60 April: I've Claimed It
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/60
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 4, Episode 2, April. I'm your host Haley Radke. Today I want to invite you into a discussion about relationships with ourselves through the lens of identity and race. April Dinwoodie shares her journey with us of growing up brown in a white family, navigating relationships with her adoptive family, and how she has come to claim her own identity.
We also touch on the recent closure of the Donaldson Adoption Institute and what April sees as the way forward in the advocacy movement. We wrap up with recommended resources and, as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.
And, if [00:01:00] you're interested in hearing about a way to meet up with other Adoptees On listeners, stick around till the end of the show for a fun announcement. Let's listen in.
I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, April Dinwoodie. Welcome, April.
April Dinwoodie: Thank you. It's so good to be here, Haley. Thank you.
Haley Radke: And I love your podcast. We'll get to that later, but a fellow podcaster, so fun to have that on the show. You, too, know the power of podcasting and how it can bring us together, so I'm so, so glad to talk to you. I'd love it if you start the way we usually do here. And would you share your story with us?
April Dinwoodie: Yeah, it'd be my honor, and thank you for creating space for all of us and it's definitely been a medium that I've learned to really appreciate in many ways. So I'm grateful for it.
So, it's one of those things where [00:02:00] I always knew I was adopted, right? My family's white and I'm brown, so I don't remember a time when my parents sat me down and said, okay, April, this is, uh, this is something we need to tell you. I just always knew, not in a negative or a positive way, just that that information, on its own, was just basic, real information. Like I was adopted.
What came with that were many layers of search for identity and belonging and things that I'm now totally plugged into and know I can almost pinpoint exactly when some of those moments were happening in my younger years that I couldn't make sense of then.
So, you know, my family is one that's a typical New England family. Born and raised in New England for several generations and my parents met in 4-H, so they were really small and then were high school sweethearts and married right out of college. Excuse me, out of high school and [00:03:00] started, you know, took some space and time actually, not because they wanted it, but because of the universe and biology, it took a little while for them to get pregnant with their first child, my oldest brother.
Once they had my older brother, they had my younger, older brother 11 months later. And then three years later they had my sister. So when I hear my parents talk about that time in their life, it was just a pretty basic decision. Like, you know, we wanted another child. Ideally a girl. So my sister could have a sister.
And in that time they knew some folks who had adopted. It was just not a thing, right? Not a lot of people were doing it, but they thought, hmm, all right. Like, it might be a way to, you know, sort of round out our family, so to speak. And there you have it.
They kind of went about the process [00:04:00] and went to a foster-to-adopt agency, a children's friend and service in Rhode Island. And, you know, I tell the story when my parents got the call. They said, we have a girl. She may be biracial. Right? And they really, you know, didn't think too much about that, right? There wasn't a point in time where they, I think, really mulled over it too, too much.
And so the wheels were spinning at that point. I had already been in foster care for about seven months before I was placed with my adoptive family. So I spent a little bit of time in foster care and very little time in the hospital, from what I can tell with my birth mother, Helen. You know, this was the way that my family decided to expand their family, and they really didn't give race a whole lot of a consideration. And, you know, it became and has become for me a central theme in my identity, like, you know, figuring that stuff out.
So, I thought everybody had a brown kid at home until I went to kindergarten [00:05:00] and I was looking at brown kids and there weren't brown kids. I was like, oh, maybe they come on another day. And I was like, oh wait, it's been like a week or a month or I don't know how long, but there aren't that many brown kids. Like, okay, so that's kind of weird.
My family was just so kind of tight that I just thought my family was like everybody's family until it wasn't, you know. It was just one of those things and then it still was just my family, until it wasn't. Like when someone would make reference to me.
And it happened more often than I care to really admit, but people used to think I was a Fresh Air kid, which, for people who don't know, the Fresh Air Fund is a program where inner-city kids, usually black or brown, go to the suburbs, usually white and spend the summer. So that had happened to me and, and I'm like, fresh air. Of course. Yeah. I love fresh air. It's the best.
Because people would say, is she a Fresh Air kid? How nice. And as I get older and move to New York, I was like, hmm, I get what they were talking about there. [00:06:00] So, and those moments, too, are just kind of like, well, I never really remembered exactly what someone said, but I remembered how exactly I felt. I remember sort of someone tightening up and tensing up or kind of feeling uncomfortable and kind of looking up and going, like, why, why is this happening right now?
Or people trying to touch my hair, you know? I mean it's so interesting. It's like this intersection of everything was normal and everything was so not normal. That the abnormal sort of became normal, and you kind of tackled what you could with what you had.
As I've grown a little bit more tuned into this stuff and smarter about what I need in terms of my healthy identity, I tend to ask for more. And don't always get it from my family. I don't always get it, but I have also come to realize that they're giving me what they can. And that foundation of love really is above and beyond any bits of cultural and racial identity that they could have given me. So it's a kind of a delicate balance, right? [00:07:00]
It's a delicate balance because I talk to families all the time, like, oh, you really have to do better. And at the same time, I kind of give my parents a break. So it's a delicate balance, you know?
Haley Radke: Well, I can't imagine. I mean, I get that delicate balance. And what I'm thinking back to is the episode of your podcast where you interviewed your father. And I don't really remember exactly what question you asked him, but I remember when he answered, I sort of gasped because I was like, wait, we're not supposed to be colorblind. And his answer sort of indicated that we don't really see racial differences.
I don't know. That sort of seemed like what he was saying and I was so curious how that made you feel, because you did kind of explain to him like, Well, we don't really do that anymore, dad, kind of thing. [00:08:00] Um, it was much more eloquent than that.
April Dinwoodie: I don't know. Not so sure. I didn't feel eloquent in the moment. It felt two things. I felt, one, there were a couple times in those podcasts, if I'm completely honest, where I was like, okay, that's gonna get edited. And I have the benefit and blessing to work with an amazing producer who is a dear friend of mine, a long-time friend, and he's like, Nope, not gonna happen.
Like, you invite people to the table, you've got to let them have their experiences. And that's, again, why it's so instructive to prep for those conversations and have those conversations. But, man, is it really hard because what you realize is that it isn't just about you, it isn't all about you.
Other people have experiences and sort of juxtaposed with what my father was saying about this idea, this quite well-intended, I think, but really Ill-informed on some level idea of being colorblind is what I learned [00:09:00] about his upbringing that I didn't know before. And the things I know about his upbringing are not easy things.
There was a lot of disconnect in his nuclear family in terms of relationship and especially to his parents. That got really challenging in my preteen years into my teens and early adulthood. So, you know, there's this thing where, yeah, I kind of was like, yeah, that's not how it works really.
But there was also this really beautiful place of love and understanding and forgiveness that I was able to, I think, put forth, and I think he as well. But there's going to be a space where that's just not his experience. I mean, the closest thing that I can sort of come to is the period of time, and this is me making sense of it. [00:10:00]
I don't know that my parents would actually agree with this, but this is how I see it when they were first married and didn't get pregnant for several years. I think there was a feeling of being “less than,” feeling outside of the group and just feeling like what's wrong with me?
And, you know, there's a thread of that in being a minority, right? There's something that can be looked at in a way to say, okay, well that's kind of how sometimes it can feel and to be a person of color in a white environment or just to be brown in the world, period.
So, I try to find those threads and, then also, the biggest question of all is, how am I gonna take a man who is in his seventies who has never really had to be outside of his place in the world, [00:11:00] which is white and privileged, where is he to find these tools? There's also reality, right? And at some point you kind of stop fighting against that in a way, at least I do from a certain perspective because there's so much that I do get.
So I would say it's actually a tight rope walk versus delicate balance, right? But it's one that I'm willing to walk, you know, one that I wanna walk and one I wanna keep trying to figure out how to manage because my survival depends on it. Like my healthy identity today depends on how I process that and how much I push and how hard and what type of risks I'm willing to take.
Haley Radke: Can you go back to that idea of white privilege? So I'm not transracially adopted, I don't have that experience, but what I've heard from some other adoptees is that, [00:12:00] growing up they are a different color than their white parents but when they're with their white family, they are treated as though they are white.
And then if they're apart from them or once they become an adult, then people just see skin color and they're treated differently. You alluded to that a little bit with your childhood and being the Fresh Air kid, but can you speak to that a little bit more?
April Dinwoodie: So there was a sense of belonging that I found and I felt like people were quite proud of themselves when they did welcome me. It's very interesting, right? I could see now when I look back, there was a thing where people felt good about welcoming me and that that could have had to do with the type of person I was, too. And I'm sure it did have something to do with that, but I also think there was this like, oh wow, like, this is really cool.
[00:13:00] You know, like there was this sort of novelty to it, especially in my town. But separate and apart from them, for sure, there was the belief that, especially people who, which was rare, but it did happen in our small town that didn't know me and didn't really get the joke that, oh, wait a second, she does belong in this family, or she does belong here.
And there were many different ways, I think, of not believing that I really did have a family here. You know, there were a couple kids at school who were like, no way, that can't be true. And down to what's so important to note here is that, and I didn't realize this until my universe expanded and I met other transracially adopted people, mostly men who had darker skin than I did.
Right? Clearly, my experience growing up where I grew up would have been very different if I was a dark-skinned black boy. [00:14:00] While things did shift for me, going from the cute little girl with the fuzzy hair to like the sort of awkward teen to the high-schooler who was popular and had friends, but you know, had a hard time, really, dating and things of that nature.
Yes, there were racial slurs and all of these things that happened, but I think it paled in comparison to having my light skin and my sort of in-between hair that really kind of created definitely a safety net in a way for me that didn't exist, wouldn't have existed had I been a dark-skinned black boy.
And I recognize that full on eyes wide open. And I have no [00:15:00] issue talking about this. There's a certain level of privilege in my family and being white and from New England and all that, but then there's like the layers of privilege that come with skin tone. And good hair. You know? I mean, it's gotten good. It hasn't always been good. I'm gonna be honest.
Haley Radke: You know, I'm laughing, I just listened to your most recent episode of your podcast, so people will have to go and listen to that to hear the inside joke about an ex-boyfriend commenting on your hair.
April Dinwoodie: Mm. We've gone there. It's been a long road, but we've gotten there.
Haley Radke: Well, that's another thing I see in adoptive parent groups more recently, just knowing how to do that when it's transracial and it's different and it's stuff that probably they don't think of when they're setting out to adopt, I guess. Um, anyway, I don't want to speak for adoptive parents.
April Dinwoodie: [00:16:00] Well, I can speak for some just because I work with a lot of white transracial parents who are adopting transracially and I think they're thinking about it more than ever before out of sheer urgency. Right? And my workshop has gone from 20 years ago being what my white parents didn't know and why it turned out okay anyway to the urgency of seeing color and adoption in foster care. Like a dramatic shift.
Now the content's the same, you know, to a point. But there's a lot more real talk and it's not as cute and cuddly, it wasn't even cute and cuddly when it was, it was just a catchy title. But at the end of the day, the spirit and the tenor and the tone of these conversations has shifted, and I think it's important to acknowledge that because I feel like physical and emotional safety today, creating that for kids of color regardless of whether they're being adopted [00:17:00] by white parents or not is something that, um.
Funny, I was invited to go back to my hometown and speak to our local women's group that's very politically engaged and the whole idea was that we would talk about tough conversations and race class and culture differences. And I just basically gave the same talk I would give to parents who were adopting potentially black and brown kids and they were white, because I feel like everything I talk about is like what everybody needs to be doing anyway.
It's kind of interesting that it comes to that. So. We were saying this so clearly from that point of view, but I feel like all the content in there is like really for everybody.
Haley Radke: Yeah, that's right. And your podcast, I know we'll talk about it again later, but you just changed your tagline to “What Adoption can Teach the World” and I think there's a piece of that thread there. [00:18:00]
Okay. Can you talk a little bit about going into your adult years and what is it like to understand that you're biracial? And, please correct me if I am misspeaking, I want to be really sensitive and I feel like I don't know all the right lingo. So can you speak to that a little bit? Finding out that you are biracial, if you had a conversation ever with your parents about that and just living in this world that way?
April Dinwoodie: There was a sense that from the non-identifying information that I received during the early stages of my search, it was clear that my birth mother was white and therefore based on the obviousness of my genetics and how I looked, I clearly had a dad that was a person of color.
So I just always believed, and I used to tell [00:19:00] people, that Harry Belafonte and Elizabeth Montgomery from Bewitched were my parents and they were too busy in Hollywood to take care of me so that's why I wound up in, I mean, that all made sense to me at that point.
And it was a great story to tell. Of course, the reality of life took its course. And I really kind of was settled into the fact that, above all, I started saying that I was a person of color, like, a long time ago. If someone pressed me, I would say, well, yeah, I'm biracial, but it's kind of obvious, I'm still brown.
Like, there's nothing that can be taken away from that. So it's kind of like that is true, this idea of being multiracial or biracial, but at the same time I'm brown, period, the end. I'm not white. [00:20:00] And so I think that isn't a conversation I've necessarily had with my family, but I feel like I've claimed it in other ways.
Moving to Harlem, you know, identifying with different pieces of entertainment and entertainers and music and things like that. And now my parents weren't like just, you know, sitting, listening to, I mean, certainly we did listen to John Denver and we listened to Fleetwood Mac and all of this, but there was also plenty of Nat King Cole in the house and Stevie Wonder.
My family is pretty open and almost like the non-culture family. Like there's not one culture that we just wildly celebrate. It's kind of like we're all over the map, which is partly why I feel like there was a lot of space for me.
But at the same time, you know, I just kind of went after it, you know, I did my own kind of personal investigation and finding my space. [00:21:00] Would I have liked more help and guidance with that? Absolutely. Was it something my parents were up for? No, I mean, just, no. They were trying to raise a family and survive.
I mean, I didn't really see that and it doesn't, you know, again, it doesn't make them bad parents. It's just a reality that I now can understand and appreciate it on some level. It doesn't make it any less easy to think about the times when I was truly embarrassed about looking the way I did and my hair being the way it was. It doesn't take any of that away.
But it sort of calibrates it to some degree that allows me to kind of use my experiences to help share with other people that might be interested. So, I mean, today it's different. I mean, my mom says this a lot. She's like, I just thought, gosh, when we adopted you, it wasn't symbolic of racial justice or equality or anything like that.
[00:22:00] That wasn't the point. But her idea was that things were moving in a different direction. And as we sit where we are in 2018, it doesn't feel like that's the case, right? So it feels like actually harder to be adopting a kid transracially than it was when I was being adopted. There's just a lot more to contend with and there's a lot more expectation. Right?
There's just a lot more out there. I mean, we're, we're talking right now. This didn't exist. No one was having this kind of conversation. So a parent now, they can run, but they can't hide. Right? Like, this is coming for you. All this stuff's coming for you. The adoption stuff, the racial identity stuff, the relationship stuff, the inequities of class, the, some call and they wouldn't be wrong, a marketplace of adoption. So this is not swept under the rug anymore.
[00:23:00] We have to deal with it. And a lot of times, I see it happening and it's so interesting. Like I see people like us having conversations and kind of putting it out there. But I also see young people. I may go into schools and have my little affinity groups with young people, and man, they are not messing around.
So we're pushing up big time and it's not just us. It's the next, the future generations that are turned on and plugged into this and they're saying, hey, mom and dad, what about that birth parent, what about my birth mom? Is that her name? What was her name and where is she?
Like it's happening. Like there's just no two ways about it. So it's a lot harder than it was, I think, when I was being adopted.
Haley Radke: Did you ever have any pushback from anyone even in your extended family when you were sort [00:24:00] of more interested in exploring this and, like you said, you moved to Harlem and were more interested in exploring these other aspects of yourself?
April Dinwoodie: No, um, never that, I mean, uh, no. You know, I remember the first apartment I lived in Harlem, and it was not a super safe spot. But my family just came, like, we're coming, you know, and my nieces and nephews, they let my nieces and nephews come without them.
Like I remember taking my nieces to the African hair braiding spot and they were the only two white girls in there. And I think they trusted me enough and they loved me enough and wanted to be in that space. There was never any pushback there. Where the pushback has come has been, you know, I think there's been an awakening of sorts for me in terms of feeling confident [00:25:00] to vocalize certain things or to say, Hey, yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
And I think with all of the swirl of the NFL Colin Kaepernick taking a knee. I mean, there have been conflicts around that. And, you know, the way that I think we've decided to deal with that is to sort of not deal with it, right? Because I read this article, I think it was in Modern Love, it was a while ago, and it was this gentleman who had found his biological sister and she lived in Florida.
He lived in the north, and they were very politically opposed. And he basically was like, I just found her. There's just no way. I don't care if she's the worst diehard Republican ever. There's no way I'm giving up that love. So I find myself in an interesting sort of predicament on some level.
One, it's not that dramatic that there is massive conflict and we can't be in the same room together. It's not that at all. Just a difference of an understanding of something that's [00:26:00] happening that we choose not to talk about anymore, because it just isn't a healthy or helpful dialogue to have.
So I find that I have to create space for that kind of conversation elsewhere, and I do. It doesn't mean that it feels good to not be able to have it in the space where I really should be able to be exactly 100% myself. But you know what, this happens across any type of family structure and system.
So is it more pronounced in families formed and expanded by adoption where there's differences of race and other things? Sure. But I don't think it's unlike other situations where we gotta put plastic forks and knives around the Thanksgiving Day table because you know it's gonna get heated.
I mean, I think that's a baseline right now. And I feel like we've at least figured out how to see past it, through it. And I have, you know, those other conversations [00:27:00] elsewhere and I've created that space that I've had to, and I don't have a choice.
Haley Radke: Thank you. I think that'll be really helpful for people to hear, you know, that they're not alone in that. It's kind of this thing where it's so important, you really do feel like it's necessary to talk about, but at what cost?
April Dinwoodie: I mean, this is really the real kicker, right? It's a real challenge. It's like, how do you make sure that you are able to live your true self and identity and you know there are risks involved, right? Again, I believe that's true throughout the entire spectrum of the family experience.
I just think this is why this idea of adoption teaching the world is kind of the empowered place I've arrived at [00:28:00] because I don't know any people that are better equipped than adopted people and people who are in the extended family of adoption. Birth parents, adoptive parents, siblings, the whole matrix. There are tons of challenges, but there's an awful lot of solid reflection, real tough working and deconstructing of identity and family and all of that.
And I think it's useful, and I can say that now in my forties and feeling pretty settled, but I just want our experiences to be instructive for not just other people who may share the experience, but for other people who have no idea about this experience, but have felt outta place in their family or, you know, there was a disconnect, there was a divorce or remarriage.
I mean, [00:29:00] my parents split up when I was in second grade and we didn't see my grandparents again for many, many years. So these separations and these really hard family situations are just not unique to adoption. However, we know from research and lived experience today that adoption is kind of the thing that we know more about, right?
And why not use that information and our experiences to, one, heal ourselves and be whole and be as engaged and plugged in as we can be. And then, take a stand and be empowered and be like, I know something you don't know, or I know something and I can help you maybe. Or at least I can validate your feelings of belonging or not feeling like you belong or identity.
I don't know, it's just time to sort of flip it a little bit, you know. That flip-the-script thing has been around and it's just a beautiful thing and it's ushered in, I think, some of these empowered feelings, but I think it's all going to the next level.
Haley Radke: [00:30:00] I love that that sense of empowerment coming from that place is so much more effective than some of what I see is people who are powered by rage or hurt, you know?
April Dinwoodie: Yeah, that's real.
Haley Radke: It is. That fuel only lasts for so long and it's only one direction. I think there's a lot of wisdom to what you're saying there.
April Dinwoodie: When I look at my experiences, the challenges I've had just sort of pale in comparison to some of the perspectives I have gotten from the people I'm close to. Either young people who have aged out, had adoptions disrupted, have abuse, neglect, trauma that is unimaginable to adopted people that I know that were adopted at birth and had trauma. That's unspeakable all.
[00:31:00] I mean, there’s all this perspective that happens, but I just think I had a pretty damn lovely life growing up, right? We didn't have a lot, but we had this container of love and real openness. And just this welcoming sense of my family is very unique and it's amazing. And anybody who knows my family who has spent time in Rhode Island would vouch for that, right?
If I had imagined. I did fine in school. I wasn't a super great student, but I wasn't a bad student and I made it through college. I did well, and I've had a fair amount of personal professional success, whatever you wanna say. But I just think like, gosh, what if I had sort of gotten those additional layers of what I needed for my healthy identity? Or what if I didn't get rejected the second time by my birth mother? [00:32:00]
So the whole idea of even talking, saying those things at the risk of making my family feel like they weren't enough, which they were, I think, okay, parents today, like double, triple down. What makes you uncomfortable? Go deeper with that. Go figure out what happened in your childhood that makes it impossible for you to go there with your kid. Just go deeper. Because if you go deeper, you are like what you can present as a pathway for your kid is, like, unbelievable. It's unbelievable.
Haley Radke: That is so true. And I have a lot of, you probably get this quite a bit too, I have a lot of adoptive parents emailing me, asking for advice, and the thing I really want to say to most of them, I can't because it sounds snippy, but it's: Work on your own stuff first.
April Dinwoodie: [00:33:00] Look, it's not snippy. I go to a lot of conferences, right? And I see a lot of amazing professionals that stand up often. And it's kind of the same stuff. Now, this is no knock against some of the people I've seen and some of the amazing practitioners out there, and professionals love, love, love, right?
But it's oftentimes like the adults putting upon a young person, how are we going to help them with their healthy identity development? And not once do I hear, I mean, not once yet. I'm sure it has happened and maybe I missed it. I doubt it. But a parent going, like, I had to work on myself first in my trauma, before I could help my kid with their trauma.
Like it's something that we place on the shoulders of children as if it's something for them to figure out versus us guiding them. And again, there's amazing practitioners out there, but it's like the spirit of how it's presented in frame sometimes is kind of like nothing to see here. We gotta just take care of this kid.
[00:34:00] And the truth is, you gotta take care of yourself. Your little self, your big self, your middle-sized self, your grown self. And you gotta keep working at that in order to be helpful to your kid. And, again, just take this with a grain of salt from the woman who doesn't have any kids, right?
So it's all well and good, but I do believe that, and that's maybe why I haven't had kids at this point, I don't know, or one of the reasons, there are probably many, but you know, that it's such a serious and such a monumental idea that I don't think anybody should even consider it without, like, I think there should be a home study for anybody who's gonna have a kid biologically or not. I just think there should be, period. A really good one, like the best home study ever.
That's really hard. And it's not about resources, it's about, you know, identity and spirit and talking with your partner about how you'll discipline, you know, like all [00:35:00] these things. I mean, it kind of feels like a little bit of utopia or like I'm wishing for things that are just out of touch.
I don't know, like in looking at where kids have really thrived that I've known and where kids are struggling, it would've been a really big deal if the parents of these kids had had a lot more sort of preparation and thought, adopted or not.
Haley Radke: Yep. I am a mom to two small boys and I think, how did this happen? And I mean, I know how it happened, but I'm not qualified for this. The only adoptee issues they are gonna have are the ones I pass on because of me and my stuff, which I'm always working on. So, I don't know if you're gonna have an answer for this, but would you advise white parents to adopt transracially? [00:36:00]
April Dinwoodie: So I've seen a lot of examples of parents who really get it and are determined to do everything in their power. One, like the beautiful thing is admitting that they're just never gonna truly get it if they're not a person of color, if they've never been adopted. I mean, let's add in that too.
If you don't have the experience of being adopted, it's really hard for you to know what that's like. So I think we have to sort of start there. I don't think there's ever gonna be a really seamless way to sort of bring that experience to life for someone who just doesn't have that experience. I mean, that could be anything, right?
[00:37:00] So that's the first thing. But the most badass parents I know are first admitting that. No, first, full stop. They're like I get that I'm not gonna get it, right? But that doesn't mean I'm not gonna do everything in my power to get it.
It doesn't mean I'm not gonna pipe up when someone in my workplace says something inappropriate. It's not like it's gonna stop me from marching into the school and making sure that my kid isn't being inappropriately disciplined. There's like a kind of stand-up parent and sets of parents that I know that stop at nothing to make sure that their kid is physically and emotionally safe.
So I've seen it work and I'm witnessing it work, and certainly I feel like I'm a product of parents where it worked, right? Like, I have no psychotic issues. I'm walking the earth every day and I'm doing good in the world. There’s still pain and hurt to be healed, but they did a damn good job with the resources they had. So I don't believe in this idea of it not happening. [00:38:00]
I do believe in, first and foremost, making sure that, one, family of origin is explored to the nth-degree to make sure a child can stay within their family of origin. That's just in any given situation. I think especially so when there's race and culture, elements to be considered. But as we all know, I also feel like an adoption or a permanent situation for a child or person should not be impeded on the basis of any type of qualifier, right?
If there is willing, appropriate family based on a home study and based on all the legal constructs that exist, some are more loose than others, when you get into private adoption. But I would just say that if we are not being extra, extra mindful and challenging every possible nook and cranny of that experience.
[00:39:00] Like, I hear all the time, oh, well, you know, we'll do all this stuff. We'll go to this and we'll go to that. And I said, I think you need to make sure that you actually don't let the first time you hear the N-word be when your kid comes home from school.
Like, you gotta read some books, you gotta watch some historic programming. You've gotta have black friends. Somebody asked me, oh, how will I learn how to do my kid’s hair? I'm like, well, ask your black friends. They're like, uh, we don't have black friends. Well, there's your first problem.
So, you know, there's a continuum of like plugged-in parents. There are ones that really wanna be plugged in but are clueless, and you gotta take them by the hand. And there are some that, quite frankly, just don't feel like it's an issue at all and are putting their kids in danger.
I mean, so across the board, all these things are at play, and professionals are really the ones in charge right now of ensuring that these things don't go under, under-explored, under-appreciated, under-discussed. [00:40:00] The professionals are in charge of that.
Haley Radke: That's a pretty good answer. All right. Okay. Let's shift. You recently had a change. I saw an announcement in January that the Donaldson Institute was coming to a close. So you were the chief executive there. Can you speak a little bit about what's happened? And, you know, what I saw on Facebook was a lot of grief. People were very, very sad that Donaldson was closing.
April Dinwoodie: Mm-hmm, there was definitely a lot of grief. I mean, look, it's definitely been a tough year. Plus it hasn't been an easy time all the way through. I mean I've enjoyed the work; I've learned so much. I've been so inspired, empowered. [00:41:00] I've also felt like I got my butt kicked more than once.
And I underestimated, really, the challenge of being in this work 24/7. I mean, when I was in corporate, I could take a day off from being adopted. When I was working at Donaldson, I couldn't, and that I underestimated all that.
And plus I underestimated the lack of solidarity and community that existed in our space. I didn't expect that even though I'd been doing conferences and work in this space for a long time before taking the position, it was really kind of shocking to me. And it still does shock me when there's all of that kind of like real swirl of not so nice stuff that happens as we've all seen and experienced.
Sometimes things just run their course. I mean, of course, I feel there were times where I'm like, oh my gosh, I let everybody down. I mean, look, there's a board of directors, there's an executive director, chief executive, and there are donors, and this is all everybody's, these nonprofits are everybody's, right? They're not just, they don't belong to one person. [00:42:00]
I think it becomes that, and I think the Institute had become that over time. It felt as though it was one person, but it was really a collective, and I just feel like what people will never know. They'll know some of the things you can look at. You can look at financials, everything's an open book in the land of nonprofit. You can look at our track record and the leadership that came before me and my leadership to say that good work has been done.
But what people won't see are some of the shifts, the personal shifts and the relationships that have been built over time that I honor and their work will continue. You know, it was really important to me to have the work archived and it will be archived and it will be accessible.
First of all, I'm with you, I'm with everybody who feels badly, you know, and those who are angry. I mean, there's all kinds of emotion attached to this because I do feel like it was an organization that really needed to be [00:43:00], but like there's only so much we can do to sort of move things in a forward direction from a financial standpoint. You know, that's just the bottom line.
And we needed a lot more robust fundraising. We needed just more engagement overall. I think there was a misconception about the Institute for a long time that we just had like a big pile of cash and we just really never did. I mean, there was definitely funding there, but we were not an endowed organization and we relied heavily on donations and our one fundraiser a year.
So there's a lot of complexity to it. I did my best to lead, you know, with grace and integrity and the honor of what I think the community needed, but at the same time, there were changes that needed to happen and there was a vision that was yet to be realized. And, you know, there was a time that came where it just wasn't sustainable anymore. [00:44:44]
And, again, I think the thing that I am most proud of, the thing that people won't ever see, are some of the massive shifts that I've seen people connected to this Institute make on behalf of themselves, their family. And those relationships will endure, you know, well beyond, the Institute, and the work will be there too.
So, I do appreciate everybody's good wishes. And for those who can even identify a little bit, who've done this work, it's so emotional, right? There's such a passion for it. There's such a gravitational pull to doing this work that, when it was ending, it was like, oh my gosh, I can't even believe it.
But at the same time, oddly hopeful because maybe there's a new direction, a new path for things to take and maybe one that was necessary.
Haley Radke: [00:45:00] So that's my next question for you, actually. April, before we do recommended resources, last question. What do you see going forward in the advocacy for adopted people? Really specifically, that's my audience. What do you see for the future, for yourself and for the adoptee movement?
April Dinwoodie: There's been such an energy and a passion from the community of adopted people to make change and to have the voices being heard. I mean, it's just been remarkable to see all of that kind of taking shape. You know, what I realize is that there really have to be more adopted people in positions of leadership. And I would say a lot of that has to do with politics and policy.
And I think there was a point in time where I really questioned whether I should go from for-profit to non-profit. And one of the things that I do realize is that having a position of power in a corporation is that where there's a lot of money and power, [00:46:00] there is influence in that. And so I want adopted people to know that there's a place for them, you know, across the continuum of professional and volunteer and advocacy space.
But, just as the same way I feel about women and people of color, I think adopted people, as a group and as a people to be seen, need to really be in positions of power and influence and then use those positions of power and influence to further what we need as a community, but also, again, for a larger idea of what families really need and what children need and building healthy identity. Does that make sense?
Haley Radke: Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. We are gonna move to recommended resources, and I had to laugh because we're gonna recommend the same thing and that's okay. It's totally fine because this is a must listen. [00:47:00] April's podcast is called, Born in June, Raised in April, and I have recommended it on the show before.
I wanna hear from you what your great desire for your show was when you created it, and can you tell us a little bit about what you sort of started doing and the shift that you've made recently? So, I'd love for you to just explore that a little bit.
April Dinwoodie: Sure. Well, it sort of wasn't my idea actually. I had been doing a lot of writing and I had come to claim this idea of my birth name being June, which I found out through lots of different layers of my search, and my adoptive parents naming me April, both giving me the name Elizabeth, and being born in October.
So this idea of adoption throughout the year kind of inspired me to think more about what happens in the course of a year, month by month. [00:48:00] that is instructive and maybe even interesting or less explored areas of adoption.
For me, it was kind of like when my friend Josh was like, hey, let's do a podcast. Actually, no. It was actually my biological cousin who is the one who had the idea for the podcast. I have to give her credit for that. And she said, you really should do a podcast. It could be a thing for you. It'd really be great.
And then of course I talked to my friend Josh, and he was like, I'm in, let's do it. And so, all that to say that people outside of adoption kind of look at you and go, adoption? What? I don't know. Who cares? That doesn't impact me.
But, you know, family relationships, identity, the struggle for belonging. This idea of health and imperfect parenting and all these things are something everybody can identify with. In a way, the calendar was so inspiring to me because if we don't celebrate these things or we don't even acknowledge them, you kind of know they're happening [00:49:00] regardless of religion or whatever affiliation you have to tradition throughout the year, you kind of know.
You know, Valentine's month, you sorta know that it's Christmas. You know these big monumental things end up being devices to have conversations that I just sometimes feel that especially the adoptive parents aren't really recognizing. So, you know, when I talk about Thanksgiving and having a lot of extra people in your home who may not have your same value system or even the same language, and how they talk about things and how they look at the world, you gotta make some space for your kid.
Like you gotta just make sure or say, hey, if you don't wanna sit around the table for dessert, you don't have to, honey. Or, let me take you out for a walk, you know, for a little while. Like, just to be tuned in to some of these. That's just one example.
[00:50:00] So the podcast has just been like a way to look at adoption throughout the year and the recent shift that we made was, you know, there's a lot to learn. And from this empowered standpoint, it's like adoption can really teach people a lot of things. And then we have this space, I'm looking forward down the road to having the tougher conversations about money and looking at why adoption happens in the first place.
And so talking politically, religiously about some of these things and to do it in a balanced way, right? And, and to not be so that people have the ability to turn off and turn away. I would much rather create space to have the open dialogue so that we can manage it, you know? A little bit better than we have.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. So I've seen a real evolution of your show, right? Your first year or even longer, the episodes were just you and very brief and, as you said, the theme of each month, [00:51:00] whatever that may be, Mother's Day or Christmas, as you said. They were about 15 minutes, some very short episodes.
And then you've gone on to interview friends and colleagues. And the episodes I would recommend that people go listen to right away are when you are interviewing your mom in one month and then your dad and another. Those were so powerful.
And what a beautiful thing for you to open that up to us, that we can have a peek in at such an intimate relationship.
April Dinwoodie: Well, I mean, I think the thing too is like, uh, maybe I've mentioned but it has been, I don't know what I was thinking half the time. I'm like, did I really just do that? Like did I really ask that question? I mean, there's so much love there, but I'm also, like, I have to be so vulnerable, you know? [00:52:00] And I have to be like, it's their experience to have, you know. So I've learned so much about myself and about my journey of adoption through other people and interviewing them and having these conversations.
So it's sort of odd to recommend my own thing, but I don't know that there has been something else that has really brought me a really deep and new understanding about this experience and how it might be helpful to other people. I don't know.
Haley Radke: Of course as a fellow podcaster, I agree. I agree. And I have grown so much in the last couple of years of doing my show as well, and, you know, I'm interviewing people about their experiences and the whole time they're talking, I'm just like, oh yeah, oh yeah, I totally get that. Oh yeah, right, right. And then I'm also taking notes. Like, well, [00:53:00] I guess I need to bring these points to my therapist. Perfect. Okay. Oh, so good.
April Dinwoodie: Lots to talk about.
Haley Radke: Yes.
April Dinwoodie: And lots to connect on and, but, man, I just, you know, this space that you create, Haley, it's time, right? It's time. And it is empowering and that's kind of what I want it to be. I mean, look, everybody has their own true life experiences and challenges, but we've got a lot to share and a lot to talk about. So to be able to have that space is pretty remarkable.
Haley Radke: Yes, it is. It's so good. Thank you so much, April. Would you tell us where we can connect with you online?
Facebook is June in April. Instagram is June in April. Twitter is June in April. And then I have a website, aprildinwoodie.com. So any and all of those. And then the podcast is on iTunes, Born in June, Raised in April.
Haley Radke: Wonderful. [00:54:00] It's been so good to talk with you, and I thank you so much for your insights.
April Dinwoodie: Yeah. It's a pleasure and an honor, truly. And I thank you for making the space and for all that you're doing to get these conversations out there.
Haley Radke: Okay, friend, I have an exciting announcement. My husband and I are going on vacation. I know. So exciting for you, right? But we're coming down to San Francisco in May, and so I asked Nick if he would be okay if we added one extra day so that I could do a podcast meetup.
And so I wanna tell you about that and how we can meet in person, because that is my favorite, favorite, favorite thing, to connect with you in person. I asked Ann Heffron if I could do a write-or-die class with her, meaning learn from her, not teach it with her, learn from her.
And she said yes. So Anne is going to be teaching a write-or-die class in the afternoon from two to five, and then [00:55:00] later in the evening from six to eight, we're gonna do a listener meetup. You are invited to both or either of those events. And it's going to be on Sunday, May 20, downtown San Francisco, California.
And then the listener meetup is just hanging out. Hanging out, chatting, and I know there's a couple people that I've had on the show as guests before that are considering coming too, so I'm very excited about that. I'll let you know who else is gonna be there, but if you wanna find out more details about that, I will be writing about it in my upcoming newsletter. So adopteeson.com/newsletter.
And, also, if you just go over to the Adoptees On Facebook page and click on events, there's a link there with all the details on how you can RSVP, how you can sign up for Ann's write-or-die class. I'd love to meet you if you're in the San Francisco area or if it's easy for you to come and travel there. That would be awesome. [00:56:00]
And so that's, again, Sunday, May 20. Can't wait. Can't wait to see you there. Oh, I also just wanna say a really huge thank you to all of you who have signed up to partner monthly with the show through financial pledges on Patreon. And also some of you have sent very generous one-time donations. So thank you so much.
Your support literally keeps the show going. You are helping cover all the production costs and making it possible for me to continue this podcast weekly and produce more content for you. I'm so grateful, and I also wanna say a big thank you from all the future listeners who are going to discover Adoptees On and find their community here. They will do that because of your support.
So if you think this show is valuable, if it has made an impact in your life, I would love it if you would [00:57:00] stand with me and partner in this way if you're able to. Adopteeson.com/partner has details on how to become a monthly supporter and how to join the Adoptees Only Secret Facebook Group.
And also on adopteeson.com there's a one-time donation link, if that's something that you'd like to do. Thank you.
Okay, friends, that is it for today, but I have another awesome show for you next week, so make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find all our social media links on adopteeson.com.
Let's talk again next Friday.
