136 [Healing Series] Hidden Dignity Part 1

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/136

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke. And this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today is part one of my conversation with Pam Cordano on Hidden Dignity. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Pam Cordano. Hi, Pam.

Pam Cordano: Hi, Haley.

Haley Radke: I am gonna start crying. Oh my gosh. Okay. We got on the call and I was like, I'm not talking about your book. We're not talking about it until we start recording because I didn't— I wanted to save every second of this.

Oh my gosh. Your book is just, it's so beautiful. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna cry. Oh my gosh. Okay.

Pam Cordano: No, I'm gonna start crying.

Haley Radke: Get it together. Okay. So, Pam has been on the show so many times. You guys know her and love her just like I do. And she has this gorgeous offering for us in the world, and it's called Ten Foundations for Meaningful Life (No Matter What's Happened): to Viktor Frankl, with love.

And I was reading through it and just crying, and having all these light bulb moments. And just being like, Okay, what if you just read us the whole book on the show? That would be, that would just be so delightful. It's such a gift to read your words and just to know the heart you have for adopted people, and the freedom you want them to have. And the things you've learned in your lifetime, many of which you've shared with us on the show before.

And I don't know what to say. Just thank you and I'm so proud of you and I just… Oh my gosh. I'm hugging your book because you're far away. But…

Pam Cordano: Thank you, Haley. It means a lot to me. I mean, yeah, it's a big deal for any of us to put our hearts on the line, and our stories on the line, and our opinions on the line. It's hard and vulnerable. It's a big deal.

Haley Radke: And you share some very personal parts of your story that are like, I wonder if people know that about you. You have really some painful snippets of your life that have impacted you so deeply. And yeah, talk about vulnerable. I mean, incredible. Okay. I'm gonna stop gushing. Yikes. Okay.

One thing you and I have talked about sort of off-air in between our conversations over the years is how many adoptees we see kind of get stuck. And we look back at our circumstances, and we've emerged from the fog, and we're like, Man, adoption sucks. It really screwed up my life. And then we kind of get stuck there. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Pam Cordano: I’ve lived…I'm 55 (almost). I'm 54 and a little bit, and or I'm almost 55 and I know what that's like, because I lived there most of my entire life, in that place of being really angry and being full of grievance. And so aware of the injustice of it all, and I know that place really, really well. In fact, I mean, I know the place and I know what it's like to believe that's the only place, and to not see an exit door. And to not think that an exit door makes any sense at all. And to even think that–to not think, to believe that to leave my grievance would be to leave my soul.

That it's the truest thing about me. That if someone doesn't understand what happened to me, and how unfair it was, and no matter what things look like on the surface, what a bad deal I got... Not just with my early life, and then not just with my adoptive family, but also with my whole reunion with both parents and their families, then they don't know me.

And so to know me is to know my grievance. And without that, I'm not known. That's how I used to feel. I–

Haley Radke: The line in the book that you have is, you say, “Until later in life, I didn't want to abandon my grievances. I thought they were my deepest truths.”

Pam Cordano: Totally. Period. They were the truths that had been with me from the very beginning and even in conception, all the way until the present. And they felt like the ground floor of my life, the foundation of my life.

Haley Radke: And I'm assuming that you have seen other adoptees act like that.

Pam Cordano: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And when they do, I completely understand. I feel a kinship with them. I understand. I could jump right in and join the party of how awful it's been, and what a miracle it is that we've even stayed alive.

Haley Radke: Right. So what's the next thing? When did you realize Oh, I might be stuck in thinking this? and Is there more than this?

Pam Cordano: I think it has been a really gradual process. I've always been a person that's been going to therapy and things like that, that I've talked about before on the show. One part was (and it was through writing the book that I really got clear about this), that the only reason I could work with cancer patients even before I had cancer.

And the only reason that cancer patients were really the only people I wanted to work with was because they were living in a life that was half-alive and half-dead. And they had their own grievance. Why me? Why my body, why this disease? My kids are toddlers. I don't wanna leave them. I haven't had my fair shake. I haven't had kids yet, and now my uterus is gone. And they had their own version of grievance.

And of course, I– My bias is that adoption is the hardest thing because it happened from the beginning, so we… Our brains were so not ready to deal with all that we had to deal with. So I, in my heart, feel like that was worse.

I'd rather have ordered a whole different family situation and not have been adopted than even if I got Stage IV cancer when I was 30. And maybe that's not fair for me to say. It gets complicated comparing pain; it gets really complicated. And it feels a little bit dangerous to even say that.

But my point is just how hard it is when you're adopted and also when you don't connect with your adoptive family. And when reunion doesn't go well, and all those things that we talk about together (all of us). But to work with people with cancer, the thing that surprised me was how much they loved life (the people I was working with).

They were (many of them were) dying; most of them back when I was an intern, were dying. And they didn't want to go. They didn't want to leave behind life. And it wasn't just their family and their kids and their dreams, but it was also the little mundane things. Like in the book, I talk about this guy Mike, with a squirrel. And there were lots of stories. A woman, the day before she died in a hailstorm, who was in love with the hail–and I use the word rapture. She felt rapture from this hailstorm. And so I was seeing how much people that were not me loved life, and it was just a bit of a– I could see it through their eyes a bit, because death was on the table.

So because death was on the table, and suffering and injustice, then I could hear them when they talked about life. But the happy people that just want to talk about the happy things, I couldn't hear them. All that came up for me was the grievance and thought, Yeah, try being in my shoes and then talk about how nice your Thanksgiving was, or whatever I might think to myself.

Haley Radke: It seems like such a big shift, though, to go from the victimhood mentality, (which I think is what it is) to being like, Okay, so then what? What's the next thing?

Pam Cordano: Another thing is then (this is all throughout spiritual and religious literature), is the idea that a grievance hurts us more than it hurts the people we have a grievance against.

And on an intellectual level, I found that really interesting. It's like Okay, am I doing something that hurts me more than that person and those people? That's even more unfair if that's the case. But to think that, and to try that on intellectually is completely different than being able to feel it.

So I spent years not wanting to have grievances, and wanting to get the grievances out of my body and out of my mind. My mind would just go around and around and around with the same old grievances, and the triggers, and the storylines. And the intrusive thoughts of people in my birth family that I didn't want to be thinking about, or imagining what they were doing without me, or this and that and the other thing. It was like intrusive thoughts of the grievances. Does that make sense?

Haley Radke: Yeah. Absolutely.

Pam Cordano: So I would say that it took a really long time, because I wanted to be done with my grievances, because they were hurting me so much. I mean, my mind was tense, my brow was furrowed, my shoulders were tight…

I woke up angry, I was angry during the day—much more angry than I acted in the world. I would put on sort of a nice act (I'm a therapist after all), angry at night… I was just angry.

And like we talked before with my kids, and my kids would act entitled, or spoiled (or something), and I would just feel enraged. Like they have no idea how much they have compared to what I had, and they want this, or they want that. It's ridiculous, you know. So I hope you can see, I know this land of grievance. I know “Grievance Land.”

Haley Radke: And how does it feel to be the therapist and you're guiding someone through a challenging time? And you're giving them these tools, and you're listening to them. And yet on the inside (I don't know), what's your self-talk like? Really? Really? This is what we're talking about.

Pam Cordano: I tend to see people with really big problems. And that's who I really like to see. I see people who are suicidal. I see people who are paralyzed. I see people with very serious cancer and other illnesses. I see people who have had traumatic loss. And I see people who are adopted now more than I used to. And so usually who I have worked with–I don't have that thought, much.

And even if I did, I would kind of feel sorry for them. If somebody had a wonderfully sort of easy life, and they were complaining, I would kind of—I'd be curious, like on the human level. What's this? How strange! It’s like an alien to me.

Haley Radke: And like Is this really what we're talking about? Or is there something below that?

Pam Cordano: Exactly right. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm trying to get the therapist dirt, you know.

Pam Cordano: Yeah, we can do that!

Haley Radke: No, I'm joking. But yeah, so wow, you're seeing really challenging things happening. And also an understanding that you yourself have had this challenging thing happen.

And so moving from grievance to what? Forgiveness? Is that the next thing? Or is it– is there something in between there?

Pam Cordano: Okay. Step one was: I started to recognize the amount of pain the grievances were causing me physically, emotionally, mentally (in relationships). So I was–often they say the first step is awareness. I became aware of the cost to me of all my grievances. And so then I didn't know what to do about them.

And I used to hate the word forgiveness. I still kind of do, because it's not easy to forgive. And so actually I've studied grievances to try to understand What's the anatomy of a grievance? How do we create a g–? How do we literally create a grievance so that then I could uncreate my grievances?

So there's this guy, his name is Fred Luskin, and he has this project at Stanford called the–I think it's called the Stanford Forgiveness Projects (with an -s at the end).

And he has a book called Forgive for Good. And my favorite part of his work that I read was that (Oh my gosh. This is gonna be interesting to put out into words.). This is actually in my book. But there's a recipe for a grievance, and here's what we have to do. And I'll use myself as an example.

I had an intern who warned me she did not get along with women. So that's the most normal thing in the world. She's just warning… Here, we're gonna work together. And she's warning a woman that she doesn't get along with women. Okay. That's–nothing's happened yet that's out of the ordinary.

That's what–that's how she feels. That's what she does. So the second thing is we worked together for about two weeks and then she fired me. And I was so offended. But the second thing we have to do, then, is make ourselves the center of the story. Somehow, she was doing this thing to me.

I had generously opened my practice to her. I had done my best to take good care of her, and help her become a therapist, and she has the nerve to somehow decide that I wasn't good for her, and fire me. And I was just so offended. So I put myself now in the center of the story as if this is entirely about me. And then the third thing we have to do is just tell ourselves. Go over it, and over it in our minds again and again—like bazillions of times.

And I did that for probably three years. I just went over it, and over it. I was so offended. And I would see her in town and I would hear her name come up, and I would see her at events. And I was just full of grievance and just so mad at her. And then the next thing we have to do is we have to remove all other possibilities that this story means something different than we think it does.

My story is: She screwed me over. I opened my heart to her and she screwed me over. (And you can probably hear the adoptee in here, right?). There's a woman rejecting me. What does that feel like? It's–of course I'm super, super triggered by it. But nothing else is now possible.

It's not that she might have trauma from her past (with her mother), and she may just legitimately have trouble with women. And it may not be personal about me at all. And she might have wanted it to work, but it just didn't. And she might have felt awkward about changing supervisors, so she might have just done it awkwardly, or suddenly.

And maybe since then she's done more work on her relationship with women and her mother, and she's free of it now. And maybe it wouldn't turn out this way. It's just not so personal. So then we remove all other possibilities, and then that's how we have a grievance. So I started to try to imagine with some of my grievances (once I started learning this formula), how to back it all up.

And I used to laugh to myself about the part about making it self-centered. And it was a relief. It was like, Okay, if this story is so much about me, I–Then that feels better, because adoption felt so much like me. Like adoption. The fact that I was adopted felt entirely about my inherent lack of worthiness.

It was the proof that I wasn't worthy to be here in the world. So I might have said on the show to you before, but I felt full of humiliation and shame about being adopted. And I felt humiliated that this intern would fire me publicly. It was like everybody was gonna know. It's part of the story, the grievance story. Is this too convoluted or is it okay?

Haley Radke: No! It's so interesting, because you're giving this example of–I mean, I don't want to negate it in any way. It's this small example of something that happened to you, but it's had a big impact, right? You said you thought about it for years and it was this big thing, and then taking that back to the example of, “I'm adopted.” It's like your whole life structure revolves around that. It's not this two week interaction you had with this person.

Pam Cordano: No. Right. And I think what worried me about myself–it doesn't worry me now because I've gone I've… Something has shifted inside, which is why we're even talking about this. And you're asking about, “How did that shift happen?”

But before something shifted (I'm not sure if this is accurate), but what I felt like was my grievances were more intense, and more extreme, and upsetting, and agonizing than anybody else's I knew. My friends–none of my friends were adopted at that point. Now I have adopted friends, too, because of your show. But I just–when I compared my reactions to things compared to theirs, I felt like I was just really effed up.

Haley Radke: Is there something about that, though? This'll be like in generalized terms, but for someone that is kind of stuck in My story just sucks and there's nothing I can do about it, that we're just collecting evidence.

Pam Cordano: Totally right. We have a worldview, and then we collect evidence. And one of the things I wrote about in my book in Chapter two about dignity is I believe that we all (deep down) know that it's not true. That we're not worth nothing, that we're not worth giving away, that we're not worth being adopted, that we're not worth family-lessness, or all that we've been through. And so that is really the basis, in my opinion, the basis of our anger. We know it's not right, because we're worth more than that.

And the reason people have problems with the way adoption laws are and practices are, is that we know we're worth more than the way it's done. And we're worth more than being adopted at all. So getting mad is actually–we wouldn't even be if we… If I really believed I was worth being given away, I wouldn't have anything to be mad about.

I would just—I don't know. I'd just take my place in the corner or something. I mean, read a book. I wouldn't be all mad, but I was infu…I was furious. I was furious since I was four.

Haley Radke: Okay. So I'm having a major light bulb moment, right? Because that is so insightful, that just the very reason we’re mad, or upset, or that something is like— there's disconnect, something wrong happened… It means something.

Pam Cordano: It means something important. It means something about what we know. We know our value. We know it.

Haley Radke: And so it's like, Why can't anybody else see that? I don't…

Pam Cordano: Yeah. Why can't anybody else see that? And why is everybody being complicit in this? And why is no one talking about this horrific thing that was done to me? And don’t I ma—

I mean, I do matter. That's the thing, that it's not, Don't I matter? It's actually, I'm mad and I'm saying don't I matter? But deep down, at some level, I know I do matter and this is just wrong and I need more overt love and acknowledgement of what this has been.

Haley Radke: I'm thinking about all the people that write to me once they've heard a few episodes of the show, and usually when they do, the words that come are very much, Oh my gosh, I finally get it. I finally feel seen, or I finally feel understood.

There's the validation and I mean–holy smokes! How to have a moment that you're like, Oh my gosh, someone else gets it. Someone else sees that I am worthy. And why did this happen to me? What is that moment? Oh, me. Wow.

Pam Cordano: Yeah I think that and I did this (and I see this at the adoptee retreats that Anne and I have, too), that people are angry. And they're disconnected, and sometimes they're addicted, and they’re all kinds of things, railing against their experiences. But they don't yet have it put together that they–some part of them does think that they're worth something, or else they wouldn't even be… They wouldn't have a basis for being mad if they, you know what I mean?

The runt of the litter. When you think about Charlotte's Web–I don't know if, remember if there was a runt in that movie? But they're not off like setting the farm on fire. They're just like, they take their place. They're not arguing, but we who have a problem with it are… We're trying to value ourselves and we do value ourselves at some level.

It just may not be connected up. So I'm trying to flip–I'm trying to flip the script here. You know what I'm trying to do here?

Haley Radke: I have nothing to say, because I'm just like, Whoa. Whoa. And I read your book, and I read it very thoroughly. And I super did not understand that in Chapter two. It's just because I'm like, Oh, I guess. Right? You skim over things that you're like, Oh, she's not talking about me for that. I don't think I have worth, you know? There's something to that. Ewww, that feels yucky.

Pam Cordano: But maybe the yucky isn't 100% yucky.

Haley Radke: But I have–I've literally sat with people around a table who tell me that same thing, right? “I've always felt worthless. I've always, I've like…” That whole thing. And to know that you're only expressing that because deep down you actually think you're valuable?

Pam Cordano: Right. And you know what the most important reason I want to…? But I have so much passion about this piece of the conversation…is that what I care about is helping people save their lives. And not just their life from suicide, but their quality of life and their dreams for their futures that can become more about who they are, at some point. And less about what the dream is in terms of the grievance–a grievance-based dream. But just dreams that are free of, that are possibly different and possibly even coming from outside the wound (if that's even possible). I didn't used to think that was possible.

The point of my book was I had to find a way to save my life. This book to me is about saving my life. And so then when I share that thing about dignity, or some belief that we do know we have value underneath it all, I'm not saying that to be positive or make people think it's not as bad as it is. I'm saying that to help people see– Like if they can connect to that, then they've got the basis to start turning something around a little bit. Do you know what I mean? Like dignity is power. And we have it.

Haley Radke: But even just that thought of saving your life, it's so profound. And as I said before, so many of us get stuck in the black hole of, Adoption sucks, and, Why did this happen to me?

And you see the anger, you see the anger in what they write online. You see the anger in person, the impact it's had, constantly pushing people away... We all know people that are like that, or you recognize in yourself, probably. If I'm talking about that, am I talking about you?

Pam Cordano: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, hating the world, hating people, hating me... Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah! But a call to, “What could life be if you can process some of that? And find this meaning?”

Pam Cordano: Okay, so having a grievance is an active thing. It requires our minds, our emotions, and our whole bodies. It's a very–it's a full-on experience, having a grievance. And so, if we start to notice how uncomfortable it is when we're in a grievance (which I did).

I mean, like I said, I had muscle tension. I got headaches a lot. I had jaw tension. I had stomach aches from holding everything so tightly, had rage at people. I had a feeling of overwhelm, like I could barely take one more thing. And I started to not want my body–I guess, because I started to care about myself. I wanted–I didn't want my body to feel so bad, so often. So I started to try to practice having a softer body (even though that was counterintuitive), because when you're trying to save your life and protect yourself from humiliation and bad things, it's hard to let that defense structure down.

Haley Radke: So what does that mean, “having a softer body”?

Pam Cordano: I actually started with my kids. I was raising my kids and I would feel mad at them a lot. And I mean, I'm soft-pedaling this. I felt mad all the time, honestly. At them and everything else. So I remember hearing somewhere, maybe it was at a retreat or something... I heard something about trying to parent with a soft body, and that was really like a revolutionary idea to me. So I remember, I would walk in the front door from work or somewhere and I would try to soften my belly.

I would just try to soften my sh–drop my shoulder, soften my belly, and try to walk in the house. And my intention was: whatever they were doing, whatever they said, whatever they did or didn't do, I was going to try to communicate with them while keeping my belly soft at the same time. To not get into the pattern of reactivity and anger that was beyond what they were responsible for, obviously. You know?

And so I think my kids were important enough to me to be worth practicing, that I had a dial on my body. I wasn't just trapped in grievances. I had a say about what I did with my softening it, or not softening it. Or trying to soften it, and then failing (or whatever).

Haley Radke: It's so interesting that you say that, right? Because it's–Of course, tension is like this tight thing, but I don't know that the opposite of that would be like, Oh, soft. But telling that to your body…Oh, that's interesting! That's a good one.

So how does that go to unwrapping this grievance? Of that fact that I'm adopted?

Pam Cordano: So then I started going into public, practicing having a soft body. And I thought, Okay, if I'm in a meeting or with a client and somebody does or says something that triggers me or threatens me or anything, I'm gonna see what happens if I keep my body soft.

I even went on rollercoaster rides at Disneyland, trying to–the entire ride, keep my body soft. Just start just…I wanted to master, like I get to decide. I get to decide when my body's soft. And the weird thing is, it's not weird at all, actually! When our shoulders are dropped, and our bodies are more soft, we don't feel as triggered.

And so we can start with our brains and try to think our way out of a problem, or we can start with our bodies and try to let our bodies unwind. And it goes much faster with the body involved, I promise.

Haley Radke: I'm just thinking about the story you told in your book about your body deciding not to vomit anymore?

Pam Cordano: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Which you don't have to share! People will have to read the book to get that one, but wow! I cannot picture being soft on a rollercoaster. That's amazing. That's amazing.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. And actually, after my father (this is not in the book), after my father died… My dad scared me, so I stopped vomiting when I was four. And after he died seven years ago, I got norovirus and I vomited. I'm not kidding. I vomited 88 times and I was terrified, because I have a terror of vomiting. And I've met a lot of other adoptees who do, also. Something about losing control? And so what I did was, I actually went to the ER, because it was really extreme.

But as I was vomiting I imagined my dad putting his hand on my back (which in real life, I would never want his hand anywhere near me)-- But he had his hand on my back and just saying, “I'm sorry. Just go; just let it out.” And I tried relaxing my body, even then. Because I felt like, That's my power. So much about being adopted is not having power, but what we do with our bodies is something that is in our power.

Haley Radke: I don't know how you make me cry every time. I don't understand.

Pam Cordano: What are you crying about? What is it?

Haley Radke: Wow. I'm just picturing you in that moment, and picturing your dad having his hand on your back. And I just–that's so moving. Being able to recapture something that you should have had: you should have had a compassionate parent that could take care of you when you were sick.

Pam Cordano: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, and imagery is really powerful, because our bodies really don't know the difference between what we imagine and what actually happens. So that's why (we've talked about this on your show before)... But if we imagine eating a lemon, our mouth will water anticipating the sour lemon juice.

And in the same way, sometimes there are ways to imagine pieces of the world that we didn't get. And again, that goes together with dignity, because we do deserve those things. And so even though they may not be “true” in our lived experience (and that does matter), it's also true that we deserve them.

So if me giving myself my father's support, when he was the source of my terror, was kind to myself. And I felt like it was honoring myself, somehow.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. Okay. We are gonna start wrapping up this part one of our two-part conversation with Pam. Do you have any final thoughts on grievances before we say goodbye for today?

Pam Cordano: The final thought is: there's something really radical and subversive about questioning our grievances. And we can have a death grip on them and think that we'd rather die than give up a single grievance or give up an important grievance. But it's smart for us to look at the possibility that some of our grievances, or the magnitude of our grievances, or how much space they take up in our lives could actually be imprisoning us more than they're helping us stay intact.

Haley Radke: That's a big thought to end on. Okay, thank you. So we want to make sure everybody is able to grab a copy of your book. It's called 10 Foundations for a Meaningful Life, (No Matter What's Happened). So why don't you let us know where we can grab it, where we can connect with you online and…yeah!

Pam Cordano: Yeah, okay. So you can get the book on Amazon or with Balboa Press (if you don't want to go through Amazon). And just, my name is under Pam Cordano, MFT. And my website is Your Meaningful Life. Your Meaningful (dot) Life, or pamcordano.com (Same website). And my email is pcordano@comcast.net.

Haley Radke: And one thing that we didn't mention, but your book is (obviously) 10 Foundations, so you're talking about all these different foundations. And at the end of every chapter, you have all of these questions for us to answer and actual exercises. So I love that. I love that. So good.

Pam Cordano: Thanks. Thanks.

Haley Radke: Alright. Thank you so much for sharing with us.

Pam Cordano: Thank you, Haley.

Haley Radke: I hope you took away as much as I did from that conversation. I can't wait to share next week's with you. It's so good. Please make sure you're subscribed in whatever podcast app you like to listen to. My favorite is Overcast; I love Overcast. It's so easy to use. I have curated playlists for myself. If I'm going to be listening to adoptee shows, or if I'm going to listen to true crime–I have different playlists for different moods. There's more than just those two, but those are two examples I can think of.

Anyway, I love listening in Overcast. If you want to make sure you get notified every single week, that's a great way to do it. Subscribe in your podcast app, and then it'll just pop up as soon as there's a new episode.

Friday morning is when I release and it will just download automatically and it's just such a dream. So easy to use the Overcast app. If you're on Android, there's lots of free podcast apps you can download, and if you have an iPhone, you have a built-in podcast player. So, go ahead and hit subscribe and you will be notified next week when the part two of our two-part series with Pam Cordano on Hidden Dignity is ready for download.

I am just so grateful for Pam for coming on the show. I'm also grateful for my monthly supporters who faithfully just want the show to continue, and they actually do that by going to adopteeson.com/partner and signing up for Patreon (which is a monthly subscription service). So you get access to some bonuses, like a totally separate Adoptees Off Script podcast that is up every Monday, and there is an adoptees-only Facebook group. And there's some new things coming very soon, so you can watch for that.

I'm just–Ooh. Lots of cool things in the works. Anyway, I'm so thankful for my monthly supporters. If you want Adoptees On to continue to exist in this world, if you think healing episodes are important, if you wanna hear more adoptee stories and this is the place for it, then please consider joining my other monthly partners. Adopteeson.com/partner has those details for you. Thank you, my friend, for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

135 [Healing Series] How Trauma Affects Reunion

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/135

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Last week, we addressed cross-cultural intergenerational trauma, and we are continuing that theme today with Marta Sierra Drachenberg. She is back and, oh my goodness, this is so good. I can't wait to get to it. I just wanna mention before we get started, though, that we do mention sexual assault. So please keep that in mind when you're deciding whether or not now is the best time for you to listen. And if you do have little ones around, please do put your earbuds in, because this is an adult conversation.

Okay, let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Marta Sierra Drachenberg. Hi, Marta!

Marta Isabella Sierra: Hi, Haley.

Haley Radke: I can't wait to talk to you, again, today. I am so excited and I just, I forgot to do this last time, but you are a therapist, but you specialize in internal family systems. And can you just give us a quick snippet of what that means?

Because it's a little different from some of the therapists that we've had on the show before and I think it's so valuable. It's such a valuable way, especially of looking at adoptee things. So please tell us a little bit about what IFS is before we get into what we're gonna talk about today?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Sure. So, IFS is an experiential therapy, which means that it's an experience; it's not just talking. And it's a way to access all the different parts of yourself, meaning that we all are really multiple—we have lots of different parts of ourselves that feel lots of different ways, and have lots of different beliefs, and lots of different reactions to things. And then when you add trauma in the mix, that have been affected in different ways, and then parts that are protecting the parts of us that have been traumatized…And it's just a whole world in there. And the goal of IFS therapy is to get yourself (your authentic self, or your heart–however you wanna think about that) in a really solid relationship with all of your parts, so that you can facilitate healing. And feel more connected, and less dysregulated, and ideally move through triggers in a different way. Experiential therapy can also help build new neural pathways in the brain, which is really what's so hard about healing preverbal trauma in the first place.

Haley Radke: When you were first on the podcast and you taught us about it, it was so, so interesting. So, if any of what Marta just talked about is interesting to you, go back and listen to her episodes 69 and 71. And she really gives us a deep dive into IFS there. Thank you.

Okay, so we left off and we were talking about how different reunion can be when it's international and really cross-culturally… We talked about a lot of different things last time and I wanna continue that conversation.

You mentioned that just even the nation of Colombia has trauma that has been going on for generations and that there's not really access in a regular…What am I just trying to say? There's not really access to mental healthcare as a regular practice and that shows. So can you talk a little bit about that in your reunion, and especially with your mother?

Marta Isabella Sierra: So, yeah. The first thing I'll say is that I had talked in the last episode about a second language barrier being a cultural language barrier. And I had said there were three. So the third one that we're gonna talk more about today is this mental health language as its own language.

So, even as my language skills got stronger, I really found myself without the words for all of this mental health speak, right? Like this “therapist talk” that I use so casually in English, I was really struggling to even—What words should I use? And then more importantly than that, Does that still even make sense? Does it register? Do you know what I mean?

Like you had said, “boundaries” in our last episode, and I didn't stop you because I knew I wanted to talk about it today. But that's nothing. That means nothing that may as well be Chinese, right? No one knows what a healthy boundary is. No one's ever experienced a healthy boundary. It's this totally foreign concept that I'm introducing. So, that's really hard.

I have worked my whole life, not only on teaching other people how to implement healthy boundaries, but trying to walk the walk, implement what I'm asking my clients to implement. And I found myself really without the ability to do that, because it's just not even understood. I couldn't even explain it if I wanted to.

Haley Radke: That's blowing my mind. I'm just like—my mouth is wide open because I'm like, Wow, that's not even translatable. So, what do you do then? How do you explain a choice that you might define as Okay, I've got a boundary with this specific thing. How do you explain that choice, then? They're–they don't understand that.

Marta Isabella Sierra: I think sometimes you just don't (similar to in English). If someone's not respecting your boundary, you don't keep explaining to them, right? You just say, “I'm not gonna do that.” So a lot of times it would end up just being like that: “I'm not gonna do that.” And not even bothering, really, to go into the “why.”

There's already so much miscommunication that can happen in these relationships. And certainly there were a lot of assumptions about why I was doing what I was doing all the time, which of course I was making, too. We're all just trying to figure each other out. I just learned that they're gonna make their assumptions about my behavior anyways, whether or not I try to explain it. So ultimately, in those high moments of stress, I'm gonna just have to do what's best for me and I'm gonna have to release control over what everybody thinks about that.

Haley Radke: That's so great. You sound like you have it together. I'm like, Oh, how do I do that?

Marta Isabella Sierra: And, so, the other thing is just that, we need each other. I know we talk about this all the time in your podcast. We talk about community all the time, but I just–I can't emphasize that enough–that what got me through the hardest parts of that year was the people in my life that have gone before me.

I have an amazing friend from Oregon who is older than me, has been in reunion longer, is from Colombia, and knows the culture. And I would have—I had maybe four video calls with her over the course of a year, but they were so essential. And she's a clinician. She's not a therapist, but she's been working in adoption for years and years and years. So she speaks that language with me, as well. And we would get into these really interesting discussions about, “Is it even ethical? To hold our Colombian families to American mental health standards, when they haven't had access to the education that we've had? When they haven't had access to the resources that we have?”

Can I even say, “You know, you're not respecting my boundaries. You're—it’s disrespectful and hurtful to me. I'm out.” Is that really ethical? And I don't have a concrete answer. All I can say is that having those discussions with her definitely allowed me a lot more compassion. I do, still ultimately, I do what I need to do for me, including the painful decision I made about my relationship with my brother. But it does help me in moments to remember that there's just so much history in my family, and in my country that I'm never gonna ever understand. And I have to remember that I don't have all the puzzle pieces, that there's so much going on that I can't see. And I need to honor that the same way I want it honored for me. When I do something that's not understood, I don't want it to—the assumption to be negative or for someone to assume they understand completely why I'm doing that. I want them to be curious. So if I'm wanting curiosity on their end, then I have to be willing to also be curious.

Haley Radke: Well, that's a huge question. That is really intriguing, and I'm not gonna go too far off track here, but just a rabbit trail from that statement, the ethics of holding my Colombian family to the same standards as Americans, because they don't have access to mental health supports or even the same “therapy language” (in quotation marks). And I'm thinking about how so many of our reunions have broken down and we talk about, “Oh, well you have to work on your own stuff first.” And lots of adoptees, and lots of first parents both haven't had any sort of therapy to deal with those things. And so I'm just, Hmm…this is an interesting question to ponder. Thank you for bringing that up.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. And given that, I wouldn't— I'm so glad for all the work that I've done. It still was a really difficult situation a lot of the time. It was still hard to navigate things, but I was so grateful for all of the work I had already done and having the language of IFS (especially in really difficult situations) saved me.

So I guess that's an easy place to jump into what happened with my mom. So, I'm really, really close with my mom. I always have been; I feel really, really lucky. We're very connected. I think we always have been, even before I knew about her, even before I found her. We're very similar in a lot of ways.

We have a couple really different parts of our personality. One of the big ones is that she's very religious. Again, it's a really Catholic country. I sort of felt, like, really scared in the beginning. I remember telling her that I wasn't religious. I remember shaking and being nervous. We were just texting over WhatsApp, but I didn't know how she was gonna take it.

Overall, she's pretty good with it, but it comes up in these ways, because my mom's concept around her personal trauma is that she didn't have any trauma. And anything that happened to her, she's given up to God. And so, that's her defense mechanism around it, right? She's wrapped this thing around it and she won't touch it. She's very receptive to me talking about my trauma, and how our separation, and lots of things have affected me. She's fine with that, but there's just this block around what she's experienced.

And I'm not just talking about the trauma of my birth (which I'm a product of rape, so there’s a lot of trauma around me coming into the world). But she's experienced just so much more than that; I'm not gonna list it. It's—I try to walk that line of telling my story, versus telling her story. I feel fine disclosing the rape, because it's my origin story. She's experienced a lot of other trauma in her life, and this is how she survives it. And it's also how she's so loving and full of light anyways, despite it.

And so it's allowed us to be close and build this relationship that's very close. But I suppose, at some point, that was going to boil over. So, that happened in April on this big trip that I talked about in the last episode. It was a lot that I already talked about—two huge things. And so this is the last one, which is… So we had been staying in my aunt's house. I met a bunch of new family while we're there. So, as far as stressors on my mom's system, she's back where she grew up. She's back where she raised my brothers and sister. She's staying in the house of an ex-boyfriend who was (bleep) to her (and was kind of still being [bleep]). That's where some of my family was staying.

She's introducing me to a bunch of new family, which I can't imagine how vulnerable that was for her. And I think, more than she articulated out loud, she really wanted that to go a certain way. Of course, right? So obvious now, but I wasn't thinking about it then. Of course, I was in my own overwhelm of, I'm going to where my brothers and sister grew up. I'm going to meet all this new family. I was in my story while she was in her story.

And my relationship with my sister has always been very tense. She has a lot of stuff around me. I don't even want to talk about it a ton, honestly, but we have a very difficult relationship. And that was sort of moving towards a blowing point as well. And so because they were staying in a separate house together, they would often show up together and leave together. And so, my mom wasn't actually seeing how I was interacting with my new family, because when she would come around, my sister was with her.

And I would go away or I would shut down, or I would go hang out with the kids, or…there were a lot of animals there, too (I would go play with the animals). Because I was trying not to flip out. So, I was taking—this is like an example, right? I was doing my mental health self-care: taking space, using my skills, using connection. All of these things that I think are taking care of myself, that are viewed externally, culturally, as me being disconnected and antisocial.

I'm over here, like, I'm doing such a great job, right? And the perception of me is that I'm being disconnected and weird because the assumption is I'll spend every second with everyone all in the big group. And even just surface level, like every 10 people speaking Spanish at once for three hours–I can only take it for so long before I have to go lay down. It's just too much for me; I need a break. And so, that was like one light element that was going on, but it's like tension’s building throughout the week. Everyone's talking about everything we're doing, and everything that's happening.

It's just like that's very “Latin family,” like phone tree. I say something, and then I get a text from this cousin way over there that already heard about it, because it goes “tick, tick, tick,” down the line of whatever. It's nuts. Everyone tells everyone everything. There's a lot of that stuff going on.

So meanwhile, everyone's been talking about us all week. There's been so many things that could have been fixed with direct communication, early on… “Put your stuff in your suitcase every day” was an expectation that I didn't know was happening (that I would never do on my own), but would have adjusted easily.

So it's all festering, right? All week. Including my sister seeing that an opportunity has opened to really hurt me. So on the eighth day, we do this big family shoot (family photo shoot), which in Colombia is like, forever. It lasts forever. First, all the women, then all the men, then just the kids, then this family, then this family, then everybody, then now with the grandparents–it's crazy and it goes on forever. So that ends, and my sister calls me and my cousin and my little, my youngest brother over and starts just screaming at us.

It was the craziest thing I've ever experienced. About something that I'm not gonna even indulge the content, because honestly it didn't matter. She was upset about something that we did that had zero negative consequences. It was just the little snack that she needed to have her opportunity to flip out. This is also not out of the norm for her. And it's also not out of the norm culturally, bringing back in the cultural piece. You don't deal with your feelings, you don't deal with your feelings, you don't deal with your feelings; you explode, and then everything's–and then you just move forward. And then everyone just goes, “That was annoying.” And just carries on. It's just, it's so foreign to me.

So, first thing I do is physically back up, and then I'm texting one of my closest adoptee friends. And she's with me in the moment and I'm like, “My sister's screaming. Like, this is crazy.” And she's like, “Just take some space.” She's coaching me through it. (Thank you, Summer! I love you.). And so I'm sitting down now, but it's still going on. And it goes on forever, and it goes into this whole attack that is specifically–would be designed to make an adoptee go insane. Nobody wants me in this family, and if I'm not gonna be like the family, then I should get out. And just craziness, right?

And she's also screaming at me in Spanish, so I'm not even getting everything. I'm getting enough. All the kids are here. This is like a show, right? And she wants me to respond, and I'm not gonna take the bait. And I'm also choking back tears. I'm like, She will NOT see me cry. Right? I'm locked down. But I also froze, which is pretty rare, right? But we know trauma response is fight, flight or freeze. And that's not my usual go-to, but I was so overwhelmed that I froze. And I have a lot of regret about that, but I also have compassion that that's just what my amygdala decided I was gonna do in that moment.

So this goes on forever. My mom gets involved. It's like she whipped everyone up, right? It was just like this weird, crazy frenzy. So, eventually, it ended; things transpired over the night… It was just a really rough night. Of course, I broke down. I was crying all night. I’m talking to my friend. My partner's there. My partner was sleeping through this. He was upstairs, so then he wakes up to me sobbing and shaking in bed, and (poor thing) has to deal with me. And we don't feel welcome.

We wanted to leave, but it's the middle of the night, so we waited till morning. We go get breakfast; we go find a hotel to go to. We just had one more night there. It didn't make sense to move our flights or anything, so we just went to a hotel in town (which my brother helped us find). And so, meanwhile, my mom has been—my sister has still been stirring up my mom, which… It's an important moment to pause and say that my mom was 16 when she had my sister. My sister's older than me. They have an interesting kind of inverted relationship, which can often happen right when teenagers have babies. That there's a parentified child role with the child. So, my sister's kind of the matriarch of my family. She has a lot of…she takes care of everyone, like financially.

Most of my family (in the beginning of the year) lived in her house, which changed by the end of the year, which is interesting. But she's kind of the leader of the family, so she has this influence over my mom that's kind of maternal and interesting. So in certain cases, I think when my mom is a certain level of vulnerable, she can get under her skin and kind of whip her up a little bit. So she's whipped my mom up that like I've done something terrible and that I'm also acting terrible in response to it. So she's email—She's texting me, texting me, texting me. And I'm saying, “I don't want to talk. I'm too overwhelmed. I'm really, really, really, REALLY upset. Can you please just let me calm down?”

She shows up when we're taking our bags to go to the hotel, asked to talk to me. I said, “Fine. You have five minutes.” She just starts screaming, which (again) has never happened before. I've never seen this side of her, and she's just screaming at me and I'm like, “Nope, not today.” Right? I'm a little bit more with my faculties then I'm like, “Not today.”

I scream at my partner and I'm like, “Let's go.” We've got our bags and we leave. And she's yelling at me the whole time. So that was me really breaking a cultural norm. You stay and you take your verbal whipping. That's what you do as a child. “You take your punishment” is sort of how it's viewed. Like, “You be a good kid and take your punishment and sit here and deal with the shaming and the yelling.” And so by leaving–which I was doing to take care of myself, right? There's my healthy boundary, right? There's my self-regulation. It's seen as very rebellious. So she is now–if she was at an 11, she's now at a 19 and she is rapid texting me, just venom.

I never saw this side of her before. The cruelest things anyone's ever said to me in my entire life. She used so many things against me, attacked just everything about me. I'm not gonna even say the exact things, because I just… I still, now, even in the aftermath, I do feel protective of this side of her. That was just..it's a really cruel part of her. But I know it's a reaction to trauma, right? But she just went at me in a way that I couldn't deal with. I was laying on the ground in our hotel room, tremoring, sobbing, just trying to calm down my baby part. That was my only goal. I just kept saying, “You're okay. We're okay. You're okay. We're okay.” Just so dysregulated.

And I just couldn't believe it, and in those moments…I was really trying to just stay with what was happening for me and calm myself down. But of course there's other parts of me that are thinking and, I'm really feeling like I’ve lost her. I don't have my mom anymore. It really felt like, I don't know how I could ever trust her again, that she would say these things to me. Who even are you? It felt, Okay, if this is really you, then everything else was a lie. And then and I can't… okay.

And I have like my “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” parts that are like, We lived without a mom for 30 and a half years. We can do it again. We'll survive. We're not gonna give…, right? Like I'm already rallying the troops, right? I'm like, I will get through this. Which I know I could have, but I think that just goes to speak to how, and we're re-wounded or re-traumatized. How strong that impulse is to just shut the door.

Haley Radke: So your mom is texting you these horrible things?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Uh-huh. Eventually, she stopped. I never wrote back that day. I never responded at all. It just felt like she was out of her mind, which she was. She was completely out of her mind.

Haley Radke: So you're getting texts from your sister and from your mom?

Marta Isabella Sierra: No, my sister had given up at that point. The damage had been done that she wanted to inflict on me, which was to humiliate me in front of my whole family. And so I'm just…I'm, like, dying. It's really rough. And then we have this huge long journey back to Cali. We get back. At this point, I'm already having my usual things that I have when I have an extreme trauma response, which is like my digestive system is insane, wreaking havoc on my body.

Soon after that, I got really sick again, which was my fourth time in the hospital in Colombia. This time, it was different than the other times, though. And then ultimately we decided it was probably dengue fever, which is from the mosquitoes in Llanos. Which, if you grow up there, there's two strains of dengue fever. You get them each as a child and then you never get them again. But the emotional crisis, I think, perfectly set my body up to come down with something like this. So it's a days-long fever with a rash all over your body, and vomiting, and just all of it…It's super fun. I’m dealing with that as I'm dealing with all this emotional stuff and not talking to my mom, really, not being ready and really wondering, Is this it? Is this over?

And we still had three months left. What am I even doing here anymore? It just–it was really, really crushing. The interesting piece of aftermath was also that my little brother (my youngest brother), as a result of all of this, decided he didn't want to live with my sister anymore. So he had asked if he could stay with us for a couple weeks while he looked for a place (when we got back from that trip), and so of course we said yes. And so two weeks was actually three-and-a-half months. He moved out a week before we left in July. But that was a whole other element.

Haley Radke: This must feel like choosing sides, then. Like he's choosing your side?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. Yeah. So, I was worried about that—and so just the whole system reconfigures, right? And I have my great uncle, who’s my abuelo's brother, was one of the few people that I reached out to. He's this really grounded voice of wisdom in my family. I know that my mom will listen to him. And we talked and even he, though… He's not wrong. I love him so much, but he (I wasn't ready for any of it, either)... His view was, “You know better, Marta, more about all of this. You understand trauma better. You have to be the one to forgive. You have to be the one to open your hand up.”

And I just wasn't ready at that point. So I did. I took care of myself the way that I know how to, in the face of no one really understanding that. I did it anyways. I took a lot of space. I told her I needed time, that I did not know when I was gonna be able to talk, that I felt really unsafe around her. I did articulate a lot about how violated I felt, and how dysregulated my… I talked to her about parts anyways. Even though she doesn't understand IFS, I told her, “My traumatized baby is feeling really unsafe. I can't be around you right now. I don't know when I'll be ready.”

Talking to my supports at this point was huge, of course, but ultimately it was about me having IFS in my life. About me having this language. Because what I had to sit with (what I'm still sitting with), is that part of my mom hates me. Part of my mom maybe even wishes that I didn't exist. I'm a physical reminder of her rape.

Even though I look way more like my mom than–I mean (I haven't even seen a photo), but I look… People call us twins. I mean, it's—there's not a lot of pictures of her when she was younger, but people that knew her when she was younger say that we're identical. So, I don't have that piece that some children who are products of rape have of looking like that person.

But that doesn't change the fact that I'm the physical evidence of what happened to her. And some of the cruelest things she said to me that day were specifically about how I came into this world and this piece that I've been secretly feeling so vulnerable about, right? That we had never processed, to weaponize it against me in a moment of vulnerability, I just—it feels so heartless. But then if I back up and put my clinical hat on, I know she was really triggered being there, right?

All of those stressors that I said before. Being in that environment, I know she felt really exposed, too. And it was just the perfect storm of triggers. And she lashed out, because there's so much pain inside of her that she hasn't healed, that she hasn't let out, and it— she unleashed on me. And while I don't think that that's okay, obviously I do understand why it happened.

And there came a point–I just missed her. Even though she hurt me so much worse than anyone's ever hurt me, I just—day after day, I was starting to miss her. And I was starting to wonder, Is this really how I wanna leave here? Am I not gonna–am I really not gonna make this repair? Am I really gonna give up on this? Am I really ready?

I do have those parts. I know I could survive it, but the same way that my lens on her parts and her trauma helps me with compassion, I also still strongly feel like my responsibility is to my parts. And my job is to take care of my traumatized little girl.

And the question is, “Do…?” (Many. I say one, like my baby, but really like I feel very fond towards my five-year-old and my adolescent part, too). So all these little girls that I'm responsible for. What's gonna serve their healing? Is it to lose her again or is it my job to make sure that they have their mom so that they can heal and they can feel safe?

So we met with my translator (my friend, that’s my translator) and called and after some, a lot of texting, and we met in person and we just, we talked a lot about some of the things that— There was a lot said in the aftermath that I was really upset about, too. And so just healing up some of those wounds. And really, I think ultimately what it was, I saw her fear, too. And I don't know if she could have survived losing me, again. I don't know if I could have survived losing her again. At some point, somehow that all became clear to me: that it wasn't necessarily about what happened that day, but it was about moving forward together, because to lose each other again, I think would've just been so detrimental to both of us.

And actually, my mom has a lot of heart problems, and (unsurprisingly) she had a lot of symptoms after this trip. Her heart was literally breaking. So I'm really protective, obviously, of her health and ultimately we moved through it. And by the time I left, a couple months later, we were pretty much back where we had started and now we're–I mean, we talk every day.

She texted me, “Good luck!” before I signed on with you. And yeah, I can't imagine my life without her. And I know that so many reunions break because there's unhealed trauma and things that happen that just feel too painful to survive. And we feel like we have to walk away. And I'm absolutely not saying, “Whatever, just deal with whatever happens to you in these relationships.” Take care of yourself.

Again, I'm telling this story in 10 minutes, but it really evolved over two entire months and there's a lot that I'm not speaking to, of course. And it was complicated, but I still (at the end of the day) I'm so grateful. And without IFS, I don't know how I could hold that truth: that this woman that loves me, would move heaven and earth for me, is so loving, also has a part of her that hates me.

But that's just true. That's just being a human that's experienced trauma. It's not black and white. It's not like she loves me or she doesn't. I know that she loves me, and there's a part of her that hates me because I'm the reminder. I'm the proof. And I have to do my own work around that, around accepting that.

Haley Radke: Can you say how long, thinking about things and processing, before you guys all met with the translator–how much space did you give yourself?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I think probably six weeks at least, maybe more? I can't remember exactly, but…

Haley Radke: That's the thing. I don't want to gloss over that. Because, it wasn't like, “Oh!,” and then the next day, “Okay, we met up.” No, this is a big process.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. And I worked part-time when I was down there, but I really didn't have a lot going on. I said it–I mean, everything shifted. If I gave you what a week looked like before that trip and a week after–I also was grieving the loss of my brother that I talked about in the last episode.

So suddenly, I wasn't hanging out with him most of the time. Suddenly, my youngest (my baby brother) is living with us and I'm all messed up, right? And I don't really want him to see me like that. So I'm hiding in my room. But then he's like, “Where are you?” ” He's worried; he's so worried about me. I mean, he's never seen anyone... It's funny when I step back. He's never seen someone feel something and move through it, like in the moment, the way that I sob when I'm moving through something, I think it really jostles him like, “Are you gonna die?” And I'm like, “No, I'm just feeling my feelings. This is so normal.”

And Tyson (my partner), Tyson's just like sitting there, right? While I'm like (emotional crying), because he's just used to me. And my brother’s like, “Oh my God, are you okay?” And I'm like, “Yeah! I’m, you know, feeling all my feels.” So I didn't have a lot going on. I just–this was what I was dealing with. This was what I was talking about. This was what I was writing about. This was what I was feeling. And in and out of it, like we are in our process, I was also doing numbing stuff, and staring at Netflix. You can't be with it all the time, every second. But yeah, it was a while.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. And I think it's really helpful for us to see, really, a point where reunion could have just broken down for good. And then what you did–what you chose to do, instead of walking away. I think, so many of us, it's easier to just be like, “Hey, that’s it!” And just shut that box, because it's so painful to look at and… Yeah. Thank you for your wisdom in there. Is there anything else you wanna say to us about that processing? Anything else in this area before we wrap up?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I think, just that–and of course (I can't speak for everybody), I only know my mom. But I would say, trust the things that you do know, if you have done some of your work. I know that people can't hear things in an activated state, right? So it was weeks later before I even started having more conversations about it with her, and ultimately she did open up to my point of view. She did want to hear things. And even if her beliefs don't change, she was willing to listen. We still had difficult, important conversations. And so I think, and again–that's with that language barrier I was talking about, that's with the cultural barrier and the mental health barrier.

It's complicated. And you have to be tenacious about it. I think that to know that we may have to have the same conversation five times in five different ways, because there's so much that could be possibly getting lost in translation here. And I think, when we're raw, that's so hard, right? She sends me something and I don't know those words. And I put it through Google Translate and it hits me in the gut, right? I have to be willing to take a breath in that moment and say, “Can you say that another way? Is that really what you meant?” Instead of flipping out, which is so hard to do. I'm not, all of this is so effing hard. It's so hard, but I think it's ultimately worth it.

Haley Radke: I think one of the most insightful things that you shared with us today was just that line, that (we glossed over it), but you said, “I was in my story and she was in her story.”

And just how powerful that is to think about that, we’re sort of looking at everyone else thinking, “Oh, well, they know what’s going on for me.” But they don’t. People are in their own story.

I think that’s so valuable to pin that away in the back of your head so that you can come back and be like, Oh, they’re in their story and I’m in my story.

Thank you so much, Marta. I mean, truly, for inviting us into some very intimate and vulnerable moments in your story and going back to painful things—that comes at a cost. And so I'm very grateful that you're willing to share that with us, and I know it's gonna be so helpful to so many of us.

So, thank you. And where can we connect with you online?

Marta Isabella Sierra: My website for my practice is (old website link removed) and you can find an email for me on there (martasierralmhc [at] gmail [dot] com).

I did also want to say, since we were talking about IFS at the beginning, I wasn't thinking of doing any recommended resources. But I will put in a tiny plug for Jonathan Van Ness’ book Over the Top: A Raw Journey to Self-Love. His memoir came out (for anyone who watches “Queer Eye,” he is the hairstylist on “Queer Eye”). He has survived a tremendous amount of trauma. He has been in IFS therapy for years, and his memoir hugely integrates IFS and it's awesome. I listened to it on audiobook.

Haley Radke: Wow. That is so interesting. I had no idea. I think he has a podcast, too.

Marta Isabella Sierra: He has a podcast called Getting Curious. There's also an episode with Rick (Richard) Schwartz, the creator of IFS. It's so amazing to watch Dick interact with Jonathan's parts.

Haley Radke: Okay. Thank you for those recommendations. That is excellent. And I think– I love hearing you talk about IFS, because it's so unique. I mean, in my perspective it's so unique and I don't know. I haven't told you this I don't think, but I've heard from several listeners that they have started IFS since hearing your episodes.

Marta Isabella Sierra:Oh, that's so great.

Haley Radke:And not just that. I know of one who is a mental health professional and she started training in IFS, cuz she found it so interesting and helpful.

So you're making–Look at that! Marta: the Adoptees On IFS influencer.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Oh my God. I love it. I also have started working in adoption for the first time, since the last time I saw you. So since I've been back in Boston, I've been working at Boston Post-Adoption Resources, which is in Brookline, and we're doing really awesome work.

So if you're in the area, or in Massachusetts and you need resources, call us.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Don't you just feel so thankful when someone opens up and shares like that on the show? I truly am so grateful and I wouldn't be able to do the show without people being vulnerable, and teaching through their experiences. And also therapists who have this wealth of knowledge, and then actually applying it in real life.

This is a pretty valuable show. I'm just–I'm really grateful. Thank you so much again, Marta, for sharing with us. I truly—It's hard to know the impact of the podcast sometimes, because I only hear from a very small percentage of listeners (but I know there's thousands of you listening). But it's episodes like this and last week's that you just know, this will have an impact on someone else's reunion and helping them navigate. So, such an impact.

And if you want the show to continue and keep having an impact like this and hopefully helping save some reunions through understanding Marta's experience, and how you can learn from it, and you can look at, Ergh, what's wrong with mine? And how can we heal it? And work together to a new understanding of each other?

I mean, if you want that kind of value in the world, please consider partnering with my podcast and go to adopteeson.com/partner to support the show. It is so meaningful to me when you sign up. You're saying, “I want this show to exist in the world. I want other adoptees to have access to this information. Other family members, members of the constellation to be able to hear about the adoptee experience and hopefully get us on the same page.”

I just—I can't do the show without your help. If you have had that experience and have learned something from the podcast, please go to adopteeson.com/partner and check out all the ways you can support the show.

And right now, as I have been telling you for the last few weeks, we are doing an Adoptees On(ly) Reading Challenge. It's been so, so fun, and you can access that when you go to adopteeson.com/partner. Okay, thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

134 [Healing Series] Cross-Cultural Intergenerational Trauma

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/134

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we have a returning guest, [Marta Isabella Sierra]. Marta uses the Internal Family Systems model, which you may hear us refer to as IFS during the episode, and she taught us about IFS in episodes 69 and 71 of the podcast. If you want to go back and check those out, it's very interesting.

Today, Marta gives us an insider's view of her year-long trip to Colombia and what barriers there can be to a cross-cultural reunion. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, [Marta Isabella Sierra]. Hi, Marta.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Hi, Haley.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. A lot of time has passed since you were on the podcast and a lot of things have transpired. So can you give us a little snippet of your story? it's been like well over a year since you were on just to orient us to your story, and I'd love to hear what's been happening for you.

Marta Isabella Sierra: So I was born in Bogota, Colombia, and adopted by white parents from the States, grew up in Connecticut. That's some of what I had shared before. I started searching for my mom probably in 2015, 2016.

And found her in March of 2017. We're coming up on our three-year anniversary this March. And so that had pretty recently happened, I think, the last time that I recorded. But I think I had already gone down. I was about to leave, I think. When we last spoke.

Haley Radke: I think you were prepping for your trip. And you had shared that you had done DNA testing, but actually how you found her was through a private investigator, so that was pretty interesting.

Okay. So preparing to do a trip down there. How was that? What does a trip mean? Because it's a little different than what I pictured in my head.

Marta Isabella Sierra: I just want to back up and say the reason that we decided to go live down there, which is “we” as me and my partner and our two animals as well, we took our dog and our cat, really was because I unraveled after my first trip back after my reunion trip. I had a really, really hard time.

I just want to say that in case any of your listeners relate to that and just normalize that the first connection can be super dysregulating. I had a really hard time being away from my mom.

Haley Radke: So just to clarify, you mean, you went down to meet her and then as soon as you came back you were out of sorts.

Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Wow.

Marta Isabella Sierra: I was just crying every day. It felt so excruciating to be away from her. My IFS lens on it, right, is that my little baby part was in a panic, right?

Last time I left her it was 30 and a half years, and it's really hard to explain to the preverbal traumatized baby that lives inside of you that it's not the same thing that's happening. So I was having a pretty hard time. Yeah. So eventually my partner offered that maybe we need to just go spend some time down there.

Maybe that's what I needed. So we started looking into it, started planning, and yeah, the plan was, so a year, a little over a year, we figured it would be, not exactly a year, but yeah, we left May of, gosh, what would it be? 18? Yeah. Through July of 19.

Haley Radke: Wow. And what did you think when you were planning that trip?

I mean, that's sort of like a huge, that's not sort of, it's a huge life change. For a whole year. What were your expectations? Did you have any?

Marta Isabella Sierra: I don't think I had any. Actually, I don't think at that point I would've said I had any concrete expectations. I came to learn over the course of my time there that my secret wish was to be cut and pasted back into my family, right? What we all wish. I just want to be reacclimated and put back in. And it's just so impossible that that's how that's going to go. So I think it was many months, though, before I realized that.

I would say the first big adjustment was, compared to your reunion trip where everything's about you, right? It's almost like you're a baby again, right? Everyone's like, welcome to your new family, and you meet all the people and there's parties for you, and everything's “what do you want? Oh, you like fish, we'll make fish.” And you're so celebrated. Of course, living down there, everyone has their lives, they're doing stuff.

And just even navigating how much time are we spending together? Who's initiating that? Who's not? What does that look like? Feeling really uncertain about that all the time. Kind of some of my earlier memories of just navigating what is it to just be here and what do these relationships look like right now?

Haley Radke: So broad picture first, you are raised in the States. White family. And then you go to Colombia. What is that like for you, just culturally being in a different culture?

Marta Isabella Sierra: It was amazing. Mostly, I mean, it's different, of course, and I have lived other places. I have experienced culture shock before. There was certainly some of that.

But for me being a Colombian woman and being surrounded by Colombian people, being in the majority for the first time in my life is still something that's so comforting to me and so great. And then you have the layers of that though, right? That I'm easily still identified as “other” in an interesting way.

Even though I look like I belong there, it's like people can smell it on you. It's interesting. I had to tell my story multiple times a day. If I leave the house, I have to tell my story. People are always asking questions and I have a very American and bougie-looking dog that draws a lot of attention to herself.

So everyone's always asking about the dog, which sort of outed us as American pretty quickly. And people don't understand adoption there at all. So the questions would always be kind of interesting. I learned over time how to set boundaries and not tell every single cab driver my entire life story if I wasn't in the mood.

But I also tried to use it, when I was able, to educate a little bit about the process. But, yeah, it was really amazing to be immersed in my culture and also, of course, really hard. Not everything about it is amazing, of course.

Haley Radke: So where did you live when you were there?

Marta Isabella Sierra: We lived in Cali. My family lives in Cali, which is the third biggest city in Colombia, and we lived in a pretty downtown area in a neighborhood called San Fernando in Parque del Perro, which is a really nice little park. It's kind of touristy, really. There's lots of restaurants and things, but it was a nice area to live in.

We had a two bedroom apartment. We had a lot of space for not a lot of money. And yeah, that was its own decision, right? Whether to live with family or not. For people that have done this before, that's a big decision piece. And I think if I went down as a single person, I would've probably lived with my family, which would've been a whole completely different experience for sure.

I'm glad that that's how I did it. And that's what my experience was, even though I know in some ways that it meant a trade-off. We spoke English at home and so my Spanish didn't get as strong as I would've liked it to get if I were completely immersed in it.

And with technology, like, I was still watching Netflix in English on my computer. So I wasn't as immersed as I might have been in a different situation. But aside from that, the support of having my fur babies and my person with me was just incalculable in how much that helped me navigate a lot of grief, really.

It was just another layer of grief work because it's all around me every day right? What I lost.

Haley Radke: So here's what I'm picturing in my head. You go and you're with your family for a meal or something, and then you go home to your apartment with your partner and your animals, and then you're like on your own again.

What is that feeling like? Even knowing you can go back again and see them tomorrow? But just even that little separation?

Marta Isabella Sierra: That piece felt okay and felt kind of needed. Even on a short little trip, my first trip, it was like, okay, I have to go back to my Airbnb, right? I need a moment.

So it was actually really grounding. I came to really love my apartment and feel safe there and need to go there sometimes to just bring it back down a level because everything's so intense.

Haley Radke: I guess I don't yet have the same experience. I'm not transracially adopted, transculturally, transnationally. I don't have any of that. And so reunion for me as a domestic adoptee looks so very different.

Like you literally moved countries to build this relationship. Can you teach us a little bit about the challenges and the things that maybe someone like me wouldn't even have considered or known about?

Marta Isabella Sierra: It's all this little stuff. And what I came to learn really is that Spanish is one of three language barriers, I would say. And the second one out of those two is definitely culture and misunderstandings about that. And even if we understood exactly what the other person was saying, like literally saying, it was still confusing.

And I'm really lucky to have had some great supports down there, including some bilingual friends and a translator that I worked with who also helped me with some documents and legal kinds of things, but she would come around and help with translating, and I found that ultimately more what she was translating than Spanish was cultural stuff that I didn't understand.

A really easy small example is that Colombians put themselves together pretty specifically. Colombian women, especially, like no matter the socioeconomic status, you can see the difference, right? But even a woman with not a lot of money probably, her sneakers match, her shirt matches her earrings, and her hair's done and her makeup's done. It might not be done the same way as someone that's higher class, but that's what you do. And that's not who I am.

Haley Radke: Are you a little bit of a casual girl, Marta? Sorry, I should say casual woman.

Marta Isabella Sierra: I lived in Seattle. I came from Seattle. So even the transition from Boston to Seattle, the American listeners will think this funny, was a downshift for me and a letting go of what's appropriate in public.

And I just don't care. And certainly if I'm emotionally dysregulated, right? Like, I don't care at all. And so some early conflicts with my mom would be about her asking me questions I didn't understand why she was asking me, or criticizing how I showed up, or my hair?

And, but her assumption sometimes, like I'd wear a lot of messy buns. I have really long hair and I mostly wear it up in a messy bun on the top of my head. And her assumption if I showed up like that was that I didn't shower that day and, like, why aren't you taking care of yourself? And it was like, what? I showered like before I left. I don't understand.

So we just had to navigate that one piece. But it was, of course, being criticized by your mom. It’s a trigger. So it was difficult. At first I didn't understand. And finally we had to come to this piece of her belief is you put yourself together and you look nice because it's nice for the other people.

And my view is I don't care about the other people. I'm not going to do something for other people that's not authentic to me, right? And that's specific to me, but it's pretty American, too, I think in some ways. And that's an easy in-way into that. Colombia is a very Catholic, patriarchal country and that's difficult for me.

I strongly identify as a feminist and there's a lot of things that are norms there that were difficult for me, and I would say this was one layer of it, right? That as a woman, I owe it to the world to be like nicely packaged every day and be something that's nice to look at. And I just was never gonna tow that line.

But we had those conversations and she came to accept that about me. But you know, still, the preference is still under there that I would make more of an effort.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. That's a really great example. I'm kind of getting a picture here. Do you have another example of something that was just really lost in translation?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Well, everything's in its own little compartmentalized box. Colombia has been through a lot of war, a lot of really terrible times. I was born in the middle of that. There's a lot of us that were born and adopted out during the time in which there was so much violence and other things happening in our country.

And so anyone around my generation, when we're coming back, our families that were left there experienced all of that. It deeply affected them. Besides other legacies of intergenerational trauma around single moms and not being able to move up in socioeconomic status sometimes, no matter how hard you work. The caste system there is pretty set.

It's hard to advance. The economy is difficult. So there's lots of complex political and socioeconomic stuff going on. And then there's this history of war and trauma that's so normalized. People that visit Colombia are like, Colombians are so amazing, they're so happy. They always have a smile on their face.

That's a survival mechanism. There's a lot underneath that. That's how we survived. That's how my people were strong and kept moving forward. But in that, there's this denial of the trauma and of things that have happened, and things just kind of get put in neat little boxes and left there.

So, one example is my mother's father, my grandfather passed six or so years before I found her, my abuelo, and the story that I got about him at first. I had a lot of grief because he was presented by my mom as this great man and he was a professional musician his whole life. And I always sang and danced and did theater and so I saw this photo of him and I just grieved for that, that I had this amazing abuelo that I would never get to meet.

It was a solid many months in to being down there that I started to hear other stories, that he was pretty abusive, that he was unfaithful, that my mom's older sibling actually is not from my grandmother. And that there's more, and that who knows how many more there are, right? And all of these different things that I didn't hear at first because it's just not normal.

It's not normal to share all the things, you just share the things that are more comfortable and everything else goes in little boxes. So I rarely got all of the information upfront, which for me, and I think for a lot of adopted people, it's: Tell me the truth! Like we wanna know the truth.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Marta Isabella Sierra: So what is truth? What's a cultural definition of truth? It's just all so layered and so more than anything, this affected my relationship with my brother, my oldest brother who's younger than me. If you had asked me six months in to my time down there who I was closest to in my family, I would've said him.

We were really close for a lot of reasons. He's a little separate from my family for the reasons that I'll tell you in a moment, but also he just lives separate from them. He has a partner of 11 or so years who has a daughter, so he kind of has a stepdaughter. They have two dogs. The only other person in my family that had dogs. Once or twice a week we would go down to where he lives, just 20 minutes, half hour in a cab, and take the dogs to the park.

And I just spent the most time with him, I would say, week to week. And we're close in age. There's lots of things that we have in common. He was just really, really special to me. And there has always been this lingering story about if he had a daughter or not, and the story that he had always told me was that he didn't believe that it was his daughter. This happened when he was 16.

And so in April of last year, it was time for us to take this big trip to Llanos. That's where my family is from. It's out in the eastern plains. It's a pretty big journey and it's a very different part of Colombia. And I was going to meet her.

I was going to meet my niece, and I just needed to know the truth from him before I went and before this stopped being a concept and started being a real person. I had also kind of gone to battle about it for him, and I felt protective of him because this specific topic had caused so many rifts in my family.

And it all came spilling out when I saw him before the trip, that this is his daughter, that he refuses to look at any of it. He won't take a test, he won't be in her life. He sort of blames her for the sins of her mother. They were 16 when they were together. I think she was maybe not good to him and possibly cheated on him. And he blames her for it.

And so she's not being raised by her mother either. My niece is raised by her maternal grandmother, so she's essentially an in-family adoptee, right? So I go there and I meet this girl and I fall head over heels in love with her. She's 14, she's super smart. She doesn't understand why this is happening to her. She has a lot of questions and there's so much vulnerability there.

But she's tough and I see a lot of myself in her. And I just felt bonded to her really quickly and we had a lot of talks about it. And, she's a teenager, so she didn't spill her guts or anything, but I made sure that she knew that I'm here for her for always and for whatever she needs.

And so even since coming back, I've just taken a little bit more of an active role in her life and she's really important to me. So after that trip, my relationship with my brother really split. I couldn't accept it. It just was so painful for me that he could turn her away when he had been so loving and accepting to me.

I mean, it's still, I mean, obviously I'm getting choked up talking about it. It still doesn't make sense to me. Emotionally and logically in my clinician brain it makes total sense. Whatever happened with my niece's mother was traumatic to him. He's put it in a box and he won't touch it and that's really normal there.

That's how you survive, right? You just keep moving forward. And, but it cost him so much. I think it cost him a lot and it cost him our relationship, which in his eyes, I've abandoned him. But I just had to do what was best for me. But that's a moment where I do have compassion about why he's doing it.

And I still ultimately decided to draw a boundary. Because it felt, for me personally, it feels disloyal to her to not hold him accountable for his actions. And it breaks my heart. I still miss him every day. So yeah, that's a big piece of my experience down there with trauma and with the denial of it.

And one of the last things he said to me when we were communicating over text was, let me know, let me know when you've resolved your traumas. It all got put on that I have a problem with this because of my trauma, instead of any ownership.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. I'm so sorry. That sounds really challenging and I think this is so fascinating how you describe that in Colombia they just don't really get the concept of adoption when you're talking to strangers and whatnot.

And yet, you go down there, you are this professionally trained person and you can see trauma all over. How is that for you? And in general, or more specifically if you want to talk about your family, but even just in broad strokes, just looking at the culture?

You talked about how they've had all of these challenges in war and things, and I know that, especially, I mean I'm living in Canada, it feels like such a privileged nation, that I can just go to therapy and it's so different. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Marta Isabella Sierra: Again, it's just, there's so much going on underneath this surface. There's this image, that now I'm wishing I had pulled it up before we started talking, but about cultural awareness. It's like the image of an iceberg and I just really liked it because it talked about the top things, right? Like foods and the flag and the different pieces of it.

And then under the water were all of these other pieces that make up any given culture, right? Which is like histories of trauma and roles in the family. What do those roles look like? What are the responsibilities? And just all of this under-stuff, right?

I would say that there's just a lot of pain and people in pain that don't even understand. I'm super empathic and so I would feel everything. So like me saying my apartment was my safe space, like sometimes I would just get way too overloaded being around people and I had to go home and reground because I always feel what people are feeling even if they're not aware of it, which was a lot. It's a lot of information to get when no one wants to hear the feedback really.

And another example would be my baby brother who's my world. He has struggled his whole life with depression and anxiety, but has no words for it, right? And so we would have really deep conversations about that and about him starting to understand what it is. Why shame is a very, very common language there. A way of communicating, a way of controlling. It's a lot of shame that goes on and certainly in my family as well.

And so we've been naming that for him. There's a reason that you feel this way. This is when you're spoken to in this manner, over time this is what it creates inside of you. This might be part of what you're feeling. And I think he found that extremely helpful and has made a lot of changes in his life to take care of himself in a different way because of the conversations that we had. I'm really proud of him.

Haley Radke: I love that part. Like the influence you could bring down there and to your family and just your wisdom and sharing that with them.

Marta Isabella Sierra: But it is new information, like you were saying, like it's new information to them. It's something they don't have access to. They don't get any education around it.

And nobody goes to a therapist down there unless you have a serious psychiatric condition. Like your medical doctor has told you that you need to go. It's a completely different mental health culture and it's just not talked about.

So you had said what a great thing that you could teach that I think is so complicated. Not just that role, but specifically add on the layer of being an adoptee, right? Because I already have parts of me that feel responsible for other people.

And so you add that piece in, right? That I'm coming back into my family system, that I'm viewed as having more access to a lot of things, right? Financially, but also education, all of these things. And so there is a view that I'm to make an impact. So there's an overt feeling of that.

And then there's my own internal stuff of I'm supposed to make everyone's lives better. That gets so sticky, I think, and I have a lot of feelings of failure with my other brother. I feel like I failed.

And because I used my own story. I used research, I used all of this is what's going on for her. Is this really what you want to do? And I couldn't break the wall of his protective system that will not go near this trauma of his, right?

And so I do have parts of me that feel like I failed. That feel like I'm supposed to heal my family and like I failed in that manner. And so it has pluses and negatives, I think. But there's definitely a lot of my family that I have made an impact on and that does feel good, but I just want to name that has two sides to it and that I think when we go back into these family systems that have been dealing with so much for so long and that we can have that wish, that's a great wish, and we can certainly do some good.

But I had to ask at what cost at a point.

Haley Radke: Well, I thank you for sharing that because I've gotten questions from multiple adoptees who have higher access, they're more wealthy and then they will reunite. And then there's this expectation from the original family: oh great, you're gonna help us out of this.

And so I imagine that boundaries would be so challenging in that situation. And then even my question to you was, well, you're this therapist and you can come. But then I'm trying to be like, oh wait, you put yourself in Marta's shoes. That's not your role in the family.

You're not there to go and fix everybody. And even as a therapist, you're not counseling your friends and family here either, right? That's not a thing. So yeah, you got some layers there. Holy smokes.

Marta Isabella Sierra: So I have a little cousin that is being raised by my sister. They took her out of a bad situation and my sister is raising her. She's seven now. My little che, she's my little sweetie pie. She has experienced a lot of trauma in her young life. We're not exactly sure what, but that's part of why my sister took custody of her.

And I would be called in to kind of weigh in on things around that occasionally, which was always interesting. And I don't work with children. I don't specialize in working with children. I barely know how to talk to children in a casual setting, if we're being honest. So I didn't really have anything to offer clinically other than she needs to see a therapist.

But there's resistance around that and it's not the easiest thing to find, even if you are open to it. But her suspected abuser is her father and he is in Llanos. That's where I was talking about. So part of that trip was also that she was going to be around him. And I had a real problem with this, of course, being who I am and being a therapist and I had many conversations about it.

Ultimately, I had to let it go because I'm not her guardian. I don't get to make these decisions for her, and it's very complicated. But the view is she's never alone with him. So there's like this protective element, right? We're watching her. Don't worry, nothing will happen.

Nothing new will happen. And she's asking about him. She wants to see him, which I'm not around for that. I'm sure that's true, of course. Why wouldn't she want to see her father? We know that children in the face of tremendous abuse will still want their parents, of course.

And so their view is, yeah, well, that was a long time ago. He's changed a lot. And also a little tinge of that's just how men are. There's this acceptance of abuse from men in my country that upsets me deeply. And so, yeah, I had to let go. It's not my decision. I've said my piece, they listened to me and they ultimately decided what they're going to decide.

And so that's, again, a piece of yeah, a man did something horrible. It doesn't register. It's just so normalized. Similar with the stories about my grandfather and there's just so much around infidelity, around physical violence, around sexual violence. It's just what else is news today?

Haley Radke: Well, I thank you for walking us through a ton of different insights that you had through your over a year there. Year and a half, almost 14 months?

*Marta Isabella Sierra:** 14 months.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay, man I'm struggling today. My goodness. Okay. Thank you for walking us through those insights. You've had well over a year you spent with your family and in Colombia, and I think this will really help a lot of adoptees that are considering searching and reunion, especially when it's in a different country and not sure what to expect. And I think we don't hear about these things in depth enough, so I really appreciate your thoughts on that.

Marta Isabella Sierra: I think that the other thing that I realized through going and being down there is that I think the whole periods of honeymoon and transition into regular reunion, when you're talking about international adoption, are so skewed because there's not a lot of physical time together.

And so I think the honeymoon could go on, I don't know how long, but I think that mine cracked open around April of last year. This big thing happened and then in the aftermath of it, I was like, oh, I think my honeymoon just ended. Like I hadn't thought I was out of it. I had more identified it with that kind of first three weeks, intense infatuation, can't-breathe-without- you kind of phase.

But actually I think it's like that first part of a relationship until you learn these are full human beings, which for me even was many months in to living there.

Haley Radke: I can't imagine. I mean, even as you were talking about staying down there and not knowing if you're going to get invited to this or are you going to see them then, like all that kind of real life.

Wow. It's just, I don't know. You had a huge life change in that time period. And I can't wait to hear more about what you learned. I'm so glad that you're coming back and you're going to talk to us a little bit more on the next Healing episode, a little bit more about your experience, and I can't wait.

Okay. In the meantime, let's press pause till we get to that episode next week. And where can we connect with you online?

Marta Isabella Sierra: My practice is (old link removed) and that's pretty much the best way to get in touch with me. There's an email on there. (email martasierralmhc [at] gmail [dot] com)

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing with us today.

Next week Marta is going to be back on the podcast with us, as I said, and make sure you're subscribed because you don't want to miss that episode. She shares some very intimate and vulnerable things she experienced while in Colombia, and whether you're in reunion or not, there are some giant takeaways that we can learn from her experience and apply to whatever we have going on.

So I really appreciate her sharing and her willingness to open up that way. You don't always get that from therapists especially, there's so much of a “you're the client, I'm the therapist” kind of barrier with a lot of professionals in that capacity. So I really appreciate Marta opening up in that way.

And, I mean, wow, how much more valuable info can you get than someone who is literally living out how to do this, how to do this in a healthy way. I'm so appreciative. The other thing I want to say is, thank you so much to my monthly supporters. You guys know I say this every week, but it's honestly the truth.

I would not be able to do this show without you. If you want Adoptees On to keep going and helping adoptees around the world navigate reunion, and search and rejection and all the things we talk about regularly, please support the show. You're saying with your money that you think it's valuable and you want it to continue.

And I have some big dreams of where I want the podcast to go and I can only do that with your help. So if you want to say yes and say yes, I think the show is valuable, and you want to join in in supporting it, go to adopteeson.com/partner and you can find out all the levels of support and the bonuses.

There's another weekly podcast that we do, Adoptees Off Script. Right now we are in the Adoptee Reading Challenge 2020 mode. It's so fun. We're reading adoptee-authored books in a variety of categories, and I am just really loving it. So adopteeson.com/partner to help the show continue to exist in this world.

And I'm just so thankful for those of you who shared the show with a friend. Maybe you know someone who is a transracial, transnational adoptee and they are searching right now and things are looking promising, they might find. This would be such a great episode to share with them, something to think about ahead of time before you're in it.

And I don't know how you like to listen to the podcast, but I love listening on my phone and I just download podcasts right onto my phone. And so if I'm out doing stuff on the, I was gonna say on my commute, you know, to my basement. No, but if I'm driving to the grocery store or whatever, it's with me, it's already downloaded and I can listen to whatever I want on my podcast app.

It is so easy. I love Overcast. But if you have an iPhone, there's a podcast app built right into your phone and if you have an Android, you can listen on Spotify. It's very easy. Just search Adoptees On and if you're sharing the show with someone, you can show them.

You can be the podcast evangelist and show them exactly how you like to listen. I appreciate that so much because sometimes that's a bit of a barrier for people. So thank you for doing that, and so much talking. Why is Haley talking so much today? Okay. I'm gonna stop, but I just want to say thank you so much for listening and let's talk again next Friday.

132 [Healing Series] Advocacy

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/132

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Haley Radke: This show is listener-supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to Adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we are talking about public activism and advocacy, the costs that's associated with it, how to hold our boundaries. This is such a great conversation. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Melanie Chung-Sherman. Welcome, Melanie.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Hi. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Haley Radke: I am so excited we get to talk again because last time we were talking about microaggressions and emotional labor, and there's so many themes about working in advocacy and speaking up publicly about adoption. And you were challenging us on a number of things. I really just want to continue that conversation with you. I see you posting regularly on your public Facebook page, challenges about adoption, different adoption topics, and racism, and all sorts of things. And when I see those things, Melanie, honestly, I'm just like, ‘Whoa, how is she taking on this giant job and replying to the comments and all of that?’ That's a lot. When we talk about emotional labor, that's a lot. You're paying a price. So do you want to talk about that a little bit? What made you decide to challenge us in that way and really pay the price for speaking up publicly?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: It's been an organic process because that's always been part of who I am. In general, I mean, even from elementary school, I would be the person advocating for individuals who may not have had the same access to rights. Like, I remember I even had petitions going on about things that were happening about the teachers.

Haley Radke: You know what, that doesn't even surprise me. That doesn't surprise me in one bit.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Especially growing up in this pretty much all-white community, and this Asian kid was challenging the status quo. Another thing that drew me into social work and into the profession as well, because it just kind of fit, I'm like, ‘Oh, not only is it backed by a code of ethics, but there's a whole group of people, they do that professionally. This is fun! And I get paid for it!’ But more than that, it’s coming from a space, that I would look and I couldn't find the integration of these observations. I couldn't find books, and I couldn't find –particularly when it came to the intersection between mental health work, my years of working in child welfare, from administrative positions, to case management, and then as a therapist– I kept seeing the themes and it would always feel siloed to me. And so even when I post, it would be nothing that I wouldn't share out publicly, verbally, or things that I haven't shared in other circles with individuals.

And again, I think social media has allowed a different kind of platform, but there's also then a dual responsibility. Not only as a licensed social worker where I think about code of ethics and really where my boundaries are professionally, and trying to stay in my lanes, but then also pushing up against what the status quo may be. And I really try to hold a responsibility, not as a provocateur. It really is coming– I've been hearing about this and seeing this for a very long time. Particularly when I'm listening to clients and loved ones. We have a really unique space in our adopted community, because adoption is a salient theme, and that's kind of where it ends. Because so many of us have different lived experiences, so I'm fascinated by the nuances of that.

And then what does that mean within our community and then in the broader community as well? Because so much of my formal education, and just my interest in terms of reading, it really has been then looking at, ‘Well, how has this impacted– How is this policy? How do these historically –the laws, funding, all of these things– all come back to oppression?’ And when we really then dig underneath that, we can start deconstructing even the things within adoption. Because adoption really lives and breathes in the world that, as I was sharing from the last podcast, holds a hierarchy of oppressive power and privilege standards that trickle all the way down.

And so just moving into a space like, ‘Oh gosh, well, the intersectionality within our community is broad and diverse, but it's also pretty thematic. And it's pretty predictable.’ And so learning about that, I'm like, ‘Oh, I can't just keep that in, to myself,’ because these are the things I'm sharing, between colleagues and clients, I'm just curious about. So sometimes it's also a space of going, ‘Huh, I'm gonna put it out into the universe because I don't think I'm the only one who's been thinking about that.’ You know, there's so many other amazing researchers and clinicians, and academics, and activists and advocates who are doing amazing work in our community, adoptee-identified people. And so I also want to give cred to them because their voice also inspires mine and other activists through the years. It comes at a cost, and that's where we have to be really mindful. Because there's times I'm just exhausted by it. But I know that I'm not the only one holding that, and having the supports of other friends, particularly in our community, has really been a life-changer and a lifesaver. Because there's very few, I think, that function in that space. But it's definitely not off-limits to anyone else who chooses to do that. I think that people have to be really mindful of the cost.

Haley Radke: Well, before we go into the cost, yeah, wow, I'm curious because you were saying that you share publicly the things that you have shared in person, with people or at an event when you're speaking. That's what I'm sort of getting from what you said. How did you first decide which pieces of your story were going to be accessible out that chain? So, that you've told in person, or on your Facebook page? Because I think there's a trickle there that can easily get into a waterfall, that you can't take it back. Especially on the internet, right? It's out there, it's out there. So that's peace, like, to make the conscious decision of ‘What part of my story am I going to share and at which level?’ If it's between friends, or public, out there forever, right?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: I think the boundary is really important and I think that it's been actually through mistake and trial and error– So, I started working within adoption almost, I'll age myself, about 20 years ago. And I was young, I was naive, and I was not out of the fog, per se. And so I had overshared quite a bit at the behest– and also the pleasure. I would get the affirmations and accolades from agencies. I was the quote-unquote “good adoptee”. And it wasn't until I went to grad school back from MSW, and then started working at Child Protective Services out of Dallas, I was an investigator for a number of years, and it changed my narrative. It changed my life. And so the things that I wish I could retract now. The internet wasn't as prolific as it is now. I do see that sometimes, particularly with those who are just moving into the space where they're finding their voice. So I'm also thankful it wasn't as prolific, the internet.

But at the same time, the decision consciously now, that what I would share online is the same thing that I would share in person, and that I stand by, or that I've written, or I've had materials published, things that– I can literally stand in front of my children, and hold that narrative with both pride and –it doesn't have to be in this beautiful, perfect package– also in a real, honest and authentic space. Through a lot of private work, through my own therapy and through the support of loved ones and chosen family, I can now share this out in a much more constructive and also, I think, integrated way, that ‘Yeah, this is a truth and this is a part of my life.’

But it's also then, underneath that, undergirding that, there's a message of, ‘In what ways will we bend the walls?’ I really try to be conscious that the things that are shared out that are personal, it's not so centered on my own experience or voice. As in: ‘Because Melanie's a Korean adoptee and she says this, it must be for all.’ No, no. I really want people then to think on a much more dynamic and complex level, and then kind of see where that goes. And I'm mindful when I share that out, whether I'm speaking in front of an audience or I'm speaking just one-on-one.

So I think that's really important: finding the balance between what you want to share out personally to get a point across, that doesn't lend itself where you begin to lose that part of your own story and identity authentically; that it is my authentic parts that I've done a lot of work on, so I can share it out, not because of the things that happen that I have to. And that's why I draw a line, particularly when people ask really personal questions, particularly if they're asking about my background, or like my [unclear: sounds like “adopt”; could be “adult” or “adoptive”] family. Or I'm very private when it comes to my children: “Not at all. That is their narrative.” And I think for adoptees, most of us are really attuned to the protection and privacy of that, that ‘My storylines are mine’. And I have to be responsible and own that: of what comes in and then also how it goes out. But that's come through a lot of mishap and mistake, naivety, impetuousness. Like, there was this space of, like, ‘I gotta share it. People have to know.’

Haley Radke: Well, one of the things you said actually in our last episode when we were talking about microaggressions, you mentioned that it can be, I think the word you used was “intoxicating” in the beginning. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Absolutely. When your story is validated, and it becomes real– at least for myself coming out of the fog, I was thinking I was all alone in this. And then I had a tremendous privilege and opportunity to hold these spaces in terms of training, and speaking at conferences, and doing all these other events in adoption. It can be very intoxicating, and it was. I would get the immediate validation or feedback or “You know so much about adoption, and you do all these things!”-- to a point, and then it becomes toxic. Because without really sitting back and A) taking care of self and B), really being then held accountable– My other loved ones would be like, “You know, I just, I noticed these things that–” It was loved ones, it was also friends within the adopted community, close friends who would come back and say, “When you're sharing this out, I just have a question about that.” And so actually, not in terms of confrontation, but in terms of love and kindness, to go, “When you share that, I have questions about that. What is the motivation behind that?”

So I've been really privileged in my life. I don't want a lot of “yes” people. I want people who are going to challenge what that's going to be and look like, and hold us to a really high standard when we have these platforms. We have to –when we have the privilege to do that within our own community, but particularly out in the broad community– we have tremendous responsibility of what we do with our words, with our actions, with our story. Because I'm also thinking now as a parent. Whatever I put out there and how I share this, the legacy of adoption, and the legacy of how this gets downloaded, also impacts generations that follow. Because it's out there on the internet. This will be out there. And so I really hold that as well, to try to balance what we say and do.

Haley Radke: I appreciate that, yeah. I appreciate you saying that.

You used that word “cost”. “There's a cost to this.” How much does it cost you? No, tell us a little bit what you mean by that, because I think we probably have an idea, but maybe not the whole picture.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: I'll say this, it's one thing when I could talk about safe topics like attachment and trauma, and really kind-of pushing back related to the pathology, especially with adoptees and labeling and names. It was another thing when I started talking about integrating race and racism, and sexuality and identity. That was almost a line for many. I lost friends, people I thought were friends. And I've also lost speaking gigs. I've lost credibility in some circles.

At one point it was intoxicating, those spaces within adoption communities where I could get out and be this platform or voice, as that adoptee that seemed to have it all together. And now, “You're talking about oppression? We can't talk about that. You just stay in your lane and do this.” So the cost has been emotional, it's been mental, it's been physical. It's come at a physical cost as well, where I've got to be really mindful, and I'm very protective of my time and energy because that can quickly get away from –myself at least, but I've seen that particularly in our community, of just doing, doing, doing, and not sitting in the space of discomfort, not sitting in the loss. Because that cost has been loss. And I don't know about you, but I, for myself, I don't like loss. I don't like complicated grief!

Haley Radke: Have we had enough loss? Have we had enough? Come on!

Melanie Chung-Sherman: It’s been a lot. And so when we speak about these complex subjects, it comes at a cost of relationship, and that is what I've grieved the most. That's times that I'm scared the most, of things that I want to say or put in writing, and then I'll delete it or I'll hold it. And many of those, even posting or even talking through it, I'll practice it out with someone else, for accountability. Because, ‘Am I in an energy, am I in a healthy space?’ that I can handle the pushback, and I can possibly even handle interpersonal connection that's going to be challenged. That's been hard. That's been really hard.

Haley Radke: Do you have any thoughts on this, maybe talking to an adoptee who has been online a little bit, kind-of putting their toe in the advocacy space and speaking up here and there. Do you have any words of wisdom for someone like that, and maybe challenges to those of us who have been in it for a while, but maybe our boundaries aren't quite firmed up yet? Thoughts on that?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: I think for those who are just starting, having a really good confluence of friends and peers and loved ones who can really not only love and support you, but also hold the words, not in a space of pushback, but accountability. If you have others with lived experience, you can really speak into that. One of the things that has been a life saver has been mentorship, really seeking out mentorship for those who have gone before. And that’s been everything, just hearing from others who have been in the roles of activism and advocacy, particularly in our communities. And sometimes that's hard, because at least for Korean adoptees, the first wave started a couple decades ago, but it really started taking off in the nineties. So it's been harder to find other mentors outside of a generational lived experience. But there are many, so I look at that in awe. And I also seek out counsel and wisdom. And we don’t have to agree –I'm not asking for agreement in all things, because that's pretty boring– but I think, a consensus of just mutual respect and wisdom. So those who are just starting, find other people that you feel like, ‘I wanna sit at their feet and just know.’ I've had amazing mentors, particularly women of color, who've been doing this work and can really just, “Sit down. You're gonna be tired. How are you taking care of yourself?” Like, “In what ways are you protecting your family? Are you protecting your voice?” Because even in this –we've talked about loss– I have to share that I've also gained amazing friendships, and amazing allyships, and those who are accomplices, in ways that I know if I stayed in the same space a couple years ago, I would've never been exposed to those with this hunger and passion– of all legs of the triad and outside in the community. And so that has been remarkable. So even if it comes at a cost, there are also great gains and we've gotta find that balance.

And for those who are doing this who are tenured, or battle-worn, we talked about the self-compassion and taking care of self, but then also constantly learning. And I think also then opening up, always giving the credit to those who've come before. And I think that's really, at least for myself, that's really important that we are giving voice to so many different perspectives. We can all learn and grow, and integrate new kinds of ideas and materials. I think because, not just as a transracial adoptee, but our narrative as adoptive people, we can move and navigate into a lot of different spaces and really sit in spaces –that many other people may find uncomfortable or unknown to them– in a really genuine way. And I think that opens up a lot of opportunity to really get to know someone else's story outside of our own without defense, really just sitting there. And that's what I encourage for all of us to do. I have to remind myself to do that cuz we can get really entrenched and ‘It's gotta be this way. I've been working so hard! I can't believe they're saying that! This is, oh–!’ and get really defensive. And I think that's also coming from, at least for myself, my own lived experience of: I'm waiting for the microaggression or I'm waiting for them to aggress, versus: I'm sitting here and I'm listening and then I'm going to take that in.

And then continuing to build healthy boundaries for yourself. It's okay to say no.

Haley Radke: Oh, yes. Love that one! The one other thought I wanted to share, you kind-of triggered this for me right at the beginning of this conversation, was just talking about how there are other people doing the same work. I'm reminded that when we do need to take that pause and kind of step back and just be like, ‘I just need to peace out for a minute,’ that the others fill the gap for us, right? And vice versa. When someone else is on their social media break, others will step in. So it's not all on your two shoulders.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Oh, it's too much. And I think that's part of the healthy boundaries. And here's the thing, there's no monopoly on need. That's really a psychotic idea, like, ‘Without my voice–!’ There is no monopoly on that. It's there, we got it.

Haley Radke: That's the twist on “there's room at the table for everyone,” because there's no monopoly on need, that's so good.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: You'll find where your voice is valued, and then remind yourself of the value of your voice. And part of that is also rest and rejuvenation, restoration, as much as it is in engaging. And then holding whatever balance that you need to take care of. Because right now I'm on a social meeds cleanse and it feels good. I'm just holding multiple things and it's okay. You're like, ‘Okay!’ I really respect when people do that. And it's more than social meeds cleanse, it's, like, cleanse on books and the things that I am literally digesting on a daily basis. And really being mindful, not shutting out the world and not pretending it doesn't exist. The more work that we do, particularly in advocacy and activism, I was sharing with you before, it's in the forefront of my mind, and the drumbeat in the background. And sometimes I have to remember it's okay if it goes in the drumbeat, in the background, so I can be present for the things that I love and the people I love. Because when I can do that, I can fill myself up and be ready for the next thing, and invite that.

Haley Radke: I love that. Thank you. That was a perfect note to wrap up on. Thank you so much, Melanie, for your wisdom in this area.

I'm assuming when this gets posted, you'll be off that social media cleanse, so where can we connect with you online?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: I may be back by then!

Haley Radke: You'll be back, you'll be back!

Melanie Chung-Sherman: You can find me on Facebook on Melanie Chung-Sherman, LCSW, PLLC. You can just Google that, and that's my professional page. Also, mcscounsel.com is my website, and then Instagram, @mcscounsel. And I'm not as ‘on’ on Instagram. I'm pretty specific in where I'm going to share out, and where I have the bandwidth lately.

Haley Radke: I've learned so much from the conversations Melanie is having over on her Facebook page, so make sure you're following her there. That's my extra plug for that.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Thanks.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Oh my goodness. So much good information from Melanie. I just value her insights so, so much, and I hope that you will re-listen to this episode. I don't say that every time we have a therapist on the show –I do a lot of the times, I feel like, in the Healing Series– but this week's and last week's, especially, I think Melanie hits on so many very deeply important topics. It can be easy for our brains to just kind-of scoot on past those points and go on to the next thing she's talking about, but I think there's a lot of things here that would be really helpful to revisit, for myself personally. And, you know, we're in this new year, 2020. Maybe you've thought about, ‘I don't know, maybe it's the year that I'm gonna make my first therapist appointment. Maybe I'm going to actually look at this adoption stuff a little deeper. Maybe I am going to join up with a state that's looking at changing some laws about adoptee access to original birth certificates…’ I don't know, maybe you've got some big plans going on. I challenge you, don't let this stuff settle down to the bottom of life.

It's easy for busy work and taking care of your family or friends, or just you doing whatever, going to work, whatever you do on the daily, it's very easy to let these deep things kind of just set at the bottom and to just let them go by. But just, can I challenge you? Don't do that. If 2020 is your year to take care of yourself, to actually look at doing some activism or advocacy or whatever that looks like for you, don't let these things that you hear from amazing experts every week, don't let that just settle to the bottom and don't do anything about it. Maybe it's the time to re-listen and take some notes and think, ‘Okay, what is my next step here?’ And I would encourage you to find an adoptee adoption-competent therapist if you have the financial means to do so. That's some of the best money I've spent, truly, in my healing journey.

So anyway, thank you so much for listening. I want to thank my monthly supporters: without you, this show would not continue to exist. There are some fun new things, new changes, new things happening over on Patreon, so I will be telling you about that coming up soon. If you want to partner with me monthly, Adopteeson.com/partner helps keep the show going. And I appreciate so many of you who have signed up and said, “Yes, I think Adoptees On is important and I want it to continue to exist in this world.” So thank you so much for that. Thanks again for listening, and let's talk again next Friday.

131 [Healing Series] Microaggressions

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/131

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Haley Radke: This show is listener-supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to Adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today we are talking about microaggressions. Oh my goodness, this is so interesting. Okay, let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Melanie Chung-Sherman. Welcome, Melanie.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Thank you. I'm so excited to be on. I've been following your work.

Haley Radke: Aw, thank you. I'm so, so joyful to have you on the show today. I can't believe it's your first time on. I already said this is embarrassing to me that you haven't been on before, so welcome. And since it is your first time, would you mind just sharing a little bit about your story with us so we can kind-of get to know you a little bit?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Right. Well, I am a transracial, international adoptee and one of the end of the first wave of Korean adoptees. I was adopted in the late 70s and placed in the land of gazillion adoptees in Minneapolis, MN, and my adoptive family moved my brother and I and my youngest brother down to Texas, my youngest brother being biologically born to my parents and my younger brother is also KAD –Korean adoptee– as well. So I was raised in pretty much the Deep South, outside of Fort Worth, TX, and have really established my roots and wings there, out of all places. Where I feel both at home, and then sometimes as foreign or international or– just in terms of my own lived experiences, I’m walking in the world holding a lot of different identities, particularly as a woman of color, an immigrant, and a transracial adoptee in the South. And that's really framed the work that I do today, and the work that I do within the adoption community, and advocacy outside the adoption community with more marginalized populations.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's got to be a varied experience you've had there, to say the least. Can you just tell us, just briefly, how you decided to go into social work and then into therapy, and just a little bit about your work in that area?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: I think like for many –I definitely cannot speak for all– I really look at the numbers of adoptive people who enter into the field, helping professions specifically. And I don't believe that I'm any more unique than the rest, who are doing some amazing and challenging work specifically in social work, mental health, and helping professions.

From a really young age, I knew that I wanted to be able to lift up others in a way that was unique to the stories and the lived experiences that my brother and I had. We grew up pretty much in total whiteness. Just to give some context, the high school that both my brother and I graduated from still had the Confederate flag. We sang “The Spirit of Dixie” in every homecoming, every football game, and it was indoctrinated and normalized. It really wasn't until I moved out of that space that I really began to realize just how impactful that was, particularly within an experience as trying to fit into a community there, and then at the same time trying to really build identity. Nothing mirrored that experience. In a lot of ways we had to align within the community, and even then, at a young age, I still felt it was incongruent, but I didn't have the words to say what it was, nor did I have anyone to really mirror back about how obtuse it was and how strange and odd it was for kids of color, particularly Asian kids, to be in these spaces.

As a social worker, I got really involved when I started working in the adoption field, and that was really the catalyst into learning more about the social work profession. But my undergrad was actually in theater. I finished at Texas Wesleyan University with a bachelor's in theater arts, which I always say is the most expensive therapy that I'm still paying off. In terms of identity formation and deconstruction, I could be all these things, and I didn't have to be parts of myself, and yet I found a lot of myself in that. And I think that's also given me a space to be much more comfortable in other people's difficult narratives.

So I could try on all these characters and storylines, but was always drawn to loss. I was always drawn to characters that didn't fit within the box. It really was other adoptees, as I moved into mid-adulthood –it really wasn't until my late 20s and my early 30s, that I really started establishing friendships within the adoption community, particularly in the Korean adoptee community– that I started putting the pieces together: ‘Oh, that's why I've been doing this.’

And social work just fit. I fell in love with NASW's code of ethics and the values, social justice being at the core of our six values that we hold. The dignity and worth of a human being. The importance of human relationships. I mean, all this spoke to the very fundamental parts of myself that didn't always align with the spaces that I grew up in or the spaces I existed in.

I think I've always been comfortable in tension. I think most adoptees are. Within ourselves, I think there is this space that we can really hold the complexities of the narratives between things that are congruent and make sense, and things that don't. And I know that social work, and learning about other people's stories and holding that with great esteem, privilege, and respect as I hear –particularly from those whose voices don't always get heard– is really exciting. It's challenging and hard at times. It's heartbreaking at times, but yet it's humanizing. So I was drawn into the profession and, yeah, here I am. I love it.

Haley Radke: That's beautiful and it's also heartbreaking, right? And you talking about liking to be in the conf– not conflict, but in the challenging spot. Whew! In the tension? Yikes! That makes me uncomfortable. Okay. I feel like I don't fit there. But yeah, we do. We do live in that space a lot of the time.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: And yet you have this platform and it is! That's an exciting part of our experience, I think.

Haley Radke: Yes, well, I notice you challenging people regularly over social media and calling to our attention some of these really deeply seated things and really pushing us to look deeper at so many different issues. Which is so admirable, and as I just said, that makes me really uncomfortable a lot of the time.

But a lot of adoptees, we're navigating these microaggressions constantly and some of us don't even realize it. We are going to focus in on talking about microaggressions today, but can you tell us what is a microaggression, and just put your adoptee slant on it because a lot of us, we might have heard that term before, but not necessarily know what it means or how it would apply to our own lives.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Right. How I describe it, particularly when I'm working with clients, particularly adoptees who are clients, is it feels like a death by a million paper cuts. These are comments or statements that may not have the intention of being pejorative or may not have the intention of being negative in the impact, but they can be othering, and they can feel marginalizing. They feel heavy. And they feel like there's something within the very core of my identity that someone has made a pretty flippant statement.

So it really is stereotypes come alive in small to large actions, or comments or dismissals. You know, the microaggressions, particularly towards adoptees, the things that we've heard: “You should be so grateful that you're adopted.” Well, it's very loaded and it's silencing too, so it shuts down deeper dialogue because automatically there is this visceral sense when it's happening. I myself still get flabbergasted. There is that part of me, that young part of myself that will always be there, the pleaser part, the ‘don't leave me’ part. The ‘I don't wanna be rejected’ part. And yet also the advocate and the fighter: ‘I've worked really hard to get to this space, to utilize’ voice, and ‘I know what's happening here’.

Microaggressions can be based on any part of our identity, but I think particularly as adoptees, we really hold, for so long– I think one of the most challenging parts of –for many, not all, but for many– we'll call it ‘coming out of the fog’, is actually deconstructing the denial, deconstructing the statements that we've heard throughout our lives. I've had to deny parts of how incongruent or how disconcerting that was internally for myself, and put that into another context to go, ‘Wow, that was actually harmful,’ or ‘That was hurtful,’ or, ‘And that's not in my mind’. And so I think sometimes microaggressions in a lot of ways can also be a form of psychological gaslighting.

So it's, “You look like your parents must have done a really great job!” and “You really look like you've got it all together!” Kind-of that ‘good adoptee’ modeling and that reinforcement. Or “Aren't you glad that you're not an orphan? Because can you imagine what your life would've been like?” And so it's these automatic assumptions that sometimes can be microaggressive, but if it's a millionth time, it can be full-on aggressive.

Then, that paradox between, ‘I don't want to be the angry adoptee–’ that pejorative, which is really gaslighting, that's really silencing. Whenever I hear an adjective before an identity, I'm like, ‘Ooh, that's a big red flag.’ Because it is another form of silencing, othering for the benefit of those in spaces of power and privilege. And when we really deconstruct adoption, at the core of that, it really is a power and privilege dynamics, and oppression dynamics, and that is the things that are unspoken. We are not socialized to talk about it. We are not prepared to go there, even on a verbal level, much less to integrate that into the emotional parts of our psyche. If we've grown up in denial, like, “You are just like everybody else in the family!”, and now, especially as a transracial adoptee, I'm like, ‘No, I know full well there's a whole other part of my identity or story.’ I may not have the words for it, but I think particularly when these things happen on a developmental plane, when you've grown up with it, when it's become part of your own vernacular, internally, it is very hard to extricate externally. And that's what makes it– it can be quite exhausting. And so when adoptees, when many begin to regain the voice– and I don't even think it is like I'm regaining this new voice. It's like I've watched with awe and curiosity because it's something that's familiar to myself as well, it's the integration of what's always been there: that infant part, or the toddler part, or the multiple homes that I've been in, or the multiple placements. For someone to sit down and say, “Yeah, that happened to you, and there's some words for it,” I think that's a power within many adoptee spaces, is the affirmation, the validation, absent of full-on microaggressions.

And also being then aware of the intersectionality of microaggressions that can live and breathe within our own community, that different types of microaggressions, or the historical underpinnings of that, they are different. And I think that is just as we contextualize and get even deeper into our own sense of our voice and self –this could be anything from sexuality and the integration of racial difference, even within our own community; gender identity and expression– that there is a platform of understanding what microaggressions and othering is. I think that's a space to start with, and then going even deeper underneath that, where we can really look at what is inclusivity and ‘giving’ voice.

And I think that's hard. I've watched it, or at least experienced it, within portions of our own adopted community. Because, gosh, when my voice has been compartmentalized and dismissed in silence, when I finally get to these spaces and I can do that, there is this part for myself, I have to be really mindful of how that downloads, how that looks, how that may feel for somebody else, whether they're just beginning their journey or whether they've been doing advocacy, activism and different types of work for a long time. I don't think we're ever really there. I think we can just continue to build on each experience.

Haley Radke: So having this lens now that we're like, okay, I think we could recognize when someone says something to us, and it's a microaggression, when you come to a point of strength and you think, ‘You know what? I think I'm gonna push back on this a little bit,’ how would you respond to someone –or would you?– to correct them?

You were listing off some of the examples, and one thing I hear from so many adoptees, especially if they maybe are telling their reunion story, for example, the first question they'll get is something like, “Oh, well, what do your real parents think about that?” What would be a response that you could give to something like that?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: I think it is so individualized and one of the things that I've found, like in terms of our lexicon, almost this space, like, I've never really interacted with other groups of identified people where we have to validate family members before we can validate our experience. Does that make sense? Like, “I had a really great– I love my parents! I love this!” I've never been to other professional conferences where I've had to share out– or expect that maybe the keynote or other speakers who hold different identities, that they open with, “I had a really great childhood!”

Haley Radke: Right! So, I love that you're pointing that out because one thing that we saw last year was the Red Table Talk when Angela Tucker was on, and I mean, let's not go down too far down that rabbit trail, but just the fact that, “Oh, and her parents are here!” Like, what other conversation would they have with someone where they're like, “Oh, let's talk about this topic, and let's see what your mom and dad have to say about it!”, right?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: Right, right. In psychotherapy, I’ve not gone to a conference where we're talking about neurobiology and attachment indices, and the speaker or the researcher is now referencing their parents in particular, or that the expectation is that they do, in order to legitimize their own body of knowledge and research and experience. And so I hold that when we get those questions, I think it's okay to pause. I think it's okay then, even in this space of just being curious, many times I'll just ask: “I'm curious what you mean underneath the question?” and I'll just wait. Because I think then there is this onus, in terms of our own sense of our own dignity, our own energy, and our own space of integrity as adopted people to be able to hold– I get to hold the floor. I think being able to take that pause and step back and go, ‘Huh, what am I feeling here?’ For myself, I always consider that, and then actually turning the question, in terms of emotional labor. I mean, it's laborious to continue to do advocacy work where we are constantly sharing out, literally, parts of something so private, so personal, without, really, the respect response, the bidirectional response, just in terms of being able to be seen by other individuals. I think it's okay for us, or at least for myself, to take that pause, ‘Now, I'm wondering what they're actually asking.’ Even though I also know, underneath, this is the millionth time this has happened. We get asked these questions. It also then, it's not a dereliction of our own sense of our voice, but I do think that it places the onus on the asker.

We are constantly –adoptee; askee; panelist; all these different things– we’re kind-of put up on this stage or these platforms, to not only share out, but then also conversely share so much detailed information, that f the asker hasn't even done their work to metabolize it, I kind of weigh the question itself: ‘Do I even wanna engage in this?’ Because how much do we have the responsibility to constantly teach and train? Social media, particularly for those who've had more marginalized platforms or voices –not as victim spaces, but really as we weren't getting published– we can look historically at the research and the literature for decades, who held the narrative. And being able to, in those spaces, for adoptees as well, to go back and look at where we've come from, what's out there. And as much as I have a responsibility, if I accept a position where I'm speaking out, or speaking into a subject that's related to adoption, I've done my work. And I fully recognize that not everybody is going to be on the same page or in that space, but I do ask if I'm asked to do, let's say, a training or a keynote on transracial adoptions specifically, I've really now embedded into my ask-back, “What is your organization doing to support and actually to elevate the voices of adoptees, elevate the voices of people of color, elevate the voices of our LGBTQ community? And in what ways after I leave here will you do that? And in what ways before I come are you going to prepare for that?” So it's really not a bookend. You know, that adoption by the voices of adoptees isn't like, “Oh, we'll just do this…” It’s almost– it's patronizing. If you really want my voice, then please honor when I'm giving you resources. Use these resources because I know I'm able to do this work because of great sacrifices made by other adoptees who have really had to go through tremendous challenges just to even hold space, and I always want to honor that.

And so even before answering some questions, sometimes I may ask, “I'm curious–” I'll ask an audience, “What works have you digested? What works are you interested in?” Because I'm not speaking for all adopted people. That's a dangerous platform to be in. I can speak from a lived experience and through collectively, professionally, what themes are coming up within the work that's being done. But, “What else have you done?” as well. And I think then making a decision. ‘Do I want to teach here? Do I have the bandwidth?’ And I think for adoptees we need to learn how to take really good care of ourselves, value that space.

Haley Radke: I appreciate that challenge, truthfully, because I think, yeah, I'm kind of hoping for, like, the magic answer you can give when someone gives you one more paper cut.

But I love that idea of thinking about, ‘Okay. What is this really gonna serve in the long run? If I don't say something, or if I do…’ and really our self-care is really paramount.

Melanie Chung-Sherman: I think the self-compassion piece –I appreciate Dr. Kristen Neffs work on self-compassion– is paramount in a lot of the work I do, in terms of integrating and speaking into experiences, particularly when I'm working with clients who identify as adoptees.

We can really move into spaces quite quickly in terms of over-functionality, perfectionism. And it really is coming from genuine, visceral spaces and experiences that we've had. And so particularly when we move into the realms of advocacy and activism related to any kind of platform in adoption, the personal is political. The political is personal. The policies, initiatives… and then coupled with microaggressions, because those who hold space in terms of power and privilege– the dynamics have already been there for generations, they've been there for decades. And so holding self-compassion of, ‘When do I choose to bend the walls today? And when do I choose to take–’ it's not taking necessarily a step back, but a breath in. To be like, ‘You know what, I have done what I need to do in terms of the work.’ And if I'm doing that work, then part of that's going to entail really having a good therapist –I'm all about that, especially as a mental health professional– but then, even for myself, to be able to come back to someone with objectivity to really help center and actually just kind-of deconstruct and get in there and really talk through ‘What is my motivation for being here? What still fills me up? What helps keep me going? And what are the things right now, if I were to write these down and I were to name them out, the things that are exhausting me, the things that have been harmful?’

Because when we work in spaces where oppression and power dynamics are significant, I worry about individuals who say, “I'm not tired. I can do this all day long. None of it bothers me.’ Even that self-defense, what is that girding up in the spaces that are the most vulnerable? In the spaces that for many, at least for myself, it's hard to be vulnerable. Because vulnerability can also lead to abandonment ,and vulnerability is scary, and it's an unknown quantity. I, myself, I'm great at, like, I want control, I want predictability. I need to know what's here. Like, even before we came on, I knew that I had to have water, and coffee, or some kind of liquid. So all my close friends and colleagues know that it's a safety mechanism for myself, but it's also a compassion space of, like, ‘I know what I need,’ to take care of myself before I do.

But as we're talking about self-compassion, I think it's really important for adoptees in particular to really know what their limitation is. And I think that's hard when you're really beginning to put your voice out there and people are listening and you're getting feedback. It can be really addictive, it can be intoxicating. It can also be quite energy-draining. You know, Brené Brown talks about the “vulnerability hangover”, and I know whenever I speak specifically in spaces for adoption, I'm gonna need a good 24 hours of, like, a ‘social meeds’ cleanse, and a cleanse, like, in general, and really being with, ‘Who are the people that love me and support me? What are the things that bring me beauty and comfort?’ and when I have the energy and the time and space, then you know, ‘At what point do I wanna engage, and then at what point am I going to kind-of hold back a little bit?’

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for sharing that. I want to pause you because I think we are gonna talk more about this in our next episode. Thank you so much, Melanie. I really appreciate your thoughts on that and I think there's a lot of learning for us to do here. So I'm going to challenge people to take a few minutes and really think about what Melanie shared with us. In that, where can we connect with you online?

Melanie Chung-Sherman: So my website is mcscounsel.com, and you can also connect with me on Instagram @mcscounsel. And you can also connect through my professional Facebook page, you can just type in “Melanie Chung-Sherman, LCSW, PLLC,” and that will pull up the professional Facebook page.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Wow. Did that give you enough to ponder for, I mean, days and days and days? I think this is an episode that bears re-listening to, and I truly think there's so many pieces of the real, deep story of adoption that takes layers and layers of understanding. And Melanie hit on so many high points, so many. So I really think if you give this episode a re-listen, you're going to hear something different, probably the next, I don't know, 10 times you hear it. And this is a great place where we can have conversations like this is over in the Adoptees On Patreon group. I have monthly supporters of the show, if you want to join them, Adoptees on.com/partner, and we have several levels of benefits. One is a weekly podcast that's called Adoptees Off-Script. One is an adoptees-only Facebook group, and we have a lot of really good conversations in there. So those are some of the benefits to supporting the show, and plus then the show gets to continue and live in this world and help other adoptees.

So thanks for considering that. I really appreciate it. Adopteeson.com/partner if you want to join us, and if you want to say with your money that Adoptees On is important and you want it to keep existing with that.

Ooh, I'm so excited. Melanie's going to be back next week, so make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss our conversation next week.

Thanks so much for listening, let's talk again next Friday.