150 [Healing Series] Mother Loss Part 2

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/150

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

This is Part 2 of our discussion about Mother Loss. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Stephanie Oyler and Amanda Transue-Woolston. Welcome back.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you for having us.

Haley Radke: Okay, so last time we talked about some very sad things you both shared about the loss of your first mother, Stephanie, and Amanda, the loss of your adoptive mother. And you really talked us through some of the practical things that were just happening for you in the moment.

And we even mentioned that you're kind of in shock and you're kind of going through the motions at that point, and not necessarily that there was anything that you could have prepared ahead of time for this sort of loss.

Now let's put on therapy hats, social worker expertise hats. Looking at mother loss, Amanda, I got this quote from your Facebook page you shared:

“Because I am adopted, I will lose more than one mother more than one time throughout my lifespan.”

That's pretty powerful. Do you have some thoughts on that?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes. When we talk about the “adoption triad,” which I don't use personally but it's very popular, we think of the adoptee, the first mother and the adoptive mother, and it's like this triangle with equal sides, which we know is not a thing, first of all, because there's power imbalances and representation imbalances in adoption and also because there's so many other factors and players involved.

I love the idea of the constellation so much more. But that idea of the triad, I think, causes people to see, if they're going to agree with me, that adoption involves a lot of loss which is still hard for people to comprehend. They're thinking, well, okay, you lost your first mother and then your adoptive mother died. The end.

And it's even more where I personally pull in the visual of the constellation because I lost a foster mother. I lost my first mother one time, but then I also reunited. So I eventually will also be involved as an adult in her end-of-life planning because we're close. And then also I have the loss of my adoptive mother, and I have this kind of ambiguous loss of never having gained much information about my foster mother either.

And being a therapist and being a social worker and working with children, I have an understanding of childhood development and I know better than to think that I'm not affected by these losses of my first mother or my foster mother just because I was young and couldn't remember those times.

I know better, and it's actually more concerning that I didn't have language at that time to process because you carry it around with you. And when emotions arise now, as an adult, I have to wonder when was the first time I actually felt this way? And was it when I was a child? And what is behind the feelings that I feel now as an adult, just in my everyday life? Because I don't know a lot about the first five months of my life. I won't have answers.

Depending on how many placements you had, depending on if your foster or your adoptive placement was disrupted, depending on if you were reunited later, you can lose multiple primary parental figures over and over again and also be in a position of having to teach people what that is like for you, if they're even willing to put aside their own assumptions that it doesn't matter or that only one of those mothers or fathers is allowed to matter.

When you get past that part, now you have to teach them what “mother loss” is.

Haley Radke: Talk about grief through the life cycle. Like, wow, do we get layers?

Stephanie, even when I was talking with you and Amanda about having this conversation, I broached the subject of I feel like this was pretty recent for you guys. Do you want to wait a little bit longer? And you guys both were like, no, no, no, we're ready, let's go.

Stephanie Oyler: You know, everything Amanda just said really, really hits home. I mean, just the amount of loss, and I'm thinking of the kids I work with even now, and just how people don't recognize it. They don't recognize anything but the loss of a mom, like the one mom who raised you.

And even going into the foster care piece, you know, I was in a couple of different foster homes. I was in one foster home for a pretty long time, and that was pretty significant because I was described as a very different child in their home. And then redescribed and re-, I don't even know, I was just a whole different child when I moved into my adoptive home.

So just the idea that I want to be able to know who I was before that point and I'm probably never going to get that opportunity.

It is a lot of loss. It's a lot of, it's just a lot of loss.

Haley Radke: I'm curious, both of you have mentioned that you have your children and how were you able to tell them about losing their, I'm not sure, sorry if this is presumptuous, Stephanie, but if you presented your first mother as a grandmother figure to them or not, and then Amanda, your kids losing their grandmother, how were you able to present that to them?

Was that really challenging? You know, I think, just that extra layer why I'm asking this is: For a lot of us, we feel like we're starting a new legacy once we have children and keeping our family intact. So I think there's this whole extra piece to it. Sharing this loss with our kids.

Stephanie Oyler: So my son is younger and he's a little bit crazy, so bringing him around my first mother would've been difficult because she had a lot of mental health issues and she took a lot of things very personally. She didn't understand certain things, so my son met her but I didn't really bring him around.

My daughter I did, and she's nine. She was eight when my first mom passed. She was there. She actually came into the room to say goodbye, and it was very difficult to explain because she understands adoption to an extent, but she didn't understand death. So I think the idea of that being a first real loss for her and then also just getting to know my first mom, she was a grandmother figure, but not in the same sense as my adoptive mom.

So I think it's still complicated even now. We're still kind of having conversations around it. There's actually been a lot of loss over this whole Covid situation. Our dog passed away a couple months ago, so there's been a lot of conversations around it and a lot of confusion.

So that's just an ongoing conversation, just developmentally, with both of them.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: I've asked myself this question and it's hard. It's been hard for me because I want to give people advice that I personally connect to. And it's hard for me to say how much of the explaining for my children was on me because it was really my husband that told them because I was in Florida.

So when he picked them up from school that day, I was already in Florida and he had to tell them why I left and where I was. And so I don't exactly know how he did that. I assume it would be very similar to the way that I would because he's been a paramedic for a long time. He works in a big city. Death and trauma is kind of just what he does every day. So my children are very familiar with that just because, you know, fire service and emergency service becomes part of a family culture.

My children also have participated in my interest in positive death culture literature and media. And so there's a death-positive creator that I really like. Her name is Caitlin Doughty and she's written books for kids. So I've read those with my children.

A lot of that was a part of me wanting to continue staying competent for my work in hospice, but also, even though I'm not working in hospice anymore, because within two years prior to my adoptive mother dying, my biological paternal brother died. My biological father's sister died. My grandmother, who was my kid's great-grandmother, my mom's mom, she died and was close to my children.

Other people died. There was more. People that we knew. It just seemed to come in waves. And so we had had this conversation already. And also our dog had died too.

So we don't use “pass away.” We don't use “went to heaven.” We've always said their heart stops. Their brain is not functioning anymore. Their personality words, the ability to take in information doesn't happen anymore. The body immediately starts breaking down, you know, and this is what happens when you bury something that's been alive. It becomes part of that whole cycle of life again.

And so we've always been very literal and concrete about death. And so they, my kids, seem to be able to apply that to when their nanny died. My youngest son, he has some mental health disabilities. And so he seems to understand, but I do answer some rather childlike questions. He's nine but he's developmentally younger in his thoughts, and so I do tend to answer more questions for him, and so sometimes I'm unsure how much he understands or is it a matter of how he's expressing himself.

Does he not know how to tell me that he understands, or does he generally still not kind of get what's happening? His first reaction was, what is wrong with Florida? Because his great grandmother had just died in Florida almost about a year prior. So he's like, Florida is where people go to die?

He did not really want me down there with my dad because I stayed in the hospital room with my dad. I slept on the chair and on a cot for eight days when he was in the ICU. So, that was the whole thing, them trying to get me out of his room. I was like, no, I'm not worried about any of you people here liking me. I'm not leaving my dad's side. That's just not happening, nope. We are loyal, we adoptees. We can be loyal to a tee.

So, anyway they didn't want me in Florida because Florida's a bad place. So that was my youngest son's first reaction. It's also been very weird because of the pandemic.

I feel like when people died when I was younger, I processed a lot of it through the awkward questions other people would ask me as a kid. Like, do you miss your whoever-it-was? It was just weird things people ask because they don't have to talk to kids.

But nobody really had contact with my children or my family, so it's hard to know if we're understanding and explaining normally because we haven't even had my mom's funeral yet. So this is completely new territory.

Stephanie Oyler: Yeah, it’s so interesting because I started to think more about my son in the mix, and he was in the hospital as well. He didn't go into the room. We kind of gave him an idea of why we were there, but just recently he's been very concerned about death. And I'm sure it's part of the pandemic that we're in and the dog dying and then my first mom, and he actually asked my adoptive mom when she had dropped by, we haven't seen her that often just because of all the restrictions and whatnot.

But he actually looked at her and was like, oh, I thought you were dead. And I thought about it and it just dawned on me the connection between the grandmother piece as well, because my first mom was considered a grandmother, and then, you know, she disappeared and then now we're in a pandemic, and then my mom disappeared, my adoptive mom.

So, yeah, I think it's just a lot more coming up with him just around death. And where do people go? And, well, I wanna visit them. He's five, so he's younger. Well, how do we get there? That's been a lot more, I think it took him a little bit to realize that when someone passes away or they die, they're not coming back.

I think that was something that's just now kind of recently started. So the conversations are coming back up, it's just ongoing. As we move through the emotions and the processing and just how each wave is different and how different things can trigger emotions or memories and just how that's impacting right now.

Especially with all the extra stuff happening around the pandemic.

Haley Radke: Totally, totally. Oh my goodness. There's so many things that kids just are expected to kind of jump on board and know right now that we, even as adults, don't know either.

Now I'm curious, in the same vein of having conversations and things, what both of you mentioned in our last episode was some of the ridiculous things people were saying to you as you're in this state of shock and grieving, or not even necessarily to the point of grieving yet.

But do you have any advice, coaching, anything that, now with hindsight, you can think, okay, if I had phrased something this way, this might have shut down some of those inappropriate questions? You know, it should. The onus shouldn't be on us. I totally get that. But if there is some piece of advice that you could give another adoptee who might be in a similar situation at some point.

Things we can say to shut down those inappropriate things. Especially when you're dealing with someone who doesn't understand the grief piece we're going through, like we mentioned disenfranchised grief last time.

Stephanie Oyler: I think it's hard to give advice because when you're in the moment, it's really hard to think about what you're going to say. So I think that that's where I trip up.

I think what I should have said was, this was my mom and I'm hurting. And that probably would've shut it down. But I think I was just so taken aback by the fact that people didn't even realize that this would be a painful thing for me and a hard thing. That it just kept me tripped up in what to say.

And I don't know if I have advice on how to combat that because I just feel when you're in the moment, your emotions are your emotions. And I guess I would say it's not a reflection on your relationship. It's not a reflection on the experience that you've had with your first family or whoever at that point.

It's just that people don't get it. And that doesn't mean that it's any less important or you grieve any less. And just being kind to yourself in that, because I think I was hard on myself in the sense that maybe I didn't speak about her enough.

Maybe I should have expressed that I had this relationship with her, and then people wouldn't think that I didn't, and they would understand that it hurts. So I think that's the piece, just being kind to yourself and allowing yourself the grace in the moment when you don't have all the right words.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes. I think that Stephanie's strategy of preparing yourself to safeguard yourself from the reactions that people are going to have is the best, most self-loving way to get yourself through that process.

One thing that I keep in mind for anybody that's going through any type of death and loss is that people tend to respond to the grieving in ways that meet their own needs first. And I don't think that people realize that they're doing that.

And so to give an example, my aunt came to the hospital when I was with my dad and she kept taking me aside for coffee, and I didn't want to leave my dad's room. So it's her wanting to take me aside, she needed to feel like she was doing something for me, even though that's not necessarily what I needed or wanted. Her desire to take me aside for coffee.

She got so frustrated with me because I wouldn't cry in front of her, and she actually gave me feedback that that made her feel like she wasn't being helpful or that we're not very close, because I wasn't crying in front of her. And so it was that people tend to feel like this is what I have to give you and I need you as the grieving person to make me feel as though what I have and what I want to give is helpful to you.

When we mix adoption into that, it becomes even more painful because a lot of people have their own assumptions about adoption. Even therapists who aren't adoption competent will approach adoption as though it's something easy.

And if you just had that one right thing that a therapist could tell you. The adoptee must not realize how simple this is because it's simple in the mind of the person or of the therapist. So I'll just say a few phrases at you and then you'll get it. Like, oh, well, you don't need to be sad because she loved you so much, she gave you away. And it's like, oh, that never occurred to me. Thank you so much!

But people have those grief snippets that they want to throw at you with adoption too. Like I can make you feel better and I can make myself feel good for being the person that made you feel better in your grief by reminding you that you still have your other mother. Like, you still have your adoptive mother and she's the one that raised you anyway. Or if you just realize this adoption thing was so simple by these one-liners that I have to throw at you.

I didn't hear as many as Stephanie did, but one thing that I did hear was the story with my aunt and then doctors and nurses making comments in the hospital about if I was related because I don't really look like either of my parents. And I told one of the nurses that my mom had died and I wasn't crying again because I don't feel comfortable crying in front of people.

And she just looked at me and was like, oh, well you must be the stepdaughter then? Because I wasn't acting the right way and I didn't look the right way. And so she felt the need to parse out why I wasn't and that was her selfish curiosity that wasn't about me.

All that is to say we need to safeguard ourselves for how people will seek to meet their own needs in grief through us needing them or us telling them they did a good job or whatever. And they will mix adoption themes into that.

You can try to educate and you can try to explain yourself, but it's okay not to, as well, because the more you explain to someone who may not be interested in learning, the more you just give your power and your time for yourself away.

Haley Radke: Well, that's some amazing insights from both of you. Thank you. I know that as friends and colleagues, you guys have been talking with each other about these things and your losses and have been kind of going through this mourning together.

Can you tell us any other things that have kind of popped up for you that are really different, you know, grieving the loss of an adoptive mother versus a first mother. I don't know about “versus,” it doesn't sound right to say it that way, but I hope you know the spirit of the question I'm asking, not necessarily for just comparison's sake but just it's different circumstances.

So do you have any thoughts on that?

Stephanie Oyler: I know for me it was very difficult to go into the hospital and speak to doctors. I don't want to say uncomfortable, but I just felt like an imposter. Like, she didn't raise me. Am I allowed to do this? Are they going to want me? I almost felt like I had to tell my story every single time I went. I was adopted and this and that.

I spoke to a couple other people who were in similar situations and that's a common theme that I've seen. Just the idea that we're put into this situation to make these decisions, life or death decisions, and sometimes we just ask ourselves: Are we allowed to? Is that okay?

I feel like an imposter because she didn't raise me. And am I allowed to make these decisions for her? And what if it's not what she wants? And I'm confident that I made the right decision. I did know my mom, and I did know that this is what she would've wanted, but it still creeps up. Am I worthy of making these decisions?

So I know that that was a really overarching theme. Every time I walked into the hospital, every time I answered the phone to a doctor, every time I spoke to the agency who provided case management services with her, I just felt like a person, almost like on the outside, coming in to make the decisions, if that makes sense.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes. So we've covered a lot of the overarching themes that Stephanie and I would need to cover if we were making a book or we were making a resource. What is everything that we would need to cover? We've covered a lot. We've touched on a lot of it so far in this two-part series.

Some other things that I know we've put on our list. We talked about spouses and children. We talked about belonging and relatedness. How do people perceive you as being related depending on birth or adoption. We've talked about finding support.

It looks different if you are biologically related but weren't raised with that family versus being raised with the family but not sharing that genetic connection, when it comes to instructing others about how to respond. Or adoption competence and finding support.

Some other things that we talked about were the idea of obligation, because that is family systems theory. Murray Bowen, who is the father of family systems theory, actually proposed as part of his theory that it's being cared for as a child that obligates.

The better you are cared for as a child, the stronger your sense of obligation will be as an adult to take care of a parent. But adoptees kind of throw that for a loop because they have had their caregiving often split up between multiple caregivers or contentious relationships with their adoptive parents. And then they have biological parents that may not have raised them, but they will step in and make those end-of-life decisions.

And that obligation is, I don't want to call it “obligation,” but that's the theory. It's there, even though the early childhood caregiving wasn't there. And so we challenge that theory. And what is that? What makes adoptees step in regardless of childhood connections.

Inheritance of heirlooms. When you have no legal ties, when your legal ties are severed from your biological family, you are not legally entitled to anything. I mean, there may be some exceptions in a few states.

When you are adopted, you are legally entitled to whatever, but your family may not agree that those items should be yours because your family may feel that [you are not family].

Personally, I inherited a necklace from my mother that was made from her grandmother and her mother's wedding rings. And I know she would've wanted her wedding ring added to it, and I've already put in my will that it's going to my niece, my niece who is genetically related.

I don't even want to know what my family thinks about me keeping those things, you know. It's fine, but your legal relationship versus your nurturing relationship affects how entitled you feel to these items versus whether someone else thinks that you should have them.

We talked about being entitled to grief. That was another one. And the differences between making next-of-kin decisions.

So for us, neither of us were legally, technically the next of kin, but when you're in that position anyway, we had talked about [how] there's a lot of emphasis when we're children on keeping biological and adoptive families separate and making sure that adoptive families have all of the decision-making and all of the rights and everything.

If the original first family is present at all, they're there for visits and stuff, but they're not parenting, and we're alienating adoptees from their resources in that way. But when first parents and adoptive parents are aging and there aren't systems in place to take care of them, we have encountered, as social workers, [cases] where it's like, oh, they have a long-lost adopted child, let's find them because someone needs to come make decisions for Mabel.

Then all of a sudden, they want to pull us in. And then it doesn't matter. Like, oh, you met them once when you were five? Yes? Please, someone come and make these decisions because we don't care for our elders like we should. And that's when all of a sudden adoptees are allowed to be resources.

We hear that. I was hearing about that when I was still in social work school, where a caseworker for someone who was experiencing financial abuse, elder abuse, they found that they had relinquished a son like 50, 60, 70 years ago, and they went and found that son, reunited them so that he could become her new decision-maker. And he did. And he was glad to do it, you know, and so that's when, oh, who cares about secrecy? Someone needs to step in and solve these problems.

Haley Radke: Well, that's pretty fascinating. Wow.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes. So there's all this other legal stuff about do we go with a feeling of entitlement through nurture? Or do we go through a legal entitlement through adoption? Or do we go through, we're biologically related? And adoptees are always adoptees and consistently show up on all fronts.

Whether or not we're accepted or embraced, adoptees tend to be the ones that are accountable and willing to help.

Haley Radke: Like I said, I find that really fascinating. Thank you for those points.

And you know, we're sort of wrapping up. The one thing that just keeps popping up into my head, you're both speaking from the point of view of you were connected to and had a relationship with the mothers we've been talking about.

How many adoptees have you heard from where they find out via a Google search that either an estranged adoptive parent passed? Or a first parent who maybe they had a brief reunion with and that ended? Or maybe they weren't reunited at all? And you know, there's all these themes of I'm left out of the obituary, nobody even phoned me to tell me. Those sorts of things.

Would you mind speaking to someone who's had that experience? And just as an encouragement, you know, even if you aren't acknowledged in that way, what are some ways you can still process the loss and take care of yourself? Because I feel like that would be extremely hurtful.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: It is hurtful. For me, I know it's hard to speak on because I haven't been left out of anything when it comes to my adoptive mother because everything has been on my shoulders.

I made all of her end-of-life decisions. I handled all of the disposition of her remains and all of those choices. It was a car accident with a reckless driver, so I've handled all of her wrongful death investigation and the insurance companies. I wrote her obituaries and I'm planning her whole funeral. And my dad, love him so much, my dad is just like, yeah, Amanda's got it. So, I don't want to be left out, but I'm too involved. I don't have boundaries with this.

The only thing when my aunt died, I wasn't told about any of her funeral arrangements. I wasn't involved. It was important to me. My biological father was, my readers are familiar with him. He was not a very good person. And of course, that affected my aunt through her whole life. It really alienated her from others, and I would've loved to have done special things for her when she died because she still celebrated my birthday, my growing up, even though she never knew if she would ever see me.

But her own sons were just kind of like….I can't even find that they put an obituary in for her. So I heard she died through town gossip in Maine, which the entire state of Maine is a small town. So that is not directly related to my mother's losses, but that is an example and I can empathize with other adoptees about that.

And I know Stephanie, it was all on you too, right?

Stephanie Oyler: Yeah, it was all on me. And I'm actually in the process of kind of planning everything out for her as well. But I do see and recognize the loss of wanting to find your family or wanting to find your mother or father and searching. And then to find out that they passed away.

And sometimes I've spoken to people for whom it was within the last year of their search and they just weren't able to meet them in time. And just the incredible amount of loss, not only for the parent, but the relationship that could have been and that was almost there. I can't imagine that loss.

And I, as well, empathize with that. And I can't imagine that as I'm grateful that I was able to have a relationship with my first mother and to experience and make memories with her. So there's just so much loss, I think, in adoption.

There's so many ways it can go, so many twists and turns. There's that all of a sudden it's loss again. It's a theme from the very beginning. And yeah, I really do empathize with situations like that as well.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: One other piece that I think is important to mention is the racial cultural ritual differences that I think are important to pay homage to.

I was not transracially adopted and as a white person in the United States, everybody wears black and, you know, sniffles at the graveside. I feel like that's generally accommodated in the funeral industry.

And when it comes to embracing the death rituals and experiences of communities of color, that's not as well represented and what the everyday person knows about death and dying.

And so I think it would be so cool for Stephanie to be interviewed, if she's comfortable in the future, about when you are a person of color trying to plan and have your rituals incorporated and the person that you're grieving may be of a different race than you. Or you're trying to plan for your mother who was a person of color with a white funeral director and they don't know how to manage hair or makeup or skin in a respectful way for someone that's different than them.

We talk about adoptees of color not having their hair taken care of properly as children. But even into adulthood, do adoptees of color have an opportunity to learn their original families’ death practices and also overcome the racism in the funeral industry that they may encounter?

And so that's something that I know Stephanie can uniquely speak on, and I definitely want to support her and other adoptees in doing that when they're ready because I'm not equipped to talk about that myself.

Stephanie Oyler: I think that's a really important thing. And actually it didn't affect me when I went to the hospital, but I was nervous going in because my mother is white.

My first mother was white and my father was black. And I don't really look like anybody. So I was nervous in the fact that I'm coming in as an adoptee. I wasn't legally raised by her and, on top of it, I have no paperwork saying that's my mom, you know. And just like how that was going to play out.

But I definitely agree. There's just so much to unpack with cultural pieces of that. So I agree with Amanda on that.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you so much for bringing that up as well. Like we've said, right? All the complexities of layers.

Wow. There's so much to unpack. And I'm excited to hear that you guys are going to be working on this, and I'm sure that as we follow your blogs and other efforts, we will hear more about this from you in the future, which is wonderful.

So speaking of that, Stephanie, where can we connect with you online?

Stephanie Oyler: You can find me at adopteelit.com. I just launched my business and it is a consultation business for adoptive parents, a mentoring business in the sense that for adoptees, both minor and adult, and then an education business that I hope to provide workshops on. And I also have a blog that is linked directly from that website.

Haley Radke: Perfect. And Amanda, how about you?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: I have my professional website, amandawoolston.com and my adoptee blogging website, declassifiedadoptee.com. All of my social medias are there. I forgot to mention last time, I have started a podcast for The Declassified Adoptee, in that I have been asked for years to make my content more accessible by turning it into audio, and I chose a podcasting format for that.

I am doing a dramatic reading, I guess you could say, of my written content at wherever you subscribe to your podcasts, for folks who find it easier or more preferable to listen instead of having to read. That's another accessibility option for them.

And I have to give credit to Stephanie because that was inspired by her because we are also working on a podcast together, which was her idea. That is different, that's a real podcast. It'll be a real podcast show.

I'm also on Stitcher and whatever else under The Declassified Adoptee.

Haley Radke: Perfect. Thank you so much. Look forward to hearing more news about that and we will make sure to share it on Adoptees On when you guys launch. Thanks so much for your wisdom. Really appreciate it. It's been such an honor talking with you both today.

Make sure you are following Stephanie and Amanda to see what they have coming up. I promise it is going to be worthwhile. And I love seeing more adoptive voices out there, more adoptees sharing in different ways that really help our community heal and actually look at the impact adoption has had on us and how we can move forward.

I really appreciate that so much. So, thank you so much, Stephanie and Amanda, for sharing with us. Grateful for your work. And I look forward to cheering you on in all the new things that you have coming up.

Okay, friends, I'm so grateful for you for listening. One of the best ways that you can help the show that's totally free is just sharing this episode with another adoptee that you know that might have had a loss in their life.

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149 [Healing Series] Mother Loss Part 1

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/149

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves. So they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

I just want to give you a quick update before we get to today's show, and that is we are going back to weekly episodes, so make sure you're subscribed wherever you love to listen to podcasts so you don't miss any episodes. Today's show is two-parter, so next Friday we're going to have Part Two of our conversation.

We are talking about mother loss and…I just wanna prepare you. This is a very powerful conversation with two incredible women, and you are going to hear their very recent stories of losing their mothers and how that's impacted them, what it really looked like right when it was happening, and I mean, sometimes I'm–no, often, I'm shocked at the candor people share with us. And so you are stepping into some sacred space today and next week will be as well.

So I hope that you find this conversation as helpful and enlightening as I did. It's one of the most impactful I think we've had here. Without further ado, we're talking mother loss. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Amanda Transue-Woolston and Stephanie Oyler.

Welcome, ladies.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you for having us.

Stephanie Oyler: Yes, thank you.

Haley Radke: It's my first Healing Series three-way conversation, and so it's just a pleasure to talk with you. I'm so excited. We're going to talk about some hard things today, and I'm very honored to be able to learn from you both. And let's start out–Amanda, can you share a little bit of your story and how you became a therapist and social worker and etcetera?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you so much for having me, for having us. This is exciting. I have explained this so many times and you would think that I have this “elevator speech" down… But as my identities keep evolving, I keep adding and taking away how I explain who I am.

So the short of it is: I was born in 1985 and I was surrendered to adoption as an infant. I was three days old and I was placed into foster care for a short period of time. And at about four-and-a-half months old, my adoptive parents became my new foster parents, essentially. And then I was legally adopted the following year in New Jersey. And they raised me from four-and-a-half months old.

So I… It was a closed adoption and I grew up not knowing what I wanted to do with my life. And I had a friend who wanted to be a nurse, so I'm like, I'm gonna go to nursing school. I don't know why I picked that, but I went to the same college she did, and it was deciding that I didn't want to be a nurse that really threw me for a tailspin.

And people kept saying to me, “You should be a social worker because you are adopted. And social workers really helped you make your life just so wonderful.” And even when I was not ready to talk about adoption, I was not ready to talk about any of the new nuances or loss or grief about adoption; even then, I really did not like that. I didn't like the idea that I was going to make someone else's life be like mine, because that's not nice or respectful, and my life was not perfect. And so I always just–I specifically never looked into social work, because I didn't understand all that social workers do.

I didn't know that a lot of adoption workers actually are not trained; they're not social workers. So that is a difference there. And I just went in the complete opposite direction, until I wanted to work with older adults. And then I learned more. I met social workers who weren't adoption workers, and I realized that the values of the profession aligned with my own.

And at that same time, I had my firstborn child and I wanted to learn more about my background and history–lots of family of origin stuff. When you're going through social work education, it makes you very interested. And that adoption was not something that I was going to touch as part of my education, but your social work professors make you. They make you pull in painful parts of yourself so that you deal with them, because they can't come out in your client work later.

Your work as a social worker cannot be about you. And I became very much more comfortable with it. And I went into therapy based on the feedback of my professors–that's what I would be good at. And they directed me towards a school where I could specialize in clinical social work for my master's degree and that is the whole….

I reunited when I was 25, so that was part of it. But social work was… I processed all of that, my reunion, everything throughout my social work education, which was, really, it was–A lot of people don't get that kind of support, so that was a saving grace for me.

Haley Radke: Wow, that's amazing. There's a lot of layers there.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes.

Haley Radke: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. Stephanie, how about you?

Stephanie Oyler: My adoption story began when I was two weeks old and I was removed from my first mother and placed into foster care. At that point, it was considered respite care; I wasn't actually put into the foster care system.

Once they realized that was probably gonna be a more long-term situation, I was formally changed to foster care and was in a couple of different placements. And then, around my first birthday, I was placed with my adoptive parents (who were at that time fostering me). And then I was adopted right before my fourth birthday. So I was with them.

I actually had a lot of struggles growing up adopted. I didn't really put it all together as that really being the cause of it until I was an adult and in school for social work and really seeing how that connected to all the different struggles I had growing up. I had a lot of identity issues, so I hadn't really connected the dots of being adopted and how that played into all the struggles growing up. I really struggled with identity. I'm also a transracial adoptee, so there was a lot of layers of that piece. And my parents had the colorblind mentality, which just made it really hard to fit in, just because I stuck out so much in the family that I didn't look like.

So there was just a lot of different things. So at 17, I moved out and I went on a little soul searching mission, went to different places, and eventually I got pregnant and had my daughter. And I think that is when I really realized that I wanted to go back for social work, or I wanted to go to school for social work (not really go back). But I never really had a clear picture of what I wanted to do. But when I had my daughter, I realized just the connection that I have with her, and just realizing how much I missed out on that. I ended up going for my associate's degree and then transferring into a bachelor's program for my master’s, or for my social work degree. And then moving on into my master's level courses.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much. So, with that being said, you guys are experienced in adoptee things (just because we are all adoptees), but you also have this extra layer of having your master's in social work. And I know both of you do different things in Adoption Land, but what brings us to our conversation today is some very challenging things that you both have experienced: some losses.

Who wants to share first about that?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Our losses that we are focusing on together for the purpose of this content we're building together over time, and we're gonna talk about on our own channels and is about the constant concept of mother loss. And that is something that we–it dawned on both of us at the same time from talking…

Stephanie lost her first mother recently, just before I lost my adoptive mother. Both deaths were sudden. And we were both put in the position of being the next of kin, to handling the affairs, and the end of life decisions when we (legally) really weren't. And one of the realizations that we have is that we will (because we're adopted), we will lose more than one mother more than one time throughout our lifetime.

Both of us have been a part of that adoptee movement that has focused on that compassion and empathy for children. When they are so little, they can't cognitively really understand what's going on, but they very much experience the loss of their parents. In attachment theory, the foundations of attachment theory, always focused on the mother, like the significance of that. Whoever gave birth, that relationship is foundational for the family and a person going forward.

And so in that kind of vein, and because adoptees tend to also focus on their mothers a lot as well. We were focusing specifically more on the mother relationship (not in intentional exclusion of anybody else). And so we lost our original mothers, our first mothers when we were kids, and then many of us (Stephanie and I included) lost foster mothers that some of them we may or may not remember. And then we see adoption as like this celebration and common adoption culture as, “Oh, you finally gain your forever family,” and the losses should stop, right? But they don't, because now we have to lose mothers again as adults, which isn't paid attention to at all.

Both of us do a lot of diving into research and literature, and it's not really (except anecdotally), it's not really spoken about at all. What happens when I reunite with my first mother and she dies? Or, What happens with–now I have to lose my adoptive mother when she dies? The losses continue to accumulate.

And developmentally, there's not a lot of theory about what happens to people when they have to lose a mother multiple times and multiple times in that way. It's not–it's just not part of our normative trajectory when we talk about adult development. And so that is… Since both of us had that experience recently and not being able to find much about it, but having a lot to say about it…

That is one of our really strong topics of interest right now and we're also finding that a lot of people are like, “Yeah, tell me! What is it? I wanna hear it, cuz I can't find it either. And I also just lost my mom.” So…

Haley Radke: Let me just say how sorry I am for your losses and...I don't know. I think there's that extra layer, right? When it's unexpected and in a tragic circumstance. And then you mentioned, Amanda, that you guys were both called upon for some responsibilities that you weren't necessarily expecting. Stephanie, do you wanna touch on that?

What were you asked to do when your first mother passed that maybe you weren't necessarily expected or expecting to be called on to do?

Stephanie Oyler: A little backstory. I reunited with my first mother when I was 18, but it wasn't really physically; it wasn't in person. It was more like phone calls, and letters, and things like that. I'd say the last five or six years, I really started visiting her more.

She didn't have a family. She lived in a group home setting. She had treatment teams and case managers, and she had actually aged out of the child welfare system herself. So she really had no family. And so when I finished school, I really wanted to provide her with a family and be there in a way that she never really had. So I started going to her treatment team meetings and I started visiting her regularly.

My children met her. My husband met her. We did our best to include her in just everything that we were doing. And so, I think at that time I was in constant communication with her peer support specialist. And I was at work one day, and I got a frantic call from her saying that, “You need to come to the hospital. Somebody has to sign paperwork and there's nobody to sign,” (because the agency and her case manager could not sign it). There was nobody to sign a power of attorney type thing.

I rushed out; I went to the hospital. And I had signed the paperwork, and then I was put into this position of, now I'm dealing with the doctors and I'm talking with them. And I'm all of a sudden making all of these decisions that I would've never thought in a million years I would be doing. Because I mean, I knew her, but I didn't know her history. I didn't know her medical background. So I–there was a lot of imposter syndrome. When I'm speaking to the doctors, I felt, Am I allowed to do this? It was a lot of feelings at the time, but I got put into the role of just making all of those decisions.

And then, eventually, I had to make the decision of whether to remove the life support, because she was not ever going to come out of what she was in (which I did). And then I was put into the position of, Okay, now you are in charge of all of the arrangements and all this stuff afterwards (which once again, I didn't even think about, because I'd never been in this position to even understand). So then, I started doing all of that stuff and it just was overwhelming. There was really no help and I didn't have support. So that's just the gist of where I came into play with that.

Haley Radke: That does sound overwhelming. Can you just (I don't know if you're comfortable sharing this), but how were you feeling during that time?

Were you like, actually in the moment experiencing things? Or were you in this state of shock and just going, Okay, I think I need to do this next. I think I…, more like just going through the motions?

Stephanie Oyler: Yeah, I think I was in shock. I tend to get into this professional mode. And I think sometimes I did that a lot with my first mother, just because it was easier to keep myself separated at times (if I went into professional), which is why I really wanted to be on her treatment team. And I really wanted to help in that sense.

So when I got the call, I really did–I was shocked. I was like–They basically told me she was gonna die if I did not come to the hospital at that exact moment. So I was like, Okay, time to get it down. I'm rushing from work. I go to the hospital and I sign the paperwork and yeah, I just–I think it was like just going through the motions at that point.

I didn't even realize what I was doing. I think when she passed away, that was the point where I was like, I just…The last few weeks were just so rapid and chaotic that at that point I was just like, inundated with all the emotion. Just with making the decision and then being left there to sit with it (if that makes sense).

Haley Radke: And your loss, too, of your mother, Amanda, was unexpected in a different way and very sudden. Do you mind sharing about that and also some of the things that were just going through your head when that was all happening? Because I think we might have this idea like, “Well, if we can sort of mentally prepare ourselves for at some point in the future, we'll sort of have this hat on, then we'll be ready for whatever comes what–no matter how shocking it is.” I don't know if that's even possible.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Definitely not. I don't think it's possible, at least not for me. And I do feel–I have always felt prepared for death in a general sense of: I've worked in a nursing home that had palliative care. I worked in hospice as a social worker. I am very supportive of the death positivity movement and have consumed a lot of that literature and material, just because I find it interesting having to also support people through death as a therapist.

And so I do think that I'm more prepared than most people, but not as prepared as I thought that I was. And of course the issue with my mom really blew that wide open. I was teaching. I teach college classes, and that includes high school kids that are eligible for college classes, as well as main campus classes. So I bring psychology and sociology classes to high schools because not all the kids have licenses. This is a program that my college really wants to expand. So they were there that day taking my picture for a local magazine. I didn't know that they were coming and they walk in… (fortunately, I brushed my hair pretty good that day).

They're like, “Okay, can you erase Stanley Milgram off the dry erase board and put something more pleasant?” We're setting all this up and my phone is ringing and it's on mute or whatever. It's on vibrate, but it's still out of control (you know, when your phone's on vibrate and you don't wanna receive calls, then the vibration might as well be as loud as the ring). So my phone was going nonstop and I'm like a p– cuz my director's there with the photographer with the reporter. All of the students like…, and I'm just like, “My phone does not normally ring while I'm teaching. I am so sorry.” So I'm like, “I turned my phone off.” I'm so angry and just trying to keep my job. So after that, I forgot that my phone was off and I'm driving to main campus to teach another psychology class there. And I had turned it back on and I had all these missed calls and I'm like, Oh my gosh, what student loan thing didn't I pay? (Cuz that’s usually what it is).

Or, What did my child do at school, anyway? But I noticed that the Caller ID said Florida, and I remembered that my parents were on vacation in Florida (or they were heading down there). And I'm like, I bet you they’ve arrived there. I guess I should... And then I realized (cuz I didn't realize before), that I had a voicemail and so on this voicemail is a chap— there's several messages from a chaplain saying, “Amanda, your parents have been involved in a very serious accident. We need you to call immediately. Please call us right away.” And there were multiple messages to that effect.

So I called. I believe the chaplain's name was Scott, and I reached him and he said something… I don't even know exactly what it was, and it may have just been–he may have very well said, “We have a concern about your mom, but your dad seems to be okay.” Like he may have said that, but whatever it is he did say, I remember that my mind was: Both of my parents are dead. That is what I heard. And so I just–I was shocked having to lose both of my parents at the same time.

And then the chaplain said, “ Let me see if your dad's awake.” And I was like, Oh, okay. All right. There's hope. Wait, what? My dad didn't want to talk to me. And he probably had a concussion (I realize now), but immediately, I'm like, I'm being rejected. That was really hard for me. And I also know that my dad would probably do something like that.

I'm telling myself this in this moment: He would do something like that because he wants me to focus on my mom. He doesn't wanna consume any time or energy that could be spent on her, because he's always okay. And so these are the things that I'm telling myself. I'm trying to get information from the chaplain about my mom and he said, “She's not here. She went to another hospital.” And when he told me the name (and I've also worked in hospital systems and emergency rooms)--

When he told me the name of the hospital, I was very concerned, because it was not an advanced trauma level hospital. And so if someone's being taken there, they either have very little chance (and they're just going there to be stabilized, potentially because it's the closest), or they're going there because they have a few scratches. It's either one or the other. And so the thoughts that things are not okay continued. So I did get a hold of– That hospital had not called me and I got a hold of them.

And they put me on the phone with a surgeon and he said that they had operated on her. “She's in surgery right now,” and he's just telling me every gruesome detail that you could imagine. Like, he was describing that they think she hit her head (which could be the main problem), but there's internal bleeding that they need to stabilize. And then he was just describing her limb injuries (that even if they stabilized her brain, even if they stabilized the internal bleeding, she's gonna have to deal with horrible injuries to all of her limbs). And I'm just…

And I'm like, He's explaining it in this way to me for a reason, because the feeling that I got from it was that her dying might be a saving grace (in a way), because otherwise she's gonna suffer for the rest of her life, (which is what I picked up it that he might be trying to communicate to me in a very weird, clinical, “doctorly” way). So they didn't ask me to consent to anything at all, and technically my dad is the next kin (whether or not you would consider him incapacitated or not, I don't know). But he basically said, “Just don't expect her to make it.” And that was the end of that.

So I said, “Okay, thank you for your time. Please go back in the operating room and save her.” So now I'm like– I'm driving home. I told my students, “I gotta go.” They're like, “Are you okay?” I'm like, “No.” (But I am laughing cuz I'm uncomfortable). ”But it is. I've gotta go do something. So you guys are good. Everybody gets an A! I gotta go. Don't worry.” Like the students always panic if they're gonna, if I cancel class, if they have–if they get marked down for anything. And I'm like, “Nope, you're good.” So I go home. I'm feeling horrible for my students. And my husband got me the next, very next flight out of Baltimore to go down.

The doctor had told me, “Just go to your dad, cuz there's no hope here.” Cuz they were in, they were like three hours apart, the hospitals. And so I decided to go to my dad and as I was packing up, I got a call from the hospital, telling me that they are now transferring my mom. I was like, “I was told my mom was gonna die.” And the registrar (who really just wants consent to transfer and the insurance information) is like, “Apparently, she's a fighter!”

I'm like, so awkward. It's just so awkward. I'm like, “Yes she is. Okay. So she's being transferred to this hospital. Okay.” So, that hospital was also really far away from my dad. So I consented to that. They were gonna airlift her; I gave them all the information that I could, and then I got on the plane. I paid for the service on the plane where you can text from the plane, and so I'm texting various relatives. I'm letting my dad's job know, I'm letting people…(I don't know why, like I just felt the need to do something, to be productive on this airplane).

And that was a really awkward experience that we could also probably talk about, like at some point: how people react when you tell them bad news like this. I felt from some people that I was almost…They couldn't accept that I was telling them that my mom was probably gonna die and my dad almost died.

And so they almost interrogated me (like I didn't know what I was talking about), and that happened multiple times: “No, no, no. What do you mean that she's gonna die? Who told you that?” And I'm just like, “No, what I need from you right now–I need to let you know not to call either of them. And my dad's not gonna be at work on Monday or Tuesday.” So, anyway, I don't know if that happened to Stephanie or not, but anyway, that's just a very weird part of being the person who has to tell.

Texting back and forth with my aunts and uncles who were in Florida, because they live there, and my aunt says, “Your cousin's picking you up from the airport.” And that was unexpected, because I was going to– Now, I was gonna go to my mom and I was Ubering there, so I didn't understand that. And so the thought in my head was, My mom died, because otherwise, my cousin would be at the hospital with my mom. Like, Why is she…?

And my aunt– I texted back and I said, “She's dead, isn't she?” And my aunt's like, “I'm not texting you back about this.” Like just…, and I'm like, “Okay.” So I texted my cousin, I'm like, “She died, didn't she?” I am not the type of person that..., I don't like surprises. I don't wanna wait an hour to find out.

And my cousin was like, “We can talk about things when you get here.” Neither one of them wanted to be in a place to give news like that through a text. And I understand that, but that's just not what I needed, because what ended up happening was I got off the plane and the police department called me.

And on the other end of the phone, was a sobbing police officer. And he said, “I am so sorry. My mom also just died in a car accident. I'm an Iraq veteran and I've seen a lot of terrible things in my life. And this brought me right back to being in that desperation, and wanting to save somebody that you care about (or someone else cares about). I did CPR on her, and I tried so hard, and I'm so sorry.” And he's crying, so now I knew she died. Like she was pronounced–What happened was, she was pronounced dead at the scene and they brought her back at the hospital. So he didn't know that they had brought her back; he just thought that she, they had…

She had coded at the scene. I don't wanna say they pronounced her, but she was pulseless at the scene, and he did not think– he already had thought that I already knew. And I didn't say… I just thanked him. I was there for him. I listened to him. I comforted him. I told him I was sorry for his mother's loss, but now I knew, and it was a police officer that told me. It wasn't my own family.

So then I did see my cousin at the airport, who picked me up, and she did. And the first thing she said to me was, “I didn't wanna text you that.” I'm like, “Yeah, I already texted myself that in my mind, so too late. But I get it.” So they took me to see my dad, cuz I didn't wanna see my mom. I didn't. She was already gone; I didn't want to. I've had OCD my whole life and a lot of that is very imagery in my mind, and I don't want that image stuck in my head repeatedly. So I opted not to go see her. But I had to be the one that told my dad, because he was not being kept updated at all.

So that was awful having to tell him. And as we entered, we approached the room (my cousin and I). And I said, “My dad, I don't think he knows how to do ‘sad.’ He knows how to do ‘angry.’ So when I tell him he may yell and kick me out, and you have to be okay with that. You can't defend me, cuz it's not about me. It'll be fine.” But he didn't; he cried. And that's the fourth time I've ever seen my dad cry in my whole life. So that's the whole kind of the tale of losing my mom.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. Stephanie, did you have any similar experiences? I know that you said your first mother didn't really have connections, which is why you ended up doing some of those decision making things at the end.

What about telling friends or family of yours that you were going through this? Did you share it with anyone? Did you keep it private? What was that like for you?

Stephanie Oyler: In the beginning, I kept it private from friends. I did tell my adoptive mother when she was in the hospital and sick, just because I have a younger sister, who was also adopted with me. She was adopted after I was adopted, but we have the same mother.

We handle adoption differently. She was not really involved and did not have a relationship with my mom, but I still wanted to keep her updated on what was happening. So in that sense, yes, I did tell them. But when my mom passed away, that was like a very different level of interaction with people, because nobody really knew how to address, how to even speak to me. “Are you sad? I mean, she didn't raise you.” And that was really like the overall–and people even asked me, they were like, “How should I react?” Some, I think a couple of people actually asked that.

And it was really hard because I didn't feel like I got the recognition that I feel like I should have gotten with it because people just didn't– In their mind, they were like, She wasn't really your mom, she didn't raise you, so it's probably not as bad.

And I got that from my adoptive family, as well, to an extent. And there was a lot of emotions, and probably a lot of things that were said that really hurt me. And I just had to step back from a couple of people, just because they weren't willing to see that this was very hurtful.

And I had a relationship with my mom for 12 years and was very interactive with her. I mean, my kids were at the hospital with me when I had to make the decision. So it was really difficult and I didn't get–I didn't really get any condolences that you would think. So...

Haley Radke: I'm sorry that you went through that. And we've actually talked about grief before on the Healing Series, and we've really dug into disenfranchised grief, which is really what Stephanie's kind of explaining to us. It's like, you're not getting the casseroles after a funeral. You're not–and people are just saying, “Oh, really?” That’s so–Ugh. Yikes.

And Amanda, you were saying that you were sort of having to explain things to people? You were getting interrogated. It's very interesting, like the different reactions. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with those really (oh my goodness!) life-altering is not really an overstatement. I think that's really accurate in this circumstance.

So thank you so much for sharing those things deeply personal and I hope it'll really be helpful for our listeners. I really want to continue this conversation, because you guys are also trained therapists and so you have another whole lens to look at your experiences through. So we're gonna come back and do that next week. But for now, why don't you share where we can connect with you online. And Stephanie, why don't you share first.

Stephanie Oyler: I just launched my business, Adoptee LIT llc.com. It is a consulting business for adoptive parents, mentoring for adoptees, and then it's gonna have an education piece with trainings, and webinars, and stuff like that.

You can find me there. I also have a blog (which if you go on my main website, there's a link to that as well).

Haley Radke: Perfect, and I think you've got links for social media as well on adopteelitllc.com. And Amanda, how about you?

Amanda Transue-Woolston: I am on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. (I’m trying to think of where else…) So most of my handles at most social media places is @AmandaTDA (for Declassified Adoptee), I think except for my Facebook page (which is just The Declassified Adoptee). But all of my social media is linked at my website. So I have amandawoolston.com and also declassifiedadoptee.com.

Haley Radke: Perfect. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you for having us.

Stephanie Oyler: Thank you.

Amanda Transue-Woolston: This is great. Thank you so much for starting. This is the start of our journey talking about mother loss. So you are the first–we're gonna take a lot of the things that we uncovered today through your questions to help develop the rest of what we want to teach people about these experiences. So thank you so much.

Stephanie Oyler: Yeah. Thank you.

Haley Radke: Okay. So I think that was very powerful. I'm so grateful to Amanda and Stephanie for sharing their stories with us, and next week we look at mother loss with their therapist lenses on and we learn some lessons from them–things that they have taken away during their grieving process, things they feel that the adoptee community really needs to be aware of, and it's just all super duper important.

I shared off-mic with Amanda, the impact that her work has had on me over the last number of years. You guys probably already know Amanda's work over at The Declassified Adoptee and (of course) she started the well, well-beloved Lost Daughters’ website. So those are some resources that you definitely should be checking out.

And I'm so excited for Stephanie with her new endeavors. Make sure you go and give her a follow as well links to all of their contact info will be over in the show notes.

I'm just so glad to be back. Can't wait to start podcasting weekly again. It is my joy to be able to bring you this content, without which I wouldn't be able to do this, without my monthly Patreon supporters. So thank you so much.

If you have signed up, adopteeson.com/partner has details of how you can access the other weekly show I do: Adoptees Off Script and we are talking a lot about adoptee-written books over there. We are also doing some semi-regular Zoom calls with members of the Patreon community and there's also a secret Facebook group.

Basically, there's a lot of stuff over there (a lot of content). And it's been really beautiful to see how people have been supporting each other, even behind the scenes, connecting through direct messages. And they'll find each other in the Facebook group and say, “Oh, I have a situation like that.” And then they take their friendship off to the DMs. So you can have personal conversations with someone else who's experienced what you're going through.

Anyway, I am so grateful for you. Thank you. I wouldn't be able to do the show without you. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details, if you are wanting to sign up for that.

And another amazing way to support the show (totally for free), is to just share this episode with a friend. Sometimes people don't know how to listen to podcasts, but you do, because you're listening right now. So you could share this with a friend that you know is adopted and maybe has lost someone close to them.

And this–they might find this conversation inspiring and hopeful, knowing that they're not alone. And yeah! Thank you for the way you share the show. I appreciate you. Thanks so much for chatting with me. It's been so long, I forget what my sign off is. How about this? Let's talk again next Friday.

148 Julayne Lee

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/148

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Episode 148, Julayne. I'm your host, Haley Radke.

Today we welcome Julayne Lee, author of Not My White Savior. Julayne shares what drew her to visit Korea for the first time in her thirties and, later, how she spent three years there working, traveling, and writing.

We also discuss adoptee activism and the role anger can play in our work. We wrap up with some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Julayne Lee. Welcome, Julayne.

Julayne Lee: Hi. Thank you for [00:01:00] having me, Haley.

Haley Radke: I feel like it's overdue. Can I say that?

Julayne Lee: Hey, we're here. We're in the middle of a pandemic, and hey, we're here. We are.

Haley Radke: Do I feel like I'm getting more yeses? Because people have nothing to do?

Julayne Lee: Maybe, we're at home, staying at home, so

Haley Radke: It's true. It's just that I have my kids around all the time, so it's hard for me to record sometimes.

Julayne Lee: That's true. That's true.

Haley Radke: Anyway, we're here. I'm so excited to have you on. Honored. Truly. You have had a deep impact in the adoptee community. I so appreciate your voice and I would love it if you would start out the way we always do. And would you share some of your story with us?

Julayne Lee: Sure. So I was adopted from South Korea when I was supposedly 10 months old. Sometimes we don't always know all the facts about our origins. And I was adopted to an all-white family in Minnesota. And at that time the agency that I was [00:02:00] adopted through required adopted parents to sign a statement that said that they promised to raise their adopted children in the Christian faith.

So that was the background that I grew up in. It's very different from how I think and believe and live my life now. So it was ultra-conservative; I went to Christian schools through college. So it was smalltown, rural Minnesota and I was the only person of color in my immediate family. And yeah, I didn't have access to like culture camps and things like that than a lot of other adoptees I've met that say, oh yeah, I went to culture camp. I know them from going to Camp Kimchi or Camp Tiger all these years.

And so I was like, where were these things? That I needed them. And also just, I think, looking at the younger generations now, maybe those who are like university [00:03:00] students now, and how they have like Asian American studies and ethnic studies and how we talk about race, too, and just having language like “people of color” and just how all the different conversations are evolving.

And not to say that makes it easier, but I feel like those are things that even though I'm not formally in school, I'm still trying to tap into teaching myself because I feel like it's very foundational to my identity. Whether I see myself this way or not, the rest of the world sees me as Asian, as Korean in the US. It's like I'm an Asian American.

Whether somebody can tell that I was adopted by white people or not. They can't, but that's the fact. I looked at what was available when I was growing up and what's available now, and I think it's vastly different. And not to say that the work is done, because I think the younger generations, what I'm learning is that they’re still finding that there's a lack of resources and support and [00:04:00] information that they need and that they have a right to.

So that's part of my growing up. And then I went back to Korea for the first time with a group of other overseas adopted Koreans. The whole program was, it was Korean-government sponsored, well I should say partially sponsored. And so that was like my first time to go to anywhere, be anywhere where I was in the majority, where I didn't feel like I stood out.

Haley Radke: How old were you then?

Julayne Lee: I was early thirties, I think. Yeah. And so some of my friends had gone back when they were in junior high, like a family trip or something, and it just always seemed so impossible. It was so far away. It was like far east, these foreign lands and everything. Remember, too, the internet was not really available. Like we were doing dial-up. You remember dial-up?

Haley Radke: I do. I remember that noise.

Julayne Lee: Exactly. But the thing is, [00:05:00] I think the internet has made the world so much smaller. Oh, it's accessible. It's oh, you went there, I went there. It's possible. Whereas at that time, there was no access to one book from 20 years ago that had really bad black and white pictures. And just like the cost and like who would I go with and what would I do when I got there. It just seems so impossible.

So to have that opportunity, which came through a very interesting chain of somebody I worked with, her sister had a friend who had a friend who was a Korean adoptee who had gone back the year before. And so I met up with her and it's the most interesting thing because like, again, we were just like trying to contact each other via email, I think.

And so I was meeting up with this other Korean adoptee woman and it was like a Saturday morning at Barnes & Noble for coffee, and I think I was meeting up with her more 'cause I was interested in the trip. I really didn't know if I wanted to talk to her, but it's like I [00:06:00] had to connect with her to get the information about this opportunity to travel.

And at that point I had traveled to Europe and so international travel was not unfamiliar, but to go back to my country of origin, I think that's like a whole ‘nother thing. It's not a vacation. That's the thing when people would say things to me like, oh, are you getting excited for your fun vacation? It's gonna be such a great trip. And it is not. It's not that at all.

Haley Radke: Do you remember some of the feelings you had when you were preparing to go?

Julayne Lee: Oh, yeah. And in Minnesota I should say at that time like in the suburbs if another Asian American person shows up, it's probably the person we're waiting for. Because I had no idea what she looked like because there was no social media then, but because there's so few of us, it's like a pretty good chance that was her.

Plus it's like a blind date. You're both looking around, and I told her, we're good friends now. But I actually told her, I said I was actually partly hoping you wouldn't show up. [00:07:00] But you know what? It ended up being the best thing.

But yes, in preparation to go, I was doing a birth family search and just trying to see if I can learn a little bit of Korean before I go. Because I had no exposure to the Korean language when I was growing up. I think I met her in January and by that summer I was on a plane to go to Korea and I had just immersed myself in the overseas adopted Korean community in Minnesota, which at that time was very active and I think still is.

And that was also the year that Deann Borshay’s film, First Person Plural, came out. So there are a lot of public events around that. And just being able to meet other adult adoptees who had gone back to Korea and they seemed normal. So okay, even though I was going through this jumble of emotions. Just feeling ripped apart before, during, and after.

At least there was this community that I could look at them and go, okay, they seem good. They seem like they're [00:08:00] not freaking out, so that kind of was a reassurance to me. Because it is, definitely. I think every time somebody would say something like, oh, are you excited for your fun vacation, it just deflated the importance and maybe even just the intimacy of a first trip back or any trip back for an overseas adoptee.

Because, yes, you have to take vacation time off of work to go, and even like last summer I went back and I hadn't been back in five years and, it's okay, I've done this before. Why am I still going through all of these emotions? Maybe not to the same degree as I did the first time I went back, but still, it was just like, oh my gosh.

And one of the best things somebody said to me when I got back from Korea and she's not adopted, but she understands, and she's a fellow poet as well, but she just acknowledged, she's yeah, how was Korea? She just was like, she knew [00:09:00] it wasn't a vacation. And as we're talking, I was like, you know what, it's still [censored] up.

And we just laughed and proceeded to eat our pasta and dessert and it was like, yeah, she gets it. So it's reassuring, at this point in my life now, to have friends who not only are adopted, like we don't have to explain things, but to also have friends who have been on this journey with me and been supportive and who get it as well, but on a different, in a different way.

And then just to add I went back to Korea in 2004 to actually live and work and went on a one-way ticket. I had no idea how long I would stay there. And that was another thing that people kept pressing me about, how long are you gonna be there? What are you gonna do? Even adoptees were like, when are you coming back?

And I literally did not want to say, oh, I'm going to go for a year or two years. And I know some people are able to make those kinds of [00:10:00] plans. But I was done with grad school. I was not tied to a job or anything, so I was just like, I'm just gonna go, obviously I'm gonna get a job.

I ended up getting a job teaching English as many people do, and then I was like, I don't wanna put a timeframe on it 'cause I had two goals. One was to experience life in Korea beyond that summer experience I’d had a few years before. I wanted to know basic things like because it was in the summer, it's so hot and humid, it's like nonstop humidity.

And I was like, I just wanna know things like what is it like to need a sweater? I want to know what is Christmas like in Korea. I wanted to know. These seemed like very basic things, but those are things I wanna know. So that was one of my goals, which, really, it's like after a year it's okay, now you know all the seasons, you know how it goes.

But then I also just wanted to travel around Asia and that region of the world as well as Australia and New Zealand. And [00:11:00] I was able to do quite a bit of travel and I think it was always interesting to be in another Asian country where sometimes I could blend in quite well. Sometimes people knew I was a tourist, sometimes they didn't.

And just how that felt. I remember Japan. I was like, wow, I could live here because I felt like I blended in. Like people come up to me and speak to me in Japanese and it's, okay, I think you just asked me for directions, but I can't help you. But it was just nice to blend in but not feel all this emotional baggage that I did in Korea. Like, why don't you speak Korean? Why don't you understand the customs and cultures and all the traditions and things like that.

And I don't smoke, but I know that in Korea, at least at that time, it's changed a little bit now, but at that time, if you are a woman smoking just out on the street on the sidewalk, like anyone, like older men would come up to you and ask [00:12:00] you like, why you're doing that. You should be standing over there out of sight and things like that. And I just thought, who cares? I get that it's the culture, but I don't agree with it. And I don't care.

So anyway, going back to traveling in Asia, just again, being able to fit in, feel like I fit in, but yet not feeling those expectations and that weight of being in the majority but being an outsider still.

Haley Radke: I'm curious what you did there for three years. Did you know people when you went back in 2004? Did you know where to stay? Did you work? Were you writing? It just seems like you just talked about going there on a one-way ticket, and I just thought, oh my goodness. I don't know if I could go anywhere on a one-way ticket. It just sounds so brave and courageous.

Julayne Lee: Right, and so I think one of the benefits that the overseas adopted Korean community has is that because we're, I think, the [00:13:00] oldest population of intercountry adoptees and have been going back to Korea for so many years, that there's quite an infrastructure in Korea. And so there's an organization called GOAL, which is Global Overseas Adoptees Link, and there's a link to it on my website.

And they're an NGO and they were founded by a group of overseas adopted Koreans who are back there, I think it's been over 20 years now. And from Europe, from the US, maybe from Canada too, I can't remember, but who just said, hey, we need resources. We're back here. We're not leaving. And so they help a lot of adoptees with birth family searches, or just if you need help getting a phone or getting your bank account set up, those tiny little things.

In Korea, if you don't have the language or know how the process works, that can be kind of a big thing. But if you are living there you need those things. So I was in contact with GOAL from when I had gone back previously, so I knew I had [00:14:00] that network and I actually knew two or three people who were living there. And a friend of mine from Minnesota had moved back months, I think, just a few months before me.

So I had a few people and then I actually moved there right before a huge conference. So there's overseas Korean adoptees, not only in the US and Canada, but Australia, a number of European countries like Denmark and Netherlands. All over the place. We're probably in at least a dozen countries. And so there was this huge conference in Korea. And so I got there just a couple days before that on purpose because I was like, okay, hopefully, the adoptees that live in Korea, they'll come out and I'll connect it with them. And which I did.

And so I remember when I started teaching university a couple weeks later and the teachers were like, oh, Julayne is a new teacher, we should invite her to dinner and stuff. And I always had plans and they're like, wow, she's so plugged in. But part of it was people that were actually living there, but then because people stayed after the conference, [00:15:00] then they were still there.

So it helped a lot to be able to just have that network and then have that event. Also to be able to connect me with the right people because things have changed in the few years since I had been there. But I found a job. Fortunately, last minute somebody was not able to come back, so I was able to get a job right away.

But I do think, yes, it was a little adventurous, I guess, but I just didn't see any other way to do it. I felt like if I put a time limit on it that I would be limiting myself potentially. And also if I said, oh, I'm going for a year, and then what if I get over there and in six months I was like, oh my gosh, this totally sucks, I'm leaving. Then I would feel like a failure.

So I was just like, no, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. And people would, again, how long will you stay there? And I would just say for as long as I do. [00:16:00] There shouldn't be a limit on it. And I know some people that have lived there much longer or lived there multiple times, and I think we all continue to have some type of interest or curiosity or pull back.

I know some people like never want to go back, or that's what they say, or they've never gone, and that's fine too. I just think it's also challenging because of the time. You want to go probably for at least two weeks, that would be ideal. And then it costs, and yeah, it can be challenging to make the experience actually work.

And I think a lot of people don't want to go alone necessarily, which is completely understandable because it can be terrifying. So I'm grateful that I was able to go with a group and some of those people I'm still in contact with and still friends with, which is great.

Haley Radke: It sounds like you were super active in building your community for yourself, which it is amazing. I'm curious, you mentioned before about your first time [00:17:00] going that you had started a birth search and were looking into the culture and things.

Did you ever really want to find your first family? Was that kind of a goal while you were there? Did you continue searching or did you leave that?

Julayne Lee: I think at the time there was a lot of focus on looking for your first family, and I think there still is. I think fortunately, I hope that the narrative has shifted enough that's not what people think that we're all about as adoptees, because it's not and some people want nothing to do with it or they reunite and it's a horrible experience. They get rejected again and again.

So I knew that with Korea. I knew because a lot of the agencies are completely dishonest and corrupt and fabricate files, fabricate profiles of children, that it would be a challenge. And so I'm still looking. I think my reasons and my quest to make connections with my Korean family have shifted over the [00:18:00] years.

I mean, it's a loss. It's a loss. I don't think there's any other way to say it. Somebody on Twitter the other day was like, and they're an adoptee, they said, okay, hey, adoptees, what's a phrase or a word that you can't stand when it comes to adoption? And it's: Oh, we love you so much. You were meant to be in our family. Yeah, I see you shaking your head, whatever. Okay. We get it, right? It's no, I don't think so.

Haley Radke: That reminds me of one of your poems that you have this list of over 20 things that people have said to you about being adopted, which I'm sure we can all imagine what those are.

Julayne Lee: Exactly. I would love it if people, one thing they get out of listening to this podcast is that adoptees are not one-dimensional. It's not all about birth family search because it's opening up sometimes. It's opening up old wounds. You just don't know. So would I still love to know the facts and the truth. Absolutely. [00:19:00]

I know that a lot of people are doing DNA testing right now. There's a part of me that refuses to pay for it because I think the Korean government should pay for it. I think the adoption agencies should pay for it. I also think that with searching, I know some people have hired private detectives or whoever, and, yes, the government should pay for that.

What I find ironic is that there's all this talk about reunification between North and South Korea, which I'm all for. And there are families that have been divided between the North and the South and like all this push and movement to reunite those families and yes, absolutely. And then at the same time over here, we're continually dividing families and doing nothing to help those of us who want to reunite with our birth families, actually doing the opposite and keeping information from us.

And so I just find that a great irony within Korea. Who do you [00:20:00] think you are to be so hypocritical and that it's okay? And that we would not notice, that we would not notice.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Even when you were talking about how the trips are like partially sponsored by the Korean government, that's the least they could do, the very bare minimum.

Julayne Lee: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Speaking of Twitter, I just wanna read one of your tweets from a couple days ago.

**Julayne Lee:**Gosh. Oh no.

Haley Radke: It's nothing bad. It's great.

Julayne Lee: Which one?

Haley Radke: It's great.

Julayne Lee: Oh, I know which one you're gonna read.

Haley Radke: Oh, okay. Let's see if you're right. You're replying to someone who I just think is ridiculous, and so I'm not even gonna mention, but you say,

“I regret that adoption has to exist. I regret that families have to be divided. I regret that my name, culture, language were erased and silenced. I regret that child trafficking is presented as “adoption.” I regret that TRAs (meaning transracially adopted people) experience racism in our own families.”

Well said [00:21:00] and thought. Anything else you wanna elaborate on?

Julayne Lee: If Twitter had more characters, I would probably have gone on, but I feel like I've tweeted other renditions of that before. But yeah, that could have been like a whole thread, right? I mean, I just thought it was interesting how many other adoptees were like retweeting and doing their own version too. And I think it's, again, it's like developing that counter narrative and developing their own narrative, which has been fairly absent, I feel.

And so thank goodness for Adoptees On podcast because it gets more of our voices out into the world and makes it more accessible, not just for adoptees to feel validated and like they're not alone, but hopefully people actually, other than adoptees, listen to us and learn, oh, okay, a lot of them are saying similar things, like maybe I should sit back and listen. Take a step back.

Haley Radke: So I mentioned at the beginning I was really excited to talk to you because I followed you for a long time and I think you're a very [00:22:00] strong voice. And when we do our recommended resources, I'm gonna talk a little bit about your book.

And I'm curious, I don't know how to ask this. I hope I'm being polite. Okay. Julayne, you just call me out if I'm not. So I have noticed that as I go on in my thirties, like I get braver, I don't care as much what people think. And I'm curious how that has been for you as the years have gone by in activism, how that has affected your ability to just say it like you mean it.

Like even as we've been talking, I notice you just call it like it is, you're not trying to sugarcoat things for people. You're really speaking up. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.

Julayne Lee: Absolutely, I do. I think after I started to connect with adult adoptees in Minnesota, like I really didn't know anything about the Korean War and then people were like, oh yeah, that is still happening, like Korean adoptions are still happening even [00:23:00] though the country has developed so much.

And not to say that there aren't still working-class, maybe poor people in Korea, but look at K-pop, look at Samsung, look at capitalism, right? And so before I moved back to Korea, I was like, why is this still happening? And I had all these thoughts and feelings of this needs to fricking stop. This is not okay.

But yet I felt like saying anything about that would have been just like I would've been criticized so much, even in the adoptee community. So it was like very quiet conversations with some friends that they're like, we need to do something. I don't know. I was like, should I start an organization? I dunno. So I was involved in the Korean Adoptee organization in Minnesota, but it didn't have a critique or a political aspect to it at that time.

I think overall the adoptee community has changed and evolved since then. But when I was moving back to Korea, so I [00:24:00] spent a couple weeks on the West coast in California and such before I actually got to Korea just visiting with friends. And I remember getting this email from a Korean adoptee who I had known in Minnesota.

She moved back to Korea like a year before, and they were starting this organization called Adoptee Solidarity Korea. And the purpose of the organization was to have a critical look at intercountry adoption. Why is this happening? Does it still need to be happening? What are the factors and what is Korea doing about it and what can we do about it? So it was like the first political organization to take this critical approach to adoption.

And not to say that we think adoptees are bad, but it's like adoption under certain circumstances is bad. It's like we've said, it's dividing family and through Adoptee Solidarity Korea it really gave me a community that validated my feelings around [00:25:00] adoption and gave me space and a place to voice some pretty strong opinions that I felt like I couldn't even say before.

And we experienced some backlash to some of the work that we were trying to do. And so I think that backlash is not exactly fun. I don’t know anybody who enjoys backlash, but because we were all going through it together. I mean, I look back on that now and I think that experience gave me whatever it is that somebody needs to be able to weather the storm when you take an unpopular view.

And I did start writing. You asked, what were you doing for you? So I was teaching English. What were you doing there for three and a half years? I taught English to university students. I traveled a lot. I was involved in ASK, so that was busy. But I did start.

I've done some writing before I moved back to Korea, but I think because Korea just exasperated a lot of [00:26:00] things for me. And it was like writing was the only way I could make sense of things just because I didn't always have the words to voice how I felt and all these conflicting feelings and emotions I would have on an ongoing basis and trying to get up and work every day.

But I think when you write nobody's there to correct. It's not like here we're recording this, I get one chance with you today. I was listening to Hanif Abdurraqib last night. He's a poet in the Midwest, and he was saying, it's like every poem is really a set of questions. And I've heard other writers say every draft is like notes for your final product. And so it's like writing, and it wasn't necessarily journaling, some was journaling, but like just writing.

And then I had friends who had a monthly fundraiser and they would switch off whether it was like DJs, bands, and then started doing an open mic. And so I feel [00:27:00] like writing is, was one step for me. And then being able to actually speak those words that were very, during that time a lot of my culture was super, super angry, but being able to say those words out loud with an audience, they're kind of a captive group. It's very validating, it's very cathartic.

And then some of my friends would say, wow, that's exactly what I was thinking, or exactly how I felt, or whatever. And some people wanted to talk to me about it after those, but I really didn't wanna talk to anybody about it. I just need to get this out. But one of my friends too, I remember.

We were taking a break during the open mic and so we were outside. I was reading at the end and she was having a cigarette and so I was just reading through whatever I was planning to read that night, just practicing. And she said to me, are you gonna read something angry? I hope you read something angry.

I was like, yes, reading something. Like at that point I don't think there was anything that wasn't [00:28:00] angry. Let's just put it that way. But I think anger is a really interesting thing. During National Adoption Awareness Month in November, which I know some of us adoptees have tried to reclaim and get our voices out there more that month.

But I posted something on Twitter and just said, what are you angry about? And I still am a little baffled and I find it very interesting how much interaction that tweet got, because I was basically just trying to say, hey, it's okay if you're angry, but talk about it.

And a lot of people were saying very similar things. There were definitely some themes, and I basically said, only adoptees should be commenting and that other people need to sit and listen. But it's like anger. What I've learned from myself is that it's not a bad thing.

I don't believe in good or bad emotions or right or wrong emotions. You can't always control how you feel. I feel that if you try and control how you feel, that can actually be pretty damaging. Because I feel like sometimes [00:29:00] people have tried to control how I feel, like you should be grateful because you're adopted, you should feel different.

It's like you feel how you feel and then the decisions you make in response to your feelings. I think that's where we have to make the best choices that we can. And I read this book called Anger. It's by Thich Nhat Hanh, and I was afraid to read it. I read it. I bought it in 2017, I was at a meditation retreat, so I bought it in 2017.

My book was coming out in 2018, and one of the things my publisher said to me when we were pre-contract. They were like, one of the things we like about your manuscript is that there's so much anger in it. And I was like, wow, usually it's oh my gosh, you're so angry. Get over it. Don't overreact. So it's like the fact that they liked that.

And then I found this book on anger and I was afraid to read it because I was like, oh my gosh, am I [00:30:00] going to read this and then I have to not have my angry poems in the book? But it wasn't like that at all. It was just about hey, take care of your anger. Embrace your anger. Pay attention to it. There's nothing wrong with being angry. But it's what you do with it that can have a long lasting, positive impact. Or it could have negative results too.

So I think anger is an interesting thing, and there's another poet I follow on Twitter, Chen Chen, who, I think the phrase he came up with the other day. He tweeted something about angry joy. And I need to find the tweet again because it was like whatever he was discussing, I was like, yes, that is such a thing. Angry joy, like now I'm like, okay, I need to figure out how that fits in my life.

But I feel like we have to make space for the whole spectrum of our thoughts and our emotions because that's who we are.

Haley Radke: I have one more question for you in that same vein. [00:31:00] So as you tweet and you're calling stuff out and you post and write. There are a few adoptees who I am watching and listening to, especially in this time, and I'm a white woman and I'm totally aware of that. So I am just taking it in and seeing, okay, what are my next steps?

And so as I watch you and other adoptee leaders calling out racism and different, very problematic things, I wonder how you are balancing this. The anger at the injustices and also being able to be listened to and heard, because I think that trope is the “angry adoptee” that just spews venom. And no one's gonna listen to them unless they like a hundred percent agree. [00:32:00] because it's uncomfortable. And how do you balance that?

I think you do it really well. And I think there's a few other adoptees that really do this well. How do you balance saying the challenging things and speaking from the heart, but not alienating everyone and losing some of your audience, who hopefully you can change their mind and change their perspective.

Julayne Lee: Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't really thought about that too much before, but I guess, I think Twitter's an interesting place. I mean, social media is.

Haley Radke: That’s the truth.

Julayne Lee: Yeah. But I actually opened my Twitter account maybe eight or nine years ago, because we were using it at work. And I was like I need to learn how to use it. I need to learn how it works. And my account was locked down, it was private. And then with my book coming out, people are like, you can keep it that way, but maybe you wanna make it public. And I was like, oh no. And then they're like, oh, and you should get Instagram. I was like, [00:33:00] oh no.

So I think it's something that I have to constantly finesse because, yes, there are days when I just want to rage on Twitter. I think we all probably have those days. And then sometimes I step back and I'm like, okay, would I say this to this person's face? Sometimes yes, I would, but I like to ask a lot of questions too, because I think that opens up a conversation. You can ask questions that are pretty pointed that get the point of point across but that do leave it open a little bit.

But I think I recognize too that I have a lot to learn still. I've learned so much from adoptee Twitter. Oh my gosh. For somebody who went from their Twitter account being completely private, now I wish there was this thing that would time me out. You've spent too much time on Twitter today. But like all the adoptees I've connected with. It's there's like an adoptive Twitter community, there's constantly people who are like, that I've never met, and I probably never will, but who are like, Hey, [00:34:00] I'm having a bad day because of this with my adoptive mom or my birth mom, or whatever.

And we're always like, we're here for you no matter what. So I think one of the things I've learned that kind of saddens me, and that I guess in some ways I shouldn't be surprised by this, but I found it just for some reason. I guess I thought the younger generation would not be having the same issues. I'm like, they have so many more resources. But just because the resources are there, somebody didn't give you access to them or support you in pursuing that supportive environment, then no, the same issues are still ongoing.

So it's quite sad to me that the adoption industry, if you will, has not changed at all, which they should be doing way better because we're not the first ones to tell them that they've messed up.

Haley Radke: I wonder if you think this sometimes. I feel like [00:35:00] some of the things that a lot of the agencies are doing now, it's just like this gross lip service.

Julayne Lee: Oh sure.

Haley Radke: They're like, oh, we have these supports for you, these support groups for you. But it's not what we need. And so they can say, oh no, we are doing these things. But, really, it's worthless in my opinion.

Julayne Lee: From my understanding, a lot of the agencies provide post-adoption services or PAS until we turn 16 or something like that. All of the resources for adult adoptees that I'm aware of, the ones that are viable, we've created because we know what didn't work and they don't provide. Like they should provide funding for those things. Like we shouldn't have to struggle for resources. And your website is an awesome resource.

Just hey, here's a group of. [00:36:00] mental health professionals that are adoptees, if that's what you're looking for. That alone is huge. Just to be like, oh, boom. But I, yeah, I just think that people don't understand. Like somebody asked that on Twitter the other day too. They already said adoptees need post-adoption services our entire lives, and we are all like, yeah. It's not like you graduate from being an adoptee.

It's not like it ends when you become an adult. We don't age out of being an adoptee. This is a lifelong journey. It doesn't end. And when I was looking at the website, it's yeah, it comes into play when you start talking about relationships and having your own kids and like doing the birth family search and the reunion. It's this constant navigation.

I feel like it's this constant navigation of life and of society because the only people who I feel really get us, is us. Yes, there are some allies out there who get it, but they're few and far between. And I feel like they end up taking up more space instead of us just, like, stepping back and [00:37:00] saying, hey, you need to try to validate us.

Haley Radke: There's that too.

Julayne Lee: Yeah. The reason you said that you started Adoptees On was because the podcasts you were finding were for adoptive parents and there was nothing for us. So you created this for us. Thank you. Because as I was looking through the list, I was like, oh good, there's people on here that I would really love to hear them talk about their books, but because of the pandemic, but it's like, hey, I can hear them on the podcast. That's awesome.

Haley Radke: Thanks for saying that. I do think. I dunno, when you're talking about that, all I can think of is that on Twitter, if you're following, like any adoption hashtags, right? A lot of it is adoptive parents being like, we need more supports. I'm like, really? You need more supports? Okay. Great. Maybe you should have fundraised a little more. [00:38:00]

Julayne Lee: Don't go. Don't GoFund me.

Haley Radke: No. Okay. Let's move into doing our recommended resources and I wanna give a little space to talking about your book of poetry, which is called Not My White Savior, which is such a perfect title. I love it.

And as you mentioned, even your publisher said there's a lot of anger in your writing and I just felt it was really powerful and it's political, it's activist oriented. I really appreciated how you included some comments about adoptees we've lost to suicide.

It's very insightful and you learn a lot about Korea, especially if you're not familiar with the Korean adoption program and those kinds of things. It's a wealth of knowledge. I really, really enjoyed it and it's also very challenging to read emotionally because you take us on a rollercoaster, Julayne.

One of my favorites, and we're [00:39:00] gonna have to beep this, unfortunately, is called “[censored You, White Barbie.”

Julayne Lee: Oh my gosh. I'll go ahead, I'll comment.

Haley Radke: No, please. I wanna hear you comment on that.

Julayne Lee: That was actually the initial title of the book.

Haley Radke: Perfect.

Julayne Lee: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Julayne Lee: And then I had a conversation or two with my attorney and we decided that might not be the best idea, but the poem stayed. So the poem is still there forever.

Haley Radke: It's very good. It's a very good one. I feel like I learned a lot about you in this and you share some very revealing things, very personal things, and I really appreciate it and I think any adoptee could connect to this book.

And when I was researching you for today's interview, I found that you have some of your readings online on YouTube. So if you wanna hear Julayne read her poems, you can hear some of them on YouTube. One more thing before [00:40:00] I’ll give you a minute to chat about your book, as well, but if you wanna hear more from Julayne, on her website she's got some links to some other podcast appearances and especially I would recommend the episode you did with Kaomi on Adapted, which is an excellent podcast.

I learned a lot. I thought it was really well done and, yeah, if you just can't get enough of our conversation, you can keep hearing more from Julayne on a few other podcasts she's been on. Okay. I'm curious now, I wanna give you a minute. So, that was the alternate title, so Not My White Savior. Do you wanna talk about that?

Julayne Lee: You mean how I came up with not my white savior?

Haley Radke: The title? Just what you wanted to give people when you wrote these poems.

Julayne Lee: I never planned to write a book. That was never the plan, 'cause I hear writers who will say, okay, I'm gonna write this many books, and I think it's great to [00:41:00] have goals, but that was never the plan.

I heard some Asian American poets in Minnesota at an adoptee event, and they weren't all adoptees. One of them was. The name of the group was Hmong Girl (sp?), and it was the first time that on stage I heard people who looked like me angry about things that I was also angry about. But yet I didn't even know, or I didn't have a way to say anything about being angry about how I was treated for my identity and so on.

And so through that I just started going to different poetry readings because I just found it very validating and got to know a lot of who the Asian American poets are. And went to a couple writing workshops. But again, I was not calling myself a poet at all. I was just like, oh, this seems interesting. And so I would go.

And then, like I said, I wrote more when I was in Korea, but it really was a way to process things. It was a way [00:42:00] to understand what I was dealing with. And then when I moved to California in 2013, I had this moment when I was packing. I just felt like, I don't know. I felt like there was going to be something about moving to California that was going to be like some type of milestone.

Not just moving to California, but I didn't know what it was, but I just had this feeling and I still remember that moment in my living room. I was packing. And I went to this seminar and I had been thinking like, hey, I'm gonna write a book. And I had no idea what genre it would be. I had no idea what it would be, just, hey, I'm gonna write a book.

And a friend of mine, my friend, who I had met at Barnes & Noble that day, she had told me a few years before that, she felt something. She had said something to the effect of, not necessarily a book, but just about telling my story. And so going along, I went to this social event, and this is like shortly after I moved to southern [00:43:00] California. So I lived in Long Beach and this event was in LA and with people from all over the world.

And this woman, she was a palm reader, or she liked to say a hand analyst, and she must have asked me to tell her something about myself. And then she's, let me see, you are going to be published. And I was just like, oh ha, ha, ha. Thank you. Have a nice evening because I was like, you have no idea, whatever. And I went to the seminar and we all had to say a goal that we've been having. So I said I'm gonna write a book.

And I was taking some writing workshops and then a poet that I admired and known for a long time, who just came out with a book as well, OCIA (sp?), he invited me to this open mic. I was like, okay, I'm doing some writing now. It might be good to go on open mic, maybe read some of it, just see how it's working.

And I didn't read anything that first night, but I was just like, okay [00:44:00] this seems like an okay space. And so I went back the next week and I read something and there were a couple people there who were like, hey, if you're interested in writing a book, we’re part of this program. And come and talk to us afterwards.

And, yeah, it's called Community Literature Initiative and it's based in LA and at the end of the nine-month writing program, you go through this author draft, you get up and I had seven minutes to read my poetry and pitch my book. And there's different publishers there. And that's what happened.

And my publisher, actually, when they had come to visit our class, at that time, they were not publishing poetry. And I was like, I'm gonna change that. And yeah, as they say, the rest is history, that's what happened. And so I've really only called myself a poet for a couple of years. Because it's okay, now that I'm gonna write a book, I guess I have to call myself a poet because I would go to all these literary events and book festivals.[00:45:00] because I just loved it.

And people would always ask me like, oh, are you a writer because you show up at this book event or whatever. I'm like, no, I write checks. That's it. I mean, I write emails, but I just felt like if I was going to say, yes, I'm a writer. Yes, I'm a poet, then there are expectations and I just didn't want that. I was just like, no, I'm just doing this thing for myself on the side.

Haley Radke: And I'm curious if you can say what does the phrase, not my white savior, mean to you?

Julayne Lee: Not my white savior means to me, and I don't think that you have to be white to be a white savior. I just wanna make that loud and clear. I've seen plenty of non-white people act like white saviors.

I've probably even done it too. I don't know. Growing up in a white church, I probably have done this, but I think when it comes to adoption, knowing that for intercountry and transracial adoption, most adopters are white. And I think there is a savior mentality [00:46:00] like, oh if you had grown up here or there, you wouldn't have these opportunities.

You wouldn't have an education, you wouldn't have, and that can very well be true. At the same time, I don't think it's necessary for adoptees to have to hear that from their adoptive parents. I feel like that's not helpful. And we didn't ask you to save us. We didn't ask to be divided from our families and have all this trauma in our lives. But yet there's this let's pat ourselves on the back because we saved this child from this wretched third world country.

And it's okay, if that's how you wanna look at yourself, that's fine, but that's not how I see it. And that's why it's like this, hey, you're not my white savior. Yes, I can be appreciative of the educational opportunities I've had, but I can also be critical of the whole system that continues to fail us into adulthood. And the system is not there to keep families [00:47:00] together.

I've become more and more. Interested in learning more about the foster care system and how it also just really fails people. There's a couple of documentaries and web series that I've watched, and I remember this one woman who I think she had aged out of the foster care system at that point and was incarcerated, and she said, there's all this funding to support like the foster care system and adoption.

She's like, why not prioritize that funding to keep families together and family preservation?

Haley Radke: Yeah, up upstream.

Julayne Lee: Exactly. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I definitely recommend Julayne's book, Not My White Savior. And I'm curious what you brought for us today. What do you wanna recommend to us?

Julayne Lee: I would like to recommend the website called Adoptee Reading, and it's adopteereading.com, and I [00:48:00] discovered it in the midst of my book coming out. Karen Pickell, I think that's how you say her name. She runs the website and it's got all these great filters you can filter by.

Is it domestic adoption? Intercountry. Transracial. You can filter by country; you can filter by was it written by an adoptee or not? I recommend it to so many people and it's interesting to me how many adoptees still don't know about it, which is another reason I put it on my website.

It's a great resource and I feel like sometimes I know that, like you've mentioned on your website, that you have different groups to attend and support groups that people are looking for, as well. But I think sometimes people want to just do some work on their own and read on their own. Just observe and lurk on the internet.

Because a lot of people say that in adoptee Facebook groups, they'll be like, hey, I've been here for a while. I think I'm ready. And I feel like reading is one way, that it can be an avenue for people [00:49:00] to feel validated, feel seen, to maybe dive into what they've been experiencing, but just never had words for, never had anywhere to go.

So I appreciate all the work that Karen has done and continues, and it's gotta be this labor of love. It's amazing. It's amazing to see how many books we've published.

Haley Radke: Oh, for sure. She keeps it up to date with new releases. Absolutely. She does an outstanding job. I don't think a lot of people know this, but on Patreon I'm doing an adoptee reading Book Club for the year.

And actually one of my cohosts Carrie and I read your book. And so we reviewed it on the Patreon podcast a few months ago. Which is what led me to reach out to you. And I have all these different categories, and so I'll often go to Karen's website to find books to make sure I know what to read next.

So yes, great recommendation. We've talked about it before and it's an amazing resource, adopteereading.com. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing your [00:50:00] story with us and your insights. Can you let us know where we can connect with you online?

Julayne Lee: Sure. So my website is julaynelee.com, and on there you can find links to my Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Medium.

I'm probably most active on Twitter. I don't always follow back, just saying, sometimes it doesn't happen, so please don't feel bad if I don't follow back. Don't take it personally.

Haley Radke: Don't follow you and unfollow you and unfollow. Follow you and unfollow till you follow back.

Julayne Lee: People do that and I don't care. I probably don't even notice. I dunno.

Haley Radke: I notice sometimes, but I'm not on enough to pay attention to that.

Julayne Lee: Yeah, like I said, I'm probably on there too much.

Haley Radke: It was such an honor to talk to you today. I'm so glad we got to connect. Thank you so much.

I'm so glad I got to have that conversation with Julayne, and I encourage you to follow her and be challenged. I think that [00:51:00] you will find her writing very impactful. I wanna say a big thank you to my monthly supporters, without which this podcast would not exist. And so thank you. If you want the show to continue, if you think it's important, go to adopteeson.com/partner to find out more details.

And one of the fun things, like I mentioned to Julayne, that we're doing this year is we are doing an Adoptee Book Club. And so every month Carrie and I will review some adoptee-written books. We've been going through all kinds of different things. The month we read Julayne's book was poetry. We've done fiction, nonfiction, memoir, all kinds, and there have been some real gems, and I think we will have some more interviews coming out of those book reviews.

So if that sounds interesting to you and you need more adoptee talk in your life. One of the bonuses for [00:52:00] Patreon supporters is another weekly podcast called Adoptees Off Script, where we include some of these book reviews. So adopteeson.com/partner to help the show continue. Thank you so much, and thanks for listening.

Let's talk again very soon.

147 Anissa and Adoptees For Justice

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/147

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Episode 147, Anissa. I'm your host, Haley Radke.

Welcome. I'm so glad you're here. Today's show is a very important one. We are talking about the issue of adoptees without citizenship today. And if you've listened to Adoptees On for any length of time, you know this is an issue that's been happening for years and years and has just really been called into attention in the last few years.

And so today I am so excited to welcome Adoptees for Justice to the show. We are gonna hear from the executive director and he's gonna teach us a little bit more about this issue. And then we are gonna hear from Anissa, an adoptee who has been deported, and we are gonna hear her full story. [00:01:00] And I encourage you to listen to the whole show because it will have an impact on you.

You can't listen and it not have an impact on you. And we are gonna wrap up and hear how you and I today can make an impact for adoptees who have been affected by not having citizenship. Now, I need to give you some content warnings. This is gonna be a challenging episode to listen to. We talk about sexual abuse.

There is mention and descriptions of domestic violence, and we also talk about suicide a few times. And so if any of those topics are really activating for you or triggering for you, please skip this episode. Make sure you're listening in a safe headspace because we really go there and talk about some really hard things today.

So with all that being [00:02:00] said, I'm really pleased that we are able to tackle this conversation and bring it to light and I challenge you to do the things that are recommended to us at the end. Because if one of us is suffering, aren't we all? I'm really honored that I'm able to bring you this story today and it's representative of many.

Well, let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Kristopher Larson, the Executive Director of Adoptees for Justice. Welcome, Kristopher.

Kristopher Larsen: Hi. Thank you for having me on.

Haley Radke: I'm really excited to talk to you today because there is some really important work that your organization is doing, and I'd love to give you a chance to just kind of talk a little bit about what Adoptees for Justice is doing and why it was created and just the issues that you guys are dealing with right now.

Kristopher Larsen: Yeah, so Adoptees for Justice [00:03:00] officially started in November, 2018. A lot of us that are part of the organization have been part of other organizations doing the citizenship work for adoptees. And when I talk about citizenship work for adoptees, that basically means intercountry adoptees that were adopted by US families, but for some reason didn't receive US citizenship.

As we know, the 2000 Child Citizenship Act granted automatic citizenship for those individuals that were adopted and that came in on IR-3 visas, which meant that the adoption was finalized in the home country. Those that came over on IR-4 visas into the US received automatic permanent residency, but would qualify for automatic citizenship once their adoption was finalized before they were 18 in the US.

Now, one of the things with that law is that it actually excludes anybody that has been [00:04:00] adopted but did not get adopted coming in on an adoption visa, I guess you could call it, because there's only two specific types of visas geared towards adoption. And that's the IR-3 and IR-4. And they also have an iteration of the H version.

In other words, if they were part of the Hague Adoption Convention. But we have people that came in on student visas, which is a non-immigrating visa. They would not qualify. We had people that come in on humanitarian visas. Those do not qualify because none of those are adoption visas that are specific to the IR-3s and IR-4s.

So one of the things that we wanted to do is go back and change that law so that it granted all intercountry adoptees a right to citizenship and this is a right that they should have when they're a child and when that adoption is finalized. One of the issues that we face, like I said, is that we also have individuals that have been deported.

Some have been deported of crime and some have been deported because there [00:05:00] is a simple little mistake on their paperwork. And it's a sad fact but these are the individuals that had actually received citizenship, but got it taken away because of a paperwork issue.

Haley Radke: So how many adoptees would you say are affected by this?

Kristopher Larsen: So one of the issues is that there's no accurate data out there. But we do have some data from the Korean government because they require adoption agencies to report back on the kids that have received citizenship. And so the Korean government has about 18,000 individuals that they cannot verify.

So it's possible that they don't have citizenship. But then when that's only one country, when we look at all the countries, it's estimated about 55,000 individuals did not receive citizenship through this.

Haley Radke: So you were talking about there's adoptees who could have had a mistake in their paperwork and so the citizenship wasn't like [00:06:00] officially rubber-stamped and got deported, and also adoptees who might have committed a crime of some kind and they were deported.

How many are we talking about here? Like how big is this issue?

Kristopher Larsen: So we have been able to verify about 50 deportees. A couple have already passed away because of certain situations where they're at. Here in the US, and that's the other thing that is not kept accurate. When somebody is deported, there is no checkbox that said, were you an adoptee? So it's extremely difficult.

Haley Radke: And so we're talking about people that were born in a different country, adopted to the US, and deported back to a country that they have no connection with except that they were born there.

Kristopher Larsen: Yes. And the thing is we also have to remember that these are individuals that were adopted by US citizen families. [00:07:00] They're also adoptees that came in on valid visas. So everything was there except for the automatic portion of citizenship.

And you have to understand that even though the individuals came here as children, they will lose any knowledge basically of where they were born, their culture, ethnicity, language, for instance. And the thing is a majority of the people that are adopted are adopted into, I guess you could say, Christian White families.

If you look at my case, I was adopted into a phenomenal family. It couldn't have gotten any better. All my family are blonde-haired, blue-eyed Norwegians. And so I kind of stuck out like a sore thumb everywhere we went. But I always tried to fit in, it was to a point to where I kind of denied that I was even Asian because I didn't wanna be Asian. [00:08:00]

I wanted to be the white kid. I wanted to be their child. And so even though I came to the US and didn't speak English as a child, I soon learned to forget my native language. And so that's all I speak now is English. I currently have an order for deportation because of an issue in the paperwork that was done by INS at the time. And, and they have verified that. But the fact that if I'm deported to Vietnam, I don't know the language, I don't know the culture, and I definitely don't look like a Vietnamese person. So it's very hard to assimilate.

Haley Radke: One case I know of is an adoptee that was deported and later died by suicide because of the immense impact this had on him. I mean, I just picture, you know, talking to listeners, just picture yourself getting dropped off in this country that you were born in. That's the only known connection. It's just horrendous. [00:09:00]

Kristopher Larsen: Yeah. That's an extremely difficult thing to deal with because I work with a lot of the deportees right now, and I don't think there has ever been a time where somebody hasn't talked about suicide, and it's really tough because, like I said, they're in a country that they don't get services from.

There is no service for somebody that's been deported, especially somebody that doesn't speak the language. It's difficult for them to even get work papers to be able to work. The citizens of those countries don't view them, the adoptee, as a citizen because they view them as being American.

Haley Radke: And are they technically a citizen of the other country or are they without a country?

Kristopher Larsen: That depends. South Korea has been giving citizenship back to adoptees but, for instance, we have a deportee in Panama where they don't, they are citizenship-less [00:10:00] because they're not considered a citizen of Panama.

Same with people from Ethiopia or Costa Rica. So it makes it very difficult.

Haley Radke: Shocking. Okay. Well we're gonna pause there and we're going to hear from an adoptee that this has impacted, and then we're gonna come back with Kristopher and he's gonna tell us a little bit more about how you can get involved and what you can do to help fix this massive issue.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Anissa Druesedow. Welcome, Anissa.

Anissa: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Haley Radke: My honor. I'm hopeful our internet connection is gonna keep up with us. Fingers crossed, toes crossed, note for the audio. We're doing that. But I would love it if you would start the way we always do. And would you share some of your story with us?

Anissa: Absolutely. I, as you stated, my name is Anissa. I was born in Jamaica. [00:11:00] And I was raised by my maternal grandmother until she passed away from uterine cancer. So after that, my biological mother moved my sister and myself here to Panama, central America, because my grandfather is a Jamaican, and he came over to work on the canal when the canal was being built way, way, way back then.

He was, I think, one of the only, or a few, a handful of black tugboat drivers that worked in the canal as a tugboat driver. So my biological mother was born here in Panama, and I was born in Jamaica when she was there for a period of time. According to her now, she said that my grandmother wanted to go back to Jamaica to die.

She didn't wanna have a hysterectomy 'cause she said she wouldn't be a woman. So that was the mentality back then. And so they went to [00:12:00] Jamaica. My sister and I were born there. And then after my grandmother passed, I'm not sure about the ages and things like that because I didn't know my birthday until after my adoption.

So all of that is really fuzzy. So I would say at five, six, my biological mother then brought us from Jamaica to Panama. She liked to party, liked to do drugs. At that point in time, the military base was here and, you know, it was party everywhere. So she fell in love with a soldier, an American soldier.

And she left and went to the United States and she left us with my grandfather. He had a lover and she had two male sons for my grandfather, and she had another one that wasn't my grandfather, but she left us then with this woman and these three men where we stayed and soon after that they started sexually [00:13:00] molesting my sister and I.

So then I told my grandfather, and, you know, back then it wasn't a popular thing to even speak or think about. So he beat me not believing that one of his sons and all three of them were sexually molesting us. So we were placed in an orphanage. And my biological mother, Beverly, we'll call her that from here on out, was in the US and, you know, she was living her life.

And we were in an orphanage. So we were there. I am not sure if it's for four or five years that we were in the orphanage, but it was long, but not long compared to, you know, a lifetime, I guess. And we had always had a lot of US military support bringing us food and things like that. And also, they would take us out for weekends and take us for holidays.

[00:14:00] A lot of times we got taken to families’ homes to spend, you know, whatever holiday it was with them. So I was in school once and I came home, and my sister was gone, and I was like, Where is my sister? And they said, oh, she went out with a family there. Before this, there was a black family that wanted to adopt us, but my family is black and they thought that we would do better with a white family.

So they didn't allow the adoption to go through. And so this was a white family and they thought that we would be better suited in a white family because of our complexion. And then, you know, they started doing the process. They found out she had a sister and they didn't wanna split up the sister.

So they were like, okay, we'll take the sister too. My father was a sergeant major in the Army. And we lived at a base called Fort Clayton. [00:15:00] It was the best thing that ever happened. You know, we had food, we didn't have lice or parasites. And, you know, when you're adopted at nine, 10, you remember it.

So you remember the bad and you can appreciate the good. So it was something that was very, very, very good. I had, you know, American siblings and when the Americans would come to the orphanage, they would always have nice cars. They always brought food. So you think they're rich. So I wanna go to America where everybody is rich.

And so that dream came true. We were picked up and taken home. We had water, hot water, air conditioner, which we never had before. So it was all like, just wonderful. I tried to fit in as much as I could with my sister that's a year older than me. I wanted to be as American as she was. And you know, we just started living as a normal family.

[00:16:00] A couple years after that, of course, we struggled with the education and the school and the language and everything like that.

Haley Radke: Was that in the States or was this still in Panama on the base.

Anissa: This was still in Panama on the military base.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Anissa: Yeah, because the military base had their schools and they had everything. It was just like a little American city stuck in a third-world country. So then my father got his military orders for us to go back to the US. And I didn't understand how that was all gonna happen, but people showed up.

You know, my mom, she is a very organized, very on top of everything kind of person. She packed everything up. We got boxes, you know, we packed everything up and they came and picked up the boxes, and we then went to a guest house to stay the rest of the time. Our household goods left first, and then we went to a guest house.

It was like staying in a hotel. It was wonderful. [00:17:00] And then we went to the airport and flew backwards all the way to the US. I remember we had a Barbie and I lost the Barbie’s shoe on the plane. And that was my big memory of going to the US. And so we got to the US, we landed in, I believe, South Carolina. I knew none of this before all of this happened.

I mean, I had to get all my records and everything for me to be able to try to get the help that I'm trying to get now. So we landed in South Carolina. We stayed in North Carolina at my parents' military friend's house for a while, and then we went to Indiana and my parents are originally from Indiana, Roanoke, and from Fort Worth.

So we were there, we got to meet our extended family and we had an uncle that had a dairy farm and I [00:18:00] remember the cows, the cats, and I just loved my Uncle Bobby and that life and the country. You know, just everything so open and free and you're not fearful of anything. You know, you can be a kid.

So that was my huge memory from that time. So then my dad got orders to be stationed at Seneca Army Depot, that's upstate New York in Romulus, New York. And we started going to school where I'm in the central school. Everybody was just living their life. I was playing gym one day in gym class and a classmate of mine kicked the ball.

So I jumped up and I caught the ball and when I came down, my leg gave out and I fell. So then after that I was limping 'cause it kind of felt weaker. And so I limped and, when I got home, I told my parents what had happened. And we just had a small clinic on the Seneca Army Depot. [00:19:00] So they took us there, they did x-rays and everything like that.

And they said, oh, it's just a pulled muscle, you know, it's just calcium deposits. And then they kept saying like little things like that. I did therapy for probably like three to four months, but because I'm adopted, we didn't know my family history, medical history. With 20/20 hindsight in 2020: my biological family is infested, cancer is like something that everybody dies from, and we didn't know it back then.

So, for the last X-ray that was done there was a military X-ray tech. I had a crush on him, that's how I remember these details. And he looked at my parents and he said something is very wrong here. And you know, this is 1984-85, somewhere around there. So we didn't have the technology [00:20:00] and he said, something is very wrong here.

Something else has to be going on because my calf, instead of getting better, it got bigger. So they sent us about 1-2 hours away to get a CAT scan. And once I got the CAT scan, they said it was cancer and they needed to do a biopsy. So when we drove back to the town where we lived, the Seneca Army Depot medical coordinator, or I don't know, you know, I don't know. Those parts were handled by my parents. It was cancer and it was pretty aggressive for the time it had grown. So that night I had to go to Geneva General Hospital to be admitted and for a biopsy to happen the following morning.

So we went in for the biopsy. They confirmed that it was cancer. Didn't know the type or anything like that. But my father being in the military, we were then flown to Washington DC to Walter Reed Military Hospital, Army Medical [00:21:00] Hospital, I forget the title, I think they've changed it now to Walter Reed in DC, for me to have more tests done to see how they could save my leg.

Months after that. I mean, my father and I literally lived in the hospital, in Walter Reed in DC, while my mother was back in Romulus, New York with the rest of the kids. Because they have four biological kids and adopted three. So she had six kids to deal with back in Romulus, and my dad and I were in Walter Reed. After doing all these tests and everything, they decided that my cancer was extremely aggressive, already too grown, all of the muscle mass and the arteries and everything were going through it. They gave it a name, synovial cell sarcoma.

And they decided that I either had to have extreme surgery, the leg would be very deformed, or an amputation. After they found out and gave the name, they [00:22:00] said that it's too aggressive of a cancer and wasn't something that they saw in teenagers very often, more like in retired Olympic participants of an older age and everything like that.

So they decided in order not to take any risks that they would amputate three inches above the knee. And so, a day or two before my father's birthday, we went through the amputation and it was horrible. But at the same time, I still felt like it was gonna be okay. I was in the States, I had parents, everybody was taking care of me and you know, that was gonna be okay.

So it wasn't as traumatic because I'm comparing it to worse trauma, I guess. And that's the way that I've always tried to survive things by comparing it to something worse. You know, I guess that's part of the don't be ungrateful brand that I had put into my head. [00:23:00] So I was grateful yet that I had parents still, I had food, I had medical care, and I was gonna be okay.

So the amputation happened, and then we had to go down to San Antonio, Texas, to Fort Sam Houston for my chemo and radiation treatment. And we were there for two years. I had my portacath placed, we started going through chemotherapy radiation. I would shut down because I was already taught not to talk about unpleasant things.

So I would have therapists come and talk to me, and I would not wanna tell them anything because, you know, the first time that I had a therapist talk to me, they went and told my parents everything I said. So I didn't trust that. So I developed different ways of dealing with things that aren't very good, I guess you could say.

[00:24:00] I planned how I was gonna kill myself because I didn't want to be this person. I didn't wanna be who I was. I didn't wanna hide all of the stuff that I was feeling and, you know, nobody to go to. But I really didn't know how to go about it. So, you know, I developed self-hate.

I look almost identical to my biological mother, who I hated for everything that we went through. The sexual molestation didn't only come from my uncle, it came from her boyfriends while we were with her. So, at this point in time, I lost my leg and I had so much going on. As a teenager, you want a boyfriend, you wanna go to the prom.

We weren't popular at Romulus when we first got there because it was majority whites. And so, you know, we got [00:25:00] called all of that stuff. And I didn't understand that because in the country that I came from, there is racism, but it's more like economical discrimination more than racism. So then I started meeting people of other color, not a lot of people.

I had one really good friend, her name was Tina, and she started to explain to me what was happening. So then I started becoming angry about that. And you know, the Blacks didn't accept me because of my skin tone. And the whites said, well, she's light-skinned, but not one of us. So it was hard for us to blend in.

After I lost my leg, though, I became somewhat of a celebrity because once I lost my leg and I was going through all of this hospitalization and everything, they did fundraisers and things like that. So when I got done with my chemo in San Antonio, we went back up to the town where we were originally from.

And when I went to [00:26:00] school, everybody kind of knew about me. You know, the kid that lost their leg and stuff like that. So I was more accepted then. And so then people started including me in things. And, you know, my father was in the volunteer fire department and things like that, so things kind of got a little better for us after that.

I overheard my mother telling my psychiatrist that came and saw me, but for her not to have to clean up my vomit and everything, they would like sedate me, but my sedation wasn't complete. Like I could hear things going on in the room and I could feel when they would inject. There was one medication that was red and it would burn really bad when it went into your body and it would give you a bad taste in your mouth.

And my psychiatrist was there and she started talking to my mother. And my mother told her that she felt like it was my fault that I got cancer. And because she thought that, she [00:27:00] felt like I had done it for attention. And then the psychiatrist was like, you know, that's not possible, right? But I shared that with you to give you the idea of where the rest of the story is gonna go.

So we went back to Romulus. I got a boyfriend. I was engaged to a boy that was half Vietnamese and half American. And his mother hated me. She wanted him to have a white woman and not me. So they did everything possible to try to make sure that didn't happen.

So after graduation, like a few days after, they moved away to Alaska. He sent me a ring from Alaska. I was engaged to him there. And then soon after that he broke up when he went to college and found somebody else. So then the pressure became you have to find somebody to help you afford your prosthetic leg because your insurance is running out.

[00:28:00] You're 18 and this and that. So I had that in my mind. I had like a ticker. So I got a job. I was a manager at McDonald's. That's not anything to write home about, but I met a gentleman, he was in the military and I thought that this was not my get outta jail free card, but you know, just like, hey, this guy's in the military. For me, I grew up very attracted to men in the military because of my father.

My father never abused me. He never touched me. He was a man that I really looked up to and, you know, when I was a kid and he put that uniform on, there was nothing that he couldn't do. So with that psychology, I met this guy, he was in the US Army, and I wanted to be a military wife.

My goal before then was to be in the military like my father, but after I lost my leg that, you know, was [00:29:00] not just put on the back burner, but totally out of the picture. So I said, okay, I'll be a military wife. I can do this, I can travel around the world and, you know, this and that. And so we married.

And that was my first husband, my daughter's biological father. And I thought that this was it. We started having domestic violence issues. I was a raging lunatic. I'm not gonna blame him a hundred percent because I had all of these issues, rejection, trauma, and everything inside of me. So the littlest thing that he would do, he would think it was funny to come at me.

And my automatic mechanism was to shiver. So he would do things like that and, you know, I would like psychologically lose it. And so we were very physically abusive to one another. [00:30:00] I told my mom, you know, I can't do this. I'm about to have a baby. And she told me, Anissa, nobody's gonna want you. You have one leg and you're gonna have a kid. Who's gonna take care of you?

So I moved to Puerto Rico with him. He hit me in Puerto Rico again. I had some friends in upstate New York that I went to school with. They bought a plane ticket for me to come back, and then he called and he cried. And the thing with men crying, it has like a soft spot for me because I only saw my dad cry one time.

And that was when I was told that I was having my leg amputated. So, to me, when I see a man cry, I kind of believe him. So he called me and he was crying. He wanted to be a family. I told him, okay, come back. We'll work things out. He came back. Things were good for a while, you know. Now, all these years after, I understand about the honeymoon period and all of that stuff.

So we had a long honeymoon period [00:31:00] because it was right before I gave birth. I gave birth in October and I had a baby girl. She's my life, she's my life. She's my lifeline. You know, after I had her, I went to my six-month appointment. He had already cheated on me. I told him, well, my friends wanted me to go out with them and I said, watch Vanessa. I wanna go out with my friends.

So we went down to the club and, you know, when you have to get up at six in the morning, it's not the same as before when you would get up at nine or whatever time you wanted. Then you can hang out all night. And I was exhausted. So I had like maybe a couple hours out and I fell asleep literally on the bar.

And my friends were like, oh, we gotta take you home. So I went home and when I got home, I caught him. I either caught him in the process of or caught him in the planning stage of what [00:32:00] he was doing. I'm not sure what it was. But I came to the house and he swore that I wasn't at the bar. He swore that I had been at some man's house.

He swore that I was up to no good. And I was like, look, you know, I can't, I don't wanna argue about this. I'm very exhausted. And I wanted to go check on my daughter and I wanted to go to sleep 'cause I was exhausted. And so I was going up the steps and I have to go up them one by one 'cause I have one leg.

And he shoved by me and beat me to the top of the steps. And he wouldn't let me go by unless I told him where I was. And I told him I was at the bar with the girls and I said, I'm just tired. I fell asleep on the bar and I just wanna come home. I wanna look at Vanessa, I wanna take my shower and I wanna go lay down.

And he said, no, you're not gonna have me look like an idiot. And so by this time I am trying to push my [00:33:00] way with my body weight. And he is, what? 6 foot, 6’ 1” maybe. I'm 5’9”, 5’10”. So, you know, it's not that much of a difference. And I'm thinking I can push by him. I'm thinking when I get up there, I can get by him.

The last thing I remember was feeling my body like lose weight. And he pushed me down the flight of steps. I woke up in the emergency room with my daughter in a carrier next to me. And that's when I said, once I gained my thoughts and everything, this is it. So I went ahead. I got an order of restraint.

I got our things out of the house. We were in a shelter for a week or two until we found our own place. We found a studio apartment for my daughter and I to live in, and I started my role as a single mother. So [00:34:00] I started working, babysitting kids at night when their parents were working the graveyard shift and things like that.

Just things to be able to make ends meet. And it just never seemed to make ends meet. But, you know, I was doing everything that I could think of. My job was always to the point where I made just enough not to get any help from the government, but not enough to cover everything. And I started to see patterns of people that were, you know, on welfare or living in government housing.

And I didn't want that for Vanessa. And my whole goal was to always protect her, for her not to go hungry, for her not to be sexually abused, for her not to have any kind of, I guess, trauma or anything like that, as much as I could help it. So there began that rat race, you know, trying to cover this, trying to cover that.

I went to school to be a dental assistant and [00:35:00] I really enjoyed that, but I realized that I could not survive on that. So then I decided I was gonna go to be a hygienist because I became good friends with a hygienist. And then I couldn't stop working and go to school with a child, you know? And so I decided that I couldn't do it just yet.

Let's wait until she gets into school and is a little more independent. I didn't have that support system, like the ability to move home or anything like that, because I was always told I made my bed. I have to lay in it by leaving my husband. So I left him and I kept, you know, doing whatever I could. Then she started Head Start. I don't know if you know what Head Start is?

Haley Radke: It's like a preschool program, right?

Anissa: Yeah. Right. So then she started doing that, [00:36:00] and so I started picking up classes and doing things here and there, trying to get myself together. And then she started going to school where it was more full-time. I started looking at my options.

I decided that I didn't wanna be helping a doctor. I got stuck with a dirty needle twice. This was right before AIDS started coming out. So it was kind of scary that I would have that risk of a dentist handing me the needle back and getting stuck with a needle that was really, really dirty.

So, I didn't wanna do that. So I then decided that I wanted to go back to school in the medical field. I went to Phoenix, Arizona. I started going to school there. I went to PIMA Medical Institute and I decided I'm gonna be a physician's assistant. And I didn't like Arizona. I want trees, I want grass, I want seasons.

[00:37:00] There are people that either love Arizona or hate it because the yards are rocks and sand and

Haley Radke: The one thing I know about Arizona is that sometimes in the summer, like you can't get cold water out of your water tap because the pipes are hot. That's what I know about Arizona.

Anissa: That is correct. I met a lot of good people in Arizona that I'm still friends with, too, to this day. I learned a lot, but if you're a person that likes the outdoors, Arizona is probably not it unless you like heat. Now I don't, I don't like heat. I am an upstate New York girl. I love the snow. I love the cold.

You know, I learned to ski, all of that stuff. And being there with rocks and peppercorn trees is not my idea of a good time. I was never able to afford to go out to Flagstaff [00:38:00] and ski. I heard that it was nice skiing up there, but I never was able to do that.

So I went there. My biological mother was living in Glendale. I lived in Chandler. My biological sister, she had found her and gave her my information. I started trying to develop a relationship with her, but that never could be. Ever. I mean, I have tried 13 times to not have a mother/daughter relationship. A lot of adoptees in reunion– that ship kind of has sailed and we're just looking for basically a friendship and if it develops to more than that, wonderful.

But if not, we're happy with being friends. So I just wanted to be friends with her and she just can't forgive herself. And I kind of understand her mentality today because I beat myself up a lot for what has happened with, you know, me and my daughter. But at the same time, I can't take it out on her. And, you know, why take it out on myself? [00:39:00] I already take out enough things on myself. So I tried to develop a relationship with her. It didn't work.

I did my internship at a clinic there in Tempe. I then went back to New York. And I tried to find work in the medical field. And a lot of work in the medical field wasn't paying yet what I was able to make soldering and assembling at a factory.

And that was one of the jobs that I had before I started going to school. And I loved to do things with my hands, solder, you know, do things like that. So I was making more in a factory than I was in the medical field, and I was fine with that. Although frowned upon by my parents, it was something that paid the bills and it was something that I enjoyed.

And I'm still thinking that I'm gonna go up to Syracuse to get into their physician's assistance program to be a physician's assistant because I love the medical field. So I couldn't [00:40:00] do that because financially that wasn't possible and I already had student loans, so I am repaying student loans.

I'm trying to find out how I am going to be a physician's assistant. You know, how I'm gonna work that out. I got a second job at another factory and I left the one that I was at to do wire harnesses at another one. By this time, Vanessa is already ten, eleven-ish, somewhere around there. We'd had many dollar store Christmases, and we've had Christmases where, you know, there was nothing.

So I decided that this year I'm gonna get a second job just for the holiday season. So I went and I got a job at a retail store. I'm working at this retail store just for Christmas 2003. Because my car wasn't working. The money I was making wasn't good enough to cover everything. And you know, when you live up north, I don't know if [00:41:00] you know or not, but the electric, the heating bill is high and you kind of try to keep up the payments on it for it not to get turned off, but then you still have a balance at the end of the season.

So I'm like trying to catch up on all of these things and provide a good Christmas for my daughter. A friend of mine came into the store and she said, hey, I have some things that I purchased. I purchased it on this credit card. Can you take it back? I lost the receipt. And since it was a holiday gig and, you know, you're not really invested in that position or anything like that. So I don't care, bring it in. So then she did it not once, maybe two or three times.

But when you say yes the first time, it's hard to say no after that. So I did it. My job was over. I went home, it's 2004. Early part of 2004, the sheriffs came knocking on my door. They [00:42:00] said, we wanna speak to Anissa Druesedow. I said, I am Anissa Druesedow. And they said, did you work at this store? And I said, yes. And they said, from this time to that time? And I said, yes. And they said, do you know this person? And I said, yes.

And they said, did you do this? Did you do that? And I said, well, I did this. I didn't do that. Whenever you're dealing with like the criminal system, it seems like they try to stick in as much as you can to get you to plead guilty to as much as you can. And I'm like, no, I didn't do that. I didn't do that.

After a while, I looked on my schedule and I saw that I wasn't working on some of these days. And in the cash register there's two receipts, one that stays with the store and the other one that you would give to the customer. Sometimes we would run out of them and use a thinner one that didn't have numbers on them.

So I was like, I can't say which ones I did and [00:43:00] which ones I didn't, because these numbers are not enough for the number on the receipt. And there were just like a lot of things we went back and forth on. So then the sheriff called me and said, can you come down? We need to talk to you.

I said, okay. I called my neighbor 'cause I think that we're still going through this, you know, trying to cipher things out. And I think that after all of this is said and done, that it's gonna be fine. So I called my neighbor and I said, hey, can you keep an eye on Vanessa for me? She's at home. I have to go down and talk to the sheriff.

They said, okay. So I went down to talk to the sheriffs and they arrested me. Of course, I didn't go down with the lawyer. I never consulted a lawyer because I didn't have money to pay for a lawyer and I didn't have that kind of mentality that I needed a lawyer. So they arrested me for a whole bunch of charges.

I can't even go into all of them. I don't remember them. And they locked me up and they didn't give me bail because they said that I was [00:44:00] a threat to run away or escape threat or something like that. And I was like, where am I gonna run to? This is where I've lived my whole life. Well, you're from Jamaica.

I said, yeah, I was born there, but I was adopted to the US, and then once a judge heard the story and everything, he gave me bail. My full-time job at that time bailed me out. And I got out. My sister had my daughter, I got my daughter. I started going back to work and, you know, trying to find out, figure out what I'm gonna do.

I have a public defendant. The public defendant comes to me and says, they're offering you four to 12. And I'm like, four to 12? And I didn't know this at the time, but I guess that's their little tactic. Their little scare tactic. They work with the DA and everything like that. And he said, yeah, four to 12.

I said, I can't accept four to 12. My co-defendant has six months of weekends, and [00:45:00] I'm gonna accept a four to 12? No. So then he goes, well, let me go back and see what they say. So then he came back and he said, they'll give you one to three. I said, one to three years in prison. Why can't I get weekends, six months of weekends?

Because then I could have my sister watch my daughter while I, you know, paid the price for this horrible thing that I did, right? So he was like, well, this is a better deal than six months in jail, six months of weekends in jail. And I said, how so? He said, well, your full-time job bailed you out, so let's talk to them and see if they'll give you a letter.

If they give you a letter, you'll be out on work release in a month and a half. And I was like, really? He goes, yeah, so you can just go away for a month and a half, read some books, relax, and then come home. And I'm like, okay. I went to my job and they said, yeah, we will give you a letter for you to come back. That's not a problem.

So they gave me the letter, [00:46:00] I gave the letter to the lawyer. I went in, I pled guilty to grand larceny, falsifying business records to the tune of less than $4,000, 3,000 and something. Of course, in my mind, I'm the biggest criminal that ever walked the face of this earth. It wasn't until I got processed that I realized that my sentence was like ridiculous for the crime.

Everybody that I was locked up with had like hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they had the same sentence that I did. But again, I didn't know. I couldn't afford a lawyer and I didn't know any better. So I went and pled guilty.

Nobody ever said to me, Hey Anissa, if you plead guilty to this, you face a risk of being deported. And I was fine with it. I was gonna go up for a month and a half and I'll be home, you know, pick up my life and try to lead it as best as I could after that. So I went up [00:47:00] to Bedford Hills, a maximum security prison for women in New York City.

They had no handicap facility. I had to hop on wet tiles. I fell. They wanted me to squat down and, you know, all of these things. And I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to do that. I broke the law. I'm willing to pay my price, but I didn't have anything to hold onto. I had not even a grab bar or anything.

So I'm like, this really stinks. I hope this gets better soon. But I went into my mind that had already been in an institution. So I just locked down, became, you know, not combative at all. Whatever they said I did, even if I fell on the shower floor that was filthy and I wanted to cry afterwards. But I just did what I needed to do.

So now they've processed me and they told me that I'm gonna go to Albion, another women's prison, but this one is [00:48:00] closer to where I live. So my whole goal was to get closer to home, to maybe see my family, maybe see my kid, you know, whatever. So I'm sitting there waiting for our pack out day.

They say Ripley, that was my name, that's my married name, my first husband. They said, Ripley, you have visitors. And I'm like, in New York City? I don't know anybody in New York City. And so I got escorted down to the visiting area and there were three gentlemen there, all of them big, you know, cop-looking like, but they didn't have uniforms on. They had like khaki pants or something like that if I remember correctly.

And they introduced themselves and said that they were from ICE. And I was like, in my mind, the only ICE I knew about was the one in the freezer. I had no idea. And then they explained to me, I was like, ICE what? And they were like, immigration, you know, they [00:49:00] named off the whole big name.

And I was like, okay. So I'm like, what do these guys want? So they started asking me, what border did you come in? And I was like, I don't know. And they, how did you get here? I said, my parents brought me here. What country are you from? I said, well, I'm from Panama. I was born in Jamaica, but I was adopted in Panama.

And oh, your parents are adopted? I said, yeah, my parents are adopted. My father was in the military. We came in on military orders and yeah, why? And they were like, what language do you speak? And I was like, English and a little bit of Spanish. You know when you don't use it, you lose it. And I lived upstate New York where my Spanish was very limited.

I used to help Puerto Ricans and Dominicans with their welfare, filling out their welfare papers for them. But I didn't speak it fluently by any stretch of the imagination. And they're like, yeah, you don't sound Spanish. You don't sound Jamaican either. And I was like, yeah, because, I'm sorry, I don't know what to [00:50:00] tell you. I'm adopted.

And one of the rules at my house was when we were adopted, we were not able to speak Spanish. My sister and I could not speak anything but English because if we wanted to be Americans, we had to learn the language. So they were like, oh, so you're adopted and okay, we'll check into it and we'll get back to you.

And I was like, I thought, okay, I missed a bullet. So I went back to my cell, it came time for us to be taken from New York City to Albion. While I was at Albion, they called my name for mail and I got an order of deportation, and I was like, an order of deportation? As soon as we were let go, I went to the phone and I called my parents, and I told my mom. I said, I have an order of deportation. What is this about?

And she was like, I don't know. If you hadn't gotten in trouble, you wouldn't be in this [00:51:00] position. And I'm like, wow, okay. I'm like, am I going to be deported? What is happening here? I mean, I didn't choose to come here, I didn't not do paperwork. As far as I'm concerned, there was apple pie and then me. I mean, I am as American as I could get in my head, right?

And I was like, what are you talking about? And then she's like, I don't know, I have to call and I have to talk to a lawyer. And I'm like, okay, so they're gonna talk to a lawyer and this is all gonna be ironed out. So then I was able to call once a week to my parents because of the cost and everything.

So the following week I called and I was like, did you talk to a lawyer? She says, yes, I talked to a lawyer and the lawyer said that we could get in trouble for human trafficking for doing this. And then she kept talking about how had I not broken the law, [00:52:00] how had I not done this and how had I not, you know, always shifting the blame, and okay, I am willing to take the blame for my part in it, but you know, I cannot be deported.

Where am I gonna be deported? Jamaica? I left there when I was what age? In Panama I have nothing. Where are you deporting me to? So the following week I called my parents and they wouldn't answer the phone. I kept trying to call every day when I was able to, when the phones were free, I'd go and call. They wouldn't answer the phone.

And I was like, what's happening? So my mother started to do things that she used to do to my other sister. My daughter would write me a letter saying that she had fallen asleep and that my mother had grabbed her by her hair to wake her up, to pull her off the couch. And those are things that she would do [00:53:00] to my sister. So I didn't think that they were lies.

So then I got in touch with my biological sister that lived in Florida, and I asked her to please get Vanessa, because I didn't want Vanessa to go through that treatment that I had already seen. My sister was not my mom's favorite by any stretch of the imagination. And she ended up running away after there was an incident where she was made to come downstairs and just like a teenager, she dropped her books on the table and that pushed my mom over the edge.

My mom jumped on her and started ripping handfuls of hair out of her head. And my other sister jumped on my mom and grabbed her and held her down, and my sister ran out of the house and never came back again. And you know, she cut all ties to them and everything like that. And she wasn't really [00:54:00] close to anybody in the family, but she stepped up to the plate and helped me with my daughter in the meantime.

So my daughter had to go from New York to Miami, and I had already done the year for New York State. New York State didn't want me in their custody anymore and I had an immigration hold. I couldn't do anything. So then they took me back up to Bedford Hill, and then at Bedford Hill, they said, here is your Greyhound ticket.

ICE has until this time to come pick you up. And if they don't come pick you up, we take you to the Greyhound bus station and you have to be in Rochester checking in with your parole officer tomorrow. At this time you have to go and do this for work release. And you know, they give you the whole rundown like you're getting sent home.

So I'm sitting in a cell sweating, hoping that ICE doesn't come and show up. And about five minutes before the time that they were supposed to let me go, they said, Ripley, ICE is here for [00:55:00] you, get dressed. So I got dressed and ICE took me over to New Jersey, to Hudson County jail. At first, they had me in general population, but because of my leg and everything, I couldn't stay in those small cells.

So then they took me down to the infirmary. In the infirmary, I was locked in 23 hours a day. I was out one hour. And by this time I had two 401ks and I cashed out one of them and hired a lawyer. Her name is Monica Reed. And Monica Reed kept assuring me, you're not gonna get deported. This is illegal what they're doing to you. We're gonna get you out. You're gonna be fine. You know?

And I believed her wholeheartedly because how can you deport an adopted person? You know? You pull somebody outta their culture, erase all of their culture, reprogram them with the culture, take them in when they're kids and they're nice and cute, but then when they're [00:56:00] adults and they make mistakes or whatever, then you send them back to the orphanage?

You know, that was always a fear as a child, that I better behave and I better be good and I better be grateful, or else I might get sent back to the orphanage. And I didn't wanna do that. And here I was an adult facing that possibility. And it was something that I could not wrap my head around in no shape or form.

So they have me in the basement of Hudson County jail. Sewage backs up. I have to be taken out and put into the box, where like really bad inmates go, because they don't have anywhere else to put me. And then I get put back into the infirmary. And then one day I went to court and they told me my lawyer passed away from an asthma attack.

And I'm like, my lawyer passed away from an asthma attack? Excuse me? Come again? So the judge gave me three weeks [00:57:00] to decide what I was gonna do, if I was going to hire another attorney or if I was going to sign and leave. And I had one more 401k. And I'm like, I gotta cash this 401k and I gotta get a lawyer.

So when you get done with immigration court, they put you in a holding cell. So that was my plan in the holding cell. I gotta cash this 401k and I have to get another lawyer 'cause I cannot be sent back to where my uncles might be. They might kill me or whatever. I can't go to Jamaica where I don't know anything except for what you and I see on postcards or the ads on the TV for you to go to the island.

I don't know anything. And when I used to tell people that I was born in Jamaica, they were like, do you smoke weed? I'm like, no. And you don't talk like a Jamaican, you're not a Jamaican. So this is my mind that nobody's gonna ever see me as a Jamaican. [00:58:00] So I was like, yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.

On my way back, I had already been transported back and forth enough to where the guards didn't feel threatened by me. They stopped putting shackles on me because I have one leg. Where am I gonna run? I'm not running anywhere. So then, you know, they got cool with me and they would like buy me sandwiches from McDonald's, Burger King, whatever.

So on my way home, this one ICE officer, he was like, so Rip, what you gonna do? And I'm like, well, I gotta get back to the cell. I gotta get back on the phone. I gotta find somebody that's gonna help me get my 401k and I've gotta hire a lawyer. And he is like, Ripley, wait, you don't get mail? Nobody comes to visit you? You are not the first adoptee that's been through here, and you're not gonna be the last adoptee.

He goes, can I give you my two cents? And I said, sure. He said, it will be best for you to go get your 401k while you're out and fight [00:59:00] this from the outside instead of wasting your money on another lawyer. Because who's gonna help you if you get deported and you have no money? I was like, I don't know.

I have to think about it because by this time my parents weren't having anything to do with me. My sister and I have a bad relationship because, you know, she left and I stayed at the house, and then I get the brunt of staying and siding with the people that abused her. And to this day, we don't have a relationship, just to give you an idea.

And so, my other sisters? Letters? Nothing. So I went back to my cell and I was thinking about it and I said, it's true, who is going to help me if I'm deported? I don't get care packages; I don't get anything. So, you know, I [01:00:00] had already come to terms with me being on my own. So I called and I said, I wanna be deported.

So a couple weeks went by, at three o'clock in the morning the metal door slams open, I'm half asleep. They have flashlights on them. They have flashlights mounted to them, and they come in and they throw you a bag with some clothes in it, and they say, get dressed. You're gonna be deported to a lifetime vacation.

And I'm like, I'm leaving? Can I make a phone call? They're like, no. You can't make a phone call. Nobody can know that you're leaving. Okay? So I got dressed. They took us to JFK and we were all in this van. I think I was the only woman. The rest of them were men. And when our times came up, they would take us up and put us on the plane. [01:01:00]

And my time came up, they took me to the, to the gate,

and I walked onto the plane.

That was the

biggest psychological screw that I've ever had in my life. I'm leaving the country that I call home. I'm going to a country I don't know. And I can't believe that what I have done would, I would deserve such a thing. And that a whole country that I love and that a whole country that I thought was mine was kicking me out.

You know, a whole country didn't want me there. And so I got on a plane and they flew me into Kingston. I was supposed to go to Montego Bay because that's where I was born. But either way, had I landed in either one, I was just as [01:02:00] lost. I could have landed in China and it would've had the same effect. So I landed in Kingston, They took me off the plane.

I was walking with the people. I thought I was normal by now, and they were like, no, come this way. So I got taken into an office and then questioned for hours. You know, you're Jamaican, you're this person because I only had a handwritten birth certificate. That's the only thing that I had, a handwritten birth certificate.

And I'm like, yeah, that's me. And I had to explain to them the whole story about, you know, how I was born here, taken to Panama, adopted by the US. I committed a crime; I was deported here. And they're like, you don't speak Patois? I said, no, I don't. He goes, where are you gonna stay? I said, I have no idea. You guys accepted me here. [01:03:00]

You guys never knew anything about this? I mean, did you see my picture that I'm a light complexioned person? Did you see? You're not black? No, I'm not black. You know, all of these questions. I finally said, so why did you bend over to the US government and take me if you didn't think that I was Jamaican?

So when I started getting aggressive and when I started using words that you reserve for certain times, they were like, okay, go. So they let me out. It was night. They let me out and I wanted to go back into the room. There was a row of taxi drivers and they were all screaming about what they were gonna do to me, how they were gonna do it to me, the amount of time that they were gonna do it to me.

And they started calling me “browning,” which now I know that's what they call people of my complexion. And I was like totally [01:04:00] freaked out that these grown men that were just a sidewalk space away from me were doing all of this. My prosthetic leg was broken and there was one older gentleman that was just sitting on the trunk of his car and since he wasn't screaming anything at me, I felt like I could approach him.

And I said, can I please borrow your phone to call so that somebody can come pick me up, or so that people know where I'm at? He says, how much money do you have? I said, I have no money. I said, I have no money. I just have what I'm wearing. That's all I have. And he said, you're deported? And I said, yeah. He said, why they deport to Jamaica?

I said, I'm from Jamaica, and here goes the whole story again. Well, I was born blah, blah, blah. And so I finally convinced him that it'll only be one minute. So I called a woman back in the US. I told her I was [01:05:00] in Jamaica, but I was in Kingston. I had nothing. And she was like, can you go to a nearby government facility?

Because you know, people think as they do in the US where you can go to places and get help. And I'm like, I can't see anything but there's darkness and some lights in the parking lot. I don't know where to go. And she was like, sit still. Stay at the airport. Don't leave the airport. They called some people from Montego Bay that were in the church and they came and they picked me up and took me to Montego Bay.

My biological mother by this time has found one of her sisters that lives on the island and she was supposed to come pick me up. I was with these people from church for four days. She did not wanna come pick me up because her husband didn't want a white woman in her house, in his house.

But I didn't have any place else to go. I had that trauma of being locked up. So I would stay in the room, locked in the room. And finally they talked me into [01:06:00] coming out more and coming out more. And they told us about that when we were in prison, but I didn't really believe it. I was like, if I have the choice to leave, you know, an open door, I am walking out of it.

But all of that became reality. And I was really a mess for those four days. And I was a worse mess when my aunt told me that this man didn't want me in his house 'cause I still hadn't gotten my money from my 401k to even rent a room. It was, I mean, I, I can't even put it into words.

So she said, this is what we have to do. He goes to bed, he's a mechanic. He works until this time; he goes to bed at this time. You have to stay in the park here, and then we can go up to the house and then you can go in. You have to wait till he leaves. He leaves at this time, and then you can leave when you can come down.

So I got my 401k. She asked me to borrow some money [01:07:00] because in her mind I'm a rich American, not a handicapped grown woman, a niece of hers that was adopted. There's no kind of connection there. I mean, you know, you see your aunt, she gives you a hug. There's nothing, it's like I'm another woman on the streets.

And I, and growing up, seeing that with my family, I always wanted that warmth or that, you know, something that made you feel that you can hang on to, you know, as an adoptee that was adopted, you know, at a certain age, it's hard to build those kinds of relationships, but you hold onto what little you can get. There was nothing there.

So she asked me to borrow some money. She never paid me back. I rented a room. Vanessa came to Jamaica. I had to pretend like everything was gonna be okay. I couldn't freak out, you know, I couldn't. I couldn't show what was happening inside me on the outside because now I had to be a strong mom for Vanessa again.

So we were there and we were running outta money fast because my [01:08:00] rice cooking skills were not, I couldn't cook rice. It's an embarrassment to say, but we're a potato, pasta kind of people. We don't, I don't know how to cook Jamaican food. I like the flavor. Sometimes it's a little too much.

Sometimes I want my potatoes and gravy with my roast, my pork chop. So I would go to the store and I would buy mac and cheese that would cost 8 dollars. But I didn't know how else to survive. Sometimes I would buy food from the woman that cooked in the front, but I was kind of sketchy because of my medical background. I could see maybe health issues with their cooking set-up, you know? So I was like scared. I would go eat at McDonald's or KFC, but that was extremely expensive and I was [01:09:00] running outta money fast. So I knew I had papers for Panama. And I quickly saw that I couldn't be a nurse. I wasn't gonna be a teacher, and I wasn't gonna be a tour guide. Back in that time those were the careers of choice for a lot of women and I didn't have any papers or anything that I completed, anything.

I had a handwritten birth certificate and they gave me hell for that when I went and tried to get my IDs. They actually didn't really wanna give me a passport, so I was like, let me go to Panama. Plug in Panama City. Panama. I saw that the jobs there were a lot of call center jobs for the US so it was English speaking and they were paying, you know, like two dollars and something, which I couldn't get my head to understand. I was like, this must be something messed up in the ad.

I said, well, Vanessa, we are gonna go to Panama. She's [01:10:00] like, Panama? I dunno how to speak Spanish. I was like, it's okay, we'll learn. So I used my last $2,000 to buy a ticket and to pay to get to Kingston to fly out to come to Panama City. By this time my biological mother had voluntarily deported from the US and she was here in Panama.

And I thought, okay, maybe we can have a relationship. We can help each other. I just wanna, you know, be with her for a while, get myself on my feet and then get away from her because I know she's not a good person for me. So while I was in Jamaica, I was there for nine months, I met a gentleman. I asked him out to pizza.

He said he liked me. I said, well, don't get too attached 'cause I'm not gonna be staying here. I'm gonna be leaving and going to Panama. And he goes, can I go with you? And I said, sure, you can go with me. He goes, but I don't speak Spanish. I say, well, all three of us can learn. So [01:11:00] he asked me to marry him. November of 2006, I said yes.

In December of 2006, Vanessa and I flew to Panama. My biological mother met us at the airport. In February of 2007 he came from Jamaica to Panama and we got married in February of 2007 here in Panama. And while we were living with my mother, my biological mother, she became very jealous of my daughter.

I couldn't show my daughter a lot of attention. She would slam doors. She would tell Vanessa to shut up. She would tell me that she doesn't wanna hear her voice. It makes her sick. And I finally said to her, so, what do you want me to do? You want me to just leave her with somebody or kick her out? Because, I said, she's my daughter. I would give my life for her.

So when I started talking to her like that and shutting her down with her “I hate Vanessa” rhetoric. She told me to get out [01:12:00] again. I didn't know where I was gonna go, but I know that before I caused my daughter more pain, I had to get away from her.

I started working as an interpreter at a call center making $3.47 an hour. Don't ask me how I was interpreting, Haley. I do not know. But you know, they say fake it till you make it. That's exactly what I was doing. I could understand the English speaker perfectly, but the Spanish speaker I could not understand for the life of me, and the speed that they spoke it! It was like, really?

But I found a call center that allowed me to interpret for stateside businesses. They had different levels of interpreting, so I was doing getting your electric turned on, turned off, transferring the services, renting cars, which I did not know how to say, none of those words, but I was not gonna let go of that because the rest of the call [01:13:00] centers were paying $1.75, $2.15 and I couldn't go down. My husband at that time didn't have a work permit. He had no papers.

I didn't know what was gonna happen. I mean, it was like just kicking and moving my arms to keep afloat. I didn't know what was gonna happen. Then this woman tells me I have to get out. So back in the day, you buy a newspaper. And you go and you open the newspaper to the classified ads and you find a place you wanna live that you can afford, you go look at it.

If it's good, you, you take it. If it's not, you keep looking. That's what I was doing here in Panama. I found a place that was for rent in a town called Veracruz for the price of $250, which I thought, $250 is a good price. I am not thinking my wage level. I am thinking US wage level.

So I didn't have any paperwork for my daughter's school. I had to put her in private school. [01:14:00] Private school is you have to pay for everything, books, lunches, uniforms, socks, even gym clothes, everything. It was $174 a month. And it got to be too much. We spoke to the landlord. The landlord said, yeah, he would help us out, knock it down to $150 to try to get us some financial assistance.

So we were living there. For the first few months that we were there, our sewage would run in the ditch in front of us. We had boils. Vanessa and I were covered in boils. It was a nightmare, but I had to smile the whole time and make sure Vanessa knew that it was okay and that we were gonna make it. We found another house that was much better, in a better place.

And the person that had the house became friends with my husband and he was going back to the States. So he let us rent it for the same price, [01:15:00] although it was bigger. And each one of us had our own rooms instead of just being one room with all of us in there. And he sold us a car for $1,500. We paid it off little by little because walking in a prosthetic leg in a tropical country is not fun at all.

You're sitting in a plastic bucket and it's minimum 90°, 91° outside. And I had blisters, bleeding blisters. I had rub marks. My prosthetic leg, in Jamaica I had to go and have it welded by car mechanics because there's no orthopedic legs or anything in Jamaica. Nothing. Everybody there walks around with crutches.

And I was like, why are you guys with crutches? Don't you like your hands? Because when you use crutches, you lose your hands. And there were people there very talented where they were walking just with one crutch and no prosthetic leg, and they were walking smoothly. They didn't even have a limb. I have a limb and I admired them a lot, but there's [01:16:00] no orthopedic clinics, prosthetic leg, nothing.

So when I was in Panama, my leg was worse. And we found some people that, you know, felt probably pity for us, for the three of us. They got us a leg; they bought the leg for me and everything like that. And I had a good leg for a while. And we were just struggling. My husband didn't have the ability to get a job or anything like that.

He didn't speak Spanish. And I really, I guess, downplayed the need to speak Spanish when living in a Spanish country. And, you know, he had to do like little odds and ends jobs where he'd make like $10 or $5, because here they don't wanna pay you. They think, okay, even expats that live here, when I say expats, people from other countries, when they come here, they don't come here and wanna pay.

They wanna pay, you know, less because they're living on a limited budget [01:17:00] and things like that. So he would do these little jobs and people would give him, you know, little change and stuff like that, which was a big help. So Vanessa was going to school, I was working, and one day I said to Vanessa, Vanessa, bring me your notebook so I can see what's going on.

Because it was just, you know, a struggle with her. She was grabbed underneath her uniform skirt, but we were prepared for that 'cause that happened to us when we were kids. So she had on shorts underneath it. And you know, I told her, hit 'em with your backpack. Do whatever you can. They're gonna do this, they're gonna do that.

You know, everything in my experience as a child, and Vanessa was suffering with so much depression she would vomit and have diarrhea before going to school. It was just so much for her. There are no words for everything that she was going through. And I had to pay a tutor. She wanted to charge me $10 an hour. I couldn't afford to pay $10 an hour.

So [01:18:00] I said, okay, we're just gonna do one hour twice a week for her to help you. So this woman wasn't making enough money off of this rich American because everybody saw me as a rich American. And she would not help Vanessa learn. She would do the homework for her.

My daughter has a doctor's handwriting and when I looked at this notebook, I was like, Vanessa, your handwriting is so beautiful. It's in cursive. I can't even do this. Wow. And she's like, mom, I didn't do that. My teacher did it. I was like, what? So I'm paying $174 plus her transportation, plus her uniform and all of this, and you're not learning anything.

And so I spoke it over with a friend of ours here that's an American, that's married to a Panamanian, and I spoke it over with him and he goes, Vanessa's had just turned 17. And he said, have you thought about sending her back to the US for her to get her [01:19:00] GED? Of course I haven't. He said, you should think about it.

Send her back to the US. We can see if we can find somebody she could stay with and

she can get her GED and she can, you know, go on to college or whatever, you know. And at first, the only word that came to my mind was, hell no, I'm not gonna send my only child, the only person I share DNA with. The only thing that slightly resembles me, because throughout all of this, she looks more like, you know, we call him her sperm donor than me, but I can see certain things in her.

And she definitely had my bad attitude. I was like, I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna send her back. So that night I laid in bed and was talking to my husband about it, and he's like, well, I know it's hard for you to think that way, but what is [01:20:00] she gonna achieve here? When she gets outta school, what is she gonna do?

We can't afford for her to go home. She won't be able to pass a test to go in to college. What is she gonna do? End up working at one of these call centers for $200 every two weeks. So then I had to separate the selfish me from what was best for her.

Haley Radke: I'm so sorry.

Anissa: So we pulled all of our money together. My husband sold a couple tools. I think he impounded them. I don't know. He did something with his tools and bought some money. We got her a laptop and we put her on a plane to Salt Lake City, Utah. She lived in a friend's parents' basement.

She went and studied for her GED, passed it. She applied [01:21:00] for a scholarship to a business school. She got accepted into the business school, full scholarship. We just had to pay for her housing and things. And my husband and I went without a lot to make sure that we paid for her housing and her food. And my daughter is so awesome.

She got a job in charge of the dorm. So they gave her free room and we only sent her money because she needed, you know, money to buy her toiletries and things like that. And she finished school and then I said to her, this is very hard for us. I'm giving you two months for you to [01:22:00] get a second job or something because we can't afford to send you this kind of money and you know it.

So she goes, yeah, mom, I know I'm gonna see what I can do. Don't worry. Three weeks after I told her that, she called me and said, you don't have to send me any more money. I got another job.

She had to have her tonsils removed and I wasn't able to be there for her to hold her hand. She's 18, you know, grown and knows everything but still needs her mom when she had surgery. She was working her two jobs and she decided, I'm gonna go back to school. I said, okay, we'll help you with what we can.

We didn't have to send her a lot, we just had to help, you know, make ends meet basically. So we [01:23:00] did that and she finished that school and then she started working in something that she didn't study. And she is like, mom, if I get this job, I'll be able to send you money.

And that's very painful, you know, to have to have my child send me money and she knows that I need the help. So my prosthetic leg again is breaking, and I met a group of adoptees in the States that bought me a prosthetic leg. So I've had this prosthetic leg for a year and some change. My daughter can't afford to come down and see me very often.

We don't have holidays together because we can't afford a thousand and something dollars for her to fly from up north to come down here at peak time. We haven't had holidays together. This year we were supposed to have Christmas in April, but then [01:24:00] COVID happened. She wasn't able to come down. I get to see her every two to three years when we're able to put the money together.

Haley Radke: What would it mean to you to have American citizenship?

Anissa: It would mean being able to have my family back again. On March 8th I watched my oldest sister die of cancer and I had to say goodbye to her through a video call like we're doing now. It would mean being there for my sisters when they go through their issues like they were for me when I went through my cancer. It would mean having Christmas with my daughter.

It would mean a second chance that I believe I deserve. Had I broken the law with one of my siblings, they would be at home while I was here and I should have the same rights that they [01:25:00] have through adoption and I'm not afforded that right. And I feel like I'm still doing time.

I have been robbed at gunpoint here. They took the car; they took everything in it. They left me in a ditch. I have been robbed at knife point because although I'm not an American here, they see me as an American. It would mean living in the culture that I feel and that I, I mean my Spanish, I still have an American accent.

You know, people right away think I'm from the US. A lot of people when they hear me speak English, they're like, oh, you're from New York. You know? I mean, I was taken out of this culture and my culture was erased and I was reprogrammed with another culture. And now I'm not a cute little girl that needed a family. Now I'm a [01:26:00] grown woman that, people don't seem to care about us adults.

I'm not the only one that has been deported. There are many deportees. A lot of them won't come out outta shame, but this is all I have, Haley, and if my story will help, then I have to share it. Yes, I'm not proud to sit here and undress in front of you and your listening audience, but it's the only thing I can do.

And I'm very grateful for Adoptees for Justice because they're fighting and they've given me a voice. I have been on the Hill with them through video. They've helped me so much. We don't have water. They have sent me money to buy a water tank and a water pump. Now I don't have to carry buckets of water to flush my toilet.

[01:27:00] I mean, it's just so much that we would need probably three weeks sitting here of me telling you this for you to understand what it would mean for me to gain my citizenship, for me to gain something that was promised to me when I was adopted. And not only was I adopted, the US military put me on orders and took me to the US. I mean, who do I call to get this fixed? What do I do?

Vanessa has had to go through therapy. Adoptees for Justice is trying to find me some therapy to do because I suffer with depression and suicidal thoughts. Vanessa is the only thing that is keeping me here. But then I think if I'm not here, then she doesn't have to worry about coming here and she doesn't like coming here. She gets anxious. She thinks that they're gonna rob us because our house has been broken into and robbed so many times.

We've just basically given up. [01:28:00] We're living in a different place now. It's closer in town where we have neighbors, but at the house that we lived at, we had been broken into four times. And you know, Vanessa doesn't wanna go out at night here because I was robbed at gunpoint and they took the car and it was night. And all of these things are things that I'm exposing her to living through by having her come back here.

I found my biological father's side through Facebook. They live in Canada and my father passed away while I was looking for them. I still haven't seen a picture of him yet, but I have hope that one day I will. [01:29:00] And I was doing my criminal rehabilitation to be able to go to Canada to meet them because I have four brothers and four sisters in Canada. But this whole COVID thing happened, and the lawyers haven't even answered my emails from them.

So, getting my US citizenship would mean a lot of things. I get to meet my sister, I get to go back to the States and be a part of, you know, if my parents don't wanna have anything to do with me, that's fine, but I still have my siblings and they still consider me their sister and I still consider them my sister, you know, and it would just mean to be able to be a mother to my child.

I don't wanna be a grandmother like this, you know, I don't want anything else to happen. And this is what, this is my, you know, hi, grandma loves you. No. I can't get in the car and drive up and help her on a weekend clean or go to have lunch. I just wanna go have lunch with her or go walk in the park or just spend time with her. You know?

It would mean me having my life back 'cause I really [01:30:00] feel like this is not my life. A lot of times I think I'm gonna wake up, but I can't.

Haley Radke: So, Kristopher Larson, the Executive Director of Adoptees for Justice. He's gonna come back and he is gonna give us a few things that we can do to help you and other adoptees like you.

Before we do that, you know, I just wanna give you one more opportunity. Like, what would you say to someone like me who is in Canada, there's lots of people listening in the United States. Like, what would you hope from us to share your story to impact this injustice for adoptees like yourself who don't have citizenship.

Anissa: Well, I wanna say reach out to your congressman. We need to bring this to light because a lot of people don't know that this is happening. I share this on Facebook and [01:31:00] even my friends on Facebook don't know I'm deported and don't know that I was adopted and didn't know that was possible. I asked them to reach out, send an email, share a post.

If you wanna get more involved, follow Adoptees for Justice on Facebook. They do Hill visits. They will go with you to speak to your Congressman, senator, whoever, they will go with you. You don't have to say a word, you just have to say, this sucks, and I have some people that have some information that you need to hear and I want this changed.

If you don't wanna do any of that, donate. Donate to help people have water, donate to help somebody with a medical bill. Because we're out here, we don't have food stamps, we don't have Medicaid, we don't have medical coverage. I'm a handicapped person and, you know, I'm good with the leg right now, but that came from donation, also my prosthetic leg. [01:32:00]

Just please do something. I mean, if you believe adoption is forever, or at least for this time here in this world, everybody should see this as an injustice. Doesn't matter if I broke the law or not, because biological children break the law all the time and get the second chance. We pay our time; we pay our price. And then we're released back into society hoping that, you know, we've learned a lesson.

So I ask everybody, even in Canada, you know, people in Canada know people in the US, or send an email as a Canadian, hey, I think this sucks, I don't think this is right. And the adoptee community, the domestic adoptees, I guess, I don't see their involvement and they might be involved, but I also ask them to please be involved, you know, help us because at the end of the day, if it affects one adoptee, [01:33:00] it should affect all of us.

I don't want my original birth certificate, but I send emails out to everybody. I go on a VPN and I send emails out for people to be able to access their original birth certificates, their OBCs, because I feel that that should be their right as an adult.

If I had known about cancer when I was a kid, would I have a leg now? You know, I put myself in those positions, so I ask everybody to please do something, and it's surprising the effect. We're seeing this today when we all stand together and when we all let our voices be heard. I'm not saying in a negative way, but in a good way, what can be done.

And I am very hopeful that, you know, once COVID and everything calms down, that we'll be able to get this bill, at least, voted on and passed.

Haley Radke: [01:34:00] I just, I don't even know what to say. I'm so grateful that you are willing to share your story with us. It's so powerful and just heart wrenching and, you know, I thank you for the emotional labor it takes, again, to share your story.

And I'm sure you've told it many times and I know it's gonna touch a lot of people's hearts, so I thank you and I really appreciate your calls to action. We're gonna hear a little bit more from Kristopher now about things we can do to help Adoptees for Justice.

Let's just talk a little bit more about Adoptees for Justice and what are some of the ways people can help. I mean, I think you can understand this is a critical issue. It really needs resolving. Now, I'm in Canada, but I know this impacts so many of my fellow adoptees in the States. And what are some of the ways we can help Adoptees for Justice get citizenship for all adoptees?

Kristopher Larsen: So one of the ways that citizens here can [01:35:00] help is by contacting your congressional member and showing support for the Adoptee Citizenship bill that is there.

Now we have bills in the House and in Congress for this. The best way to get information on this is to visit our website adopteesforjustice.org, which has a plethora of information on the bills themselves. But the key thing is getting constituents to call into those offices to show that support.

Now with our time of COVID, it's been challenging because we have to have a certain amount of co-sponsors to be able to move the bill, and our target number was 60. Going into COVID, I think we were right around 52, but now even during this time of COVID, we're up to 62 co-sponsors for the House, which we're pretty excited about.

We had met with our Senate and our House representatives for this bill, and this is something that they want to push this year to make sure that it gets passed. Next step is it actually working its way [01:36:00] through the immigration and subcommittee, which is where it has stalled before, and having supporters in those committees on the bill, it does make it easy to get through.

So the next step is to have that vote in the judiciary committee, and this is where we need a strong push for individuals to contact the representatives so that they will vote positively for this.

The other things that we also have going on is that we are supporting impacted adoptees. In other words, those adoptees that don't have citizenship and that do not get any type of stimulus during this time of COVID.

One of the reasons why that has been such a huge issue is that if you're a tax paying dollar like everybody else, then you should definitely be receiving that stimulus. But because you don't have your citizenship, then that automatically disqualifies you as a person to receive the stimulus.

Now, where that even affects the family members even more is that if they have a spouse that does qualify, it’s more than likely that spouse now does not qualify [01:37:00] because the adoptee didn't qualify. And so that has a chain reaction on things.

Or the deportees. Like I said, I've been fighting for people that are facing eviction now because they don't have support with people losing their jobs during this. And them not being a citizen of that nation, they're actually at the back of the line to even be able to be qualified to get a job. They don't receive any type of government support in that country itself, and so it makes it a lot more difficult.

But our website does have links on there for you to make a donation. We do have some different donation categories. One of them is a COVID relief fund where that money is specifically going towards helping individuals affected by COVID. We also have a legal fund because we also sponsor people for their citizenship paperwork that need it, that are considered low income, I guess.

And then we also have our operations costs because we do have to spend most of our time in Washington DC [01:38:00] advocating, or we have to fly to different states and meet with representatives in their home states to be able to provide this.

Last year, Adoptees for Justice was able to have 54 different events across the nation to be able to bring support for this bill and to get it to where it is now. And a lot of that was in part because of the donations that we received from members and also from organizations.

Haley Radke: Thanks for sharing that. That's really important to know. I just want your thoughts on this also. Adoptees for Justice seems to me to be very inclusive, and you're talking about citizenship for every single adoptee. No matter what. And my understanding is that there has been a bill or some bills that did not include all adoptees under that.

Can you talk a little bit about why it's so important for you to have this bill, that hopefully will eventually get passed, be inclusive for all adoptees?

Kristopher Larsen: Yeah. [01:39:00] The whole push for inclusion basically stems around the rights of a child, basically. When that child received their family and when they received that finalized order of adoption, right then they should also receive their citizenship.

That way they are granted every right and responsibility as an American citizen, just like a natural born child. When a child is born, they are a citizen. They receive all the rights as all their family members, and same with an adopted child. When a family adopts a child, there is no distinction generally between the natural born child and adopted child.

Like I said, I had three sisters and a brother. And not once have I ever heard them tell people that I was their adoptive brother. My parents never introduced me, this is my adoptive child. Those terms didn't exist because I was their child. Therefore, I should receive the same rights as their children. [01:40:00]

Now, the fact of criminality, people ask, well, why? Why should we let people that have committed crimes back in? It's not that you're letting people who committed crimes back in, you're letting citizens back in because this is something, once again, that they should have received as a child.

If you're a citizen, if your child later on in life, your natural born child later on in life commits a crime, do you deport them? Do you send them somewhere else? No. Once that person fulfills their legal obligations to the court systems, they have that chance to be citizens again. Our judiciary system now labels people coming out of incarceration as returning citizens. These individuals that have been deported should be also labeled as returning citizens 'cause that's exactly what they are.

It's very important that this bill is inclusive because previously it did leave off people that were adopted but didn't come in on adoption visas. One of the things that this bill does is remove the requirements of [01:41:00] having legal, permanent residency status. The requirement is that you came in on a valid visa, whether it's a student visa, humanitarian visas, adoption visas. As long as there's a valid visa and there's a finalized order of adoption, then you should have received your citizenship.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Thank you for educating me and all of us that are listening. I really appreciate that. The best place to find out more information about how you can help is going to adopteesforjustice.org. As Kristopher said earlier, and, you know, we're recording this in the time of COVID, so we mentioned that fundraiser to help adoptees without citizenship to receive some financial aid right now.

And if you're listening in future, I'm sure there's other things that they have put up on their website. Ways you can help, ways you can reach your representatives to really let them know how important this bill is to you. And yeah. I thank you so much, Kristopher, for telling us about this. I really [01:42:00] appreciate your time.

Wow, that was a huge topic. Very heavy. I think there's hope, there's hope at the end of it all, and especially with our action. One of the most moving things Anissa said, I don't know if this really spoke to you too, was how she talked about how she literally gets on a VPN to change her address to being in the United States so she can write in for adoptees to access their original birth certificates.

And I don't know why that was just so moving for me, you know, like she would do that for us. So, you know, isn't it the least we can do for her to write in to our representatives? And you know, even from Canada, I'm thinking about, oh my goodness, what can I do from here? It’s just mind boggling to me that this is still on the table. [01:43:00]

Anyway, usually I do a call to action and I do wanna thank all my monthly supporters, you know, without you, I wouldn't be able to do shows like this and bring up these issues. And so I'm just so grateful to you that you are keeping the show sustainable and going forward, and so thank you.

But today I really, if you do anything, please head over to the Adoptees for Justice website. I will have all of those things linked in the show notes, which you can find on adopteeson.com. And if you just click through on your podcast app, whatever you're listening to, you can find the links right there in your podcast app as well.

And do something that Kristopher challenged us to do, do something Anissa challenged us to do. I think this is a critical issue and just like all the heavy things that are going on right now, it's very easy for us to put our heads in the sand and just [01:44:00] pretend it's not happening and just be like, wow, that was a really sad story, and move on and do something else.

Please don't do that. Please go to their website, figure out who you need to email, who you need to call if you're able to financially donate to support their work, I would encourage you to do that. I just wanna thank Adoptees for Justice for trusting me with Anissa's story and with their organization’s story.

I really hope that our community can make an impact for Anissa and for the other adoptees who are without citizenship. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again soon.

142 [Healing Series] Food Insecurity

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/142

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we are talking about food insecurity. We do touch on the topic of intuitive eating in this episode, but we are not referring to losing weight or dieting or any of those types of topics, if that is a challenging subject for you. We tried to make this as safe as possible. Okay with that, let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Janet Nordine. Hi, Janet.

Janet Nordine: Hi, Haley. How are you doing?

Haley Radke: I am a level…I don't know. I was gonna say I'm a level 5 but that doesn't mean anything. What does that mean? Yeah, we're in unprecedented times here. We're recording during the Covid crisis of 2020 and, yeah, it's a perplexing time.

Janet Nordine: Yes. We here in Nevada call it “stay home for Nevada.” That's where I am.

Haley Radke: That's nice. In Alberta we're supposed to stay home, but there's no cute name, so stay home for Alberta.

Janet Nordine: We have a hashtag. It's a hashtag.

Haley Radke: Come on. That's perfect. Love hashtag.

During this time we've had a few zoom calls for the Adoptees On Patreon, and there's been some themes coming up that people are struggling with some similar things, and one of them is food. And you kind of jumped in right away and were talking about some things that really I had some light bulb moments about. And we had a couple people say, oh my gosh, you guys have to do a Healing Series episode about this. And so what you were calling it was food insecurity? Can you explain what that means?

Janet Nordine: Sure, and I can kind of explain that from a perspective of my own life experience. I've been on the show before, so people have heard kind of my story, but the part that I didn't share then was I came to my parents at about seven months old and I was underweight and I couldn't eat off a spoon, and the back of my head was flat.

I'd been in an adoptive placement prior to them and then in foster care. And I had a lot of difficulty just relating to food and being able to be fed. And I've worked on that and thought about that and struggled with that most of my life. And had I been a baby born today in that situation, I would have been probably diagnosed with failure to thrive, which is when a baby can't take in nourishment and has a difficult time with that process of eating.

All of my life, I have worried about food. As a child, I was the kid that hid the food. I never wanted somebody else to have a special treat because that meant I wasn't a specialism. So even into adulthood, and even as a therapist, it's something I still work on. Carbs and bread, that's the crack cocaine for me, that's the thing that gives me comfort.

I grew up in a family where food was a big deal. My grandmother was an amazing cook. Both my parents were amazing cooks. A lot of things rotated around the family dinner time. So food insecurity for me really means is there going to be enough food? When is the next meal? What am I going to eat? I'm planning ahead, always thinking about it.

So my insecurity and other children and adults’ insecurities wrap around that early childhood, even in utero experience of food. So that's where the term food insecurity comes from.

Haley Radke: I've heard this from other adoptees, especially those that have been in foster care, multiple placements, orphanages for a long time. That food hoarding thing, like sneaking things away and hiding them in your bedroom or having a stockpile somewhere and this really gets me, but I've seen some adoptive parents who will put a lock on the pantry or the fridge because of that. Is that something that is actually, I don't know, I wouldn't say it's like super common, but is it? I don’t know.

Janet Nordine: In some foster homes I would say that is super common because the kids will get into food and it becomes a power struggle, doesn't it? And what they can control is what they're putting in their mouth and their belly.

And then the parent or whoever is the caregiver doesn't want them to eat all the food, or have it be gone, or not have it be there when they need it, so they'll put a lock on it and then it becomes a shaming issue. I'm not supposed to have food, now I'm shamed because of it. So yeah, that does happen. I wouldn't say it's helpful at all.

Haley Radke: And so kids who are now adults but who had a stockpile in their room or felt they need to save food just because they don't know when the next meal is coming, or they're afraid that there's not going to be another meal coming.

Janet Nordine: There's some of that that happens. Yes. And so I have to hide food because I need to know what's available to me when I need it. I'm the one that needs to know where it is, so if I get hungry, I can go and find my little stash in the closet and I can be able to feed myself when I need to.

Yeah, it's a control issue. It's also just a biochemical response to stress. I'm feeling stressed and when I eat that cookie or that sweet thing, I get that sugar rush and I have that moment of, oh, I feel better because those good brain chemicals got released into my body.

Haley Radke: I'm not gonna say whether or not I grabbed a cookie right before I came down here, but I did.

Okay. Now, this in the context of Covid, people are under shelter-in-place, or we're watching the videos of the grocery stores with bare shelves mostly. Toilet paper, empty, but also pantry staples.

Janet Nordine: I can't find pasta. There's no pasta.

Haley Radke: Guess what? All you gluten eaters are also buying the gluten-free pasta. So you're welcome for what you have to eat now.

But it's really highlighting this in us, right? If it wasn't obvious to us before that we might have had a little issue with food insecurity. I don't say “little” to minimize it, but if it wasn't top of mind as an adult, this can kind of bring it out, which is what I'm sure seeing in some of the adoptee groups.

Janet Nordine: It definitely does exacerbate the problem. Like, if there's nothing at the store, then there's really nothing. What am I going to do now? Where is that going to come from? I can't trust my community to provide food for me. I can't trust; my parents didn't provide food for me. Where is that going to come from?

Yes, it's very scary when you go to the store and here in Las Vegas there's lots of stores that have lots of empty shelves. It's getting a little bit better now that we're 4-5 weeks in. But in the beginning it reminded me of the seventies during the breadlines in Russia, when you would just see people lined up waiting for the food.

That was something that just came to mind as I was seeing people lining up and waiting and, yeah.

Haley Radke: I definitely noticed heightened anxiety in myself when I couldn't find the gluten-free pasta because especially since I'm celiac I can't have gluten, right? Or it makes me violently ill, whatever. It's kind of a big deal. My family can all eat gluten, but I can't. And so that was this extra layer for me of, oh my gosh, what am I going to eat if I can't find the things that are safe for me to eat?

Janet Nordine: And then we, as adoptees, if we've had any of those food insecurities as little people, little children, we have that feeling as if I don't have food, the instant I need it, I will die.

That's kind of that intense feeling that you go through.

Haley Radke: Wow. So I know that there's lots of people experiencing this heightened anxiety and around food, not just adoptees. But specifically talking to adoptees who are listening, what are some things that we can kind of learn about ourselves?

And, I don't want to say work on during this time, but it's calling attention to something in ourselves that maybe needs addressing.

Janet Nordine: For me, as I began to research and I began to work with a new therapist that does a lot of body psychotherapy, it really normalized things for me to know that I'm not the only one.

And little babies that are not adopted, they have some of these same struggles. Other people that are not adopted have some of these same struggles and adoptees have these same struggles. So for me, getting the information. Knowledge is power.

When I can learn something about how my body responds and how it's responding perfectly normal for this situation that I'm experiencing right now, I feel like I can work with the situation or the problem or whatever is being presented and I can heal and I can move forward.

So as I've done research, my relationship with food really starts in utero. So what I know about my own experience of being in utero, since I've met my birth mother, is she shared that she was hiding in a trailer during the first of her pregnancy with very little food, smoking cigarettes. So when I was born, I was low birth weight, which we know is a contributing factor from smoking.

And I didn't get a lot of food in utero so I started off with that implicit memory, like Dr. Julie Lopez speaks about, of food is life and I don't have a good relationship already with food, so having that information was great for me because then I could really say, oh, now I understand what's going on in my body when I feel like I don't have enough food.

When the relationship ruptures, any relationship, it creates a lifetime of wondering will I ever have food again? This relationship with food, if it's had some attachment issues. Is there enough food? Will I need to hide the food? When will the food come to me again? So just learning about how your body functions and listening to people that are super wise and seeking out guidance and support has been so helpful for me.

Haley Radke: One thing I will never forget, I might not have the wording exactly right, but I was talking to one of our mutual friends, Anne Heffron, and one of the things she said was, I'm still waiting for my first good meal. And she was talking about that in context of she didn't get breastfed after birth. And this is not to shame formula versus nursing or any of those kinds of things. But we don't necessarily know what our first meal was in hospital.

Janet Nordine: Sure, and that was one of the things I said on that Zoom call that I was just amazed by the response. I said, who fed us first? I have no idea either.

I know I went out one door and my mother, birth mother, went out the other door, so I don't know if some nun who was a nurse gave me a bottle or if it was propped up or what happened. My brain can create all kinds of scenarios and stories, and none of them are great.

But yeah, I've spoken to Anne about food, too, and we talk about what we are hungry for. What is that? What are we hungry for? What we are looking for and what that little baby needs is that attachment and that attunement with the person that feeds them. As you're holding that baby and you're making eye contact, and whether you're breastfeeding or using a bottle or however the baby's getting food, it's the eye contact and the attunement and the connection that they need.

And then, if the person that's doing the feeding, the caregiver, is anxious or angry or annoyed at the end of their shift, whatever's going on, the baby's picking up that. What babies can do, they don't know they're hungry, they just know that they need some need met. So they cry.

So then they come to get fed. And the anxious caregiver is feeding them. The baby picks up on that eye contact and that energy of the anxiety that the person's feeling. And then they get the clue that, oh, this food means that I'm not really attaching to this person. So then their little body and their little nervous system has other responses because they're not attuning to the caregiver that's giving them the food.

So the baby's looking for the attachment, not necessarily the food. So when you've been feeding a baby, your own or somebody else's, it's that cooing and that's that “Oh, what a good little”, and all of that, that the baby needs and loves and helps it grow. And if they're with a foster home or a nurse or whomever, maybe that's not happening for them. And I'm not saying foster parents and nurses are not doing that, but maybe not in the way the baby needs.

Haley Radke: Wow, that's fascinating. And then, of course, these are like our earliest memories that are getting built. Non-verbal.

Janet Nordine: The baby learns that the food is the comfort, not the attachment. So it's meeting the need. My tummy's full, but I'm not really attaching. But now I feel better because I'm not crying because my tummy's full.

So food becomes comfort. And for me that means cinnamon toast becomes comfort.

Haley Radke: The food becomes comfort, not the attachment.

Janet Nordine: Yes, the signal to the body is that the food is satisfying and it's very confusing because they're not getting the attachment and the attunement, but they're satisfied.

Haley Radke: So how is this related to just oral stimulation in general because people have this thing with putting things in their mouths if it's food or a cigarette or chewing on your nails. What I've heard, I don't know, I didn't research this, but that's a comforting thing and a lot of people are going back to maybe nervous habits that have to do with the mouth during this time because it brings some sort of comfort.

Janet Nordine: Yes. It's exactly the comfort. It's not necessarily the process of eating or the process of smoking or the process of touching your mouth or, we can't touch our face. We do it all the time. Now I notice so many times I touch my face more than ever.

But we have in our body, we have two brains. We have a brain in our head and we have a brain in our belly. So what's happening when you're eating or you're using that oral stimulation, your belly brain is saying, oh, I'm getting satisfied. I feel better.

Haley Radke: So it's just things aren't right. Something is off because, yes, I'm stuck at home with my children.

Janet Nordine: Yeah. The belly brain speaks to us about our language of satisfaction and sensation, like it needs that sensation of eating or that sensation of chewing or all of those things to feel satisfied and feel comfort.

Haley Radke: It's just an extra way of giving ourselves comfort. But it's unconscious, right? Like we can kinda just start doing that without deciding to,

Janet Nordine: Yes. So I have this book that I've been reading and I love it. It's called The Heart of Trauma by Dr. Bonnie Badenoch, and that'll be one of my recommended resources.

But she said “the quality of our relationships both past and present impacts our ability to take in nourishment.” Isn't that interesting?

Like our ability to take in nourishment, not that we need nourishment. But how is our relationship with our caregiver? How is our relationship with food? Do we eat it because we're hungry and we’re nervous or anxious or bored or whatever the reasons, or do we eat it to really nourish our bodies? What's the purpose of the food that we're putting in our mouths that's going into our stomachs?

Haley Radke: That is interesting. Wow. Okay. So at the beginning you were kind of sharing that this has impacted your life and you've shared with me privately that this is something that you are working on.

Can you talk a little bit about that, about your personal journey and what led you to reading this book and looking more into this food insecurity idea?

Janet Nordine: On a personal level, I've always wanted to kind of get my eating under control. I'm an overeater and I am seeing a therapist and her name is Wendy Dingee and she is an integrative body practitioner, a psychotherapy practitioner.

And amazingly enough, she was someone in Las Vegas that does this type of therapy who's also adopted. So to me, finding this unicorn of somebody I didn't already know and that also has this shared experience has been huge for me. So one thing, I chose this particular therapist because I really wanted to work on body stuff, not just food intake but how I feel in my body.

One thing in one of our very first sessions, we were talking about the process of adoption. And for me, I started out as a problem. The person that was carrying me, she couldn't keep me. So that became a problem. I was placed for adoption. So that was another problem. And for a lot of years I felt like I shouldn't even have a body.

Like I couldn't feel my body; sensation was weird. Sometimes when I eat, I don't really notice that I'm full so I'll keep eating. So we talked about that and she uses the phrase: “of course, of course, you feel that way.” “Of course, that's your response.” And just the more that I heard the “of course,” the more I was able to recognize like, oh, I've been doing all these things, of course, because of how I started out in life.

What's amazing is the more I accept the “of course,” the more I'm able to make changes and make some space between the trauma of some of those things and the ability to make change and heal. And now I'm starting to feel like I deserve to have a body and I deserve to do things. And I don’t have to hide and live small anymore.

And it's really feeling the sensation of my body. We do a lot of breathing work in our sessions, which has been amazing. And connecting. And the more I'm able to take in a deep breath, I can feel like my lungs filling and I can feel like the cells in my body moving. So it's really been a life-changing, life-altering experience to do this type of work.

And I think as an adopted person, if we don't feel like we deserve or have a body or can do anything with our body, then finding a therapist or somebody that can do some body work is just an exceptional way of trying to get back in, live your full life and live the life you deserve.

Haley Radke: Don't we practice so often just ignoring all those cues? Like we're so disconnected. And not just adoptees, but you know, I think a lot of people are just completely disconnected.

Janet Nordine: Yes. Then you don't feel like you should exist at all. Of course, you're going to disconnect from your body because you shouldn't have been here in the first place. Of course.

Haley Radke: Of course. Wow.

Janet Nordine: And then that “I don't deserve” is such a theme for adoptees. We don't deserve whatever good comes into our life because, of course, we don't deserve. Our very first person that brought us into the world couldn't keep us, didn't want us. Of course, we feel that way.

Haley Radke: And I guess I'm going to say now that we're having this discussion and it's not “let's eat less to go on a diet” or something. It's literally not about that whatsoever.

Janet Nordine: For me, it's about noticing: Oh, I notice I'm kind of full. I don't have to finish this huge plate of mashed potatoes on my plate. I just notice it. There's no shame in it whatsoever.

There's no I'm going to go on a keto diet or I'm going to take something away from me because that's what my body's had all this time. I was taken away and so I took away the deserving. So now I'm just noticing. This is the first phase of this change for me. I'm just noticing when I'm full or I'm noticing when I think I need to go eat.

What is the emotion I'm having? Generally it's anxiety. Or boredom. I don't have anything else to do, let me go have a bowl of cereal. But as I'm noticing those emotions, I can work with them differently. I can do some different exercises. I can take a walk, I can pet my dog, I can do some polyvagal exercises that I've learned and that's so helpful to help me balance things that are happening within my body.

I'm not really hungry. I'm just whatever the emotion is.

Haley Radke: That’s rebuilding the connection, right? Wow.

Janet Nordine: Yep. Neurons that fire together wire together, and that's the relationship with food.

Haley Radke: You're a science nerd. I love that you have a little rhyme for that. Can you talk about this a little more, about the brain science? What's happening when we're eating? I mean, period.

Janet Nordine: I mentioned the belly brain, right? So the belly brain has about 40 trillion neurons, give or take a few. So there's a chapter in Dr. Badenoch’s book called “The Belly Brain,” and she talks about the neurons and she talks about the science, and I love the way that she explains it and it's really deep, but then she has little parts in it where she'll stop and say, let's pause for reflection, and I enjoy that.

But what happens when we're eating is we're trying to satiate our hunger, of course, but also it's telling our belly brain ways that we are interacting with our environment. It's telling us about our relationships. It's really helped me understand how I function as a human being. Like, everything that's happening within our body with the stimulus of needing to eat and the response of being full is exactly how it's supposed to happen.

So the more I notice, the more I'm able to pay attention, the more I'm learning about how to not feel that shame about eating or the shame about overeating. So I'm just noticing those things, like I said.

And “the greater intensity that we listen without judgment or intention is how we can make change and have a healing practice around food.” And that's a quote from her book as well.

Recently I listened to a webinar by Robyn Gobbel, who's a social worker that I've done training with, and she's a great friend to adoptees. She works with adopting families and children and she recently had a webinar on how we love food and how food will nourish us.

“Loving and feeding a child with a history of trauma” was the name of the webinar. And I love that she talked about how digestion is suppressed in the fight or flight. And this may tell us we are not full or we don't have an appetite.

So those of us that have learned to pay attention to that trauma response, a fight, flight, or freeze. I'm a freezer. It affects our digestion. And when I learned that my freezing, when I'm feeling anxious or my anger level is up and I'm fighting, that my digestion is suppressed and that I don't feel that I'm full, that was a game changer. Like I can think about or I can feel in my body, what is that emotion I'm having?

And then my belly brain will kick in and it'll be able to say, you don't really need to eat right now because it's suppressing your digestion. It's suppressing that need to eat. So everything's all connected, which is amazing. Both our brains are connected. Our bodies are connected, everything is working exactly how it's supposed to for our situation.

And when we can recognize that and give some space for acceptance, we're able to make changes and heal. The plasticity that I've spoken about on your show before, how we're plastic. Not only is our brain and our head plastic, but our body is too. So it can change and grow.

Haley Radke: And what's happening in your brain when you're walking through the grocery store and there's the empty shelves of things that you were hoping for or actually needed?

Janet Nordine: Well, isn't that disappointment and a little bit of fear too, right? Like we're afraid of what's really happening in our community. We don't know what's going to happen next. So if we're able to calm our nervous system, we're able to do some of those, like I'm going to do this butterfly hug thing where you just cross your arms and pat your left hand, right hand opposite on your shoulders. That's a polyvagal exercise that you can do that's calming.

It might look weird in a grocery store aisle when you can't find the pasta but, you know, who cares? We're all wearing masks and gloves anyways, so we're all looking weird in the first place. But that's something I do with my clients. We do butterfly hugs and I know other therapists that do those as well. And it's helpful. I mean, I just did that and I feel a little calmer. That settles me.

Haley Radke: That's something that my psychologist has recommended for one of my sons when he is anxious before bed. Because you can do it to yourself.

Janet Nordine: Sure. There's lots of little things you can do with your body. The whole key is feeling your body. Where in your body are you feeling that? What's your body feel like? Like right now, I'm sitting in a chair with a cushion. I can feel the cushion under me. I'm touching my knees. I can feel my knees with my fingers. I can see this wall in front of me. I can see you with your beautiful goldenrod blouse on and just naming things and it helps to settle that down.

Haley Radke: That's pretty good info, Janet. What else do we need to know?

Janet Nordine: I was going to share with you a sensory grounding activity that I like to do with kids, and adults can do it too, if that's okay.

Haley Radke: I love it. I'm always your guinea pig. So let's go.

Janet Nordine: So, Haley, name five things you can see right now.

Haley Radke: A mug, a whiteboard, audio foam. My microphone, kleenex.

Janet Nordine: Okay. Name four things you can hear.

Haley Radke: My furnace hum. Which is very irritating.

Janet Nordine: Mostly cuz it's April and the furnace is on.

Haley Radke: Yeah. When we're recording I have a heating pad on as well. Just I can't hear it but I hear my dog breathing because she's sleeping next to me. I can hear the rustling from my headphones touching my head.

Janet Nordine: That’s really good awareness. Good. What's the fourth thing you can hear? Maybe my voice when I'm talking to you.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I'm like, I don't hear anything else. I'm listening because I'm like, are my kids still upstairs? Quiet. They're being quiet. That's good. I can't hear them.

Janet Nordine: Can you name three things you can touch?

Haley Radke: My desk, my laptop, my water bottle.

Janet Nordine: Perfect. Name two things you can smell. That might be a little harder right now.

Haley Radke: I can smell the foam around my microphone. I grabbed my lip gloss. I can smell that.

Janet Nordine: What scent is it? Can you name it?

Haley Radke: It smells like vanilla.

Janet Nordine: Perfect. And the last thing, number one, the one thing you can taste, maybe you don't taste anything right now, but what's something you look forward to tasting?

Haley Radke: Ginger snap. Gluten-free.

Janet Nordine: And that's just a grounding activity. You're using all your senses. You use psych, you're hearing, your touch, your smell, your taste. And what that does is it allows your brain to go into the senses and it gets you into your body. So it's a grounding activity you can do when you're feeling stressed.

Haley Radke: Okay, so before I came down, I was hungry. I grabbed a cookie, sat down. My stomach was kind of unsettled. I always kind of get nervous. Even if I'm talking to a friend when I'm recording, I'm like, oh my gosh, please let the technology work right. I have all those things going on, and when I finish that my stomach is calm and fine. I don't feel like it's upset.

Janet Nordine: Yeah. You know, what's interesting about our physical response you just explained, we can either think it's anxiety or excitement, they feel the same. So which do you think it was?

Haley Radke: Oh, for me it's both.

Janet Nordine: Okay, and they're one and the same. The label doesn't matter. It's just you're noticing in your body how you're feeling. You described it perfectly.

Haley Radke: That's so interesting because in adoption we talk about having this “holding the joy and grief at the same time.” And so excitement and anxiety at the same time.

That's totally true. I love that you said that for me. Because I am concerned about tech failure during recording or me screwing up in some way, being so unfocused I can't ask the right questions or whatever. But I am also excited. I'm excited to engage with you.

Janet Nordine: Yeah. And if I can quote my therapist, Wendy, one more time, she says, being human is messy. And I love that. It doesn't matter if you messed up. It doesn't matter if I misquote or if something happens. It's just being human and it's okay.

That's given me such permission. Just that one phrase has given me permission not to be perfect in everything I do. Because don't we all, as many of us have as adoptees, have that “I have to do it just right.” I have to be compliant. I have to do things in a certain way. I can mess up now and I don't shame myself into eating all the toast.

Haley Radke: You're like, this is just a human thing.

Janet Nordine: Yeah. And I can be a therapist that works with people and I can have flaws. That's another thing that's amazing that that has given me permission to do.

Haley Radke: I love that. That's such a good thought. And, I mean, people have big feelings about food anyway.

Janet Nordine: Food is amazing. I mean, Anne (Heffron) turned me on to Chef's Table. I can turn on Chef's Table on Netflix and completely lose myself in the music and the process of cooking. And that's something I love too.

I love to cook and I love to nourish people and I love to make cinnamon rolls and share them with my friends and family because it gives me this great pleasure, but it also really tastes good.

Haley Radke: Yeah. And that's one thing about my views, I'm in the Health At Every Size camp and have learned a lot about intuitive eating and those kinds of things which are nothing to do with losing weight or body shaming or any of those kinds of things. And it's so good to just talk about what those adjacent issues are that some of us struggle with, without coming to it from a shaming sort of lens.

Janet Nordine: Sure. You know, when you can embrace your curves, that's a game changer.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's right. That's so good.

Thank you. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you want to make sure we get to?

Janet Nordine: I think that one of the things that I wanted to share is nutrition and relational safety. This is from Robyn Gobbel again: When they were offered together in infancy, that's when we know that we're okay.

What we're still doing as grownups and as humans is we're seeking safety all the time. And sometimes that safety comes in food. And when we can recognize that we can be safe, even without the food, that's really big. We don't have to do the overeating or undereating or punishing ourselves with food.

But we can seek safety and we can be okay just because we know we're safe.

Haley Radke: I think there's something freeing about knowing that there are these underlying reasons for the way we are. That there's other people who are thinking about these things the same way. Just like you said at the beginning, I'm not alone.

Janet Nordine: Right. Any little baby that would've been taken immediately from their mother to go into the NICU has some of these same struggles. Not adopted, they're staying with their family, but they were taken right away and they didn't get that immediate nurture that they needed.

So, it's that phrase “any little baby who has these experiences” is helpful.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much. I think this was really valuable. Now, you mentioned the book, The Heart of Trauma

Janet Nordine: Yes. It’s by Bonnie Badenoch and she's in the Pacific Northwest, and I know she does trainings and consultations and things, but all of her books are just amazing.

Another one that she's written is called Being a Brain-Wise Therapist but, really, I think anybody that's interested in psychotherapy, that's a good book for them too.

Haley Radke: And the thing I mentioned about intuitive eating, one of my best friends is a dietician and she recommends this book, Intuitive Eating by Evelyn Tribole and Elyse Resch. Oh boy, my pronunciation, I'm so sorry. I do my best.

It's really well done, very informative and helpful and a lot of the things that you were talking about, Janet, about noticing and those are like in the first stages of intuitive eating and paying attention to feelings and those kinds of things.

It's a very step-by-step process to learn how to get to that point where you are eating in a way that is the most helpful for your body.

Janet Nordine: Yeah. It's more nourishing for yourself so you can have safety. And you know, Haley, I'm not there either. I'm still in the infancy stage of making change in my life, but what I do know is I want to live long.

I want to live as long as I can, and I want to be healthy, and I want to feel good. So these are the reasons I really want to make changes in the way my relationship with food is.

Haley Radke: Thank you. And thank you for sharing some of your personal story. I think a lot of people will identify with that and I think as soon as we think of our early days, it will bring up things for people, and this is just one of those factors.

Janet Nordine: Yeah, and when I think of that little baby Janet, I can send her love and I can support her and I can visualize what I might have looked like and I can provide some of that for her. I have this phrase that I'm using now and just in my brain and my life, like I'm looking for the full Janet-ness that is in me.

I'm really trying to find that and by nurturing that little baby me has been really helpful to be this grownup person that can live in all of my Janet-ness. I don't have to hide anymore. It's awesome.

Haley Radke: Once again, I'll say I love that.

Janet Nordine: Yeah, so you can live in your full Haley-ness.

Haley Radke: Full Haley-ness, yes. Wonderful. Thank you. Where can we connect with you online?

Janet Nordine: You can connect with me online on Facebook: Experience Courage Therapy & Consulting. Janet Nordine, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Registered Play Therapist Supervisor. I'm on Instagram as well, so just look for Experience Courage.

Haley Radke: And you are taking clients in your own practice now, aren't you?

Janet Nordine: I am. Smart me, the week before the quarantine, I opened a private practice. Isn't that awesome?

Haley Radke: It's great timing, but I know you do things online.

Janet Nordine: Yes. Also, in my infinite wisdom, I did keep a part-time clinic job, too, so I'm pretty busy in this world of teletherapy. It's been going well.

Haley Radke: I've shared a couple places, but I am doing my therapy online with my psychologist because my boys are home and I don't want to take them into the office. And it's been fine.

Janet Nordine: The greatest thing for me right now is my therapist, Wendy Dingee, is still seeing some clients in the office and I get to make a trek across town and have an adventure and go to therapy once a week. So it's been really good.

Haley Radke: That's so good. Thank you so much, Janet.

Okay. Confession time. I am struggling. Oh my gosh, I told my kids to be quiet and they're still making noise upstairs, like how do you record with little kids in the house? I don't even know.

Anyway, I'm struggling to keep to a weekly schedule and I already told you a couple weeks ago that has meant some interviews have been canceled because people are struggling and aren't able to record, not in a good mental space, which I totally respect. And then I am struggling to find quiet times where I can actually book someone and have that hour of focus.

Anyway, I think what I'm going to do during this time is go to an every other week schedule, which is not what I wanted to do, but that's where we are now. I don't think I have a choice at this point, so my apologies.

I am really doing the best I can. I have some other extenuating circumstances, which I will tell you about in a few weeks probably. But yeah, we are working on some things here and it's just woo, it's a whole juggle.

So if you are working from home, if you are sheltering in place, if you have little kids with you, if you are by yourself, whatever your circumstance, if you are feeling it like I am, I am sending my good thoughts toward you and solidarity. It's a whole thing.

And I never expected, none of us did, really, to be living this way. And I mean, frankly, I'm speaking from a place of privilege because I still know that we have groceries and a house and all of those things, and I feel safe where we are and I feel like there's lots of people that aren't able to say those things, so I understand the privilege I'm coming to. And yet this is still hard.

So anyway, I thank you for listening. I hope this episode was helpful for you in some way if you deal with food insecurity, and I'm going to keep putting up new episodes but, like I said, they'll be every other week.

And I also have a Patreon podcast that I put up every week. So if you really want to keep the show going and you want to hear me ramble on every week, for some reason, adopteeson.com/partner has details of how you can get the Adoptees Off Script podcast, and that is for monthly supporters as a thank you for helping the show continue.

And there are instructions on Patreon for how you can have that podcast drop right into your podcast app where you like to listen, just like you would play this show. So it's really simple and I'm updating Patreon. There's going to be some new things that are happening over there.

And one thing we've been doing during this time of sheltering in place or quarantine or whatever you're experiencing in this lockdown (I don't know what to call it even) is we've been having some Zoom calls with Patreon supporters and those have been really good and helpful and encouraging to me. So I'm going to continue to do that when I'm able.

And so that's another bonus as well. And there's a link for that in Patreon. Also when there's a new Zoom call, I put that in Patreon as well as in the secret Facebook group. Okay. Adopteeson.com/partner if you want to support the show. And we're going biweekly. Why did it take me so long to tell you that?

Sending you love. I hope that you're doing well and that you're keeping healthy and staying safe. Thank you if you are out there working as an essential employee in some fashion; thank you if you're staying home to keep everyone else healthy. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again and two Fridays from now.