59 Caitríona - I'm Still Grieving Her
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/59
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 4, Episode 1, Caitríona. I'm your host, Haley Radke.
Welcome to Season 4. I am thrilled to be taking you on a journey of looking deep into the theme of relationships. You and I will be exploring what our relationships look like as adopted people. Many of us struggle to connect with others because we don't even truly know ourselves.
Join me as we learn from incredible adoptees in each episode of Season 4. Some have figured it all out and some are floundering, but [00:01:00] we have got every topic covered, and I promise you will feel like you're not alone in navigating this messy world of relationships.
I am ridiculously happy to share today's episode with you. You may have read Caitríona Palmer's bestselling memoir, An Affair with My Mother. Maybe you even cried your way through it like I did. Caitríona shares with us today what building a relationship with her mother was like, the heartbreak of being kept a secret, and the high cost she has paid for sharing her story publicly.
We wrap up with recommended resources, including an exciting announcement that you definitely wanna stick around for. All of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Caitríona Palmer. Welcome Caitríona.
Caitríona Palmer: Thank you, Haley. [00:02:00] It's such a privilege to be here.
Haley Radke: Well, I have been fan-girling a little bit. I'm not ashamed to admit it because I love your book and when I found out you actually listened to the podcast, I just about died.
Caitríona Palmer: Well, thank you. I mean, really, it's such a thrill for me, and you do so much for so many of us. So thank you.
Haley Radke: That's so kind. Well, I'd love it if you would start the way we always do. Would you share some of your story with us?
Caitríona Palmer: Absolutely. Well, um, it begins in Ireland in Dublin in 1972, when I was born.
My mother was an unmarried Irish mother, which in those days meant that there was really no possibility of her keeping me. But unlike many mothers of her generation who were forced to go away to mother and baby homes or to Magdalene laundries, my mother, because she was independent and working, was able to pay her way out of that situation and have me privately. [00:03:00]
So basically she, through the aid of a Catholic charity, was hidden in a suburban house in Dublin throughout the duration of her pregnancy and then gave birth to me in April, 1972. We spent, I think, just a day together in a Dublin hospital before I was taken by car across Dublin City.
I should mention that the car stopped so I could be briefly baptized in a cathedral in Dublin. And then I was ferried across to a baby home called Temple Hill, where I was there for another six weeks before I was adopted and given to my parents, Liam and Mary. I grew up in a very happy home in north Dublin. I had an older brother and an older sister, and I was defiantly happy.
I would tell people [00:04:00] early on in our conversations that I was adopted and I was almost proud of it but, in my mind, it had no impact on my life whatsoever. Adoption didn't change me. It didn't make me who I was. I was almost evangelical in that respect. But I was constantly shadowed by this sort of persistent ache, this missing piece of me, which I could never quite understand. But that I refused to confront, I guess.
But that all then came to a head in my mid-twenties when I decided to search for my mother. When I was 26, I moved to Bosnia, which was at that time reeling from the wake of the conflict that had torn the former Yugoslavia apart. I was working for a non-profit that had the very grim task of exhuming [00:05:00] mass graves and looking for missing persons.
I was very young. I was very enthralled by this work, but obviously very disturbed by it. But something strange happened in Bosnia where I was day in and day out dealing with the relatives of the Srebrenica missing, which was this horrendous massacre that had occurred in, in July, 1995. I would reflect on the fact that it wasn't even the corpses that were bothering me, it was these families of the missing who were completely torn asunder and desperate to know the identities of their loved ones.
And something happened in that time for me, where obviously there's no comparison to my situation and my missing mother in relation to the Srebrenica victims, but I realized, in this almost sort of light bulb moment, that I needed [00:06:00] to search for my missing DNA, that there was something profoundly missing in my life.
And that was the moment, in 1999, early in that year, that I decided that I would search for my mother. It completely took me by surprise. I had never expected to go down that route. I had, so I had said earlier when people asked me, you know, are you gonna search one day? I would say, absolutely not. You know, I don't need to. I'm very happy.
But that really did change. So that was the year that I embarked upon looking for my birth mother, who I found relatively quickly, which is quite surprising given the constraints of the Irish adoption system, which is obviously very closed and very structured against the rights of adoptees and their mothers.
But I found her quickly through the agency that had first brokered the adoption, which was called St. Patrick's Guild. [00:07:00] I flew back from Bosnia to Dublin, where I was interviewed by a very stern nun who was questioning me, almost like a criminal investigation as to why I wanted to search.
And that was a very difficult moment for me where I was trying to prove my worth to this nun that I was able to do this and that this was my right. Clearly she thought it was. After that interview, I was placed on a waiting list, and my mother was found very soon after that. She was delighted and thrilled to hear that I was alive and that I wanted to meet with her. She was overjoyed. She expressed regret over what had happened.
She had said she'd been waiting for this moment since she had last seen me, but there was a catch [00:08:00] that I wasn't aware of. And the catch was that she had never told anyone about me. So neither the man that she had married, who was not my father, but another man she'd married many years after I was born. She had not told their children; she had not told her friends.
So I was a secret, which completely threw me. You know, I had expected that she would be dead. That was the worst-case scenario or that she wouldn't want to meet me. But never in a million years did I ever think that I would be a secret, but I decided I could deal with that, that that was something that we would get through.
So we had this lovely period before we met in person where I was living in Bosnia, she was in Dublin, and we would send letters back to each other via fax because it was so long ago.
Haley Radke: This was through the intermediary, right?
Caitríona Palmer: Through a social worker at the agency. [00:09:00] I write about it in my book, but one of the most profound moments in my life was standing in this very chilly office in Bosnia, where I worked, in the city of Tuzla in eastern Bosnia and watching that first letter from her unfurl out of the fax machine and seeing her script, her handwriting coming out very slowly, which to me was that first resonance of biology, seeing something tangible that belonged to her. I still get goosebumps even when I think about it now and trying not to rip the paper out of the fax machine, you know, wanting desperately to read what was on it, but trying to be patient to let it come all the way out.
So that was a lovely period, really, where we were able to get to know each other a little bit before our first meeting, which took place in December of 1999. [00:10:00] I opened my memoir, An Affair with My Mother, with that first meeting because I wanted to portray the reality.
If you had been in the room that day, you would've seen us embracing. And my mother, who I call Sarah, crying tears of joy and it looked like such a happy scene. But for me, I was completely numb. I was, I think in retrospect, just in shock and I shut down. I mean, I was outwardly very happy to see her, but I was completely unaware of the enormity of what that moment would be like.
And it improved after a few additional meetings, but that first meeting I'll always remember as being completely extraordinary on so many levels and, and not really a pleasant one. And I'm sure you can relate and so many people listening in. [00:11:00]
Haley Radke: Yeah, definitely. It is such a shock, right?
It's surreal to be in the same room as someone with your biology for the first time as an adult. It's kind of nuts. And this happened prior to you having children as well?
Caitríona Palmer: It did. And I remember very vividly when Sarah first saw me, she reached for me and held me. And in that moment, and then subsequently when I had my own children, I realized that the last time, obviously, she had seen me, I was a tiny newborn baby.
And it was as though she was enveloping me again. You know, she literally gripped me and held me and wouldn't let go. There was such sadness and pain in that embrace. And I often now, as a mother, when I'm holding my children, I think of her all the time in that sense, just the terrible loss and the inability to regain that loss in that [00:12:00] first embrace.
So that really was the beginning of what I later termed our “affair” because I went into that first meeting with Sarah thinking, this has been a shock for her. I'm back in her life, but in time, you know, surely in a couple of weeks, at the very most a couple of months, she will tell everyone. And being the good little adoptee that I am, I really wanted to give her time and space.
And so I very much made it clear to her that she could take as much time as she needed, and I would emphasize that all the time. I didn't know then that it would be, you know, a year, five years, 10 years, 15 years. But I didn't want to lose her. And so we embarked upon this secret clandestine affair where we literally met in hotels across Dublin City. [00:13:00]
We would initially broker a secret assignation through the social worker who would let us each know some days we were available and we would show up. I was living outside of Ireland at the time, but I would fly in and I would show up at a hotel bearing flowers initially and gifts for her. And we would meet and have a lovely tea time or a drink in a bar, and then we would leave.
And after a period of time, I realized that it was impossible for her to explain these extravagant gifts that I was bringing her back home. So I stopped bringing them after a while. I also realized that she had very young children at the time, so it must have been difficult for her to actually get out of the house.
The logistics of coming to see me must have been daunting for her. But I never asked her what they were. We had ground rules, unspoken ground rules of these meetings. [00:14:00] Um, and they were both addictive because I really wanted to see her and to know as much about her as I could and about my own beginnings, but they were also deeply punishing.
I would leave feeling exhausted and wrung out and totally sort of scraped of all of my emotions, just bled dry in a way. And, you know, we had no support really. After a while, it was just the two of us. So it was very difficult to know how to navigate that relationship and the weight of the secret of this. My secret existence really hung heavily upon us.
Haley Radke: What did you talk about when you met up?
Caitríona Palmer: Well, like good Irish people, we always talked about the weather initially. [00:15:00] She wanted to know a lot about me. You know, in her mind I was living this adventurous, interesting life. And you know, I don't think I was at all. I was just living abroad and I had done interesting things with work, but she really wanted to know about me.
So we talked, we spoke a lot about my work and my dreams. We rarely talked about her. She was, that was really a no-go zone. We talked a little bit about her work. She worked as a teacher. We spoke a little bit about her children, but she was very careful about what she revealed. So I quickly learned early on what we could talk about and what we couldn't.
Sometimes we broached the past, but I learned again quickly that that was a topic that she didn't really want to go near. And that became a major issue for me where I desperately wanted to ask about my beginnings. [00:16:00] You know, who my father was. I wanted that story, but I was too afraid to ask her.
So it took a long time before I worked up the courage. She, of course, initially, very initially gave me the bare outlines, but I really wanted to know more. So the meetings were warm and loving, but frustrating. I would leave feeling as though I knew very little about her, about my own story, but I felt that with time and with patience and with, you know, grace on my part, then surely she would open up.
But she never really did, which is such a pity really, because, you know, she's such a lovely person and she clearly had such love for me and such regret. [00:17:00] That I almost, in a way, felt like the parent in the room or in the relationship. I was constantly reassuring her and tending to her needs, always putting myself or my own needs last, which I think has a lot to do with my psychology as an adoptee.
I know that's certainly a trait, but I think I really lived and breathed that. I was a people-pleaser. I still am a little, not as much, but I really, you know, worked hard to put everyone else before my own needs. You know, out of fear, I think, out of fear of losing people. And I was desperate not to lose her.
Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit about when you started sharing this story in a more public light? [00:18:00] Because didn't you write a little bit before your memoir, maybe some pieces or did you do any interviews before you published your memoir?
Caitríona Palmer: I did. Which I never expected to, because it's, obviously, it’s my story, but it's also her story. And because of the weight of the secret, I did not want to scare her or betray her.
But because I am a journalist, I was fascinated by our story and I wanted to investigate it, and I kept that very much within my own mind. I was careful not to even say it out loud to my husband or to my friends. But there were a few moments in Irish public life that, particularly in relation to Philomena, [00:19:00] obviously it's a name synonymous with that extraordinary story of Philomena Lee who kept her son a secret for 50 years, when I felt compelled to write something. So I did a couple of pieces about my story and asked Sarah's express permission, could I write about it?
And that's where the name Sarah evolved. I mean, that is not her name, but I use that name to disguise her identity because I felt I had this place, I guess, in Irish journalism, a voice where I could talk about it. So there were a couple of very small pieces that went out. And then all of a sudden I was writing a book, which was never meant to happen, particularly memoir. It's a really messy, messy business. [00:20:00] It was a famous Irish writer, Nuala O’Faolain, who once said that memoir leaves blood on the tracks.
So I was very aware of that, but I began to realize that the only way that I could perhaps shed light on Sarah's plight and that of tens of thousands of Irish women who had been treated abominably by not just the Irish church, but the Irish state and society, that there was this well-oiled system orchestrated to basically contain these women, to send them away, to take them out of sight and to take their children away.
I just felt that I should write about that and to do it through my own story and that of Sarah's, and I approached her to run this idea by her. You know, we met in a hotel, one of our usual hotels, and I told her, I thought [00:21:00] about writing a book and she thought it was a great idea and we struck a deal that I would write a book, but I would keep her identity secret, which was a very brave thing for her to agree to. She didn't hesitate and that was a gift to me. And so I began this really extraordinary adventure of investigating my life and telling her story, which led to the book.
Haley Radke: And so you did indeed ask her about your origins and you went there.
Caitríona Palmer: Yeah. Oh boy, I did. And that was really tough. Even then, you know, it was really tough. In a way I sort of created this persona for myself as a journalist. I used my tape recorder as a shield. [00:22:00] I felt that it put some distance between us. And we met, uh, I was living in the United States by that point, but I came home for a week in October in 2013, and I sat with her. And in retrospect, it's the most time we've ever spent together.
So we met for four days in a row in north Dublin, close to where I grew up, for about three hours a day. For those four consecutive days, I interviewed her and it was heart wrenching and wonderful because we really got it out on the table and every day I would have to literally close my eyes before walking into that hotel and summon up courage.
Which seems silly, I think, that I was so hesitant to ask her these probing questions, but she was very hesitant to give me the answers, [00:23:00] and I'm still not sure why. I think it's possibly just the pain and the trauma that she experienced in that uniquely Irish system, it just deeply scarred her. And I often go back to those moments wondering, was I doing the right thing? Did I do the right thing? Was this fair to her?
But I was trying to get at my story, and I did do that to an extent. But what I learned was the depth of her pain, and her trauma, and I understood a little, the reason why she was keeping me a secret in this new, shiny new Ireland, you know, Post-Celtic Tiger. This was not the same country, and yet the fear of losing everything that she had built up since I had been born was so great that she would do everything she could to keep it hidden down inside.
And I should point out that, you know, I mentioned it already, but she really was not alone. [00:24:00] There were thousands of other women like her that I didn't fully appreciate at that time. I mean, that's another part of the story, which I can tell you a little bit later, the people who contacted me after I wrote my story.
But I knew I was getting at something as a journalist. I knew I was getting closer through Sarah's pain and anguish to a larger problem. So those days in that hotel when I interviewed her, they were really an enormous gift. And I look back on it fondly.
Haley Radke: So you write your memoir and it's beautiful and incredibly candid, and you share, as you've shared with us, about the painful and the awkward and all the feelings, it's all in there. [00:25:00] What happens with your relationship with Sarah when she reads this?
Caitríona Palmer: It's one thing to want to write a memoir, then it's another thing to actually publish it.
And I had not understood the depths of courage that that would take. I don't even know if courage is the right word. So I wrote it. I was very lucky. I got a book deal. Sarah celebrated that with me. And then she fell silent. So even before the book was written, four months, in fact, before the book was handed into my publishers, she sent me a text on Christmas Day, 2014.
We would reach out to each other on holidays and then occasionally throughout, once a week or so, we would send each other a text. [00:26:00] But on Christmas Day, 2014, she sent me a very cheery text wishing me a Happy Christmas and sending love, and I replied. And then I never heard from her and have not heard from her ever since.
So she had not even seen the book at that point because it wasn't even written. I reached out to her consistently for the next several months. I was very worried. I checked the death notices in the Irish newspapers, but there was no word. I do know that she is alive. I was able to find that out through another part of her family. I don't want to do any spoiler alerts in terms of the book.
So I have no idea why. I mean, I think the fear of publication, the pain of what was about to happen was possibly too great for her. So she chose to just drift away. [00:27:00] I feel terrible about that. I feel like I am to blame.
I, on my darkest days, feel that perhaps by publishing the book I committed some type of literary betrayal. But I try and stand firm in knowing that it was my story to tell and that I told it with as much love and compassion and empathy as possible. I mean, I often refer to this book as a love letter to her.
In a way, when I think back on the reasons for writing it, I mean, obviously as a journalist, I wanted to tell this story and this larger story, and, as you're probably aware, it is a sort of a larger exploration of the legacy of secrecy and shame in Ireland. But I also wanted to publicly exonerate Sarah.
I wanted her to understand that what had happened was not her fault, because she truly believes that it is her fault, that she's to blame. [00:28:00] But I wanted her to see that it was Ireland's fault and the way that my country chose to shame and to mistreat these women. So it's very confusing and it's very sad.
But the flip side and the extraordinary thing of this book, which I never expected going into publication, are the hundreds of letters that I've received from people either in my situation, secret adoptees, or in Sarah's situation, mothers who were forced to give their children away, from birth fathers, from people who've lived under the weight of a family secret, be it alcoholism or sexual assault.
It's been truly astonishing. [00:29:00] And each letter or email or Facebook message is a gift. So I've lost Sarah, hopefully not forever, but, in a way, she through her bravery and her courage in allowing me to tell the story, she has gifted to many, many people who've written to me this sense of solace that they're not alone, that there are others in our situation, that adoption ruins lives in many, many respects. And that there is hope and some redemption. It's very complicated.
Haley Radke: I'm trying not to cry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that this feels like it's cost you your relationship with her. And I remember when my first mother stopped communicating with me in our reunion and just thinking, Oh my gosh, what did I do?
And now, as a podcaster, I think, does she follow this? [00:30:00] Am I saying something that's gonna be like, well, this is it. This is the deal breaker. So there's always this wondering. Would you go back in time? Would you do it again? I mean, the price that you've paid versus all of these people hearing their story through yours.
Caitríona Palmer: I would definitely do it again. That's the thing, right? And I've learned so much through this experience, and I've grown up a lot. And I would do it again. And I don't think I would do it even any differently because I know I approached it ethically and with love. You know, I think maybe what I wouldn't have done, if I look back on my relationship with Sarah, I don't think I would've remained a secret for so long.
And I'm older now, obviously, and I'm wiser. And having become a mother three wonderful times over in the meantime has taught me a lot. And it's taught me a lot about love and [00:31:00] resilience and grit. I think what I would do differently would be to, you know, with love and compassion and as much empathy as possible to say to Sarah early on, you know, I can't do this.
I can't be a secret. I can't skulk around, you know, I love you. I want you to be happy, but this is not good for me because it wasn't good for me. I was perpetuating every bad belief I'd ever had about myself that I wasn't worth it, that I wasn't good enough, that I wasn't lovable by skulking around. And by having this secret relationship with my mother, I was enforcing that and perpetuating it.
So, I mean, it's obviously easy to say this now, right? That I'm the older, wiser Caitríona. And I think it would've been better for the both of us, [00:32:00] because I think a lot about the weight of that secret on her and living this bifurcated life.
And, you know, you and I both have young children and we both work and it's a crazy existence. You know, I lurch from day to day, from one crisis to the next, and I'm perpetually exhausted. And I think of Sarah who had children very similar in age to my children when she and I first met. And the enormous strain that that must have placed on her to live that life with these children and then be sneaking off once in a while to meet with this older, secret child.
But in a way, you know, there's been so much love that has come our way and, obviously it's directed towards me because readers are writing to me, but it's the love is coming towards both of us. [00:33:00] So, like you with your podcast, when I speak publicly, I'm very conscious that she might be listening and I always try to address her and to tell her that she has helped so many people.
And that's an amazing thing that she has done. You know, one woman wrote to me saying that she had been depressed for many, many years over her own secret child that she had lost to adoption. And reading my book had spurred her to see a therapist and had essentially saved her life. It's a lovely thing for me to hear, but I want Sarah to know that, that she saved another woman's life by telling her story.
So there has been a massive personal price for me to pay, but I think I would pay that a thousand times over. But I hope, and I worry about the personal cost to her. [00:34:00] And this estrangement, I hadn't even thought about it until I listened more closely to your podcast and, you know, that this really is, I guess, a second rejection in a way, but perhaps one that I might have played a role in. I don't know.
Haley Radke: Well, you mentioned that you have three lovely children. And she's met them, is that right?
Caitríona Palmer: Yeah, she has. Early on into our relationship when I had my first child, Liam, she became another grandmother on these trips home to Ireland, and I would take him and then my two daughters to visit with her again in the hotel.
It became a little bit more complicated then, you know, with toddlers running around. Initially, as I mentioned earlier, she and I would have tea or a drink, [00:35:00] but that's harder to do when you have squirmy young children. So we would go for a walk. We would play in the garden of this hotel.
And that was really lovely because in those moments, the weight of the secret lifted. And I could just see in her the pure joy of being a grandparent and being a nervous grandparent. She was always worried about my son falling off a tree when he was climbing. And that was lovely to watch. I know that she's become a grandmother since then with her own, uh, children.
But she had this moment with my kids initially, and that is difficult for me. As I wrote in the book, it was difficult for me to be kept hidden, but I struggled that they also were part of the secret. I truly believed that when I had my first child, [00:36:00] that that would be the moment where she would, you know, run up to the attic of her house and jump out on the roof and declare my existence and his existence.
I really thought that that would be the moment, and it wasn't. So that's when I realized that we were in it for the long haul. But I think going back to the children. Another reason why I wrote the book was to, in a way, draw a line in the sand. I wanted my children to know who I was and I wanted them to know my own story, and I wanted the secret to stop with them.
Haley Radke: Yes.
Caitríona Palmer: Sarah obviously cannot own us publicly, but moving forward the secret has been given a name and they know my past. And that's a gift that she's given me, obviously, and being able [00:37:00] to tell that. But I didn't want them to grow up tainted by the secret. I didn't realize that at that time when I was writing the book. But, you know, that's really become very clear since then.
Haley Radke: How do you think your reunion with Sarah and this sort of journey has impacted your mothering?
Caitríona Palmer: You know what? I don’t know how you feel about having your kids. You know, for me there is extraordinary joy in having a biological relative close by. I still can't believe it. So I want to just inhale my kids. I think every parent does, but there's just something really amazing about that.
But I think my reunion with Sarah has really imbued me with, I think, a level of compassion and empathy that I possibly wouldn't have had, [00:38:00] because in the moment in which I held my son for the first time, my first child, I just fully understood with magnified clarity the agonizing situation that she was put through.
You know, I actually couldn't believe it. And I don't know how you felt, but I just thought, hang on, I just couldn't have done that. And she had to because of the forces that were so pervasive and so toxic in that moment. And just how you will never get over that. How your life from that moment onwards is destroyed.
Whether you get on with your life and you marry or live a productive life as she has done, I'm thinking, inwardly you're destroyed. [00:39:00] So I approach, I think, my mothering knowing that. So I love my kids, but I love them with this intensity that obviously scares me. I think sometimes, and you know, they're great kids and I, you know, that's a little obnoxious to say that about your own kids, but they really are, there's a lot of joy in our home and for that, I'm very grateful.
And there's joy in the fact that my older son, Liam, really looks like Sarah and I see flashes of her all the time, how he looks or he'll turn a certain way and that's amazing. So she's present, even though I've lost her, I see her in them and I know that she would be very proud of them. I'm a better mother because of all of what's happened.
Haley Radke: Were your kids old enough to remember her? [00:40:00]
Caitríona Palmer: Yeah, the older Liam and Caoimhe both remember her and I told them who she was. That was important to me, that they knew at the time even though they were very young. Some people have criticized me for that. The way many people criticized my parents for telling me when I was six that I was adopted. But I didn't want to perpetuate the secret.
So I told them that she was my other mother, and they were perplexed that a mother would have to give a child away. They didn't understand that. Caoimhe referred to her as the sad lady. When we would go home to Dublin, she would say, will we see that nice lady, the sad lady? Which always intrigued me. Sarah was so warm and bright and engaged with them, but that there was this [00:41:00] pervasive sadness about her that even a very young child could see. And I wish she could see them now because, you know, it's been many years and I think she would be amazed by them.
And a few times in the last year or two when I have not heard from her, I've sent a random text, hoping that she might respond and letting her know. It's meant really that I just want her to know. I sent her a text one time when Caoimhe had learned to ride a bike because that just seemed really exciting and I thought she'd like to know that.
And Caoimhe did really well this weekend in a swim meet. And I wanted to let her know and I didn't. I decided to just hang back because I don't get responses and I don't want to upset her and maybe one day she'll come back. [00:42:00]
Haley Radke: Caitríona, is there anything you want to say to us in general about that relationship between a mother and daughter as we wrap up?
Caitríona Palmer: I think the love is always there and I think I never understood how losing her really impacted my life, and I think I'm still figuring that out. And even though I've written a memoir on adoption, I still think there's more that I'm learning. And as I said earlier in this wonderful conversation, I grew up adamantly certain that adoption had not affected my life.
I was just determined to be the best person I could be and to prove my parents' worth and to excel at school and at work. And I did very well. [00:43:00] But what I didn't understand was that that primary loss, that losing Sarah really impacted me and altered me and changed me. And obviously I'm the person I am today because of that.
But I think that that loss, her loss has been profound. And I don't ever think I've ever said that publicly in all of the interviews I've done about the book. You know? And I think I'm still grieving her, and I think I grieve her every day despite my wonderful, happy life and despite the wonderful upbringing I had and my amazing husband and children, and the fact that I go out to work every day and can seem to manage to write books.
I'm internally grieving this woman, this ghost. You know, that's a love that I'll never regain in a way. [00:44:00] I think that the memoir is an attempt to sort of grasp at that. I'm not sure I answered the questions I set out to answer in it, but I wanted people to know that you can grow up happily adopted and still have this hole.
You know, I always feel like there's a hole inside of me, deep down inside that I just can't quite fill in spite of the abundance of love that I'm surrounded with every day. That, you know, that primary loss is profound.
Haley Radke: You started out saying that there was this missing piece, and I think there's just no way, it seems for me, to explain that to someone who's not adopted.
Caitríona Palmer: Yeah, you know, the interesting thing about my book. It was received very well and I got a lot of wonderful praise and critical acclaim, [00:45:00] but there were people who just didn't understand why I needed to write that, or why I needed to investigate my own story or figure out the facts.
You know, on the surface, everything's great. Look at me, Liam and Mary adopted me. I had this wonderful middle-class upbringing. I was the first person in my family to go to college. It was great. What do I have to complain about? You know, everything's fine, right? But you cannot, I think, replace love in that way.
I have grown up with an abundance of love, but there is still that missing part of me, that dissonance, that strange itch that I can't quite scratch. And it's wonderful to have this conversation with you. You get it. And many, many, many of your listeners, I'm sure all of your listeners get it.
[00:46:00] And how lucky are we that there is this community and this opportunity to talk about it? And I expect to do more of this. You know, I have not spoken to many adoptees, and that's a strange thing for me, but there is this resonance, that you get it and that others get it. And there's belonging in that.
And I think we all just want to belong, really. I mean, every human being wants that sense of belonging, but it was denied us in a strange way. And we were meant to express gratitude and move on. And yet there's this ghost in my life that I miss and that I still pine after and who I worry about. And, you know, we are an amalgam of all of those parts, I think.
I always say that I'm a part of each of my parents and my biology and my adoptive family. And that's a wonderful thing. [00:47:00]
Haley Radke: Well, Caitríona, thank you for sharing your story and those beautiful, insightful things about your relationship with your mother and your own children.
I want to go to recommended resources and, first of all, your book is amazing, totally amazing. It's called An Affair with My Mother, and it's so beautifully written. You give insights into Sarah's circumstances. As you said, you got to interview her for four days, three hours a day, so we do get that history as well.
You share about your adoptive parents and how they came to adopt you. Your older siblings are their biological children. And the circumstances which led them to adoption. [00:48:00] And you do give this really insightful look into the Irish system.
I had no idea that the Magdalene laundries were still carrying on even to the seventies. So I went to Wikipedia and it was like, oh, the last one closed in 1996.
Caitríona Palmer: 1996, in Dublin.
Haley Radke: That's insane. So I really recommend people go and investigate that further. Your mother Sarah, she didn't have to go to the laundries. I don't wanna go down that rabbit trail, but it's a very, very sad history.
And I didn't know, there's this story about smuggling contraceptives across the border. Gee, I wonder why you had all these pregnancies there. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Like, I don't really know much about Irish history. When did contraceptives become legal in Ireland? [00:49:00]
Caitríona Palmer: Well, um, not until the 1990s. And I mean, where do I begin? How many hours do you have? I mean, obviously things are different now, but abortion is still not legal in Ireland unless the life of the mother is at risk.
But there have been some horrendous cases in recent years where one case in particular a young woman died, having been denied a termination even though she was close to death. And it's easy to say that this is the church, but actually it's collusion between the church and state.
But going back to women like Sarah, the main idea was that these women were really a threat to Irish society and, [00:50:00] and to the nation state that had emerged after Irish independence. So very early on, after independence, when basically British rule had taken care of Ireland's social ills, when Ireland became newly independent, we had to do it ourselves.
And that's when the new fledgling Irish state turned over care of societal ills to the church. So that's when you see the, basically, containment. There's a wonderful professor at Boston College, professor James Smith who coined the phrase, Ireland's “architecture of containment.” So you had Magdalene laundries and mother and baby homes.
And these were essentially places where unmarried mothers, yes, but women who perhaps had the whiff of promiscuity about them or young girls growing up in a home where a mother had perhaps passed away and there were only brothers living there were literally taken by the state and put away for not having committed any crime. [00:51:00]
And they languished there either in a Magdalene laundry literally washing the nation's dirty laundry. These laundries had contracts with the Army and other state-run institutions, and there they remained. So, as you say, the last Magdalene laundry closed in Dublin in 1996.
So, you had no choice. I mean, it's obviously changed. But I grew up, I'm 45, I graduated from university in Dublin in 1993. And even back then the worst thing that could happen to you would be to have a pregnancy outside of marriage. You know, when people wonder why Sarah could not reveal me, this is obviously the root of it. But there, there are so many aspects to it. [00:52:00]
And now, you know, your listeners may know of the extraordinary case of the Tuam mother and baby home, where recently hundreds of remains of infants were found. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
There's been a lot of international attention on Tuam, and rightly so. But Tuam is just one of many, many, many horrific stories. And there are, to my knowledge, other potential graves. And the state is trying to address it, but they're focusing only on certain homes and that needs to widen.
So, even today in Ireland, this debate goes on and people tut-tut about what happened, but I don't think we're really addressing it properly. Not to the Magdalene survivors or to women like Sarah. There are so many victims of Ireland's unconscionable treatment of, of unmarried mothers. [00:53:00]
Haley Radke: Can you tell us a little bit about the Clann Project?
Caitríona Palmer: Yeah, certainly. This is an amazing initiative by some groups back in Ireland to help establish the truth of what happened to unmarried mothers and their children in 20th-century Ireland. It's important to let your listeners know of this initiative because this group called Clann, which is spelled C-L-A-N-N, they're assisting anyone who can give evidence to Ireland’s current commission of investigation into the mother and baby homes by arranging free legal assistance.
[00:54:00] So if you have a listener to your podcast who perhaps was, whose mother was in a mother and baby home, or who themselves were born there, or even somebody like me, I was not in a mother and baby home, but I've been affected through that system. You can reach out to this group Clann. And they will put you in touch with a legal firm in London and you can provide testimony to that legal firm, which will then be provided to the commission.
So it's basically what I've done in my book. It's telling stories, it's speaking our own truth and building this larger narrative that can be of enormous benefit going forward. So that the ghosts of all the past will have a voice.
Haley Radke: Oh, that's so good. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes, and then maybe if you have any other ideas for people who want to look more into the history of Ireland and, um, this legacy, is that what I should call it? That people could look up any books or other ideas that you have for them? I could link to that as well. [00:55:00]
Caitríona Palmer: Thank you.
Haley Radke: I'm so excited because you have agreed to do our very first Adoptees On Book Club,
Caitríona Palmer: Thank you. I'm thrilled.
Haley Radke: So, we're still working out the details, but we're going to do a pop-up Facebook group, and if you've never heard of a pop-up Facebook group before, essentially, we're gonna have a closed group. So when you join, people will see that you've joined, but everything that we write in the group stays private just to the members.
And it's going to be open as soon as this airs, but we're going to start discussing the book during the month of April and there'll be opportunities for you to ask questions or to discuss things that you're learning about yourself, or about Caitríona, or adoptees in general, or about the Irish adoption system.
Any of those topics are definitely welcome and we'll probably do maybe like a Facebook Live with Caitríona, something like that. [00:56:00] We're still planning it all out, but it's gonna be just an awesome opportunity to read this book together and really deep dive.
I was saying to you earlier, Caitríona, I bawled all the way through your book, so thanks for that. But really, I felt like so many of your experiences and your feelings, it was just, it's just me too. And remembering that moment when you meet your mother and you're kind of like, she's crying and you're kind of stiff. I'm like, oh, yeah, I think I was in shock for that too.
And there's, there's, there's several moments in the book, I'm not gonna say what they are, but there's several times where I'm like, oh my gosh, that's just what happened to me. Or just feeling the pain that some of those things have caused you.
[00:57:00] So, now's your chance. You can grab the book so you'll be ready to start our Book Club in April and you can pick up An Affair with My Mother. I can't say enough nice things about it.
Caitríona Palmer: Thank you. What a fun and wonderful thing to do and, you know, I'll learn so much from this and from readers.
Haley Radke: Have you read it with adoptees before, like in this kind of situation?
Caitríona Palmer: No, I haven't. I mean, I've done several book club events, but never with adoptees. So my only sort of contact has been through these letters that I've received. And I keep thinking that I need to do something with it. It almost feels like a responsibility for the people who write to me. So perhaps there's an opportunity for me to do something, you know, certainly back home in Ireland.
But again, you know, so many people from around the world have reached out that perhaps, you can inspire me. [00:58:00]
Haley Radke: You can invite them to join the Book Club.
Caitríona Palmer: Yes, yes, actually I can. Thank you.
Haley Radke: You can reply back and be like, here's the link. So, I'll put the link in the show notes, but if you just search Adoptees On Book Club pop-up group, it should pop up for you. And as it's a pop-up club, at the end of April we're gonna close it so you have to join when it's open.
Okay. Caitríona, what would you like to recommend to us?
Caitríona Palmer: Well, I spoke earlier about resonance and, uh, I came to social media late in the day. I actually didn't have a Facebook page until I published the memoir, nor a Twitter account. So I'm a little sad in that regard, but this has opened up an entirely new world to me.
[00:59:00]So I meet you through social media, and slowly but surely through the book I have become connected with adoptees and people in the adoption world. And I've been touched and amazed and made whole by so many voices out there.
But in particular, Anne Heffron has really made an impact on me. And just like when I listened to your podcasts and, you know, when I listened to the one recently with your husband, which was just so, so wonderful. But when you have that moment of Yes, yes. Yes, I know that I experienced that, and I always feel that with Anne when she puts out a tweet and I think, yes, I had that feeling.
That's exactly how I feel. And I run upstairs with my phone and show it to my husband. And there were so many things that she said recently that really made me laugh. And then that slightly horrified me because I'm realizing that that's me. [01:00:00] I really recommend her. And I know that she's been on your show and I know you speak about her frequently.
But I love the resonance that I find in Anne's words, and I find comfort in those. So, yes, Anne Heffron.
Haley Radke: Well, she'll be delighted. And Anne actually has two different Instagram accounts now. So she has one with all of her beautiful photos. And then the other one is strictly memes. And so, as you say, she'll have this thought. And right now, when we're recording this, she's making up this adoption dictionary and that's what she's been tweeting.
She's posting this on Instagram. Whatever word, she'll either make up a word or it's already a word that we use and then she'll define it and just sort of this brilliant turn, flip it on its head or whatever way that, I don't know, I would never think of. And it's so insightful. [01:01:00] So yes, for sure.
Speaking of social media, I'll tell you a little story about how I heard about your book. One of my very first guests, in fact, the first guest I ever interviewed that was a total stranger to me who saw my call for adoptees on Twitter and messaged me, and I said, oh, hey, I am starting a show. Do you wanna be interviewed?
And she said yes. Complete stranger to me. Her name is Maeve Kelly, that's her pseudonym. And she sent me the title of your book. She said, Haley, you have to read this book. It's so good. And so, of course, it's amazing. And so I started following you and stuff and we became Facebook friends.
I messaged you to ask if you'd be on the show. I texted Maeve immediately and I said: Maeve, Caitríona's gonna be on my show! Caitríona listens to my show! You made this happen. And so she was delighted. [01:02:00]
Caitríona Palmer: Wow. And Maeve, you know, I've never met Maeve, but Maeve's tweets are amazing. And she has been this friend out there who has been so supportive of me and who says the loveliest things.
So there are these angels out there, you know, who really help when I'm having a bad adoption day, you know, or, um, and I'm never sure if I'm having a bad adoption day, but I think, oh, maybe it's got something to do with that.
Haley Radke: I just blame everything on adoption now at this point.
Caitríona Palmer: Or if I read a bad Amazon review, which I've stopped doing.
Haley Radke: Oh, don't do that.
Caitríona Palmer: There was a humdinger recently when someone said that my adoptive parents did not deserve me. And that was a great day. Ugh.
Haley Radke: [01:03:00] Well, if you're taking lessons from Anne, she posts her one-star reviews on her Facebook page so everyone can mock them and tell her how amazing she is. So, you know,
Caitríona Palmer: There’s a thought.
Haley Radke: Oh, I actually got to meet Maeve in person and she has been an avid supporter of my podcast, so I appreciate her so, so much. She has become a dear friend.
We are so lucky to have you in our community, Caitríona. And thank you. I am so honored that you took the time to share your story with us and excited to keep this journey going with exploring your book a little more.
Caitríona Palmer: Thank you. And I'm so grateful to you and doubly grateful for your understanding and your empathy and just for getting it and for reaching the hand out to all of us, and I'm not sure you understand [01:04:00] just how important it is for the work that you're doing, which I know must not be easy.
You know, it's really important that you continue this, and I'm just so thrilled and so grateful. So thank you.
Haley Radke: Thank you.
Hey, did you know I have a monthly newsletter? I share little pieces of my life in there and try and keep you up to date with what you can expect from Adoptees On next. So head over to adopteeson.com/newsletter to subscribe, and I will be sure to include a link to the private Facebook Group for Book Club with Caitríona in the next edition of the newsletter.
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Next week, we are talking identity and race with April Dinwoodie. Do not miss it. April is a fellow podcaster, Born in June, Raised in April. Such a great show. We talk about so many things. April is amazing, and I basically just sat there listening to her sort of awestruck by her wisdom. [01:06:00]
So make sure you subscribe in your favorite podcast app so you don't miss next week's episode.
Thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.
