249 Angela Tucker

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/249

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Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to adoptees on the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Today's guest is Angela Tucker, one of the most well-known, adopted people in our community, subject of the documentary Closure, now turned author of You Should Be Grateful: Stories of Race, Identity and Transracial Adoption.

Angela shares about her time as a caseworker in private adoption and about the difficulties of balancing the Tightrope Act of critiquing adoption, and still being invited back into adoption spaces. We also chat about how the subject of adoption shows up in Hollywood storylines is slowly evolving.

Before we get started, I wanted to invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources for you, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, Adopteeson.com.

If you are a first time listener, welcome, glad to have you with us. We elevate adoptee voices in this space. It is our soul focus, and so I hope you feel seen and understood and have at least one or two takeaways where you can feel validated and like. You belong because you do. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Angela Tucker. Hello, Angela.

Angela Tucker: Hi, Haley.

Haley: I know this isn't the first time we've talked, but it is the first time you're on the show. How is that possible?

Angela Tucker: It's really wild.

Haley: Yeah. Well, why don't we start how we always do. Do you share a little bit of your story with us?

Angela Tucker: Sure. I would be glad to. I also kind of irk at the phrase, "share your story" because I think it kind of feels like adoptees are placed in a binary when we're asked. I know you asked this of all your guests, and it's not a critique on that, but it's, it's this strange pressure that I automatically feel to like entertain by sharing my story.

Resisting the urge to entertain just the cut and dry facts are that I was adopted from foster care from the state of Tennessee to Washington State. Adopted into a large family. My parents adopted several children and multi- race family. My parents are white, I'm Black. My siblings are, some are Black white, Asian, and my parents had one biological daughter.

I was in a closed adoption, and it was just about 10 years ago, a little more than a decade ago, that I found my biological family, which was a thrill, and that is all documented in my documentary called Closure, which is available and, it was originally, the intent was just to gather home video footage for myself in moments when I wasn't sure that I'd ever get the opportunity again.

So I thought if this was the first and last time that I'd ever seen my birth mother, I wanted it on camera. So he captured it. But at the time, I was also working as an adoption case worker for private domestic adoptions, and I was finding that a lot of my clients were afraid of the very thing that I was going through.

So a lot of my clients would say things like, we wanna adopt a newborn baby and give them the best life possible. We don't really feel like they need to know their biological family, cuz we're gonna give them everything they need. And so I was like, oh, you know, why don't I share with my clients that I'm adopted?

I have wonderful adoptive parents and that was not enough. And if I could show them some clips of this video where perhaps they could see themselves in my parents and see their future child in me, that it might lead to them choosing openness for the future adoption of their child. So with that, we decided to make this home video footage into something a little more presentable. And we're just shocked and floored when Netflix and Hulu and iTunes called wanting to put it on their platforms. It was just all a great surprise.

Haley: I, I've seen you say the title Closure was your goal at the start of your search. And I can anticipate that lots of folks, especially outside of the adoption world, would see that title and come to the point that, oh yeah, you have closure now.

So can you speak to that a little bit? Do you have closure now?

Angela Tucker: Is everything all wrapped up tidy in a bow. No. But yeah, my outset at the outset, not just of making this film, but for my entire life of wondering who my birth parents were and where they were, I thought, yes, at the moment I met them, I would feel complete like a puzzle, missing puzzle piece just snapped together.

And of course, that's not how it works. I did gain an immeasurable amount of confidence and kind of self-esteem, less fractured identity, when I met my biological family. But I was surprised when my birth mother couldn't tell me the details that I thought she would just have.

And so it, that experience kind of helped me realize that she is a human being that has undergone so much trauma that has made it tough for her to remember all of the details when she gave birth to me. And I think that's really a, a lovely point, you know, to, to understand that not only did I not get closure, but that concept is unattainable for even the best of us because we're humans.

So probably to give a an example of that, I thought for sure that I would be able to meet my biological mother and ask her, what time did you go to the hospital? Did your water break? What was that like? Who took you to the hospital? I was kind of centered on those facts and those experiences that I wanted to know right away and she can't remember.

She doesn't know. And so that assumption that I had was quickly replaced with, I think, more empathy about, you know, why would she want to commit that to memory, and what a great survival skill for her to kind of wipe that out if she's not gonna have the privilege of being able to know me and see me grow up, you know.

So I don't have closure, but in a sense I have something better, which is a humanizing of all the people in my biological family, and that's quite wonderful too.

Haley: I think there's a stereotype for a lot of us that our biological parents were you know, could be what teens or, you know, impoverished or struggling with drug addiction or, you know, there's, there's the stigma around biological parents and for a lot of adopted people, that is absolutely a fallacy. It's not true.

Now, in your case, you discover and you share in your new book, You Should Be Grateful, which is, we'll talk a little bit about as well. But I wanna make sure people know the title. So you share in the documentary and as well as in your book when you are searching and you do find out these pieces that your, both parents are in a position of poverty and houselessness. When you found those things out and, and through the years, how have you processed those pieces of information?

You know, I've talked to adoptees before who are, you know, find out the nature of their conception can sometimes be upsetting and having to kind of go through that. So how has that been for you, understanding that, and what would you say to fellow adoptees who do find out that, that those are the circumstances of, the reason for relinquishment?

Angela Tucker: For me, getting a better understanding of my biological, both sides of my biological family's, like socioeconomic status has, I think it catapulted me into thinking more about the history of the United States, the history of Black people in the South specifically, which is where my biological families are from.

I think it's always important to remember that there's not a single adoption that isn't complex. You know, I think sometimes we tend to compare traumas and, you know, your story was harder than mine or that kind of thing. And I think in general, there's not a single adoption story that is easy, or if it is, perhaps an adoption should not have happened in the first place.

But for me, thinking, trying to understand why I needed to be adopted with just the information that I had, which was that my birth mother struggled with homelessness, my birth father as well, it made me think about, you know, mass incarceration of the 1980s and nineties when Hillary Clinton called Black men super predators.

And I think about that because that really led to kind of the demise of Black families staying together. I couldn't help but think about the Jim Crow era. I couldn't help but think about redlining and how all of those like policies and practices that we did in the US in the south led to people like my biological mother not being able to have stability in their lives and therefore leading to not being able to raise their children. Not having a home.

Part of this I think, is really important to think about the ways that our history, for me, Black history impacts my transracial adoption. I think a sliver of it is also a bit of an excuse because, or perhaps a denial, instead of a possibility that perhaps my biological mother simply didn't want to parent me.

That could be the case, but I, instead of facing that really deep sadness, I like to think about her lack of choice as a result of laws, policies, within the United States.

Haley: I heard you share, and I think you comment on it on your book as well about how Deborah says like, you know, you went out one side and, and were adopted and whatever, and where are the resources for her? You know, after giving birth unhoused and like, where's my supports?

Angela Tucker: Yeah. It was so sad to hear her say that she said, to me when I've talked with her on the phone and in different ways, she has said, you know, right after you were born, everyone mobilized to make sure that you were okay. But I walked out of the hospital and was homeless that night, you know? And I was just like, oh, isn't that the truth?

And I write in my book about how social work, social workers initially did care about pregnant women. But there was a point in which that switched and pregnant women who didn't have resources became the villains and the children, the unborn children or the newborn children, became what we all looked at to save.

It makes me so sad. I know I've experienced that in my own work. I remember when we had, I was working at a foster care agency and there was a call from CPS who had found a child at a homeless encampment in Seattle. And everybody was racing around trying to find a home for this child, and there was not a word said about the parents who were also in that homeless encampment, also needed, of course, stability.

But I remember thinking like, how long are we all gonna have case management meetings about this child without having anyone mention the fact that their parents are there too. You know, I think our society really loves to, to save a child. And who pays for that? Biological parents. And then they are looked at quizzically when they might bring that up, you know?

Haley: Yeah, there are so many issues in adoption and, and that is one of the most puzzling things to me. Like, just not even thinking, doesn't even occur to them, like to support the parent.

Angela Tucker: No.

Haley: This is just ridiculous.

Angela Tucker: Right. And I found myself taking a little bit more like drastic measures when I was working at an adoption agency trying to implore prospective adoptive parents to think about the biological parents as more than just surrogates. I would say things like, have you thought about your child's biological mother getting care for when she has breast milk coming in but no baby to feed? And that to me felt like I was pushing really hard, like being obnoxious, but I had felt like I had said in so many other ways: what about birth parents?

When you, cuz some of the families would say like, you know, this is gonna be a really intense time. Having a newborn is so overwhelming. We're gonna be up all night, sleepless nights. And so in so many different ways I would ask the parents to consider the biological mother and what they're doing. And it just didn't work.

And so I found that I was finally just like being really brash and thinking about. Okay. Don't forget that she is producing milk. And what does that do when there's no baby to feed? It gets hard. And what do, what do you do if you don't have a doctor there to teach you how to alleviate that pressure and pain?

You know, I felt like I just had to walk people step by step in order to produce any sort of empathy for this position, and that is really aggravating.

Haley: Yeah. No kidding. I bet. What was it like for you as an adopted person to work at a private agency and you, you made several, you know, career choices along the way with which adoption, part of adoption you were working with. What was that like? The, the private agency and literally talking with mothers and then prospective parents and, ooh.

Angela Tucker: Very complicated. I think I chose to work at an adoption agency largely... this is right out of undergraduate, but I think my initial hope was to learn more about the home study process, and it was a little bit selfish, like I wanted to learn what exactly do parents have to do in order to adopt a child?

And so writing a home study was really helpful for me to gain that understanding. My parents had been really honest and open about their processes for each of their children, but it's a little bit different because they adopted through foster care. With private adoption the home studies are very expensive, and so that leads to a lot of the perspective adopters feeling a sense of entitlement that the home study is written in a certain way and at a certain pace. And that felt pretty odd to me.

It was hard to go from a meeting with a pregnant woman who was trying to figure out what to do, to a glistening, shiny humongous home where they had baked me fresh cookies upon arrival. It was such a whiplash of socioeconomic clashing, and I knew that I was right in the middle of this arrangement, and that was pretty tough.

Part of the home study is also a lot of interviewing of the parents of whomever lives in the home. And during those interviews, it was tricky to hear parents talk about what they did and didn't want in a child or even in a biological mother.

They wanted to be able to name the child and they didn't want the first parents to do that. Or they wanted to make sure that there were no cigarettes smoked from month three on or just different qualifications. And for me, being somebody who was in foster care for a long time because people did not want a Black child, they did not want a child with special needs, which when I was born, there was a whole host of disabilities that I was perhaps going to have and.

So I, I ended up talking to some of my clients to say like, okay, I know that you're, you say that you're not interested in this, that, and the other. And I just wanna disclose that that was me. And some of them who didn't know I was adopted would just look sideways at me. Like, wait, you were exposed to all these drugs in utero and look like this and do this today. And I said that not to make anyone change their mind, but it felt like I had to stand up for my own little baby self at the time or something like that. It was pretty tricky to wear both hats.

Haley: I can imagine. You know, so many of us have watched your documentary. We have seen you share your life on social and in various, you know, media opportunities over the years, and knowing that you had this job right out of university, getting your degree in psychology, I'm curious, over the last, you know, however many years, not to age ourselves, but how your perspective on adoption has changed and morphed over your interactions with adoptees and prospective parents and all, all, all of those kinds of things.

Angela Tucker: Oh, how can I count the ways. There's so much. I mean, I know on your show you've chatted with a lot of guests about the issues within the adoption system, specifically international adoptions, but child welfare as well.

One of the big things though, that I have taken to my career to this point is to try to amplify adoptee voices. Exactly what you do. But it was so clear to me that within agencies, within child welfare, even at the courts, this concept of adult adoptees was lost on people. This, this idea that there are people who have lived this experience that can talk to you about it, was rarely considered. People really when they thought of adoption, they thought children and babies that need an adult to come in and speak on their behalf.

And that was a little bit flabbergasting to me, to realize that adult adoptees were not, not only not asked to be part of the conversation, but if and when we were, it was seen as kind of an asterisks. Like an extra. And then if an adoptee is speaking to any of the places I was in, a courtroom or to executive directors of different agencies, their stories were often, whatever their stories were, it was always an, oh, that's their story. This one is, most adoptions are different.

So whether the adoptee was sharing, you know, positive experience of their upbringing or challenging or mix of both, people typically responded by saying, that's a one-off. That really made me stop and try to think about how I wanted to frame my practice and my work.

Haley: Can you talk about bringing that to some of the opportunities you've had for consulting on This Is Us and the Jagged Little Pill musical, and how you're trying to expand that conversation to include adult adoptee voices?

Angela Tucker: Yeah. It's so thrilling that media is really invested in getting the stories right. I'm so excited about that. I, I heard from the directors of Jagged Little Pill, which was a, a show on Broadway. Right now it's touring and the main character is a transracial adoptee. And the screenwriter is Diablo Cody, who wrote Juno, and so she has had previous experience writing about adoption and...

Haley: Just sorry, you said Juno and I was like, ouch. Oh boy. That's that. That movie has so many activating things for a lot of us, honestly. So I hope you say something about that. Go on .

Angela Tucker: Okay. Diablo Cody, much like many folks who wrote about adoption perhaps in the nineties, early two thousands, would say that they had a pretty one-sided perspective. In fact, I was recently interviewed by a journalist for the New Yorker, and she had previously written about adoption within the New Yorker. It was back in 2014.

She wrote a story about a family who adopted 20 kids and had two biologically. And her story was all about the parents. How did you do it? Why did you do it? How did it work? Nothing about the 20 adoptees and what their experience might have been growing up in a family like that.

So when she reached out to me this year, 2023, almost 10 years after that piece, she said, I don't regret the piece that I wrote previously, but I've learned a lot since then. And I want to write another story that centers adoptee voices, because honestly, I hadn't thought about those adoptees when I wrote that piece.

So the, the, the saviorism aspect is I think is slowly dying in media. And I'm really grateful that people are starting to see that that isn't everything. Adoption is not just about the people who take us. Oh, thank goodness for them taking us, but it's like, what is our experience? So that was the case for Jagged Little Pill where they brought me in and said, we just want you to work with the main actor.

And actually, I worked with the whole cast and crew to teach them about the adoptees experience in, for both, This Is Us and Jagged Little Pill, transracial adoptive families.

One place that I start when I'm working with media is to ask them if they've ever considered why transracial adoption is so synonymous with white parents and Black and brown kids. And most of the time people are like, I've never thought of that. Like, of course it's transracial adoption looks that way. And I say, well, why is that? Why would it be unfamiliar familiar to see a Black couple with a white child? And that question often leads into great discussions about white saviorism, white privilege and, and how that plays a part in child welfare.

So that's, that feels like a really exciting win for me when that starts to happen because then they are very likely to weave stories of whiteness into their shows in a way that is honest. That honestly had not been discussed before.

Haley: I, I hope you're right, that it's slowly dying. May, let's hasten the dying of those tropes, please.

Angela Tucker: There are a lot of us working on that. I do think that social media has evened the playing field, thankfully, that through TikTok, through, instagram, Facebook, Twitter podcast, that adoptee voices are getting out there.

Haley: I hope so. Hopefully this is a piece of it, right? Sharing our real honest feelings. And I'm, I'm curious, I have, I have a quote written down from your book I wanna read to you, and then I have just like a follow up question.

This is really about balancing this line of who we want to hear this message. Who can change the societal narrative and how do you get invited back if you're talking critically about adoption? Okay, so this is from your book. You say:

"Speaking to large crowds, meet and greets and such are my bread and butter. I feel at ease in a big crowd. Happy to glitter amid an admiring and enthusiastic audience."

So how do you balance these feelings of being critical of adoption, hoping for change, broadening the conversation about family preservation and being invited back to these events where a large majority of the audience are likely white adoptive parents.

Angela Tucker: I smile so big. Make sure my teeth are freaking white. I'm saying that kind of in jest. It's kind of a joke, but it's really not because I know that as a Black woman, if I don't couple a my humongous smile, which is such an asset, thank thanks to my biological dad. I now know where I got it from. Yay. But, if I don't offer my big smile with a statement like transracial adoption might be cultural genocide, then people will run for the hills.

But if I do both, I have been able, successfully to, to get people to stay and invite me back. It's internally the strangest gymnastics that's happening because I understand that I represent, on stage, that I sometimes am so tokenized as like the pillar of what some of these parents want their child to become.

And I also understand that I will not allow that sort of racism and disgusting projectionism to continue. And then, like you said, I, I don't want to be cast out. I've seen too many adoptees not invited to the same spaces that I'm invited to, and they are fully qualified. As qualified as I am, but because they perhaps aren't using, they, maybe they aren't as bright skinned as I am, they're darker, and that therefore that is threatening because of colorism.

Or maybe they aren't, they haven't perfected the art of like entertaining throughout trying to educate. I think about Colin Kaepernick's film, which was really a work of edutainment and how that worked on some, but not on others. I feel like I, I have accepted that role, which means that I can't be completely blunt.

It means that I have to avoid becoming the "angry adoptee", which I hate that phrase, but I know that when people see me that way, they go for the hills. I also use different strategies to try to decrease the tension and around race. Like there are so many selective attention tests online that I use.

They have nothing to do with race, but I use to talk about, how all of us have implicit biases, whether we like it or not, and these selective attention tests help us understand that it's not a, it's not a good or bad thing, but it's more what we've been conditioned to see or not to see. I feel like that helps people feel a little sense of calm, like I'm not calling them out specifically, and that allows them to take in the message a little bit more.

Although it, it is what has led me to create this new workshop, which I call cultivating an anti-racist network for transracial adoptive families. This is a workshop where I'm talking about racial norms within the United States, how to handle race related adoption microaggressions, and talk about the history of transracial adoption.

So I'm talking about the Indian Child Welfare Act and the Multiethnic Placement Act and all of these things, but I'm doing it with just a couple and whoever they've invited to this Zoom session. So their neighbors, their parents, their good friends, their kids' doctors, their kids' teachers. All people who are like in their community.

I've done that because it seems like when I speak to large groups and I'm doing all that tightrope walking, people may hear me and but oftentimes they leave by saying like, wow, you really sparked my interest in learning more about X, Y, Z, or that was really fascinating. I'd never thought about race in that way or whatever. But rarely do I hear people in large groups say, I'm gonna make a personal change in my life.

And so I was like, okay, something's missing. So doing this workshop with the family unit on Zoom, I'm able to use photos of their child. We're able to use that child's name. And I feel like that's the difference where people are starting to see in that session. Like, oh, there's 80 of us here in the Zoom.

We all love Johnny, and wow, we're all white. Or maybe there's one person of color in our network, but I can't believe it. And that alone, that picture helps them understand that they are part of this system. They are not separate from it. And that's the, that's what oftentimes gets lost in the, the big groups.

So I, I kind of have to like shift my goal. I guess in answer to your question when I'm speaking to large groups. And my goal is to not be seen as a token. It's to create some additional conversation that perhaps they weren't having before. But I don't feel like I can have that micro level impact in those settings that I can after I've developed trust with a couple and they bring me into their whole family network.

Haley: I love that you're doing that because I, I, I've wondered right, how many times do people need to hear from an adoptee's perspective before their mind is really changed to see the complexities of adoption.

Angela Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. I have wondered that for so long. And that is exactly why this is my result. It's also interesting to see the, the people, the parents who will attend all the public events on adoption, but won't do this, do mine. You know, and I'm like, I think that's telling.

Haley: No one's gonna see me . I'll just say, I'll say, right, it's a little bit of...

Angela Tucker: Well, a little virtue signaling, you know, look where I went. I did this thing, I attended this town hall event and I listened, or I bought this book and that isn't good enough. Let's talk about your child.

Haley: To prepare for this interview, I re-watched all the things. I re-listened to all the things. I watched the Red Table talk again, help me. I look through comments on your YouTube videos and in straddling this line, which let me tell you, I'm all the way on the other side of the line. I just, I don't have time. I, I can't, but my, but I ...

Angela Tucker: yeah.

Haley: I have a privilege in that I could say whatever I want on my podcast, and I'm not waiting. I don't, I'm not looking to do conferences or, you know, that's just not my calling. Yeah. So that's why, yeah, I just say whatever, and I totally understand.

Angela Tucker: I'm so thankful that you can say what I often hold back. You and so many others. That's great. For me, it's definitely like, I see this family has this child and I want a different life for that child, and so I'll play the game.

Haley: I get it. I get, yes. And you have, you've already explained kind of why, like, so for folks that are like, why don't you, you've, you've already said. When I was looking through the comments. Holy moly. Okay. "Remember, family is heart not blood." Come on.

Angela Tucker: I have, okay, so just to, just to interrupt you real quick. This might be new to me, whatever you tell me right now, because I had for a long time a little print on my wall that I framed that said, 'Do not read the comments.' So.

Haley: I'm glad it might be news. No.

Angela Tucker: Tell me what it, tell me what people are saying.

Haley: It's not, these are not news. None. None of these things are gonna surprise you.

"Remember, family is heart, not blood."

"You're so blessed to have so many people that love you"

And I could go on, but I, I know people say these things to you after your speeches as well. You share about really some yikes moments in your book about that as well, but I'm, I don't know how you deal with those things. And also you have expressed, "I am grateful. I do love my adoptive parents". Like you, you have the both and, and you're living it out and you share that enclosure and et cetera, right? So, Yikes. How do you take care of yourself in processing those things and not being held up as, you know, from, from on my side of the fence, angry adoptee and on adoptive parent's side of the fence...

Angela Tucker: What what...

Haley: Right? How do you take care of that?

Angela Tucker: I think I use a therapist approach where, when I get comments in my brain, I, I think this isn't about me.

Haley: Mm-hmm.

Angela Tucker: You know, if you're so angry that I haven't shown my adoptive parents enough public gratitude for quote, what they did, I am curious immediately about them and what's lacking. I think a lot, some of that is defensive denial perhaps, I think a lot of it is the, that's the protectant protection I need to put around myself, so I don't, I'm not completely debilitated. I think it's also research for me. Like that is one great way to continue to understand what societal messaging is on this is to, to try to listen to what people are saying.

I also take a bath every Sunday night without fail. That is the most glamorous bath ever. I mean, I have all the products. I have my little laptop in there, so I watch whatever I want. It's not a bath to clean myself. It is just a bath for pure relaxation. And I look forward to that Sunday night bath. You know, I have a few other things that really help.

I have some really good friends who, who can keep me balanced. I know after some of the bigger media spots, like Red Table Talk was one, I had a, a little team, a little committee who shielded me from the comments. They went through my, my Instagram, they went through my emails, they went through my Twitter and deleted stuff. Or I did want to know a few things and so they, they picked and chose certain things to tell me.

I know when those moments are coming, you know, I know if I've said something really controversial or if I've been edited in a way that makes me sound aloof or foolish that it's coming. And so I'm, thankfully, I have a, a great team that keeps me a little bit insulated from that. So I can just focus on the content, which is, which is really what I wanna do for evermore.

I don't see an end, but it gets pretty cloudy and it's hard to continue to focus on the content when there's such loud noise, and I really wanna focus on the content. And by content what I mean is a few of my focuses are one, that I feel like white adoptive parents need to outsource some of their parenting duties if they're, if they have a Black or brown child. So I'm continuously focused on that point, which means trying to learn about what it is that makes racial mirroring so important, like physiologically to us. Why do we need it?

I'm focused on trying to learn about collectivist societies and how children in those communities are, because I don't feel like the nuclear family model works in adoption. That's, you know, one step outside of that is, is promoting openness, but that's just like a baby step. It's really what I would really rather see is families really working together. I don't often understand why we need to terminate parental rights for a child to grow up safe, healthy, and happy. And so kind of doing a lot of research and thinking and reading about those two specific things. And I, I find that I can't do that if I'm going too far down the rabbit hole of, of comments that might be really hurtful, nasty, and, and rude.

Haley: I loved how you share in your book about playing piano as well as one of your joys and yeah.

Angela Tucker: Yes. Yeah. I love my piano. I love being able to sit there and, and just kind of float into another space. I, I, my house is pretty Zen sanctuary like. It is really calm. It's clean and, and for a specific reason. It's, my head is it's pretty loud. And so when I can do things like the bath and the piano, it is really lovely for me.

Haley: Thank you for sharing that. I know that there are a lot of folks that listen that want to be in advocacy work in some way, but it just can seem scary when we read some of those comments and just wonder like, how do people deal? So I appreciate you sharing that.

I, of course, am gonna recommend your brand new book, you Should Be Grateful: Stories of Race, identity, and Transracial Adoption. Oh my God, great title. Holy moly.

Angela Tucker: Yay. Thank you.

Haley: And the cover is so beautiful.

Angela Tucker: Yes, thank you.

Haley: I read it in one day. I really enjoyed getting to know more about you beyond the social media posts and all of that. I really loved hearing about your adoptee lounge participants and knowing younger adoptees are able to talk. And have an opportunity to talk openly about their adoption experiences more than my generation did. It feels like there's some semblance of improvement happening for adoptees. We're just so excited to have another adoptee authored work in the world.

Yes, please.

Angela Tucker: There's a lot this year. There's a lot coming out. Yes. From adoptees in terms of books. It's gonna be a great year for adoptees.

Haley: Absolutely. So as the adoptee community, we know. Okay, so ordering adoptee author books, giving a great review is really helpful. Is there anything else that you're hoping that the Adoptee community does to show up for you for your book.

Angela Tucker: My hope is really that the book reaches outside of the adoption world, and so I, I hope that the title, You Should Be Grateful, prompts, discussions from people within the adoption world to those they are in community with who may not have ever thought about adoption.

It is, I hope that it can be an entry point to broaden the conversation. I still feel like we are on that periphery, and one way I think that we can make our stories and our experiences a little more mainstream would be to talk to someone who you don't think even thinks about adoption. I mean, I, I, this became evident to me during the Trump presidency when everyone was up in arms about kids being locked in cages at the border, and there was a lot of chatter.

It was, it was heated there were news anchors with tears in their eyes that couldn't believe that parents had to go days and days and days on end without knowing where their kid was or seeing them. And in the small silo of hashtag adoptee Twitter, we all saw the parallels. I was wishing that there could be some crossover for mainstream media to see this practice actually happens here every day, not just at the Mexico US border, not just with people who are trying to migrate. Here is our very own United States citizens are, don't know where their kids. Can't get access and vice versa. We can't find our parents and are told we're crazy for wanting to.

So I feel like if people can share this book with someone who they think doesn't have any connection to adoption, that would be really exciting for me.

Haley: Great. I know we will show up for you. So what did you wanna recommend to us today?

Angela Tucker: There's a post by Robert Ballard who talks about this concept of narrative burden, and it's a short article that I know you'll put in the show notes. And I love it because I think people don't always understand why it might be kind of an adoption microaggression to ask an adoptee, like, where were you adopted from or how did you get here? Why are you here in this family?

Those kinds of questions create this narrative burden for adoptees. It makes us, makes our personal narrative kind of like a burden that we have to carry. And in a split section, second, we have to think, am I gonna supply like a migration narrative to some random stranger to help them understand why I'm here? Or do I somehow politely, like with a huge smile, say, oh, I don't wanna share my story publicly and risk them thinking we are terribly unkind. You know, I, I think this article does a great job of explaining that burden and perhaps might have just everyday conversations be a little bit different.

Haley: Yeah. Wonderful. I will absolutely link to that in the show notes and it, I think it really mm-hmm. , it does what you say, and gives people back a choice, right? Like you might not feel like you had a choice to answer that or not, but Yeah.

Angela Tucker: Yes. Give back agency for an adoptee. Yeah. That our stories aren't automatically fodder for everybody else because they're curious. We don't have to satiate everyone's curiosity. It can be really hard because so many adoptees are people pleasers by nature because, well, I'll say by nurture because of being adopted.

Haley: Oh my God, that's good.

Angela Tucker: And so it's really tough to say, I don't want to share that, but how great it feels when we can all of a sudden feel totally in control of our story, who we tell it to, how we share it. And that's a lot of the work that's happening in the adoptee lounges with young kids as for me, as young as 12 and, I'm thrilled to see a new generation of adoptees who perhaps will feel more in control.

Haley: Wonderful. Tell us where we can connect with you online and find your book.

Angela Tucker: Yes, I am at Angie Adoptee on Instagram.

My website is angelatucker.com. My book is there on my website and I dabble in Twitter and Facebook, but really if you wanna get me an email through my website or a note on Instagram is best.

Haley: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing with us today and challenging us. Appreciate your work and congratulations on You Should Be Grateful.

Angela Tucker: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Haley. I'm just so thankful for your work in this community as well.

Haley: I love celebrating another adoptee authored work in the world. If you want to read some adoptee authored books in community with other adopted people, join our book club. Adopteeson.com/bookclub has details of the books we're reading in 2023. Often we will have the author join us for a live Zoom call, and then the audio is always recorded and dropped into a private Patreon podcast feed for supporters of the show and they help this main feed show stay free for everyone to consume and be supported by. So thank you so much to the financial backers of the show, the Patreon supporters. You help adoptee on stay alive in this world. So thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

248 Jeff Nyhuis & Amy Geller, LCSW

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/248

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Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radkey. Today we are joined by two guests, Amy Geller, an adoptee and therapist, and her husband Jeff Nyhuis. Amy found herself repeating some self-sabotaging patterns in romantic relationships. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

And when she met Jeff, she was determined to correct course. If you were someone who's looking to have a relationship but have struggled to connect with past partners, Or you are feeling misunderstood in your current relationship. Whenever you start talking about adoption, I think this conversation will be extremely helpful for you.

We talk with Amy and Jeff about coming outta the fog together. They give us advice and how we can start these conversations with our partners and how you might end up creating another adoptee ally in the process. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on AdopteesOn.com/community, which helps support you and the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today or on the website, AdopteesOn.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Amy Geller and Jeff Nyhuis. Welcome.

Amy Geller: Hi.

Jeff Nyhuis: Hi. Thank you.

Haley Radke: I hope that you'll tell us which one of you is adopted before, uh, so don't get confused. I'm just kidding.

Amy Geller: It's me. Amy Geller, adoptee.

Haley Radke: Okay. So you're the lucky one, Jeff. You don't have to live the adopted life.

Jeff Nyhuis: Yes, that's what I hear.

Haley Radke: Or does he? Oh, yes. All right. Well, I'd love it with you guys would share some of your story with.

Amy Geller: We have an interesting story. I am a therapist. I've been in private practice for almost 12 years now, and I didn't mean to work with adoptees, but adoptees kept finding me. Um, so that's sort of really the beginning of my coming out of the fog story was I had all these adolescents and they all happened to be, coincidentally, adoptees.

The universe kind of knocked on my door. So I started to really examine what was happening there and why there was this almost formulaic thing of like eighth grade, ninth grade. Usually girls coming to my office and with very similar sort of presentations. And I was in a supervision group at the time and they were like, well, you're adopted and you should probably lean into that.

So in the meantime, on a side note, as a therapist, I was successful at work. I had all these friends. I came from this great family. But I was divorced. I got divorced when my kids were really small. And I was single for like 15 years. And it was, I struggled and I was like this therapist who was helping all these people in relationship.

And I had this thing where I was like, three months and I'm out. And it was just this pattern over and over and over again. And fast forward, I met Jeff five years ago and probably due to timing and everything I had done up until that point... interesting to note that I had read probably every clinical book on adoption, but I would say I was still in the fog.

I was a therapist working with adoptees and I was in the fog. When I met Jeff, I was like, I, I've had it. I, I cannot go through this again. You know, I like saw the pattern. I think I kind of recognized some of what was going wrong and, three months was coming and I was like, I gotta break up with this guy.

But I also knew that something, part of this was me. A big part of it was something that was going on with me. And at the time, kind of just randomly, I picked up Anne Heffron's book, You Don't Look Adopted. Happened to have it on like a book, you know, a book tower that we buy, books on Amazon that we intend to read one day.

And just instinctively, I picked it up one day and I sat. I had told Jeff I need a, I need a break. I need to take some space. And I was full on pushing him away. Uh, let's break up. I can't do this. And I read Anne's book and I remember just sobbing. Sobbing. Like I had never read a memoir before. And it took a memoir, like a really honest, authentic, messy version of being an adult adoptee to just blow the doors off.

And I was like, oh my God, this is what's been happening. This is it. I'm adopted. And that's sort of the beginning of our story. Like meeting Jeff was sort of like the final push for me to come out of the fog. And so what's interesting about our story is he's been by my side from day one of that.

Jeff Nyhuis: And I guess my story starts with being in the right place at the right time and knowing I had something very special. And realizing very early, as Amy had said about feeling that push, she was pushing away, but I didn't quite understand it. But her ability to start to communicate very clearly to me what she needed.

And then I had my ability to listen. I'm a high school principal now, but I was also a guidance counselor and teacher. And so. I feel, I find that's one of my strengths is to being able to listen and, um, you know, knowing what she needed. And she taught me to communicate how to express my needs to her as well.

So that was one of the things that I've learned early on. And sometimes you have to give a little space because I started to understand that loss that she felt, and she will continue to feel for her entire life, that abandonment. And that became very clear over time, you know, not right away. I didn't quite get what she was doing at first, but I also wasn't willing to give up something that was really good.

Haley Radke: Jeff, what was your perspective of adoption prior to you guys, you know, coming outta the fog sort of together?

Jeff Nyhuis: I'm, I'm almost embarrassed to say now what I used to think. And it was probably what most people think of it. It's, oh, it's a wonderful thing. People save children and it's people, most people I've learned from Amy, who adopt are unable to have their own children.

I think 82% isn't that accurate?

Amy Geller: Something like that.

Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah. So I just thought it was a great thing for the child and for the parents. But I realize over time in listening and, you know, I feel like I'm going through this doctorate with her, there's a tremendous amount of loss by the child, by the, the birth parent and um, also from the adoptive parents also are feeling loss because they usually can't have their own child.

So that is what I understand a little bit better now and, and honestly I'm seeing it in my work too. I mean, when families come in and I hear, adopted. I'm, I'm, I'm quite aware of what the child is feeling and what the parents are feeling, and it's, it's very prevalent in my line of work as well.

Haley Radke: Amy, I heard you share in another interview that you would get these referrals for these like, you know, junior high, almost senior high girls, and then it would be like the last thing, the adoptive mom just would say, oh, by the way, and they're adopted.

So I'm curious what your first conversation, do you remember having some of these first conversations together? Like reading the book or like being like, why are all these adoptees coming into my practice? And what were some of the things that you were talking about together? Because to tell anyone that, oh, adoption is complicated is one thing, but to go to the next step and be like, I think there's something wrong with me.

I gotta fix this thing. It's like you're really opening yourself up. Do you remember having those convos?

Amy Geller: Jeff and I were not, when I was starting my practice, and at the beginning we weren't together, but when we were at a crisis point in our relationship where we had hit that, it was like my body knew at three months, like find a reason, get out usually at three months.

Right? That's the point of like increased intimacy. And you know, you're not casually dating usually at that point. And I just remember thinking, after I read Anne's book, there is nothing wrong with me. This is totally normal. This is normal for somebody who's adopted. And I remember going to Jeff and saying like, all right, I think I figured something really big out here.

I read this book and I remember you bought the book. And I was like, This it, this is proof that, you know, it's not just me, because I hadn't really been working at that point with a lot of adult adoptees. I was only working with adolescent adoptees, which meant that I was working a lot also with their adoptive parents.

Um, and so the focus of my work was very different back then. But I think I couldn't help but reflect that early, one of our first dates, probably not the first date, but I had shared that I was an adoptee with Jeff. And I just remember at that point it was like, what a beautiful story. My goodness. Like, and then the shift to, oh my God, this has cost me so much.

It's had such a huge impact on my life. And all of a sudden, as those of you listening who have come out of the fog, you know that it doesn't, it can happen really all of a sudden where you see everything. It's like the colored part of the Wizard of Oz movie. You know, it's like everywhere you look, there's adoption in your life.

And it was really overwhelming. I mean, you're, you're. It's also like Bambi trying to stand up. You're like, oh my God, like these legs, do they work? You know? I mean it was just really overwhelming and to be in a new-ish relationship and to say like, I'm going on this path. Can we try to do this together?

Haley Radke: I love that you made him buy his own copy of the book. Like you weren't gonna loan it to him to..

Amy Geller: No one's getting my copy of that book. It is marked up. It is. I mean, it's truly such a pivotal thing in my life.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So Jeff, wait, you read that book? I don't know. Lots of, lots of people listening will have read Ann's book and was indeed very formative, cuz she really tells the truth the whole way through. Like it's full of very blunt, you know, things and lots of people can identify with that. When you read that book, what were your first impressions?

Jeff Nyhuis: I, I feel like I lived that book, you know, because I mean, it's one of those things where. Like I said, Amy has communicated so well, and, but it has, it's not easy and it, there's times that are still not easy.

Amy Geller: Jeff's lived the movie version of that book. Yeah. Right. Like I, I play Anne Heffron in the movie. Yeah.

Jeff Nyhuis: But I know how good we have it, and I know why, because we work and it's not just, you know, me being a good husband that, that listens and everything else. I mean, Amy is amazing and, but just like everybody else, I mean, I mean, adoptees have superpowers as well.

I mean, we talk about that all the time in terms of, you know, there's certain things that I would never get from a person who's not adopted. You know, I think there's such a, an amazing self-awareness to Amy that, not everyone has. And I'm, and I'm sure, I mean, you being adopted have, you know, the ability to, I, I guess be more vulnerable, be more aware of what hurts, what feels, you know, like what feels good, like what, what you need more than most when you really take the time to understand yourself.

And I think that's what Amy did and she passed it on to me, and, which is why I think we're so compatible.

Amy Geller: I always think about the biggest adoptee super superpower, in my opinion, is in being intuitive. Right. And I understand that as sort of a trauma response, but it, what's it like being with somebody really intuitive? Cuz I feel like many of the adult adoptees and younger ones too have that superpower of being really attuned and intuitive.

Jeff Nyhuis: It's very witchy. Um, I, I, uh, she sees things a lot before they happen and it's, it's, it happened and I think she passed it on to her daughter as well, um, because they're, they're scary when they're together.

Haley Radke: Do you wanna elaborate on that? Scary when they're together, but like, in a good way cuz they know each other kind of thing or?

Jeff Nyhuis: Well, Amy's told me a lot that the first time she felt real is when she had her first child. So I think that's, I think that's okay to say, right?

Amy Geller: Mm-hmm. Yeah, Absolut. Absolutely.

Jeff Nyhuis: Um, and, and I, it makes sense. I mean, because. Her whole life. She had this wonderful upbringing in terms of like what would look like, you know, in terms of how she was raised and, but she never had anyone that was a part of her until she had her daughter and then followed by her son. So she talks about that all the time.

Haley Radke: Okay. I got, I have two questions.

I'm gonna go quick with the first one because I think people will be wondering as I am. Amy, do you know what happened to you at three months? Is that, I know you mentioned like, oh, that's when relationships can get more in intimate, but like baby Amy, do you know where you were at three months? Like is there a connection there for you or?

Amy Geller: You know, it's interesting that you bring that up.

So I was brought home from the hospital at two days of age. I was relinquished at birth. Never held by my birth mother. I was in the hospital and my adoptive parents couldn't hold me, touch me, see me, other than through a window for two days. They brought me home and then a few months later I actually had meningitis and I had to spend a month in the hospital.

Haley Radke: Okay. So the body remembers.

Amy Geller: I'll just leave that there.

Haley Radke: Okay. Thank you. All right. I didn't know if you'd really have a marker for that, but you do. Okay. The next thing I'm really curious about, and I think people will think be asking about is: you're a therapist. You have experiences, a guidance counselor, so you're both trained at having these deeper in-depth conversations.

So for someone that's not, I think that can feel intimidating. Like, well of course they can talk about those deep things and process those deep things together cuz like they were literally trained to do that. But what about the rest of us? Can you give some advice or talk a little bit about what those conversations really look like and how you helped each other understand.

Amy Geller: First of all, being a therapist, that is my job, right? And being a guidance counselor and a principal, that is your job. But in my personal life, it still can be really messy. You know? And I think people have this idea. I was really, you know, I thought long and hard about having this conversation with you today as a therapist, right?

Because I think, 10 years, 15 years ago, therapists were supposed to be sort of blank slates and you're not supposed to know anything about them. And I actually checked in with several of my adult adoptee clients about like, Hey, what would that be like for you to hear your therapist talking about her relationship?

And I think partly, part of why I wanna be so open and real and honest about this is because I wanna show people like, Hey, even the therapist struggled with this. Even the therapist couldn't figure out the relationship stuff until she was 48 years old. Because I know that that's, I've talked to so many adoptees and so many people are like, help us with this, help us with the relationship thing.

And I feel so happy to talk about it because I finally have it and I wanna help everyone have it. You know, I want to encourage people to do what it takes to have love in their life, because I think nobody deserves love in their lives, consistent, safe love more than adoptees. So our conversations were really a lot of trial and error and finding our way and admitting that we needed to just try again tomorrow.

Haley Radke: Did you feel the need to like prove it to Jeff? Like, you know, if you have not lived what it feels like to be an adoptee and like the primal wound or however you wanna put it, this thing that we live with it, it's very hard to explain it in words, you know? So did you find like you're trying to prove it?

Or do you remember Jeff, any of those times of like, I'm trying to understand but I'm not quite getting it.

Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah, I, like I said, the first, I would say even three months, I think the first three months were, were great. And then like month four, five, and six were really hard. And it was a, it was really hard to understand why she would be pushing me away, but I was also taking it as like, I would become more, I think, clingy.

Like I would, you know, want like I'd hover and I would, because I didn't understand and I was trying to make sense of it. So, you know, after time I, I realized it was kind of our worst selves, if you will. Meaning it was like, it was her responding to who she was as an adoptee and it was me trying to fill that void, and cuz I didn't understand, so I was trying to be like overcompensate. Then I was like, not this strong person who she needed, you know?

So now I'm more confident and when I feel like she's upset or, or there's something up, you know, bothering her, I know how to deal with it better. And a lot of times it's just, it's giving her space, but also being present.

And there is a fine line because I can step away, but still be around like, Hey, do you need anything? But not be on top of like, you know, and, and feel like I need, like I, I felt like at those times I needed more. And I was trying to get more from her, but she couldn't give it because she was hurting, if that makes sense.

But now it's really like I'm very, very comfortable in our relationship and I'm able to recognize the times that she really needs me and sometimes the times she really needs me, I don't have to be there right by her side. I just have to be present. That's the best way I can describe it.

Amy Geller: I think if you're currently in a relationship with an adoptee, and I'm hoping that so many people will listen to this with their partners. So yes, I felt like I had to prove it. I think that's a very common adoptee feeling like that we have to prove our lived experience, that we have to prove that the loss that we experienced, particularly if it happened early in our lives, that it impacted us.

Last year, my first year of my doctorate, I oversighted so much because I, and I recognized my, my advisor was like, you don't need to cite like 17 authors for every sentence. And I was like, oh my God, I'm doing that adoptee thing. I'm proving it in this literature review. And so with Jeff, yes, in the beginning I had to teach him.

I remember there was this moment where you seemed to get adoption when I made it about you and your children.

Jeff Nyhuis: Mm-hmm.

Amy Geller: Right. And not everybody gets it like that. And it can feel so infuriating. Right. But I remember saying to you like, just think about it like, I lost my mother and you have two children. Think about which one, if they were out in the world without you and you never saw them again, and I feel like that was for you, a turning point.

But my advice to people trying to love an adoptee and hold on to an adoptee, because I think that can be really tricky. I think that's kind of what you were talking about, Jeff, is like that trying to hold on, which then feels suffocating to us.

We're between these two pans of glass as we try and experience love. Don't come too close. Don't go too far away, and it can be crazy making for those who are trying to hold on. But two things, I think if you're trying to prove it to your partner, it's okay to get help. So yes, that as a therapist, I was able to translate, right, in therapy speak or to try and make it clear.

But there's people who can help you with that and find somebody who can help your partner. Who can help you validate to your partner what you're experiencing. It's so worth it if you can hang on, because there are moments now where the most random thing will be a trigger for an adoptee. It can be something small, it can be a billboard on the street, you know, or it can be something in a TV show, and Jeff will just look at me and I just know that he knows now, and it is, it's, it's just so healing.

Haley Radke: I'm, I'm curious what you think of this push pull that extends from romantic to other relationships we have in our lives where a lot of us, you know, I'm thinking about the estrangement series I did. There's so many of us now estranged from our adoptive parents because of that felt ownership that they had over us and not allowing us to grow up.

And, and I'm, I'm curious if you have a sense of that, like if that is one of the impacts where it's like, Well, it's easier just to be like, okay, I'm all done. And just like cut and go. Not just in romantic relationships, cuz if you're dating, that's, I mean, I haven't, I, I'm married like really young, so I haven't dated for a long time, but I imagine it's pretty easy to be like, yeah, okay, uh, ghost or whatever, you know. But I don't know. Do you have thoughts on that? It's a little convoluted. I get it. But.

Amy Geller: I think the push pull definitely happens in a lot of relationships and adoptive families are really interesting when it comes to that. A lot of the adult adoptees that I talk to have expressed either going low contact or no contact because there is this, like all or nothing kind of, like you said, ownership or just expectation that, either as you start to come out of the fog and talk about how adoption has impacted your life, that that's somehow you are breaking some silent contract of silence. Or that as you try and set boundaries, it's like it becomes all or nothing. And so I find that a lot of people who choose estrangement or don't choose it, but have to do it for their own peace or sanity, often don't have a choice because it's either all in or all out.

That seems to be the choice that was given to them.

Haley Radke: And so to take this back to your relationship and other people's romantic relationship, I, I don't know, what would you have done if Jeff hadn't come around and like seen your side of it? It must be very hard for someone who is starting to critique adoption with their current partner and like, like having a current partner, and their partner just literally not getting it and still buying into all the happy adoption tropes that society sees. So what do you think you would've done, Amy? And then do you have thoughts on that? Like how to navigate that and still maintain a relationship or can you even?

Amy Geller: I can't imagine how that would've felt. I mean, I definitely took a big risk and I think anybody showing this very vulnerable side of them is taking a big risk. I can't help but think of, I work with many people who didn't come out of the fog until five years, 10 years, 15 years, sometimes even later into a marriage. And so Jeff and I sort of set out on this road together and we grew into it together.

Jeff was by my side through both of my reunions, through so much that we've gone through together. But I can imagine that here you are going down the road of life with your partner and then all of a sudden they come crashing out of the fog and the partner is like, okay, who are you? Or what's going on here?

And even the ones who try to be empathic and are supportive I find usually are like, when does this end? When is this fog, coming out of the fog, when is that over? Like when can we go back to our like previously scheduled programming? And I feel for couples in that situation because I know that we had this advantage where we were like sort of, we were building the foundation of our relationship in that space of me coming out of the fog.

I think it can be really devastating and be experienced as another abandonment, which we feel in our bones, in our souls, in our cellular makeup. And so then of course if, if you go to somebody and you say, Hey, I read this book. Read this book. Or hey, like, this is what's happening with me, and they can't hang, they can't deal with it.

And that happens, right? You've gotta have a lot of support around you because you're going to basically be experiencing another abandonment. But it's also an opportunity for what we call in therapy a corrective experience. I think I wouldn't just, you know, when I met Jeff, there was so much work that went into that beforehand.

You know, I had done my own therapy for a long time. I was sort of gradually getting to this place. It was not something that that happened overnight.

Haley Radke: Jeff, do you have thoughts for our partners?

Jeff Nyhuis: I do. Um, you know, when you asked that question to Amy, the first thing that came to mind is, I was very, very fortunate that I was in the right place at that time in the sense of, you know, and again, I think I credit Amy for the strong person she is and being able to really realize what was happening in her life and, and then being able to translate that to me.

But if I were not as receptive and were not able to handle what was happening, I do feel very confident, she is so strong that she would've been able to continue on and I mean, I, I think that was kind of like, what would you do if, you know, if Jeff wasn't receptive? Well, I mean, I would've missed out on what I feel is the greatest part of my life.

And now, like I said, I'm, I'm really happy we were at that place because, you know, sometimes it's timing, but it's also the people who we are and, and we both keep working. And, and something Amy said to me early on in our relationship, because, I was coming out of a very tough divorce and things like that, but. She always said, you always have to do the work.

And then she's like, I do. You know, meaning, and she's proof of it. Like she, there's not a day that she doesn't work on herself, on her life, whether it's with her clients or her doctorate now.

Working on yourself is the most important thing, and you really have to continue to do that. And it's never over because if you stop, then you know you're gonna, you know, you're gonna fall back into old habits or fall back into complacency or fall back into just where you're not bettering your yourself. And believe me, Amy's tough to keep up with. So I'm really, so I'm always trying to , you know, work on myself so that I'm there for her.

Haley Radke: Uh, do you guys have advice for how to start these conversations in your relationship? Because believe me, it is way easier to stay siloed in our online adoptee groups and chat with fellow adoptees about this stuff and kind of leave out your partner, um, or other friends as you're unpacking adoption stuff.

Because you don't know how they're gonna react. Right. And of course most of the world thinks adoption is all sunshine and roses. So how do you get from that safe place to bringing those conversations actually into real life with your, your partner?

Amy Geller: That's a good point because I think when you come out of the fog and you discover, particularly online spaces that feel so safe, and all of a sudden you're seeing, you're feeling seen and heard for the first time as your adoptee self, it feels so good.

Right? It feels so safe. And like you found your planet. And yet we live on this planet, right? We lived on, we live on this planet here of the kept, and it can be really hard, right? To come back to this planet, this space where we live and translate those conversations. You know, I think part of it is, if it's not going well, try to get somebody to help you.

Like my dream is that like we could actually work with couples because I feel like somebody who's loving an adoptee and has figured it out, has so much to share with other partners about what to do with this information as it happens.

And it is really scary cuz I can tell you that I had two breakup speeds. One was, oh my God, this person is awful, terrible. And I would just like end it and go on with my life. Everyone used to be like, there was no runway out of there. Like it was like, I mean, I would be dating somebody and then I would go out to dinner with friends and I'd be like, yeah, it's over. And they'd be like, what happened? And I'd be like, it's just over.

Or I would be so crushed and devastated and it would be like a three tissue box event. So, I get like, it's really tricky. These things are really tricky.

Haley Radke: I loved what you did about the sharing the book with him. Like that's a great, first, let's talk about this. And I think hopefully most of us are in relationships where our partner is willing to explore something if you're not, like there's other, other problems afoot. Right.

So I don't know, you mentioned earlier like listening to this podcast together with your partner might be helpful and, and starting conversations like that, but yeah, talking about a mediated conversation with a therapist that's so helpful for the really, really tricky things so you can feel heard.

Amy Geller: And that's an area where finding somebody, I think for adoptees, when they bring their partners in to work with me, they feel, you know, there's a safety in knowing that the therapist really has lived the experience and can kind of help translate that adoptee experience because it, it is so pre-verbal what so many of us experience that we don't have the words for it or the language for it.

I mean, it's so interesting to talk about adoption. I, this is the rest of my career will be spent on working with adoptees and around adoption. And I still find conversations about adoption really clumsy in terms of just basic language. We have so far to come and there's another thing that I really feel like is important to say for those adoptees out there who are still looking for love and haven't found somebody.

I know a pattern for me that I feel like I wanna share is I would date and very different kinds of people, very open-minded, like didn't have a type. And one thing I realized before I met Jeff was that I finally made this realization that narcissists love adoptees. And in recent years, there's more kind of information coming out about the presence of narcissism in adoptive families.

And so it starts, the puzzle really starts to come together, right? And again, I use the term narcissism not as a dirty word. Narcissism is a personality disorder that is resulting from trauma and loss. So it makes sense that adoptive families, if they've chosen to adopt because of loss or trauma, that there might be the presence of that.

And so I had this pattern that it didn't matter what their background was, how tall they were, how short they were, the color of their hair, I was attracting and attracted to people with narcissistic tendencies. And um, that usually was fantastic in the beginning because who doesn't love a good love- bombing?

Right? But it would usually blow up. And ending a relationship with a narcissist is really torture. So that is just from my own personal experience, something that I sort of, I got to that place. And so when I started dating Jeff, I was on the lookout, right, for the early signs of that. And it was already different.

And so I think that's one of the things that made me feel like you asked like, how do you start this with somebody? How do you start this conversation or how do you know what kind of partner would be right for you as an adoptee? And I think there's certain traits that we need to be on the lookout for.

Haley Radke: I think we need to hear more about that. What are the, what are some of the red flags? What are some of the things that we can give a pass to, which later on is really gonna hurt us?

Amy Geller: So people who have narcissistic tendencies tend to be attracted to people who seem really independent, don't like to ask for help, are seemingly on the surface pretty strong, but you know, it's really, the relationship is really like a trauma bond.

So the trauma in the narcissist, I think is attracted to the trauma in the adoptee. And we as adoptees, many of us tend to be people pleasers and we're chameleons. We have learned because our identity was sort of, reshaped and, um, modified, we are really good at being whatever people need us and want us to be.

And so when you start dating somebody and they just on the first date have decided that you are the greatest thing ever, and they are madly in love with you, and they will never leave you, that feels really exciting and great. You might even tell yourself, wow, this is just like in the movies. Like, I have found, I have such a connection to this person.

I would urge you to remember that nothing happens that fast. It's okay to have those feelings. That's exciting. But often somebody with narcissistic tendencies will also, they will ask you a lot of questions about yourself. They will invite you to share your story, to talk about yourself.

And for an adoptee, this is great. We love to tell our story to somebody who's listening because our stories are so important to us. But at the first sign of weakness, often somebody who has narcissistic tendencies will freak out and pull away. And often then this results in a cycle that is just probably very damaging to both parties.

But so I, I think for me, that was really realizing like that was my pattern and then understanding where that was coming from. I mean, I think we tend to lean into partners with what we were raised with as children, yes?

Haley Radke: Okay, fine. Just talk about me right to my face. Anyway. No, no, no. My husband's amazing and the, I think one of the reasons we've been together for so long, we got married super young. We, it feels like you grew up together right when you meet in college and like we're still together, but. I'm a totally different person now.

He didn't know he was marrying this like adoptee advocate person back then. Like we were gonna adopt. Like, I, like I've come a long way. Right? And so he's come alongside and he is very understanding and patient and is listened to, God, so much talk about adoption. Um, how is that for you, Jeff, now? Like do you picture yourself as on Adoptee Ally? You know, you're watching Amy do all this like, incredible doctoral research on adult adoptees. What's that like for you? Do you feel like a little bit of like, I don't know what, what's the word I'm looking for? Like you're, you're coming into the, even in the school system, right? Not, not all educators know, oh, adopted kids need a little bit more supports in areas. Maybe we should be taking a little, uh, look at family tree projects, cuz that can be triggering, right? Like, so you being an ally is a little bit different even in your workplace.

Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah, no, I, I definitely, as I said before, I do feel I'm getting a doctorate as well. I do feel that there's so much that I've learned just by being in her presence and listening to her. She did a like a presentation or a podcast for the, is it the Cleveland Adoption Network? And I, you know, I watched that and I actually listened to her when she did it.

And, you know, that was almost a year and a half ago now, maybe. But even then, I mean, watching her grow into this and being more comfortable and confident about it has given me a skillset. Like I do remember one time I was talking to a family, this was a few years ago, and I realized that they were talking about a child who was adopted. Their child and I wanted to say so much and because I felt like I knew, and I kind of just kept my mouth shut. And, you know, I remember telling Amy about it and she's like, you are not a professional on this. You know, and I said, I know, but I feel like I know, like I want to help them. You know.

Amy Geller: There's that beginning of like..

Jeff Nyhuis: Right.

Amy Geller: Getting it. And then remember you were like, I wanted to talk about trauma so badly. And I'm like, you cannot with parents that call you at school, open up the adoption trauma conversation. Like, I am a trained therapist and that takes like seven months before I go there with parents.

Jeff Nyhuis: Right. So, you know, what I end up doing now is I listen and I, I, I know certain things that I can say and you know, I, I also know my advice to them is really to, they need to get help and not just. For the child, but for the family. Everybody needs to, to speak and be a part of that. So again, that's been my role and I'm so, like I said, I'm so proud of her, like for, for, and I do think a lot of what she's doing is cutting edge.

I mean, in the sense of no one's really taken the time. I mean, to really dig into a lot of the things that I think Amy is digging into, and yourself and you know, just getting, I feel it's really been very beneficial in my work. But it's also, I do feel like I have a knowledge base now that allows me to gently help people and nudge them to the right, you know, to get the help they need.

Amy Geller: I love that you had talked earlier about, so there are times where I will just shut down, where I just go into baby brain, adoptee pain. And I will often say to adoptive parents that I work with, when your child goes in their room and slams the door and says, I hate you. You're not my mother and I never wanna see you again.

I will often say, well, sit outside the door because there's this, like, will you leave me? Like, leave me, but will you leave me? Don't go too far. And that is definitely something that I think plays into our life where you've learned that presence.

Jeff Nyhuis: Mm-hmm.

Amy Geller: Like, you know, when, when I get into that place to take a few steps away, either physically or emotionally, but not to leave completely.

And it really, it's made such a difference for me, and I think it's helpful for you to know, I believe that most people who love us, they wanna do it right and they wanna know how to do it right.

Jeff Nyhuis: But also knowing how to do it right, when things are good, like, you know, because I feel. There's little things that you can do. Like even just, every day, I'll check in with her at some point just to say, Hey, how's your day going? It could be a 30 second phone call, but I do think that those little things mean so much. I mean, I would say to many people, but like, I think an adoptee just like, I don't think I've ever said, but I mean, it means something for her to get a check-in, you know, just to, Hey, how's it going?

Do you know what I mean? And it's not, I wouldn't be in trouble if I didn't do it, but I just, I find myself doing it because I want to make sure that, and you, it might be as much for me too, but I just feel like that has helped. There's been times too, like early on in our relationship where I wake up and she's not in bed and I'm like, what's going on?

And I'll go and she'll be on the couch or something, and she's like, why don't you go back up to bed? I'm like, no, I want to be by you. Sometimes, like, it's that space. Like, and, and you know, and then all of a sudden within 10 minutes, she's like, let's go back to bed. Like, I think it, it's just, there's such a strange feeling that in the beginning where I didn't understand all of this, and now I feel so much more comfortable, but I also know that I can't just rest on it.

I have to continue to learn. And being present, as Amy said, is, has been if I could give any advice, that's what I would say to be. You have to know when to give space, but be present where they know you're still there.

Amy Geller: I think that speaks to connection, right? Like we work hard to keep our connection, and I think you have to be really mindful in all of your relationships, but particularly with an adoptee, not to lose that connection. Whatever that means for you and your partner. Cuz we can all go days like you've been married a really long time, right? So I'm sure there are periods of time where it's like, we're ships in the night, or you can be in the same home but you haven't really connected, like made that time.

So we really do work on that. But I'm going to keep it really real right now and share with you that Jeff has been with me through the fog and through reunion with both of my biological, um, parents. And there were periods during the, that, the height of that, which is very seldom these days where I would just need to be on the floor.

So Jeff is being kind by saying the couch, but I feel like I will help so many more people if I just say there were times when the pain was so blinding and so overwhelming and I couldn't even put it into words because it was so primal that I would need to just, and want to just be on the floor. And it was really difficult as I was coming out of the fog, navigating that with my adoptive family, with my biological families, meeting biological relatives.

And that could be really confusing to see a woman that you've just described as really strong and successful on the floor. But that is the reality of adoption. And it took us a while to figure that out. But yes, so I would sometimes wind up on the floor and Jeff would say, if you're sleeping on the floor, I'm sleeping here too.

And then he would just stay there. And I fought him at first, and then over time I stopped fighting because he kept doing it. And I don't go on the floor anymore very much. Every once in a while, sometimes if I like. I'm really stressed out, but there's just something very grounding about that, right? I mean, I understand it as like, I'll often tell when, when I speak to a client in crisis, I will get them on the floor.

I will actually tell them to lay on the floor. Um, because I just feel like it's our, our nervous systems, like adoptee pain is so much more than a feeling of sadness or loss. It's, it's a physiological, biological soul crushing feeling.

Haley Radke: You made me cry three times this interview. Okay? Get you someone that's gonna lay on the floor with you. And roll their eyes when that stupid adoption storyline comes up on a show and you're, they get it wrong.

Amy Geller: And they get it wrong. And, and I love that, that somebody who's kept can look at me and be like, oh, really? You know? But

Haley Radke: Yes.

Amy Geller: But when they get it right, you know, there's moments where they get it right too. And, and knowing the difference. I mean, my advice to anybody always all day is to be compassionate and curious. Right? That's like, that's like with those two things all day, I think anything is almost possible. I think the biggest takeaway is, this is forever. This is forever. Like I've chosen to do this for my life and my career, but not everybody does. Right.

But I am an adoptee forever. All day, every day. I recently heard them say on the Adoptees Dish podcast, I am adopted 24 7 365. And I think, get comfortable, get in it like, except that this is not a rough patch. This is our lives.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for sharing your relationship with us. I think it'll be really helpful for a lot of people and I'm gonna recommend, people are gonna have to scroll way back, but we did a series on relationships.

What year was that? I have to look at the year. That's so sad. Um, 2018. So way back in the feed. And I had my husband on episode 58, so he talked through what it looked like going through Reunion with me as well and like how weird that was and how weird I acted. Uh, and, and her ex-husband came on and talked about what it was like getting divorced and what their relationship was like.

So I think that might be helpful for folks too. That's 66. And then I had a show with Stephanie who talked about when two adoptees marry each other, episode 70. So, um, those all would be probably helpful for folks to listen to again with a partner and then discuss. You can talk about us if you want. You have my permission, you know, um, talk about us behind our back.

That's all good. What did you guys wanna recommend to us today?

One of the

Amy Geller: resources that I often use is, um, Grow Beyond Words is a, a practice of, of therapists, but they have a resource of therapists who are also adopted. And they have, they have therapists from across the country, and even a few that can work in all 50 states, um, virtually.

So if you're looking for an adoption competent therapist or an adoption or a therapist who is adopted, I always kind of start there when I'm looking for a referral for somebody.

Haley Radke: Excellent. Yeah, that's Dr. Wirta-Leiker's list. And what I say to people, I, you can maybe extend this too, is lots of them are already booked up, but if there's somebody in their, in your area that you're looking for or in your state, you can email them and they may have colleagues su to suggest to you.

Um, so that can help if, if your therapist of choice is them, got a waiting list.

Amy Geller: Agree and always, you can always email me AmyGellerLCSW at gmail. When adoptees reach out to me for help, I currently am not taking new people, but I love to make connections. And through my work I am educating therapists who may not be adopted themselves or who may not be considered adoption competent, but who are learning and, um, who I consult with.

So always. You know, if you're looking for help, don't just like, you know, go to the website and say, oh, you know, there's nobody taking anybody. Another thing that I'm really excited to talk about is I recently discovered an organization called A Home Within and A Home Within is a nonprofit based on the West Coast.

They provide free therapy pro bono to anybody who's experienced foster care for any amount of time. And I know that the world is full of so many adoptees wanting therapy. It's, it's a privilege, right? To be able to find a therapist, afford a therapist. Um, and while I know that this doesn't, you know, I mean, many adoptees have spent time in foster care.

For example, I myself, I was taken home from the hospital at two days of age, but technically I was in foster care for nine months because I, my adoption did not become finalized or legal until nine months later. And so I'm going to be volunteering with them as a clinician, and I'm hoping to sort of bridge their mission with my mission, which is to make therapy accessible to as many adoptees as possible.

So it's AHomeWithin.org.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. I was looking at their FAQs and it says, who's eligible for therapy? Uh, anyone who has spent at least one day in foster care at any point in their life. So, 10 outta 10. Good recommendation there, Amy. Okay. Jeff, any last thoughts?

Jeff Nyhuis: No, I appreciate you having us on here.

You know, like I said, I am, I'm very impressed. I wrote down the episodes. I want to go back and check those out, so thank you.

Haley Radke: Oh, wonderful. Amy, where can we best connect with you online?

Amy Geller: You can find me at, on Instagram at AmyGellerLCSW. I'm also on Instagram on an adoptee centric place, called The Adoption Alchemist. I am also on LinkedIn and Twitter.

Haley Radke: Awesome. We will put all those links in the show notes for folks. Thank you so much.

Amy Geller: Thank you, Haley.

Jeff Nyhuis: Thank you, Haley.

Haley Radke: Okay. If you are following along on social anywhere you may see, That I started a fundraising project to help cover the cost of transcribing the entire back catalog of the adoptees on podcast. So here are some things I have come to the realization of over the last couple of years. There are many of you who re-listened to past episodes because you find them so helpful, especially healing series episodes when you need a little coaching up from a friendly adoptee therapist as one example.

And the other thing I've heard from several adoptees is that they have a really hard time focusing when listening. And so they find that podcast just aren't for them. And then there is a third community that I just have not served well. The only way folks could quote unquote read along with a transcript of the show was to watch it on YouTube, which has automated transcripts.

And I don't know if you've ever put on the automated transcripts on YouTube, but it's like the worst version of close captioning where you know it's automated and they spell things wrong all the time. They get words wrong all the time. It's just not that accurate. And so I knew that wasn't going to be the best stop gap measure, and I've been really, really concerned with accessibility.

And a couple of years ago, um, that really came to the forefront. And so I started. Transcribing episodes and I hired someone to do that and we did, I think maybe 20 episodes and I just did not have the money to keep it up. Now at this point, we are transcribing as we go and each new episode goes up with a full transcript, which is amazing and I'm so proud of that.

But thinking about the whole back catalog and how many amazing things of wisdom our guests have shared with us, I really wanna make that accessible. And so we started also working our way backwards through the catalog to transcribe everything. And that comes at a large cost of people's time. So we do have special software.

It's just not perfect. And so it takes a human going through every episode, making sure guest names are spelled correctly, making sure the software has got it right and making those corrections. And so I want to invite you to partner with me to pay for the cost of transcribing the show. This feels like a necessary thing for us to do as a community in order to serve everyone.

So if there are adoptees that are deaf, hard of hearing, or people with a hearing loss, there are folks in our community that just process information better when they can read along, or folks that like to refer back to something they may have missed earlier in the conversation. It will benefit all of those people.

Another thing I mentioned, and this is not perfect, but it's really cool that you can copy a full transcript into translation software and then read it and a language of you're choosing. So I know we have listeners where English is not their first language and they would like to consume some of that content, and that's an option too.

So again, all of those things help bring the adoptees on message to way more folks if we're able to do this. So thank you to everyone who has been supporting the show financially and and allowed us to do the transcription process, you know, from this point forward. And at this point we are about a fifth of the way through the catalog.

And so we have, you know, 80% left to go. And that is a huge chunk of time and huge cost. So our goal is $20,000, which is wild and scary. And I've never done a huge, um, fundraiser for the show. I've done the monthly crowdfunding through Patreon, but I've never done like a big one-off. And it's very scary and it feels, I'm nervous recording this.

Maybe I don't sound nervous asking, but I am. And so if everyone who listened, you know, I'm gonna say the thing. You know, if everyone who listened just gave a couple bucks, we'd meet our goal this week. Um, but if you're listening and you have the means and if the show has meant something to you, I would love it if you would consider.

Substantial donation to this project. $20,000 is a lot of money. I do have a lot of listeners, um, but I don't have, I know that everyone who listens cannot give, and I get that. I totally get that. But if you are able, I would love it if you would go to adopteeson.com/donate. You'll be transferred over to the PayPal page and it'll show you in real time how much money we've raised so far.

When I'm recording this for you is I've just launched the campaign and we're over $400, and so maybe when you're listening to this, you can go and check and see, oh my gosh, I wonder how much, um, we're at now. Uh, that would be really cool if I'm way off. Um, anyway, please help us with this campaign. I'm gonna run up for about a month, and hopefully we'll get the full 20,000.

And I promise I'm not gonna do this every single episode, the big pitch. But y'all, please show up for your community, show up for me, adopteeson.com/donate, and let's get this back catalog transcribed. Thank you, friend. I appreciate your consideration on that. adopteeson.com/donate. Thank you for listening, and let's talk again next Friday.

247 Katie Bozek, Ph.D., LMFT

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/247

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Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radkey. Today's guest is Dr. Katie Bozek, a therapist and the executive director of KAAN, the Korean American Adoptee Adoptive Family Network we talk about the complexity of what being asked for our story brings. Katie shares how the birth of her first child was, what set her on the journey of looking closely of what being adopted truly meant to her.

And we touch on ways we both parent as adoptees with a focus on building connection. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up by talking about the upcoming KAAN Conference and want an adoptee led event with a focus on community building and wellbeing can look like links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adoptee on.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptee on Dr. Katie Bozek. Welcome, Katie.

Katie Bozek: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Haley Radke: I really appreciate speaking with you today and I would love it if you would share some of your story with us to start.

Katie Bozek: Oh, the what parts of my story, because I'm old, so my story could be very long.

Haley Radke: Katie. I'm turning 40 this year now. I think my audience is gonna have a drinking game of where, how many times has Haley said that in episodes this year? But how old are you?

Katie Bozek: I will be turning 42 in just a few months.

Haley Radke: Okay. We're not old. Come on.

Katie Bozek: No, we're not.

Haley Radke: Just tell us what you'd like to.

Katie Bozek: I think it's and and I'm sure everyone, all your listeners know, it's such a loaded question.

Tell me your story. And I think as an adoptee, for me I will answer your question at some point, but I gotta ram before a moment. Cuz that's what old people do. We ramble for a moment before we answer questions.

Haley Radke: You have to stop calling us old.

Katie Bozek: Sorry. I do it cause I don't believe it. It's I've gotten to this point, I'm doing what I'm doing.

I'm like how is this happening? How is this life? How have I made it this far? And, and that ties right back into, telling your story is, it's such a loaded question for an adoptee for me. And when I hear it from non- adoptees, I'm, I get the sense they wanna know all the gritty details, right?

When were you adopted? Have you been back? Have you found your biological parents? Have you found your real parents? All of that. And it's different when it comes from an adoptee. But it also still hits at that, "what is it that you want me to tell you? What are you looking for?" And I think as an adoptee who has lived this long, not old, it is recognizing those spaces of when you are asked a question, how do I want to answer this?

And what kind of mind frame, mindset ,am I, what are they looking for? What is their position? What do I want to get out of that conversation? Are they looking to get something out of the conversation beyond just information? And so I think my story goes right to being able to say all of that. Being able to go through my life, have all those many years of just parodying back, oh, I was adopted when I was six months old. No, I don't know. My biological parents. Oh yes, I think that I'm happy. And oh, I don't think about them all that much. Which is a lie.

And to being able to say what do you mean by that? What part of my story do you want? What is it that you're asking of me? Which is an actually funny thing to say back to someone who asked me on their show to talk about my story. Hopefully you, hopefully I do not offend you by that.

Haley Radke: No, absolutely not. I know that's one of the things that, like the critique of that question is who's asking? Absolutely. And most of us listening are adopted people.

And so I ask it to build a connection with you and the listener. So they can be like, oh yeah, I totally get that part. I identify with that. That's not my experience, but I feel that part and building up this beautiful connection versus the exploitative nature of wanting the tea. Someone who doesn't get it.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. I think there's, definitely something about, asking that question as wanting to get information versus really wanting to understand the process and understanding that there is a process to being able to share your story. Our stories are not linear.

I think there is a lot of going through parts of your life and then looking back on it, making sense of it from a different perspective. Weaving that into how you see yourself. On that current day moving forward and then doing that process again. And I think that's where, when you ask about, when anyone asks, what is your story?

Tell me about your story. I think more of how have I gotten to this place of understanding my story is my story and no one else's. And that my story is from my perspective and what goes into that perspective and that is experiences and information and life in general. So.

Haley Radke: Is this a good point to, to point out that you're a therapist?

Katie Bozek: Yes. Because therapists never actually answer your question. We always have to be very reflective. Yes.

Haley Radke: What do you mean by that, Haley?

Katie Bozek: Exactly. As soon as you ask, I was like, oh no, this is such a therapist response.

Which is, It's a funny thing cuz I feel like I am a therapist, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, but I feel every day I learn something more about myself. I learn more about humanity, I learn more about my role in humanity and where I fit. And that's such a beautiful thing.

Haley Radke: So you were adopted from Korea. And you now live in Michigan, is that right?

Katie Bozek: Yes. So I was adopted at six months and, to my parents who are from Grand Rapids, Michigan, and then I've stayed there the rest of my life. My husband and I have our three kids and we all still live there.

Haley Radke: And what drew you to becoming a therapist?

Katie Bozek: Oh, this is a funny question. It's a funny answer. So I did my undergrad in psychology and I knew I wanted to go into psychology when I was in high school. I was one of those weird kids who knew exactly what she wanted to do and then went and did it and never changed. So I knew in high school I wanted to go into psychology.

I think that's the only thing that changed. I did not become a psychologist, but I wanted to have my own private practice and I wanted to do everything on my own terms. I'm doing that. So in undergrad, when I was looking at graduate schools and looking at what programs and what I wanted to do, what I wanted to study the question of, I really wanted to understand why do some couples stay together and why do some divorce?

And so I just, I literally typed it into Google marriage therapy or couple therapy. I don't even know what. And the program at Michigan State University popped up. I had a meeting with the program director. I applied and got my master's in doctorate from there. So I'm a Marriage and Family Therapist because I Googled it, because I did not know there was such a thing.

And it's a whole different way of looking at people and relationships. And it just, it fits my worldview more than what I thought.

Haley Radke: And who do you primarily see in your private practice?

Katie Bozek: I see everyone. So I see individuals, teens, individual adults, couples, families, sometimes kids. It really runs the gamut. And that's because my, my training is in systems and communication. So I'm able to see individuals and more than one person in the room, not just couples.

Haley Radke: And then what percentage would you say if you want to are people coming to see you that are connected to adoption some way?

Katie Bozek: I'm terrible at percentages and the funny thing is, Haley, is it goes up and down. So there'll be a time where I have a lot of people in my office dealing with some of the same things or similar situations. And then other time, like it'll switch. Sometimes I'll have a lot of families in, sometimes I'll have a lot of teens and sometimes I have a lot of couples in it. Just, it is interesting, I haven't figured out that wave yet.

So I would say right now, I would say 50% of my client load right now is an adoptee or someone connected to the adoptee, adoption constellation. And that's been actually pretty consistent over the past few years. I don't know how to explain it, but I always feel like, okay, when I get those waves of people or clients coming in, that it's more than just a few, I always look at myself and say, okay, what is it that I need to work on? What is it that I need to learn? And so it's interesting that over the past, probably decade, I've had more and more adopts come in into my office in, in doing that.

Haley Radke: You al always wonder that about the adoptees who are therapists that come on the show. How you balance your own self care and work and not bring that into in an unhealthy way. Bring that into the counseling room. Because, oh my gosh, it could be so activating or triggering for someone if you haven't personally worked on those things in yourself first.

Katie Bozek: And you definitely have to work on those things. You have to work as a therapist in your training and beyond that in your own boundaries and recognizing what is your own personal response and how does that fit into what the conversation is. And so I'm very aware of that when someone says something, whether it's an adoptee or not, and I have my own response of this is a very strong response and I have to quickly put it and check and understand where to locate that and what to do with that.

Haley Radke: I'm curious, when you first started encountering adopted people in your life. Did you know any other adoptees growing up? Did you know any other kids that were people of color? Asian, Korean. How, what did that look like for you in childhood and beyond?

Katie Bozek: It's interesting because one of, how did it go, our neighbors at the time in the eighties worked with someone who was looking to adopt and that couple ended up meeting with my parents and going through the adoption process at a similar timeline as my parents. And they, their daughter came to America, oh my, six months or a year after me, and they would get us together. Her and I are not that far apart in age, I think a year. And so we were pen pals because during the eighties we didn't have technology.

So I have somewhere in my house crayon written letters to each other. And I always, it's funny because we've always known that, but that's not something we always talked about. And it, that's always an interesting thing when I really think about it because I think about all the other families who have other adopted siblings in their Families and how some don't talk to each other about that experience.

And actually it's, so I had her growing up and then the area that we lived in, predominantly white. So I think we had one black girl in my class, one black, two black teachers in elementary. I'm thinking about elementary. And then we moved to an even more predominantly white suburb in junior high.

And it just, I think there were five other Asian students that I avoided because I didn't want to be outed that I wasn't actually quote unquote Asian. That's how transracial adoptees tend to feel right, is I'm not actually truly Asian.

So there was that part. I do have, so in my family, there's me and then my parents ended up having two biological kids, and my youngest brother is also adopted from Korea. But him and I never, ever have talked about being adopted or Korea growing up. I think maybe a tiny bit as adults, but not really. That's a whole other bottle of wax. Oh, I see. The wheels turning.

Haley Radke: Thinking of what you do, I do find that interesting.

Katie Bozek: So yeah, it's one of those things that, you know, as a therapist, I can spot in all the other things. I know it's jacked up, but in my own family it's also, okay. I'm also very aware of how much emotional energy I give to others and when it is going to be beneficial and when it's not.

And that's just something that happens in family sometimes, where for myself, I have to draw certain boundaries. Yep.

Haley Radke: I think there's this piece of safety that we've been talking about lately as we, critique the phrase out of the fog and we learn more about the adoptee consciousness model and are thinking of adoptees who never critique adoption, are happy they were adopted, think everything is the best and the amount of mental capacity it takes to start looking at your adoption critically. And that can really upset a family dynamic. So I think lots of people are really weighing carefully which kinds of conversations to have. So.

Katie Bozek: 100%. I think weighing and then I think there's weighing, and then there's trying and seeing the kind of response. And then also where you are just in your own point of life as well, you know how much more to push, how much more growth you as a person need. All sorts of things.

Haley Radke: Okay. So I mentioned this to you before we come on. I may have read part of your dissertation. Yeah. Okay.

Katie Bozek: Oh God. Okay. I do have to preface, that's been like, What, 20 years ago, so I might not remember anything that you read.

Haley Radke: This was submitted for your doctorate in 2009, so we're not quite 20 years. What is this? Let me look at the front date to the grant. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Bozek: This is little, that gonna be like 15 years.

Haley Radke: It's okay. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give you your panel questions. No. Easy softballs. No you were just talking about this safety. So you interviewed 15 women who were adoptees. All adopted from Korea.

And talking about different moments in time through the life cycle of, you should really tell us what it is about. But my question is about a specific time. A lot of them, it seemed to me, when you were talking about elementary age, some of them were expressing trying to maintain safety for their adoptive parents in not sharing the episodes of racism and discrimination they were already facing from their peers in elementary school.

And I thought, oh my gosh. Like we are brought into these family systems as infants or young children to like, make a family and do something for the adoptive parents. And we know that innately, like, how does a little kid know to protect their, quote unquote, protect their adoptive parents from the pain they're experiencing? I just found that so sad.

Katie Bozek: It's very sad and it, these are just my thoughts. Okay. I don't have research to back any of this up right now, but I think about all of the small moments that we go through each day. That actually end up being really big moments. So I think about parenting, it might even just myself as a parent, those moments where I might be, someone might come to me, one of them might come to me when they were little and how do I validate their fears or something that happened that I might not think it's so big, or I might not understand it.

And how do I validate that? How do I know that they're listened to? I always say that I would be a completely different parent if I did not go through therapist training because of how I was brought up. My parents, and I, and the thing is, it starts from such a young age where we don't have those conscious memories of asking questions or bringing something up.

And I promise, Haley, I'm gonna weave this all together. Okay. But I think about, cause I, I have thought about this quite a bit just for myself. I've got three kids right now. They are 16, 14, and 11. But when they were younger, it started with my oldest. He would ask me about Korea. He would ask me about my first family, and he, I'm trying to remember what specific questions he asked because all three of them asked different sets of questions. What I was, I found very interesting, he focused more on my birth mom and being sad that I didn't know her and that he didn't know her.

And I remember when he brought it up, I don't, again, I don't remember the exact question. I just remember being caught off guard. Oh that's not even something that I talk to you about. Or like I bring up, honestly. His birth is what set me on this whole journey of going through, like really looking at, being adopted, what that means to me.

And so then when my second son came and he asked questions about my biological father, and that caught me off guard because I didn't really, we talked so much about mothers and not so much fathers, that caught me off guard. And he asked questions and, between the two of them I was like, I answer them with, I don't know.

And I'm very careful with how to tell 'em, I don't know, I don't make up lies for them. I don't do anything. If I do ask them what are they thinking of? And having those two experiences made me think about what would it be like when, what was it like when I asked those kinds of questions. Because they act pre, like pre-conscious.

They were probably four or five when they first started asking questions. And I thought that's how I knew not to ask any questions. Because even now, if I bring it up, they, to be honest, Haley, my parents, they don't even know what I do for KAAN. I don't even think that they know that can exists cuz they don't ask.

I, I've tried, I've given it out. I and there's nothing. So I just think that was there before. So I just think about, okay, that's, I had to have been dismissed, had to have gotten the notion somehow because kids are so observant of their, of people's reaction. So any slight reaction. Is going to give that idea of, oh, I shouldn't ask that.

Oh, that's not safe to talk about. Oh, mom, dad, they don't wanna talk about that, so I'm just not gonna say anything. And the same thing happened with my daughter when she was, start asking questions. And her questions are, I don't know if they're, yeah, there are questions and also demands. And I laugh because it'd be random, like driving the place and she'd ask me about my birth mom and why don't we know her?

Why can't, why don't you remember? She was really stuck on that. Like, why don't you remember her? I don't get it. And that makes, you should know where you were born. You saw it like, why can't we just go there? It made her so mad, like a little three year old, so mad. And actually all three of them came to the conclusion, I think this is the point I'm processing through and remembering all three of them came to the conclusion and asked me if they had died.

And I said, I don't know. And I thought about it and I thought yeah, to them that would be the only logical reason why I would be separated. That's the only thing that makes sense to them. And just putting it in like a child's mind and understanding that, and then thinking of myself right at that age, like for me, when they were asking questions, it was, this is a very natural process for children who are adopted or have that in their life.

Ask questions to want to understand because they have a child's mind. Now how that gets weaved into the story that parents tell is a whole other thing. And I have absolutely no idea if I answered your question.

Haley Radke: I No, I asked about in your dissertation and about these, women who as children already felt this innate need to protect their adoptive parents from the pain they were experiencing. And for me, I see that as this underlying need, of it's not about a home for us, it's about family building in a different way and Yeah.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. And how that gets, it's not, it's again, our story. How does that become our story? And what happens when all that collides in that moment of a child asking about their family, their first family, and what is the response to that? Is that validated? Do adoptive parents get mad? How is that handled? Because kids are gonna take that and learn from that.

Haley Radke: I'm not sure where to go next. Are you comfortable talking about your adoptive parents a bit because I feel like I was gonna poke there, but I don't want to if it's ...

Katie Bozek: I guess it depends on what you wanna ask. There's not really, I have pretty firm boundaries with them where, people would look at me and say, I don't really have a relationship with them. They're not the most healthy emotionally to do that. And that's something I've learned over the years. And it's something I'm, I continually try to navigate because, it's one thing for me. I never want to deny them a relationship with my kids, but at the same time, I also want to protect them from some of the, some of those repeated patterns.

So it's like constantly, ugh, what do I do? And it's not always like the, there's the emotional part too. My dad is still very much of the mindset of the colorblindness model, and that is very opposite of what my husband and I teach my kids, which, and my husband is white, so my kids are biracial and we have those difficult talks.

We are very honest about that. And that is not something that my parents do at all. So that is also, that's been tricky over the years. Because I feel like I put a lot responsibility on my kids when like my dad will gloss over something or say something more on the racist lines or just not knowing, just being ignorant. And they are much more aware and have those conversations.

Haley Radke: Thank you for your candor in that.

Katie Bozek: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. I was, gonna express some form of, me included, a lot of us are estranged from our adoptive parents. Because for whatever reason, the more boundaries that we've put up, they're not respected. Or we just don't have the capacity to do this anymore.

And, we're just trying to maintain some sort of personal safety and frankly, sanity because it's a heavy weight to carry everyone else's expectations. When we're just trying to figure out who am I? Who am I still? Yeah. In my thirties, who am I?

Katie Bozek: And it's still it's hard. It's so. Sorry. My brain's like exploding there. There's a lot of different layers because I think it's very easy for outsiders and also for people within the system to say, oh, you just need to accept that we're your family and you're adopted. And just be okay with it. And be happy and not have questions and not feel any of the other feelings.

And that's the message, going forward. But that is only one narrative. I think the parents who are able to accept that there are multiple narratives there and that one is that their's is not the most important all of the time, that lends itself to more healing, to more conversation, to more emotional availability on both sides.

And that starts going right back to what I was talking about with the kids is how is the parent able to hold onto their own feelings and to be able to say, okay, tell me more. This is about what's going on for you. And that is a, that's a skill not just for adoptees, but just in general.

So I was giving this example, the other, I'm gonna say the other day, but I actually mean the other month. So we, we moved four months ago and my daughter was having the most difficult time, like to the point where even today she refuses to call the new home, home. That's the new house. Her home is where we used to live. Totally fine. Totally fine. Okay. And there was a day where she was really missing her home and crying and just telling me she was having a really hard.

And it would be very easy as a parent to say Yes, but look at all these great new things here and at the new house you get this and that and all of this and you know it's so great here and blah blah blah. That would be missing the point. The point is you really miss your home and you're really sad today and that's ok.

I can see how you would miss your home. Doing that kind of process is what builds that relationship and that safety and the relationship. Whether it's talking about adoption or moving or someone making fun of me at school or anything else. It's can you set aside your own?

Because inside I, my first reaction was, are you kidding me? We bought this beautiful house and you're not happy. Not really. I totally get it. But it's like that process, that, that skill a lot of parents, sometimes that's hard for parents to, to do. I get it, but doesn't make it right when they don't.

Haley Radke: I flagged this thing that you said earlier that you were like, I don't lie to them. I don't make up stories. And I'm like, absolutely. We don't even do Santa at my house because of that very reason. What, because as an adopted person, I just wanted the truth all the way along. And every time I discovered another lie, be it Santa Claus or whatever manufactured story was on my government paperwork, it was just one more see, this is not trustworthy. And I don't wanna have any of that with my kids. I wonder how many of us have that sort of feeling as parents adoptees who are parents.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. And that's the thing, is like it manifests in so many different ways. Is our experiences as kids and like what is so important, why it's so important to us.

Haley Radke: I wanna switch, let's talk about connecting with fellow adoptees.

Katie Bozek: Yes.

Haley Radke: So what did that look like in adulthood for you?

Katie Bozek: Ooh. Oh, so like I said, my whole like adoption journey where I am today. No, I back up. It's always been part of me. But I really put a lot of work and intention into it after my son was born.

After he was born, it was, I think we brought him home two, we were home two or three days later, and I had laid him down on the floor and he just started crying and flailing his arms. And I immediately just immediately flashed two thoughts of that's what I must have looked like when I was left. Cause I was found quote unquote near a police station.

I don't even know if that's true or what that means. And from that moment on, I've been on this journey to understand. To, to heal, to connect to all of that. So from that, at that point, I knew of knew adopting, I'm trying. Healing there. I was in graduate school at that time. So actually doing some of these interviews was help, was really hard cuz I didn't know a whole lot. But also really helpful in healing because there was a lot of things that I could connect with and what they were sharing with me.

And then some I stayed in contact with afterwards. And then at that, I don't remember how everything came together or what years it was. I started to do, I don't remember how I got roped into it. And I say I use the word roped specifically because it was doing panels for adoptive parents, prospective adoptive parents.

Haley Radke: Oh, no.

Katie Bozek: But, I know. I think about so early in my journey and just wanting to share my story and share with them that it's not all roses and rainbows and you have to do a lot of work.

So I took out very much on, You have to do the work.

Haley Radke: That's interesting, Katie, because you obviously were already very aware at that point then, because I've talked to many adoptees who were involved in those kinds of things. Who were still saying it's all good.

Katie Bozek: Oh, no. Oh God, no.

Haley Radke: As a sense of self-protection.

Katie Bozek: Yeah, and I was very fortunate because it's horrible because I've lived a long life, Haley, not old. I've lived a long life. I don't exactly remember how I became friends with the friends that I did the panels with, but I'm still friends with them. And we were all of the same mindset that no, you parents have to do the work, you have to do this.

At one point, the last panel I ever did, and it makes me cringe now cuz, I did the panels for Bethany Christian Services. Yeah. See? Yeah, cringey. The last panel we did was at a big like company-wide luncheon and I told them all that they are a business. And the sooner you understand that you are a business and you are in the business of selling children, you will do your jobs better. There were crickets and I was never invited back, and I am okay with that.

Haley Radke: There's somebody in their car being like, good for you, Katie. They're like,

Katie Bozek: But it, through being able to do that and to share those kinds of experiences and to reflect. And then, yeah, just added a few more. I went to, I went to KAAN in 2013 because it was in Grand Rapids, and one of my friends who was a friend of a friend was helping with the local logistics. And so we, oh, and then. That's right. Sorry. It's like all blurring, trying to remember like the timeline of things.

I started going to, at some point we had a Michigan adult adoptee group that was started 20 years ago, and they would meet for dinner once a month around the state, and it was open to all adoptees. By the time that I started going, it was more mostly just Korean adoptees.

And then, so we did that for several years. And then with KAAN we presented on the group. I think I presented on something else too. I don't remember. So it's been like all these, like different opportunities here and there that have come along, that I've taken and just expanded my people. I don't know what else to say.

I don't wanna say network because that sounds like I'm using them, but. Like my people, my tribe. Even during my dissertation, like I just think about the people that I still in contact through, through that, but also just how new it was then. Or I didn't have a chairperson. I had a chairperson who had done some work in domestic adoption, but not transracial adoption.

And so even like thinking back then oh, where we are today with information, with research, with understanding, I'm so different.

Haley Radke: I just think about how things have exploded in the last five to 10 years of accessibility and connectivity for the adoptee community in particular has been really amazing.

Good and bad. Good and bad.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. As with everything with technology, and I think there is... what I think about now with that is how do I, how do we ground ourselves and where we came from and all the work that's already been done and continue to move forward? Meaning, before the internet, before phones, before TikTok, before Instagram, before all of that adoptees were already gathering, we're already having these conversations.

They were starting to do research, starting to use our voices, starting to do all of this foundational groundwork. And so sometimes when I see some of these, I call 'em, like adoptee influencers out there who are like talking and reflecting about their stories. I want to just send them a list of all the resources that, okay, this is not a new conversation.

I'm so glad that you're realizing this. But I want you to ground it now in what has come before you so that we can collectively move together to the next phase of whatever that may look like together. How we connect, how we talk, what are the conversations now? Because it's not just our own experience as adoptees.

What does that look like for our children? What does that look like when we become grandparents? What does that mean? We know adoption is a lifelong journey. Quotes or quotes, but what does that actually mean relationally? And for our stories, how does it, you were talking about what is important to you and having the truth.

That was really important to me when I told my kids about my adoption. And when we talk about that, that we are 100% honest that I don't know. And I will tell you, I don't know, because I cannot lie to you because I don't want to lie to you about that.

Haley Radke: Yeah. It was so important. I absolutely agree about honoring the critical adoption advocates who have done all the work for us to join in with them along the way. Absolutely. I want to talk about KAAN now. So in 2018, you became the executive director, and you said your, the first time you met was in 2013. Yep. Do you wanna talk about what does KAAN stand for? How did you become the executive director? Why is it important to you? I'd love to hear all about it.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. So 2013 is when I first went and grown up. And so then I went back in 2016. They were in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh. And I presented on two panels. And then in 2018 let me back up.

So locally there was a group, West Michigan Asian American Association, and I, there was an adoptee who my husband was, has been friends with for years and years. And he kept telling me that I could be on the board. So I got on the board. That was a huge thing to be around all these, quote unquote real Asian. And the executive director, when she found out I was an adoptee, she had someone who had just moved into the area and who had reached out to her, wanted to be involved.

And that is Kimberly McKee.

Haley Radke: Oh, see, I got Disrupting Kinship it's over here. Right there.

Katie Bozek: Oh yeah. Everyone knows Kim. And so her and I, we like to joke because the executive director of WM AAA set us up on our first friend date. And so we've been friends ever since. And and she was very heavily involved.

She was the assistant director of KAAN before, so in 2017 she had reached out and let me know that they were looking for a new executive director. And I said, oh wow. I can't believe Stacy's stepping down. Just that conversation. And then a little bit later it was, Katie, you should think about applying, be the executive director.

Oh, Kim I don't have enough time. Like I no that's too much. That's, yeah, too much. I don't think I would be good at that. All of that stuff. And then it was, again, Katie thinking about applying, all right I'm sure there's gonna be less people, and I highly doubt that I would get it. Sure I'll apply. And lo and behold, they wanted to have an interview and I. Said, okay, I will do this. Not knowing exactly what it would all entail, but I think that is with anything that we do, we dunno exactly what we're getting ourselves into. And so now 2018 officially started the September, 2018 and had our first in-person, my first in-person running at conference in 2019.

And then in 2020 obviously we had to shut it down and we pivoted and did an online event. And then again in 2021 did an online, a virtual conference online. And then last year it was our first return to in-person conference. And I think the, I'm not sure I can put into words. What it means to me, because honestly at first when I took it, it was, okay, yes, KAAN needs a new executive director.

I can do that. That's typically how my brain works. If there's a need to be filled, then okay, I'll jump in what needs to be done, I can do this. But being in this, I hold it very it is a privilege.

I'm gonna divert for a second and then I promise I'm gonna come back. Okay. So I think about my, what I do as a therapist as a privilege. I hold it very sacred because I am seeing people at their worst, at their breaking points when they are struggling the most. I hold that very, I hold my responsibility to hear that, to be present with them during that as a privilege, as a responsibility. I do not take that lightly. I do not think of it as a job.

I don't think of it as a career. I don't know what to place it as. But that's how I, that's how I also think about KAAN and the more that I am in it, the more that I am talk to people and hear people in their stories of how KAAN has impacted them. That's how I think about it. It's more than a job.

It's more than something that I do. I don't think I have a word to describe that, but I think that's how it is for those of us who do this kind of work, because we all do it on a volunteer basis, and I don't think people really understand what that means. Yeah, sure. I don't get paid for that, but that also means that I will go through a full clinical day and then I'll do a meeting at night or host an event or do emails or some theme.

It's more than just putting things together. It's trying to explain to someone why we do what we do. It. It's so many different things. And it means so much because when I hear people and I see people at the conference or get emails of how KAAN has impacted them. It's just like, people need to have this space.

And it's, I think about social media influencers as starting the conversation. Getting people to like start to think differently. And then I think about the different organizations that are providing different cultural activities, connecting with each other, doing, those social aspects.

And I think about KAAN as this is where we have the really hard conversation about adoption. About what it means to be an adoptee, what it feels like, looks like. That's where we have the tough conversations that we need to have a space to have those tough conversations. And I think that's taken me a few years to get to understand like just what KAAN is within the community of the different adoptee organizations out there is that this is where you have the tough conversations.

It's not an easy space to be. Okay. And that to me, again, that's where I think about like how I view therapy and also this is where people are coming and really being vulnerable because they're not having these kinds of conversations every single day. That's too draining. That's what therapists do, right?

And so I think it's, I had one person come to me last year and just thank me for the conference and for KAAN, and it's not just me. Mind you, it is not me. There's, there was a team behind me that they do the work, right? This is a very much a team effort. Most of it reminded me what I need to do and this person came up and.

Was very teary-eyed and just said that, and I'm not joking person said that we saved their life. And that to me, like I will never say that's what we do, but to hear someone else say that, to know that's the kind of impact that we have. Yeah, I'm gonna keep doing this and make sure we can keep, having space for these tough conversations.

And KAAN is the Korean American Adoptee Adopted Family Network but Stacy Schroer, the executive director before me, hadn't started to move toward, we are open to anyone. You do not have to be just Korean to come. So we have domestic adoptees, adopted from other countries. Anyone who is an adoptee who meets this kind of space as welcome.

And embraced. Not just welcomed.

Haley Radke: I love seeing an organization that leads from the adoptee perspective. Adoptees are the experts. This most of the speakers. And what you've heard from Katie in this like progression that you've talked about, the history to having these hard conversations about whatever it is, parenting, mental health passing on what your ethnic identity looks like to now your own biological children as an adopted person. These are the topics that are getting covered at your conference. And I feel like your event I've watched it through the years. I've never been able to attend. I was invited, I had a really terrible conference experience.

Not at yours, at another event. Whew. I'm not gonna dredge that all up. But it was not good. And so I swore off the conference experience for myself for my own mental health for a while as a presenter. But I've been attending virtual adoption conferences cuz I like to stay up to date with things.

I'm always looking for new guests, you know how it is. And it doesn't matter which event I've gone to, there's always so much like how to adopt and adoptive parents leading things and saying, oh, we need to be listening to adoptee voices, but they're still the ones presenting or whatever. And I, you just, I'm just like, but wait, I'm like then step aside, ma'am.

So I've really appreciated that. And another thing that you won't know this piece either, but, I remember after having that horrific conference experience a number of years ago, I was talking to a fellow adoptee and I was like, oh my gosh, these conferences have gotta get it together. What is happening? Like, where is the safety? We're talking about triggering topics and what's going on here?

And she was like the KAAN policy is really clear. So you have all of these safety things built into your conference policy about expectations from both presenters and attendees.

And I remember looking at that and thinking wow, like they're really taking care of the safety of everyone. So I really appreciate that too because we're talking about those really in-depth things. So do you wanna speak to that a little bit? Because I know that I probably have scared a few people from gonna to conferences since I shared that experience a few years ago, which was as a presenter, I had a someone in the session give a verbal attack which was not great. So just for context.

Katie Bozek: Oh, that's very concerning and I'm very sorry about that. And I'm sorry no one stood up for you.

Haley Radke: It was another presenter That was the person that was yeah.

Katie Bozek: Presenting with you?

Haley Radke: No.

Katie Bozek: Oh, that's interesting because like you said, we have lots of safeties and we have a lot of expectations for how people will conduct themselves. And we did have two incidents last year unfortunately, where people were escorted out, where the people, the participant said, no, you do not, this is not your space. You need to leave. And they were escorted out because it needs to be safe for everyone. And if you are not, if you are not listening to others, then we will not, it's not tolerated at all.

And we do have, and that's why I feel so, I'm so sorry that no one stuck up for you and said, you are, this is not right. This is not how it's supposed to be.

Haley Radke: There, there were people in the room that later have expressed to me like we were all in freeze mode cuz it was just so outrageous. Like it was just like, it's just was just like a group paralysis, there's no hard feelings on anyone that didn't stand up cuz it was really a shocking sort of thing.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. And I think there's definitely a difference between being adoptee- led, adoptee centered organization doing a conference for adoptees versus doing the conference on adoption. I think those are two very different things, right? We are not an adoption conference. We are a conference for adoptees. That is what we are. That is what we are about. We do allow non adoptees into certain spaces. Not all. Because there is value in being able to listen and to learn, but like you said, we do have strong policies and expectations that if people are not being respected, you will not be allowed in that space.

We have, and this is something that Stacy had put in place years ago, was adoptee only sessions. So it's a safe space for all adoptees to be able to talk about whatever is going on in the session. One of the policies, even with our technology now and our ability to record and to do, live streaming and things like that, what I stand behind is we will not record anything.

We do not record our sessions. We do not record our virtual events or anything because I want to protect that safety, that people feel that nothing is going to be used without their consent. That it's not just out there. And I stand by that pretty firmly because, like you said, we want to feel safe.

So we do everything that we can in order to do that. How we work is we, for, on our registration, we identify those who are first time attendees and we send out a certain e we send out special emails to them. We will have, we started this last year cuz we're in person again last, or for the first time last year, have a virtual meet and greet with first timers to explain this is what you can expect.

Also, if you're here, if you're going on your own, like you can meet other people in this space. And we also have that Friday at the beginning of the conference, the space for first time attending to reiterate, this is what you can expect, meet some people.

And then there's also a debrief. A short debrief time on Sunday for anyone who just wants to debrief and talk or listen about the weekend because it's heavy. It's a heavy weekend. So those are just, some of the things that we are, we do to try to make sure that those who have not been there before feel supported. Not that we don't support those who have been there multiple times.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I totally get what you're saying. Okay. So you're in Illinois this year?

Katie Bozek: Yes, we are in Rosemont, Illinois this year. Okay. The Weston O'Hare. We are right near the O'Hare Airport. Close to the blue line. Go downtown.

Yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited for it. Although it does raise my anxiety as well, but mostly

Haley Radke: I used to work for an organization that put on giant conferences, like with 10 to 15,000 people, so the stress level of events, it's Woo. Yeah. Very real to me. But we'll link to the registration info and everything for everyone.

If you're listening, when this drops the conference is June 30th, July 2nd, 2023. But of course you're a yearly event and you've got all the sessions up already that people can check out. I God, this, some of the, these look so good. I don't like that you don't record them. What would just be, I'll say that cuz I won't be able to see these.

Katie Bozek: But we've gone back, we've gone back and forth and we come back to what is the safety of our attendees.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. I know, I'm just giving a little, I know bias for Canada because flights down there are not exactly always a great rate.

Katie Bozek: So a friend of mine, Michael Steelman, he is with the Korean Adoptees of Canada. He is from, oh no, Toronto. He's driving down so he drive to down, although I don't know where in Canada, that's a really long trip, but, okay.

Haley Radke: Okay, tell us where we can connect with you online and find out information about the conference while I Google how long it would be to drive from where I live to the conference. Just for funsies.

Katie Bozek: You can find all the information that you need about the conference and social media and all the things at www.wearekaan.org.

And KAAN is K A A N..

Haley Radke: And what about folks who are looking for a great therapist?

Katie Bozek: Oh, no. Unfortunately.

Haley Radke: You're booked. No.

Katie Bozek: Yeah, I think pretty much every clinician since the pandemic has been.

Haley Radke: Isn't that sad? I know it's hard. It's, we can go on your wait list. We'll link to your website.

Katie Bozek: We can go on. Oh, my business website. I'm a therapist. I'm not a business person. That website is Oh, old. It's old Haley.

Haley Radke: All right. If you ever feel like flying up to Edmonton and driving down with me to Rosemont, Illinois will take you 25 hours without stops. Oh. So it's not really quite in the cards for me.

Katie Bozek: Maybe not this year. We can connect and figure it out for next year. Maybe a big rv if you're getting enough people. We want to come next year. We're still in Rosemont next year, have an RV trip.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Sounds good. We wanted to talk about KAAN as our recommended resource for you all today. And so I hope that if that sounds interesting to you, if you're looking to connect with fellow adoptees in an adoptee led space, this is a great choice.

Thank you so much, Katie, for talking with me today.

Katie Bozek: Thank you. I really appreciate you having me on and for listening to my story.

Haley Radke: I had so much fun talking with Katie. I don't know if that came across, but we had a really great time. Thank you so much Katie for talking with us and if you decide to go to KAAN because of our episode, make sure you let them know when you register. I wanna see how many Adoptees On listeners attend.

I am really thrilled about the virtual ways we have been building community over on Adoptees On the Patreon side of things, we have a weekly podcast episode. We have book clubs, we have off-script parties, which are Zoom parties and all of those things. Over time, it really has built some really incredible friendships, but for me, and also for listeners who just wanna connect with other fellow adoptees who are unpacking what impact adoption has had on our lives.

Some folks are navigating reunion stuff. Some folks are not even sure if they wanna search, and a lot of us are talking about advocacy and what it looks like to tell the whole truth about adoption in our everyday, everyday lives. And there's a cost to that. Yeah, those are a lot of the topics that we cover on Adoptees On Patreon.

So if you are interested in becoming a patron of the show, you can pay yearly or monthly. Adopteeson.com/community has details of all the things you'll get if you join us. And this month we are reading Harrison Mooney's Memoir Invisible Boy, which is so very good. And we're really excited to welcome Harrison to a live Zoom at the very beginning of May to talk about his book with us, with our book club, though we are interested in that adopteeson.com/bookclub as details of that and some of the other books we'll be reading this year.

Love to have you join us and your support is what makes this show keep existing in the world. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

246 Dorothy Ellen Palmer

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/246

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Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Today's guest is author and accessibility consultant, Dorothy Ellen Palmer. Dorothy is a fellow Canadian adoptee whose story has some remarkable coincidences, including an unexpected overlap with my own.

We talk about the indescribable lure back to the places of our biological ancestors. Why mainstream adoption humor is so problematic and ableism in the adoptee community. This episode requires a trigger warning as we touch on some extremely difficult topics, including mentions of sexual assault, including infant sexual assault, and other mentions of abuse.

Before we get started, I want to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website AdopteesOn.com. Let's listen.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees on Dorothy Ellen Palmer. Welcome Dorothy.

Dorothy: Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.

Haley: A fellow Canadian at last. I love it. If you would start and share some of your story with us.

Dorothy: Certainly. One of my favorite quotes about a adoption searches is that you have to be prepared for the good, the bad, the ugly, and the unbelievable .

And my story certainly contains all of those things. I think the most important lesson of it is that I'm still learning at age 67, that you're adopted all your life. And so your story and the way you see your story and the way it affects you and changes you can change as your life progresses.

So I was born in 1955 to a working class mother who struggled with mental health issues. She was unmarried. And of course in 1955, nobody kept illegitimate bastard babies as they were called in the day. My mother's situation was even more traumatic for her. My conception wasn't consensual. She was date raped on her second date with a boy that she met at a dance, and I was actually conceived during Hurricane Hazel in October of 1954, which is cool. Not everybody gets to say that. I had six different foster homes and two long stints in convalescent hospitals before being adopted, just before I hit age three and in the course of one of those foster homes, I was sexually abused as an infant.

And that, and those events are actually my first memory. I was adopted in 1958 to a working class wannabe middle class family in the west end of Toronto. My mom and dad had tried desperately to have children and had suffered a number of miscarriages. I grew up in a home with two adopted siblings, me and my brother, and then two natural children, my brother and sister, and had actually adopted a third time when she was told she was pregnant and couldn't possibly both look after an infant and carry one. So they gave that baby back after having it about six months. I was eight years old at the time, and totally traumatized because they had told me that she was my real sister. So I of course, lived the next years of my life when my mother got pregnant with my brother and my sister believing I would be sent back because if there were two ways to have babies, there was, you get 'em at the store or you get 'em in the tummy.

And once you get in the tummy, you keep. So that was very traumatic and very difficult because I didn't understand at eight and my family didn't discuss my adoption. They told me I was adopted, but that was it. They told me they knew nothing more, and that was it. What I did have when I became a teenager was my non-identifying information.

Which is, I'm sure, as you all and all your listeners know, was the bare bones. My mother was 24. She worked as a stenographer. She'd been a Wren in the Women's Auxiliary Corps of the Navy. She was considered bright in her class. She graduated grade 10, took some business classes. Met my father at a dance.

That was it. That was my non-identifying information, and that they were Scottish and English. So that was never enough for me, obviously. And pre-internet looking for an adoptive family was very difficult. There were very few ways to do it. I joined an organization called Parent Finders. They did their best but were of little help, and the birth name on my adoption certificate was one of the most common names in the world.

It was Johnson, so that didn't help. Eventually in about 2013 in my fifties when adoption law changed in Ontario, I applied for and received my statement of live birth, which had my mother's maiden name on it and the name of the man she had married who was not my father. That's a story in itself. She got pregnant with me in October of 54.

Almost coincident with that, met the man that she married that April, so she was married when she gave birth to me in June, and they made all kinds of back and forth decisions, I eventually learned, and decided to give me up. After getting my statement of live birth. I had to hire a private investigator who specialized in adoptions.

She eventually found my birth mother, who in her eighties, was living in a retirement home in San Diego, and then she moved to a retirement home in Virginia where a year later my kids and I went to visit her and I met her once before she died. That was when she told me the story of meeting my father.

Everything she remembered about him. She remembered his name. She remembered that he drove a studebaker and came from a musical family. And it was very hard to watch, the pain in an 84 year old face, because she'd never told anyone in her family besides her husband, who was now dead.

She never told her own kids about what had happened to her. So she did, was very brave of her. She told her own kids and I met them and I met her and then she died about, oh, not quite even a year later, but I think she felt very glad to get some kind of closure about all of that. I think part of what is inextricably linked in my adoption journey is that I'm disabled.

I was born with multiple birth defects in my feet, and the doctors were always unsure if it was genetic, or more likely, but not certain. They said was that it was caused by cinching that my birth mother had pulled her belt so tight. There was no room in the womb. And of course if you think very hard about why she might have done that, the inability to access free safe and legal abortion, she might have been hoping that she didn't have to deal with a pregnancy.

So that's a difficult thing to deal with. But one that I view with empathy for her and that disability to when I talk to her to learn that no one else in her family had any kind of congenital abnormality. It was very relieving to me because it made me feel that if my kids went on to have kids it, they would likely be all right.

So that was good. Subsequent to finding her, there was this whole wonderful explosion of online genealogy. And I was able to trace, I'm an historian by... my first degrees in history and I've always been fascinated by local history. So when I went to university, I went to the University of Western Ontario.

I didn't know why I wanted to go there. No one in my family had ever gone to university, let alone gone there. But I needed to go there. I found out by searching her birth name, which was Mclane, I found seven generations of McLane ancestors living in a farm outside of what is now an abandoned ghost town of Mayfair, Ontario, which is a stone throw outside of London, Ontario.

There are papers of McClane's family in the library at Western, which I didn't know until I went back there after I discovered it. And two of my very best friends at Western who lived in the area, drove right past the McClane farm, still standing, right past the graveyard, still standing with seven generations of my ancestors in it.

So my son and I have been there and seen grave site, and taken photos. And when I went by myself to Melbourne, which is a tiny town right now near Mayfair. I just happened to walk up to a bunch of very elderly women who were sitting in this little cafe and asked if they knew any of the McClane's and one of them said, oh yeah, one of them was my best friend.

Let's go look at the farm. So she took me off and I actually got a chance to tour the ancestral farm now owned by another family, not McClane but that was also extremely cool. Subsequently online, I've found a uncle. When I was 65, I found a 75 year old uncle because my birth mother's father abandoned his family, moved to Alberta and had a second family, so he became my uncle.

He's wonderful and his family is wonderful and been loving to me. And then most interestingly, I found a half-brother who I just consider my brother Don. And in something you don't get to say everyday, he is exactly one week younger than I am. I was born June 23rd, 1955. He was born July 1st, 1955. Obviously same father, different mothers.

We also found another half sister who was born five years previous to us, and unfortunately we'll never be able to chat with her because she lives with dementia in a care home. And her husband said she would've, he, she would've been delighted. She was interested in her adoption her whole life. D n A testing just came along too late for us to get to know her, which makes me very sad.

She sounded like a wonderful human being. She was a social worker in the same area as my daughter, which is also kind of interesting. My father's side of the family, we have had minimal contact with. Also through DNA testing on ancestry, we encountered a cousin who was initially very interested in, sent us all kinds of information and and yet another amazing coincidence.

He was also born in St. Michael's Hospital, the same hospital that Don and I were born in a week apart, so our mothers could have met. Our cousin was born there a month ahead of us, which is cool. But in the most interesting coincidence of all, I named my son Connor, and I didn't know why. I just knew that was what his name was.

I didn't have anyone in the family named Connor. I didn't know anyone named Connor 41 years ago. Wasn't a common name then. My cousin, his son is named Connor. Why is his son named Connor? Because his grandmother, my grandmother, her maiden name was Connor. Just the fascinating, weird coincidence that my story is full of.

I'll give you one more and then I'll be thrilled to take your questions. My adoptive mother and my birth mother are 10 years apart. My adoptive mother was older than my birth mother, but they went to the same elementary. They went to Swanee Public in Toronto. They had almost identical childhoods. The things my mother talks about, going to Sunnyside amusement park, going to the windows at Eatons, being in the Santa Claus parade, all of those things.

10 years later, my birth mother did all of them. And weirdly enough, I was also in the Santa Claus parade. So it's just so bizarre that all of those things, it makes you question nurture versus nature. What kinds of things are passed down? Is there genetic memory? All of those questions are something that I would've resisted, I think being a fairly logical person.

I would've resisted until I came face-to-face with the, with my own story, because there just seems to be. Something leading me back to that, whether I recognized it or not, which I think is fascinating and something that adoptees can view as a gift that we have these two legacies and histories that if we can reconcile them can enrich our lives.

Haley: Do you remember being at the farm or the graves or having any like different kind of feelings I've talked about with people before about them having like this, I don't even know what to call it, but like this memory connected to the land, as if I've been here before or those before me have been here and there's this connection, did you feel any of.

Dorothy: I did and it's a little spooky and I'm a little embarrassed by it. When I was a teenager, I used to buy needlework kits and I bought one of this very nostalgic farm with a winding S-curve, driveway up a hill. Had to have it. Didn't know why. Still have it. Made the needle work, kept it. The farm has an S-curve driveway up to the hill. A red door and a red door. I changed the red door in the needle work. It was a brown door, didn't like it. I changed the door to a red door in the needle work.

And when I went, when I was at the graves, particularly when I was in front of the grave of my great-grandmother, I felt very connected to all of it and it's, I'm sure you understand this, but for, it's hard to explain what it means, like to go 53 years with nothing being related to no one but your own two children, and then all of a sudden being related to literally thousands of people.

Because after my memoir, a very kind woman named Jane Milkovich did my full DNA genealogical background for me and literally now I'm related to some 12,000 people. So it's just bizarre. And when I was standing at that grave in front of my great-grandmother, I felt very connected to her for some reason. And then subsequently learned that she was a writer, which I thought was really interesting. I have no writers in my adoptive family at all. No teachers. And she was a teacher and a writer. So that was also just a really interesting connection to make.

Haley: It's very interesting when you think about DNA and what could be in your D N A, predilection to teaching? Okay. Wow. Thank you for sharing all that. I am curious, so your sister who had dementia was adopted, was Don also adopted?

Dorothy: Yes. Our stories are so different. John and I are like a Petri dish for nature vs nurture. We were both born in St. Michael's a week apart. His adoptive family had come from a small town in New Brunswick called Rogersville, New Brunswick, and tried to make it in Toronto, didn't like it, and when Don was a kid, went back home.

So he had to change from English to French in school and that proved difficult for him. He was an athlete, he was a great skater. I have no interest in hockey. I don't know why people wanna strap knife blades on their feet, but Okay. And he, this tiny town of Rogersville and Brunswick, I think has about a thousand people in it.

And that's where he grew up. And I grew up in Toronto. He eventually, he quit school for a while, went back to school in English, good for him, graduated, became an electrician. Had a family, and again, in an interesting and cool coincidence, we both, our favorite dogs are the same dog. We both have the same dog, English Springer Spaniels.

We both had the same dog. He actually trained his in agility. My son's dog, Tasha, you could not train to do anything, but it was, you know, it was just such an interesting coincidence that we love the same kind of dog. He is much more positive human being than I am. He sees the glass is always half full. I'm already asking why it's half empty.

He is much quieter and more thoughtful and sweet. And I'm a little more verbal, but we get along like I felt instantly and totally connected to him. He's come out from he now lives in Moncton. He's come out two or three times. I've met his kids. They're lovely. And I, we talk about every 10 days or so on the phone, which is great.

Haley: I love that you have that. So in your memoir, falFallinging for Myself, you tell multiple different incidents of what a horrible woman your adoptive mother was to you. And it was really, challening for me to read because I felt so much for you and I don't know. What's it like for you to tell that part of your story, knowing in the adoptee world, we always get these things. Aren't you so glad you were adopted? And you had all these foster care placements, one of which was extremely abusive and at least now you had this family. Like, how do you talk about that and critique adoption when so many people are like, you're lucky. At least you had a family.

Dorothy: My work as a disability activist helps me to debunk disability tropes, like being the cheerful Tiny Tim. Grateful that you can walk at all. And it helps me at the same time to debunk adoption tropes; that you should be the cheerful adoptee, grateful that you were adopted, and trying not to be too negative about anything like Tiny Tim.

And both of those things are both false and harmful. The disability trope and the adoption trope are designed to keep critique out of the narrative. They're designed to keep complaint out of the narrative. They're designed to have no critique of patriarchal capitalism in the narrative, which we need to have a critique of patriarchal capitalism in both disability and in adoption.

Because after all, who gets adopted? Babies that fathers won't acknowledge, right? The mothers acknowledge us. It's babies that fathers won't acknowledge. So all of that critique I think is important and. I guess I can be grateful in the sense that I was adopted. I, we all know that kids who age out of the foster system have higher rates of everything, of alcoholism, of drug abuse, of suicide.

It's a horrible life to age out in the foster system and then be basically sent into the world with nothing. And yes, I'm grateful that did not happen to me. That doesn't mean I then have to hand the adoption system a cart blanche to say everything you do is wonderful. Because a lot of what adoptions systems, including the one here in Canada that disproportionately seizes indigenous children, is not going to get a carte blanche permission to just say you're wonderful.

Because what we have to have is solidarity to say that adoption, the way it exists in Canada and North America and most of the world is also very harmful.

Haley: Yes. Thank you for speaking to that. In your book, you have a section where you talk about ableist jokes. And when I was, of course as an adoptee, taking that the other to another point was all the adoption jokes and why is that funny?

And I'm curious if you have thoughts about that, cuz I know you have a amazing sense of humor, and used to teach improv and we're really involved in the improv community. And have you thought about that? The like stupid adoption jokes?

Dorothy: Yes, I have and I think you're right. I think they're like blonde jokes in that what they are designed to do is to tell blondes, i.e. Women, that they are inferior.

And what adoption jokes are designed to do is victim- humor; to say that they are, that adoptees are inferior. They are laughable. And it's also like what Stella Young would call inspiration porn about disability. What she sees in disability inspiration porn, are all of those articles where they, the young person with Down Syndrome is allowed to make a fake tackle on the football field, and they condescend and patronize them and everybody applauds.

And what Stella Young said was that's about abled people feeling good about themselves. And the disabled person is a prop. Many adoption jokes, the disabled person is a prop. And what it's really about is trying to make people who aren't adopted feel good about themselves. And say, thank God I'm not othered like them.

So it's very complex and very interwoven and no, it's not just funny.

Haley: Yes, and you talked about the inspiration porn in your book as well, and I remember always calling all those stupid, find my family shows reunion porn. For similar reasons. Again, taking your point, another level. It is very when you really look at it in depth.

I absolutely agree that's what it is. And so to go from putting up the narrative that it cannot be critiqued to looking at it at that level, is I think what we should all be doing as adopted people. So we can be speaking up for ourselves and trying to shut those things down. So you've been an organizer for years in a variety of different spaces as a teacher in the political realm, in the disabled community.

Can you talk a little bit about your work in that space and do you feel that it extends to the adoptee community? Do you feel that's integrated because you're an adopted person? Are you able to separate that at all or not?

Dorothy: That's an interesting question. I think I would say that everything I do is as an adopted person, just the way everything I do is as a disabled person, they're, they aren't, you can't leave them behind.

And I wouldn't want to, I think. That's important to me too. In all the years that I was a teacher, I was very proud O S T F executive member and was branch president and helped organize the biggest strike in this province against Terrace, and really am very proud of that work that my union did.

Since retirement, finally was able to write, I'd always wanted to write, but when you're a full-time teacher, that's pretty much a pipe dream. And I started to get published, oh, 12 years ago and have been working in CanLit ever since, trying to improve the accessibility and the profile of disabled writers in can. And that's been a struggle.

There have been some organizations and some writers who have understood it completely. There have been many who hit the right emojis, but continue to run, organize, and attend inaccessible events with steps at the front door, with stairs in the building with stairs up to a stage where they stand at a podium and they don't see anything wrong with that.

And then of course we have the pandemic. Where everyone originally said, oh, we're not going back to normal because normal isn't working. And then once Doug Ford, the premier of Ontario, declared that the pandemic was over, everybody rushed back to inaccessible spaces without masks and I can't get CanLit to consider wearing masks at events. Very few people will, which means they're medically inaccessible to many seniors, immunocompromised people, disabled people. It means I'll never work at a live person event again unless they are masked. So that inaccessibility, the pandemic has created that medical inaccessibility is representative to me of the barriers I face as a disabled senior, but also of the barriers I faced as an adoptee. Because there was just this defacto decision that, I wasn't as good as other people so they could move me around like chattel when I was a child. And now there's this defacto decision that I'm not really as good enough as abled people, doesn't really matter if I can't attend.

So it's really interesting to see that hierarchy of colonial capitalism, which really tries to make me see myself as inferior. And I've have viewed all my work, which she kindly listed as resisting that. I'm not inferior. And adoptees aren't inferior, and disabled people aren't inferior. And, under disability justice, all of those things are linked together and everyone's struggle must move forward together.

Haley: Now I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it cuz I'd love for you to expound on it. Have you seen ableism in the adoptee community?

Dorothy: Absolutely. Ableism is everywhere. We're not gonna blame the adopted community for being any worse or any better than anybody else. . But there is also this notion somehow, That the real adoptees aren't disabled or they aren't particularly aren't intellectually challenged because that's a real issue in the adopted community.

Though people who struggle with intellectual challenges are not welcome to all the time in the disabled community, even the disabled activist community as well. So there is a sometimes, even the adoption community falls into the trope that adopting a disabled child with any kind of disability is an act of pity or is an act of courage.

And it isn't. Anymore than adopting any other child. But if it's seen as different even by adoptees, it's certainly gonna be seen as different by the rest of the world. So we have a standard to bear there that I think sometimes the adopted community doesn't necessarily hold up, and I've also seen all kinds of adopted meetings held in inaccessible buildings.

So that says that they don't see disabled adoptees as worth attending. All of those things need to change.

Haley: There's so much saviorism in adoption. And then to have that next level of elevation to saviorism for adoptive parents who are seen as taking on this extra challenge. Yeah I can see that, and I know I have been guilty of the same things in using ableist language and just not even thinking about it. And in the last few years I've been really conscious of my language, and it is so embedded in our regular vernacular. It's wild. It is so hard for me, it feels to stop saying things like blind or yeah. So blind to that or I've really tried hard on the word crazy. There's so many things and you, you list tons of examples in your book and use some of it.

It's so funny. Do you wanna talk about that? Because it's so tricky for us to unravel, but I think we should be aware of it and I think lots of people aren't.

Dorothy: Yeah, that, that's so interesting. The first thing I wanna say is that people get to let themselves off the hook. They're never going to be perfect. All they can commit to is to try to do better. I wanted, when I wrote my memoir, I originally said to myself, I'm gonna write this with no ableist language. Ha. It creeps in. We don't always recognize it. It is entirely pervasive, just as you say. The best example is I've always set a challenge for my friends, particularly those who swear.

I've said, go two weeks without using or hearing the word bastar. And if you hear the word bastard, you must say to the person, please don't call my friend, Dorothy, a slur. A bastard is the name of a child whose father did not recognize it. It's an insult under patriarchal capitalism. It's an insult to birth mothers.

It's not an insult that you should be using if you care about progressive ideas. Stop using the word bastard. And two weeks later, all these chagrin people who originally said, oh, I can do that, came back to me and said, I used it three times myself, and I heard three people use it, and I only stopped the first one cuz after that I got such a strong reaction.

I was afraid to stop them again. That's the most typical response. Because the word bastard is so completely ingrained in our language as a negative thing to say. Of course, disabled bastards feel badly about themselves or are beaten down because of that. So that language, just like disability language.

"That's so lame." Please don't say that I'm lame. I'm limp. But there is nothing bad or wrong or negative about me. And people go, oh my God, I'm sorry. And then a week later I'm on the phone with them and they go, "that's so lame." It's so hard to remember. And all we can do is try to remember as best we can, and try to apologize when we say it wrong.

Haley: As a, I'm a fat person and I'm trying to teach my kids that this is a neutral word, not a negative word. And that's, this minute drop in the bucket compared to all that. And you say that so lame. There's a really funny anecdote in your book where your friend, do you wanna tell that? It's like we literally can't.

Dorothy: I don't remember. Isn't that awful? You better tell it.

Haley: Okay. So you're asking your friend to review a chapter, and you're talking about ableism in the chapter, and he says to you something about, oh, that's so lame. And you both laugh right after cuz you're like, yeah, we can't even, we can't even get there. So yeah.

Dorothy: I was trying the other day with a friend who is a mental health advocate to come up with a word other than crazy and we were both trying to come up with possibilities and we came up with a couple and then no more than two minutes later I said, oh, that's nuts.

Because it is, again, so completely ingrained and it's a, it is just an ongoing struggle. It's something you commit to doing as best you can, but are we gonna make mistakes? Yes. Because the hold that ableism and that adoption has, our bastard, he has on our language is so deep that it's not something we can just throw off immediately.

We have to keep struggling.

Haley: I appreciate the challenge to us, and you share that throughout the book in multiple different examples, and I wonder you, as you share in your book, you act as though you're not in pain and you hide it from your students and for years and years. Can you talk about that and then coming into, I think embracing your identity as a disabled woman and being out with it. And that might sound surprising to people. If they're like, wait, how could she hide it? Do you wanna talk about.

Dorothy: Sitting right on the cusp where a lot of disabled people sit, that I could pass as abled. I walked, I would limp when I was tired. I would write that off as being tired. And just as you say, for years, I desperately wanted to remain in the fold of abled people and I didn't wanna be seen as disabled.

And when that pretense became impossible when I needed a crutch, then a walker, then a mobility scooter in a wheelchair. What was my internalized ableism? I learned that term from the disability community online and realized that I had internalized the shame of being disabled, that my culture wanted me to feel, but that I didn't need to feel.

And I think that also helped me with my adoption journey. Because I had internalized shame about being an adoptee, that I also rejected and said eventually, no, I can disclose that. That's not my fault. I haven't done anything wrong. And I find that in defending Don too, like I really wanna feel, I feel very strongly about defending him.

He didn't do anything wrong and it's really important not to see him as being any kind of lesser- than. So when I eventually disclosed as a disabled person, it really was because I had to come out in CanLit and say, look, I can't do stairs anymore. You wanna have disabled people, you have to have buildings with no stairs.

And it was both energizing and totally defeating because a lot of people offered sympathy and nothing else. Then wouldn't change and didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing. And it was a struggle and it remains a struggle, as I said, worsened by the pandemic because the medical inaccessibility, which too many in CanLit also won't address, is really difficult.

And the only thing I tell myself is just the way the adoption narrative has a hold on the culture. The able bodied, everybody is able-bodied and the pandemic is over narrative has a hold on the culture, and those are to keep people at work. Those are in the interests of colonial capitalism that keep people going to work and going to school. And not rising up in arms against their government trying to privatize both healthcare and education, right?

We need to be complaining against, about those things and stopping those things, but if you don't believe it's a problem, you don't. So that's the brainwashing that conservative governments in particular have done so well. They've brainwashed the population into thinking that everybody's abled and the healthcare system is a little stressed, but it's okay, but hey, here's this private option.

Just the way with education here will be this private option. That's deliberate. They're doing that on purpose. They, that's been their agenda all along for years to make them and their cronies money. Do the privatization of both those. So that helps me realize that my coming out as an individual, it's connected to that resistance and that really is very sustaining to me.

Haley: I'm curious of your thoughts on emotional pain. Pain, the emotional tax I'm going to assume cuz you share in your book a lot of these things, but you're start the day with only so much physical capacity and at any point in the day, your body can be like, okay Dorothy that's enough And that's it for the day.

And I think as adoptees we also have this capacity for what we're willing to go out into the world and, stand up for ourselves and critique the adoption narrative and all of those kinds of things. Can you talk a little bit about that and in your writing and other speaking events or other interviews you've done? The emotional cost of always having to challenge the societal narrative of you should be grateful about adoption.

Dorothy: Yeah that's a really interesting question. There is a huge emotional cost and one that I think I have shared only in private for the most part. I don't talk publicly very much about it.

For example, years ago, right after I discovered my birth mother's name was McClane and that I was Scottish and I had a clan. An adoptee's dream. I went to Scotland during a McClane reunion. And I was standing there talking to a genealogist who would look up your family on the spot for you.

And I explained I just happened to say, oh, my birth mother is McClain. And he looked up at me and he went, your birth mother. Then you weren't a real McClain, aren't you? And I just rose and I turned away and I went back to my hotel and cried for literally two days. Because the this, to finally have that identity and to have somebody so cruelly and so casually hurt me like that, the emotional cost of that was horrendous.

It's tainted the whole visit. And I think that's, I'm almost crying now. I think that it's, something that people who aren't adopted don't understand that there can be moments that just sideswipe you and knock you to the ground and take all the stuffing out of you. Like the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

You're just done. You're done. And having to fight all the time on every front, on the disability front and the adoption front is exhausting. Luckily, I guess luckily I'm combative by nature and had lots of training in my union and try not to take it personally. But you're right, it's still completely exhausting at times.

Haley: As you say this, you're combative by nature. I thought about several points in your book where you share some things that you do that I'm like, oh, I don't know if I could do that, cuz I'm a chronic people pleaser. Do you know what I mean? Maybe you don't relate to that anymore since you've had that trained out of you, or have you always been one to say it like it is?

Dorothy: I've always been one to think it like it is. When I was a little girl, I was so busy trying to please my mother and so afraid that, that anything I'd say was wrong, that I didn't speak up for myself then. And maybe I've spent the rest of my life making up for that. My kids would say that might be true.

But I also think there's a real truth to getting a certain age where you just don't give a cluck anymore. You're quite prepared as a senior woman to say exactly what you think, because why not? At that point? And I sleep better having said what I really think, rather than going to bed at night and wishing I'd been clearer or more direct.

So there are some benefits to being, clearly outspoken. I also think about it sometimes that, how do you convince people? I don't believe you convince people by being nice. I really don't believe that. I believe that some stand of change is made by someone. I call it an alphabet argument. That if somebody wants this population is sitting at a G or an H and you wanna move them to M, down the alphabet, you've actually gotta go, not just to M, you've gotta go to P Q R S T, and then they feel comfortable moving along to M, right?

You've gotta create space for people to move into, to be able to feel comfortable. So I'm quite prepared to be the Malcolm X, of the disability movement because I think that then makes lots of room for people to be like Martin Luther King, the more public image, I guess you could say of the kind of change that the Civil Rights movement wanted.

So I guess it's for all those things I, sometimes I think I go too far and sometimes I think I don't go far enough. And I guess that's a good balance.

Haley: You share in your book. We're gonna do recommended resources right away. I have a little coincidence of our own here. Coming up, you're share in your book about all of these different things that you've taught your students over the years, anti-racism, work included, and talking about inclusion for the L G B T Q community, years ahead of where the rest of us caught up.

So I know that you've been doing that work for a really long time. Okay, Dorothy, here is our little coincidence. And when I tell you I giggled so hard when I read this in your book, I grew up in La Crête.

Dorothy: Oh my god.

Haley: I know everyone else is I don't, okay. I don't get it. So I was born in Edmonton. And adopted by a couple who were teachers. And so they taught almost their whole career in La Crête. And so I was a teacher's kid up there. And you spent one year of your teaching career, I think your first year if I was doing the math correctly in La Crête.

And when I tell people about La Crête, like they don't believe me cuz it's a weird spot. So when I was like, okay, Dorothy will get it.

Dorothy: I'm astounded. I have never met anyone from La Crête. Now what years were you and they there?

Haley: You taught in 83 there and I was born in 83, so I didn't move there until 86 and I left when I graduated high school in 2001.

Dorothy: Now, did your parents teach high school or grade or elementary school? What did they teach?

Haley: Elementary.

Dorothy: So they knew my colleagues. Isn't that interesting?

Haley: Okay. Let's dish after briefly so we don't name names publicly, but there you go. That's our little unique connection. You and I. Let me tell you, I hope everyone gets your book Falling for Myself. I laughed out loud. I'm like, I can't remember the last book I was laughing out loud, not just at the La Crête thing. There was a whole chapter, I cackled all the way through. And then I felt bad about it cuz then I was like, wow, to live this must not have been funny. But yeah, it's... I love how you weave the hard with the humor, with the challenges to us about really focusing in on what it is like in the world.

And how we can change it to include everyone. And I just really appreciated those challenges. And I also saw that you've written a few other fiction books and they didn't get here fast enough, but I'm really excited to read your other work. But yes, Falling for Myself.

Do you wanna talk about a little bit about writing it and what that took out of you to share some of those really personal things with anyone?

Dorothy: I decided after the death of Stella Young, who I had so much admiration for as a disabled activist, and she encouraged us all to tell our stories. I decided after that, that I reluctantly wanted to tell mine because I can fight publicly for any cause, but I'm a private person about my own. So I'm not a likely candidate to write a memoir.

However, I decided that the way in which adoption and disability were interwoven in my story could really be interesting and helpful to other people. So I thought that it was important to do it for that reason, and I had I, I did this sort of, put it in. Look at that. That's hilarious.

Haley: I'm showing her all my tabs in the book

Dorothy: That's a very great compliment. Thank you . I wrote it by the, put it in, take it out method. I would put something in and go, oh my God, I'm embarrassed. I'd take it out and then I put it back in. Oh my God, I'm embarrassed. And then I put it back in because I realized embarrassment is why it had to stay.

So that's, that was the process of writing it. I think I told enough to still feel that some of the things that are, that I didn't tell, I can keep. But I told enough that the world understands. And I think that was the balance.

Haley: I truly enjoyed reading it and getting to know you. Like I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like I know you.

So that is like for me, such a great memoir when you're like, oh, could we be friends maybe?

Dorothy: Sure.

Haley: What do you wanna recommend to us, dorothy,

Dorothy: I'm gonna recommend something a little bit off center. I'm gonna recommend the movie Crip Camp for two reasons. One, because it was the beginning of the disability activist movement, and it's a story of a bunch of teenagers at a camp in upstate New York for disabled kids.

And as an adoptee watching that, so many things that they say about themselves, about the way society treats them, about the way they've decided not to accept that treatment eventually slowly is so dovetails the experience of adoption and disability. And the second reason is that, It was the sort of birthplace of the activists of the activism of Judith Heumann.

Judy was a leading disability activist that we just lost a couple weeks ago. And she was involved in every piece of American legislation about disability. She was Obama's first special advisor on disability, a really important disability activist. To pay tribute to her and to pay tribute to the way those two struggles intersect, I'm gonna recommend the movie Crip Camp.

Haley: Thank you. Appreciate that. I haven't seen it yet, and I will do that very soon, I'm sure. Okay, so if people wanna check out your book, Falling for Myself, if they wanna connect with you, where's the best place to do that?

Dorothy: On both Facebook and Twitter. I've lost a lot of faith in social media lately for obvious reasons. But anybody wants to try to find me there. I'm just under my own name, so easy to do.

Haley: Okay, perfect. We'll link to that in the show notes. And you also recently wrote this article about finding your brother, and I'll link to that as well. And that's actually how I first found you. So, the incredible story of finding my brother in my sixties.

Dorothy: Yeah, Broadview has been very kind to me. I've written both disability activist articles and adoption articles in Broadview and that one about finding my brother Don at that late age has been a real gift.

Haley: Yeah, I bet you've had lots of people connecting with you about it. Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us, Dorothy.

For challenging us a little today, and I hope that folks will read your book.

Dorothy: Thank you. It was delightful to be here with you and your listeners.

Haley: Okay, so if you are a little bit of a geography nerd, La Crête is this tiny little town. When I grew up there, it was called a hamlet and after our call, our recording, Dorothy and I got off and she expressed to me, I don't know if your listeners will get it, how strange, a coincidence that is because La Crête is so unbelievably small.

I know it's bigger than when I grew up there. I think they have a traffic light now. I think Main Street has two lanes, but it's been a while. So anyway, I was really delighted that we had that little quirky overlap, because believe me there are lots of people who have heard of it cuz it's a strange place. But there's not very many people who have lived there.

So anyway, that was just like, that's my little nerdy Canadian moment. I hope that you grab falling for myself and read more from Dorothy. She goes a lot more in depth than we were able to get to in the interview about ableism and how harmful it is and how we can really be more mindful of both our language and accessibility for events and all the things.

So I have been working to transcribe the back catalog of our show and have transcriptions live for every single episode as soon as they're released, and I'm really thankful for those of you that have been donate donating towards that project. Thank you. That is one way adoptees on, is trying to be more accessible.

And it's cool to have transcripts because if can't hear us talk, or if it's challenging, you can, read along while you're listening. Or folks that English isn't their first language, you can actually copy the transcription into Google Translate and get a pretty remarkable translation.

So I really appreciate that can also lend itself to more people around the world to hear from adoptee voices. So that's a bonus. Anyway, I really think Dorothy is so funny, and I loved learning from her. I hope you did. Thank you so much for listening, and let's talk again next Friday.

245 Mary Gauthier

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/245

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Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radkey. What can I say about today's guest? She is an iconic songwriter, Grammy nominated folk artist, an outspoken adoptee advocate, Mary Gauthier. Mary's first book, Saved By A Song, the Art and Healing Power of Songwriting is a nurturing exploration of how sharing our stories can be a healing experience.

Her 2010 album, The Foundling, has become a soundtrack for many of us as we've grieved and processed our own adoptee stories. Mary and I talk about her path to songwriting, how important adoptee community is to her, and the power of story to overcome trauma. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, AdopteesOn.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, the Iconic Mary Gauthier. Welcome, Mary.

Mary Gauthier: Hey, thanks. Thanks. It's great to be with you today. Thanks for having me.

Haley: I would love it if you would share some of your story with us. I know lots of folks know you, but for those who are new to you some of your adoption story and how you came to songwriting.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah, my story is long now. I'm, I'll be 61 March 11th. My adoption story is one of discovery. I was adopted at about a year old and it was something that was never kept from me.

I always knew I was an adoptee in a time when a lot of, a lot of adoptees weren't even told that they were adoptees. I came from St. Vincent's in New Orleans on Magazine Street. It was a home for un unmarried women, Catholic women. It was a Catholic adoption agency, or I don't even think it was an agency.

It was the Catholic Church running a, they called it an orphanage, which to me is always, never really fit well in my mouth, given the fact that I have four parents. I'm not an orphan. But the award orphan was used around the St. Vincent's and women in infants asylum. So I was adopted at a year old.

And I really didn't start trying to understand the impact of that until my fifties. I had a lot of struggle with drugs and alcohol. I had a lot of struggle with relationships that didn't last. And with with curiosity on my side and the guitar in my hand, I started using my talent, I guess for songwriting to use, use it to answer some of the questions.

And I wrote a whole record around my adoption story called The Foundling, and that necessitated me doing some really deep thinking around it and a lot of research and reading. Through a series of events that really wasn't something that I decided, I ended up back at St. Vincent's. I was brought there when I played a show in New Orleans by the show promoter.

And I didn't. I never thought of going back there as an adult. I didn't even think it was a place. I didn't know anything about it or wasn't curious or rather,_ and_ wasn't curious. I didn't have an need to go back there or see it or nothing like that. But I ended up back there and that opened this whole thing that led to writing these songs around what I'd call the Primal Wound after Nancy Verrier's classic book.

Haley: I know that you, once you started diving into adoption things that you spoke at the AAC and you got to meet Betty Jean Lifton.

Mary Gauthier: I did.

Haley: What was that like for us? Newer to the community?

Mary Gauthier: Yeah. Nancy Verrier was at that conference and I got to sit with her for a while and she came to my keynote address and I didn't really speak, I just played every song on the record that was my keynote address. I played it live, which was emotionally intense, obviously, and liberating for many.

And Betty Jean Lifton came to a show that I did in New York City before she passed away and I got to meet her. She was a radiant, beautiful woman whom I, when I met her, I was of starstruck. Read all of her books and really. Appreciated her pioneering work around adoption trauma and the consequences of secrets and lies. So yeah, I met our, I think two female heroes for those who have chosen to do some of the work. Especially I think my generation. I think this story's very different every decade around adoption, as I'm sure your show explores in depth. But for my generation, what really wasn't spoken about and Nancy Verrier and Betty Jean Lifton were the two women who not only wrote about it, but they spoke about it constantly.

And they really created the opening for us to have conversations around this that we were questioning. And I think it led to changes in laws and is still leading to adoptees getting their rights around their own birth certificate. They changed the world and I think that their work is monumental.

Haley: And so from my perspective, you're carrying on that work and that legacy. And I know the album, The Foundling has been profound and healing for so many of us. Can you talk about what it's like to be in the public eye and speaking critically about adoption in an industry where there are so many celebrities who are adoptive parents and who continue to glorify adoption and don't talk about the hard sign of it.

Has that cost you anything? Has there been any regrets on your part of speaking out your truth in that area?

Mary Gauthier: No, not a single regret. In fact, I think if I didn't do it. I let's, let me rephrase that. I had to do it, I had to do it to save my own life. I was drowning in things I didn't understand.

Why didn't my relationships work? Why did I become an alcoholic and an addict at age 12? 13. What was going on inside of me that made me different? And what was this pain? I felt sometimes when I was sleeping, like I was falling through space, untethered eternally, the horror of untetheredness.

I had to get it sorted. I talk a lot about using music and song as a transformative medium, and for me, I think writing the fouling was a lifesaver, literally a lifesaver. I think once we tell our story in an honest way, and if we do it through writing it, speaking it, singing it. We start to have agency in a way we didn't have before.

It gives us some power and if people don't like it, th that, that to me is honest to God, not something I can internalize. I have to like it and I have to be proud of the work that I do around it. Yeah the true story is not something people want to hear. They want the Disney version. They want the the consensus version, which is still a myth in many ways.

They want the cleaned up. It's it's easy version and it's not easy. And I've had people say the damnedest things to me after I play these songs, and it is almost as if I've startled them and they need to regurgitate what they've been told rather than search for what they think. Really, and I see that in their eyes that I've created a deep confusion. And so I don't rebut anything. But I stand by my work and I stand by my songs, and I will, I won't be silenced because I think that the more we speak, the more the real story gets out there. And the real story around adoption is trauma, period.

Haley: Thank you for saying so. Yes, I agree. I've, I read your book. It's so good. Loved Saving by Saved by a Song,

Mary Gauthier: Thank you.

Haley: The Art and Healing Power of Songwriting. And in it, you share, that you toured with The Foundling, and you played the songs and as you just said it's it healed something in you to write them, but just playing it over and over you're bringing up the most traumatic thing that has happened in an adoptee's life, right? The separation from our genetic connections. And what was it like to, decide to put that away and decide you're not gonna perform those songs anymore, but then write your story on paper for, again, the masses to read?

Mary Gauthier: What a great question. This is awesome. This. Type of questioning is so beautiful and I don't get it very often. So writing it into songs that I sang for about a year and then I really don't sing anymore was part of my healing. It was naming it. Claiming it. Owning it. And then doing the best I can to let it go.

This happened. It shaped me. I was wounded, but I don't have to spend the rest of my life limping. What I can do is find strength in the telling. And so I don't need to tell it over and over again. I need to tell it till it makes sense to me. And then let it go. And then I was asked to write this book and writing long form around the story was a different experience than writing songs.

In the songs, some of it was fictionalized. I didn't feel compelled to have to write exactly what happened. In fact, a song that does that is usually pretty boring. So in songs the fictionalization freed me in some ways to make it a story about all of us. In the book, I got into the particulars of my own story because it was partially a memoir, and that liberated me as well, so that I could look back over the story of my life and say if that hadn't happened, this wouldn't have happened.

And if this wouldn't have happened, I wouldn't have been given this thing that I really cherish. And I think that writing it long form really was an addition to the healing of writing the songs around it. It, it alchemizes it in a different way. I think if we're drowning, we've gotta find a lot of different kind of life jackets.

And for me, they're, both of the art forms long form and song, were were driven by this thing inside of me that needed to be shown the light. The healing light of truth. It really strengthened me. It took some of the weight out of the sorrow.

Haley: When you think about processing your adoption trauma, and you said you came to it in your fifties.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah.

Haley: How did that impact your relationship with your friends, your adoptive family? Did it? I know I'm turning 40 this year, and as I get older, I just don't care anymore. And I just say what I think. There's that freedom in aging and, but opening up our adoption wounds and seeing those hard things out loud can have a steep cost to our relationship. Are you willing to share a little bit about that?

Mary Gauthier: Yeah. The honest truth is I haven't talked to him about. I don't know if they liked it or not. I don't even know if they listened. They don't follow along with my art. I'm not sure they read my book. And that when I was younger really mattered to me that they didn't really listen.

And today it's yeah, I've got a lot of friends that don't read my book or listen to my songs and that my family is not invested in my art is fine with me. I, what I did do, though, is take care. When I wrote. I took real care, not to blame or to not to what I wanted to do, and what I did do is keep the focus on myself.

I have no understanding of their understanding. I don't know what they understand about what adoption did to me. We don't talk about it that much. My mom didn't, my birth mother and I met once on the phone. So when I say my mom, I mean my adoptive mom. My, my adoptive mom didn't tell me I was catatonic when I was adopted until I was 48 years old.

She didn't tell me I was catatonic. She didn't think it mattered. All she thought was that after a little bit of time being held by her, I started to respond. And so she figured, why, tell why, why tell Mary that. I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. If you'd had told me, ah, nevermind, there's no point in going down that road because she doesn't understand.

So in some ways these conversations, I just don't have 'em with these people. I just don't. I have 'em with people like you cuz you get it.

Haley: There's a safety in the knowing. Yeah. And I think for myself, like I try to express the, we're different. We're, we're not getting it and because they didn't catch on to any of those things, it's oh, maybe it's not safe to say things that are even harder than just that.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah. And maybe that's just not the right people to have the conversation with. They're understanding. And my understanding very different. And it's not like I need them to see it my way. What I need to do is articulate how I see it so I can then find what I need to help me heal.

Whether they see it my way or not has no impact on whether I heal. I didn't know that when I was young. They can see it however they wanna see it. I'm the one who needs to articulate my truth uncensored so that I can then reach for what it is that I need.

Haley: Oh god. That sounds like that comes from such an empowered place like, Respect. That takes a lot of work to get to a point like that. Have you noticed in doing interviews and press for, I'm gonna compare it, so the release of The Foundling and then the release of Saved by a Song, has there been any improvement in the questions you get from folks meaning, like, prying into your adoption things.

Often when I talk to people that are in the public eye, they're always getting questions like, yeah, what did your adoptive family think of that? Or, those kinds of things. And it feels so obtuse cuz it's what about me? It's my thing. Ask me about me. Have you noticed any shift in the conversation over 10 years?

Mary Gauthier: Not really. I don't think so. I think discussion discussions around adoption and trauma are nuclear, and I think people will go outta their way to avoid them. When we talk, and I talked about my book for months with the press, we never went there. We never went to those chapters. We worked our way around it.

They wanted to hear more about my work with the military. Around PTSD and trauma that happens during wartime. They wanted to hear more about my recovery from addiction, using music and songs to help me to stay clean and sober. I'm in my 32nd year of recovery. They wanted to hear about the songwriting process, but we just leapfrogged right over the whole primal wound. That is the genesis of all the work that I do, and I didn't need to talk about it. The, I think it makes people uncomfortable. I think it's very hard for people and they know they're likely to say something stupid because they don't understand, and so they don't wanna do that.

They don't wanna step in it. I, I've had so many people in the triad say things that were just kinda insensitive or just ignorant or un unschooled. Everybody feels like an orphan. Is that right? That's good to know. Like we're gonna argue with that, but that's unschooled.

Haley: Yes.

Mary Gauthier: That's the lack of curiosity around what an adoptee actually feels. Yeah.

Haley: I you shared your book that you've worked with veterans and helping them sing songs. And again, your sobriety and I'm curious. Who are the people that you feel most connected with when you're writing songs? Cuz listing off those communities. We all come from a place of some sort of traumatic incident and yeah. What are your thoughts around that? Do you get different feelings when you're working with different people?

Mary Gauthier: The work I did with veterans was very specific, was part of an organization. A program that paired professional songwriters with wounded veterans. So that, that I was dropped into that community and really loved it. I enjoyed that work very much. I did it for 10 years. And then life changed and the organization changed and I moved on. I've written with healthcare workers during the height of the pandemic who were also, were highly traumatized.

They went from being heroes to being feared because they could be carrying this deadly virus. And there's different types of songwriting. When I write generally I'm trying to just write from my own observation of the world and my own emotion. But when I'm paired with other folks through any number of reasons I do resonate as a songwriter with people who have story and people with trauma have story. And it's untold story, which is rich.

Rich, rich to be mined by a songwriter. There's very few people who don't have some kind of deep trauma. There. There's just such a long list. I would argue it's probably traumatic just being a woman in our culture. The things that women have to endure are astronomical.

And it's pretty much unavoidable. There's just medical trauma and the pandemic was traumatic for so many people. The sudden loss of elders in their family who were perfectly healthy and then dead. There, there was just so much uncertainty. I imagine that the question is unanswerable because there's so much to write about always if you're looking for truth. If you're looking to write something that says something,

Haley: You shared in your book this line about Mercy Now being one of the top 20 songs from Rolling Stone Sad songs. Yeah. And you say it's not sad, it's real.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah.

Haley: And I think that's why people connect so much with your work is that vulnerability in the real, bringing that story to, to bear. And how have you seen this for adopted people? So you share that real in The Foundling and in your memoir, what do you call your book? I feel like it's so much memoir. I know it's about songwriting too.

Mary Gauthier: It's memoir and a sort of a I think it's an instructional guide for songwriters and also I think a discussion of how to alchemize trauma.

How to alchemize things that are trying to pull you under. Through art and in my, my life. It's been songwriting. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Rolling Stone named it one of the 20 saddest songs of all time, and they missed it. It's not a sad song. I think that we live in escapist culture, and if music and art is not escapist, then they call it sad.

They got two settings, escapist or sad and. Yeah, that's just a lack of imagination. If it makes you feel something, a variety of some things I think that's great art and you're supposed to experience emotion, and if you cry, it doesn't mean you're sad. It means something really touched you.

It's almost a cultural fear of tears and emotion. Because sad is bad, but not all tears are around sorrow and sadness and grief and loss. I've cried at staring at a Van Gogh in person. His self-portrait. It's just so moving. And it wasn't because I was sad. It was because it was beautiful and so yeah.

I think when we talk honestly and openly about our life as adoptees, people are gonna inherently characterize it as sad, but sads only one of the experiences. The one of the other really I think important things to discuss is how resilient we are and just how amazing human beings can be in, in that department to create a world that we can survive through our imagination and then have to dismantle it and get to reality somehow. So that we can survive again and again. And that there's something about that's hopeful. Very hopeful that hope is a part of it. You know that we need hope and I think hope can come from rewriting the story over and over again.

Haley: I think that is one of the critiques of folks in our community who are talking about that adoption is trauma and it comes across sometimes as like sharing from a place of like victimization cuz we didn't have any choice in it. And I think when you talked about in your book about, going to treatment for codependency and learning that you were abandoning yourself.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah.

Haley: And you had to kinda show up for yourself. Can you talk a little bit through that? Cuz that's oh that's a, that could sound like easy. Oh, that's to the place I need to get. But that is a huge leap to go from, I'm abandoning myself and what happened to me to, okay, now I'm gonna choose myself.

Mary Gauthier: It's so hard. And it's so much work. It's so much work until we become conscious of what we're doing. I should keep this in first person because we're all so different too. Everyone's experience is so unique, but for me, until I became conscious of what I was doing, I couldn't stop doing it. And I was just reenacting abandonment.

Unconsciously. I expected to be abandoned, so I behaved accordingly, and I had to bring that to the surface that this is what I'm expecting. And that's a lie. I'm telling myself a lie. I don't need to expect to be abandoned. You know what, how do I rewrite that story? And as, as far as the community at large talking about this, and being criticized, whenever you tell the truth about anything, you're gonna get criticized.

Have at it, critics. There is more power in telling the truth than in being a critic, because when you speak truth, you help others and you you model courage so that others might be brave. The critics just create fear. They're not doing anything particularly useful. And so I say speak up and know that the critics are always waiting to criticize.

It's what they do. They don't get to define us. We do.

Haley: Can you talk a little bit about the importance of really digging down when you need mental health supports. I try very hard to normalize going to therapy and we talk so much about that here because there's so many things we can learn from listening to shows or reading books and reading self-help books and things, but often that's still looking outward and it's really hard to look inward just with yourself with no supports, especially for a wound like the primal wound.

Mary Gauthier: Oh gosh. I've been in recovery and I go to 12 step meetings and I've been doing that for 32 years and I probably, hopefully always will. I need support. I need support around my addiction. I need support in my recovery. I do therapy and I've done therapy for a very long time. I've done very many things and will continue to do very many things to disassemble the wound, I don't want it to kill me. I want to not only not die from the wound, I want to thrive.

I want to experience my full potential as a human being. I don't wanna be held back by what happened to me at birth. And look we're not in a level playing field with everybody. When you have that severing at birth, you're gonna have to deal with a different reality emotionally and spiritually.

And knowing what that is, is helpful. Naming it, identifying it, and seeing how it makes decisions for me, allows me to then make different decisions. My, my belief systems were formed by this, and I've had to rebuild this stuff. It's not an overnight thing. It's decades at work.

There's joy in the work too. And there's joy in finding people who genuinely help us or let me get it back to first person. I've experienced joy in finding beautiful people who have truly helped me. There is so much meaning in the work and I'm at peace with doing, I call it work. It's not even work. Yeah. I'm at peace with actively healing.

Haley: That's so wise. That's so good. You mentioned at the start of your story even at the time of your adoption, there was parents that weren't even telling their kids they were adopted, which still happens to this day. It's rare, more rare, but it still is happening shockingly. But now there are more and more studies coming out about us as adopted people, and one of the really staggering stats is that we're two times more likely to be diagnosed with a substance use disorder and what are you seeing anything in, in having more information accessible like this?

Like I know in, in your story you share that you were abusing alcohol in your teens and there was a tumultuous home life as well and lots of hard things happening for you. But do you see any movement in that. If we have more research to show that, and for parents to be on the lookout and knowing that adoption is trauma. I don't know. I'm looking for some hope for the younger generations that they won't be so in the dark as we were.

Mary Gauthier: Just speaking what you spoke when I started talking this way, the only people talking this way were Betty Jean Lifton and a handful of others. And I think it's pretty common knowledge now that the primary cause of addiction is trauma.

I think that the experts in trauma have articulated that from Gabor Maté to Dr. Bessel Van der Kolk. Addiction is caused primarily by trauma. That it's it's not a hundred percent always caused by trauma. There's a genetic component, but it's understood by by mental health experts that when you have trauma, it creates this pain that chemical substances can relieve for a little while.

So if it's understood that there is a primal wound in the separation from the birth family, that is a deep trauma, then I would imagine that more and more people understand that you're at risk for addiction. And you're, my ACEs scores, there were no ACEs scores when I was a kid, but if there were, mine would've been through the roof.

I'd have burned the test down. I was ripe for the trouble I got in and so was my adoptive brother. And we just, absolutely. A Hollywood version did exactly what would be expected with the trauma that we carried. And intervention, I think is, I think hope is real. When you are aware of a vulnerability, you address it, you discuss it, you say, you know this is what's going on, and here's what could be.

We have to be careful around this. We need to talk about this. And I think the light, letting the light in speaking, honestly about it can avert some of the worst of it. If we stay in the dark and pretend it's not happening, nothing's ever gonna change.

Shows like yours and so many books are being written now that, that speak these truths. Mine included. And there's just a vast amount of truth telling going on, which I think is transformative.

Haley: Yeah. The more of us that speak up, it does lend that courage as you were mentioning earlier. Okay. Let's talk about the joy. I love that you started songwriting a little bit later on, like that was a discovery for you later.

Can you tell us about what it's like to find out who you really are later on? I think so many of us adoptees struggle with identity issues in particular cuz we're in a family that are strangers and where's our mother. But that is just a piece of your story. I just love I love when people come into who they're supposed to be, yeah.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah. I I was in the restaurant business. I got arrested for drunk driving. I got sober. And next thing I'm at a open mic with one of my waitresses and she plays an original song and light bulb screws in, and I just saw it. I wanted to do that. And so I've always had a guitar banging around, played cover songs and, I re- strung it and got some callouses built up and I started writing songs.

And I moved to Nashville when I was 40. I live in Nashville now. So I've been here 21 years. I I really didn't know I was a songwriter until after I got sober. And I, even then I had to become a songwriter. But it felt right and it felt true and it it still does. I think the restaurant business was a bit of a placeholder for me as I got stable, as I, it helped me stable stabilize after I got sober and then leap frog into becoming a an author and a songwriter and a teacher.

I teach songwriting all the time and I work with adults who are trying to articulate hard things.

Haley: What's it like to be on stage? And I have a friend who is absolutely obsessed with you. I know she's come to a show and she got to meet you and you signed her book and her copy of your book and. What's it like to perform and then sometimes get to connect with adopted people.

Mary Gauthier: It's fantastic. It's awesome. It's really beautiful to, to meet the Kindred folk. It's there's just an understanding. We understand. We understand, there's so much we don't have to say we get it. We know. And that this intensifies also as you get older, because it is a it's a lonely experience.

If you don't have these type of connections with other adoptees who get it. Because it is, there's no explaining this fully. It's too much. Any trauma cannot be explained fully. You can explain aspects of it, but in its entirety, it's too big. You can't submerge somebody into this experience who hasn't experienced it. It's just not gonna happen.

Haley: I'm imagining that you get emails and letters and correspondence from. All members of the adoption constellation, and I have people send me very hard stories and it can feel overwhelming sometimes because you're, you become a carrier of their pain. How have you managed to do that? And I, I think, I don't know, you seem just like a very empathetic person and that you're really good at walking alongside people in that. But at your level, it's just not possible to do that for everyone. So how are you able to manage those feelings?

Mary Gauthier: Yeah. I do receive a lot of a lot of stories, a lot of. Because I tell mine people want, wanna tell me theirs. And I think for me, I acknowledge their experience. And I think the thing that matters is, there's an acknowledgement. They're not asking me to fix 'em or anything. They know that nobody can fix it. It's work that has to be done, but to just say, I see you and your story matters.

Thank you for honoring me with it. I don't overthink it anymore. I don't try to carry it along with me or take it as a burden that I need to add to the pile or anything. I think a simple acknowledgement and follow it up with your story does matter. Everyone's stories matter. People tell their stories cuz they're asking does it matter?

And it does matter. And we tell it looking to connect and looking for I think resonance. And when stories resonate I let people know they resonate. And then I move on out of necessity. And it's what you do. You don't stay stuck in someone's story. You move on and, but you have to, honestly, it's a, it's about respect. Really taking it in, really seeing it, and then releasing it.

I think that's the only thing you can do.

Haley: So you shared in the book that you grew up with so you were the first child that your parents adopted and then they adopted a brother and then they had a biological daughter. So you grew up with a fellow adoptee. Did you ever talk about being adopted?

And I asked you earlier about sort of your family and you said they didn't really engage with your art. How about your brother?

Mary Gauthier: Nope. He sees it as a betrayal of my adoptive parents to talk about adoption, and so I honor that. I used to see it that way too when I was a young person. He's never grown out of that.

I think he's afraid that if he acknowledges the amount of his pain, and I'm just reading this into him, that he could lose the two parents that he had. My father's passed on, but my mom's 86, she's still alive. He, my brother sees her almost every day and he wouldn't, I don't think ever talk about his adoption wounds or anything like that while she's still alive. and I don't think she wants him too. I don't think she wants me to, but my brother and I are different. I don't see it as a betrayal. I see it as self-preservation. I can do it in a loving and respectful way, but I have to do it.

Haley: I also was rejected by my biological mother, so I had a four month reunion with her and then she cut off contact, and that was in my very early twenties and it took me, I think about eight years before I looked for my father.

And we have a really great relationship now over 10 years. Have you ever searched or wanted to know, or was the door closing with your mother? Just that was it.

Mary Gauthier: I would love to know. I asked her, but she won't tell me. And she is adamant about that. She won't tell me, and there's no genetic testing that gets us the paternal side as women.

So it's in her, she, it's up to her and she won't, and I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna have to let it go. Yeah. Unless genetics figures out a way to get the paternal side for a woman, I just won't know. And, at this stage, he's probably deceased. I would like to know if I have siblings on my paternal side but it might not be something I ever know and I can't, I can't make, and I got my original birth certificate when they opened it up in Louisiana last year, and it does not have the paternal side on it.

So that's that. I don't think I am gonna know.

Haley: Yeah, there is, there's a lot of movement forward in dna, so who knows? Maybe someday you'll have some answers. I really appreciate you digging into so many of those deeply personal things with us and for, I don't know if you see it this way, but a lot of us look up to you as a leader in the adoptee community for the things that you've shared.

So I absolutely want people to, if they haven't yet, to listen to your music. And if you need a good cry, you need to really get in your feelings, and journal. The Foundling is the place to do that. But look at all the tabs I have in your book, Mary.

Mary Gauthier: Thank you.

Haley: Yes, it is so insightful and thoughtful, and I think this would be a great book to share with non-adopted people in your life because it has part of your story in it, but as you mentioned it, it's talking to trauma survivors and just people that wanna process story and it's so amazing. I listen to it as well, which is like such a huge gift cuz it's from your voice and you have some of your songs on there. Even songs you wrote in process and you sing it. Oh my gosh. Like amazing. Like 10 outta 10.

Mary Gauthier: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Haley: Yeah. So for people who wanna start the conversation about adoption with people that aren't adopting their lives, I think this be a great sort of entry into that. What do you wanna recommend to folks?

Mary Gauthier: I'd say build your understanding on the classics of our literature. I think Journey of the Adopted itself is a must read. The Betty Jean Lifton book and the follow up. I have 'em right there on my counter. Right there. I reference Betty Jean a lot. And she wrote another book about a polish doctor named Corsak who marched orphans out of the orphanage during World War II.

And the story, I will not give it away, but it's incredibly moving. Betty Jean is one of my favorite writers around this stuff. I think get the foundation. And I read over 60 books when I was writing The Foundling. I read everything out there in our literature at the time, there wasn't a lot. Nothing surpassed BJ and and Nancy Verrier.

They added to it. But those are foundational for me. And. I couldn't recommend them. More they gave me a language to my own experience that I didn't have before I read it. That's truly foundational. That would be my suggestion.

Haley: Wonderful. And the other thing I love that you shared earlier was being in community with fellow adoptees because

Mary Gauthier: Yes.

Haley: We're the ones that get it.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah. We don't have to explain it to each other. We get it.

Haley: I love how you've cultivated community and on your YouTube channel through part of the pandemic you had Sundays with Mary. Yeah. Just so special, like a place for people to come live and hear you. And so anyway, if people need some comfort as well, they could check that out on your YouTube channel.

But when we're recording this early 2023, you are on tour so people can come and see you.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah. I'm always adding tour dates. I'm really a troubador at heart. I go from town to town and play music and tell stories and I I tend to be very on the go. I love my job.

I love my work and it does take me around the world. Just hop onto my website if you're interested in catching the show. I play relatively small venues, usually under 300 people. And it's a very conversational show. It's an ancient art. I'm a troubador. I'm a storyteller at heart.

And so I tell stories in between the songs, which also tell stories. And what I'm motivated to do is create connection. Resonance. I think resonance is very important, especially for adoptees. We desperately need resonance.

Haley: Yes. Thank you. It has just been an absolute honor. Thank you so much for sharing some of your story and wisdom with us, and I know that it'll be very exciting for some, maybe of my younger listeners who haven't gotten into Mary's work yet to dive into some of your albums, which there are many available, so amazing.

Mary Gauthier: Yeah. Thank you for what you do. Thanks for articulating this for the next generation of folks that have to deal with it. Thank you. Thank you.

Haley: Thank you so much, Mary.

Oh my goodness. Mary is amazing. And if you've ever had a chance to see her perform live, I would love to hear about a common comment on the Instagram. Post about this show and share what it was like to hear her perform. Her book Saved by a Song- it just, it's truly so wonderful. It's an amazing, listen, I already said on Audible, but I think we're gonna be reading it later this year for our book club.

So if you're interested in reading more adoptee authored work, come on over. AdopteesOn.com/BookClub has a list of our book picks this year. And if you're a patron, you have access to the Live Zoom recordings, and then we always release the audio afterwards so you can hear if you're not able to join us live.

The other fun thing about Book Club is it's really a community experience. So we usually have an hour discussion about the book, but then afterwards when we're not recording, we hang out and just talk about the book and adoptee related things. So this if you're listening when this goes live, the book we're reading right now is Invisible Boy by Harrison.

And we're gonna be joined by him on May 6th for our live Zoom book club. So if you wanna join us, adopteeson.com/bookclub has details of how to become a Patreon supporter. We would love to have you, and thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.