of just about wrapping up Book Club. So by the time this airs, we'll have been finished, but that's been amazing. So if you didn't join Book Club, you missed out big time because Katrina has been in there answering people's questions and commenting like it's been really, really special. So I'm really glad I got to do that. Okay. I'm gonna recommend my thing. Well, you know what? This is so special for me because Amy emailed me, I don't even know when you emailed me. It must have been a year ago now.

Amy: Yeah, a year ago. Yeah.

Haley Radke: I probably still have emails in there from a year ago I haven't answered. But anyway, I didn't get back to her and then I finally emailed her a couple months later, which is about usually how long it takes me to, to email back. So just in case you've emailed me, I, it's in my inbox. Don't worry, I will get back to you. And anyway, so I emailed her back and then right away [00:57:00] she's like, oh, I just listened to your finale. I didn't know you were in Edmonton. And so we met up for coffee and that was like so special. That was the first time I had ever met a listener in Edmonton. I had met a listener at, listeners, at an adoptee conference before, um, but I mean, everybody was adopted there pretty much and, and so I don't know, for some reason that wasn't quite as like, this moment was like so special. And so I just have such fond memories of that and hearing your story in person and it was so powerful for me, and, and that's one of the reasons why I really wanted to start a support group in Edmonton. Not because I was like, ooh, ooh, Amy has some problems we need to work on. And don't take it that way. I'm, I'm the one that has the problems, but seriously, I, I was like, you know, we are just so great. Like, there's other people in my very own city that are dealing with similar things and, you know, to be [00:58:00] face to face in the same room, it's just something extra. So these, all the Facebook groups are great that are online and we can connect with adoptees that way around the world and that's really special, but just something about being in person is just amazing. And so we have started our group and the first few meetings were just me and Amy. So thank you.

Amy: It was sad. It was a little sad, but we, we managed to find lots of…

Haley Radke: Yeah, I don't know how we did that. We didn't just get our each five minutes, but we got the whole like two hours. So it's pretty good. But there's a little group of us now that have started meeting regularly. And so if you are in the Edmonton area, we'd welcome you to come and join us. And if not, there are adoptee support groups popping up all over. And maybe if there's not one in your area, maybe you're the one to start that, just like Fleurette is going to start something, right Fleurette? [00:59:00]

Fleurette: Yes. It's right. Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Well it's been so lovely chatting with you ladies. Why don't you tell us where we can find you online if people want to say thanks for sharing or if they have questions about reunion stuff, if they want to reach out to you. Amy, where can we find you?

Amy: Well, you can find me on Instagram. So my handle is ‘amynicrn’, so A-M-Y-N-I-C-R-N. And also you can reach me by email, which is, it's amynicrn@gmail.com. So same handle as my, as my Instagram, except @gmail.com.

Haley Radke: Okay, perfect. And Fleurette where can we connect with you?

Fleurette: Um, my email, definitely. It is ffg.gallais@gmail.com. Or I am on Facebook. My name is spelled very [01:00:00] odd. If you do wanna find me there, it's F-L-E-U-R-E-T-T-E, and the last name is Gallais, G-A-L-L-A-I-S.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. I'll put those in the show notes so people can, um, find it if you didn't write it down real quick while right now. Thank you ladies. That was really special to hear both of your stories and to get that little pic, that view into your relationship.

Did you know I have a monthly newsletter? It's a place for me to share my personal thoughts with you, things I wouldn't post in a public blog, and also any behind the scenes news for the show. All that good stuff. If you'd like to be among the first to be in the know, you can sign up on Adopteeson.com/newsletter.

If you'd like to connect with other adoptees who are on this healing journey, come and support me on Patreon. You can help me by pledging a [01:01:00] monthly amount that helps sustain the podcast. And as a thank you, you can join my secret Facebook group, which has all of these incredible people in it who are just like you. Adoptees only. We are navigating awkward reunions. We are searching, we are working towards healing and wholeness in relationships, and with ourselves, and we're all just going on this journey together. To join, go to adopteeson.com/partner and you'll find all the details there. Thank you for listening.

Let's talk again next Friday.

65 [Healing Series] Finding Meaning

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/65

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we're talking about finding meaning in our lives, even when we think of ourselves as a mistake and perhaps without a purpose. I also want to give you a heads up. We do discuss suicide in this episode. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Pamela Cordano. Welcome back, Pam.

Pam Cordano: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Pamela is a fellow adoptee and psychotherapist who specializes in helping you to discover meaning in your life. So that is the bio I have had for you for quite a while. But I am curious, what does it mean to you? Meaning in your life?

Pam Cordano: Yes. Meaning is my favorite subject and to me it's almost like the background music that's playing in my heart all the time. And this wasn't always the case. I can tell you how this happened, like why meaning became so important to me. But I can't do it justice unless we talk for three hours, but I can tell you the story.

I had a terrible infancy. I didn't connect with my adoptive parents. I was an only child. I was just holding my breath my whole childhood. I enjoyed college. I met my husband in the freshman dorm and I had some good experiences, but basically all the way until I was in my mid-forties, I think that I was really in conservation or self-preservation mode, and I didn't even know it because I think that I was just hurt and traumatized from my history and from things feeling hard that I really didn't know another way of being.

And so something really huge happened in 2010 and what that was, and you're gonna have to put your seatbelts on cuz this is a crazy thing I'm gonna say, but I had a therapist who was really dear to me. He was like the therapist for therapists and my friends, my colleagues and I all saw him and he looked like Robert Redford and he just seemed like a guru almost.

And he committed suicide. He jumped off a bridge, and this was mid-November of 2010, and it was so shocking to me that he did that. I didn't see it coming and there had always been a part of me, I think about our adoptee community and how prevalent suicide is. And I've met a lot of adoptees who have had suicidal feelings, even if they've never acted on them.

And I would say I've had that my whole life, where staying alive and investing in life felt difficult and hard and the thing I would do on my better days, and on my harder days or when I was really triggered or when I'd have a fight with my husband or something awful, I would feel like, what is the point? And I would feel like my life force would go out of me really quickly and I think that's an adoptee thing. At least I've heard that a lot of people say that kind of a thing.

So there were times when staying alive was difficult. I never really got to the point of actually in any way contemplating suicide, but I've always had a feeling that living is difficult and it's just, for me, it's just hard to live without having that support of generations and generations of my own biology and being split at the root, like the book title says.

So anyway, my therapist kills himself. And then, let's see, four days later I went to Esalen in Big Sur, which is like a place therapists go to get continuing education units and we take cool classes there. So I was in this group and there was a man in the group who was an AIDS doctor from New York, and I told the group, we all had a chance to introduce ourselves, and I said that I was in a really traumatized, not good place because my therapist had just killed himself and that my goal for the weekend was really just to breathe. Yeah, I didn't really have any other goals to learn anything or anything like that.

So we had to partner up with somebody, and I partnered up with this AIDS doctor, and he told me that his father had killed himself when he was one, and that no one had talked about it, and it was just called an accident.

And so there was this similarity in how he grew up not really knowing what had happened. And then he found himself going to medical school and being an AIDS doctor, and he started putting it together that here he was as an adult, trying to save the lives of mostly young men and it had everything to do with his father and trying to save his father who he couldn't save.

So we connected and I thought to myself, well, here's my therapist who takes the path of suicide. And then here's this doctor who lost his father and has this brilliant career and worked so hard at saving people's lives, and he's so invested in life himself. So I was just comparing the two as two kinds of directions. One's going into life, and one was going out of life. And I recognize both of them inside of me.

The doctor emailed me a link to the California AIDS Ride where people ride their bikes from San Francisco to Los Angeles to raise money for people with AIDS and for research and things like that. And so I felt like I had to do it, and I'm not an athlete and I trained for about seven months riding my bike up to a hundred miles a day.

And that the ride itself was 545 miles, and we rode seven days in a row with an average of 80 miles per day. Some days longer, some days shorter. And I've never done anything like this in my life, and it was brutal. It was grueling to be on my bike training and doing the ride. It was grueling, but for me, it was about two things.

It was about deciding I wasn't going to do what my therapist did. I was going to actually do what this doctor did. I was going to move more and more deeply into life itself. And then the other thing that was just crazy that I didn't expect was it was my first time really putting myself out there to raise money and to do something that was going to benefit all these people that I didn't even know.

It was really for others and that was really, as an adoptee who was angry and self-preservational and conserving my own energy, it was really new to open my heart to people I didn't even know and give to them. So that ride down the coast changed everything. It's like it broke something open in me, and this is going to be too long to even explain.

But it was after that I discovered Viktor Frankl who wrote the book Man’s Search for Meaning about his three years imprisoned in the Holocaust, and how he studied his own relationship with life itself when he lost everything. He lost his pregnant wife, he lost his parents. He lost all but one sibling. He lost his dignity, his freedom, his possessions, his future as far as he knew, and he still found so many ways that life was meaningful. Even though he lost everything.

And somehow that really resonated with me after the AIDS ride, I started to think about myself and all of us, everybody, because I work with people with cancer and I work with people who have had terrible tragedies change their lives completely. Deaths of children and just terrible things.

So I started to realize what Viktor Frankl said was that, even when we've lost everything, we still have access to the attitude we take toward life's limitations. And I thought about the AIDS doctor. He put his pain into service; and my therapist, he put his pain into himself, really, in ending his life and freeing himself that way, I guess.

There was something about service and moving beyond my own self into something outside of myself and serving something outside of myself. And to me that's what meaning is. And I feel like on a psychological level, on a spiritual level, I think that's what makes us feel better.

So I've studied Viktor Frankl a lot, and I started a group 10 years ago for adults who had terrible problems, like stage IV cancer and MS and paralysis and bereavement. We would meet once a week and we would cultivate, Viktor Frankl style, the things that were still meaningful to them and that they still had access to and ways they could transcend their own selves in service of the world despite whatever they had gone through that had obliterated the life that they once knew.

And I didn't charge them anything for the group. We were just trying this. And then we kept meeting and now it's been 10 years and the same group is still meeting every Monday and we're still working at this. And it's the happiest group of people I know.

It's incredible. So we've had a couple people die who were part of the original group, and then we've added more people in. So now we have eight people and three of the original five in the group. We do service projects and we read really cool books together and we look at opportunities to address things happening in their lives in ways that are more open-hearted and more expansive and less conservational and self-protective.

And I feel, as an adoptee, my relationship with meaning has opened a portal to a whole different perspective of what's possible. It's the thing I rely on more than anything really.

Haley Radke: I'm so moved by that whole story. You've talked to us about Viktor Frankl before and I love hearing what has inspired you to move forward into life. The impact it's had, like that ripple has started so many good things for other people as well.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. And then they have started these other new things for other people. It's crazy really. The ripple effect is just amazing. Like when we start to really think beyond ourselves, which I couldn't have done before.

I didn't have access to it. I just was too frightened and too angry, I think, to even believe that there could be another way of living.

Haley Radke: If you had to make a generalized observation, broad-sweeping strokes, I know, about adopted people, what do you think keeps us most stuck in this area and not able to see the bigger picture of meaning in life?

Pam Cordano: For me, it was just feeling really hurt and even disoriented in the life I was in. There's so many adaptations we have to make to our new families and to the world at large when we don't have that foundation behind us that's intact. It just takes so much energy. And then the trauma, and for me, there was a lot of pain of feeling like I didn't get along with my adoptive parents, so I was just consumed with my own, I don't want to say drama in a demeaning way, but my life felt dramatic, like, from fighting with my parents and huge battles and I had addictions, and everything just feeling really difficult and chaotic, like an inner chaos. So to me it was like I couldn't afford to really think about other people.

And I did that enough with just being adaptive and trying not to get rejected again. So it was like a defense, it wasn't authentic necessarily. It wasn't grounded. It was authentic. I was authentically a nice person, but it wasn't grounded because I didn't have my bearings yet.

So isn't it like Maslow's pyramid? People who don't have enough food to eat aren't going to be thinking about self-development or, what would you call it, healing the wounds. It's no, we need some food. So it's like that. Maybe this had to come later for me.

Haley Radke: I think about that sometimes, working in this space, and about how sometimes it does feel a little bit like why can't we just suck it up?

Because we do have food and we have warm houses, or cool air-conditioned ones if you live somewhere that's not Canada. And, as adults, a lot of us have gone on and gotten married or had children of our own and started new families.

Like, why isn't that enough and is it selfish to think about all of these things that are all of our baggage and stuff? I don't know if I'm taking us down a rabbit trail.

Pam Cordano: No, I think that's what I was saying at the beginning. I don't think it was self-indulgence that made my life feel hard to me, like I was a dramatic person or a self-indulgent person, or even a selfish person.

I think that I was just traumatized and overwhelmed by things that didn't seem as overwhelming to other people as they were to me. So I think it was honest, but this is where the culture doesn't see us as being traumatized, they see us as being lucky and fine. It's really hard internally to make sense of the ways we're not fine.

And to have a place to put it. We don't get that cultural support to help us become more fine. It just gets walled off and we have to deal with it on our own. So I think it's really legit, it's just that the culture doesn't, so it's easier for us not to.

Haley Radke: Fair enough, fair enough. You had a really huge event happen with the loss of your therapist in this very shocking way that's like this wake-up call kind of thing. But what about those of us who haven't had this big experience but yet are still feeling these things you've been describing, like not really knowing what the point is or just feeling, I don’t know, as you're talking about this, I just feel like this sense of being lethargic, right? Like you're just kind of existing, right? Just kind of existing, but there's no zest. I dunno.

Pam Cordano: There's no organizing push forward or something like that. Is that what you mean? I think growing and healing takes a ton of courage, and I'm a huge fan of going out of one's comfort zone.

Like the people who flew to Berkeley to do our healing retreat, I think of them as being so brave because they didn't know us. They didn't know what to expect. They didn't know each other and they got so much out of their own willingness to be brave and to try something that was an unknown.

And even calling a therapist can be scary. Because it hurts so much when we're not attuned to, when we're misattuned to by people. But I think there's lots of ways to heal and grow and experience oneself in new ways. It's not always therapy for some people. For some people it's surfing or it's riding a bike or playing an instrument.

I guess we're all different. For me, I have felt lonely and isolated, and I have yearned for a sense of belonging. And so I have tried really hard to have experiences where I can work at that. Other adoptees might have different focuses.

For me, it was about feeling like a misfit. I don't belong. A ton of shame. How do I feel like I belong on this planet? That my life makes sense? That I deserve to be here? That I have something to offer the world? That I'm not just a mistake that shouldn't have been here in the first place? Like, how do I move into being behind my life?

And not very long ago I found out that Viktor Frankl's original book was titled Say Yes To Life, but his editors made him change it to Man’s Search for Meaning because it was more, I don't know, academic sounding or something, but he was just writing about how to say yes to life. And I think that what I wanted to find was a “yes,” so that my “no” could just be quiet.

Haley Radke: You know what the other thing I find really inspiring about this whole deal is that you were in your forties, and I think that so many people that I have talked to who are just realizing that adoption has had an impact on their life are in their fifties, some in their sixties, and I feel like I'm on the young spectrum.

I'm just about 35 when we're recording this. That to be exploring this healing and all these kinds of topics that we're speaking about, but there's something so freeing and hearing that you were already in your forties when you woke up to this and it's there's still so much ahead.

Pam Cordano: Yes, there's so much ahead. I would never want to go back in time to my youth because I was so unhappy and I was so confused. And I'm almost 53, and I have this idea that my life is just going to keep getting better and better because I feel more and more of a yes to my life.

To life itself. Not just my life, but to life. And so that makes me feel like I feel free in a way that I didn't use to.

Haley Radke: What would you say to someone who's hearing us talk about this and it just feels too big, too overwhelming? This is a huge mindset shift.

Pam Cordano: Right. So what I say to people who I meet in my office who have stage IV cancer, or who are dying, or who are paralyzed, or who lost their child and none of that can ever change is that we can start by finding little things that we connect with that give us a sense of vitality inside of us.

Let's go back to Viktor Frankl. From the prison camps he appreciated sunsets. That's incredible and we can do that too. Appreciating something that's beautiful and doing things we enjoy that make us feel more alive and more connected, and telling stories that mean something to us.

Like the story I told you about the AIDS ride or working with attitudes that we believe in when we're having a hard time. Like for me, the attitude of curiosity. Curiosity is an attitude. So when I'm working and if I start to feel tired or disinterested or disengaged with a client, I know the first thing I need to do is get curious.

And I get curious by getting into my eyes and looking at them with fresh eyes and seeing them. They're here. It's a present moment, being in the direct experience, and then my curiosity keeps me really interested and then I'm more there and then magic starts to happen.

There's all kinds of things that are available to all of us all the time. And one thing that Viktor Frankl says that I love is that meaning is everywhere for all of us. And it isn't that meaning goes away, that we don't have meaningful lives, it's that we become disconnected ourselves from meaning.

And that's a really hopeful thought to me. And I believe it because then it's like it's accessible to all of us, and all we need to do is really tap into it, which is what I love to teach my clients to do, and myself.

Haley Radke: That's a light bulb moment for me, Pam, because as I'm telling you, oh, what do you want to say to these sad people who are in their fifties and sixties who think they haven't done anything and they're stuck and blah, blah, blah.

There's meaning already. We have to wake up to it.

Pam Cordano: Right. It's right there and it's everywhere. It's where you are right now all over the place. Are you in your house right now? So you have two little boys sleeping, is that right?

Haley Radke: Yes. We're recording this in the evening. They are asleep, yes.

Pam Cordano: And your husband's there?

Haley Radke: Yes.

Pam Cordano: Do you have any animals?

Haley Radke: I do. I have a little dog, Lucy.

Pam Cordano: Oh, you have a dog named Lucy. That's so cute. Yeah. And you have friends all over the world?

Haley Radke: I do.

Pam Cordano: And you have a trip ahead that's special and meaningful to you to San Francisco?

Haley Radke: Yes, I do. And I'm gonna get to meet you.

Pam Cordano: Yep. We're gonna meet, and there's stars, and there's the moon and the clouds and rain. And there's just stuff everywhere.

Haley Radke: I think you meant snow.

Pam Cordano: Oh, snow. Okay. Life is seriously like a buffet. It's just there's stuff everywhere. We just have to train ourselves to see it and know it and tap into it and connect with it.

Little bits of meaning lead to bigger chunks of meaning and bigger access to meaning. We don't have to feel all excited about life right now, we can just move into it bit by bit.

Haley Radke: Oh, I love that. And you've given us just our little beginner steps to explore this a little more. I think that's just perfect.

If you were gonna recommend, wait, let me guess. Would you recommend that we read Viktor Frankl's book Man’s Search for Meaning?

Pam Cordano: I would, and when you read it, here's the thing, here's the adoptee's take on Viktor Frankl's book. It's a short book. It's in two parts. Part one is his experience and part two is his theories.

And it's written for laypeople. It's totally readable. And he wrote the book in 11 days, right after he got out of the camps. And what's so cool as an adoptee is, people say, oh my gosh, the first part of his book is so depressing, it's so brutal. Yes, it is. But if you the adoptee like me the adoptee, if we read it looking for these little treasures we're going to find in the first part, that's what the whole thing is about.

He's not writing the first part to say boo-hoo, look what happened to me. He's writing it to say, look what I discovered in one of the worst aspects of being human. Look what I found. And then he teaches us how to find it too. So I find his whole book just miraculous. A lot of people say that his book is one of the 10 most influential books ever written.

It's incredible. So yeah, it's five bucks at the paper paperback store. It's easy.

Haley Radke: So good. Is there anything else that you would recommend as we explore this topic of meaning? Any other books or resources or anything?

Pam Cordano: Yeah, I write about this on my website and I spell it out maybe more articulately. My website has a section on meaning where I break it down and talk about a really cool clinical trial they did with advanced cancer patients, connecting them to Viktor Frankl's work with meaning.

And it was an incredible clinical trial where people who really were done because they were dying, they got a new lease on their life and they became less anxious, less depressed, less despairing, more connected, and really into their life, even though they were dying.

And so it's a wonderful clinical trial that I describe on my website that is really special to me. It's so special to me. I flew to New York to meet the guy who spearheaded this clinical trial. I was like, I have to meet this guy and work with him because I loved his work so much and I felt if these people dying of cancer can do it, then we adoptees can do it too.

That's how I felt.

Haley Radke: Okay, I'm gonna link to that for sure in the show notes. Oh, that sounds so interesting. Speaking of meaning and experiences and all of those good things, you have two different events coming up that I want you to tell everybody about.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. The first one is that Anne Heffron and I are doing adoptee retreats in Berkeley, California. We have one coming up in July, one in November.

The first one that we had in February this year was just a wild success. It was off the hook. I couldn't have predicted how amazing the experience would be. We have 10 adoptees, the two of us, and we just work like mad for four days to have breakthroughs in our healing process and to really utilize the power of a group to magnify a healing experience.

We're taking that to New York and London in January.

And then in October of this year, and in April of next year, a colleague of mine named Patty, who's a Jungian analyst, she and I are leading a group of 10 women on the Camino de Santiago in Spain for a healing pilgrimage to go and experience little ancient towns and walk for eight days in a row, and then meet up with an artist and integrate our experiences.

And the first one got booked immediately and now we're booking for April of 2019. So that's not adoptee-specific, but it's for women between the ages of 40 and 90.

Haley Radke: Wow, that sounds incredible and I bet it's gonna fill up fast. So if we would like to get in touch with you about either of those, where's the best place?

Pam Cordano: My email, pcordano@comcast.net.

Haley Radke: Perfect. I will link to that, as well, in the show notes on adopteeson.com. Thank you so much, Pam, for talking us through meaning. I can tell it's just so dear to you.

Pam Cordano: Thank you. It is. It's my thing.

Haley Radke: So good. Thank you.

If you are finding the Adoptees On podcast valuable, I want to invite you today to partner with me. I have monthly partners from all over the world who stand with me and help support the production costs of bringing you this show every single week. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details for that. Thank you so much for your generosity.

Also, I want to let you know that my trip to San Francisco is coming up. As Pam and I mentioned briefly in the show today, we get to meet in real life. I'm so excited. And so that's Sunday, May 20th. Anne Heffron is going to be teaching a Write or Die class, and we are going to have a meet-up later on in the evening for podcast listeners.

So I'm gonna be there. Pam is also gonna be there. I would love to invite you to come and meet up with us, hang out just a couple hours of getting to know each other in real life. If you're going to come meet me in San Francisco, adopteeson.com/events, as well as our Facebook page on the events tab, has all the details for you there.

I would love it if you would come. Please come. I'm coming all the way from Canada, so it's only fair, right? That you drive a little ways. It's fine. It's fine. It's good. I have goosebumps. I'm so excited. When Pam texted me to tell me she had booked a hotel room and she was coming to meet me, I cried. I literally started crying. I was so happy. So please come. You can be in on that big hug. Big group hug.

And lastly, I just want to ask if you would share the show with someone. Adopteeson.com has all the links to all of our show notes, all of our episodes, all the places that you can download and find the show.

And what if you share it with just one person that you think might be struggling a little bit with finding purpose in their life? I think that listening to Pam talk about meaning and just the simple little things that we can look around for in our life and say, wow, this is so valuable. My life does have meaning.

I think it would be an encouragement to them. So share the show with just one friend that you think might like to listen to this today. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

63 [Healing Series] Triggered Triage Kit

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/63

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Haley Radke: This show is listener-supported.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we tackle something so many of us deal with: What do you do when you get triggered? Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Pamela Cordano. Welcome, Pam.

Pamela Cordano: Thanks, Haley.

Haley Radke: Pamela is a fellow adoptee and a psychotherapist who specializes in helping you to discover meaning in your life. And today you're going to help us with: we get triggered all the time, so you're going to help us with a triggered triage kit. I love that.

Pam Cordano: A triggered triage kit, what every adoptee needs.

Haley Radke: Yeah, how much do you charge for that? Because I would pay a lot of money–

Pam Cordano: A lot of money!

Haley Radke: –to carry that around with me.

Pam Cordano: We need special purses with bling or whatever. Man-purses with bling. Everybody can have a purse, A trigger triage kit.

Haley Radke: So before we talk about the kit, which is awesome, can you just tell us what does it even mean to get triggered? We see and hear that word all the time. It's like a buzzword now, “getting triggered”.

Pam Cordano: The thing is, we all know what it is, right? Because we experience it. It's really just overwhelm. It could even be trauma. Our system just gets lit up like a Christmas tree with too many lights on it, and it's more than we can handle. And so we get overwhelmed or unable to really tolerate what we're feeling. And we often have our pattern ways that we deal with being triggered. Some of us get panicky and anxious, and some of us go toward addictions, and some of us get kind-of sleepy and disengaged, or disassociated, and we all have our ways that we deal with being triggered that we probably all know, to some degree.

Haley Radke: Okay, I think I've had all of those. Plus stomach issues. Lots of stomach issues for me.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. Sometimes I think that we don't even quite catch the moment it happens until we're fully into it, and then we're like, ‘oh my gosh,’ and we're overwhelmed, and we're triggered. It takes practice, and it takes maybe living more and more years to really get good at identifying when it happens, so that we can catch it sooner.

Haley Radke: Okay. I'm just like, ‘Okay, I need to figure this out. How do I catch it sooner?’ Okay. So last night I was reading a book and my favorite genre is psychological thrillers, pretty much. I almost am always reading one, and I don't know if you read much of those, but I'd say about 10% of them have some form of an adopted person showing up to exact revenge on their birth family–

Pam Cordano: Oh my gosh.

Haley Radke: And you don't find that out till a little later on. Yeah. Nice. What a nice picture.

Pam Cordano: You read this out of choice? Before you go to bed?

Haley Radke: Well, it's only about 10%, I would say, so, you know, most of the time it's okay. But last night I was about halfway through the book and I started feeling a little suspicious, so I went to the end, because I don't like surprises anyway. It takes a lot to surprise me, I would say. I don't know why I enjoy thrillers so much, it doesn't make sense, I know. But I went to the end and I find this out, this is an adopted person who is coming to obliterate her family. And I just got so mad. Yeah. And so I was trying to sleep and I couldn't, of course, because all the things: my heart was racing, and my stomach was in knots, and I wanted to break my Kobo, and it's like this heightened response to something that shouldn't make me, I don't know, I feel like it shouldn't make me that angry–

Pam Cordano: Wait, wait. But who's that saying that it shouldn't make you that angry? That voice is quite suspicious. Who is that?

Haley Radke: It’s me, my inside voice! I don't know.

Pam Cordano: Okay, so can I interrupt this, bring up something about what you just said? How we talk to ourselves when we get triggered is really important. And you and I have talked about this before on your show about having that internal adult that talks to us. So when we're triggered, if we have a voice that comes in and starts to criticize us, that says, “Oh you shouldn't be this upset,” or “You shouldn't be this triggered,” or “What's wrong with you?” Then we're just adding insult to injury when our system is hyper-aroused, and it's super uncomfortable on a physical and emotional level. So how we talk to ourselves with our triggers is something we can learn to do differently. With help. I learned it in therapy.

Haley Radke: Okay. I need to learn how to do that, because I often do have that inner talk, like, ‘Why is this thing that no one else seems to be affected by pushing me over the edge?’ And the other thing that's happened quite frequently, I haven't talked too much about this, but I'm in a little bit of a situation with my church. I would say they probably feel everything is resolved on their side, and I am doing my best to get to that point, but every time we go, in the service now, I really pick up on any time the word “orphan” is mentioned, or the word “adoption” or anything about blood or family, there's these key words, right? And even though in context what's being presented in the service doesn't necessarily have anything to do with my situation, or even with adoptees in general, it's those things plus this conflict I'm having, then the whole rest of the service I'm just like, ‘Yep, this is what happens.’

Pam Cordano: Okay, so I know you're not my client and we're not doing therapy right now at all, but if you were my client, I would ask you to just pause. Because both examples, from reading a story about an adoptee killing their birth family, and then this example with the church, and these words, and the way that we adoptees have an experienced understanding of these words which is different from how they might be talked about at church. These are two huge examples of triggers. I don't know if listeners even listening to this might be like, ‘Whoa!’ and overwhelmed already, you know what I mean?

So actually the first tool in the triage kit is pausing. When we start to notice that something's going wrong in our systems, like we've read a story that's really triggering or upsetting to us, or we're hearing something that we're not expecting to hear, but we hear it and it triggers us. As soon as we start to notice that physiological hyperarousal –like that's what I was feeling when you were sharing the examples– the first thing to do is to try to learn how to pause. Some people call it “the sacred pause”. It's a pause to try to take a good look at what's actually happening in the moment, and to get one's bearings so that they can even know how to start breaking it up into little, more bite-sized pieces, to even figure out what to do.

Haley Radke: So what does that look like when I am, say, sitting in a service and this is happening? What does the pause look like? Does that mean I exit?

Pam Cordano: The more we can start to slow our awareness down –this is mindfulness– and pay attention to what's happening inside of us in the moment. If you were to really break it into a slow motion kind of thing, even if you're already triggered, you might notice your heart's speeding faster, or that your body's gotten kind-of firm, or that your muscles are tensing in resistance to what's being said. Or you might feel a fight-or-flight feeling like you want to get out of there.

And all of this, with practice, can be observed before a decision is made about what to do with anything. So if you were really, really overwhelmed, it might be the best thing for you to quietly get up and exit, because it's just too much. As we learn to bear sensations in our bodies, either with the help of a therapist, or with a meditation practice, or a yoga practice, we become more and more comfortable handling more and more reactions that are physiological and stem from trauma and overwhelm. And that's where we become more able to make choices about what to do next. Because if we're not used to this intensity, these feelings in our body, we might just be used to cutting off our awareness of our bodies, and not even really know what's going on until we're really overwhelmed to the point we have to maybe just go in our rooms and shut the door. Or for other people it might be, like, engaging in some vindictive behavior or whatever. We go into some other action. So ideally, like if I was that little angel on your shoulder and you're in church, and on the other shoulder is the one saying, “Guy, why is this upsetting you? It's not upsetting anybody else. What's wrong with you?” So if I'm the nice little person on your shoulder, I might say, “Okay, hold on, hold on, we don't have to listen right now. Let's just take a breath and pause. What's happening right now?” And the question, “What's happening right now?” is really: “What's happening inside of you right now?”

And the answer is really about sensations, like, “My chest is tight. I'm sweating. My shoulders are super tight, my jaw is tight. I have this urge in my body to just get up and get out of here.” Answers like that would be available with enough loving asking of the self, “What's happening right now?”

And then you might say, “This, that, and this is happening.” And I might say, “Okay, let's just take a couple of breaths.” Because breathing is always good for being triggered. A couple of big breaths. And that changes things in the body and the nervous system. The shoulders can drop sometimes and you can see a bit of breathing, and even just being talked to by somebody inside yourself is helping. And we have to go bit by bit with being triggered of, ‘Can we hang in there or do we have to make a change?’ Like, a behavioral change. Like, get out of the room, or something else, depending on the situation. Put the book down, throw the book away! Put the book in the backyard until tomorrow morning and tell your husband to get rid of it.

Haley Radke: That's pretty good.

Pam Cordano: What do you think?

Haley Radke: Well, I've already calmed down, because I was breathing when you were talking me through that, and I was like, ‘Oh, I've already calmed down.’ That's good.

Okay, pausing–

Pam Cordano: What do you think it was that calmed you down? Was there a moment that you noticed something started to shift into calmer?

Haley Radke: I was doing deep breaths. So sorry for the sound on that, I'll mute it. But I was doing deep breaths and when you said, “And then your shoulders could drop,” that literally happened, my shoulders dropped back and I just felt like my whole posture was more relaxed.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. So, if we say that the first thing in the trigger triage kit is to pause, then the second thing could be to take a couple of big breaths and just oxygenate yourself. And then to ask the question, with a really kind voice, of, “What's happening right now?” and trying to notice what's happening, even in a sensation way, because the sensations are the most honest answer. Our brains could start saying, ‘Oh my God, that woman is such a jerk. I can't stand her! She always does this, blah, blah, blah!’ but that's not gonna get us anywhere.

But if we say to ourselves, ‘What's happening right now?’ and we check inside, ‘Okay, I feel like I'm gonna throw up,’ or ‘I feel like I'm gonna pass out,’ or whatever things might be happening inside of us, if we have a kind voice asking, then our response has a chance to be listened to. And then now we're relating to ourselves in a way that a mother or father might relate to a child in a loving way.

Haley Radke: That feels peaceful.

Pam Cordano: That's good. Problem solved!

Haley Radke: Yeah, I'm good! But this is my recounting of the triggering moment, it's not necessarily the moment.

Pam Cordano: Right. So there's more, so we could go on and say more things about the trigger triage kit.

Haley Radke: What would you do next?

Pam Cordano: Well, something we talked about a lot at the adoptee retreat with Anne and with the participants, was we talked about how there's two different networks in the brain. One network is called the default network, and it's just the same stuff we already think and know, that's based in fear and based in our previous experiences in the world. It kind-of goes around and around in circles. It's just recycling what we already know, it's not open to new information. And so our default network is really that voice that says to you like, ‘Why are you reacting to this story? Nobody else is.’ That's the default network talking and it's just this patterned way we talk to ourselves, that often isn't very nice, because it's fear-based, and it wants us to get in line and pull it together or whatever.

And the other network that's completely unrelated, it's an entirely different network, is the direct experience network, which takes place in the present moment. So that's the place where something new can happen and where we can actually change what's happening with us. And so in the example of being in church where you're hearing stuff and you're triggered, with the example of pausing and taking a couple of breaths, already taking a couple of breaths is in the present moment, it's a direct experience in the present moment.

And then talking to yourself and saying, “What's happening?” The question really is “What's happening right now?” So the answer is going to be what's happening right now, and now we have a chance for something new to happen and for there to be something that can heal in the trigger. Because we're in the direct experience network, where new things can happen.

So to me, therapy is about helping clients get into the present moment and into their direct experience so that they can have a new experience. I never want to sit with a client and have them just tell the same stories with the same emotions over and over again, because they're going to leave the session in exactly the same shape as when they walked in.

Haley Radke: I love what you say about that's a healing thing to go into that, like you're reprogramming.

Pam Cordano: Yeah, you're literally changing your brain.

Haley Radke: And I think what our default is when we're triggered is to run, right? And if we can build these couple steps in, this is giving us the opportunity for healing instead of avoiding it and then always getting triggered by the exact same thing. Because you can't always avoid it.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. And it takes sometimes more than what we do with ourselves, but even if we're in therapy, we still have the six days in between the sessions where we have to deal with life and our own triggers ourselves. It's really the awareness of what's happening in our traumatized systems, and then the kind voice that understands we've got a reason to feel that frightened or angry or overwhelmed.

So we have kindness and we have awareness, and those two things are really going to help us. And that's really what therapists do is they're kind and they're aware and they're investing themselves in us.

Haley Radke: So will you fit in my bag that I'm gonna carry around everywhere? In my kit? Nice, sparkly–

Pam Cordano: Yeah! And then when you– this is what's happening with me is then when you get really good at this you're just gonna kick me out, because you're going to want to put something else in your bag. I'll be in the way at some point. And that's when we know we can handle it ourselves.

Haley Radke: Oh, this is so helpful. Thank you.

Pam Cordano: Another thing to think about with when we get triggered– and of course there are variations. There's mildly triggered, moderately triggered, severely triggered. When I'm severely triggered, which happened to me a couple weeks ago, I can have a feeling of kind-of paralysis. Not physical paralysis, but I don't know what to do, and I feel terrible and I don't know how to get myself out of it, and I have to wait a bit for something, whether it's some rest, or whether it's the right conversation with the right person, or some part of me to show up to help myself. Sometimes I can't do this on the spot, like we're talking about with the church example.

But when we're not that severely triggered, when we're more mildly to moderately triggered, and we pause and we ask, “What's going on?”, a lot of times if we're not used to this yet we have an impulse to do something. For me, if I'm triggered and I just can't cope with it, Ben and Jerry’s sounds really good to me.

And so part of my brain knows that if I eat a whole pint of Ben and Jerry's, I'm not going to sleep very well. I'm going to feel bad in the morning. Like, I'm going feel like too much sugar in the morning. But what we can do with ourselves or some people, they have other things they do. They maybe they do online shopping, or they're playing phone games, or whatever to try to soothe themselves. And there's nothing wrong with soothing ourselves, but when the soothing behaviors aren't really our goal in the long run –like, I don't wanna play Candy Crush for too long, like half an hour's okay, but I don't want to play for hours– then we can work with ourselves. I can say, “Okay, Pam, I know you want to go play Candy Crush right now. That's fine. You're welcome to do that, but let's just give it five more minutes. Let's see if we can bear this feeling for five more minutes before we go to that.” And that's a way of titrating our tolerance for how we feel. And again, this is not when we're extremely triggered. This is just when we're mildly, we're moderately triggered. So we build in space to experience what we're feeling, even journal about it before we go to the trusted behavior that's going to soothe it or change it.

And then there's always other things, too, I'll just throw these out. Like it's always good to do, if we are up for it, when we feel triggered and we're inclined to be either like, we want to do flight, fight, or freeze. If we can manage it, it's good to do a few gentle yoga poses and be with our breath. It's good to call a friend or somebody that we trust and talk it through with them and go toward a person who's safe. It's good to journal. It can be good to turn on music that is soothing or happy or comfortable music. There's a lot of things we can do. It could be good to go read poetry or some kind of inspirational text that reminds us about another way of feeling in the world. So, we can make a connection to things that make us feel better. That's always a good thing to do, too, if we can manage it. When I'm really triggered, sometimes I just can't. I just isolate and, you know, go down the rabbit hole for a while, and then I've come out and apologize later.

Haley Radke: Yeah, if I didn't have two young kids, I'm sure I would be spending more time in my bedroom with the door closed some days.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. As long as you're nice to yourself in there, it's fine with me. We can’t go in the bedroom and be mean to ourselves, that's just terrible.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. I won't give you any more examples of the things that I've said to myself because it's been worse. So anyway, this was really helpful. Thank you. You mentioned the retreat, you and Anne Heffron run adoptee healing retreats, and there's some coming up. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Pam Cordano: Yeah. We had our first one in February in Berkeley, California. And it was just incredible. I knew we had a good program lined up for everybody, we had 10 people that flew out to see us, but I didn't know how it was going to feel to be in a room with 12 people, all of us adopted. Something about the resonance of adopted people where we don't have to explain anything and we just get to work, really, at what's in our way of becoming more comfortable in our skin and more joyful in having more access to what we want in life. So it was a wonderful experience. I feel changed by it.

So we have one coming up in July, again in Berkeley, and one in November in Berkeley. And then Anne and I, in January of 2019, are going to go out to New York and then we're going to go to London and have a weekend each place. So we're really excited. And then we're going to have a Part Two adoptee retreat for people who have already taken Part One who want to come to Part Two, and we're just going to reinforce and build some new aspects of healing.

Haley Radke: Amazing. Amazing. So if people are interested in attending that, where can they get in touch with you?

Pam Cordano: They can find Anne Heffron or me on Facebook and message us, or they can also email me at pcordano@comcast.net.

Haley Radke: Awesome. And I have links to all of your social media and your websites up on Adopteeson.com so people can find you there too. Great. So in addition to the adoptee retreat, you have something else that's really exciting. Please tell us about it.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. This is not adoptee-specific, but a friend who's a Jungian psychologist and I are leading a group of 10 women on the Camino de Santiago in Spain, and we're considering it, like, a non-religious pilgrimage. It can be religious depending on the person, but it's just a pilgrimage of growth and transformation. So we'll be walking for eight days in a row, and then we're gonna meet up with an artist in Santiago and we're going to do an integrating project. And the trip filled up really quickly, so we're really excited about that. And we're gonna have another one in April of 2019, and we're going to do the same thing. We're just going to walk for eight days and spend two additional days on the Camino, an ancient pilgrimage pathway in Spain.

Haley Radke: That sounds incredible.

Pam Cordano: Yeah, it's like one of my dreams to put healing together with traveling. Even though we're not going to be acting as therapists on the trip, I just think traveling in an intentional way is therapeutic in and of itself. So I'm really excited about it, yeah.

Haley Radke: Beautiful. People can get in touch with you for more details if they would like to come along.

Pam Cordano: Thanks, yes.

Haley Radke: So good to talk to you. Thank you for the very, very helpful triggered triage kit. I think that people are gonna find it really valuable. I already do.

I hope you had some good takeaways from Pam like I did, and some of those things seem so simplistic, but honestly, when you are in the moment and you're having this experience that is so emotional, that's what it takes is those tiny little steps to bring us down back into awareness of what's really going on for us.

So I want to challenge you to try it. I'm going to be trying it out, too. Lots of deep breathing in my future, friends. If you would like to come and meet Pam in person, and myself, and our friend Anne Heffron, who Pam does these wonderful adoptee retreats with, come to San Francisco, come and meet us in May! Sunday, May 20th, Anne is gonna be teaching her Write or Die class, which I'm very excited to take from her, and then later on in the evening, we're going to just have a hangout meetup. Just hanging out, that's it. Excited to spend time with listeners and some former guests of the show and you can come, I would love it. If you check out Adopteeson.com/events, has the details, or you can go to our Facebook page and click on the events tab there. All the details are available for you and I'd love to meet you in real life.

This show is listener-supported, and what that means is there are so many of you standing with me, actually donating to the show monthly as a financial partner, which helps keep the show going. You are helping to cover all the production costs and all the behind-the-scenes things that it takes to run a podcast like this. So I just want to say thank you so much to my generous donors. And if you feel that this podcast is a valuable resource, if you have learned something from it or if you know another adoptee that would find value from it, I would really love it if you would consider partnering with me. Adopteeson.com/partner has details of how you can join up monthly, or there's a one-time donation link right on the homepage of Adopteeson.com. Thank you. Thank you so much.

And another way that you can help support the show is by telling just one person about this episode. Maybe you know of an adoptee that struggles with triggers just like me, and they would find some of these tips really, really valuable. So I'd love it if you would just text them right now and say, “Hey, have you heard the latest Adoptees On episode?” Or send them a message on Facebook. I think it would be really helpful for them to learn these techniques that Pam has taught us today. Thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

60 April: I've Claimed It

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/60

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 4, Episode 2, April. I'm your host Haley Radke. Today I want to invite you into a discussion about relationships with ourselves through the lens of identity and race. April Dinwoodie shares her journey with us of growing up brown in a white family, navigating relationships with her adoptive family, and how she has come to claim her own identity.

We also touch on the recent closure of the Donaldson Adoption Institute and what April sees as the way forward in the advocacy movement. We wrap up with recommended resources and, as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.

And, if [00:01:00] you're interested in hearing about a way to meet up with other Adoptees On listeners, stick around till the end of the show for a fun announcement. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, April Dinwoodie. Welcome, April.

April Dinwoodie: Thank you. It's so good to be here, Haley. Thank you.

Haley Radke: And I love your podcast. We'll get to that later, but a fellow podcaster, so fun to have that on the show. You, too, know the power of podcasting and how it can bring us together, so I'm so, so glad to talk to you. I'd love it if you start the way we usually do here. And would you share your story with us?

April Dinwoodie: Yeah, it'd be my honor, and thank you for creating space for all of us and it's definitely been a medium that I've learned to really appreciate in many ways. So I'm grateful for it.

So, it's one of those things where [00:02:00] I always knew I was adopted, right? My family's white and I'm brown, so I don't remember a time when my parents sat me down and said, okay, April, this is, uh, this is something we need to tell you. I just always knew, not in a negative or a positive way, just that that information, on its own, was just basic, real information. Like I was adopted.

What came with that were many layers of search for identity and belonging and things that I'm now totally plugged into and know I can almost pinpoint exactly when some of those moments were happening in my younger years that I couldn't make sense of then.

So, you know, my family is one that's a typical New England family. Born and raised in New England for several generations and my parents met in 4-H, so they were really small and then were high school sweethearts and married right out of college. Excuse me, out of high school and [00:03:00] started, you know, took some space and time actually, not because they wanted it, but because of the universe and biology, it took a little while for them to get pregnant with their first child, my oldest brother.

Once they had my older brother, they had my younger, older brother 11 months later. And then three years later they had my sister. So when I hear my parents talk about that time in their life, it was just a pretty basic decision. Like, you know, we wanted another child. Ideally a girl. So my sister could have a sister.

And in that time they knew some folks who had adopted. It was just not a thing, right? Not a lot of people were doing it, but they thought, hmm, all right. Like, it might be a way to, you know, sort of round out our family, so to speak. And there you have it.

They kind of went about the process [00:04:00] and went to a foster-to-adopt agency, a children's friend and service in Rhode Island. And, you know, I tell the story when my parents got the call. They said, we have a girl. She may be biracial. Right? And they really, you know, didn't think too much about that, right? There wasn't a point in time where they, I think, really mulled over it too, too much.

And so the wheels were spinning at that point. I had already been in foster care for about seven months before I was placed with my adoptive family. So I spent a little bit of time in foster care and very little time in the hospital, from what I can tell with my birth mother, Helen. You know, this was the way that my family decided to expand their family, and they really didn't give race a whole lot of a consideration. And, you know, it became and has become for me a central theme in my identity, like, you know, figuring that stuff out.

So, I thought everybody had a brown kid at home until I went to kindergarten [00:05:00] and I was looking at brown kids and there weren't brown kids. I was like, oh, maybe they come on another day. And I was like, oh wait, it's been like a week or a month or I don't know how long, but there aren't that many brown kids. Like, okay, so that's kind of weird.

My family was just so kind of tight that I just thought my family was like everybody's family until it wasn't, you know. It was just one of those things and then it still was just my family, until it wasn't. Like when someone would make reference to me.

And it happened more often than I care to really admit, but people used to think I was a Fresh Air kid, which, for people who don't know, the Fresh Air Fund is a program where inner-city kids, usually black or brown, go to the suburbs, usually white and spend the summer. So that had happened to me and, and I'm like, fresh air. Of course. Yeah. I love fresh air. It's the best.

Because people would say, is she a Fresh Air kid? How nice. And as I get older and move to New York, I was like, hmm, I get what they were talking about there. [00:06:00] So, and those moments, too, are just kind of like, well, I never really remembered exactly what someone said, but I remembered how exactly I felt. I remember sort of someone tightening up and tensing up or kind of feeling uncomfortable and kind of looking up and going, like, why, why is this happening right now?

Or people trying to touch my hair, you know? I mean it's so interesting. It's like this intersection of everything was normal and everything was so not normal. That the abnormal sort of became normal, and you kind of tackled what you could with what you had.

As I've grown a little bit more tuned into this stuff and smarter about what I need in terms of my healthy identity, I tend to ask for more. And don't always get it from my family. I don't always get it, but I have also come to realize that they're giving me what they can. And that foundation of love really is above and beyond any bits of cultural and racial identity that they could have given me. So it's a kind of a delicate balance, right? [00:07:00]

It's a delicate balance because I talk to families all the time, like, oh, you really have to do better. And at the same time, I kind of give my parents a break. So it's a delicate balance, you know?

Haley Radke: Well, I can't imagine. I mean, I get that delicate balance. And what I'm thinking back to is the episode of your podcast where you interviewed your father. And I don't really remember exactly what question you asked him, but I remember when he answered, I sort of gasped because I was like, wait, we're not supposed to be colorblind. And his answer sort of indicated that we don't really see racial differences.

I don't know. That sort of seemed like what he was saying and I was so curious how that made you feel, because you did kind of explain to him like, Well, we don't really do that anymore, dad, kind of thing. [00:08:00] Um, it was much more eloquent than that.

April Dinwoodie: I don't know. Not so sure. I didn't feel eloquent in the moment. It felt two things. I felt, one, there were a couple times in those podcasts, if I'm completely honest, where I was like, okay, that's gonna get edited. And I have the benefit and blessing to work with an amazing producer who is a dear friend of mine, a long-time friend, and he's like, Nope, not gonna happen.

Like, you invite people to the table, you've got to let them have their experiences. And that's, again, why it's so instructive to prep for those conversations and have those conversations. But, man, is it really hard because what you realize is that it isn't just about you, it isn't all about you.

Other people have experiences and sort of juxtaposed with what my father was saying about this idea, this quite well-intended, I think, but really Ill-informed on some level idea of being colorblind is what I learned [00:09:00] about his upbringing that I didn't know before. And the things I know about his upbringing are not easy things.

There was a lot of disconnect in his nuclear family in terms of relationship and especially to his parents. That got really challenging in my preteen years into my teens and early adulthood. So, you know, there's this thing where, yeah, I kind of was like, yeah, that's not how it works really.

But there was also this really beautiful place of love and understanding and forgiveness that I was able to, I think, put forth, and I think he as well. But there's going to be a space where that's just not his experience. I mean, the closest thing that I can sort of come to is the period of time, and this is me making sense of it. [00:10:00]

I don't know that my parents would actually agree with this, but this is how I see it when they were first married and didn't get pregnant for several years. I think there was a feeling of being “less than,” feeling outside of the group and just feeling like what's wrong with me?

And, you know, there's a thread of that in being a minority, right? There's something that can be looked at in a way to say, okay, well that's kind of how sometimes it can feel and to be a person of color in a white environment or just to be brown in the world, period.

So, I try to find those threads and, then also, the biggest question of all is, how am I gonna take a man who is in his seventies who has never really had to be outside of his place in the world, [00:11:00] which is white and privileged, where is he to find these tools? There's also reality, right? And at some point you kind of stop fighting against that in a way, at least I do from a certain perspective because there's so much that I do get.

So I would say it's actually a tight rope walk versus delicate balance, right? But it's one that I'm willing to walk, you know, one that I wanna walk and one I wanna keep trying to figure out how to manage because my survival depends on it. Like my healthy identity today depends on how I process that and how much I push and how hard and what type of risks I'm willing to take.

Haley Radke: Can you go back to that idea of white privilege? So I'm not transracially adopted, I don't have that experience, but what I've heard from some other adoptees is that, [00:12:00] growing up they are a different color than their white parents but when they're with their white family, they are treated as though they are white.

And then if they're apart from them or once they become an adult, then people just see skin color and they're treated differently. You alluded to that a little bit with your childhood and being the Fresh Air kid, but can you speak to that a little bit more?

April Dinwoodie: So there was a sense of belonging that I found and I felt like people were quite proud of themselves when they did welcome me. It's very interesting, right? I could see now when I look back, there was a thing where people felt good about welcoming me and that that could have had to do with the type of person I was, too. And I'm sure it did have something to do with that, but I also think there was this like, oh wow, like, this is really cool.

[00:13:00] You know, like there was this sort of novelty to it, especially in my town. But separate and apart from them, for sure, there was the belief that, especially people who, which was rare, but it did happen in our small town that didn't know me and didn't really get the joke that, oh, wait a second, she does belong in this family, or she does belong here.

And there were many different ways, I think, of not believing that I really did have a family here. You know, there were a couple kids at school who were like, no way, that can't be true. And down to what's so important to note here is that, and I didn't realize this until my universe expanded and I met other transracially adopted people, mostly men who had darker skin than I did.

Right? Clearly, my experience growing up where I grew up would have been very different if I was a dark-skinned black boy. [00:14:00] While things did shift for me, going from the cute little girl with the fuzzy hair to like the sort of awkward teen to the high-schooler who was popular and had friends, but you know, had a hard time, really, dating and things of that nature.

Yes, there were racial slurs and all of these things that happened, but I think it paled in comparison to having my light skin and my sort of in-between hair that really kind of created definitely a safety net in a way for me that didn't exist, wouldn't have existed had I been a dark-skinned black boy.

And I recognize that full on eyes wide open. And I have no [00:15:00] issue talking about this. There's a certain level of privilege in my family and being white and from New England and all that, but then there's like the layers of privilege that come with skin tone. And good hair. You know? I mean, it's gotten good. It hasn't always been good. I'm gonna be honest.

Haley Radke: You know, I'm laughing, I just listened to your most recent episode of your podcast, so people will have to go and listen to that to hear the inside joke about an ex-boyfriend commenting on your hair.

April Dinwoodie: Mm. We've gone there. It's been a long road, but we've gotten there.

Haley Radke: Well, that's another thing I see in adoptive parent groups more recently, just knowing how to do that when it's transracial and it's different and it's stuff that probably they don't think of when they're setting out to adopt, I guess. Um, anyway, I don't want to speak for adoptive parents.

April Dinwoodie: [00:16:00] Well, I can speak for some just because I work with a lot of white transracial parents who are adopting transracially and I think they're thinking about it more than ever before out of sheer urgency. Right? And my workshop has gone from 20 years ago being what my white parents didn't know and why it turned out okay anyway to the urgency of seeing color and adoption in foster care. Like a dramatic shift.

Now the content's the same, you know, to a point. But there's a lot more real talk and it's not as cute and cuddly, it wasn't even cute and cuddly when it was, it was just a catchy title. But at the end of the day, the spirit and the tenor and the tone of these conversations has shifted, and I think it's important to acknowledge that because I feel like physical and emotional safety today, creating that for kids of color regardless of whether they're being adopted [00:17:00] by white parents or not is something that, um.

Funny, I was invited to go back to my hometown and speak to our local women's group that's very politically engaged and the whole idea was that we would talk about tough conversations and race class and culture differences. And I just basically gave the same talk I would give to parents who were adopting potentially black and brown kids and they were white, because I feel like everything I talk about is like what everybody needs to be doing anyway.

It's kind of interesting that it comes to that. So. We were saying this so clearly from that point of view, but I feel like all the content in there is like really for everybody.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's right. And your podcast, I know we'll talk about it again later, but you just changed your tagline to “What Adoption can Teach the World” and I think there's a piece of that thread there. [00:18:00]

Okay. Can you talk a little bit about going into your adult years and what is it like to understand that you're biracial? And, please correct me if I am misspeaking, I want to be really sensitive and I feel like I don't know all the right lingo. So can you speak to that a little bit? Finding out that you are biracial, if you had a conversation ever with your parents about that and just living in this world that way?

April Dinwoodie: There was a sense that from the non-identifying information that I received during the early stages of my search, it was clear that my birth mother was white and therefore based on the obviousness of my genetics and how I looked, I clearly had a dad that was a person of color.

So I just always believed, and I used to tell [00:19:00] people, that Harry Belafonte and Elizabeth Montgomery from Bewitched were my parents and they were too busy in Hollywood to take care of me so that's why I wound up in, I mean, that all made sense to me at that point.

And it was a great story to tell. Of course, the reality of life took its course. And I really kind of was settled into the fact that, above all, I started saying that I was a person of color, like, a long time ago. If someone pressed me, I would say, well, yeah, I'm biracial, but it's kind of obvious, I'm still brown.

Like, there's nothing that can be taken away from that. So it's kind of like that is true, this idea of being multiracial or biracial, but at the same time I'm brown, period, the end. I'm not white. [00:20:00] And so I think that isn't a conversation I've necessarily had with my family, but I feel like I've claimed it in other ways.

Moving to Harlem, you know, identifying with different pieces of entertainment and entertainers and music and things like that. And now my parents weren't like just, you know, sitting, listening to, I mean, certainly we did listen to John Denver and we listened to Fleetwood Mac and all of this, but there was also plenty of Nat King Cole in the house and Stevie Wonder.

My family is pretty open and almost like the non-culture family. Like there's not one culture that we just wildly celebrate. It's kind of like we're all over the map, which is partly why I feel like there was a lot of space for me.

But at the same time, you know, I just kind of went after it, you know, I did my own kind of personal investigation and finding my space. [00:21:00] Would I have liked more help and guidance with that? Absolutely. Was it something my parents were up for? No, I mean, just, no. They were trying to raise a family and survive.

I mean, I didn't really see that and it doesn't, you know, again, it doesn't make them bad parents. It's just a reality that I now can understand and appreciate it on some level. It doesn't make it any less easy to think about the times when I was truly embarrassed about looking the way I did and my hair being the way it was. It doesn't take any of that away.

But it sort of calibrates it to some degree that allows me to kind of use my experiences to help share with other people that might be interested. So, I mean, today it's different. I mean, my mom says this a lot. She's like, I just thought, gosh, when we adopted you, it wasn't symbolic of racial justice or equality or anything like that.

[00:22:00] That wasn't the point. But her idea was that things were moving in a different direction. And as we sit where we are in 2018, it doesn't feel like that's the case, right? So it feels like actually harder to be adopting a kid transracially than it was when I was being adopted. There's just a lot more to contend with and there's a lot more expectation. Right?

There's just a lot more out there. I mean, we're, we're talking right now. This didn't exist. No one was having this kind of conversation. So a parent now, they can run, but they can't hide. Right? Like, this is coming for you. All this stuff's coming for you. The adoption stuff, the racial identity stuff, the relationship stuff, the inequities of class, the, some call and they wouldn't be wrong, a marketplace of adoption. So this is not swept under the rug anymore.

[00:23:00] We have to deal with it. And a lot of times, I see it happening and it's so interesting. Like I see people like us having conversations and kind of putting it out there. But I also see young people. I may go into schools and have my little affinity groups with young people, and man, they are not messing around.

So we're pushing up big time and it's not just us. It's the next, the future generations that are turned on and plugged into this and they're saying, hey, mom and dad, what about that birth parent, what about my birth mom? Is that her name? What was her name and where is she?

Like it's happening. Like there's just no two ways about it. So it's a lot harder than it was, I think, when I was being adopted.

Haley Radke: Did you ever have any pushback from anyone even in your extended family when you were sort [00:24:00] of more interested in exploring this and, like you said, you moved to Harlem and were more interested in exploring these other aspects of yourself?

April Dinwoodie: No, um, never that, I mean, uh, no. You know, I remember the first apartment I lived in Harlem, and it was not a super safe spot. But my family just came, like, we're coming, you know, and my nieces and nephews, they let my nieces and nephews come without them.

Like I remember taking my nieces to the African hair braiding spot and they were the only two white girls in there. And I think they trusted me enough and they loved me enough and wanted to be in that space. There was never any pushback there. Where the pushback has come has been, you know, I think there's been an awakening of sorts for me in terms of feeling confident [00:25:00] to vocalize certain things or to say, Hey, yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

And I think with all of the swirl of the NFL Colin Kaepernick taking a knee. I mean, there have been conflicts around that. And, you know, the way that I think we've decided to deal with that is to sort of not deal with it, right? Because I read this article, I think it was in Modern Love, it was a while ago, and it was this gentleman who had found his biological sister and she lived in Florida.

He lived in the north, and they were very politically opposed. And he basically was like, I just found her. There's just no way. I don't care if she's the worst diehard Republican ever. There's no way I'm giving up that love. So I find myself in an interesting sort of predicament on some level.

One, it's not that dramatic that there is massive conflict and we can't be in the same room together. It's not that at all. Just a difference of an understanding of something that's [00:26:00] happening that we choose not to talk about anymore, because it just isn't a healthy or helpful dialogue to have.

So I find that I have to create space for that kind of conversation elsewhere, and I do. It doesn't mean that it feels good to not be able to have it in the space where I really should be able to be exactly 100% myself. But you know what, this happens across any type of family structure and system.

So is it more pronounced in families formed and expanded by adoption where there's differences of race and other things? Sure. But I don't think it's unlike other situations where we gotta put plastic forks and knives around the Thanksgiving Day table because you know it's gonna get heated.

I mean, I think that's a baseline right now. And I feel like we've at least figured out how to see past it, through it. And I have, you know, those other conversations [00:27:00] elsewhere and I've created that space that I've had to, and I don't have a choice.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I think that'll be really helpful for people to hear, you know, that they're not alone in that. It's kind of this thing where it's so important, you really do feel like it's necessary to talk about, but at what cost?

April Dinwoodie: I mean, this is really the real kicker, right? It's a real challenge. It's like, how do you make sure that you are able to live your true self and identity and you know there are risks involved, right? Again, I believe that's true throughout the entire spectrum of the family experience.

I just think this is why this idea of adoption teaching the world is kind of the empowered place I've arrived at [00:28:00] because I don't know any people that are better equipped than adopted people and people who are in the extended family of adoption. Birth parents, adoptive parents, siblings, the whole matrix. There are tons of challenges, but there's an awful lot of solid reflection, real tough working and deconstructing of identity and family and all of that.

And I think it's useful, and I can say that now in my forties and feeling pretty settled, but I just want our experiences to be instructive for not just other people who may share the experience, but for other people who have no idea about this experience, but have felt outta place in their family or, you know, there was a disconnect, there was a divorce or remarriage.

I mean, [00:29:00] my parents split up when I was in second grade and we didn't see my grandparents again for many, many years. So these separations and these really hard family situations are just not unique to adoption. However, we know from research and lived experience today that adoption is kind of the thing that we know more about, right?

And why not use that information and our experiences to, one, heal ourselves and be whole and be as engaged and plugged in as we can be. And then, take a stand and be empowered and be like, I know something you don't know, or I know something and I can help you maybe. Or at least I can validate your feelings of belonging or not feeling like you belong or identity.

I don't know, it's just time to sort of flip it a little bit, you know. That flip-the-script thing has been around and it's just a beautiful thing and it's ushered in, I think, some of these empowered feelings, but I think it's all going to the next level.

Haley Radke: [00:30:00] I love that that sense of empowerment coming from that place is so much more effective than some of what I see is people who are powered by rage or hurt, you know?

April Dinwoodie: Yeah, that's real.

Haley Radke: It is. That fuel only lasts for so long and it's only one direction. I think there's a lot of wisdom to what you're saying there.

April Dinwoodie: When I look at my experiences, the challenges I've had just sort of pale in comparison to some of the perspectives I have gotten from the people I'm close to. Either young people who have aged out, had adoptions disrupted, have abuse, neglect, trauma that is unimaginable to adopted people that I know that were adopted at birth and had trauma. That's unspeakable all.

[00:31:00] I mean, there’s all this perspective that happens, but I just think I had a pretty damn lovely life growing up, right? We didn't have a lot, but we had this container of love and real openness. And just this welcoming sense of my family is very unique and it's amazing. And anybody who knows my family who has spent time in Rhode Island would vouch for that, right?

If I had imagined. I did fine in school. I wasn't a super great student, but I wasn't a bad student and I made it through college. I did well, and I've had a fair amount of personal professional success, whatever you wanna say. But I just think like, gosh, what if I had sort of gotten those additional layers of what I needed for my healthy identity? Or what if I didn't get rejected the second time by my birth mother? [00:32:00]

So the whole idea of even talking, saying those things at the risk of making my family feel like they weren't enough, which they were, I think, okay, parents today, like double, triple down. What makes you uncomfortable? Go deeper with that. Go figure out what happened in your childhood that makes it impossible for you to go there with your kid. Just go deeper. Because if you go deeper, you are like what you can present as a pathway for your kid is, like, unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

Haley Radke: That is so true. And I have a lot of, you probably get this quite a bit too, I have a lot of adoptive parents emailing me, asking for advice, and the thing I really want to say to most of them, I can't because it sounds snippy, but it's: Work on your own stuff first.

April Dinwoodie: [00:33:00] Look, it's not snippy. I go to a lot of conferences, right? And I see a lot of amazing professionals that stand up often. And it's kind of the same stuff. Now, this is no knock against some of the people I've seen and some of the amazing practitioners out there, and professionals love, love, love, right?

But it's oftentimes like the adults putting upon a young person, how are we going to help them with their healthy identity development? And not once do I hear, I mean, not once yet. I'm sure it has happened and maybe I missed it. I doubt it. But a parent going, like, I had to work on myself first in my trauma, before I could help my kid with their trauma.

Like it's something that we place on the shoulders of children as if it's something for them to figure out versus us guiding them. And again, there's amazing practitioners out there, but it's like the spirit of how it's presented in frame sometimes is kind of like nothing to see here. We gotta just take care of this kid.

[00:34:00] And the truth is, you gotta take care of yourself. Your little self, your big self, your middle-sized self, your grown self. And you gotta keep working at that in order to be helpful to your kid. And, again, just take this with a grain of salt from the woman who doesn't have any kids, right?

So it's all well and good, but I do believe that, and that's maybe why I haven't had kids at this point, I don't know, or one of the reasons, there are probably many, but you know, that it's such a serious and such a monumental idea that I don't think anybody should even consider it without, like, I think there should be a home study for anybody who's gonna have a kid biologically or not. I just think there should be, period. A really good one, like the best home study ever.

That's really hard. And it's not about resources, it's about, you know, identity and spirit and talking with your partner about how you'll discipline, you know, like all [00:35:00] these things. I mean, it kind of feels like a little bit of utopia or like I'm wishing for things that are just out of touch.

I don't know, like in looking at where kids have really thrived that I've known and where kids are struggling, it would've been a really big deal if the parents of these kids had had a lot more sort of preparation and thought, adopted or not.

Haley Radke: Yep. I am a mom to two small boys and I think, how did this happen? And I mean, I know how it happened, but I'm not qualified for this. The only adoptee issues they are gonna have are the ones I pass on because of me and my stuff, which I'm always working on. So, I don't know if you're gonna have an answer for this, but would you advise white parents to adopt transracially? [00:36:00]

April Dinwoodie: So I've seen a lot of examples of parents who really get it and are determined to do everything in their power. One, like the beautiful thing is admitting that they're just never gonna truly get it if they're not a person of color, if they've never been adopted. I mean, let's add in that too.

If you don't have the experience of being adopted, it's really hard for you to know what that's like. So I think we have to sort of start there. I don't think there's ever gonna be a really seamless way to sort of bring that experience to life for someone who just doesn't have that experience. I mean, that could be anything, right?

[00:37:00] So that's the first thing. But the most badass parents I know are first admitting that. No, first, full stop. They're like I get that I'm not gonna get it, right? But that doesn't mean I'm not gonna do everything in my power to get it.

It doesn't mean I'm not gonna pipe up when someone in my workplace says something inappropriate. It's not like it's gonna stop me from marching into the school and making sure that my kid isn't being inappropriately disciplined. There's like a kind of stand-up parent and sets of parents that I know that stop at nothing to make sure that their kid is physically and emotionally safe.

So I've seen it work and I'm witnessing it work, and certainly I feel like I'm a product of parents where it worked, right? Like, I have no psychotic issues. I'm walking the earth every day and I'm doing good in the world. There’s still pain and hurt to be healed, but they did a damn good job with the resources they had. So I don't believe in this idea of it not happening. [00:38:00]

I do believe in, first and foremost, making sure that, one, family of origin is explored to the nth-degree to make sure a child can stay within their family of origin. That's just in any given situation. I think especially so when there's race and culture, elements to be considered. But as we all know, I also feel like an adoption or a permanent situation for a child or person should not be impeded on the basis of any type of qualifier, right?

If there is willing, appropriate family based on a home study and based on all the legal constructs that exist, some are more loose than others, when you get into private adoption. But I would just say that if we are not being extra, extra mindful and challenging every possible nook and cranny of that experience.

[00:39:00] Like, I hear all the time, oh, well, you know, we'll do all this stuff. We'll go to this and we'll go to that. And I said, I think you need to make sure that you actually don't let the first time you hear the N-word be when your kid comes home from school.

Like, you gotta read some books, you gotta watch some historic programming. You've gotta have black friends. Somebody asked me, oh, how will I learn how to do my kid’s hair? I'm like, well, ask your black friends. They're like, uh, we don't have black friends. Well, there's your first problem.

So, you know, there's a continuum of like plugged-in parents. There are ones that really wanna be plugged in but are clueless, and you gotta take them by the hand. And there are some that, quite frankly, just don't feel like it's an issue at all and are putting their kids in danger.

I mean, so across the board, all these things are at play, and professionals are really the ones in charge right now of ensuring that these things don't go under, under-explored, under-appreciated, under-discussed. [00:40:00] The professionals are in charge of that.

Haley Radke: That's a pretty good answer. All right. Okay. Let's shift. You recently had a change. I saw an announcement in January that the Donaldson Institute was coming to a close. So you were the chief executive there. Can you speak a little bit about what's happened? And, you know, what I saw on Facebook was a lot of grief. People were very, very sad that Donaldson was closing.

April Dinwoodie: Mm-hmm, there was definitely a lot of grief. I mean, look, it's definitely been a tough year. Plus it hasn't been an easy time all the way through. I mean I've enjoyed the work; I've learned so much. I've been so inspired, empowered. [00:41:00] I've also felt like I got my butt kicked more than once.

And I underestimated, really, the challenge of being in this work 24/7. I mean, when I was in corporate, I could take a day off from being adopted. When I was working at Donaldson, I couldn't, and that I underestimated all that.

And plus I underestimated the lack of solidarity and community that existed in our space. I didn't expect that even though I'd been doing conferences and work in this space for a long time before taking the position, it was really kind of shocking to me. And it still does shock me when there's all of that kind of like real swirl of not so nice stuff that happens as we've all seen and experienced.

Sometimes things just run their course. I mean, of course, I feel there were times where I'm like, oh my gosh, I let everybody down. I mean, look, there's a board of directors, there's an executive director, chief executive, and there are donors, and this is all everybody's, these nonprofits are everybody's, right? They're not just, they don't belong to one person. [00:42:00]

I think it becomes that, and I think the Institute had become that over time. It felt as though it was one person, but it was really a collective, and I just feel like what people will never know. They'll know some of the things you can look at. You can look at financials, everything's an open book in the land of nonprofit. You can look at our track record and the leadership that came before me and my leadership to say that good work has been done.

But what people won't see are some of the shifts, the personal shifts and the relationships that have been built over time that I honor and their work will continue. You know, it was really important to me to have the work archived and it will be archived and it will be accessible.

First of all, I'm with you, I'm with everybody who feels badly, you know, and those who are angry. I mean, there's all kinds of emotion attached to this because I do feel like it was an organization that really needed to be [00:43:00], but like there's only so much we can do to sort of move things in a forward direction from a financial standpoint. You know, that's just the bottom line.

And we needed a lot more robust fundraising. We needed just more engagement overall. I think there was a misconception about the Institute for a long time that we just had like a big pile of cash and we just really never did. I mean, there was definitely funding there, but we were not an endowed organization and we relied heavily on donations and our one fundraiser a year.

So there's a lot of complexity to it. I did my best to lead, you know, with grace and integrity and the honor of what I think the community needed, but at the same time, there were changes that needed to happen and there was a vision that was yet to be realized. And, you know, there was a time that came where it just wasn't sustainable anymore. [00:44:44]

And, again, I think the thing that I am most proud of, the thing that people won't ever see, are some of the massive shifts that I've seen people connected to this Institute make on behalf of themselves, their family. And those relationships will endure, you know, well beyond, the Institute, and the work will be there too.

So, I do appreciate everybody's good wishes. And for those who can even identify a little bit, who've done this work, it's so emotional, right? There's such a passion for it. There's such a gravitational pull to doing this work that, when it was ending, it was like, oh my gosh, I can't even believe it.

But at the same time, oddly hopeful because maybe there's a new direction, a new path for things to take and maybe one that was necessary.

Haley Radke: [00:45:00] So that's my next question for you, actually. April, before we do recommended resources, last question. What do you see going forward in the advocacy for adopted people? Really specifically, that's my audience. What do you see for the future, for yourself and for the adoptee movement?

April Dinwoodie: There's been such an energy and a passion from the community of adopted people to make change and to have the voices being heard. I mean, it's just been remarkable to see all of that kind of taking shape. You know, what I realize is that there really have to be more adopted people in positions of leadership. And I would say a lot of that has to do with politics and policy.

And I think there was a point in time where I really questioned whether I should go from for-profit to non-profit. And one of the things that I do realize is that having a position of power in a corporation is that where there's a lot of money and power, [00:46:00] there is influence in that. And so I want adopted people to know that there's a place for them, you know, across the continuum of professional and volunteer and advocacy space.

But, just as the same way I feel about women and people of color, I think adopted people, as a group and as a people to be seen, need to really be in positions of power and influence and then use those positions of power and influence to further what we need as a community, but also, again, for a larger idea of what families really need and what children need and building healthy identity. Does that make sense?

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. We are gonna move to recommended resources, and I had to laugh because we're gonna recommend the same thing and that's okay. It's totally fine because this is a must listen. [00:47:00] April's podcast is called, Born in June, Raised in April, and I have recommended it on the show before.

I wanna hear from you what your great desire for your show was when you created it, and can you tell us a little bit about what you sort of started doing and the shift that you've made recently? So, I'd love for you to just explore that a little bit.

April Dinwoodie: Sure. Well, it sort of wasn't my idea actually. I had been doing a lot of writing and I had come to claim this idea of my birth name being June, which I found out through lots of different layers of my search, and my adoptive parents naming me April, both giving me the name Elizabeth, and being born in October.

So this idea of adoption throughout the year kind of inspired me to think more about what happens in the course of a year, month by month. [00:48:00] that is instructive and maybe even interesting or less explored areas of adoption.

For me, it was kind of like when my friend Josh was like, hey, let's do a podcast. Actually, no. It was actually my biological cousin who is the one who had the idea for the podcast. I have to give her credit for that. And she said, you really should do a podcast. It could be a thing for you. It'd really be great.

And then of course I talked to my friend Josh, and he was like, I'm in, let's do it. And so, all that to say that people outside of adoption kind of look at you and go, adoption? What? I don't know. Who cares? That doesn't impact me.

But, you know, family relationships, identity, the struggle for belonging. This idea of health and imperfect parenting and all these things are something everybody can identify with. In a way, the calendar was so inspiring to me because if we don't celebrate these things or we don't even acknowledge them, you kind of know they're happening [00:49:00] regardless of religion or whatever affiliation you have to tradition throughout the year, you kind of know.

You know, Valentine's month, you sorta know that it's Christmas. You know these big monumental things end up being devices to have conversations that I just sometimes feel that especially the adoptive parents aren't really recognizing. So, you know, when I talk about Thanksgiving and having a lot of extra people in your home who may not have your same value system or even the same language, and how they talk about things and how they look at the world, you gotta make some space for your kid.

Like you gotta just make sure or say, hey, if you don't wanna sit around the table for dessert, you don't have to, honey. Or, let me take you out for a walk, you know, for a little while. Like, just to be tuned in to some of these. That's just one example.

[00:50:00] So the podcast has just been like a way to look at adoption throughout the year and the recent shift that we made was, you know, there's a lot to learn. And from this empowered standpoint, it's like adoption can really teach people a lot of things. And then we have this space, I'm looking forward down the road to having the tougher conversations about money and looking at why adoption happens in the first place.

And so talking politically, religiously about some of these things and to do it in a balanced way, right? And, and to not be so that people have the ability to turn off and turn away. I would much rather create space to have the open dialogue so that we can manage it, you know? A little bit better than we have.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. So I've seen a real evolution of your show, right? Your first year or even longer, the episodes were just you and very brief and, as you said, the theme of each month, [00:51:00] whatever that may be, Mother's Day or Christmas, as you said. They were about 15 minutes, some very short episodes.

And then you've gone on to interview friends and colleagues. And the episodes I would recommend that people go listen to right away are when you are interviewing your mom in one month and then your dad and another. Those were so powerful.

And what a beautiful thing for you to open that up to us, that we can have a peek in at such an intimate relationship.

April Dinwoodie: Well, I mean, I think the thing too is like, uh, maybe I've mentioned but it has been, I don't know what I was thinking half the time. I'm like, did I really just do that? Like did I really ask that question? I mean, there's so much love there, but I'm also, like, I have to be so vulnerable, you know? [00:52:00] And I have to be like, it's their experience to have, you know. So I've learned so much about myself and about my journey of adoption through other people and interviewing them and having these conversations.

So it's sort of odd to recommend my own thing, but I don't know that there has been something else that has really brought me a really deep and new understanding about this experience and how it might be helpful to other people. I don't know.

Haley Radke: Of course as a fellow podcaster, I agree. I agree. And I have grown so much in the last couple of years of doing my show as well, and, you know, I'm interviewing people about their experiences and the whole time they're talking, I'm just like, oh yeah, oh yeah, I totally get that. Oh yeah, right, right. And then I'm also taking notes. Like, well, [00:53:00] I guess I need to bring these points to my therapist. Perfect. Okay. Oh, so good.

April Dinwoodie: Lots to talk about.

Haley Radke: Yes.

April Dinwoodie: And lots to connect on and, but, man, I just, you know, this space that you create, Haley, it's time, right? It's time. And it is empowering and that's kind of what I want it to be. I mean, look, everybody has their own true life experiences and challenges, but we've got a lot to share and a lot to talk about. So to be able to have that space is pretty remarkable.

Haley Radke: Yes, it is. It's so good. Thank you so much, April. Would you tell us where we can connect with you online?

Facebook is June in April. Instagram is June in April. Twitter is June in April. And then I have a website, aprildinwoodie.com. So any and all of those. And then the podcast is on iTunes, Born in June, Raised in April.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. [00:54:00] It's been so good to talk with you, and I thank you so much for your insights.

April Dinwoodie: Yeah. It's a pleasure and an honor, truly. And I thank you for making the space and for all that you're doing to get these conversations out there.

Haley Radke: Okay, friend, I have an exciting announcement. My husband and I are going on vacation. I know. So exciting for you, right? But we're coming down to San Francisco in May, and so I asked Nick if he would be okay if we added one extra day so that I could do a podcast meetup.

And so I wanna tell you about that and how we can meet in person, because that is my favorite, favorite, favorite thing, to connect with you in person. I asked Ann Heffron if I could do a write-or-die class with her, meaning learn from her, not teach it with her, learn from her.

And she said yes. So Anne is going to be teaching a write-or-die class in the afternoon from two to five, and then [00:55:00] later in the evening from six to eight, we're gonna do a listener meetup. You are invited to both or either of those events. And it's going to be on Sunday, May 20, downtown San Francisco, California.

And then the listener meetup is just hanging out. Hanging out, chatting, and I know there's a couple people that I've had on the show as guests before that are considering coming too, so I'm very excited about that. I'll let you know who else is gonna be there, but if you wanna find out more details about that, I will be writing about it in my upcoming newsletter. So adopteeson.com/newsletter.

And, also, if you just go over to the Adoptees On Facebook page and click on events, there's a link there with all the details on how you can RSVP, how you can sign up for Ann's write-or-die class. I'd love to meet you if you're in the San Francisco area or if it's easy for you to come and travel there. That would be awesome. [00:56:00]

And so that's, again, Sunday, May 20. Can't wait. Can't wait to see you there. Oh, I also just wanna say a really huge thank you to all of you who have signed up to partner monthly with the show through financial pledges on Patreon. And also some of you have sent very generous one-time donations. So thank you so much.

Your support literally keeps the show going. You are helping cover all the production costs and making it possible for me to continue this podcast weekly and produce more content for you. I'm so grateful, and I also wanna say a big thank you from all the future listeners who are going to discover Adoptees On and find their community here. They will do that because of your support.

So if you think this show is valuable, if it has made an impact in your life, I would love it if you would [00:57:00] stand with me and partner in this way if you're able to. Adopteeson.com/partner has details on how to become a monthly supporter and how to join the Adoptees Only Secret Facebook Group.

And also on adopteeson.com there's a one-time donation link, if that's something that you'd like to do. Thank you.

Okay, friends, that is it for today, but I have another awesome show for you next week, so make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find all our social media links on adopteeson.com.

Let's talk again next Friday.