48 Julian - Their History Was Not My History

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/48

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Haley Radke: You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 9: Julian. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I welcome Julian Kelly to share her story. Julian and I talk about her search for identity, what she's done to build stronger attachments in adulthood, and how her music and songwriting allow her an amazing outlet for all the feelings.

She is wise and talented, and I don't want you to miss anything that she shared. In fact, I was so focused. Here's my true confession: I was so focused on what Julian was saying as I was interviewing her, there's a few minutes where I didn't even notice that we had a bad connection. And normally I would edit that out, but it's just so interesting and good that I know you'll be able to overlook that because we come right back to clear and you'll be able to understand everything. So just so you know, that's coming.

It's just such a great interview; I just loved my time with her. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and all the links to everything we talked about today are on the website adopteeson.com. Sorry for those couple of minutes, but it is so worth it. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Julian Kelly. Welcome.

Julian Kelly: Hi, thank you.

Haley Radke: I would love it if you would just start out and share your story with us, Julian.

Julian Kelly: My adoption story is unique and complicated, just as many others are. I was born in Baltimore, Maryland (according to one source). Another source says that I was born elsewhere in France, so I'm not really sure.

I was adopted by a family. Legally, they adopted me around three years old. During the time that I was not adopted, I was in the system. I was in foster care and also in a couple of orphanages, then was eventually adopted. And my adoption was a closed adoption, so I had virtually no information about either side of my family. Everything that I had was basically hearsay from the social worker. So, when I decided that I wanted to try and find my birth family, I was starting from zero.

Haley Radke: When you just said, “I don't actually know if I might have been born in France,” I was like, What? That is some interesting information that you got.

That, so starting from zero, what does that look like?

Julian Kelly: Do you mean starting from zero with my search or just starting with zero in my psyche, and my being, and my process of trying to make peace with my adoption? Which one are you interested in?

Haley Radke: All of them. Let's start with search.

Julian Kelly: Okay, my search for my birth family was essentially my search for my identity, because my adoption was a closed adoption. So I wasn't privy to basic biological information. In fact, I later found out that the agency even changed my date of birth. A lot of the information that you get comes from the social worker, and it's not written down, and it could be wrong. And a lot of the information that I had in the beginning was based on things that just my adoptive parents remembered that the social worker had said, and weren't sure if they remembered them correctly.

I started with what I thought I knew, which was that the family was located in Baltimore, and part of the family was. The other part of the family was in France. Since I had so little information to go on, what I did was I went on AncestryDNA. And took the DNA test there and that connected me with my father's family.

I connected with them and became very, very close with an aunt on that side. Her name is Manuela and she was incredibly helpful to me. She was able to tell me who was in Baltimore in ‘83 (the year I was born). Then I connected with the adoption agency to try and find information on my mother's side of the family and that was very difficult.

The agency told me that they'd lost my biological mother's file. At one point, they gave me incorrect information. They gave me somebody else's file once and told me that both of my biological parents were deceased. I mean, I really, really, really went through it with the agency. And finally they said, “Okay, we've lost the file. So we have to go to the state archives to search for it. And hopefully it'll be there. And if it's not there, then we can't help you.”

I had to file a bunch of paperwork and they just dragged their heels with searching the archives. This process went on for a number of years; I think it was six years. Eventually, the social worker that I was working with said, “Well, there is another name in the file that belonged to my adoptive parents.” And just on a crapshoot, she thought, Well, did your biological mother try to put another child up for adoption? and “I'm going to reach out to this woman, this random woman, and see if maybe you're her child,” (basically).

And it turned out that my biological mother had at one point, tried to put my sister up for adoption and my sister's information had gotten switched. The file information had gotten switched. So we were able to connect that way. So it was very complicated and frustrating and there were a lot of emotional ups and downs, because I’d get these calls like, “We found her, we found her!” And then a call would come a week later, which would say, “I'm sorry, I was wrong. I had the wrong person. I'm still looking, but I was mistaken. That's not her.”

So I would have these moments of elation and feeling like I finally found my family. And then there would be this horrible letdown that happened twice. The agency also was supposed to hold on to a letter for me that was allegedly written by my biological mother. And I was supposed to be able to pick that letter up when I was 18.

I called the agency shortly thereafter, and they'd lost it. And after briefly speaking with my birth mother, she said she'd also left tapes, like little audio tapes with her voice on it for me, and none of that was kept for me. Nobody knows where any of it is.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh.

Julian Kelly: It was rather complicated.

Haley Radke: That is one of the most wild stories I've heard for a domestic situation (domestic adoption).

Julian Kelly: Yeah, it was really complicated and I think that probably the agency, I think they felt pretty bad about the fact that they'd lost my paperwork, but also were trying to cover their tracks and were worrying about a possible lawsuit.

So in many ways, I think the answer for them was to just drag it on, and drag it on, and drag it on, indefinitely.

Haley Radke: You said you were able to speak with your birth mother.

Julian Kelly: Yes, I spoke with her a few times in April.

Haley Radke: And what did—sorry, I don't… When did you actually start the search? You said it took about six years.

Julian Kelly: The entire search took two decades. I'd actually started looking when I was 13. I started going online to chat rooms and also adoption websites and posting my information. At one point, I even put an ad in the newspaper, just doing everything that I could to find them.

And then finally, two years ago, I located my paternal side. And then just this year, I was able to connect with my maternal side.

Haley Radke: Wow. Okay.

Julian Kelly: Yeah.

Haley Radke: You and I are actually the same age. I was born in ‘83 as well.

Julian Kelly: Oh, okay.

Haley Radke: So I remember doing that when I was a teenager too, posting online in different forums and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Julian Kelly: Yeah. Similar.

Haley Radke: Okay. Let's pause on the search stuff, but you were talking about your search for identity. And so did that start when you were as young as 13?

Julian Kelly: I think my search for identity actually started even younger than that. I remember being in first grade and we had a family history assignment. We had to report on where our families came from and our family tree, and then we had to create these little paper cutouts of the members of our family. I remember sitting there feeling almost paralyzed with this pair of scissors in my hand, because I knew I was an adoptee.

I think that was the moment when I thought—definitively in my mind, I knew that the lineage that my adoptive parents came from was different from mine. And I had this deep desire to represent myself authentically, but I didn't know how, because I didn't have the information. So, I just remember sitting there and feeling so frustrated, because I had no story.

So many of my classmates, eventually after they finished cutting out their little paper people, they got up and they knew the stories of their families. They knew, “Oh, well, my family came from England” and “This is how our journey was, and this is what our culture involves, and these are the foods we eat, and these are…” They knew all of that stuff. And for me, I knew only about my adoptive family's heritage, but not about my own.

I was cognizant of the fact that their history was not my history. Even at that young age, I felt a tremendous hunger to just know what my story was. I remember being frustrated, because I went home and I talked to my dad and I was like, “What do you know about my adoption? What do you know about my biological parents?” And he didn't know very much. And it was really frustrating for me. I remember feeling, Why don't you know?

And then also, around the same time, it occurred to me (very young, first grade), occurred to me that I was essentially living and being raised by complete and total strangers. And it just hit me like a brick wall. All of a sudden, I felt tremendously alone in the world and isolated. And just like, Where is my tribe? Because all of my classmates, the people around me, they seem to have such a deep interconnectedness with their families. And even at that young age, I realized there was something different in the way that my parents and I interacted, and the way that I was attached to them (or not attached to them, I should say) that was different from the experience of my peers.

Haley Radke: So you were adopted out of foster care and some orphanages, so you had– There were lots of breaks in your care, before you went to them.

Julian Kelly: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Do you think that had an impact as well?

Julian Kelly: I do. I really do. And it's really interesting that you said that, because my adoptive mom, she always talks about when I came home (the first time I came home), I'd slept in the car, because I was emotionally exhausted. They said I screamed and screamed and cried and cried, and it was obviously extremely traumatic for me to just be thrown into a new world with strangers that I didn't know. And they brought me over to my grandfather's house, and my adoptive mom would try to hold me. And every time she tried to hold me, I'd bite, and I'd kick, and I'd scream. And she couldn't understand it.

That was before these wonderful books we have now, about the primal wound and everything. And she didn't understand that I'd experienced a real trauma and was literally pushing her away, and wanted nothing to do with her. So it was very evident: I stopped eating for a while and my father had to call my pediatrician. And the pediatrician's response was, “Well, children won't starve themselves. So don't worry, she'll eat eventually when she gets hungry enough.”

I remember hearing those stories, growing up with those stories of those first days (because I don't have a whole lot of memories of them). Everything about it to me now as an adult says trauma. And to me, it seems so obvious, but to them, they thought, Well, maybe she's too young to really have a traumatic experience of separation. Maybe she's too young to be cognizant of the fact that she's been moving from unstable place to unstable place. And that maybe they just had no sense of the fact that I was aware that what was happening to me didn't feel right.

Haley Radke: Some of these feelings about not attaching and the impact that trauma had on you as a little wee person—how has it, has it continued into adulthood for you?

Julian Kelly: The impact as a child was profound. It's funny, I feel guilty saying this, but I felt virtually no attachment towards my adoptive parents. I don't know if that was part of the dynamic or the trauma of being separated, but I felt nothing for them. I think I related to them as caregivers. I understood that they were my providers, and that I needed to behave in a way that was pleasing to them, because that was a matter of survival for me.

So I needed to adapt to their ways, and I think I understood that at a very young age. But as far as feeling true love and bondedness, there was none of that. Then, as I got older, I don't know, I felt such a void. I felt an incredible void. So I sought out a lot of therapy work and really dug deep and started asking the difficult questions of, How do I learn to feel attached to other people? How do I let myself become securely attached to safe people in my life?

And I did that work and it was very, very challenging. And now I feel, I do feel attachment now as an adult, deep attachment in fact. But as a child, I did not.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. I think probably there are quite a few of us that maybe have had the similar experience of not feeling connected to our adoptive parents, but so hard to say that out loud, right?

Julian Kelly: Yeah it is. It's hard to say, but I feel like people need to know that this is just the reality of our experience as adoptees. And this is a biological thing. Even as a child, I experienced feelings of, What's wrong with me? Why don't I feel attached to my parents? Why don't I? Even that young, even in the first grade, it was really evident to me that the people around me, the kids around me were far more bonded to their parents than I was. And I never really could shake the feeling that I was living with strangers. And for me, I always felt an element of distrust, and anxiety, and a sense of not fully feeling safe. But most certainly, I never really felt as though I was a full member of their tribe, even as a child.

And the older I got, the more I felt that I was different and not fully accepted because of these differences, and they were just… There were differences, I think… For example, I have a very artistic temperament and my adoptive family is very concrete. Growing up, there was a sense of (for me), I was looking for deep artistry in the world and I was seeking out new ways of self expression, yet I was living in a family where those were not their priorities. And I was lucky in the fact that they allowed me to explore my interests and they didn't try to block my creativity, but they certainly didn't understand it.

Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit more about— You said you went to therapy and that you feel like you finally learned to have a deep attachment to others. Could you talk a little bit about that and what are some of the things you've learned or done to do that?

Julian Kelly: Well, I think the number one thing, and this is going to probably sound a little bit controversial, but I was in a therapy relationship (circa 2006). And it was a really traumatic relationship for me. But in the beginning, it was very healthy. And in the beginning of the relationship, the therapist that I was seeing took on the role of surrogate mother. And in many ways, she fulfilled the fantasy that I had, that I hoped that my biological mother would be. And so I think it just opened something up in me, because for the first time, I felt like I was somebody's child (even though it was a therapy relationship).

In the beginning, I think that she, in a sense, reparented me. And so I went through these really infantile states in the therapy, and made my way through that into adulthood and through that. Just through the experience of loving her deeply and feeling deeply loved, I was able to acknowledge the fact that, Hey I can feel these feelings, I'm capable of it.

And then it just started to happen in other relationships. I realized that I had attachments, deep attachments to people, but I just wasn't even necessarily aware of it. For instance, my grandmother, she and I were very close, but we didn't talk about our feelings. And there was, it was like a muted closeness. It didn't look like what other people had with their grandmothers, so I guess on some level, I assumed that I was broken and I wasn't feeling things fully. But it was more learning to express, and learning to allow myself to be vulnerable with others. After I learned those skills, I was able to move forward, get married, and feel very, very deep attachment to my husband. And just foster that.

I have friendships that I feel tremendously connected in those relationships, but there are still some walls with my adoptive family that are very specific to them, I think, too. In part, I never felt fully accepted by them. And not just my adoptive parents, but it extended into other areas of the family. I was very, very close to my maternal side, but my paternal side just—I think they disliked me because of my racial composition (or what they assumed my racial composition was). And so I grew up hearing some disparaging remarks about people of the race, which they assumed me to be. And it was very hard for me to fit in with that. Yeah, to find my place in all of that, and to develop a solid sense of identity among people that disliked me because of my assumed racial composition.

Haley Radke: I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you experienced that. You're still in touch with your adoptive parents, then? Even though you felt detached from them, are you still in contact with them, and did they know you're searching and everything?

Julian Kelly: Yes, even though there have been so many growing pains with my adoptive parents, I'm very close to them, and I don't know if it's a trauma bond, or if it's just… I don't know, I really don't know why we continue to choose to be bonded so much, even though there are many emotional components in the relationship that are lacking.

But they were fairly supportive of my search. I think they felt a little threatened by it in the beginning. I think they were worried that they might be replaced, but after they realized that the place that they have in my life is a permanent one, they just came to terms with things. But I can sense, sometimes I feel—I don't know, it's a really strange thing. It's a really strange thing to be, in some ways more attached to my adoptive family, my adoptive parents, more so than I am to my biological family. Because, you know, I'm in reunion now, and that has been incredibly complex.

It's changed my views in many ways. I feel like the adoption system is incredibly broken. There are so many more things that we could be doing to preserve families and to protect children that we're not doing, just because of costs, just because of greed. And it's endlessly frustrating to me, that aspect of adoption. Yet at the same time, I have to acknowledge that after meeting one side of my family, I'm fairly confident that I would not have had a very good life on that end.

And it's painful for me to actually acknowledge that, but there seems to be some very serious mental illness on one side. I think that based on the experiences of my siblings, that had I stayed in that environment, that I would have shared the same fate (which it would have included really horrible abuse).

So I'm kind of in a weird place, because I'm not pro-adoption. I'm never going to advocate for that being the solution. Yet at the same time, I have to acknowledge that had I stayed in that family, I think I would not have made it to adulthood.

Haley Radke: That's something that so many of us go through in reunion. What if, the what ifs, and yeah, I really appreciate you sharing about your story and all of these pieces.

And what I'd love to shift to, you mentioned that you are artistic and in fact, you are a singer and a songwriter. And I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about your work there and how adoption and being an adoptee has impacted that.

Julian Kelly: That's a loaded question.

Haley Radke: Sorry. (laughs)

Julian Kelly: (laughs) I've been very artistic from the beginning. Art has always been my way of processing my feelings and just coping with the world, coping with really intense feeling states that adoption imposes on us (in many cases). The themes in my life, even as a child–-I had deep grief about losing my family. And it was grief that I couldn't really talk about with my adoptive parents, because we weren't close enough for that. And I don't think they would have been open to it or would have understood, even, because they have no frame of reference for it.

My way of coping with those feelings and with that grief was to put it into music, so I started to write songs. And my adoptive family realized, “Oh this kid has a knack for music.” And so I was signed to a label called Jazz Street Station when I was just 12 years old, and I started to make test recordings for them. They were writing songs for the Spice Girls and really big bands, and they needed a singer to just basically sing through the songs so that the artists would know what the songs should sound like. So, I started making those when I was 12.

And then I went to Peabody Conservatory for a little while and eventually found myself on the national tour of “Songs from the Soul” and I got to do Dreamgirls. And I've traveled the world because of musical theater. And that's been great, because it's good therapy (for one). When you're on stage pretending to be somebody else, you can push aside all your own feelings and your insecurities (or whatever is ailing you), and you can just leave it in the…I don't know, in the side wings (or whatever) for a little while. So I did that for a while until I got tired of traveling. Then I went back to school for clinical psychology, and met my husband, and I got married.

But as far as how my adoption has informed my music, it's tremendously impacted virtually every area, even down to the characters that I was willing to play. I always, even as a child… Like there would be auditions for a bunch of shows and I'd have to go to Chelsea Studios in New York to go to the auditions for the national tours and everything. And I always wanted to play Orphan Annie, because I identified with her.

As an adult, I released the music album called The Family Reject. And that was an album that was pretty much entirely about adoption. I wrote that in a period of time during which I felt really rejected by my biological family. Also, I didn't feel like a full member of my adoptive family either. So I just labeled myself as a way of taking my power back and just decided, I'm going to put all these feelings and everything that I'm experiencing in the music just to hold on to my sanity. So, music has always been a big part of my life.

Haley Radke: And when you talked about putting your grief into your songwriting, do you do that when you're writing songs for other artists as well?

Julian Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Everything that I write, I just write from a place of truth. And so whatever I'm experiencing in that moment, whatever is really “up” in my life during that time is what I write about. And a tremendous amount of my songs are about relationship loss, and abandonment, and grief, and love. Love has also been a huge theme in my music.

Haley Radke: This whole podcast series, we've been talking about Healing through Creativity. And I love to give people some kind of practical ideas of things they can do to use creativity in their own healing work. Do you have any ideas in the musical realm or songwriting that a layperson like myself could just— What could I do to sit down and I don't know… Could I just write a song? Or, I don't know… I don't wanna put words in your mouth. I'd love to hear if you have a couple ideas.

Julian Kelly: If songwriting is something that's relaxing for you, then most definitely. I think we all have a creative side. It's just that in many people, it's unexpressed. So I would just say, just pick up a pen and a piece of paper and just start writing. Just let it flow, even if it doesn't make sense. And then, eventually, if you feel the need to make something cohesive out of it, you can pull the little gems out of whatever comes out.

And then what I do is I sit down at the piano (and I just almost feel like the music is writing itself when I do it). But I just channel my emotions. I just play what I'm feeling like, I don't know… I don't know how to say it—it's almost like I let the music personify me. For the space of time that I'm sitting at the piano, I become the music and it flows out of me.

And that's how I do it, and I do that from a place of non judgment. So, I think that always helps, if you can be creative, but be creative in a way that it's a safe space for you, to not put a lot of judgements on your work. And to just let it be whatever it is and really respect whatever you create just for what it is. I don't know if that helps, but…

Haley Radke: It's totally helpful, and I really appreciate what you were saying about the non judgment, because I've been talking to other artists that do visual artistry, and they're like, “You're not painting for— to go in a gallery, you're just painting for yourself.” So similarly, this is a good example of that.

Julian Kelly: When I write music, sometimes I think about that. Sometimes I think, How is this going to be received by the world, by the community, by… If I'm writing for another artist, is this in line with their image? Those are things that go through my head.

But for the most part, they're fleeting thoughts and I always come back to a sense of I have to write from a place of truth and I have to express what's true for me. And it's something that I do for myself, really. And it always makes me happy to find out that my music has impacted other people in a positive way. I'm always happy to hear that.

But at its core, it's just me really learning, in a sense, how to just be in the world. And just—music is my place where I can just go and exist without judgment.

Haley Radke: That sounds pretty good. I like that. Exist without judgment.

Sorry. I'm just having this moment where I'm like, That sounds so peaceful and nice. And yeah, it's good.

Julian Kelly: Sometimes it's pretty angry. (laughs)

Haley Radke: (laughs) Okay.

Julian Kelly: Nope, really. Sometimes, I'll have a bad day and I'll sit down at the piano and it’s just vitriol. But it comes out, and it's authentic, and then it flows through. The music, I think, gives it a rhythm and it moves. So things don't really get stuck for me. When I put them to music, it's whatever I'm feeling, it just— When the song is done, it's done. It's done. And then I just move on to something else.

Haley Radke: I love talking about this with you, because I love music, but I don't feel like I'm super musically inclined or, I… But anyway, that's so cool. Interesting.

Okay. Is there anything else that you want to talk about in this area? In your album, like The Family Reject, or your songwriting, or anything else?

Julian Kelly: I guess I feel like it's important to say that being adopted has definitely really, really impacted the way that I express myself, I think, because I felt so pressured into being the person that my adoptive family wanted me to be. Music was a place where I could go to be who I really was. And as adoptees, I think it's really important for us to just find that space where we can just be authentically us.

Haley Radke: So true. Okay. So before we go to recommended resources, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to just tell us, what do you wish that most people knew about adoption?

And, before we started recording, you mentioned that we've had a lot of adoptee suicides lately, even the deaths of some young adoptees. Can you talk about that a little bit? And, again, what do you wish most people knew about adoption, that they don’t?

Julian Kelly: First and foremost, I wish that most people understood that adoption is not something that should be taken lightly. I'm sure you've heard this before, because so many people say it in the adoption community, but it's really true. That for a child to be placed for adoption, that means there was a loss. And I wish that people knew how to really respect that loss. And how to understand that we carry that loss with us for our lifetime, for the duration of our lives.

And I think that, yes, the adoption system is broken and there are so many other things that I wish people knew about adoption. But if I just had to narrow it down to a few things, I would say, I wish they knew to respect our feelings, whatever they are/ And to not impose feelings of gratitude and all of the things that people say we should feel about our adoptions. I've heard so many people say to me throughout my lifetime that I should feel grateful. And I wish that those people would instead let me feel how I feel. And let other adoptees feel how we feel, and understand that our experiences are ours to name. They’re our narratives, and they’re our lives, and it's for us to define. So that's one thing that I really, really wish people knew about adoption.

And the other thing I wish that our community could find a way to accept that we all have these really complex stories and experiences. And all of our opinions are unique to our experiences and they are so nuanced. But as adoptees, it's so important for us to come together and to support one another, so that we can make certain that some of the really terrible things that happened to us don't happen to what may be the next generation of adoptees.

So I feel that it's important for us as adoptees, whenever we can, to put our differences (the small differences) aside. And to come together for the common good, so that we can really, really create a lasting legacy and change the face of adoption as it stands today. Because so much damage is happening. There are so many adoptee suicides. There's so many children that are being killed by their adopters. And we know adoption better than anyone.

Yeah. Those are the two things that I really would say are most important. There's a lot of divisiveness I see in our community a lot, and it's really heartbreaking, because I think that if we could all agree on (not everything), but just a few things, we would be strong enough together to enact the changes that we need to protect our future.

Haley Radke: Earlier you were talking about the importance of family preservation, and I agree with all of those things that you just said. And the more we can work together for family preservation, I think we can change things, too. Yeah, I think we're on the same page.

Julian Kelly: Yes. Family preservation is so understated in our society, in general. It's almost like a concept that so few people I think are even aware of as an option. And I feel like as adoptees, for sure, that should be number one on our agenda. But I know there's a lot of things that we don't agree on, with IVF— And there's just so many opinions, but I think it's really important for us to all find a way to come together.

Haley Radke: Definitely. Thank you for that. Such wise words. I'd love to do our recommended resources now. And so, I want to recommend that you go and listen to Julian's music, The Family Reject, and she's got some other albums and they're on iTunes. I've been listening to them on Spotify, The Family Reject. And my boys have been listening, too. And I also noticed—(they're 3 and 5, so they just love music, too).

Julian Kelly: Aww!

Haley Radke: Yes. I also hadn't mentioned this yet, but you have a documentary and I was watching it on YouTube, Almost Family: A True Adoption Story. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Julian Kelly: I felt like it was important to document my experience. And the more I sought my birth family and ran into obstacles and met with other adoptees, the more I discovered that there are so many things that are broken in the adoption world. And the documentary was just my way of— It's going to sound strange, but almost eulogizing myself, and my experience?

I felt like I was doing something important when I was searching for my family and my identity. And I know that there are many adoptees out there that may never find their families. And I wanted also non adopted persons to see the impact, to see what it looks like for an adoptee who is trying to put the pieces back together.

It's just basically the story of my life. In the documentary, I mentioned my best friend of 23 years was also an adoptee and she committed suicide. And filming that documentary, I think, was also in part my way of making sense of that. I think it could be helpful for other adoptees who have similar experiences or just want to take a peek at what somebody else has been through, in adoption.

Haley Radke: It is really interesting to hear your story, and as you say, you weave some other stories (like your best friend), and it gives us more language and more words to describe our experiences. So many of us, our trauma is preverbal, and we just don't have words.

So any of these things like the podcast, your documentary, your album that's specifically adoption related—all of those things just help give us language to talk about adoption, especially with other people who have no idea what we're talking about.

Julian Kelly: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. So good. So good. Please, what do you want to recommend to us?

Julian Kelly: The adoptee that I would really recommend is Dominique Crenn. She is an amazing chef. In 2016, she won the Best Female Chef in the World award. She's been nominated for James Beard, and she is the only female chef in the U.S. with two Michelin stars. And she has an amazing restaurant in San Francisco, called Atelier Crenn. And her story is incredible. I don't know anything about her personal adoption views, but she was adopted at 18 months. She was in France. And she refers to her restaurant as her home. She refers to her cooking as her artistry and for me (just witnessing as an outsider some for work), it just seems like it's so deeply informed by the complexities of family that she experienced due to being an adoptee.

So I would definitely recommend that anyone who is in the San Francisco area, go check out her food, but if you can't do that, she is on season two of Chef's Table on Netflix. And she's also on Facebook. I would recommend just checking out her way of expressing her complexities and her feelings, with food.

Haley Radke: That sounds amazing. And you're telling me this now, and I remember I was talking with Anne Heffron (and she's an adoptee). She wrote You Don't Look Adopted. And we were talking about how adoption is everywhere. And she was just like, “I was sick of it one day.” She's, “Oh my gosh, adoption is everywhere,” or whatever. So she's, Okay, I'm just going to lay down. I'm just going to watch a show. She turned on Chef's Table and it was her episode.

Julian Kelly: Oh….

Haley Radke: She's, Oh my gosh, even the chefs are adopted. So it's everywhere. It's everywhere.

But that's such a good recommendation. Thank you.

Julian Kelly: You're welcome.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much. So good to talk to you. Can you let us know where our listeners can connect with you online?

Julian Kelly: Yes, I am very easy to find. You can connect with me on Facebook. Type in my name, Julian Kelly, and I'm happy to add people to my personal page or my music page. I don't care. I'm just really lax. Most easily found on Facebook.

I also have a YouTube channel and I have a blog. I blog every few months, but there are some pretty good resources on that blog, especially for people who have experienced secondary rejection in their adoption reunions. So, if that's something that anybody would be interested in reading about, my blog is called I Am a Cherry Blossom in Spring. And I believe I sent you a link to it.

Haley Radke: Yes, I will put links to all of those things in the show notes.

Julian Kelly: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much. It's been just so delightful talking with you and we have different stories, but of course I feel some parallels with you as well.

Julian Kelly: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Haley Radke: Oh, you guys, Julian is so amazing. Go check out her music. She has an amazing voice. You are going to be impressed. I promise.

I have a new thing. I started a monthly newsletter. I started it a couple months ago, but the first one just went out last week. So “monthly,” that's, loose, in quotation marks. If you want to stay caught up with what's happening with me and the podcast, head over to adopteeson.com/newsletter, and you can sign up there.

I want to thank my incredible patrons, who have literally made it possible for me to continue bringing you this podcast, every single week. A giant thank you to each and every one of you who've partnered with me to share adoptee voices around the world. I couldn't do it without you.

If you are passionate about helping adoptees and want to move our voices forward, come and partner with me: adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. I take monthly pledges through this website called Patreon, that helps to pay for the cost of hosting and producing the show for you. And I have some great thank you gifts. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details.

Would you tell one person about the show the next time you're with an adoptee support group, or your therapist, or your adoptee friend? Or your online adoptee group? Would you share the show? Tell them why it's a must listen and let them know exactly how you like to listen to podcasts. Do you listen when you're commuting, when you're working out, when you're walking your dog, washing the dishes? Share the show and tell them how amazing and portable podcasts are.

Last thing: next week, I'm going to hit pause on season 3, and we're going to have a break for a special healing episode with Lesli Johnson, where we talk about coming out of the fog. Thank you for listening.

Let's talk again, next Friday.

47 Laura - The Adoption Museum Project

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/47

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is season 3, episode 8: Laura. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I introduce you to Laura Callen, the founder of the Adoption Museum Project.

Laura gives the most vivid recounting of a triggering situation that only another adopted person could understand. And we talk about that just really simple topic of dignity and justice in adoption.

With our season 3 theme of healing through creativity, Laura explains some of the different experimental ways she and her team are exploring the topic of adoption through arts and culture. We wrap up with recommended resources. And as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Laura Callen. Welcome, Laura.

Laura Callen: Thank you. It's really great to be here.

Haley Radke: Well, I would love if you would start off as all of my guests do, with sharing your story with us.

Laura Callen: My adoption was a pre-arranged adoption. So this was in 1969 and my first mother had arranged through Catholic Social Services to relinquish me for adoption. And this was in Michigan. And what I learned—and this was later on in the story as I was doing my search—but learned that I spent the first two weeks in foster care. And my understanding is that this was an individual woman who would foster babies in her home. And I spent, yeah, the first two weeks there and I have a letter that she wrote about me at that time. And that's the evidence that I have about those two weeks.

And it's still a mystery to me, why I was in foster care for those two weeks, because the adoption was pre-arranged. But I did go home to my adoptive parents. And I grew up with two brothers, so my older brother by two years and then a younger brother by five years. We were all adopted from different families and the kind of— Just to briefly share the narrative, I was told that I was adopted when I was five, and I have a really vivid memory of that moment. And I don't have a whole lot of memories from childhood, but this is one that I have always retained that my older brother and I were told that we were adopted (and this was a conversation with my mother).

And the reason that I know I was five, is because my younger brother was going to be coming home and so there needed to be an explanation for that. And it was a brief conversation and that was really the end of the conversation about adoption in my home, in my growing up. So it was not something that was discussed and I learned not to bring it up.

And not because it was said by my parents not to discuss it (and I think many adoptees have this experience), but in all the ways that we learn how not to ask questions and what things are out of bounds, I learned not to ask about this. So, I grew up not talking to my brothers about adoption, not ever meeting another adopted person (at least that I was aware of). And into my twenties, I didn't really consciously think about adoption in terms of what that meant for me, consciously wondering about that, talking to other people. And in my twenties, I did decide that perhaps adoption had something to do with who I am, and how I navigate the world, and how I have relationships, and make choices.

And so I decided to search. And I was really fortunate; I know that searching can often be a really long and painful process. And I was really fortunate to pretty quickly find both my first mother and first father. I think it took a little less than a year with the help of a Search Angel. I was able– I reached out to them, got in touch, and I learned that both of them (but at different points in time, unbeknownst to each other), had filed consent forms with the adoption agency.

And those consent forms, while they didn't give full identifying information, did indicate that if I was interested in finding them, they would be open to contact with me. So that psychological burden of not knowing whether they wanted to know me was removed. And that was really important, of course, for me. So I proceeded to reach out.

We had those first very thrilling, but awkward, and terrifying conversations on the phone. And I have remained in touch with my first father. We don't communicate very often, but we are in touch with each other. And in fact, I saw him last year in person and it was really lovely, actually.

And when I met my first mother, this is now… gosh, 16 years ago? (something like that) We continued to develop a really strong relationship. And we've worked at maintaining our relationship, and then navigating that. So I am certainly in touch with her. She actually moved from where she was living to where I am living about five years ago. So she lives about a mile down the road and is very involved in my life and my family's life. And, you know, what I can say beyond that is, I continue to actively experience being an adopted person.

And it's a cliché, perhaps, at this point, that we've all heard, that adoption is this lifelong experience. And it's also just really true (at least for me), and that there have been these points in my life where adoption has surfaced in a really big way that has meant that I've had to re-engage with it. And address whatever piece of it is up in that moment.

Haley Radke: Can you give an example of that?

Laura Callen: [laughs] I gave a very recent example of that yesterday. I have two children. They are my biological children. My son is 10 and my daughter is 8. And we've been talking about pets for a little while now. And my husband and I managed to put it off, and finally knew that it was time to say yes to a pet. And we decided that we were going to say yes to a couple of sweet pet mice, because that was better than a flying squirrel or a chinchilla.

So, I think somewhere in the back of my mind, I knew that having pets come into my home was going to trigger me in some way, but I didn't really give it a lot of thought. And my husband and my daughter came home with these two mice and I just slipped into this place, that I was really aware that this was touching that wound, right? And I just felt incredibly sad.

And I'm sure that my kids [were] somewhat puzzled by my reaction and what was going on. And I was trying to make it seem like it was not a big deal. But to be really specific, when we were trying to figure out who was going to actually go and pick up the mice and my kids had some other things that they were interested in doing that day, and they said, “Well, how about if you just go and get the mice, daddy? And we'll stay here?” And I was outraged by that. And I thought, You can't just say, “Bring me some mice.” And then they just appear in our house, like you've ordered them.

And it was just this— a reaction that was much bigger than it should have been. And of course, they're asking this very simple question and I'm seeing it through this lens of adoption. And then a couple hours later, my son is playing with the mice. And they have that plastic ball that you can put the mice inside of and then they can roll around inside of it. Truly one of the highlights of having pet mice!

And so my son is trying to put the mouse into the ball, and this tiny, furry, quivering creature keeps trying to climb back out. And my son keeps trying to put the mouse in, but he keeps trying to climb back out. And my heart is just breaking, and I'm saying to my son, “He doesn't want to go in the ball. You can't force him to go in the ball. Stop putting him in the ball.” Behind these words, right? Are just these intense feelings of me and what I imagine I might have been feeling or what other adopted people might be feeling when we don't have those words, and we're so vulnerable. So, that was just yesterday.

Haley Radke: I think that's the best description of a trigger I've ever heard. I mean, the most thorough. When you started, I was like, I don't understand. But I feel it. I feel it in my stomach right now. I started to just get feeling sicker and sicker as you kept describing it. And I totally understand. Isn't it amazing? Those little things that no one else in the world would know why you're feeling that way. But when you describe it like that, I'm like, Oh…

Did you share with your husband or your kids, why you were having that reaction?

Laura Callen: I haven't yet talked to my husband or my kids directly about my reaction, but I plan to. I've been practicing over the years to give myself pause and just give myself some time to think it through and reflect on, Gosh, what was going on? That's so interesting. And to also let myself feel whatever those feelings are before I want to engage with my family, or with a friend, or whoever it is, to talk about it.

This just happening yesterday, I figure, Yeah, sometime in the next few days I'll circle back and I'll have a conversation that I've had many times with my husband (and even with my kids) about this kind of process. So it is something that I try to do in my family. It's actually one of the ways that my first mother and I navigate our relationship, is by having this kind of very honest conversation about whatever has come up. And it's not always really heavy. Sometimes it's something we can laugh about, butI find that sometimes it feels a little bit like I've divorced myself.

But pushing myself to go back and to talk this through, particularly with the people who are very close to me has really been very helpful, but I do need to take some time, first, for myself.

Haley Radke: Okay, that sounds like a very healthy strategy. Can you tell us, how did you get to this place, where you can do that? Where you can pause, and look at the situation, and think, Okay, what is this bringing out for me? And having those steps and giving yourself permission to feel the feelings. That sounds like a really healthy place to be in.

Laura Callen: I have the ability to do that, to be really skillful with it. It has been very hard earned. Even though I can do it sometimes, I still don't do it all the time. And I screw up in so many ways, and regret so many moments. You know, what I can say is that it has only been in the last two years that I feel like I have been able to develop a couple of new skills that support me.

I would say that is largely a result of a couple of things: therapy since my twenties. When I did first decide to consciously think about and work on my adoption experience, and working on the Adoption Museum Project, and being diagnosed with dysthymia (which is a chronic depression), and choosing to take medication for that. And that was a profound step for me (not just the diagnosis), because I, in the end, had to diagnose myself, which is a whole, really difficult process to have gone through after years of therapy.

When you were reaching out to people who are professionals, and trained, and you're trusting that they see you and will offer you the right kind of help. But, once I realized what was going on for me (and had been going on for me for years and years, most of my life), and decided to take that step of taking medication, it was like the third leg of the stool. And it's really transformed my life.

Haley Radke: I'm so glad for you, that you've figured out that's something that will help you. And “the third leg of the stool,” that's a good picture for it. Yeah. So just the last two years then is when you feel like all of these things have come into place? Sorry, I should say all of the skills– you were talking about developing these skills to navigate different triggers, and all the special things that we adopted people have.

Laura Callen: Yeah, I think the therapy gave me a lot of practice with being able to develop a vocabulary around my ideas, and my feelings, and just being able to take a moment or an experience, and kind of run it through a mental filter. And to be able to go back and analyze what was going on in that moment.

And certainly just logging hours and hours, being listened to and heard by, seen (mostly) by somebody who, for the most part, could really understand what I was talking about. So I think those are some of the ways that therapy was really helpful to me. And the Museum Project has been— and most of this, really, I can only say in retrospect, how it has been, right? Because when I started, I had no idea what it was going to become, and what it would mean for me personally, but the work has really helped me get more clear on what I believe and think about adoption.

It has been a way that out of necessity, I've developed my own voice, and had to articulate what are my opinions, and what is my point of view, and how am I going to interact with other people with respect to this topic.

Haley Radke: So you're talking about the Adoption Museum Project. Can you just tell us your relationship to that and what it is?

Laura Callen: I founded the Adoption Museum Project about six years ago. And this experiment (it is a giant experiment, because we're making it up. Nothing like this exists). The idea is that we can create space. And we talk about that in sort of two ways: of course, literal, physical space, as well as notional space, right? The space where our ideas and our feelings live.

But the idea of the project is that we need spaces where everybody, the public, whether you have adoption connection or not, that we need spaces where we can fully explore the whole story. And the whole story of adoption is something that we have to have if we're going to have justice in adoption.

This was really created as a social justice organization in the form of a museum, an institution that is developing arts and culture projects and programs. So that's the form that we're choosing to use to contribute to the ultimate goal of justice in adoption.

Haley Radke: Can you unpack that a little bit? What do you mean by justice in adoption?

Laura Callen: That small matter of justice in adoption? That's such a huge, complicated idea, isn't it? And all I can offer is my point of view and what the Adoption Museum Project sees around that. And I have incredible respect for many, many others who do work that is related to justice within adoption.

And there is, of course, a long history of people who've been involved in that work. And for my co-conspirators out there, when we talk about justice in adoption, we're referring to the idea that everybody involved in adoption should experience dignity and justice. So, one of the first kind of a premise in there that I want to point to, is that we believe that there is a place for some kind of social practice like adoption.

And there are people within the adoption community who are working to completely dismantle adoption, or to abolish adoption. And I think that's a completely valid objective for people to be fighting for, and a very valid point of view. It's not the one that we have. I think that there will always be some situation where a child does, in fact, need a family who is not their own biological family.

And I would want for there to be some solution for that child. So, part of our belief is that something like adoption needs to exist for those very rare situations, but it needs to be done in almost a completely different kind of way. And we-– you know, I think about this as a sort of a two step process, that we need to first reckon with how we have practiced adoption and how we currently practice adoption. And then we need to redesign.

And I think you cannot figure out what is that better way until you have first looked back at how we've been doing this, at the history of this practice, and we also sit with what's happening right now. So this idea of reckoning and redesigning is part of what we believe needs to happen, and then again going back to the way we see justice and adoption. And I talk about, “It's justice for everybody.” And by that, we mean: adopted people who are the most impacted, justice also for first and birth parents who we know are still quite silenced when we talk about adoption, and also justice when it comes to the parents who are raising adopted people.

I know that when I talk with folks (particularly folks who are activists in adoption), the idea that adoptive parents would experience some kind of injustice, it's really hard for some people to imagine that, or to agree with that, or see that. And so it's a really sensitive one, and so I want to explain what I mean by that. And then I want to go back and make sure that there is proper emphasis on adopted people and first birth parents.

But there are situations where adoptive parents are doing everything possible to move through this process in a thoughtful and ethical way. And other players in the system are doing things that are illegal, or unethical, or preventing the adoptive parents or prospective adoptive parents from doing what they know, and believe, and want to be doing as the right thing.

And then I also just believe that whatever happened through that process to adopt, once that child is placed in a family, we have every obligation to support that family. And I think there are still many ways in which adoptive families (and so now this includes, right, the adopted person, but especially when the child is young, it's the adoptive parents who are really on the front line of navigating services, and supports, and that sort of thing), but ways that they are not receiving the support that they need and ways that they are being stigmatized. I think that there are ways in which adoptive parents are harmed.

Now, I don't say that all of these three groups are having the same equal experience. I think adopted people and first birth parents are disproportionately harmed. And again, adopted people most directly. I don't think that we need to say everybody is on some kind of equal footing when it comes to who's having the least just experience.

I think, just objectively speaking, we know that adopted people and first birth parents are harmed in ways that adopted parents never will be. And there are absolutely obligations and responsibilities that adoptive parents have because of their power, privilege, and often because of their wealth, and in other ways.

But our view of getting to this redesigned practice is that it can never happen unless adoptive parents and prospective adoptive parents are part of it. I mean, you can't have systemic change in this system if you do not include that group. I won't go into the long lists here. I think probably your listeners are very familiar with it.

You could construct and then we have a long list of all the ways that adopted people are harmed—from lack of access to their birth records, to lack of citizenship, to disproportionately struggling with mental health, to not having their full identity, to all of the harms that adopted people experience.

And then we could go over and we could say here are all the ways that first parents are harmed, from coercion, to contact agreements that are not honored, to their struggles with mental health, and so on. And then again, moving over to adoptive parents. And I think—and this is really difficult to do, but if we can step back and look at this as a system that is made up of all these different actors, and what is going to have to change in order to change the system? What do each one of these actors need to do differently?

It's one of the reasons that the work that we're doing with the Adoption Museum Project is engaging, involving, speaking to, working with everybody who's involved in adoption. And that goes beyond, of course, adopted people, first parents, and adoptive parents, right? It includes (ultimately, as we move forward and have the resources), it includes agency professionals, and it includes policy makers, and the really long list of people who are involved in the practice of adoption.

Haley Radke: So as you're looking at this big—it's a big goal to reform the system, but looking at the Adoption Museum Project and the focus on expressing these things through arts and culture. And we've, you know, have this series on creativity and healing through creativity.

Can you talk a little bit about that? What are some of the ways that you are educating people about the history of adoption and about how adopted people are affected by the citizenship issue that's happening in the U.S. right now and et cetera. Can you talk a little bit about that in the creative space, the work you're doing there?

Laura Callen: And I do want to say as well that we have a very clear vision of what we believe should happen in adoption. And we also know that reforming the system, redesigning the system does not happen single handedly by anyone.

We're really clear that we have our piece and our contribution that we want to make, and even that work is highly collaborative. We don't do anything, really, entirely on our own. So we're just one of many individuals, organizations, coalitions that would have to work together to get to systemic change.

And our contribution is within this museum form, environments. And you know, “Why arts and culture?” Because these are different ways in to the adoption idea, to the adoption experience, that these are ways, when we're being our creative selves, that we can open up to ideas in a different kind of way. We can actually imagine what a redesigned practice of adoption might look like.

We also define creative space in arts and culture really broadly. For us, it's any form of human expression. And really, I think there are many museums today that could use that same definition. And we tend to use language that says, “This is an arts museum,” or “This is a science museum,” or we use that term, “culture.” And I think that tends to narrow the different types of activities and experiences that could happen inside of a museum space and again, in many cases, what is already happening inside of lots of museums.

So, it's exciting that any form of expression could be used to enter these questions about adoption, and sit with them, and explore them. So, whether that's visual art, or it's an oral history, or it's a panel discussion, or it's a dance performance, it's a dialogue…all of that counts. And all of these are different ways in, and so we've been experimenting, you know, in our six years of doing 20 plus projects. And we've tried to intentionally develop projects that use different formats so that we can learn, Oh what happens if we do a—have people visit an exhibition and then have a follow up workshop? Okay, now let's see what happens if we just do the public program part. Okay, now let's see what happens if we do something just online.

So we're always looking to experiment with these different formats. And each one offers different opportunities for people. And because adoption is such a— has extreme diversity on every level and affects such an extraordinary diversity of people, it just follows that you would have to be, over time, offering a really diverse range of types of activities and experiences that would feel inviting and interesting to people.

Our upcoming project is happening in Minneapolis. There's going to be an event on December 12th in Minneapolis called Conjuring Other Ways Home. And this is a culminating event. The series of three workshops that were done in November and the topic is Black Adoption. And we're doing this project in collaboration with an amazing organization, Black Table Arts, which is run by a genius artist adoptee named Keno Evol. He's the founder and director of Black Table Arts. The workshops, we’re inviting anyone who identifies as Black and has an experience of adoption to attend a workshop and write poetry (specifically) with guidance and support from the community and from teaching artists.

And then the event that's happening on the 12th at the Illusion Theater in Minneapolis is going to be a community gathering. It's open to the public, including the family, kin, friends, allies of people who were in the workshops, and people who have an experience of Black adoption. And there'll be readings, and a panel discussion, and a chance for dialogue. So that's happening December 12th.

And we are in the midst of developing our next ambitious project, which is called History Lab. And History Lab is going to launch in the spring of 2018, and this is the beginning of a really exciting, enormous project to create an online public history of adoption, told through a lens of social justice. And we are going to start with something—

Haley Radke: I have goosebumps!

Laura Callen: Yeah, we're just so thrilled to be collaborating with so many brilliant people on this project, and how it started, and conversations with Ellen Herman (who created the Adoption History Project). But we're beginning with just one small piece that we're calling History Lab. And we felt that part of what we wanted to contribute with this particular history of adoption, because of course there are so many histories out there and each one is incredibly valuable. And we're doing something unique with ours. But we really wanted to begin by inviting the public to participate and to start talking with us about what could be in this history and to begin contributing even their artifacts.

Although to begin, we can't accept physical artifacts, but we'll be inviting people to submit descriptions and images. And so the idea is to begin by hearing from the public, and in particular, people who've experienced adoption. And when you become a member of the History Lab (it's free), you can start to work with us to really shape what this history is going to be about.

Haley Radke: You're talking about this and you're just glowing and you're so excited. Oh my goodness.

I'm so excited to see what this develops into, Laura. I mean, it's incredible. That's something that I feel like is so lacking in all of the activism space is just— I mean, we really only know about what's happening right now. And then a lot of us have heard about the 60s Scoop, but I don't know even personally, who started adoption and what did it used to look like, and who started foster care, and all of those things. So, I love that. I love that.

Laura Callen: Yeah, we have a real focus at the Adoption Museum Project on context, right? And so we talk a lot about the importance of the personal story, which you are right in that zone, right? One of the folks who is helping to surface individual stories of adoption, and we have to have that, and we need more.

And so there's this need for personal stories to continue to come to the surface. And at the same time, we feel that putting those stories in context is really also essential, and that the two really need to go hand in hand. But as we look out there in the big wide world of adoption, there's very little context. And for us, context is— Certainly there's historical context, and that's what the History Lab is focused on, but there's also the system. So, What is the system of adoption? Hm! Who's involved in that? How does that work? That kind of understanding is really missing, as well as the context of all these other social forces that are connected to adoption.

So adoption does not exist on its own in some sort of separate universe. It's inextricably connected to many, many other social issues and ideas, whether that's reproductive justice, or it's immigration, or it's race... The list is long. And so we think about, How can you architect an understanding of adoption that really just honors and values these personal stories, but in context? And we can't start working on all of those pieces at the same time, so we decided we're going to start with history.

But ultimately, and through our work going forward, we hold that view, that it has to be that we understand the history, the system, and the social forces. This is, of course, very long term work, and it's work that we will do with others, but we have to see that whole story before we'll fully understand what we are grappling with and what we need to fix.

We are going to be kicking off our end of the year fundraising campaign. It's called “The Whole Story Campaign,” and we're inviting everyone who believes in this work that we're doing to contribute at whatever level feels meaningful for them. So we will be sharing information and links through emails and through our newsletter and Facebook. Watch for that, and support us if you can.

Haley Radke: Well, for recommended resources, I mean we've already talked about this on the show before, but your newsletter, “The Adoption Museum Project Newsletter,” is incredible. I love how you find ways to highlight so many different things. So, events that are happening, or articles that have come out, or books, or just different people in the adoption community.

It's so well constructed. I just— I love it. I look forward to it. There's not many emails I look forward to receiving. Unsubscribe all the time, right? But yours is not one of them. I love getting it. So, of course we'll have links to all of these things, but it's super easy to subscribe to your newsletter, you just go to adoptionmuseumproject.org. And there's places all over that you can click on, just type your email in and get that.

So I'd recommend that people do that for sure. And check out the campaign, “The Whole Story” campaign. What a great name. Love that. Okay, what would you like to recommend to us?

Laura Callen: I now have to choose from my long list. I guess I'll have to put the things I can't say on air into my next newsletter. But I would recommend any poem. So I know that perhaps that's not playing by the rules, but I just find poetry, really any poem, to be incredibly valuable as a way of opening ourselves up to new ideas and possibilities.

It's almost like this way of letting yourself get disoriented and confused, but also a way that you can feel really seen and heard through poetry that I feel like no other form lets you do. But I will say that the most recent poet I have come across that I'm just, really have been captivated by, she's an adoptee, Marci Calabretta Cancio-Bello. And I just picked up her book, Hour of the Ox, and it's just gorgeous.

I finished, not too long ago, a book, The Next American Revolution, which is by Grace Lee Boggs. Just beloved social activist, and she's from my hometown of Detroit, Michigan. And I just find it incredibly inspiring reading for folks who are thinking about How can we change unjust systems?

I'll also suggest Rise magazine, and I came across this one not too long ago as well and I was just blown away. This is a magazine that is created by and for families whose children are in the child welfare system. And it's just an incredible window into an experience that I think we all… You know, we don't really think about very deeply. And to hear the experience written by the people who are having it is really, really an important perspective to hold.

Can I give one more?

Haley Radke: Yeah. I just want you to send me the whole list now because I just, these are so good.

Laura Callen: I do want to just try to support, one more time, the Adoptee Rights Campaign. We just did a project a couple of weeks ago supporting the work to change the law so that all adoptees receive citizenship. And there's still work to be done. This is not a foregone conclusion that somebody's going to just figure this out and come to the right conclusion and grant adoptee citizenship.

Haley Radke: Can you describe what you did, that project?

Laura Callen: The project was called Arts in Advocacy: Citizenship for All Adoptees. It was a very collaborative project. We were one of three organizations that were developing it. Magna Citizen Studios is the other organization, which is run by HyunJu Chappell, and she is an adoptee, and the Adoptee Rights Campaign. And it was a full day program of different activities at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts in San Francisco. So we had a screen printing workshop, where you could choose one of three screen print designs (designed by HyunJu), and they were about adoptee citizenship. There was a really incredible lineup of speakers, and poets, and educating people about the current issue with adoptee citizenship, and giving historical background, and sharing personal stories.

There was an exhibition, as well, created by HyunJu. So this was a day where it was open to the public. Anyone could drop in and they could learn about and engage with this in whatever way felt right to them. And it was just extraordinary to bring adoption and to bring this particular issue into a public space that would otherwise never have considered adoption or addressed this issue.

Haley Radke: Well, you sent me a little video clip that I just watched and it was so interesting. And one of the little snippet pieces was someone sticking this thing onto the wall, like a deckle. And it was just I think the words were “First deportation, because of this.”

I love that you invited the public. Most people don't know that there is this group of adoptees who were adopted internationally, came into the United States, and don't have citizenship. How do you not know that? It's mind boggling to me. Now, I'm up in Canada, so I am removed from this a bit, but yet I'm just, I'm heartbroken for my brothers and sisters down there who don't even have citizenship.

Laura Callen: Yeah, It's stunning, the lack of awareness of this issue. And I count myself among those people who didn't have any idea that this was the case, up until six months ago, eight months ago or so. And that is absolutely more than half the battle, simply making people aware that 5,000+ U.S. adoptees adopted from other countries do not have citizenship today.

And the moment you tell somebody that, they're shocked: “Can't believe it, that's just wrong. That needs to be changed.” So it's not that it would be hard to persuade someone that this is an injustice and it should be fixed. But, like so many issues, it takes a lot of work to move people from, “That's wrong,” to actually taking action and getting involved in doing something about it.

So we were just really honored to be invited to participate in this program and contribute our piece to developing awareness, because certainly people came who were connected to adoption, but part of why we love to do programs in other venues, and museum spaces, and other cultural spaces that are open to the public. Because that's what happens: people walk by, they step in. And they would have never otherwise thought about adoption, but now they're learning about it.

I would just really encourage all of your listeners to learn a little bit about this issue and do what they can to support changing the law. You can go to adopteerightscampaign.org and find everything there that you need.

But, and this is just one of many, many, many issues that needs to be looked at, thought about, and figured out. I’m not suggesting that adoptee citizenship is the most important issue over others in adoption. This is not a competition.

I think we need to, again, begin by understanding the whole story. And then, I think, what calls you, what draws you, what are you most interested and passionate about working on, go do that. Because there is no lack of need and there's a lot of need and support that's required.

Haley Radke: What a perfect way to wrap up: a call to action with your own passions in mind. I love that. Thank you so much, Laura. What a great conversation.

Can you let us know how we can connect with you online?

Laura Callen: Absolutely. So you can go to adoptionmuseumproject.org, that's our website, learn about the work that we're doing, contribute to our campaign.

You could email me directly, I would love to hear from anyone, laura@adoptionmuseumproject.org. And we do have a Facebook page, so I invite you to go there and follow us.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for your time. I've so appreciated talking with you today, and hearing a part of your story, and a part of your healing as well.

And thank you for the good work that you're doing with the Adoption Museum Project.

Laura Callen: Thank you so much, Haley. This has been an honor. And for the part that you're doing, right? We're all gonna make this happen together.

Haley Radke: Yes, amen to that. I don't know about you, but my to-be-read pile is getting taller and I'm having a hard time keeping up with all of these amazing recommendations that my guests have been sharing lately.

I know some of you have been feeling brave and feisty during the month of November, which is National Adoption Awareness Month. And I know this because my Twitter feed is full of incredible tweets from adoptees. Last week, I told you to check out the #FlipTheScript, but this week, make sure you're following the #WeDie.

Yes, We Die, as in death. There's a Lost Daughters article up with an explanation behind these chosen words. And I'm sure this won't come as a surprise. It's about adoptee suicide rates and also the ways our identities figuratively die. I'll put a link to that article in the show notes. And if you search the hashtag on Twitter, you'll see some really incredible advocacy work being done there. So that's #WeDie.

This episode is brought to you by my incredibly generous Patreon supporters. If you feel that the work I'm doing with this podcast is valuable, I would be so honored to have you as a partner with me. I'm a mere 11 supporters away from being able to hire an editor. And Patreon is a crowdfunding website that takes monthly pledges to help me sustain this podcast and all the details are on adopteeson.com/partner. There's some rewards for becoming a patron, including a secret adoptees-only Facebook group.

I have had a ridiculously painful week and I don't want to commemorate all the reasons for that here in the show. But I shared in the secret Facebook group some of what was happening and the love and support from you, my amazing friends, it's rendered me speechless. I'm in your debt. Thank you so much. Your support means so much to me. I mean, truly.

Okay, last thing. Today, would you share the show with just one friend? Maybe it's a fellow adoptee who's been struggling with being triggered lately. When you meet them next for coffee, share Laura's and my story with them. And ask for their phone and you can show them how to download the show.

Thank you for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

49 [Healing Series] Coming out of the Fog

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/49

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today we tackle coming out of the fog. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome back to adoptees on Lesli Johnson. Lesli is a fellow adoptee and licensed therapist who works to help other adoptees connect the dots of their story and live authentically. Welcome, Lesli.

Lesli Johnson: Thanks Haley. How are you?

Haley Radke: I'm doing well. Thank you so much for coming back on and now we have met in real life.

Lesli Johnson: I know. So that was fun.

Haley Radke: That was a lot of fun. That was, it was so fun to give you a hug and see your face in person.

Lesli Johnson: Yep. At the CUB Conference, Concerned United Birth Parents, it was nice to see some people that I had only known, up until then, online.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So many connections with online friends in real life is so fun.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Well, I asked you back to talk about something I probably say every episode and sometimes people are like, I don't even know what you're talking about. That terminology is unfamiliar. And it is "coming out of the fog".

And I was wondering, can you help define that for us and just talk a little bit about what that means to you?

Lesli Johnson: Sure. I'd be happy to. So the term coming out of the fog has become really popular in the adoption community. And I guess my definition, I think it's that acknowledgement and you know, for the first time really acknowledging and facing the reality of what happened.

So for the adoptee and the first parent, birth parent, really facing the grief and loss of the separation. Again, there's no linear timeframe when it happens. Maybe for some people it never happens, but it's been my experience both personally and professionally that when it happens, things really start to shift.

And again, if we're thinking about facing that and trying to integrate the grief and the loss, we're kind of looking at even the stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Again, no linear way of processing, but that the adoptee is admitting, wow, adoption really does have an impact on my life.

First Parent has this acknowledgement of, wow, placing a child really did have, does have an impact on my life.

Adoptees, I think we see this on some of the forums and on some of the social media groups, adoptees and adoptive parents too who get really angry at some of the adoptees who are expressing grief and loss. And you know, the like adoptees and adoptive parents that are angry at adoptees who are coming out of the fog. And you get that pushback of, oh, you know, but I had great parents and, you know.

It's not, I was adopted and I had great parents. It's. It's not an either or, it's a both/ and. There's still the grief and loss.

Haley Radke: So what are some of the ways you have seen people experience this and you said, you know, there's stages of grief and you know, there's all these different things. It's not linear. Can you explain maybe what that could feel like for someone to go through that process and maybe what would start them even thinking about it?

Lesli Johnson: An adoptee, an adult adoptee going to search, you know, beginning their search and recognizing and realizing that their birth certificate is a fake. You know, it's the second birth certificate that was given to them that has their adoptive parents' names on it. And coming out of the fog a little bit further, they aren't allowed to access their original birth document. That can be a moment where an adoptee realizes wow. You know, this might be, this is gonna be difficult or, I have a lot of anger about this.

For first parents, I've heard from people in my practice that I've worked with that when they, when their child is about, you know, 12 or 13 or 14 in their teen years that they're coming out of the fog, looks like grief their child isn't a baby anymore. And that solidifies they're not going to parent that child.

I think another example related to feelings that an adoptee might have who's coming out of the fog is maybe when they actually meet their biological parents. They meet their first mother and realize she wasn't the poor girl with tattered clothes, that perhaps was the narrative shared by the adoptive parents. Or she wasn't X, Y or Z, the narrative shared by the adoptive parents.

I think part of when I came out of the fog personally was when I realized I have, I had, and I have no idea where I was for the first three and a half months of my life. Because the story that I was told was that I, my mother thought my adoptive parents thought that I was with my biological mother. And then when I met my biological mother, she let me know that she had relinquished me at birth.

So that was kind of startling to me because it was also around the time when some really close friends of mine had a little baby, and I was like, oh my gosh. Watching, so watching her from birth to three and a half months and kind of, was just very kind of jarring for me.

Haley Radke: And I think for me it was a longer process. Some of it was after my birth mother rejected me a little bit, and then when I first met my biological dad and his wife and my siblings, and seeing the losses there. Connections with them.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And then really when I got pregnant, my first son, like that was like, that's it. Now I really know.

Lesli Johnson: Right. And I think so many people, so many adoptees share that when they have children of their own, when they have biological children of their own, that reality of, whoa. You know, just, whoa. Not only seeing someone that maybe looks like them, but just the experience of I was this infant once and how did this happen?

Haley Radke: Exactly. I remember having that thought, you know? Yeah. When he was first born, like, how could anyone give away a baby? And that was the thought I had in my head, but, I mean, I understand all the circumstances and all of those things. It's just one of those triggers right now.

So we've talked a little bit about the adoptees and first parents. Now, what about adoptive parents? Would they experience ever being out of the fog?

Lesli Johnson: I haven't read a lot of this particular part, piece of the community, you know, adoptive parents coming outta the fog. But I would say absolutely. So I think that would look like when adoptive parents realize that adopting a child isn't the same as having a biological child. It's a way to, one way to form a family, but it's not the same. Or when their beliefs shift to recognizing that adopting a child from another country is not saving that child. Or that adopting a transracial child, you hear sometimes parents say, our family's colorblind. Or I think coming outta the fog is acknowledging the responsibility of parenting a child, you know, from another country or another ethnicity. So I think it does apply to adoptive parents too.

Haley Radke: Are there any things that we can do when we're going through this experience? Now I guess what I'm wondering about is I've heard from several people that this coming outta the fog has been excruciatingly painful. It's like a midlife crisis for them, and they feel like their world is upside down. You know, many of the things you were describing with grief. Right? Or experience of deep grief. What are some things that we can do to move through this process so we don't feel like that? Like completely confused.

Lesli Johnson: I mean, I think you hit kind of the nail on the head too is that it is a process. So I think the maybe initial coming outta the fog is, you know, maybe it's an event and then is the person completely out of the fog? I mean, I know you and I have talked and it's like, can we go back in the fog?

Can we know, spend a little more time there because this isn't really fun. But I think it's the same. I think healing and integrating the parts of one story, especially when it's hard and painful requires, you know, a lot of self-compassion, therapy, community. I guess what I've seen on, you know, with your podcast and some of the other online groups that I follow, you know, the sense of community and support. You're not alone.

Oh wow. This happened to me and when I came out of the fog, this happened. This shared collective experience sometimes is really healing and validating. But I think it's also just it's a lot of self-compassion in recognizing this is a process and allowing, yourself to kind of go through the different stages. And I do really think that I liken it to the stages of grief.

Haley Radke: I was wondering about... you, we were joking that sometimes we talk about going back in the fog. I mean, I think just a couple days ago in the Facebook group, we were joking about that again. You and I have talked about this before, like why do some adoptees just never come out of the fog?

Like, why are they, why are there so many happy adoptees that don't even acknowledge a loss. And I remember you saying there's some things like denial and those types of defense mechanisms.

Lesli Johnson: Coping mechanisms, yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. That can be really, you know, healthy and helpful. Sure. So I don't wanna drag anyone out of the fog, but can you comment on that a little bit about just living in the fog? Like I, I don't want it to be this...

Lesli Johnson: Club that everyone has to join?

Haley Radke: Yes. And, you know, we talk about the online groups and sometimes there's like an us in them and it's like you're an angry adoptee and you're a happy adoptee. And anyway, can you just comment on that a little bit?

Lesli Johnson: And I know what you're referring to too, is that, that, you know, like all I think social media groups let's you know someone feeling like they have to defend their position.

And so if an adopted person was raised in a family where it wasn't okay to talk a about a adoption and it wasn't talked about, they become conditioned to think it's not significant. And if there's nothing that challenges that significance or challenges that belief that this isn't who I am. You know, sometimes you'll hear say, well, adoption doesn't define me. I mean, I used to say that and it, but it does. I mean, it can't really take the adoption out of me.

But I think sometimes if adoptees are raised in environment or just it absolutely is not talked about or even worse, that there's almost a spoken or unspoken threat that, that you know that you're gonna harm your adoptive parents if you talk about it, that it just becomes easier to just to stay kind of in the fog.

And nobody's really saying that the fog is a bad place to be, but I guess I don't, you know, this is my profession and I think the truth is your friend, whatever the truth is, and that's gonna really set you free. So the fog wasn't a great place for me to be in, but I know for my brother, I think he likes the fog.

You know, my adoptive mom loved the fog. She, I think I've joked with you, is that she's the only person who didn't know I was adopted. So her fog was thick.

Haley Radke: When you're, you know, you're describing your brother and your mother like that, and there's just somehow there is this negative connotation to this terminology and I don't know, I wish it didn't have that, because it's such a nice place to be in, but yes I do want to live in the truth and see things clearly for exactly what they are.

Lesli Johnson: Right, right.

Haley Radke: I don't know, do you, I don't know what I'm trying to get at Leslie, but.

Lesli Johnson: Well, and I think some people do want to be the truth and some people don't or choose not to or don't think they can handle it. Don't think that they have the resources or the strength or the fortitude to go there. So that may also keep people from the, kind of exploration of themselves really. That's really what coming out of the fog is. It's not really about, I mean, it is and it isn't, but it's really about exploration of self.

You know, how did this impact me? How does it impact the people around me? But from, you know, it is really, I think it's connecting the dots of our stories.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. And I think maybe this is where this negative connotation comes in. Because for some of us, we say outta the fog means waking up to 'adoption is the worst;, but that's not the case. It's waking up to the whole reality of adoption and that...

Lesli Johnson: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: I had a loss and also I had a good or bad experience with my adoptive parents and my loss doesn't take away, or, you know, from my relationship with them so having the whole picture.

Lesli Johnson: I mean, I think that's absolutely spot on, correct. And you know, what if this, the term was more, you know, not coming out of the fog but coming into the truth, you know? Cause that's kind of what it is, right?

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Lesli Johnson: Taking away the veils and seeing the truth.

Haley Radke: Well, that's pretty good. That's maybe, that's like your book title.

Lesli Johnson: All right I'll, I don't know. I just thought, I guess I just thought of that as I was, I'm just kind of looking at some notes on my desk and there is a, I think that there is kind of a negative kind of connotation of coming out of the fog. Maybe just speaking about the truth and entering the truth could be a different way of looking at it.

And that's really what we're talking about, you know.

Haley Radke: If I am outta the fog and I'm seeing these true things, I'm seeing the full picture for myself and I'm starting to express some of these feelings and thoughts to my loved ones and they're not really understanding it. Are there ways in which I could discuss these things?

For example with my adoptive parents who I would say are probably mostly in the fog. Are there ways I can engage with them and talk to them about this in a really gentle manner? Again, I don't wanna be the one that drags someone outta the fog.

Lesli Johnson: Right. Well, I think that we, I think we've even talked about this in a previous episode is like, how do we talk about this adoption, and especially adoption trauma and separation trauma? How do we talk about our experience integrating that with the people that we love and care about? And often that just feels arduous. Like, ugh, I have to, do I have to do this? Like, but I think there are ways, I mean, and I always reference back to this podcast, I think this podcast is opening so many people's eyes to the experience of adoption. And I don't just mean for the adoptee, I mean for first parents, I mean for adoptive parents, prospective adoptive parents.

So referencing legitimate sources of education and I definitely think this Adoptees On podcast is, and I think some of the social media groups you know, I love to recommend Anne Heffron's book because I just think it it speaks to our experience. And it seems like there has been a shift where people are wanting to hear from the adoptee.

Haley Radke: I guess there comes a point where this becomes so much of my story that it just leaks into every aspect of my life and other relationships.

Lesli Johnson: Right.

Haley Radke: Because adoption comes up all the time.

Lesli Johnson: Yes.

Haley Radke: It just does. I just finished another book. Right at the end, there was this whole thing with adoption. I'm like, are you kidding me?

Lesli Johnson: No, I totally agree. I, so I think also doing our work, doing our own work is an ongoing process. I think it's a lifelong process. So we're out of the fog. We're doing our own work, and it's kind of like when you get a new car and then you see that car everywhere. You know, like you're driving and you see that same car every, everywhere. Are you really seeing that car more or is it just because you're, you just got that car? Do you know what I mean? That's, it might be a really terrible metaphor.

Haley Radke: No you're primed too. Yeah.

Lesli Johnson: Right. What you're saying about the book that you just read, I mean, I just read. I love reading. I mean, I love reading a whole bunch of books, but I, especially like when I'm not reading books for work or books about adoption, I like reading memoirs that chefs have written or cooks like Julia Child or Jacques Pépin.

And I just read this memoir I'm not gonna get his last name but the, he was adopted. And a couple nights ago, watching a movie that wasn't about adoption, but at the very end it turned into, it turned into a movie about adoption. So I get what you're saying and it's like, oh my gosh, it's everywhere.

Haley Radke: Those conversation starters are also everywhere.

Lesli Johnson: Right.

Haley Radke: And of course for me, this podcast and is kind of. Everywhere in my life.

Lesli Johnson: Yes. Course.

Haley Radke: So talking about that, but for my listeners, when you're just having conversations with your friends and family and somebody says something positive about adoption or someone else's adoption experience, do they have an opportunity to bring something up and start a dialogue? Or is it just one more thing that you're like, Ugh, that kind of triggered me. I don't wanna say anything and there's just one more positive thing about adoption I don't wanna hear right now.

Lesli Johnson: Right. I would say it's a case by case, instance by instance, dinner party by dinner party, holiday by holiday scenario. So it that there isn't just a one, one-off answer, but in each instance, is there an opportunity? Do you feel like educating someone ? Or do you intentionally decide you're just not up for it? Sitting at the dinner table and something about adoption comes up.

Maybe you're just, maybe you make that intentional decision, like I'm, I just don't. I'm not engaging in, I don't wanna engage in this right now.

Haley Radke: Or if you're feeling feisty.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Maybe you too.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah. An opportunity to educate. You know?

Haley Radke: So good. So if you could, would you really, Leslie, would you really go back in the fog?

Lesli Johnson: Absolutely not. I really wouldn't. No. No.

Haley Radke: Sometimes I think I would like it for a day, but living in. Really seeing all of the different aspects of what I've experienced and what my birth mother and my dad, and like my adoptive parents have experienced, and generationally what my kids are now going to experience.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And what my biological grandparents have experienced. I couldn't put that away. I wouldn't wanna lose that, and I wanna live in the truth and the light.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah. I agree. I wouldn't, in part, I wouldn't even be, I wouldn't have the privilege of doing the work that I do if I went back into the fog and I just don't think my life experience would feel as kind of rich. So yeah. I'll stay outta the fog.

Haley Radke: Okay. We can be in the Sunshine Buddies.

Lesli Johnson: Right. It's a deal. It's a deal.

Haley Radke: Even though as we're recording this, you are living in sunshine and I am living in the snow, so.

Lesli Johnson: I know. I'm sorry, I wish I could send a little your way. It is pretty sunny here.

Haley Radke: I would take it. Well, thank you so much for this great conversation and .

Lesli Johnson: Thank you for the work that you're doing and I mean, I speak for myself, but I also speak for our community.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I appreciate that. Where can we connect with you online?

Lesli Johnson: You can connect with me. My website is www.yourmindfulbrain.com. Twitter at Leslie a Johnson, l e a s l i a Johnson and Instagram, your mindful brain.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you, Leslie. Thank you.

This show is brought to you by my Patreon partners. Patreon is a site that allows creators like me to raise monthly support to help me keep producing this podcast for you. As a special thank you for a monthly pledge, I have a secret Facebook group that is for adoptees only, where we support each other through search and reunion issues, and we get really real about things we are struggling with, like coming under the fog.

Come and join us. Adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. I have a special message from a fellow adoptee to share with you.

(Recorded voice of Mary Jane Huang) Hi haley. My name is Mary Jane Huang and I am a Taiwanese adoptee from Taipei Taiwan. I'm also a social worker and a board certified music therapist. I love your podcast. So many of the stories your guests share and their experiences deeply resonate with me, and I especially love your healing through the Expressive Art series.

I find healing through music and writing, and I recently had my first book published a memoir called Beyond Two Worlds, a Taiwanese American Adoptee's memoir and Search for Identity. So I was raised to believe I was one race, but after finding my adoption papers, which my adoptive parents hid, I learned that the story my parents told me was not true, and I had a completely different heritage.

So this of course set me off on a journey to find answers, and I eventually reunited with my birth family in taipei in 2012. I also think that underlying this story is a common theme that many adoptees share, and that is of loss. You can purchase the book amazon.com, Barnes and Noble online, as well as indiebound.org, and at my website Beyond Two Worlds. That's T w o worlds.com. Thank you so much for letting me share this with your listeners. I look forward to listening to more of your wonderful podcasts.

(Haley Radke Speaking) Thanks, Mary Jane. If you are an adoptee and would like to tell us about your book or blog or whatever you're working on, head over to adopteeson.com/connect and click on the microphone. I love to hear your voices.

Today would you tell one person about the show? It's literally by word of mouth that podcasts are able to grow their audience if you are able to do that for me, it's just such a huge help to raise up adoptee voices worldwide. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you for listening.

Let's talk again next Friday.

46 Kristen - Acting Adopted

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/46

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 7, Kristen. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, I welcome Kristen Garaffo to share her story. Kristen discovered adoption had a deeper impact on her life than she originally realized.

She shares some incredible moments of clarity she's had along the way, and about the impact acting, singing and yoga have had on her healing journey. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and, as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.com Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Kristen Garaffo. Welcome!

Kristen Garaffo: Hey. I'm so excited.

Haley Radke: Did I get [00:01:00] it? Did I get it right?

Kristen Garaffo: You did. You totally got it right.

Haley Radke: Oh, Kristen, I'm so happy to have you here. We actually met at the Indiana Adoptee Network conference in person. And we were in a little support group together where I said some very inappropriate things to an adoptive parent. I'll never forget that. I'm not going to share that here, but that is my shame I have carried for a while.

Anyway, that's an aside, but I am glad I got to meet you in person. So that was really fun. And I'd love it if you would just start off by sharing your story with us.

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. So I am an international adoptee. I was born in Asunción, Paraguay. I was adopted when I was six months old. Growing up, I never really thought [00:02:00] a ton about my adoption.

It's something that I've always known. There was never a time I didn't know. And I was busy as a kid. I did theater. I sang in choir and I was really into it. Really into it. I went to college, I have a musical theater degree. And that had been my focus. That has been my focus, I would say for a majority of my life. Honestly, like I had blinders on, I wanted to be on Broadway.

And I had a ton of support doing all of those things. And it wasn't until I was in college I was not getting cast in the shows at school. And I had a professor who told me that I could write my own stuff. If I was unhappy not performing, I should just create my own performance [00:03:00] opportunities.

And she said, It needs to be something that is uniquely you, like what makes you uniquely you? And at the time I was like, Well, I'm adopted. I guess I could write about that. And that opened a whole world of stuff, a world of things. And I was really into writing a piece that I didn't even really know what it was at the time.

And I ended up getting busy with school so it fell to the back burner. And this piece has continued to flow in and out of my life every year since. Since 2008 was when I had this idea and when I really became aware of all of my just adoption stuff. And then here I am.

Haley Radke: What do you mean by all your adoption stuff?

Kristen Garaffo: So growing up not thinking about adoption at all. Not really. It was just something that wasn't on my mind. I would say [00:04:00] that my stuff is just thinking about it and spending time with this part of my life and just like thoughts of my birth mother, thoughts of Paraguay, thoughts of what would life have been like, all of those things.

Yeah, and also just learning in college, learning about different adoption communities and that they were even a thing because I grew up not knowing that there are adoption support groups and communities of people. Yeah, so it was like a whole world opened up to me

Haley Radke: So have you ever gone back to Paraguay?

Kristen Garaffo: I have not. No. I have not.

Haley Radke: And what about the culture and those kind of things? Were you exposed to that by your adoptive parents?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, a little bit. So I remember in my room growing up, I had some art on the wall that was from Paraguay and I had certain, [00:05:00] I don't even know what you call them, like they were all art things.

I think my parents went to a market when they were there and they just bought little souvenir-type things. And that kind of went with what I've always known, there were things on the wall there. I was surrounded by these things. Honestly, I don't really know a ton about the culture and the country.

And that has been sad for me. Paraguay is a pretty small country in the middle of South America. It's landlocked. When I've looked up information about it it's limited. And that is something that I want to learn more about. Definitely, just like the culture in the country, and I do want to go back one day very soon.

Haley Radke: What did realizing there was some “adoption stuff” mean to you for next steps? Like you talked about you wrote this thing, but you put it to the side.

Kristen Garaffo: The play that [00:06:00] I was writing for the first couple of years, really I didn't know what it was, I just knew that there would be little instances that happened every once in a while that would make me feel very specific things like hurt or sadness or just like numb feelings.

And when those experiences would happen, I would write about them and they would happen maybe once or twice a year. And I ended up having a bunch of really random scenes that didn't necessarily go together, but I knew I had something and I really think I came face to face with the hurt and trauma and my shadow in a yoga class.

Actually, I [00:07:00] was in a yoga class, really one of my first ever yoga classes that I ever took. And we went into a pose called half pigeon pose, which is a deep hip opener. And I ended up crying a lot in the middle of this yoga class on my mat.

And at the time I had recently graduated from college. I was so stressed out. I was exhausted. College was really crazy for me. And it was like all of this emotion came out of me and looking back at that moment, I think it went beyond just the exhaustion and the stress of being a college graduate. I really think I tapped into something deeper, which I believe is my primal wound.

Haley Radke: You said the hurt and trauma and shadow. Can you talk about that?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. Shadow. So I'm a yoga teacher and a life [00:08:00] coach, and I think a lot about light and shadow within ourselves. I think that I am a pretty up person, like my essence is joy. And I feel confident saying that. I think maybe at one point I would be not owning that part of myself, but I do think that my natural energy is light and buoyant and joyful.

And at the same time, there is this deep shadow I call a shadow. Which is the hurt and the pain of my adoption. And it is really scary to go to those places. And at the same time, it's a part of who I am, and I think about valuing the light and the dark within myself and within all of us.

Like I value that shadow even though it's hard and scary and I [00:09:00] feel so many complex things about being adopted and what that means to be adopted and I'm still navigating all of my feelings.

Haley Radke: So have you looked into why you were available for adoption?

Kristen Garaffo: The story that I've been told is that my birth mother was 19. She already had a little girl, so I have a birth sister who's three years older than I was. And the story was just that she couldn't take care of me. And that it was, you know, her life. I think she was cleaning houses. Already having a three year old, having another one would just be too much.

Haley Radke: So when you know that, what are you believing about yourself?

Kristen Garaffo: An initial thought is like, Why? And also at the same time, like I get it. I get it, like two kids is [00:10:00] more than one. I don't even really know if I've taken the time to sit with that. What does that actually feel like?

Haley Radke: Feelings are so fun, aren't they? You had this moment on the yoga mat of feelings and we're opened up to thinking about maybe there's more to this adoption thing. You've all these scenes written, but they're disjointed. Let's go back to that.

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah. Yeah. And I would love to talk about an experience that I had that made me take my place seriously. I think before it was just a thing that I was doing that was maybe going to be something but I didn't really know. And it wasn't until I took a trip to Costa Rica. I traveled to Costa Rica for a yoga leadership retreat and it was the prerequisite to my life coach [00:11:00] certification and I was going to do yoga and to go.

It wasn't really a retreat 'cause we were doing really deep soul work and we were there for two weeks. And what I was not expecting was be being in Central America, even though it wasn't South America, had a huge impact on me. And my cells. When I try to explain what it was like, I can explain it as feelings in my body from immediately getting off of the plane and feeling the hot air and seeing the palm trees and just being in a place that is closer to the equator.

I started getting teary eyed. My heart started pounding and I felt like I [00:12:00] was vibrating and I was like, What is happening? This is crazy. And not thinking about adoption at all. And I just felt, I felt feelings. I felt feelings and I didn't know where they were coming from.

And I had another moment. I think it was the second day that I was there at the retreat center. So our morning practice was silent. So we had silent breakfast and we could journal, we could meditate, we could do whatever we wanted to do before breakfast and before the first session of the day at this leadership retreat.

And I woke up and went into the kitchen and at this retreat center everything was open so we could see the jungle and there were monkeys and there were lots and lots of sounds even though we were being silent. And there were two women who worked at the retreat center [00:13:00] who were making us breakfast and the silent breakfast didn't apply to them.

So they were speaking Spanish to one another as they were cutting up fruit. They were cutting up fruit. And I remember sitting and looking out into the jungle and hearing all of these monkeys and nature sounds and hearing these two women speaking Spanish to one another chopping fruit and hearing the knife on the table and just kitchen sounds. And I started weeping and it was another moment of sensory overload and, again, I didn't know why I was feeling all of this.

And I was just sitting at this kitchen table crying. And it wasn't until I talked to my teacher and I was [00:14:00] like, I don't know why I'm feeling so emotional for no reason. And she said, Well, you don't know yet. And when I actually figured out why I was feeling all of this stuff is we ended up doing a meditation on being in the womb.

And I had never thought about that. I had never thought about my time in the womb. And I was like, Oh. Oh, okay. It's this. This is it. And coming back to the play, like why, and also just like life, all of it came together and I realized that my story and this part of my life is so important and is part of who I am.

And also, I think of myself as a storyteller and as an actor, that's also a part of who I am. And how I started on my own healing journey with my adoption was, actually, like the end of that retreat. I was like, I am writing this play. I'm writing it. I am getting resources to help me write this play [00:15:00] and I am doing it.

And I did.

Haley Radke: You're telling that story about the women cutting fruit and I have goosebumps. Like something about it was familiar to you.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes, and I know that now. At the time I didn't understand, but now I can look back at it and, yeah, it's like an unconscious memory. It's like a knowing without knowing but knowing. It's so confusing, but I know you know what I mean.

Haley Radke: Preverbal memories.

Kristen Garaffo: Exactly. Yeah, so after my Costa Rica trip, I decided to really buckle down and write this piece. So I ended up falling down a Google rabbit hole, just like googling one-woman shows. And I ended up finding a woman named Tanya Taylor Rubinstein. And Tanya Taylor Rubinstein is in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

And she [00:16:00] is a coach. She's a healer. She helps people write and tell their stories. And she had a solo show bootcamp. And I found this. Again, I didn't know this was a thing, but I was like, Holy moly, I have to hire this woman. So I ended up calling her and I flew to Santa Fe, New Mexico. I spent a couple of days with Tanya and that was the first time where I was able to take all of these scenes that I had written and I actually tossed them out the window, since I had been in Santa Fe and we started over, and it was really amazing because we didn't even write. I don't remember, I think it was four days, it was three or four days that I was there, and I didn't write at all, I was on my feet and storytelling the whole time.

Tanya would ask questions and she would guide me through and [00:17:00] I just started telling stories about my life. And we recorded everything so I ended up going home with hours of content of me just sharing stories. And once I got home, I was able to transcribe some of those stories and put them together with a beginning, a middle and an end. And ultimately what the play has turned into.

It's called Hi, My Name is Kristen. And it is my story from birth to my early twenties, like right after college. And it is my life as a series of auditions. And, yeah, it explores my life as a performer who is also adopted. It explores my feelings with rejection, with acceptance, with my strong desire to [00:18:00] please as a performer. And also as an adoptee, and all of those things are heightened because of my adoption. And that's the piece.

Haley Radke: That's amazing. And I'm just thinking about adoptees as performers, can you talk a little bit more about that?

Kristen Garaffo: I was actually inspired. What brought the play together for me was reading The Primal Wound for the first time.

And honestly, as I was reading it, we all know that's a pretty tough read. It's a pretty tough read. And as I was reading it, I was like, I don't really know if this applies to me. Like I don't know, but I kept reading and until I got to a point and it was a small little paragraph and it said something like, if your child isn't showing, [00:19:00] anger, loneliness, or I'm not sure exactly what it said, but it's the opposite, like if your kid is perfect and follows the rules and in general seems very happy and eager to please, the wound is still there. It's just showing up in a different way. And it's an unconscious fear of being rejected.

And I read that and my heart stopped and I was like, I get it. I was like, that's me. That's me. And just thinking about adoptees as performers, it's wanting to please, it's wanting to be perfect. It's wanting to not upset. It's wanting to not offend because we don't want to be rejected again.

Haley Radke: It was an interesting career path that you chose. Always having to audition. I know you've shifted [00:20:00]

Kristen Garaffo: I didn't pick it. I remember, especially growing up, I love to sing. I love to sing and the first musical that I was ever in was Snow White and the Seven Dwarves in fourth grade. And that was it. I did it and I was like, Done, I'm doing this forever. I loved it so much.

And as I got older, and this is what happens in the play, it gets more serious and I put so much pressure on myself to do well and to succeed. And I think it was not only me but hearing adults say, You're so talented. You're so great. We love you and all of that, and hearing that and being like, Yes, I need that. I need that to be worthy.

This is totally random, but I played Annie [00:21:00] in eighth grade. I totally didn't put the two and two together until I was writing my piece, until I was writing Hi, My Name is Kristen. I played Annie in eighth grade, and I don't know, it's so silly.

Haley Radke: I don't know. I said what a career you chose, or whatever, you just loved it. That's who you are and you want to sing and perform. And so what has that led you to? Tell me more about that.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes. I live outside of Washington D.C. And I've been a professional actor here in D.C. since 2010-ish. And it's interesting because living the actor lifestyle is hard. It's hard because you have to audition all of the time. There is no real job security. It's going from show to show. And honestly as I have lived that life, but also at the same time I was teaching yoga, I got my life coach certification and the [00:22:00] more that I leaned into that world and taking care of my body, taking care of my heart, I realized that the actor lifestyle is hard and maybe not for me, at least at this point in my life.

And at the same time, that doesn't take away my love of performing, my love of storytelling, my love of singing and music. And what it means to me now is I am still performing, I'm still creating music, just on my own terms. I don't think I ever want to audition again. I just want to be empowered to create my own stuff.

Haley Radke: Yes. I had written down when you very first said that one of your teachers said, Create your own opportunities. And so you've written your one-woman show for you. For you to [00:23:00] perform. Can we talk a little bit about plays, theater and what it's like for an audience member to experience these things?

So when I was in Indiana with you, Brian Stanton performed Blank and I basically was dead because it was so amazing. I went to the C.U.B. retreat, the Concerned United Birthparents Retreat. And they had a performance, it was a reading of Lord of the Underworld's Home for Unwed Mothers by Louisa Hill.

I sat through both of those performances and I was riveted and I cried and I felt all of the empathy for the characters and experienced this crazy ride of emotions, the sadness and anger, and I [00:24:00] shared with a couple of my friends who missed out. They didn't come to the play.

They were doing something else. And I was like, it was so powerful. I can't believe you missed it. And they didn't get why it was so important, and I don't know how to put that into words. What it's like to experience that with a room full of other audience members who are going on the same ride as you, and do you have words for that?

What does that mean for you?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah and before I jump in, I also want to share with you that I went to the conference in Indiana to see Brian's play. I had just met Ridghaus, who I know you've talked to. Like two weeks before that conference at another conference, he was like, You should come see this show.

Because he knew I had written a play. And I was like, Okay. I booked a ticket and it was so [00:25:00] incredible. It was so huge for me because my play has been just in my brain for a really long time. And to actually see Brian perform his piece was validation for me that it's possible and seeing it was so powerful because his piece was so powerful and it empowered me to keep going with my play.

I think that storytelling is magic. I think stories touch us in a way that is different than hearing a talk. I'm touching my heart right now. I think stories touch us in a way that's different. And I think specifically with theater and being in a room with other people and having other real life human beings in front of you telling a story that [00:26:00] that kind of intimacy is rare.

I think now with technology and with other mediums, like film and TV, and not that there's anything wrong with film or TV, I love film and TV, but I think that theater in particular is its own art form and is beautiful and intimate. And I also know as a performer that, again, it's magic, and I cry.

The last show that I was in was three years ago. And it's a part of me being able to tell my story in my way. My way as an actor, as a musician, as a singer. Saying my own words, telling my own [00:27:00] story in front of a group of people in the present moment is so amazing. It's so amazing. And I'm just so honored and excited to share my piece.

And I believe it's an honor to be in a space with other human beings in real time and hearing a story, and being able to sit and watch. And I also think that because I've been performing for so long, I know what it takes to put on a play or a musical, and it takes a village. It takes a village.

There's a whole team of people who are working to make it happen. And I think that's pretty special.

Haley Radke: Have you seen the one I mentioned? Lord of the Underworld's Home for Unwed Mothers.

Kristen Garaffo: Oh, I've never seen that one.

Haley Radke: Okay, so it's actually not written by an adoptee or a birth mother. It's written by the playwright Louisa Hill. And I actually was messaging with her because I was telling her how incredible I [00:28:00] thought it was. And I was like, Are you an adoptee? And she said, No, but I have a few friends who are adopted and I read the Primal Wound and some other books about adoption. Because she nails it. It's incredible. The first act is all from the birth mother's perspective.

And it's the Baby Scoop Era, where they sent the mothers away to a home and they had no choice. They had to give their babies away and when they hesitate and they want to keep the baby they're like, Okay, here's your bill. So their hands are tied basically. And then the second half is the adoptee perspective.

So during the first act, there were two older ladies sitting next to me and they were birth mothers and the one would nudge the other one: That's what they said to me! And they, when they're experiencing the unwed mother's home, they were just so moved. And I [00:29:00] was too, right?

There is something magic, as you say, about being in person and experiencing it together. What other words can you say about that?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, and you can see and hear your story and someone else's story. And I think that is also magic. Because that means you were not alone. We're not alone. And who doesn't need that reminder?

Haley Radke: Yeah. That's a big part of why I created the podcast, this platform for people to share their stories. Exactly, so that people can listen and think, Oh my goodness, I'm not the only one who has weird and crazy thoughts that I've never said out loud before.

Kristen Garaffo: Yes. Yes. Totally. I think writing my play has been immensely healing. Telling my story has been [00:30:00] really healing, because I think, like what you just said, it's like having these thoughts that we've never really said out loud. I think there is power in owning our stories.

There is power in being able to speak these things out loud. And, my time with Tanya in Santa Fe was hugely healing. And it was the first time. We did some crazy stuff. Talking about the primal wound, I turned the wound into a character. And it was like, what does the wound sound like? What does the wound say? How does the wound move? What does it look like? And being able to embody that was crazy and amazing and scary and all of these things.

Using your body and using your voice and telling your story is healing is super healing. My healing continues as I share this piece with more [00:31:00] and more people, which is happening. And, you know, my piece has taken its time to be birthed out into the world and I think there was a time where I thought that it was happening too slowly, but now I understand why it's taken this long, because I think if I had performed it when I had finished writing it, that I just wouldn't have been ready emotionally to share and to speak my story.

So I've taken my time, and other things that I have done there is an adult adoptee support group that I go to. I should say once a month, I don't go once a month though. But knowing that it's there, and going to support group therapy is good. Also, I have a life coach.

I would consider my yoga practice as part of my healing. I am also a CrossFit athlete. Really moving my body, I think, [00:32:00] is part of it. Because our emotions and our thoughts can get stuck in our bodies, I believe, and I think that our trauma lives in our muscles, it lives in our bones, and we can only talk so much about it and stay in our brains.

Moving and being in our bodies touches on our wounds in a different way than just talking about it. Not to say that talking about it isn't helpful as well because, holy moly, that's super valuable to be able to voice these thoughts that we may be afraid to say out loud, but then adding a movement practice into it, at least in my own experience, it's been huge for me.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. We have been talking about how creativity and different forms in visual arts and music and in all of these different pieces helps us to express the nonverbal, right? And so movement is just another layer of that.

Kristen Garaffo: Totally.

Haley Radke: So well [00:33:00] said. Thank you. Okay. So for recommended resources, as you said, you are a musician as well, so you have a couple of songs up on, I found them on YouTube, on Spotify, and where else can we find them?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, I think they're YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, as well. I have one song out called “I Am” and it was written for meditation and it's positive affirmations and you can stream that on Spotify and iTunes. And then I have a forgiveness meditation called “Ho'oponopono.” It is a Hawaiian forgiveness practice and that is on YouTube.

There's more music to come. So songwriting is new for me and I am excited to just dig more into that. And there's also original music in my play Hi, My Name is Kristen. So I have my [00:34:00] ukulele, the ukulele makes an entrance in the show. Singing is, music is in my heart.

Haley Radke: It's so beautiful and I keep saying this word, but it's so moving as well. And your one-woman show. So tell us, are we able to see this, like what's happening?

Kristen Garaffo: Yes, there's a reading of Hi, My Name is Kristen happening on November 5th at 5:30 at a place called Rhizome DC.

It's a community art space in the Takoma neighborhood of Washington D.C. and tickets are free. So that reading is happening very soon and I want to take this show where it’s needed. I have a goal to perform this piece all over the country, where it's needed. So I'm taking this show on the road. And if you're interested, holler at me.

Haley Radke: It would be a great addition to another Adoptee conference, right? Target market. [00:35:00] So good. Thank you. Okay. And now what did you want to recommend to us?

Kristen Garaffo: Yeah, Tanya Taylor Rubenstein. If you are interested in telling your story, whether it's a memoir or if you want to create a talk, like a TED Talk, or a one-woman or a one-man show, Tanya will help you out.

She'll help you get your story out into the world. She helped me out and I am so grateful for her. And also, if you have never taken a yoga class or a meditation class, I recommend it. I recommend it. It makes you feel good.

Haley Radke: Wonderful, I will put links to all of those things, to your show and to your recommendation in the show notes so people can find those. And where can we connect with you online, Kristen?

Kristen Garaffo: So I am on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. You can just look up Kristen Garaffo. That's my Instagram handle and on Facebook [00:36:00] as well. And my website, KristenGaraffo.com.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for chatting with me and sharing your story.

Kristen Garaffo: You're so welcome. I'm so happy and grateful to be here. Thank you.

Haley Radke: It's November and that means it's National Adoption Awareness Month. Did you know that this month was supposed to highlight the need for homes for older children in foster care? But instead, in these past few years, it has turned into this heavy month of promoting and celebrating adoption in every form.

So if you're feeling feisty and would like to have some say in the conversation, head over to any social media outlet and share what adoption has meant to you and tell some adoptee truth, because believe me, there is not enough out [00:37:00] there. And there's a ton of hashtags out there. Flip The Script is one great one to follow and join in on.

Alternately, if you are feeling sensitive and like you don't have it in you to read post after post about how amazing adoption is, November is the perfect month for a social media break and some self care, which I am more in that camp for today.

Anyway, this show is brought to you by my incredibly generous Patreon supporters of which there are now, listen to this you guys, 36! Thank you so very much. When I get to 50 supporters, I will be able to hire an editor to help with my workload and my dear husband and my tiny kids will be delighted to have some time back with me again.

So, if you would like to stand with me and these amazing 36 partners that I have, Patreon [00:38:00] is this crowdfunding website that takes monthly pledges and it helps me sustain the podcast. All the details and how to sign up are on adopteeson.com/partner.

Last thing, I always ask you to share the show. My husband just got us a Google home speaker. And did you know, if you say, Google play the podcast Adoptees On, it will. Isn't that cool? Try it out! And if you're at a friend's house and they have a smart speaker, maybe you can show them how it works to play a podcast.

Thanks for listening, friends, and take good care, especially this month. And let me know if you go check out Kristen's one-woman show. I would love to hear how it is. I wish I could go.

Let's talk again next Friday.

45 Gareth - The Magical Realism of Being Adopted

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/45

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 6, Gareth. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today I introduce you to Gareth Price, a magical realism artist from New Zealand. We talk a lot about what being an adoptee feels like and the accompanying anger that Gareth tells me he's dealt with all his life.

Gareth and I chat about his art, his twin sister and his reunion with his birth mother. We wrap up with some recommended resources and, as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to the podcast, Gareth Price. Welcome Gareth.

Gareth Price: Hello, [00:01:00] Hayley. How's it going?

Haley Radke: It's good. I would love for you to share your story with us.

Gareth Price: I was born in Auckland in December 1971. I'm a twin. I have a twin sister, Glenda. And we were both adopted out immediately after birth.

We were adopted out to my parents, Rose and Craig Price, and we lived in Green Lane which is beside One Tree Hill, which was featured on the Joshua Tree album. There was a song, “One Tree Hill”, that U2 did, and if anybody's familiar with that, that's where I grew up.

I've actually heard this from a few of your podcasters, people don't tend to seem to get that interested in the whole adoption issue until they start approaching maybe 20, maybe? Or maybe early 20s or something? And we were the same. It was actually my sister. Even though we're twins, we're very separate people. I'm quite [00:02:00] a reserved chap, and she was very outward and she left home at 15 and she very much acted out.

She was a very angry person back then. She's quite different now. She's lovely. But, and anyway, she was the one who instigated trying to find our birth mother. And we found her on Anzac Day. Anzac Day is a celebration that we have down here. And I think it was, I can't remember what year, it was when we were about 18 or 19.

And yeah, and so we met her and that was as anybody who's gone through this experience, that was utterly, indescribably wonderful and terrifying. It was just so bizarre. It was the most unbelievable experience. Just her walking up the driveway and you have all these images in your mind of what your birth mother may look like, and then when she comes up, she was a little bit different than I thought and probably a bit shorter maybe and things like that and we [00:03:00] connected very strongly over, it must be said, over alcohol mostly for about the next five or six, seven years, eight years and it was really good and then things started to go another way, shall we say.

And anyway, and about two years after meeting her, she got in contact with our birth father. And we connected with him. And that was really amazing. I'm still in contact with both of them. They don't really contact much with each other.

And our birth mother, she lives just out of central Auckland, just on the waterfront in a suburb called St. Heliers. And the birth father lives just down the country a little bit in a place called Coromandel. And the real kicker for us is the fact that our birth mother is also adopted.

She tried to, I believe, this story is a bit confused for me, I'm not sure, I believe that she tried to find her birth [00:04:00] mother at about 18 as well, but she was unsuccessful because the law was a lot stronger back when she was adopted out with the closed adoptions. She's the end of the line on that side, but on the father's side, we've been extraordinarily lucky. He's got three sisters, so our aunts. It's been a very rich history on that side. Yeah, and all this stuff keeps getting stronger and stronger the older I get. I'm 45 now.

It's unusual because you think that finding your roots fixes everything. And it does change some things, but other things change, but they don't really get fixed as such. Like we've got all these wonderful family connections and things, and that's great, but I still don't go along to family gatherings that much because there's always that intense sadness and anger there and stuff [00:05:00]. Even if it's a really good connection, there's still the feeling that this is what we could have had from day one. And it's tremendously…like the relationship is very good, but it's still very hard, and I don't know if that ever really gets fixed, it just gets, maybe, I don't know, maybe I can just start to think about it differently.

I'm really quite philosophical about all this stuff. My sister is a little bit more forthright about it. And the relationship with the birth mother has been slowly deteriorating for about the last maybe 7 or 8 years to the point where, last year she went to Hawaii during the week of her birthday.

And then this year, I believe tomorrow actually, she's actually off to Hawaii again. And I emailed her just to say bon voyage, and she emailed back saying, Oh yes, I tried to be away for my birthday again this year, but I couldn't quite do it. I know that there's this tradition of adoptees having real trouble with their birthdays. [00:06:00] I'm certainly one of them.

And the trouble that she has is so intensely deep that she, I haven't even talked to her about this. I haven't had any real in-depth conversations with her for quite a long time because it's just too raw. And the fact that I had to stop drinking over a decade ago. Maybe if I took up drinking again, I'd be able to talk to her about it. But it's just it just becomes so intense so quickly. There's massive issues there and so much unsaid stuff with her.

And I've been reading on the amazing private Facebook page that you set up, the other people's similar experiences with mostly their own birth mothers, some birth fathers, but how the relationships deteriorate. And because she's got all the guilt and shame and stuff of giving us up. But she's also got the intense anger that comes from being adopted herself. So she's just a [00:07:00] minefield. And it's really heartbreaking because she's such a beautiful person.

She's really wonderful, but if I didn't text her, I would never hear from her. And that's just heartbreaking, because we had such a good relationship for about the first, sorry, admittedly drunkenly but it was good. They were some of the best times of my life, if I was to be really honest.

It was just going over to her house and sometimes with my twin sister and just getting really wasted and just connecting. But we just don't do that anymore. We haven't done it for a very long time, maybe over a decade. And it's sad, you know.

Haley Radke: Do you think she's coming out of the fog and then realizing it's like a whole other level. Birth mothers already, they have what you said, they have the shame and the regret maybe of relinquishing, but then to realize, Oh, I have all of these other adoptee issues on top of that, and then I gave them to you guys.

Gareth Price: Yeah.

Haley Radke: My gosh. [00:08:00] Oh, I feel so much for her right now.

Gareth Price: Yeah, it is. It is very much like that, and I've been in and out of therapy. And every so often I'll try and contact her and I only ever text her mostly, text and email, and I'll gingerly say maybe we should meet up and stuff and a lot of the time she fobs me off and just says, Oh I can't this weekend, blah, blah, blah.

But I can't help but think if she did start to do any of that sort of therapeutic type work, it would just be so incredibly intense for her. It's a mixture between I really feel for her, but I'm really massively upset at her as well. It's two sides of the same thing, and they're both pretty much as intense as each other. It's really hard.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I'm sure there's this part when you're in reunion, you want to be the [00:09:00] child and they should have the parent role, but if she can't get to that place of the parent role, engaging you in conversation and connecting with you in giving something. Like if you're always the one reaching out and doing the giving. And when i'm saying parent role, I don't mean, Oh they need to step up, that's not what I mean. I don't know how else to say that but

Gareth Price: I know what you mean. And we've never had that kind of relationship. It always had some depth to it earlier on, but then it just became more and more surface, and it feels like it desperately needs to be a surface relationship because if anything else starts to happen, it’s like she starts to pull away and for her to pull away in what's already an incredibly fractured relationship is just, well, I hardly ever see her as it is. But I just know that there is going to come that point, probably quite soon because everybody's getting on, people don't [00:10:00] get any younger, etc. And I hope it doesn't happen. I hope I don't explode or something, but I, it's what I really feel like doing. It's horrible. It's nuts.

Haley Radke: What's your sister's relationship like with her? Are they still in touch?

Gareth Price: I think she sees her probably less than I do.

When my sister got married, it might have been about maybe five or so years after we found our birth mother, she didn't even come to the wedding because, I'm assuming, I never talked to her about it, but I'm assuming because she didn't want to see all the the birth father's side that was going to be there and she couldn't face them.

She's just a survivor, she just does what she can to survive. And I certainly relate to that. I'm very much like that myself. I feel like I'm not living a lot of the time as much as I'm surviving, which I think that's the [00:11:00] mentality that I've always had.

And I think from judging by the books that I've read, like the Nancy Verrier books, The Primal Wound and the Coming Home to Self books and various other books, that is the sense that I get that for a lot of adoptees life does tend to be just below the surface. It's all about survival, and swallowing a lot of things.

And putting up with a lot of things that a lot of other people wouldn't put up with just because it's what you know and because you're desperate not to be rejected again and all this kind of stuff, and it's so true. Every day is like that for me. And that's why the art, I'm getting onto the art now, but that's why the art that I do and the music that I've done, not so much these days, but the art is so very important.

Even though it's not directly about adoption, everything is influenced by it and it's [00:12:00] an expressive outlet and it's pretty much the one thing that I feel in my life that's exclusively me and that I can really say, put out how I feel or how I think about whatever. It’s how I make sense of things.

And if anybody goes to the website, the art on it is reasonably surreal and things, but it's mostly symbolism. And if I was to explain the work to you, it's actually a lot of it's quite straightforward.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so why don't you talk a little bit about that? So you are an artist.

Gareth Price: Yes. Yeah. I'm self-taught. I had a great art teacher at my high school. That was really great. He was wonderful. And then I half-heartedly applied to art school after high school, but I didn't get in. I didn't even get an interview.

And then for most of my twenties, I did music. I played some pop music and rock music and things. And I didn't really come back to the visual arts until my early thirties. Primarily because the woman that I was [00:13:00] seeing at the time, she was just finishing up, she was a bit younger than me and she was finishing up at art school.

And so just by being around her doing art all the time, I just felt drawn back into it. And so after work and weekends and whatever, I just got obsessed with painting. And I painted for about three years. And I painted for about three years and then I got up enough work that I thought I could show a gallery and I got into a gallery and the work started selling and I couldn't believe it.

It was just amazing. And that continued for a few years up until about 2012. And that was the highlight of my achievement. There's a work on the website. It's like a big red volcano. It was actually based on the Chilean volcano that erupted in 2011. And I did the painting in 2012. And it was all about those prophecies that came around in 2012 being the end of the world and the Mayan calendar and all that sort of thing. But that was the highlight of my painting career. It won [00:14:00] awards and stuff down here and it sold for a really good price.

But then after that I got more confidence. And I tried a few different things, and sometimes those things worked, and sometimes they didn't. And yeah, people would say I still really like your work, but I don't really want that in my house. Because it was, I'm paraphrasing, they didn't actually say, the work was darker. And it was a bit more experimental. And so the stage I'm at now is doing stuff that's maybe slightly more straightforward. But if that makes any sense.

Haley Radke: You said it's surreal and it has a lot of symbolism. Can you describe some, because you do a lot of really interesting work. Can you describe a little bit more about that?

Gareth Price: I still love Salvador Dali. He's the greatest for me. I think the reason he resonates so much with me is because my adoptive mum used to bring home prints from the library and just hang them up in [00:15:00] our house. You could just rent them like books. And she brought home lots of Dali ones. And I think because all his paintings are about this inner world, like this kind of surreal inner world. And it's full of symbolism and things as well. And that's where I live as a person.

That's where I escaped to and in terms of the whole adoptive mindset, I suppose. And we had a very dictatorial, quite abusive father growing up as well. And so my sister acted out and, like I was saying, she left home at 15 and all that sort of stuff.

She was a real tearaway and I was the opposite. I was very much, I still am, the people-pleasing introvert. I live in my own world. That's what's kept me sane, and that's what Salvador Dali does so well, his landscapes and his figures in the landscapes, they feel very still and they're very calm, a lot of them in terms of the atmosphere.

But there's also [00:16:00] an amazing amount of emotion. There's just so much in them and they just really feel like a kind of strangely safe internal world. And that's what I'm trying to recreate. I spend months doing my paintings and I imagine living inside them a little bit, so it's kind of escapism, but I try and make it relatable for other people as well. It's sort of symbolism. Things symbolize different kinds of emotions and experiences and things like that, you know?

Haley Radke: There's this one painting that I couldn't stop looking at on your website.

There is a house on this beautiful street, and there's a tree in front, and then it looks like the lights, there's a whale in the sky, and there's a woman that looks like she's just suspended, in the air or falling.

Gareth Price: The Resurrection of Ophelia. That's right, yeah [00:17:00]. That one is one of, I think, maybe two or three works that have been commissions. That was one of them.

A guy came into the gallery to see his friend's work and he saw a painting of mine. He asked the gallery owner if I did commissions and the gallery owner contacted me and I said, Yep, sure, absolutely, show me the money. And all he wanted was his house in the painting and I pushed him and pushed him, what else do you want in it? And he would never say. He just said, just do whatever you want.

And I had this idea about doing a large whale just floating around through the sky. And so that's how that came about. But it's symbolism again. It's about the sort of immutable forces of nature and just how unstoppable and incredible they are. Some things that you look around at in the natural world, if they [00:18:00] weren't there, they would be hard to imagine, like Aurora Borealis, all that sort of thing.

Haley Radke: We call that the Northern lights. What do you call it?

Gareth Price: We have Aurora Australis down here, but we hardly ever get it. And it's very faint. I've never seen it. I think you can see it. I think you can see it from the bottom of New Zealand at particular times of the year, but quite faintly.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Where I grew up, which is 10 hours north of where I am right now, northern Canada, you could see it all the time, especially in the winter like that. Like that bright. And so I was like, whoa, that's so beautiful. What about this one where there's a woman talking on the phone and there's all of these

Gareth Price: Insects.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Gareth Price: Oh, that one is the only collaborative work that I've ever done. The wife of a friend of mine went through art school and she did a lot of canvases with all [00:19:00] these, she invented her own 60s, 70s inspired wallpaper patterns. And she just did a whole bit, there's a whole bunch of canvases in the back room of their house just sitting there unused and they're really quite beautiful. And a few of them are not finished. And so I just said, can I paint on one? Because I normally do exteriors but I did this one as an interior and the idea is it's very much reflecting me. The woman in the painting is actually the lady who painted the canvas that I painted on top of. And the whole idea is about people getting obsessed with their own work.

In this case she is an entomologist, I don't know where that idea came from, but she's an entomologist and she's just become quite paranoid. And she's trapped in her house and just imagining seeing things outside the window. And she's basically swamped in her work and it's taken over her life in a kind of [00:20:00] what I hope is a beautiful way. And yeah, it's about how people get obsessive about things in their life. Whether it's your work or whether it's one of your hobbies or whatever it is and how it can quite easily take you over sometimes. Which happens with me routinely with painting. That's what painting does to me it quite a lot

Haley Radke: I love hearing more about this and how things just have such depth of meaning to you. Amazing. So interesting. Tell me a little bit more about how you process some of your adoption feelings through your artwork. What comes out in your painting that maybe surprises you or that you're like literally just trying to expel from yourself?

Gareth Price: Even if it's quite a sort of moody painting, I try to keep the stuff [00:21:00] reasonably bright. Like I really like bright colors, but virtually all of them are to do with just how people deal with trauma or how people deal with obstacles in their life, whether it's addictions or whether it's the adoption thing and family issues.

And it's all about directly or indirectly how people deal with that. A lot of my work is about that. And there's a tremendous amount of anger in them. I've always had a real huge problem expressing anger in a healthy way. I just find it really difficult. And so I find doing painting is quite helpful.

So that's why some of them are a bit darker. The overall emotion that I have that comes through in all of them, some of them are about specific things that aren't related to adoption, but because it's the driving [00:22:00] emotion in my life, it's always there. It's this terror that's not too far below the surface. It's just horrible. It's tremendously alienating and really, it can just be so hard to just get through day to day sometimes, just dragging this weight around. But that's why the podcasts that you do and things are very helpful because the connection there is tremendous.

Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit more about what you said was alienating? Is it because people think adoption is like the best thing ever?

Gareth Price: I guess so. Yeah. There's a strange dichotomy, isn't there? Like if you tell people you're adopted these days, they tend to be a little bit more reserved with their judgment about it. Whereas when I was a bit younger, it was nothing. It was not really an issue. But the reality of it is it's so massive. And even these days, like I'm a huge fan of Reddit. I love Reddit, the [00:23:00] website. But I saw this cartoon the other day, and I've seen this in a few things.

It's just where some kid and his father and they were doing something or other. And then the punchline was he told his son, “you're adopted.” Right? And the whole meaning of it was you thought your life was great, but it was a damning thing for the father to say, if you understand.

And I've seen that in quite a few works, sorry, in quite a few cartoons and things of that nature. Where somebody tells somebody else, “You're adopted.” “Oh, I've got some bad news for you.” “What is it? Am I adopted?” “No, you just have cancer” or something, and it's basically portrayed as this really terrible thing.

And yet when you ask people about it, they don't really have the perception. It's quite hard to get across to people. Even other adoptees, too. Even my own twin sister views it [00:24:00] quite differently to me. And that's been probably the hardest of all because her experience is identical, virtually should be identical to mine, but it's not.

And I guess some people don't really have too much of an issue with it, full stop. They, for whatever reason, have managed to live quite okay. And it hasn't seemingly affected them too much or, I don't know, but what do you think?

Haley Radke: I have lots of feelings.

I've asked some of the therapists before that I speak with regularly, why do some adoptees not seem to mind being adopted? I call them happy adoptees, which is great. That's great. I'm so glad that you can have a great life and not be bothered. I'd happily go back in the fog if I could.

And I remember, I think Leslie Johnson was the one that said, some people are just a little more resilient or they have denial as a defense mechanism. And she was very clear, not saying denial in [00:25:00] any negative connotation, just that, these are not her words, I'm going to mine, but if you're blocking out your losses it's easier to just go on and move forward with life.

But if you really pay attention to them, just like you were saying, you don't want to even go to a family reunion because even if you could be happy there, there's still the other half of you who is just, oh my gosh, I missed out on so much. And you feel angry and you feel sad, and I genuinely understand that because that's exactly how I feel every time I'm with my biological family.

Gareth Price: Is that right?

Haley Radke: Oh yeah, I can't get out of it. I'm literally having the best time and it's so great and I feel like included and I feel like this is where I fit and this is my family, and right in the same moment I'm just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I missed out on this for however many years and what would my life look [00:26:00] like if I was with them?

And I wouldn't have been with them. Maybe if I was with my mother…it's just, you can't turn it off.

Gareth Price: Oh God. Ain't that the truth. Yeah. And the other thing that I keep saying to people whenever I talk about this at length, which isn't that much, is the fact that I don't think any of the problems that we have are necessarily unique to us. But I really do strongly believe that certain issues are incredibly heightened because of the experience.

Like I've seen and heard things through Adoptees On that are very relatable to me. And in You Don't Look Adopted, Anne Heffron's book, about how she would say that she really blows things out of proportion massively in her head, if somebody's late, or just all these things. It's just this [00:27:00] hyper-paranoia that it must be me. I must have done something wrong.

Oh God, why is such and such happening? It must have been something to do with me, and just have to be hypervigilant at all times about everything. And it's incredibly draining. It's incredibly draining. But I'm trying not to live like that, but it's very hard.

Haley Radke: I relate to that so much. If someone doesn't text me back, I think, what did I say? I just, right away.

Gareth Price: Yeah, it's the same.

Haley Radke: They couldn't possibly just be charging their phone or something. It's me.

Gareth Price: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, what have I done? I shouldn't have used that particular word in the last text. I must have triggered them and now they hate me or something.

Haley Radke: Oh yeah. Yeah. The hypervigilance. Oh my goodness. I so get that.

Gareth Price: Yeah. Truth be told, that's one of the biggest attractions of the art world for me, the fact that I can work on my own and I don't have to deal with as many people because people [00:28:00] are absolutely everything to me, right?

I love people so much, and they make life worth living. However, they can be very draining as well, and going into a social situation just takes a hell of a lot of energy. And I love social situations, but I do tend to avoid them if possible. Or if I do go out, they'll be quite short.

Because it just drains the crap out of me, and I'm just trying to be okay with everybody all the time. It's just nuts. It gives the outward appearance of being a very likable person in some cases, but there's a huge price to pay for it.

It would be nice to not give quite so much of a crap about what people think all the time. But it's just totally how I live. I live by the sword, die by the sword, you know?

Haley Radke: It would be so nice to live that way.

Gareth Price: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. Sorry. That's [00:29:00] so funny. Do you mind, can we talk a little bit about your sister?

So you were saying she was an angry adoptee even as a kind of a younger age in her teens. Left home. And then you said you also have this anger that's inside and that you've dealt with that for a long time. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Gareth Price: I think a lot of it comes from pretty much everything that I've just said.

Even at the age of 45, I still automatically walk into a room and imagine that something's gotta be my fault. Even if I've just walked into the room, it's Oh God, what have I done? And just from holding all that stuff in and from not being able to express anger whenever I've been upset at something, like particularly growing up with a really aggressive father.

Before he died about four years ago, he had about nine months, poor chap, in a bed in the home. So I got to talk about a lot of this and I told him that [00:30:00] I loved him and I forgive him and stuff. But I haven't, I just told him that because I wanted him to die happy.

It's just an example of how it would be better if I'd been able to say no and just tell people to F off or to just basically own my own life as opposed to be living everybody else's life.

Yeah. It's just so difficult to just relax. It's like all this tension from trying to please everybody so nobody will be upset or angry at me ever. It's just unbelievably tiring. And it just mounts up all this intense amount of repressed rage and all this sort of stuff. And, just all that stuff about why the (beep) did he give me up and all this sort of thing.

And you can rationalize it until the proverbial cows come home. But at the end of the day, it's this raw emotion and the frustration that people just don't get it. And [00:31:00] except for coming to listen to you guys and read about your experiences, and just trying to feel included, trying to feel a part of something, trying to live a relatively normal life and just feel like a relatively normal person, because how it feels is not like that. How it feels is it feels like everybody else has got something that I will never have.

And that's heartbreaking. That's what it feels like pretty much all the time. The alienation and the anger from being so disastrously unique.

Haley Radke: I'm just curious about your feelings and your sister's feelings about adoption. Because you said, you grew up and you had these same experiences and yet you feel differently.

Gareth Price: I think that she does still have all these feelings, but she doesn't talk to me. I feel guilty because we don't really have as close a relationship as twins should have or [00:32:00] brother and sister, or whatever. I think we're getting closer as we get older, but she's quite different to me.

She's quite a different person. Like we're, at our core, we're basically the same, but I think that she has the same feelings, like every so often she'll open up a little bit. But it's just one of the two ways to deal with it. It's like you either pretty much shut down as much as you can about that side, because it's just too much to deal with.

Or, you start going into it the whole way. There doesn't seem to be much in between. Especially as you get older, you have to go quite ferociously at it, or you just have to just block it out of your head forever. And that's what I feel like my birth mother has done.

If she started looking into it, my fear is that it would just be too much for her to handle because there's just so much there. And I can understand how people do that, but it doesn't make it any easier, [00:33:00] really.

Haley Radke: Let's shift to talking about what are some things that you have done, like you said that a lot of these feelings come out in your artwork. And you said you've been to therapy on and off. So what are some other things that you've done to pursue healing?

Gareth Price: Listen to your podcast. Um, books are quite helpful. Everything is sort of helpful. Therapy, and I'm reading this book at the moment.

Oh no, I've read the book called Adoption Therapy: Perspectives from Clients and Clinicians. Have you read that one, edited by Laura Dennis?

Haley Radke: Yes, I have it.

Gareth Price: And the Coming Home to Self is the one that I'm reading at the moment and that one is the most intense one I'm reading. I'm having to read it very slowly because there's so much in it. It's like I can get through about maybe one or two pages and then I have to put it down and go, Oh my goodness, that's just intense.

Yeah, but to change the habits of a lifetime, even alter them [00:34:00] slightly, is very hard. And I've had, you know, ongoing addiction problems. Like I had alcohol issues for many years and it's just the numbing out a little bit. There’s the three options which are option one is just living as you are with your pain and trying to get by with it.

Option two is doing a drug or something and basically feeling better temporarily, which is, that's the attraction of it, it's reliable. Or option three is doing therapy which eventually does do a lot of good, but it takes so long. I've done it on and off for years.

And it does help, the best therapy really does help and it's wonderful. And it's made my life a better place, but sometimes all it does is just make you aware of what the actual issue is. It just shines a light on it and makes you more aware of it. Which is helpful, but [00:35:00] initially it's a struggle like when you feel like, Oh my goodness, so that's all that I've got to deal with, oh goodness.

Haley Radke: When you were talking about reading the book one page at a time, I was like, Oh, I've totally done that because I read a page and I'm like, Oh my god, that's another thing I have? Come on, I already have a hundred problems.

Gareth Price: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's an advantage, my fiancée is a psychotherapist. That's an advantage. I feel like when she comes home from work, from seeing however many screwed-up people, and then it’s coming home to another one. It’s kind of like, Oh God, how was your day, Gareth?

Oh, you really want to know? I spent it sitting doing my painting and having an existential crisis for eight hours.

Haley Radke: It's interesting that you say that because you must be while you're painting, you're in this other world, but it's still in your head. [00:36:00]

Gareth Price: I describe myself as a skeptic who lives in a fantasy world. The other podcasts I listen to they're about UFOs and aliens and stuff. But they're skeptical views on them. There's this one called Skeptoid, which I like a lot, and things like that. So I find that stuff really quite grounding.

Haley Radke: I love that your playlist has that and Adoptees On on it. That makes me so happy.

Gareth Price: Oh, I did alright then, did I? Skeptoid and Adoptees On. Woohoo! And there's also another one called Strange Matters, which is good, too. This is where my brain goes from day to day. I think my head is a nice place to visit, but it's not that great living there.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Can we talk a little bit about your relationship with your fiancée? Are you okay with that?

Gareth Price: Yeah, sure.

Haley Radke: I'm curious about how you've [00:37:00] expressed to her your adoption issues and if she got it right away, or like that kind of dynamic.

Gareth Price: Adoption issues to me seem virtually to be all trauma issues essentially. And she's got lots of books about it, and she's studied many years about how to deal with trauma.

And that's essentially what it is. It's healing trauma. Just this year, I remember reading this comparison between being given up at birth and PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder, and it really knocked me for six. It's Oh (beep), is it actually that bad?

Is it actually? And all the categories fit. It's just nuts, and that really blew me away. Cause it's like, do you have this and this? And it's, Oh yeah, I do. Oh my goodness. And God knows how many other adoptees feel the same way. I'm assuming there's quite a lot [00:38:00] judging by what I've seen on the good old internet.

But yeah, it is a form of PTSD. And it's like, jeepers, that's so intense. It's been good to talk to her about it. She tells me it's okay, that I can talk to her whenever I want to, but I still try to pick my moments because it's what she does professionally. So I try to not burden her with it too much.

She's really great, and in some ways I wish that she'd tell me to not talk to her about it every so often, but she's never like that. It's like she's too giving, and I don't know why that's a problem for me. That's a very odd issue to have. I don't know, maybe it's something about I don't deserve it or something like that. I don't know, I'm just an emotional minefield.

Haley Radke: Even when you're talking about adoption trauma as a form of [00:39:00] PTSD and when I hear that comparison, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I feel guilty because is my pain the same as someone who is a soldier that comes back from a minefield? It's just one more layer of feeling guilty and having trauma and just, ugh.

Gareth Price: Yeah, I remember reading or listening to somebody who was saying something about disassociation that happens to trauma victims. And that's always been a really big thing for me, dissociative feelings, like this kind of separating from the reality of my surroundings. It happens every so often, and it's really frightening.

And it wasn't until I started reading these books, and, a few years ago now, that I actually started to find some relief. And thank God. Because you just feel completely mad. And panic attacks. There was a period of about maybe two years where I couldn't go to the [00:40:00] supermarket. And I stopped going to the movies because I'd hyperventilate and things like that. It's just terrible.

It's absolutely dreadful. In that sense alcohol was a savior. I remember when I first started to see a psychologist, one of the first things he said was, Congratulations, you learned to medicate with alcohol. That was a very clever thing to do. And I thought that he was being sarcastic, but he wasn't. And that was a very helpful thing that he said. He said it's quite a natural way for you to adjust to your surroundings.

And there's this other thing that was about how when whole towns are destroyed by whatever happens, like some kind of natural disaster or whatever, all these kids and families and stuff, they experienced this great massive trauma, but then they seem to recover from it in a relatively quick way in the intervening years to come, and it's primarily because, this is what this article was saying, it's primarily because the people around them [00:41:00] know that what they experienced was traumatic and they relate to them accordingly.

Whereas with adoption it's not like that. You don't get that. It's like people just see it as this miracle fix and they don't recognize it as trauma. And there's no mirroring of your experience. I think that's the most dangerous thing, and that's the reason why it's so incredibly alienating.

It's like, Hello, I'm being raised by these strangers in this family where none of them look or behave like me. I remember meeting my obviously birth mother, and that was amazing, but even bigger than that was meeting all my birth father's family, a lot of them at one time, and seeing things like their eye shape, or their nose shape, or gestures that they would do, or jokes that they would crack.

That's just unbelievable. You can't explain that to somebody. To actually be able to see, [00:42:00] to actually be able to see yourself in other people when you haven't had it ever is the most amazing gift that I've ever had, ever. And it's true, just seeing your biology reflected in those around you.

If you haven't had it, it's unbelievable to just have it and to just feel that connection. And even things like scent, this sounds a bit weird, but it's true. It's like people have their particular scents, smells and things, they're subtle. But that's massive.

All that sort of stuff, it's like you just get this, just everything. Even if you don't click with them amazingly as people, you still get that biological reflection of yourself. And it's unbelievable. It took me quite a while to realize how big an impact it actually had on me.

Haley Radke: And you grew up with a sister.

Gareth Price: Yeah, exactly, and I grew up with a sister, yeah, [00:43:00] but we are very different. She's blonde and she's got quite a different face shape. I don't know, we're just two people born at the same time.

Haley Radke: I so appreciate you sharing your story.

So for this series, Season 3 is the Creative Series, my recommendations are to go and check out my guests’ work. I go and see Gareth's website. He's got all of these amazing photos of his artwork there. And you could stare at one for a very long time and not see everything.

You've got so many different objects in each painting. And you can guess what Gareth was thinking when he was painting this, all the symbolism. You'll probably get people messaging you saying what does the whale in the sky mean?

Gareth Price: From a purely business perspective, I do have prints. If [00:44:00] anybody wants to buy prints, I'll give you a good deal. But, anyway, I have particular meanings for each painting, but I'll generally only tell people if they ask, because you always bring yourself to the work, obviously. And I think it was the great Picasso who made some comment about the viewer completes the work. And it's very true.

And you bring your own experiences. And I love talking about my work, I really do, but I don't want to push it on people. I certainly will if they ask what something's about I can totally tell them. But otherwise, not everybody wants to know, some people are just happy with the mystery.

I don't know if anybody else watched Twin Peaks, the second series or the third series of Twin Peaks that just finished. It was wonderful, but it was a bit frustrating because David Lynch is a bit [00:45:00] like that. He's very much an artist and he left the mystery hanging open.

That's what art is really good at if it's worthwhile art. I feel it opens people up a little bit and peeks into bits of them that perhaps they didn't know were there. Or they might wonder why they like one picture over another picture, like why did I like that picture? Because it's actually quite dark. Or why do I like that one? I don't normally like that kind of thing, and all that sort of stuff.

I've found that time and again with works of art that I like. What's relatable to me about that? I don't even know. My subconscious liked it before my conscious did.

Haley Radke: I just want to walk through an art gallery with you. You're too far away from me.

Gareth Price: I'm right here on the screen.

Haley Radke: It's true. It's true. Oh I'm having like, you're giving me art lessons. It's wonderful. What would you like to recommend?

Gareth Price: It's a bit tricky for this one. I did think about it a bit. [00:46:00] I don't really know too many artists at all that I know whether they're adopted or not. What I've seen of Shannon Peck. Yeah, I haven't seen that in the flesh, but that seems really pointed and really quite amazing. I think that's incredible.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I got to interview her for Season 3 and dig into a lot of what she did in her exhibit, “Your Daughter is in Good Hands.”

Gareth Price: Oh, great! Oh, that's awesome. I'm trying to have the courage to deal with adoption a bit more directly in the works that I'm doing. Like, I've got this one painting that I'm doing that is almost finished and it's called “The Statue of Eternal Maternity.” And it continues with the theme of people surviving trauma and how they cope with it. But in terms of recommended resources, I think it's art and music. They're so personal, I think I could list a whole bunch of artists that I [00:47:00] like, like Dali, of course, and Alex Gross, and there's heaps of them, but all this stuff is just so personal, and also music is a massive thing for me.

Anything that makes you really feel something is a recommended resource. I just found my lost iPod which I last used about 10 years ago. And it's got all these wonderful songs on it that I haven't heard for a long time. And so I just walk around, just go for a walk and put the iPod on.

And music really helps me emote. If I'm feeling upset about something and I feel like I need to cry or get really angry or something, then I'll go to a particular song and it really helps. It really does. There's a lot to be said for it.

So I can only recommend people to just do what they do anyway, and in that sense just put on their favorite sad song or their favorite happy song, or go on the internet and find their favorite [00:48:00] whatever it is, you know?

Haley Radke: There's a lot to be said about making space for that. Our lives are very full and we're always listening to different things and not necessarily music. For me, I have podcasts always on, but making space for that, going for a walk and listening to some music and stuff. Yeah.

Gareth Price: Yeah, that's the recommended resource that I would say is just to take the time for yourself and, if it is a podcast or whatever it is you listen to, just go for a walk or just take time to feel your emotions, which is the most important thing,

Haley Radke: That feels scary.

Gareth Price: It is very scary. Yeah, just anything that you want that really grounds you or helps you. Helps you emote. Yeah, it just really helps you connect with what you're trying to connect to. It's not really for me to say because it's so personal. I like Radiohead. There's a Scottish electronic duo called Boards of Canada, who I absolutely love, and there's a whole bunch of stuff, there's just [00:49:00] endless amounts of Prince, anything by Prince. This is all personal to me and it just connects me to bits of myself that I was going to say that I can't get to any other way, but that's not entirely true. It just helps, it just really helps if you get that great feeling from a great artist if it's a musical or a visual artist. And just go there if you need to. You know better than anybody what that is. Or alternatively, go to my website and I'll fulfill every desire that you have.

Haley Radke: Yes. Where can we connect with you online?

Gareth Price: www.garethprice.co.nz, G-A-R-E-T-H-P-R-I-C-E. And I've got a few works that I need to put up on it. But it's got a little bit about me, my art on there.

Haley Radke: There's even a video clip which shows some of your work. I watched it today. And you're also on Facebook. People want to check you out there and connect with you there.

Gareth Price: It's Gareth Price and there's a photo of a pelican trying to [00:50:00] catch a fish.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much for sharing some of your story and really diving into some of the things you've struggled with. I really appreciate how candid you've been with us. Thank you.

Gareth Price: Oh, that's all I did. Thank you very much. I was very honored to be asked. Thank you very much. It's been, yeah, it's been awesome. Thank you so much.

Haley Radke: Gareth has just finished up this piece called “The Statue of Eternal Maternity” and he showed it to me when we had our interview and he just sent me a photo of it. Guys, it's amazing. I can't wait for him to share it. He described it to me as comfort after trauma and it's exactly that and isn't that what we need? Oh, I just love it.

This podcast is brought to you every week because of my monthly supporters and Gareth is one of those generous Patreon supporters. And he's a part of the Secret [00:51:00] Adoptees On Facebook Group, like he mentioned. This private and safe space for adoptees only is my way of thanking you for partnering up with Adoptees On.

It's a mix of past guests and listeners, just like you, who are looking for an intimate and supportive community. Only myself and the other members will know you're a member. That's what secret group means. And if you want to join, you can visit adopteeson.com/partner for the details or you can just message me on Twitter or Facebook or adopteeson.com if you have any questions.

Speaking of adoptees, which we always are, I have a little message here for you from a fellow adoptee.

Paige Adams Strickland: Hi, everyone. My name is Paige Strickland, and I'm an adoptee from Cincinnati, Ohio. I've written two memoirs about my experiences as an adult adopted person, Akin to the Truth and After the Truth.

The first focuses on childhood and growing up. The brand new book, After the Truth, focuses on life as a reunited adopted adult and how adoption influences my teaching, parenting and friendships. [00:52:00] Books are available through Amazon and Kindle.

Haley Radke: Thanks for sending that in, Paige. If you're an adoptee and would like to promote your work on the podcast, head over to adopteeson.com/connect and click on the little microphone. You can record your message and I'd be happy to share it on a future episode of the show. I love hearing your voices.

Last thing today, guys, would you do me a favor and share the show with a friend that doesn't even know what a podcast is? I would love for you to take their phone, subscribe them to this show and one or two of your other favorite podcasts.

This is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. They're happy because podcasts are amazing, right? And you're happy because you look like a technological genius, which you are. And I'm thrilled to have a new listener. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday [00:53:00].