61 Paige - In the Workplace

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/61

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Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season Four, episode 3: Paige. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Paige Strickland shares with us today about the complexity of building relationships in the workplace as an adopted person many years into her career.

Paige has a unique vantage point to give us an overview of what it was like 30 years ago, if you even broached the subject of adoption reunion with a colleague all the way to present day and what it's like for her now. We talk jobs, the difficulty some of us have building friendships, and the extra layer of feeling inadequate that some of us contend with daily.

We wrap up with some recommended resources, including a chance for you to connect with Paige in person coming up, and as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Paige Strickland. Welcome, Paige.

Paige Adams Strickland: Thank you.

Haley Radke: I think we met in person, is that right?

Paige Adams Strickland: I think we did a year ago at the… You were at the Indiana…?

Haley Radke: Indiana Adoptee Network

Paige Adams Strickland: Indiana Adoptee Network Conference a year ago. The one in Bloomington?

Haley Radke: Yes. Okay. I thought we met there. Yes. So good.

Well, I'm so pleased to talk with you today, and I'm gonna ask you a question I've never asked anyone that I've had on the show before (so I'm kind of excited).

But let's start out with, why don't you share some of your story with us?

Paige Adams Strickland: I was adopted in Ohio in the United States in ‘61. I was placed in 1962. I was 13 months old when I was placed. I'm assuming the adoption went through within six months of that. I grew up in the same town, lived in the same town my entire life (except for a three year stint in Florida. Then I came back). In ‘87, I started my search, because I realized I could (because I was born before that cutoff date in Ohio).

Haley Radke: Oh, say more about that. What's the cutoff date in Ohio?

Paige Adams Strickland: Well, there isn't one anymore. Yay! Because in 2015, they changed the law back. But prior to that it was, you had to be born and adopted in the state of Ohio before January 1st, ‘64. And since I was ‘61/’62, I was in the open records era. Now, my parents that adopted me never realized that.

I think at the time, the only thing that went through their mind was getting a baby, you know. And they didn't think about laws; they didn't keep up with anything. They saw what they wanted to see. They heard what they wanted to hear, and they got what they wanted. And it was a “closed” adoption, so they just went on with life after that.

But the law said, “Yes, but…” You know, and so I found out from watching a TV talk show back in the eighties, “Oh yeah. I could find my birth family if I wrote to Columbus and sent them this, the registered check or whatever (for 20 bucks or whatever it was),” and found my birth family. So they sent me a birth certificate and with all the information my name change document, my decree of adoption, you know, everything matched up and it was all, you know, correct information that I got from the state.

And so then I started searching, and I found everybody. And so that was pre-internet, of course (because it was the late eighties). You know, it's been good. It's been successful. Not everybody gets as lucky as I got, but I got lucky. So that's the really fast version of history. [they laugh]

And my sisters (my birth mother's other daughters), my sisters there, we're planning a 30 year reunion/get together something or other this summer. Because in July, it'll be our 30 year anniversary.

Haley Radke: Wow.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah. So I don't know what we're gonna do yet. You know, there's talk of going to Disneyland. There's talk of maybe just hanging out at somebody's house for a week and just hanging out. I don't know how it'll work out. I said (I told my one sister), “The most important thing is just us being together. I don't care where it is, how we do it.”

Haley Radke: That's amazing.

Okay, well here's the question that I never ask anyone and–

Paige Adams Strickland: Alright. Bring it on. Bring it on.

Haley Radke: And I do it on purpose, because people come on to talk about their adoption story and their experiences with adoption. So I never ask: So, what do you do for work?

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah. Technically, I am licensed as a Spanish teacher (7-12), in Ohio. So you know, if you go legally by that, that's my answer. Right now, I'm working as a special needs aide for high school kids. I've got junior high through high school kids in a special ed classroom. They're semi-contained, meaning we don't contain anybody and shut the door anymore, you know. They are integrated in other classrooms as well. So sometimes we're aides in other classrooms with other teachers, with our students, supporting them as needed.

We collaborate with our main teacher in our classroom and we can collaborate with the other teachers of the main subject areas. And we all work together, and it's great. And I love what I do. Every day is different. And even though I'm an aide and not a “teacher teacher,” it's the best of all worlds. I just love it.

Haley Radke: Hmm. So you trained to be a teacher?

Paige Adams Strickland: Mm-hmm.

Haley Radke: And you sent me sort of, it was almost like your resume. So I saw some of your past jobs. Because what we're talking about today is relationships with our coworkers, and just living in the workforce as an adoptee. And how that is different than someone who's not adopted.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah. Sending you a resume was kind of like, “Well, here's my work history and here's what happened to me.” And you know, I'm sure there are non-adopted people that can also relate to some things that go on, but you know, I know how it worked for me. That's all I can say there. And still works for me. It's not like I'm retired! [they laugh] I'll be working till I'm 80 or 90, I'm sure.

Haley Radke: Well, when you love what you do, right?

Paige Adams Strickland: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's really great in that way, in that I am happy with all the work I do. I started out (aside from weekend jobs and babysitting and all the other little small job things that people do), my first real “professional” job after college, I got a job teaching Spanish. And I was very fortunate, really, to be able to get a job in my city.

And I have to give my husband some credit here–we were honeys at the time and he was new on the computer (at the time). And he helped me crank out a bunch of application letters and thank you letters to interviewers and things like that. I basically sent out 50 applications all over town, got a few callbacks for some interviews, got hired with a job offer at one place. I mean, that's how tight the job market really has been.

It was in a private Catholic school. And I've actually worked in two private Catholic schools, because the first one I was at, I was laid off after four years (because they had declining enrollment and some money issues). I got reabsorbed into the system in another Catholic high school in the same city here (we're in Cincinnati). Pretty much, I've got 20 years in the archdiocese. That's what I've done as a main job to start with, until this aide job with special needs kids came around.

Yeah, I was a Spanish teacher. It was a great job. But I never fully felt like I fit in. And part of that might've been because I'm not a Catholic. I remember my first boss said, “Oh, well we hire people from all walks of life.” It was kinda like, Oh, I'm the token non-Catholic from all walks of life that you're hiring. Okay, well I'll take it. You know? I'll deal with it. It's a job. I don't care about anything else. It's a job, you know, it's a nice school, nice people, nice place. You know? And that's the job that only lasted four years because the enrollment declined.

And then I got hired somewhere else, fortunately, because somebody knew somebody who knew somebody. And that's how I kind of got hired there. But again, I went through–it was almost harder there. I don't know why, but it was even harder there to feel accepted and feel like I was one of them. And I was just as qualified and just as good as any of them.

I'm sure the adoptee part of that played into it. Some of it was, again, I'm not of that faith, so there was always sort of a dividing line between “me” and “them.” And some of it was, I just questioned myself. I think adopted people in the general sense have a lower self-esteem and they question themselves. They question what they do, they question how well they do it. They worry all the time that, Something's gonna go wrong, somebody's gonna reject me. And so I kind of had that weight on me all the time when I went to work.

I loved the kids, I loved what I was teaching. Most of the people I worked with, I loved them. But there were a few, you know, but then that's true in every workplace. There's always a few turkeys everywhere you go. It doesn't matter who you are. It's just how it is.

Haley Radke: So what's it like, just being in the staff room and chatting with your peers or in a staff meeting? What are sort of the day-to-day interactions when you're a teacher with your colleagues?

Paige Adams Strickland: I learned real early on, “Keep your mouth shut and listen.” There are a lot of people (and I don't have a master's degree, so I always felt, too, that maybe I was lesser because I don't have that master's degree). So maybe what I had to say didn't hold as much weight as somebody with a higher degree.

And I don't know if that's true or not. I do not work in a setting like that now, but at the time where I felt like, I'm not worthy enough. Yet here I am because I am the token Protestant. [they laugh] I just kept my mouth shut a lot, let other people talk (whether it was good stuff, negative stuff). There was a lot of negative stuff, a lot of complaining about kids, a lot of judgment about people, and I just—I'm not into that. I'm just not into that. I'm not into confrontation, I'm not into the negativity, especially when it comes to kids learning.

It was hard for me in school. I certainly wasn't gonna be “that woman” for anybody else. The thing I learned– When I was a kid in school (and I wanted to be a teacher my whole life), to not be “that person,” “that teacher,” or that one that makes a kid cry. You know, I never wanted to have a kid in my classroom that went home and cried to the parents or somebody because they had the meanest Spanish teacher in the whole world, or something. You know? I just, I didn't want that. I don't care how easy or nice I have to be. I am not gonna be that person to somebody.

Haley Radke: Yeah. You said it's like, “you gotta keep your mouth shut” kind of thing. Were there any events or circumstances where you felt like you needed to speak up about something?

Paige Adams Strickland: Oh, definitely. Yeah. As an adopted person going through my search and reunion… Okay. I knew where the church stood on that kind of activity (which pretty much wasn't in line with what I was doing), which was— Even though I didn't even have a Catholic Social Services adoption. My parents that raised me went through Hamilton County Social Services or Welfare Department. It was totally public. It had nothing to do with the church, but knowing that I was still doing something that their church would never have really approved of or liked (because I was beating a system in a way), I had to keep my mouth shut about that.

And that was kind of awkward. I had a couple of coworkers that I could trust, but I still really felt limited in what I could share. So, and because I didn't wanna… I was a rebel. I was a questioner, I was a rebel. I was, you know, not like the rest of them in that kind of way. And I remember, there was one year we had a pregnant student in the building. And again, back in the eighties this was still like, “Ooh….,” you know? And in the eighties in a private girls school (not like public schools today, where you have like 12 of them, you know)... Back then, when it was still very conservative and very like, “We don't talk about these things” kind of setting and her locker was really close to my room.

But I didn't know her. I didn't teach her. I had no dealings with her at all. I only knew who she was because she was the pregnant kid. And you know, out of like 450 kids, she kind of stood out, and so I knew which kid she was, even though I didn't really have any kind of a relationship with her. So I never knew if I could say anything to her. And I knew she was giving her baby up for adoption. I didn't know what resource she was going through, whether it was Catholic Social Services, or whether it was through county welfare. I just couldn't ask too many questions, because I just didn't know this kid and I didn't wanna impose my opinions or beliefs on her. But, you know, I think about her a lot still. I wonder what happened to her.

Haley Radke: Paige, can you tell me, did you ever have any conversations with colleagues about your reunion or just being adopted? Did that ever come up?

Paige Adams Strickland: I have now. At the time, when I was going through it, there was one colleague I could discuss it with. I still kept it to a minimum, but I could discuss it a little bit. And you know, she was pretty accepting about it, but even she was like, “Well. Just lay low. It's really cool what you're doing, but we gotta lay low.” And so that was how we dealt with it.

But now, I work in a workplace where I don't– It came up Friday. I was talking with somebody I work with and I was saying, “What are you doing this weekend? Well, I'm having dinner with my sister tonight. And my other sisters, we're planning this 30 year reunion and, you know, we might end up in Disneyland. I don't know. We have to plan it and we've gotta figure out where we wanna be and how much we wanna spend and all that kind of stuff.” She was like, “Oh, that is so cool.”

So, yeah, now I can talk about it very freely. And another really nice thing— At the start of the school year (last tail end of August), we had a little seminar day before actual back to school day. This little session we had, we had some students volunteer to come in and it was a “What is it like for a day through the eyes of a teenager at this school”? And we had a panel of like six kids come in (very diverse panel). They pretty much had a sampling of every type of kid you think of that would be in a high school. It's like putting the cast of Glee together, you know? If you will?

They all asked us, too (at the start of the little workshop thing), everybody sitting in the room, “Whether you were a student or whether you were an adult in the room, share one “special” thing about yourself that other people probably don't know.” And so I shared that, “I'm an adopted person and I found my birth family, and I'm in reunion, and it's awesome.” And the kids on the panel were like, “Whoa, that's so awesome. That's so cool. What's it like?” You know, I mean, the response was wonderful. You know, that's what everybody should be saying: “What's it like?” Not like, “Oh, well, what's wrong with the family you have?” You know, I mean, the kids— This is the thing, the kids get it. The kids understand.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. Well, and as you say, over time, you know, reunion has become more normalized. So you were saying, talking to your peers now, it's sort of (I don't know), “normal.” It's just sort of part of life.

Paige Adams Strickland: Right, yeah. Thirty years now. Yeah. I've watched the sort of—what do you wanna call that—transformation maybe is the word? Of,“Oh, we don't talk about those things. We might be breaking rules if we talk about those things. Somebody might not approve if we talk about those things.” All the way to, “Cool. Tell me more. Tell me all about it.” It's kind of nice. I'm seeing that change.

Haley Radke: Have you ever had to navigate a really awkward conversation about your views on adoption that may be different than some of your colleagues? For example?

Paige Adams Strickland: You know, I haven't had anything much with the people I work with, and mainly because years ago I just kept my mouth shut.

Haley Radke: Right?

Paige Adams Strickland: I know when I got “zip my lip" here and just like “fake it till I make it.” And if I wanna keep my job, if I want people to get along with me, and I want to get along with them, and I don't want people to see me in some sort of a different awkward way, keep my mouth shut and blend in.

I had a job (this was again, back in the eighties), it was a retail job. Of course, no teacher makes enough money, right? So we all moonlight and do extra jobs. And I had a mall job (right in the eighties that was the thing). Everybody had mall jobs, because if you had a mall job, then you got a mall discount.

Oh, I worked in a little clothing shop. They sold cutesy, little preppy men's and ladies clothes and it was great, because it was stuff I could wear to work. It was stuff I could wear out socially. So, I mean, I loved the clothes in the store. You know, when I was a kid, I'd see the store and I could never afford anything in there.

And then I got a job in that store. It was like, “Oh, I get a discount! Yes!” So, and I was there three years and I loved that job. I was with coworkers where we all felt like family, you know? And it's like they can pay you crap, but if you are working with people you love, you'll do it because it's just such a nice environment.

Right. And I came to find out over time as I was working there, it was a little mom and pop family owned business. My manager was a good buddy of the owner, so that's how he got placed in the management position in the store I was at. I found out he was an adoptive father. He and his wife (obviously, then was an adoptive mother), and their kids, when it was summer vacation or spring break, would work in the store with us. Sometimes the rest of the time they were in school. But again, it was like, I better keep my mouth shut here, because he's an adoptive parent. The mom, she's an adoptive mom. You know, the kids are still teenagers working here. I don't know if I should share anything. They might not want me “corrupting” their kids or putting ideas in their kids' heads.

I couldn't share that part of myself because I didn't know how it would be received here. I was in Ohio with an open record going, I'm gonna find my birth family because I got an open record. You know? So I didn't want the kids to feel bad because I could do something they couldn't do. I didn't want the parents to feel bad, because I was doing something kind of rebellious, and maybe they didn't want me putting ideas in their kids' heads.

Again, that was the eighties. It's not now. If I were to take a job at a mall now, I don't think it would matter. You know? Yeah. It's different now. It's so different. So it's so much better. And you know, some of that's because of what we see on TV and what we see in the news. People are better about acceptance, tolerance, and diversity. You know, it's a good thing.

I have a student now who's a mentally challenged person, but she's lovely. She really is, but she is a part of a kinship adoption, so a much older second cousin adopted her (so her adoptive mother is actually a second cousin). Her birth mother kind of plays the role of a cousin, although it's really her birth mother. She does have contact with them because it's all the same family, at least on the one side of the family. I don't know about the birth father. I don't know anything there, but the birth mother (because she's actually a cousin), you know, they're all in touch. The birth mother also had some mental challenges and psychological challenges, which is why she couldn't take care of the daughter.

And so this goes with that modern thinking of, you know, if an adoption has to happen, can you go the kinship route and keep the child, at least in the family? With the blood relatives, give them an authentic history, be able to be honest and open about who's who and what's really going on? And you know, with this kid a couple of years ago, she had to turn in that project with the family tree, which many adopted people are like [barf,] right? I don't…

Haley Radke: The dreaded like

Paige Adams Strickland: triggering

Haley Radke: project. Yes.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah. And I wasn't working with her at the time that this happened. Another instructor was with her. But I heard about it and I just kind of kept my mouth shut. And Let's see how this turns out. This is gonna be interesting. You know, I have other students that I need to tend to. Let's see… But I’m just watching. Let's wait and see. Well, this girl, she rocked the world. She turned in the biggest, fattest, blown up family tree you could ever imagine that any typical, any kid could have turned in. It was gorgeous. It had everything on there. It had more than the teacher ever dreamed would have turned up on any kid's project. She really kind of blew it out of the water. You know, like in the way that she could redefine, “What is family?” and, “Who's related to whom?” And what that looks like. And it's not the same for everybody.

Haley Radke: I love that.

Paige Adams Strickland: It was a special needs kid of all kids that could do something like that and get up there, kind of like with pride, you know, waving her fist in the air, saying, “This is me, this is where I fit into it. Any questions?” And yeah, she had the best project of anybody. Out of probably 75 kids that turned in a project that day.

Haley Radke: Yeah. What a testament to her kinship adoption and her situation.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah. And it was just so unique and so eye-opening for other people. I'm looking at it going, Hmm, I know all about that stuff. Hmm. But you know, other students and other teachers looked at that and they were like, “Wow.”

Yeah, and I'm over on the side going, “Yes, yes, yes, yes!”

Haley Radke: I love that story. So good.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay, so Paige, what would you say just about this conversation in general, like is there a place for us to be talking about adoption in the workplace? I mean, you just gave a really great example of how you've got this connection with this student and you were talking about interacting with those kids on the panel previously.

Paige Adams Strickland: Mm-hmm.

Haley Radke: And having those kind of discussions. How about with peers? And I'm just kind of talking in a broad sense (not necessarily in your situation), but broadly, you know, we can feel that reunion and maybe our adoptee issues are so intensely personal. We only kind of share them with a few of our inner circle.

So can you speak to that a little bit?

Paige Adams Strickland: Again, now I share with everybody. I don't hold it back. I mean, that's part of who I am. It's part of how I live my life. This is part of my family. It's part of my circle of people. For example, when my birth father passed away and I needed to take a bereavement day, no big deal. He was my birth father, you know? He wasn't my “father father,” but he was my birth father. I got to take my bereavement day. Same as if he were anybody else. It's different now. One point I might have been afraid to speak up about that, but I work in a setting where it's not a problem anymore.

But yeah, and I work with people now. I'm very fortunate, you know, they're all…they wanna hear about it, you know, they're excited, and they're curious, and they ask questions, and they don't think of me as some sort of goofy rebel that's breaking a bunch of rules or doing things we shouldn't talk about. So it's really nice. I have freedom now.

Haley Radke: That is so good. I guess my other question for you is: Do you feel like being adopted has impacted your work in any way, maybe even your decision for a career that you've gravitated towards? Do you feel that it's impacted how you work, how you live as an employee?

Paige Adams Strickland: Well, I know I was raised with a good work ethic. So, I mean, I had to work for stuff if I wanted it, you know, if it was a new bike, I had to work for it. If it was a privilege, I had to do something to earn that privilege (that kind of thing). You know, after having done all my search and finding my family, it's wired into me as well, to be a worker, to work hard for the things you want, and do a good job.

Don't stop. Mediocrity, because everybody that I work with in my family, or everybody in my family that I know, we're all kind of the same about our jobs. And you know, that's an important thing. I mean, that's our livelihood. It's part of how we define ourselves.

I will say this, it's real interesting. I started out as an educator and now I'm working as an education aide with special needs people. I have one sister who is an education aide, but she went the tech route and she's in the library, but she's still an aide like me. And then I have two sisters that work with mentally challenged adults, so they get the people that I have in high school a few years later, when they're adults. My one sister that lives here in town, we've actually had some of the same people. It's just, I get them first and then she gets them next.

Haley Radke: So are you saying careers are genetic? Whoa.

Paige Adams Strickland: I think there could be, in some ways, a link if you're drawn to some similar things and it's just temperaments It's, yeah…We have similar callings in that way.

Haley Radke: Wow.

Paige Adams Strickland: Similar, the way we just look at people, and things, and what's important. And three of my sisters, that we've all kind of gone in very similar paths as far as who we work with, and the way we work, and what we like, you know? And what we get out of our workday. I think that's kind of cool.

Haley Radke: Yeah. That's so cool.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah, I think it definitely has made me more understanding of kids that have unique needs, if not always special needs (like the way we think of special needs with learning challenges, or problems, or something). But just kids that aren't—they don't fit the typical mold, you know? Because I never saw myself as a kid that fit the typical mold, because I knew I had a different start from 99.99% of the kids I ever went to school with. I was kind of drawn to, “That's the kind of people I wanna work with,” you know? And even going into Spanish education, Okay!” (I'm gonna go in and study something that people might see differently now. But at the time, Well, this is a unique thing. This is kind of an exotic thing. There aren't that many people in my area that speak Spanish.

Now, of course, now you'd laugh at that because there are a lot of Spanish speakers and yeah, I was just drawn to things in people that were like not the norm. So in that sense, I'm thinking, Yeah, maybe adoption could have had something to do with that. You know, if I wasn't an adopted kid, what would I have done? I don't know. Maybe I would've, you know—My dad was in sales with the phone company. Maybe I would've been more of a sales and marketing kind of person. I don't know.

Haley Radke: Is there anything else you want to say to us on this topic about just navigating relationships with colleagues, navigating life just in the workforce?

Paige Adams Strickland: As an adopted person, I know for a long time (I don't think this way now)--- But for a long time, especially when I was first out of school and not that experienced yet with work and stuff, I kind of saw myself as the help and not as an equal with other workers and I think that goes with that low self-esteem thing that a lot of adopted people go through.

I'm not saying every adopted person goes through that, but a lot of them do. They question things about themselves and their existence and their worthiness (and I know I did). That may have held me back a little bit and messed with my confidence level, my self-esteem level. It was–(I don't feel that way now), but I felt that way then and now.

I'm glad to be where I'm at doing what I do. And I think a lot of adoptive people, too, they have a hard time making friends and thinking that the friendships they do have are secure, that people won't just up and leave them or move on (and that kind of thing). And it was hard to make work friends when I was starting out.

I think some of it, too, was I was in a very intense environment (and it had nothing to do with me), but I was too inexperienced at the time to know that. And when that bell rang and kids left and you got to leave, like, I don't know, seven minutes after the buses left (or whatever your contract said), people just left. It was not social. People were kind and nice, and you sat with them at lunch or you passed them in the hall and people would say, “Hi.” But man, when it was time to go, you were done. You know? And there weren't a lot of friendships outside of work.

You know, what do you do when you're young and you're trying to make friends and you're done with college and you're not living with your college friends anymore? How do you make friends? You know, you try to find some maybe at work, and I wasn't finding that for a long time. And I thought that was me. Maybe something's wrong with me, you know? And I think adopted people are very prone to that thinking. But I think also now looking back, I go, Oh, it was the environment I was in, too, where people were fried and they just wanted to go home and go on to the next thing until they had to come back the next day and put their work game face back on. I didn't understand that at the time, so it was like a rejection feeling even though it maybe wasn't. I think we're prone to thinking we're being rejected when we aren't, but it sure feels like it. You know, if you apply for jobs somewhere and you're lucky to get an interview after like 50 applications. And you get two or three interviews and you're like, Well, what's so wrong with me? You know, the odds are with 50 or 100 applications and all I get is three interviews.

You kidding me? Well, you know, the economy's bad, too. I mean it, times are what they are and then you get the interviews you get and then you hope you get the one job offer out of all that, you know? So it's very hard, I think, when you're, you know, applying and trying to go through that process and (literally) being accepted by other people. Again, authority figure people, all over again, and this time it's not like I'm hoping they'll pick me as a worker, is what you're going through, instead of as a kid. I think that's a hard thing for adopted people to be able to separate business from social. Business from just non-business.

Haley Radke: Well, and your personal worth as a human.

Paige Adams Strickland: Right. Right. It's already been messed with a little bit. And then you add this element on top, which all people go through, (unless you're maybe self-employed). But still sometimes self-employed people have to go out there and find clients, and still you have to deal with, “Does this client want me or do I have to go find some other client?” I think that just adds an extra level of complication, you know, for workers, for adopted people who are in the workforce, trying to make connections, meet people, network, be accepted, be hired somewhere because of your worthiness. Because it's a job, and money, and your life, and your independence, and your bills, and your everything.

Other than being adopted, is the other thing you define yourself as all hinges on whether somebody there in a suit, in an office is gonna accept you. So that's hard, I think. So, it's hard, anyway. I'm not saying it's not hard for other people, because it is. You know, I've seen what my own kids have gone through going to get jobs and things, but you know, when you're adopted, you add that layer to it of, Here I have to go through this again, of somebody thinking they want me. How can I convince them, am I good enough?

Yeah, and you know, my best advice would be: You do the best you can. You go to work every day, you do all the things you're supposed to do, and you just keep plugging along and have that determination. And reward yourself (if you get a chance, you know, buy something for yourself. Go out, do something for yourself on Friday or something, you know, to get yourself through that). To affirm to yourself sometimes that you don't get that affirmation from the employer or from the coworkers, and you know it has to come from within, that intrinsic thing. Reward yourself and take care of yourself, if you can't get it from the workplace. Even though you still have to go to work, just keep at it.

I work (again), multiple jobs, too, because I tutor, I teach fitness, I do other little things on the side like that. And so I know if one job, for some reason— And that's the other thing, we deal with the loss thing. If we lose a job, I think it hits us like a bus. You know, not just because of the money, but because it's a loss. It's a void in our lives and it's like, Here we go again. Crap. You know? And, and I can think of worse things to say, but we're gonna be on the air. Right? [they laugh] So, but yeah, fill in the blank with your own favorite word.

Haley Radke: Right. Well, thank you. I appreciate those thoughts.

Paige Adams Strickland: Sure.

Haley Radke: There's so many of us that are in the workforce and are just, that's sort of your life, and then adding on as an adopted person, the layer of complexity to that. That was really interesting. I really appreciated that perspective. Thank you.

Okay, so we mentioned right at the beginning that you and I met in Indiana, and so for recommended resources, let's move into that segment. You are actually presenting at the Indiana Adoptee Network Conference, which is coming up in April. So, it's April 20th and 21st, 2018.

Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about your session? And you're doing it with Lynn?

Paige Adams Strickland: I think I'm doing it with Lynn Grubb. So, I don't know if you've interviewed her before, possibly? Maybe?

Haley Radke: I haven't, but I talked to her extensively in Indiana last year.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, she and I are presenting and— it's funny the way I met her. I'd written a book. I googled and found Lost Daughters online, and I was looking for sources of people where I could promote my first book to. And somebody there at Lost Daughters said, “Well, talk to Lynn Grubb. She lives not in the same state as you. I'm gonna have her review your book.” Turns out Lynn lives maybe 55 miles away from me. It was like, Wow. It's like almost like we grew up in the same region together and everything and never knew one another. And then she got a copy of my book to review and that's how we met. And it was great.

Haley Radke: Hey, it's Haley butting in from the future. I know the recording gets a little sketchy right now, so I just wanna come in and make sure you have the exact details and dates here before Paige tells us about her specific session.

Again, it's Indiana Adoptee Network Conference. It's called Racing to Records, The Final Lap. It's going to be in Indianapolis, Indiana. That was hard to record. Just so you know, that's not my first time trying to say that. It's a Friday and Saturday, April 20th and 21st, 2018.

And in addition to Paige and Lynn's session, you can hear from past guests of Adoptees On, like Becky Drinnen, Shannon Peck, Ridghaus, and Anne Heffron. We'll all be presenting different workshops and a myriad of other guests. So go on over to their website, indianaadopteenetwork.org to check out all the details for registration, who's coming, who's gonna be there, where you need to book your hotel, all of that.

Okay. I wanna let Paige explain what her session is going to be with Lynn. And it's called, “I Have my OBC, Now What?”

Paige Adams Strickland: And, Lynn Grubb and I will be co-presenting on “You have your OBC, now what?” (your original birth certificate). We're going to talk about all the things that potentially could happen in the thought processes as an adoptee, you might go through. What to maybe think ahead about and anticipate before you contact people, what to say to people when you are contacting them, try to troubleshoot before you open a can of worms... You know? Because they could be good worms, they could be not good worms, but think it all through, is pretty much it.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Very good. And you have a lifetime of experience with reunions, so…

Paige Adams Strickland: Right. Yeah.

Haley Radke: You are an expert in that. Lynn as well.

Paige Adams Strickland: We both have gone through it and, yeah. Of course, we both went through it really before there was a lot of technology. And you had to find people the old school way, through phone calls, and public records, and courthouses, and things like that. And I mean, now what happens when you find somebody in 10 minutes because you found them on—you googled their name and found them on Facebook, you know, and…

Haley Radke: Like I did with my dad, yes.

Paige Adams Strickland: I couldn't imagine. I mean, yeah, if I hadn't found my sisters when I did, eventually we obviously would've found each other on Facebook by a certain point. Some people are open to that. My sisters knew I was out there. My sisters on my birth mother's side, they knew I was out there, so they were totally game for it.

So it would've been a, “Oh my God, there you are, oh my God, there you are… Oh pictures. Oh!,” you know. But then there are other people that would be. “Wait a minute. What? What my mom did, what my dad did what? Real what? You know, my grandparents never said a what?” It's a really fast shock, I would imagine, for people that find other people that fast or get found that fast.

Haley Radke: Yeah. A lot to navigate. That's, yeah... Very complicated.

Also, you have written a couple of memoirs, isn't that right? Can you tell us about…?

Paige Adams Strickland: I have, yes.

Haley Radke: Tell us about your books.

Paige Adams Strickland: The first one I wrote was called Akin to the Truth. My husband thought up the name, so I've gotta give him credit for that. So, Akin to the Truth.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yes. And we're punny people. We like little word play, things like that if we can get away with it. And it was about growing up as an adopted person and what that felt like as a kid and a teenager. And you know, of course there's sometimes when you don't think about it, and times when you think about it all the time. And you know, it was how I dealt with it. And then going through the search process and getting my birth certificate and what that was like, and finding my original family.

The second book is a sequel to that. It's called After the Truth, because it's after I found people, and after I knew a lot of what the truth was about what happened to me, and what happened to my family, what it's like to be in reunion (but as a parent, as a spouse, as a friend, as a worker, you know what that was like). You know, I'd go to my job, but then I'd had this “secret life" thing going on. What it was like, just…yeah.

As a mom with my kids, with my birth father–He was in my life. Then he exited my life and then he re-entered my life. And my kids as tween-aged kids got to experience that “re-reunion” with me. And so they met cousins for the very first time. And so it was really cool for them, too. And I raised them telling them everything that was going on from the get go (as much as I could, you know), so that they'd be prepared. Because I was hoping for the day when he'd come back around.

Haley Radke: The less surprises, right?

Paige Adams Strickland: Right. Yeah. Because who's gonna pick up the phone when you get that phone call?

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Paige Adams Strickland: You know, and watch it be a 10-year-old, you know, and not you. So I wanted my kids to be prepared for what might happen someday and what to do if you got a phone call like that. Or you have these “mystery people” out there somewhere. [They laugh.]

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness.

So, okay, well, so how can we find them?

Paige Adams Strickland: They're on Amazon.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Paige Adams Strickland: So yeah, that's the easiest answer is just to say on Amazon. Okay. Yeah, I keep books in the back of my car, but unless you know me in person, it's really hard to hook up with me and just buy a book out of the back of my car.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, that’s amazing.

Paige Adams Strickland: They’re on Amazon, on Kindle and print. You can get 'em that way, so…

Haley Radke: Okay, cool. Yeah. Well, I'll link to them in the show notes as well.

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah. Okay. And I will probably have some at the conference too, so…

Haley Radke: So you can get an autographed copy.

Paige Adams Strickland: Perfect. I'll sign them there.

Haley Radke: Yes, yes, yes. Okay.

Paige, what did you want to recommend to us today?

Paige Adams Strickland: Yeah, I recommend watching This is Us if you want to see a realistic portrayal of what an adopted person is like, and what they go through (especially in adulthood). They do show, because the show is done in flashbacks. Sometimes you see what the adopted person may have gone through in their childhood. But the adulthood portrayal is really spot on. I can tell you that. I know there's some people that still don't like it, because they don't think it's real enough. I mean, it is what it is. It's TV, but it's so well done and it's so– I love that show. I really do. And I love everything about it, not just the adoption story.

I think it's just so well done in general, you know, there are many aspects to it that–the whole thing, the whole family dynamic story of the entire thing. But I think the adoption in that story has been portrayed as realistically as it gets for a TV show.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. And can you just tell us the thing you emailed me about Randall in the workplace?

Paige Adams Strickland: He's kind of like a perfectionist guy, right? Wanting everything to go really well and not have–He’s a character. Again, it's not a real person, but he's a character wanting acceptance so bad and wanting approval so bad, and he's a super achiever in that kind of a way. I think that fits really well with (a lot of times) the adoptee personality, even if you're not in a job where you're making super mega bucks. But whatever it is you do, you want to be accepted and you want things to go well, and if things go wrong, you feel like it's because of you for some reason. And the character Randall plays–that's it. I mean, he has got it nailed.

Haley Radke: I am not caught up. I watched almost all of Season One and there were a couple things that just made me really emotional and I was like, I don't know if I can handle it. So I paused for a bit, but I do intend to go back and, and watch it as it goes on.

But, well, thank you so much for talking with me today, Paige. And can you tell us how can we connect with you online?

Paige Adams Strickland: I am mostly on Facebook. That's probably my biggest hangout of all of them. I'll be under Paige L. Adams Strickland. I do have a blog. It's on WordPress. It'll be under stricklandp.wordpress.com. That would be the way to find me there. It'll say Akin to the Truth. If you see big old sunflowers, then you know you hit the right button.

Haley Radke: Oh, perfect. Thank you. Thanks for sharing your story with us, and thanks for navigating this sort of tricky topic.

Paige Adams Strickland: Thank you, Haley.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. We're having a meet up. I'm so excited. I am coming to San Francisco with my husband in May, and so we have added one extra day onto our vacation so we can do an Adoptees On Listener Meet Up. I also asked Anne Heffron if she would teach her Write or Die class to me and to you, and she said yes. So on Sunday, May 20th, from 2-5, you have the opportunity to take Write or Die from Anne Heffron in downtown San Francisco. And following that, from 6-8, we are going do a Listener Meet Up. So that's going to be just hanging out, chatting together. So if you are interested in connecting in real life with other Adoptees On listeners, please—I would love it if you would come.

So if you'd like to find out more details, you can go to adopteeson.com/newsletter, and sign up for the newsletter. I'll be sending out details right away with that info. And also on our Facebook page, there's an Events tab, so you can find out how to register for Anne’s class. If you RSVP there, then I can let you know the location of the Meet Up. And of course, both of those will be in downtown San Francisco and location TBD (when I have a better idea of how many of you there's going to be). So please come. Please come. I'd love to meet you in person and there's already a few of you signed up, so I'm so pumped. I love it.

Speaking of listeners, you're so awesome. You're so awesome. Did you know this show is totally listener supported, and it's because of you that I'm able to do this weekly? And I literally couldn't do it without your help. Whether you choose to donate monthly or maybe do a one-time donation, you are saying you believe this show is a valuable resource for adoptees. That you want it to continue, and you are paying it forward to other adoptees who will find the show in the future and get connected into community. So important. If you'd like to stand with me, with other adoptees and support the show, head over to adopteeson.com/partner and all the details are there. Thank you. Thank you so much for your generosity. I sincerely appreciate it.

I've been thinking a lot about the conversation I had with Paige and at the very end when she was describing her session that she's gonna be giving in Indiana and she talked a little bit about finding your biological family in this new digital age. And so next week, we are literally talking about that. How awesome—digital relationships. I'm interviewing someone who has done thesis work and a qualitative study of various adoptees who have searched and found their biological family through social media. And so we talk about that and it's so interesting.

So I hope that you are subscribed to the show, so you won't miss that episode. You can find the show in any podcast app that you love, and I'd love to have you as a subscriber. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

60 April: I've Claimed It

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/60

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 4, Episode 2, April. I'm your host Haley Radke. Today I want to invite you into a discussion about relationships with ourselves through the lens of identity and race. April Dinwoodie shares her journey with us of growing up brown in a white family, navigating relationships with her adoptive family, and how she has come to claim her own identity.

We also touch on the recent closure of the Donaldson Adoption Institute and what April sees as the way forward in the advocacy movement. We wrap up with recommended resources and, as always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.

And, if [00:01:00] you're interested in hearing about a way to meet up with other Adoptees On listeners, stick around till the end of the show for a fun announcement. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, April Dinwoodie. Welcome, April.

April Dinwoodie: Thank you. It's so good to be here, Haley. Thank you.

Haley Radke: And I love your podcast. We'll get to that later, but a fellow podcaster, so fun to have that on the show. You, too, know the power of podcasting and how it can bring us together, so I'm so, so glad to talk to you. I'd love it if you start the way we usually do here. And would you share your story with us?

April Dinwoodie: Yeah, it'd be my honor, and thank you for creating space for all of us and it's definitely been a medium that I've learned to really appreciate in many ways. So I'm grateful for it.

So, it's one of those things where [00:02:00] I always knew I was adopted, right? My family's white and I'm brown, so I don't remember a time when my parents sat me down and said, okay, April, this is, uh, this is something we need to tell you. I just always knew, not in a negative or a positive way, just that that information, on its own, was just basic, real information. Like I was adopted.

What came with that were many layers of search for identity and belonging and things that I'm now totally plugged into and know I can almost pinpoint exactly when some of those moments were happening in my younger years that I couldn't make sense of then.

So, you know, my family is one that's a typical New England family. Born and raised in New England for several generations and my parents met in 4-H, so they were really small and then were high school sweethearts and married right out of college. Excuse me, out of high school and [00:03:00] started, you know, took some space and time actually, not because they wanted it, but because of the universe and biology, it took a little while for them to get pregnant with their first child, my oldest brother.

Once they had my older brother, they had my younger, older brother 11 months later. And then three years later they had my sister. So when I hear my parents talk about that time in their life, it was just a pretty basic decision. Like, you know, we wanted another child. Ideally a girl. So my sister could have a sister.

And in that time they knew some folks who had adopted. It was just not a thing, right? Not a lot of people were doing it, but they thought, hmm, all right. Like, it might be a way to, you know, sort of round out our family, so to speak. And there you have it.

They kind of went about the process [00:04:00] and went to a foster-to-adopt agency, a children's friend and service in Rhode Island. And, you know, I tell the story when my parents got the call. They said, we have a girl. She may be biracial. Right? And they really, you know, didn't think too much about that, right? There wasn't a point in time where they, I think, really mulled over it too, too much.

And so the wheels were spinning at that point. I had already been in foster care for about seven months before I was placed with my adoptive family. So I spent a little bit of time in foster care and very little time in the hospital, from what I can tell with my birth mother, Helen. You know, this was the way that my family decided to expand their family, and they really didn't give race a whole lot of a consideration. And, you know, it became and has become for me a central theme in my identity, like, you know, figuring that stuff out.

So, I thought everybody had a brown kid at home until I went to kindergarten [00:05:00] and I was looking at brown kids and there weren't brown kids. I was like, oh, maybe they come on another day. And I was like, oh wait, it's been like a week or a month or I don't know how long, but there aren't that many brown kids. Like, okay, so that's kind of weird.

My family was just so kind of tight that I just thought my family was like everybody's family until it wasn't, you know. It was just one of those things and then it still was just my family, until it wasn't. Like when someone would make reference to me.

And it happened more often than I care to really admit, but people used to think I was a Fresh Air kid, which, for people who don't know, the Fresh Air Fund is a program where inner-city kids, usually black or brown, go to the suburbs, usually white and spend the summer. So that had happened to me and, and I'm like, fresh air. Of course. Yeah. I love fresh air. It's the best.

Because people would say, is she a Fresh Air kid? How nice. And as I get older and move to New York, I was like, hmm, I get what they were talking about there. [00:06:00] So, and those moments, too, are just kind of like, well, I never really remembered exactly what someone said, but I remembered how exactly I felt. I remember sort of someone tightening up and tensing up or kind of feeling uncomfortable and kind of looking up and going, like, why, why is this happening right now?

Or people trying to touch my hair, you know? I mean it's so interesting. It's like this intersection of everything was normal and everything was so not normal. That the abnormal sort of became normal, and you kind of tackled what you could with what you had.

As I've grown a little bit more tuned into this stuff and smarter about what I need in terms of my healthy identity, I tend to ask for more. And don't always get it from my family. I don't always get it, but I have also come to realize that they're giving me what they can. And that foundation of love really is above and beyond any bits of cultural and racial identity that they could have given me. So it's a kind of a delicate balance, right? [00:07:00]

It's a delicate balance because I talk to families all the time, like, oh, you really have to do better. And at the same time, I kind of give my parents a break. So it's a delicate balance, you know?

Haley Radke: Well, I can't imagine. I mean, I get that delicate balance. And what I'm thinking back to is the episode of your podcast where you interviewed your father. And I don't really remember exactly what question you asked him, but I remember when he answered, I sort of gasped because I was like, wait, we're not supposed to be colorblind. And his answer sort of indicated that we don't really see racial differences.

I don't know. That sort of seemed like what he was saying and I was so curious how that made you feel, because you did kind of explain to him like, Well, we don't really do that anymore, dad, kind of thing. [00:08:00] Um, it was much more eloquent than that.

April Dinwoodie: I don't know. Not so sure. I didn't feel eloquent in the moment. It felt two things. I felt, one, there were a couple times in those podcasts, if I'm completely honest, where I was like, okay, that's gonna get edited. And I have the benefit and blessing to work with an amazing producer who is a dear friend of mine, a long-time friend, and he's like, Nope, not gonna happen.

Like, you invite people to the table, you've got to let them have their experiences. And that's, again, why it's so instructive to prep for those conversations and have those conversations. But, man, is it really hard because what you realize is that it isn't just about you, it isn't all about you.

Other people have experiences and sort of juxtaposed with what my father was saying about this idea, this quite well-intended, I think, but really Ill-informed on some level idea of being colorblind is what I learned [00:09:00] about his upbringing that I didn't know before. And the things I know about his upbringing are not easy things.

There was a lot of disconnect in his nuclear family in terms of relationship and especially to his parents. That got really challenging in my preteen years into my teens and early adulthood. So, you know, there's this thing where, yeah, I kind of was like, yeah, that's not how it works really.

But there was also this really beautiful place of love and understanding and forgiveness that I was able to, I think, put forth, and I think he as well. But there's going to be a space where that's just not his experience. I mean, the closest thing that I can sort of come to is the period of time, and this is me making sense of it. [00:10:00]

I don't know that my parents would actually agree with this, but this is how I see it when they were first married and didn't get pregnant for several years. I think there was a feeling of being “less than,” feeling outside of the group and just feeling like what's wrong with me?

And, you know, there's a thread of that in being a minority, right? There's something that can be looked at in a way to say, okay, well that's kind of how sometimes it can feel and to be a person of color in a white environment or just to be brown in the world, period.

So, I try to find those threads and, then also, the biggest question of all is, how am I gonna take a man who is in his seventies who has never really had to be outside of his place in the world, [00:11:00] which is white and privileged, where is he to find these tools? There's also reality, right? And at some point you kind of stop fighting against that in a way, at least I do from a certain perspective because there's so much that I do get.

So I would say it's actually a tight rope walk versus delicate balance, right? But it's one that I'm willing to walk, you know, one that I wanna walk and one I wanna keep trying to figure out how to manage because my survival depends on it. Like my healthy identity today depends on how I process that and how much I push and how hard and what type of risks I'm willing to take.

Haley Radke: Can you go back to that idea of white privilege? So I'm not transracially adopted, I don't have that experience, but what I've heard from some other adoptees is that, [00:12:00] growing up they are a different color than their white parents but when they're with their white family, they are treated as though they are white.

And then if they're apart from them or once they become an adult, then people just see skin color and they're treated differently. You alluded to that a little bit with your childhood and being the Fresh Air kid, but can you speak to that a little bit more?

April Dinwoodie: So there was a sense of belonging that I found and I felt like people were quite proud of themselves when they did welcome me. It's very interesting, right? I could see now when I look back, there was a thing where people felt good about welcoming me and that that could have had to do with the type of person I was, too. And I'm sure it did have something to do with that, but I also think there was this like, oh wow, like, this is really cool.

[00:13:00] You know, like there was this sort of novelty to it, especially in my town. But separate and apart from them, for sure, there was the belief that, especially people who, which was rare, but it did happen in our small town that didn't know me and didn't really get the joke that, oh, wait a second, she does belong in this family, or she does belong here.

And there were many different ways, I think, of not believing that I really did have a family here. You know, there were a couple kids at school who were like, no way, that can't be true. And down to what's so important to note here is that, and I didn't realize this until my universe expanded and I met other transracially adopted people, mostly men who had darker skin than I did.

Right? Clearly, my experience growing up where I grew up would have been very different if I was a dark-skinned black boy. [00:14:00] While things did shift for me, going from the cute little girl with the fuzzy hair to like the sort of awkward teen to the high-schooler who was popular and had friends, but you know, had a hard time, really, dating and things of that nature.

Yes, there were racial slurs and all of these things that happened, but I think it paled in comparison to having my light skin and my sort of in-between hair that really kind of created definitely a safety net in a way for me that didn't exist, wouldn't have existed had I been a dark-skinned black boy.

And I recognize that full on eyes wide open. And I have no [00:15:00] issue talking about this. There's a certain level of privilege in my family and being white and from New England and all that, but then there's like the layers of privilege that come with skin tone. And good hair. You know? I mean, it's gotten good. It hasn't always been good. I'm gonna be honest.

Haley Radke: You know, I'm laughing, I just listened to your most recent episode of your podcast, so people will have to go and listen to that to hear the inside joke about an ex-boyfriend commenting on your hair.

April Dinwoodie: Mm. We've gone there. It's been a long road, but we've gotten there.

Haley Radke: Well, that's another thing I see in adoptive parent groups more recently, just knowing how to do that when it's transracial and it's different and it's stuff that probably they don't think of when they're setting out to adopt, I guess. Um, anyway, I don't want to speak for adoptive parents.

April Dinwoodie: [00:16:00] Well, I can speak for some just because I work with a lot of white transracial parents who are adopting transracially and I think they're thinking about it more than ever before out of sheer urgency. Right? And my workshop has gone from 20 years ago being what my white parents didn't know and why it turned out okay anyway to the urgency of seeing color and adoption in foster care. Like a dramatic shift.

Now the content's the same, you know, to a point. But there's a lot more real talk and it's not as cute and cuddly, it wasn't even cute and cuddly when it was, it was just a catchy title. But at the end of the day, the spirit and the tenor and the tone of these conversations has shifted, and I think it's important to acknowledge that because I feel like physical and emotional safety today, creating that for kids of color regardless of whether they're being adopted [00:17:00] by white parents or not is something that, um.

Funny, I was invited to go back to my hometown and speak to our local women's group that's very politically engaged and the whole idea was that we would talk about tough conversations and race class and culture differences. And I just basically gave the same talk I would give to parents who were adopting potentially black and brown kids and they were white, because I feel like everything I talk about is like what everybody needs to be doing anyway.

It's kind of interesting that it comes to that. So. We were saying this so clearly from that point of view, but I feel like all the content in there is like really for everybody.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's right. And your podcast, I know we'll talk about it again later, but you just changed your tagline to “What Adoption can Teach the World” and I think there's a piece of that thread there. [00:18:00]

Okay. Can you talk a little bit about going into your adult years and what is it like to understand that you're biracial? And, please correct me if I am misspeaking, I want to be really sensitive and I feel like I don't know all the right lingo. So can you speak to that a little bit? Finding out that you are biracial, if you had a conversation ever with your parents about that and just living in this world that way?

April Dinwoodie: There was a sense that from the non-identifying information that I received during the early stages of my search, it was clear that my birth mother was white and therefore based on the obviousness of my genetics and how I looked, I clearly had a dad that was a person of color.

So I just always believed, and I used to tell [00:19:00] people, that Harry Belafonte and Elizabeth Montgomery from Bewitched were my parents and they were too busy in Hollywood to take care of me so that's why I wound up in, I mean, that all made sense to me at that point.

And it was a great story to tell. Of course, the reality of life took its course. And I really kind of was settled into the fact that, above all, I started saying that I was a person of color, like, a long time ago. If someone pressed me, I would say, well, yeah, I'm biracial, but it's kind of obvious, I'm still brown.

Like, there's nothing that can be taken away from that. So it's kind of like that is true, this idea of being multiracial or biracial, but at the same time I'm brown, period, the end. I'm not white. [00:20:00] And so I think that isn't a conversation I've necessarily had with my family, but I feel like I've claimed it in other ways.

Moving to Harlem, you know, identifying with different pieces of entertainment and entertainers and music and things like that. And now my parents weren't like just, you know, sitting, listening to, I mean, certainly we did listen to John Denver and we listened to Fleetwood Mac and all of this, but there was also plenty of Nat King Cole in the house and Stevie Wonder.

My family is pretty open and almost like the non-culture family. Like there's not one culture that we just wildly celebrate. It's kind of like we're all over the map, which is partly why I feel like there was a lot of space for me.

But at the same time, you know, I just kind of went after it, you know, I did my own kind of personal investigation and finding my space. [00:21:00] Would I have liked more help and guidance with that? Absolutely. Was it something my parents were up for? No, I mean, just, no. They were trying to raise a family and survive.

I mean, I didn't really see that and it doesn't, you know, again, it doesn't make them bad parents. It's just a reality that I now can understand and appreciate it on some level. It doesn't make it any less easy to think about the times when I was truly embarrassed about looking the way I did and my hair being the way it was. It doesn't take any of that away.

But it sort of calibrates it to some degree that allows me to kind of use my experiences to help share with other people that might be interested. So, I mean, today it's different. I mean, my mom says this a lot. She's like, I just thought, gosh, when we adopted you, it wasn't symbolic of racial justice or equality or anything like that.

[00:22:00] That wasn't the point. But her idea was that things were moving in a different direction. And as we sit where we are in 2018, it doesn't feel like that's the case, right? So it feels like actually harder to be adopting a kid transracially than it was when I was being adopted. There's just a lot more to contend with and there's a lot more expectation. Right?

There's just a lot more out there. I mean, we're, we're talking right now. This didn't exist. No one was having this kind of conversation. So a parent now, they can run, but they can't hide. Right? Like, this is coming for you. All this stuff's coming for you. The adoption stuff, the racial identity stuff, the relationship stuff, the inequities of class, the, some call and they wouldn't be wrong, a marketplace of adoption. So this is not swept under the rug anymore.

[00:23:00] We have to deal with it. And a lot of times, I see it happening and it's so interesting. Like I see people like us having conversations and kind of putting it out there. But I also see young people. I may go into schools and have my little affinity groups with young people, and man, they are not messing around.

So we're pushing up big time and it's not just us. It's the next, the future generations that are turned on and plugged into this and they're saying, hey, mom and dad, what about that birth parent, what about my birth mom? Is that her name? What was her name and where is she?

Like it's happening. Like there's just no two ways about it. So it's a lot harder than it was, I think, when I was being adopted.

Haley Radke: Did you ever have any pushback from anyone even in your extended family when you were sort [00:24:00] of more interested in exploring this and, like you said, you moved to Harlem and were more interested in exploring these other aspects of yourself?

April Dinwoodie: No, um, never that, I mean, uh, no. You know, I remember the first apartment I lived in Harlem, and it was not a super safe spot. But my family just came, like, we're coming, you know, and my nieces and nephews, they let my nieces and nephews come without them.

Like I remember taking my nieces to the African hair braiding spot and they were the only two white girls in there. And I think they trusted me enough and they loved me enough and wanted to be in that space. There was never any pushback there. Where the pushback has come has been, you know, I think there's been an awakening of sorts for me in terms of feeling confident [00:25:00] to vocalize certain things or to say, Hey, yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

And I think with all of the swirl of the NFL Colin Kaepernick taking a knee. I mean, there have been conflicts around that. And, you know, the way that I think we've decided to deal with that is to sort of not deal with it, right? Because I read this article, I think it was in Modern Love, it was a while ago, and it was this gentleman who had found his biological sister and she lived in Florida.

He lived in the north, and they were very politically opposed. And he basically was like, I just found her. There's just no way. I don't care if she's the worst diehard Republican ever. There's no way I'm giving up that love. So I find myself in an interesting sort of predicament on some level.

One, it's not that dramatic that there is massive conflict and we can't be in the same room together. It's not that at all. Just a difference of an understanding of something that's [00:26:00] happening that we choose not to talk about anymore, because it just isn't a healthy or helpful dialogue to have.

So I find that I have to create space for that kind of conversation elsewhere, and I do. It doesn't mean that it feels good to not be able to have it in the space where I really should be able to be exactly 100% myself. But you know what, this happens across any type of family structure and system.

So is it more pronounced in families formed and expanded by adoption where there's differences of race and other things? Sure. But I don't think it's unlike other situations where we gotta put plastic forks and knives around the Thanksgiving Day table because you know it's gonna get heated.

I mean, I think that's a baseline right now. And I feel like we've at least figured out how to see past it, through it. And I have, you know, those other conversations [00:27:00] elsewhere and I've created that space that I've had to, and I don't have a choice.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I think that'll be really helpful for people to hear, you know, that they're not alone in that. It's kind of this thing where it's so important, you really do feel like it's necessary to talk about, but at what cost?

April Dinwoodie: I mean, this is really the real kicker, right? It's a real challenge. It's like, how do you make sure that you are able to live your true self and identity and you know there are risks involved, right? Again, I believe that's true throughout the entire spectrum of the family experience.

I just think this is why this idea of adoption teaching the world is kind of the empowered place I've arrived at [00:28:00] because I don't know any people that are better equipped than adopted people and people who are in the extended family of adoption. Birth parents, adoptive parents, siblings, the whole matrix. There are tons of challenges, but there's an awful lot of solid reflection, real tough working and deconstructing of identity and family and all of that.

And I think it's useful, and I can say that now in my forties and feeling pretty settled, but I just want our experiences to be instructive for not just other people who may share the experience, but for other people who have no idea about this experience, but have felt outta place in their family or, you know, there was a disconnect, there was a divorce or remarriage.

I mean, [00:29:00] my parents split up when I was in second grade and we didn't see my grandparents again for many, many years. So these separations and these really hard family situations are just not unique to adoption. However, we know from research and lived experience today that adoption is kind of the thing that we know more about, right?

And why not use that information and our experiences to, one, heal ourselves and be whole and be as engaged and plugged in as we can be. And then, take a stand and be empowered and be like, I know something you don't know, or I know something and I can help you maybe. Or at least I can validate your feelings of belonging or not feeling like you belong or identity.

I don't know, it's just time to sort of flip it a little bit, you know. That flip-the-script thing has been around and it's just a beautiful thing and it's ushered in, I think, some of these empowered feelings, but I think it's all going to the next level.

Haley Radke: [00:30:00] I love that that sense of empowerment coming from that place is so much more effective than some of what I see is people who are powered by rage or hurt, you know?

April Dinwoodie: Yeah, that's real.

Haley Radke: It is. That fuel only lasts for so long and it's only one direction. I think there's a lot of wisdom to what you're saying there.

April Dinwoodie: When I look at my experiences, the challenges I've had just sort of pale in comparison to some of the perspectives I have gotten from the people I'm close to. Either young people who have aged out, had adoptions disrupted, have abuse, neglect, trauma that is unimaginable to adopted people that I know that were adopted at birth and had trauma. That's unspeakable all.

[00:31:00] I mean, there’s all this perspective that happens, but I just think I had a pretty damn lovely life growing up, right? We didn't have a lot, but we had this container of love and real openness. And just this welcoming sense of my family is very unique and it's amazing. And anybody who knows my family who has spent time in Rhode Island would vouch for that, right?

If I had imagined. I did fine in school. I wasn't a super great student, but I wasn't a bad student and I made it through college. I did well, and I've had a fair amount of personal professional success, whatever you wanna say. But I just think like, gosh, what if I had sort of gotten those additional layers of what I needed for my healthy identity? Or what if I didn't get rejected the second time by my birth mother? [00:32:00]

So the whole idea of even talking, saying those things at the risk of making my family feel like they weren't enough, which they were, I think, okay, parents today, like double, triple down. What makes you uncomfortable? Go deeper with that. Go figure out what happened in your childhood that makes it impossible for you to go there with your kid. Just go deeper. Because if you go deeper, you are like what you can present as a pathway for your kid is, like, unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

Haley Radke: That is so true. And I have a lot of, you probably get this quite a bit too, I have a lot of adoptive parents emailing me, asking for advice, and the thing I really want to say to most of them, I can't because it sounds snippy, but it's: Work on your own stuff first.

April Dinwoodie: [00:33:00] Look, it's not snippy. I go to a lot of conferences, right? And I see a lot of amazing professionals that stand up often. And it's kind of the same stuff. Now, this is no knock against some of the people I've seen and some of the amazing practitioners out there, and professionals love, love, love, right?

But it's oftentimes like the adults putting upon a young person, how are we going to help them with their healthy identity development? And not once do I hear, I mean, not once yet. I'm sure it has happened and maybe I missed it. I doubt it. But a parent going, like, I had to work on myself first in my trauma, before I could help my kid with their trauma.

Like it's something that we place on the shoulders of children as if it's something for them to figure out versus us guiding them. And again, there's amazing practitioners out there, but it's like the spirit of how it's presented in frame sometimes is kind of like nothing to see here. We gotta just take care of this kid.

[00:34:00] And the truth is, you gotta take care of yourself. Your little self, your big self, your middle-sized self, your grown self. And you gotta keep working at that in order to be helpful to your kid. And, again, just take this with a grain of salt from the woman who doesn't have any kids, right?

So it's all well and good, but I do believe that, and that's maybe why I haven't had kids at this point, I don't know, or one of the reasons, there are probably many, but you know, that it's such a serious and such a monumental idea that I don't think anybody should even consider it without, like, I think there should be a home study for anybody who's gonna have a kid biologically or not. I just think there should be, period. A really good one, like the best home study ever.

That's really hard. And it's not about resources, it's about, you know, identity and spirit and talking with your partner about how you'll discipline, you know, like all [00:35:00] these things. I mean, it kind of feels like a little bit of utopia or like I'm wishing for things that are just out of touch.

I don't know, like in looking at where kids have really thrived that I've known and where kids are struggling, it would've been a really big deal if the parents of these kids had had a lot more sort of preparation and thought, adopted or not.

Haley Radke: Yep. I am a mom to two small boys and I think, how did this happen? And I mean, I know how it happened, but I'm not qualified for this. The only adoptee issues they are gonna have are the ones I pass on because of me and my stuff, which I'm always working on. So, I don't know if you're gonna have an answer for this, but would you advise white parents to adopt transracially? [00:36:00]

April Dinwoodie: So I've seen a lot of examples of parents who really get it and are determined to do everything in their power. One, like the beautiful thing is admitting that they're just never gonna truly get it if they're not a person of color, if they've never been adopted. I mean, let's add in that too.

If you don't have the experience of being adopted, it's really hard for you to know what that's like. So I think we have to sort of start there. I don't think there's ever gonna be a really seamless way to sort of bring that experience to life for someone who just doesn't have that experience. I mean, that could be anything, right?

[00:37:00] So that's the first thing. But the most badass parents I know are first admitting that. No, first, full stop. They're like I get that I'm not gonna get it, right? But that doesn't mean I'm not gonna do everything in my power to get it.

It doesn't mean I'm not gonna pipe up when someone in my workplace says something inappropriate. It's not like it's gonna stop me from marching into the school and making sure that my kid isn't being inappropriately disciplined. There's like a kind of stand-up parent and sets of parents that I know that stop at nothing to make sure that their kid is physically and emotionally safe.

So I've seen it work and I'm witnessing it work, and certainly I feel like I'm a product of parents where it worked, right? Like, I have no psychotic issues. I'm walking the earth every day and I'm doing good in the world. There’s still pain and hurt to be healed, but they did a damn good job with the resources they had. So I don't believe in this idea of it not happening. [00:38:00]

I do believe in, first and foremost, making sure that, one, family of origin is explored to the nth-degree to make sure a child can stay within their family of origin. That's just in any given situation. I think especially so when there's race and culture, elements to be considered. But as we all know, I also feel like an adoption or a permanent situation for a child or person should not be impeded on the basis of any type of qualifier, right?

If there is willing, appropriate family based on a home study and based on all the legal constructs that exist, some are more loose than others, when you get into private adoption. But I would just say that if we are not being extra, extra mindful and challenging every possible nook and cranny of that experience.

[00:39:00] Like, I hear all the time, oh, well, you know, we'll do all this stuff. We'll go to this and we'll go to that. And I said, I think you need to make sure that you actually don't let the first time you hear the N-word be when your kid comes home from school.

Like, you gotta read some books, you gotta watch some historic programming. You've gotta have black friends. Somebody asked me, oh, how will I learn how to do my kid’s hair? I'm like, well, ask your black friends. They're like, uh, we don't have black friends. Well, there's your first problem.

So, you know, there's a continuum of like plugged-in parents. There are ones that really wanna be plugged in but are clueless, and you gotta take them by the hand. And there are some that, quite frankly, just don't feel like it's an issue at all and are putting their kids in danger.

I mean, so across the board, all these things are at play, and professionals are really the ones in charge right now of ensuring that these things don't go under, under-explored, under-appreciated, under-discussed. [00:40:00] The professionals are in charge of that.

Haley Radke: That's a pretty good answer. All right. Okay. Let's shift. You recently had a change. I saw an announcement in January that the Donaldson Institute was coming to a close. So you were the chief executive there. Can you speak a little bit about what's happened? And, you know, what I saw on Facebook was a lot of grief. People were very, very sad that Donaldson was closing.

April Dinwoodie: Mm-hmm, there was definitely a lot of grief. I mean, look, it's definitely been a tough year. Plus it hasn't been an easy time all the way through. I mean I've enjoyed the work; I've learned so much. I've been so inspired, empowered. [00:41:00] I've also felt like I got my butt kicked more than once.

And I underestimated, really, the challenge of being in this work 24/7. I mean, when I was in corporate, I could take a day off from being adopted. When I was working at Donaldson, I couldn't, and that I underestimated all that.

And plus I underestimated the lack of solidarity and community that existed in our space. I didn't expect that even though I'd been doing conferences and work in this space for a long time before taking the position, it was really kind of shocking to me. And it still does shock me when there's all of that kind of like real swirl of not so nice stuff that happens as we've all seen and experienced.

Sometimes things just run their course. I mean, of course, I feel there were times where I'm like, oh my gosh, I let everybody down. I mean, look, there's a board of directors, there's an executive director, chief executive, and there are donors, and this is all everybody's, these nonprofits are everybody's, right? They're not just, they don't belong to one person. [00:42:00]

I think it becomes that, and I think the Institute had become that over time. It felt as though it was one person, but it was really a collective, and I just feel like what people will never know. They'll know some of the things you can look at. You can look at financials, everything's an open book in the land of nonprofit. You can look at our track record and the leadership that came before me and my leadership to say that good work has been done.

But what people won't see are some of the shifts, the personal shifts and the relationships that have been built over time that I honor and their work will continue. You know, it was really important to me to have the work archived and it will be archived and it will be accessible.

First of all, I'm with you, I'm with everybody who feels badly, you know, and those who are angry. I mean, there's all kinds of emotion attached to this because I do feel like it was an organization that really needed to be [00:43:00], but like there's only so much we can do to sort of move things in a forward direction from a financial standpoint. You know, that's just the bottom line.

And we needed a lot more robust fundraising. We needed just more engagement overall. I think there was a misconception about the Institute for a long time that we just had like a big pile of cash and we just really never did. I mean, there was definitely funding there, but we were not an endowed organization and we relied heavily on donations and our one fundraiser a year.

So there's a lot of complexity to it. I did my best to lead, you know, with grace and integrity and the honor of what I think the community needed, but at the same time, there were changes that needed to happen and there was a vision that was yet to be realized. And, you know, there was a time that came where it just wasn't sustainable anymore. [00:44:44]

And, again, I think the thing that I am most proud of, the thing that people won't ever see, are some of the massive shifts that I've seen people connected to this Institute make on behalf of themselves, their family. And those relationships will endure, you know, well beyond, the Institute, and the work will be there too.

So, I do appreciate everybody's good wishes. And for those who can even identify a little bit, who've done this work, it's so emotional, right? There's such a passion for it. There's such a gravitational pull to doing this work that, when it was ending, it was like, oh my gosh, I can't even believe it.

But at the same time, oddly hopeful because maybe there's a new direction, a new path for things to take and maybe one that was necessary.

Haley Radke: [00:45:00] So that's my next question for you, actually. April, before we do recommended resources, last question. What do you see going forward in the advocacy for adopted people? Really specifically, that's my audience. What do you see for the future, for yourself and for the adoptee movement?

April Dinwoodie: There's been such an energy and a passion from the community of adopted people to make change and to have the voices being heard. I mean, it's just been remarkable to see all of that kind of taking shape. You know, what I realize is that there really have to be more adopted people in positions of leadership. And I would say a lot of that has to do with politics and policy.

And I think there was a point in time where I really questioned whether I should go from for-profit to non-profit. And one of the things that I do realize is that having a position of power in a corporation is that where there's a lot of money and power, [00:46:00] there is influence in that. And so I want adopted people to know that there's a place for them, you know, across the continuum of professional and volunteer and advocacy space.

But, just as the same way I feel about women and people of color, I think adopted people, as a group and as a people to be seen, need to really be in positions of power and influence and then use those positions of power and influence to further what we need as a community, but also, again, for a larger idea of what families really need and what children need and building healthy identity. Does that make sense?

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. We are gonna move to recommended resources, and I had to laugh because we're gonna recommend the same thing and that's okay. It's totally fine because this is a must listen. [00:47:00] April's podcast is called, Born in June, Raised in April, and I have recommended it on the show before.

I wanna hear from you what your great desire for your show was when you created it, and can you tell us a little bit about what you sort of started doing and the shift that you've made recently? So, I'd love for you to just explore that a little bit.

April Dinwoodie: Sure. Well, it sort of wasn't my idea actually. I had been doing a lot of writing and I had come to claim this idea of my birth name being June, which I found out through lots of different layers of my search, and my adoptive parents naming me April, both giving me the name Elizabeth, and being born in October.

So this idea of adoption throughout the year kind of inspired me to think more about what happens in the course of a year, month by month. [00:48:00] that is instructive and maybe even interesting or less explored areas of adoption.

For me, it was kind of like when my friend Josh was like, hey, let's do a podcast. Actually, no. It was actually my biological cousin who is the one who had the idea for the podcast. I have to give her credit for that. And she said, you really should do a podcast. It could be a thing for you. It'd really be great.

And then of course I talked to my friend Josh, and he was like, I'm in, let's do it. And so, all that to say that people outside of adoption kind of look at you and go, adoption? What? I don't know. Who cares? That doesn't impact me.

But, you know, family relationships, identity, the struggle for belonging. This idea of health and imperfect parenting and all these things are something everybody can identify with. In a way, the calendar was so inspiring to me because if we don't celebrate these things or we don't even acknowledge them, you kind of know they're happening [00:49:00] regardless of religion or whatever affiliation you have to tradition throughout the year, you kind of know.

You know, Valentine's month, you sorta know that it's Christmas. You know these big monumental things end up being devices to have conversations that I just sometimes feel that especially the adoptive parents aren't really recognizing. So, you know, when I talk about Thanksgiving and having a lot of extra people in your home who may not have your same value system or even the same language, and how they talk about things and how they look at the world, you gotta make some space for your kid.

Like you gotta just make sure or say, hey, if you don't wanna sit around the table for dessert, you don't have to, honey. Or, let me take you out for a walk, you know, for a little while. Like, just to be tuned in to some of these. That's just one example.

[00:50:00] So the podcast has just been like a way to look at adoption throughout the year and the recent shift that we made was, you know, there's a lot to learn. And from this empowered standpoint, it's like adoption can really teach people a lot of things. And then we have this space, I'm looking forward down the road to having the tougher conversations about money and looking at why adoption happens in the first place.

And so talking politically, religiously about some of these things and to do it in a balanced way, right? And, and to not be so that people have the ability to turn off and turn away. I would much rather create space to have the open dialogue so that we can manage it, you know? A little bit better than we have.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. So I've seen a real evolution of your show, right? Your first year or even longer, the episodes were just you and very brief and, as you said, the theme of each month, [00:51:00] whatever that may be, Mother's Day or Christmas, as you said. They were about 15 minutes, some very short episodes.

And then you've gone on to interview friends and colleagues. And the episodes I would recommend that people go listen to right away are when you are interviewing your mom in one month and then your dad and another. Those were so powerful.

And what a beautiful thing for you to open that up to us, that we can have a peek in at such an intimate relationship.

April Dinwoodie: Well, I mean, I think the thing too is like, uh, maybe I've mentioned but it has been, I don't know what I was thinking half the time. I'm like, did I really just do that? Like did I really ask that question? I mean, there's so much love there, but I'm also, like, I have to be so vulnerable, you know? [00:52:00] And I have to be like, it's their experience to have, you know. So I've learned so much about myself and about my journey of adoption through other people and interviewing them and having these conversations.

So it's sort of odd to recommend my own thing, but I don't know that there has been something else that has really brought me a really deep and new understanding about this experience and how it might be helpful to other people. I don't know.

Haley Radke: Of course as a fellow podcaster, I agree. I agree. And I have grown so much in the last couple of years of doing my show as well, and, you know, I'm interviewing people about their experiences and the whole time they're talking, I'm just like, oh yeah, oh yeah, I totally get that. Oh yeah, right, right. And then I'm also taking notes. Like, well, [00:53:00] I guess I need to bring these points to my therapist. Perfect. Okay. Oh, so good.

April Dinwoodie: Lots to talk about.

Haley Radke: Yes.

April Dinwoodie: And lots to connect on and, but, man, I just, you know, this space that you create, Haley, it's time, right? It's time. And it is empowering and that's kind of what I want it to be. I mean, look, everybody has their own true life experiences and challenges, but we've got a lot to share and a lot to talk about. So to be able to have that space is pretty remarkable.

Haley Radke: Yes, it is. It's so good. Thank you so much, April. Would you tell us where we can connect with you online?

Facebook is June in April. Instagram is June in April. Twitter is June in April. And then I have a website, aprildinwoodie.com. So any and all of those. And then the podcast is on iTunes, Born in June, Raised in April.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. [00:54:00] It's been so good to talk with you, and I thank you so much for your insights.

April Dinwoodie: Yeah. It's a pleasure and an honor, truly. And I thank you for making the space and for all that you're doing to get these conversations out there.

Haley Radke: Okay, friend, I have an exciting announcement. My husband and I are going on vacation. I know. So exciting for you, right? But we're coming down to San Francisco in May, and so I asked Nick if he would be okay if we added one extra day so that I could do a podcast meetup.

And so I wanna tell you about that and how we can meet in person, because that is my favorite, favorite, favorite thing, to connect with you in person. I asked Ann Heffron if I could do a write-or-die class with her, meaning learn from her, not teach it with her, learn from her.

And she said yes. So Anne is going to be teaching a write-or-die class in the afternoon from two to five, and then [00:55:00] later in the evening from six to eight, we're gonna do a listener meetup. You are invited to both or either of those events. And it's going to be on Sunday, May 20, downtown San Francisco, California.

And then the listener meetup is just hanging out. Hanging out, chatting, and I know there's a couple people that I've had on the show as guests before that are considering coming too, so I'm very excited about that. I'll let you know who else is gonna be there, but if you wanna find out more details about that, I will be writing about it in my upcoming newsletter. So adopteeson.com/newsletter.

And, also, if you just go over to the Adoptees On Facebook page and click on events, there's a link there with all the details on how you can RSVP, how you can sign up for Ann's write-or-die class. I'd love to meet you if you're in the San Francisco area or if it's easy for you to come and travel there. That would be awesome. [00:56:00]

And so that's, again, Sunday, May 20. Can't wait. Can't wait to see you there. Oh, I also just wanna say a really huge thank you to all of you who have signed up to partner monthly with the show through financial pledges on Patreon. And also some of you have sent very generous one-time donations. So thank you so much.

Your support literally keeps the show going. You are helping cover all the production costs and making it possible for me to continue this podcast weekly and produce more content for you. I'm so grateful, and I also wanna say a big thank you from all the future listeners who are going to discover Adoptees On and find their community here. They will do that because of your support.

So if you think this show is valuable, if it has made an impact in your life, I would love it if you would [00:57:00] stand with me and partner in this way if you're able to. Adopteeson.com/partner has details on how to become a monthly supporter and how to join the Adoptees Only Secret Facebook Group.

And also on adopteeson.com there's a one-time donation link, if that's something that you'd like to do. Thank you.

Okay, friends, that is it for today, but I have another awesome show for you next week, so make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find all our social media links on adopteeson.com.

Let's talk again next Friday.

59 Caitríona - I'm Still Grieving Her

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/59

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This show is listener supported.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 4, Episode 1, Caitríona. I'm your host, Haley Radke.

Welcome to Season 4. I am thrilled to be taking you on a journey of looking deep into the theme of relationships. You and I will be exploring what our relationships look like as adopted people. Many of us struggle to connect with others because we don't even truly know ourselves.

Join me as we learn from incredible adoptees in each episode of Season 4. Some have figured it all out and some are floundering, but [00:01:00] we have got every topic covered, and I promise you will feel like you're not alone in navigating this messy world of relationships.

I am ridiculously happy to share today's episode with you. You may have read Caitríona Palmer's bestselling memoir, An Affair with My Mother. Maybe you even cried your way through it like I did. Caitríona shares with us today what building a relationship with her mother was like, the heartbreak of being kept a secret, and the high cost she has paid for sharing her story publicly.

We wrap up with recommended resources, including an exciting announcement that you definitely wanna stick around for. All of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Caitríona Palmer. Welcome Caitríona.

Caitríona Palmer: Thank you, Haley. [00:02:00] It's such a privilege to be here.

Haley Radke: Well, I have been fan-girling a little bit. I'm not ashamed to admit it because I love your book and when I found out you actually listened to the podcast, I just about died.

Caitríona Palmer: Well, thank you. I mean, really, it's such a thrill for me, and you do so much for so many of us. So thank you.

Haley Radke: That's so kind. Well, I'd love it if you would start the way we always do. Would you share some of your story with us?

Caitríona Palmer: Absolutely. Well, um, it begins in Ireland in Dublin in 1972, when I was born.

My mother was an unmarried Irish mother, which in those days meant that there was really no possibility of her keeping me. But unlike many mothers of her generation who were forced to go away to mother and baby homes or to Magdalene laundries, my mother, because she was independent and working, was able to pay her way out of that situation and have me privately. [00:03:00]

So basically she, through the aid of a Catholic charity, was hidden in a suburban house in Dublin throughout the duration of her pregnancy and then gave birth to me in April, 1972. We spent, I think, just a day together in a Dublin hospital before I was taken by car across Dublin City.

I should mention that the car stopped so I could be briefly baptized in a cathedral in Dublin. And then I was ferried across to a baby home called Temple Hill, where I was there for another six weeks before I was adopted and given to my parents, Liam and Mary. I grew up in a very happy home in north Dublin. I had an older brother and an older sister, and I was defiantly happy.

I would tell people [00:04:00] early on in our conversations that I was adopted and I was almost proud of it but, in my mind, it had no impact on my life whatsoever. Adoption didn't change me. It didn't make me who I was. I was almost evangelical in that respect. But I was constantly shadowed by this sort of persistent ache, this missing piece of me, which I could never quite understand. But that I refused to confront, I guess.

But that all then came to a head in my mid-twenties when I decided to search for my mother. When I was 26, I moved to Bosnia, which was at that time reeling from the wake of the conflict that had torn the former Yugoslavia apart. I was working for a non-profit that had the very grim task of exhuming [00:05:00] mass graves and looking for missing persons.

I was very young. I was very enthralled by this work, but obviously very disturbed by it. But something strange happened in Bosnia where I was day in and day out dealing with the relatives of the Srebrenica missing, which was this horrendous massacre that had occurred in, in July, 1995. I would reflect on the fact that it wasn't even the corpses that were bothering me, it was these families of the missing who were completely torn asunder and desperate to know the identities of their loved ones.

And something happened in that time for me, where obviously there's no comparison to my situation and my missing mother in relation to the Srebrenica victims, but I realized, in this almost sort of light bulb moment, that I needed [00:06:00] to search for my missing DNA, that there was something profoundly missing in my life.

And that was the moment, in 1999, early in that year, that I decided that I would search for my mother. It completely took me by surprise. I had never expected to go down that route. I had, so I had said earlier when people asked me, you know, are you gonna search one day? I would say, absolutely not. You know, I don't need to. I'm very happy.

But that really did change. So that was the year that I embarked upon looking for my birth mother, who I found relatively quickly, which is quite surprising given the constraints of the Irish adoption system, which is obviously very closed and very structured against the rights of adoptees and their mothers.

But I found her quickly through the agency that had first brokered the adoption, which was called St. Patrick's Guild. [00:07:00] I flew back from Bosnia to Dublin, where I was interviewed by a very stern nun who was questioning me, almost like a criminal investigation as to why I wanted to search.

And that was a very difficult moment for me where I was trying to prove my worth to this nun that I was able to do this and that this was my right. Clearly she thought it was. After that interview, I was placed on a waiting list, and my mother was found very soon after that. She was delighted and thrilled to hear that I was alive and that I wanted to meet with her. She was overjoyed. She expressed regret over what had happened.

She had said she'd been waiting for this moment since she had last seen me, but there was a catch [00:08:00] that I wasn't aware of. And the catch was that she had never told anyone about me. So neither the man that she had married, who was not my father, but another man she'd married many years after I was born. She had not told their children; she had not told her friends.

So I was a secret, which completely threw me. You know, I had expected that she would be dead. That was the worst-case scenario or that she wouldn't want to meet me. But never in a million years did I ever think that I would be a secret, but I decided I could deal with that, that that was something that we would get through.

So we had this lovely period before we met in person where I was living in Bosnia, she was in Dublin, and we would send letters back to each other via fax because it was so long ago.

Haley Radke: This was through the intermediary, right?

Caitríona Palmer: Through a social worker at the agency. [00:09:00] I write about it in my book, but one of the most profound moments in my life was standing in this very chilly office in Bosnia, where I worked, in the city of Tuzla in eastern Bosnia and watching that first letter from her unfurl out of the fax machine and seeing her script, her handwriting coming out very slowly, which to me was that first resonance of biology, seeing something tangible that belonged to her. I still get goosebumps even when I think about it now and trying not to rip the paper out of the fax machine, you know, wanting desperately to read what was on it, but trying to be patient to let it come all the way out.

So that was a lovely period, really, where we were able to get to know each other a little bit before our first meeting, which took place in December of 1999. [00:10:00] I opened my memoir, An Affair with My Mother, with that first meeting because I wanted to portray the reality.

If you had been in the room that day, you would've seen us embracing. And my mother, who I call Sarah, crying tears of joy and it looked like such a happy scene. But for me, I was completely numb. I was, I think in retrospect, just in shock and I shut down. I mean, I was outwardly very happy to see her, but I was completely unaware of the enormity of what that moment would be like.

And it improved after a few additional meetings, but that first meeting I'll always remember as being completely extraordinary on so many levels and, and not really a pleasant one. And I'm sure you can relate and so many people listening in. [00:11:00]

Haley Radke: Yeah, definitely. It is such a shock, right?

It's surreal to be in the same room as someone with your biology for the first time as an adult. It's kind of nuts. And this happened prior to you having children as well?

Caitríona Palmer: It did. And I remember very vividly when Sarah first saw me, she reached for me and held me. And in that moment, and then subsequently when I had my own children, I realized that the last time, obviously, she had seen me, I was a tiny newborn baby.

And it was as though she was enveloping me again. You know, she literally gripped me and held me and wouldn't let go. There was such sadness and pain in that embrace. And I often now, as a mother, when I'm holding my children, I think of her all the time in that sense, just the terrible loss and the inability to regain that loss in that [00:12:00] first embrace.

So that really was the beginning of what I later termed our “affair” because I went into that first meeting with Sarah thinking, this has been a shock for her. I'm back in her life, but in time, you know, surely in a couple of weeks, at the very most a couple of months, she will tell everyone. And being the good little adoptee that I am, I really wanted to give her time and space.

And so I very much made it clear to her that she could take as much time as she needed, and I would emphasize that all the time. I didn't know then that it would be, you know, a year, five years, 10 years, 15 years. But I didn't want to lose her. And so we embarked upon this secret clandestine affair where we literally met in hotels across Dublin City. [00:13:00]

We would initially broker a secret assignation through the social worker who would let us each know some days we were available and we would show up. I was living outside of Ireland at the time, but I would fly in and I would show up at a hotel bearing flowers initially and gifts for her. And we would meet and have a lovely tea time or a drink in a bar, and then we would leave.

And after a period of time, I realized that it was impossible for her to explain these extravagant gifts that I was bringing her back home. So I stopped bringing them after a while. I also realized that she had very young children at the time, so it must have been difficult for her to actually get out of the house.

The logistics of coming to see me must have been daunting for her. But I never asked her what they were. We had ground rules, unspoken ground rules of these meetings. [00:14:00] Um, and they were both addictive because I really wanted to see her and to know as much about her as I could and about my own beginnings, but they were also deeply punishing.

I would leave feeling exhausted and wrung out and totally sort of scraped of all of my emotions, just bled dry in a way. And, you know, we had no support really. After a while, it was just the two of us. So it was very difficult to know how to navigate that relationship and the weight of the secret of this. My secret existence really hung heavily upon us.

Haley Radke: What did you talk about when you met up?

Caitríona Palmer: Well, like good Irish people, we always talked about the weather initially. [00:15:00] She wanted to know a lot about me. You know, in her mind I was living this adventurous, interesting life. And you know, I don't think I was at all. I was just living abroad and I had done interesting things with work, but she really wanted to know about me.

So we talked, we spoke a lot about my work and my dreams. We rarely talked about her. She was, that was really a no-go zone. We talked a little bit about her work. She worked as a teacher. We spoke a little bit about her children, but she was very careful about what she revealed. So I quickly learned early on what we could talk about and what we couldn't.

Sometimes we broached the past, but I learned again quickly that that was a topic that she didn't really want to go near. And that became a major issue for me where I desperately wanted to ask about my beginnings. [00:16:00] You know, who my father was. I wanted that story, but I was too afraid to ask her.

So it took a long time before I worked up the courage. She, of course, initially, very initially gave me the bare outlines, but I really wanted to know more. So the meetings were warm and loving, but frustrating. I would leave feeling as though I knew very little about her, about my own story, but I felt that with time and with patience and with, you know, grace on my part, then surely she would open up.

But she never really did, which is such a pity really, because, you know, she's such a lovely person and she clearly had such love for me and such regret. [00:17:00] That I almost, in a way, felt like the parent in the room or in the relationship. I was constantly reassuring her and tending to her needs, always putting myself or my own needs last, which I think has a lot to do with my psychology as an adoptee.

I know that's certainly a trait, but I think I really lived and breathed that. I was a people-pleaser. I still am a little, not as much, but I really, you know, worked hard to put everyone else before my own needs. You know, out of fear, I think, out of fear of losing people. And I was desperate not to lose her.

Haley Radke: Can you talk a little bit about when you started sharing this story in a more public light? [00:18:00] Because didn't you write a little bit before your memoir, maybe some pieces or did you do any interviews before you published your memoir?

Caitríona Palmer: I did. Which I never expected to, because it's, obviously, it’s my story, but it's also her story. And because of the weight of the secret, I did not want to scare her or betray her.

But because I am a journalist, I was fascinated by our story and I wanted to investigate it, and I kept that very much within my own mind. I was careful not to even say it out loud to my husband or to my friends. But there were a few moments in Irish public life that, particularly in relation to Philomena, [00:19:00] obviously it's a name synonymous with that extraordinary story of Philomena Lee who kept her son a secret for 50 years, when I felt compelled to write something. So I did a couple of pieces about my story and asked Sarah's express permission, could I write about it?

And that's where the name Sarah evolved. I mean, that is not her name, but I use that name to disguise her identity because I felt I had this place, I guess, in Irish journalism, a voice where I could talk about it. So there were a couple of very small pieces that went out. And then all of a sudden I was writing a book, which was never meant to happen, particularly memoir. It's a really messy, messy business. [00:20:00] It was a famous Irish writer, Nuala O’Faolain, who once said that memoir leaves blood on the tracks.

So I was very aware of that, but I began to realize that the only way that I could perhaps shed light on Sarah's plight and that of tens of thousands of Irish women who had been treated abominably by not just the Irish church, but the Irish state and society, that there was this well-oiled system orchestrated to basically contain these women, to send them away, to take them out of sight and to take their children away.

I just felt that I should write about that and to do it through my own story and that of Sarah's, and I approached her to run this idea by her. You know, we met in a hotel, one of our usual hotels, and I told her, I thought [00:21:00] about writing a book and she thought it was a great idea and we struck a deal that I would write a book, but I would keep her identity secret, which was a very brave thing for her to agree to. She didn't hesitate and that was a gift to me. And so I began this really extraordinary adventure of investigating my life and telling her story, which led to the book.

Haley Radke: And so you did indeed ask her about your origins and you went there.

Caitríona Palmer: Yeah. Oh boy, I did. And that was really tough. Even then, you know, it was really tough. In a way I sort of created this persona for myself as a journalist. I used my tape recorder as a shield. [00:22:00] I felt that it put some distance between us. And we met, uh, I was living in the United States by that point, but I came home for a week in October in 2013, and I sat with her. And in retrospect, it's the most time we've ever spent together.

So we met for four days in a row in north Dublin, close to where I grew up, for about three hours a day. For those four consecutive days, I interviewed her and it was heart wrenching and wonderful because we really got it out on the table and every day I would have to literally close my eyes before walking into that hotel and summon up courage.

Which seems silly, I think, that I was so hesitant to ask her these probing questions, but she was very hesitant to give me the answers, [00:23:00] and I'm still not sure why. I think it's possibly just the pain and the trauma that she experienced in that uniquely Irish system, it just deeply scarred her. And I often go back to those moments wondering, was I doing the right thing? Did I do the right thing? Was this fair to her?

But I was trying to get at my story, and I did do that to an extent. But what I learned was the depth of her pain, and her trauma, and I understood a little, the reason why she was keeping me a secret in this new, shiny new Ireland, you know, Post-Celtic Tiger. This was not the same country, and yet the fear of losing everything that she had built up since I had been born was so great that she would do everything she could to keep it hidden down inside.

And I should point out that, you know, I mentioned it already, but she really was not alone. [00:24:00] There were thousands of other women like her that I didn't fully appreciate at that time. I mean, that's another part of the story, which I can tell you a little bit later, the people who contacted me after I wrote my story.

But I knew I was getting at something as a journalist. I knew I was getting closer through Sarah's pain and anguish to a larger problem. So those days in that hotel when I interviewed her, they were really an enormous gift. And I look back on it fondly.

Haley Radke: So you write your memoir and it's beautiful and incredibly candid, and you share, as you've shared with us, about the painful and the awkward and all the feelings, it's all in there. [00:25:00] What happens with your relationship with Sarah when she reads this?

Caitríona Palmer: It's one thing to want to write a memoir, then it's another thing to actually publish it.

And I had not understood the depths of courage that that would take. I don't even know if courage is the right word. So I wrote it. I was very lucky. I got a book deal. Sarah celebrated that with me. And then she fell silent. So even before the book was written, four months, in fact, before the book was handed into my publishers, she sent me a text on Christmas Day, 2014.

We would reach out to each other on holidays and then occasionally throughout, once a week or so, we would send each other a text. [00:26:00] But on Christmas Day, 2014, she sent me a very cheery text wishing me a Happy Christmas and sending love, and I replied. And then I never heard from her and have not heard from her ever since.

So she had not even seen the book at that point because it wasn't even written. I reached out to her consistently for the next several months. I was very worried. I checked the death notices in the Irish newspapers, but there was no word. I do know that she is alive. I was able to find that out through another part of her family. I don't want to do any spoiler alerts in terms of the book.

So I have no idea why. I mean, I think the fear of publication, the pain of what was about to happen was possibly too great for her. So she chose to just drift away. [00:27:00] I feel terrible about that. I feel like I am to blame.

I, on my darkest days, feel that perhaps by publishing the book I committed some type of literary betrayal. But I try and stand firm in knowing that it was my story to tell and that I told it with as much love and compassion and empathy as possible. I mean, I often refer to this book as a love letter to her.

In a way, when I think back on the reasons for writing it, I mean, obviously as a journalist, I wanted to tell this story and this larger story, and, as you're probably aware, it is a sort of a larger exploration of the legacy of secrecy and shame in Ireland. But I also wanted to publicly exonerate Sarah.

I wanted her to understand that what had happened was not her fault, because she truly believes that it is her fault, that she's to blame. [00:28:00] But I wanted her to see that it was Ireland's fault and the way that my country chose to shame and to mistreat these women. So it's very confusing and it's very sad.

But the flip side and the extraordinary thing of this book, which I never expected going into publication, are the hundreds of letters that I've received from people either in my situation, secret adoptees, or in Sarah's situation, mothers who were forced to give their children away, from birth fathers, from people who've lived under the weight of a family secret, be it alcoholism or sexual assault.

It's been truly astonishing. [00:29:00] And each letter or email or Facebook message is a gift. So I've lost Sarah, hopefully not forever, but, in a way, she through her bravery and her courage in allowing me to tell the story, she has gifted to many, many people who've written to me this sense of solace that they're not alone, that there are others in our situation, that adoption ruins lives in many, many respects. And that there is hope and some redemption. It's very complicated.

Haley Radke: I'm trying not to cry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that this feels like it's cost you your relationship with her. And I remember when my first mother stopped communicating with me in our reunion and just thinking, Oh my gosh, what did I do?

And now, as a podcaster, I think, does she follow this? [00:30:00] Am I saying something that's gonna be like, well, this is it. This is the deal breaker. So there's always this wondering. Would you go back in time? Would you do it again? I mean, the price that you've paid versus all of these people hearing their story through yours.

Caitríona Palmer: I would definitely do it again. That's the thing, right? And I've learned so much through this experience, and I've grown up a lot. And I would do it again. And I don't think I would do it even any differently because I know I approached it ethically and with love. You know, I think maybe what I wouldn't have done, if I look back on my relationship with Sarah, I don't think I would've remained a secret for so long.

And I'm older now, obviously, and I'm wiser. And having become a mother three wonderful times over in the meantime has taught me a lot. And it's taught me a lot about love and [00:31:00] resilience and grit. I think what I would do differently would be to, you know, with love and compassion and as much empathy as possible to say to Sarah early on, you know, I can't do this.

I can't be a secret. I can't skulk around, you know, I love you. I want you to be happy, but this is not good for me because it wasn't good for me. I was perpetuating every bad belief I'd ever had about myself that I wasn't worth it, that I wasn't good enough, that I wasn't lovable by skulking around. And by having this secret relationship with my mother, I was enforcing that and perpetuating it.

So, I mean, it's obviously easy to say this now, right? That I'm the older, wiser Caitríona. And I think it would've been better for the both of us, [00:32:00] because I think a lot about the weight of that secret on her and living this bifurcated life.

And, you know, you and I both have young children and we both work and it's a crazy existence. You know, I lurch from day to day, from one crisis to the next, and I'm perpetually exhausted. And I think of Sarah who had children very similar in age to my children when she and I first met. And the enormous strain that that must have placed on her to live that life with these children and then be sneaking off once in a while to meet with this older, secret child.

But in a way, you know, there's been so much love that has come our way and, obviously it's directed towards me because readers are writing to me, but it's the love is coming towards both of us. [00:33:00] So, like you with your podcast, when I speak publicly, I'm very conscious that she might be listening and I always try to address her and to tell her that she has helped so many people.

And that's an amazing thing that she has done. You know, one woman wrote to me saying that she had been depressed for many, many years over her own secret child that she had lost to adoption. And reading my book had spurred her to see a therapist and had essentially saved her life. It's a lovely thing for me to hear, but I want Sarah to know that, that she saved another woman's life by telling her story.

So there has been a massive personal price for me to pay, but I think I would pay that a thousand times over. But I hope, and I worry about the personal cost to her. [00:34:00] And this estrangement, I hadn't even thought about it until I listened more closely to your podcast and, you know, that this really is, I guess, a second rejection in a way, but perhaps one that I might have played a role in. I don't know.

Haley Radke: Well, you mentioned that you have three lovely children. And she's met them, is that right?

Caitríona Palmer: Yeah, she has. Early on into our relationship when I had my first child, Liam, she became another grandmother on these trips home to Ireland, and I would take him and then my two daughters to visit with her again in the hotel.

It became a little bit more complicated then, you know, with toddlers running around. Initially, as I mentioned earlier, she and I would have tea or a drink, [00:35:00] but that's harder to do when you have squirmy young children. So we would go for a walk. We would play in the garden of this hotel.

And that was really lovely because in those moments, the weight of the secret lifted. And I could just see in her the pure joy of being a grandparent and being a nervous grandparent. She was always worried about my son falling off a tree when he was climbing. And that was lovely to watch. I know that she's become a grandmother since then with her own, uh, children.

But she had this moment with my kids initially, and that is difficult for me. As I wrote in the book, it was difficult for me to be kept hidden, but I struggled that they also were part of the secret. I truly believed that when I had my first child, [00:36:00] that that would be the moment where she would, you know, run up to the attic of her house and jump out on the roof and declare my existence and his existence.

I really thought that that would be the moment, and it wasn't. So that's when I realized that we were in it for the long haul. But I think going back to the children. Another reason why I wrote the book was to, in a way, draw a line in the sand. I wanted my children to know who I was and I wanted them to know my own story, and I wanted the secret to stop with them.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Caitríona Palmer: Sarah obviously cannot own us publicly, but moving forward the secret has been given a name and they know my past. And that's a gift that she's given me, obviously, and being able [00:37:00] to tell that. But I didn't want them to grow up tainted by the secret. I didn't realize that at that time when I was writing the book. But, you know, that's really become very clear since then.

Haley Radke: How do you think your reunion with Sarah and this sort of journey has impacted your mothering?

Caitríona Palmer: You know what? I don’t know how you feel about having your kids. You know, for me there is extraordinary joy in having a biological relative close by. I still can't believe it. So I want to just inhale my kids. I think every parent does, but there's just something really amazing about that.

But I think my reunion with Sarah has really imbued me with, I think, a level of compassion and empathy that I possibly wouldn't have had, [00:38:00] because in the moment in which I held my son for the first time, my first child, I just fully understood with magnified clarity the agonizing situation that she was put through.

You know, I actually couldn't believe it. And I don't know how you felt, but I just thought, hang on, I just couldn't have done that. And she had to because of the forces that were so pervasive and so toxic in that moment. And just how you will never get over that. How your life from that moment onwards is destroyed.

Whether you get on with your life and you marry or live a productive life as she has done, I'm thinking, inwardly you're destroyed. [00:39:00] So I approach, I think, my mothering knowing that. So I love my kids, but I love them with this intensity that obviously scares me. I think sometimes, and you know, they're great kids and I, you know, that's a little obnoxious to say that about your own kids, but they really are, there's a lot of joy in our home and for that, I'm very grateful.

And there's joy in the fact that my older son, Liam, really looks like Sarah and I see flashes of her all the time, how he looks or he'll turn a certain way and that's amazing. So she's present, even though I've lost her, I see her in them and I know that she would be very proud of them. I'm a better mother because of all of what's happened.

Haley Radke: Were your kids old enough to remember her? [00:40:00]

Caitríona Palmer: Yeah, the older Liam and Caoimhe both remember her and I told them who she was. That was important to me, that they knew at the time even though they were very young. Some people have criticized me for that. The way many people criticized my parents for telling me when I was six that I was adopted. But I didn't want to perpetuate the secret.

So I told them that she was my other mother, and they were perplexed that a mother would have to give a child away. They didn't understand that. Caoimhe referred to her as the sad lady. When we would go home to Dublin, she would say, will we see that nice lady, the sad lady? Which always intrigued me. Sarah was so warm and bright and engaged with them, but that there was this [00:41:00] pervasive sadness about her that even a very young child could see. And I wish she could see them now because, you know, it's been many years and I think she would be amazed by them.

And a few times in the last year or two when I have not heard from her, I've sent a random text, hoping that she might respond and letting her know. It's meant really that I just want her to know. I sent her a text one time when Caoimhe had learned to ride a bike because that just seemed really exciting and I thought she'd like to know that.

And Caoimhe did really well this weekend in a swim meet. And I wanted to let her know and I didn't. I decided to just hang back because I don't get responses and I don't want to upset her and maybe one day she'll come back. [00:42:00]

Haley Radke: Caitríona, is there anything you want to say to us in general about that relationship between a mother and daughter as we wrap up?

Caitríona Palmer: I think the love is always there and I think I never understood how losing her really impacted my life, and I think I'm still figuring that out. And even though I've written a memoir on adoption, I still think there's more that I'm learning. And as I said earlier in this wonderful conversation, I grew up adamantly certain that adoption had not affected my life.

I was just determined to be the best person I could be and to prove my parents' worth and to excel at school and at work. And I did very well. [00:43:00] But what I didn't understand was that that primary loss, that losing Sarah really impacted me and altered me and changed me. And obviously I'm the person I am today because of that.

But I think that that loss, her loss has been profound. And I don't ever think I've ever said that publicly in all of the interviews I've done about the book. You know? And I think I'm still grieving her, and I think I grieve her every day despite my wonderful, happy life and despite the wonderful upbringing I had and my amazing husband and children, and the fact that I go out to work every day and can seem to manage to write books.

I'm internally grieving this woman, this ghost. You know, that's a love that I'll never regain in a way. [00:44:00] I think that the memoir is an attempt to sort of grasp at that. I'm not sure I answered the questions I set out to answer in it, but I wanted people to know that you can grow up happily adopted and still have this hole.

You know, I always feel like there's a hole inside of me, deep down inside that I just can't quite fill in spite of the abundance of love that I'm surrounded with every day. That, you know, that primary loss is profound.

Haley Radke: You started out saying that there was this missing piece, and I think there's just no way, it seems for me, to explain that to someone who's not adopted.

Caitríona Palmer: Yeah, you know, the interesting thing about my book. It was received very well and I got a lot of wonderful praise and critical acclaim, [00:45:00] but there were people who just didn't understand why I needed to write that, or why I needed to investigate my own story or figure out the facts.

You know, on the surface, everything's great. Look at me, Liam and Mary adopted me. I had this wonderful middle-class upbringing. I was the first person in my family to go to college. It was great. What do I have to complain about? You know, everything's fine, right? But you cannot, I think, replace love in that way.

I have grown up with an abundance of love, but there is still that missing part of me, that dissonance, that strange itch that I can't quite scratch. And it's wonderful to have this conversation with you. You get it. And many, many, many of your listeners, I'm sure all of your listeners get it.

[00:46:00] And how lucky are we that there is this community and this opportunity to talk about it? And I expect to do more of this. You know, I have not spoken to many adoptees, and that's a strange thing for me, but there is this resonance, that you get it and that others get it. And there's belonging in that.

And I think we all just want to belong, really. I mean, every human being wants that sense of belonging, but it was denied us in a strange way. And we were meant to express gratitude and move on. And yet there's this ghost in my life that I miss and that I still pine after and who I worry about. And, you know, we are an amalgam of all of those parts, I think.

I always say that I'm a part of each of my parents and my biology and my adoptive family. And that's a wonderful thing. [00:47:00]

Haley Radke: Well, Caitríona, thank you for sharing your story and those beautiful, insightful things about your relationship with your mother and your own children.

I want to go to recommended resources and, first of all, your book is amazing, totally amazing. It's called An Affair with My Mother, and it's so beautifully written. You give insights into Sarah's circumstances. As you said, you got to interview her for four days, three hours a day, so we do get that history as well.

You share about your adoptive parents and how they came to adopt you. Your older siblings are their biological children. And the circumstances which led them to adoption. [00:48:00] And you do give this really insightful look into the Irish system.

I had no idea that the Magdalene laundries were still carrying on even to the seventies. So I went to Wikipedia and it was like, oh, the last one closed in 1996.

Caitríona Palmer: 1996, in Dublin.

Haley Radke: That's insane. So I really recommend people go and investigate that further. Your mother Sarah, she didn't have to go to the laundries. I don't wanna go down that rabbit trail, but it's a very, very sad history.

And I didn't know, there's this story about smuggling contraceptives across the border. Gee, I wonder why you had all these pregnancies there. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Like, I don't really know much about Irish history. When did contraceptives become legal in Ireland? [00:49:00]

Caitríona Palmer: Well, um, not until the 1990s. And I mean, where do I begin? How many hours do you have? I mean, obviously things are different now, but abortion is still not legal in Ireland unless the life of the mother is at risk.

But there have been some horrendous cases in recent years where one case in particular a young woman died, having been denied a termination even though she was close to death. And it's easy to say that this is the church, but actually it's collusion between the church and state.

But going back to women like Sarah, the main idea was that these women were really a threat to Irish society and, [00:50:00] and to the nation state that had emerged after Irish independence. So very early on, after independence, when basically British rule had taken care of Ireland's social ills, when Ireland became newly independent, we had to do it ourselves.

And that's when the new fledgling Irish state turned over care of societal ills to the church. So that's when you see the, basically, containment. There's a wonderful professor at Boston College, professor James Smith who coined the phrase, Ireland's “architecture of containment.” So you had Magdalene laundries and mother and baby homes.

And these were essentially places where unmarried mothers, yes, but women who perhaps had the whiff of promiscuity about them or young girls growing up in a home where a mother had perhaps passed away and there were only brothers living there were literally taken by the state and put away for not having committed any crime. [00:51:00]

And they languished there either in a Magdalene laundry literally washing the nation's dirty laundry. These laundries had contracts with the Army and other state-run institutions, and there they remained. So, as you say, the last Magdalene laundry closed in Dublin in 1996.

So, you had no choice. I mean, it's obviously changed. But I grew up, I'm 45, I graduated from university in Dublin in 1993. And even back then the worst thing that could happen to you would be to have a pregnancy outside of marriage. You know, when people wonder why Sarah could not reveal me, this is obviously the root of it. But there, there are so many aspects to it. [00:52:00]

And now, you know, your listeners may know of the extraordinary case of the Tuam mother and baby home, where recently hundreds of remains of infants were found. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

There's been a lot of international attention on Tuam, and rightly so. But Tuam is just one of many, many, many horrific stories. And there are, to my knowledge, other potential graves. And the state is trying to address it, but they're focusing only on certain homes and that needs to widen.

So, even today in Ireland, this debate goes on and people tut-tut about what happened, but I don't think we're really addressing it properly. Not to the Magdalene survivors or to women like Sarah. There are so many victims of Ireland's unconscionable treatment of, of unmarried mothers. [00:53:00]

Haley Radke: Can you tell us a little bit about the Clann Project?

Caitríona Palmer: Yeah, certainly. This is an amazing initiative by some groups back in Ireland to help establish the truth of what happened to unmarried mothers and their children in 20th-century Ireland. It's important to let your listeners know of this initiative because this group called Clann, which is spelled C-L-A-N-N, they're assisting anyone who can give evidence to Ireland’s current commission of investigation into the mother and baby homes by arranging free legal assistance.

[00:54:00] So if you have a listener to your podcast who perhaps was, whose mother was in a mother and baby home, or who themselves were born there, or even somebody like me, I was not in a mother and baby home, but I've been affected through that system. You can reach out to this group Clann. And they will put you in touch with a legal firm in London and you can provide testimony to that legal firm, which will then be provided to the commission.

So it's basically what I've done in my book. It's telling stories, it's speaking our own truth and building this larger narrative that can be of enormous benefit going forward. So that the ghosts of all the past will have a voice.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's so good. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes, and then maybe if you have any other ideas for people who want to look more into the history of Ireland and, um, this legacy, is that what I should call it? That people could look up any books or other ideas that you have for them? I could link to that as well. [00:55:00]

Caitríona Palmer: Thank you.

Haley Radke: I'm so excited because you have agreed to do our very first Adoptees On Book Club,

Caitríona Palmer: Thank you. I'm thrilled.

Haley Radke: So, we're still working out the details, but we're going to do a pop-up Facebook group, and if you've never heard of a pop-up Facebook group before, essentially, we're gonna have a closed group. So when you join, people will see that you've joined, but everything that we write in the group stays private just to the members.

And it's going to be open as soon as this airs, but we're going to start discussing the book during the month of April and there'll be opportunities for you to ask questions or to discuss things that you're learning about yourself, or about Caitríona, or adoptees in general, or about the Irish adoption system.

Any of those topics are definitely welcome and we'll probably do maybe like a Facebook Live with Caitríona, something like that. [00:56:00] We're still planning it all out, but it's gonna be just an awesome opportunity to read this book together and really deep dive.

I was saying to you earlier, Caitríona, I bawled all the way through your book, so thanks for that. But really, I felt like so many of your experiences and your feelings, it was just, it's just me too. And remembering that moment when you meet your mother and you're kind of like, she's crying and you're kind of stiff. I'm like, oh, yeah, I think I was in shock for that too.

And there's, there's, there's several moments in the book, I'm not gonna say what they are, but there's several times where I'm like, oh my gosh, that's just what happened to me. Or just feeling the pain that some of those things have caused you.

[00:57:00] So, now's your chance. You can grab the book so you'll be ready to start our Book Club in April and you can pick up An Affair with My Mother. I can't say enough nice things about it.

Caitríona Palmer: Thank you. What a fun and wonderful thing to do and, you know, I'll learn so much from this and from readers.

Haley Radke: Have you read it with adoptees before, like in this kind of situation?

Caitríona Palmer: No, I haven't. I mean, I've done several book club events, but never with adoptees. So my only sort of contact has been through these letters that I've received. And I keep thinking that I need to do something with it. It almost feels like a responsibility for the people who write to me. So perhaps there's an opportunity for me to do something, you know, certainly back home in Ireland.

But again, you know, so many people from around the world have reached out that perhaps, you can inspire me. [00:58:00]

Haley Radke: You can invite them to join the Book Club.

Caitríona Palmer: Yes, yes, actually I can. Thank you.

Haley Radke: You can reply back and be like, here's the link. So, I'll put the link in the show notes, but if you just search Adoptees On Book Club pop-up group, it should pop up for you. And as it's a pop-up club, at the end of April we're gonna close it so you have to join when it's open.

Okay. Caitríona, what would you like to recommend to us?

Caitríona Palmer: Well, I spoke earlier about resonance and, uh, I came to social media late in the day. I actually didn't have a Facebook page until I published the memoir, nor a Twitter account. So I'm a little sad in that regard, but this has opened up an entirely new world to me.

[00:59:00]So I meet you through social media, and slowly but surely through the book I have become connected with adoptees and people in the adoption world. And I've been touched and amazed and made whole by so many voices out there.

But in particular, Anne Heffron has really made an impact on me. And just like when I listened to your podcasts and, you know, when I listened to the one recently with your husband, which was just so, so wonderful. But when you have that moment of Yes, yes. Yes, I know that I experienced that, and I always feel that with Anne when she puts out a tweet and I think, yes, I had that feeling.

That's exactly how I feel. And I run upstairs with my phone and show it to my husband. And there were so many things that she said recently that really made me laugh. And then that slightly horrified me because I'm realizing that that's me. [01:00:00] I really recommend her. And I know that she's been on your show and I know you speak about her frequently.

But I love the resonance that I find in Anne's words, and I find comfort in those. So, yes, Anne Heffron.

Haley Radke: Well, she'll be delighted. And Anne actually has two different Instagram accounts now. So she has one with all of her beautiful photos. And then the other one is strictly memes. And so, as you say, she'll have this thought. And right now, when we're recording this, she's making up this adoption dictionary and that's what she's been tweeting.

She's posting this on Instagram. Whatever word, she'll either make up a word or it's already a word that we use and then she'll define it and just sort of this brilliant turn, flip it on its head or whatever way that, I don't know, I would never think of. And it's so insightful. [01:01:00] So yes, for sure.

Speaking of social media, I'll tell you a little story about how I heard about your book. One of my very first guests, in fact, the first guest I ever interviewed that was a total stranger to me who saw my call for adoptees on Twitter and messaged me, and I said, oh, hey, I am starting a show. Do you wanna be interviewed?

And she said yes. Complete stranger to me. Her name is Maeve Kelly, that's her pseudonym. And she sent me the title of your book. She said, Haley, you have to read this book. It's so good. And so, of course, it's amazing. And so I started following you and stuff and we became Facebook friends.

I messaged you to ask if you'd be on the show. I texted Maeve immediately and I said: Maeve, Caitríona's gonna be on my show! Caitríona listens to my show! You made this happen. And so she was delighted. [01:02:00]

Caitríona Palmer: Wow. And Maeve, you know, I've never met Maeve, but Maeve's tweets are amazing. And she has been this friend out there who has been so supportive of me and who says the loveliest things.

So there are these angels out there, you know, who really help when I'm having a bad adoption day, you know, or, um, and I'm never sure if I'm having a bad adoption day, but I think, oh, maybe it's got something to do with that.

Haley Radke: I just blame everything on adoption now at this point.

Caitríona Palmer: Or if I read a bad Amazon review, which I've stopped doing.

Haley Radke: Oh, don't do that.

Caitríona Palmer: There was a humdinger recently when someone said that my adoptive parents did not deserve me. And that was a great day. Ugh.

Haley Radke: [01:03:00] Well, if you're taking lessons from Anne, she posts her one-star reviews on her Facebook page so everyone can mock them and tell her how amazing she is. So, you know,

Caitríona Palmer: There’s a thought.

Haley Radke: Oh, I actually got to meet Maeve in person and she has been an avid supporter of my podcast, so I appreciate her so, so much. She has become a dear friend.

We are so lucky to have you in our community, Caitríona. And thank you. I am so honored that you took the time to share your story with us and excited to keep this journey going with exploring your book a little more.

Caitríona Palmer: Thank you. And I'm so grateful to you and doubly grateful for your understanding and your empathy and just for getting it and for reaching the hand out to all of us, and I'm not sure you understand [01:04:00] just how important it is for the work that you're doing, which I know must not be easy.

You know, it's really important that you continue this, and I'm just so thrilled and so grateful. So thank you.

Haley Radke: Thank you.

Hey, did you know I have a monthly newsletter? I share little pieces of my life in there and try and keep you up to date with what you can expect from Adoptees On next. So head over to adopteeson.com/newsletter to subscribe, and I will be sure to include a link to the private Facebook Group for Book Club with Caitríona in the next edition of the newsletter.

This show is listener supported. What does that mean? I literally could not do it without your help. I have chosen not to accept advertisers on the show, so it will always be ad-free because of the generosity of people just like you. [01:05:00]

And whether you choose to donate monthly or do a one-time donation, you are saying that you believe the show is a valuable resource, that you want it to continue and you are paying it forward to other adoptees to find the show and be connected in our community.

If you'd like to stand with us and support the podcast, adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. Thank you so much for your generosity and I know that other adoptees that are just finding the show also express their thanks to you for helping to keep this show going.

Next week, we are talking identity and race with April Dinwoodie. Do not miss it. April is a fellow podcaster, Born in June, Raised in April. Such a great show. We talk about so many things. April is amazing, and I basically just sat there listening to her sort of awestruck by her wisdom. [01:06:00]

So make sure you subscribe in your favorite podcast app so you don't miss next week's episode.

Thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

58 Relationships - What's it like being married to an adoptee?

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/58

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a bonus episode where I interview my husband and we reveal the topic for Season 4. Nick gives some insight on what it's like to be married to an adopted person. So I hope that you will find that helpful today.

We recorded this in our living room, and if you hear some rustling, I'm very sorry. I want you to picture my cute dog snuggling up. I know it's just such a big no-no for sound quality, but I needed some comfort as Nick reveals some painful truths of the ways he was impacted during my reunion with my first father.

Let's listen in.

Haley Radke: Hi, honey.

Nick Radke: Hi.

Haley Radke: Do you wanna say who you are?

Nick Radke: Sure. My name is Nick. I am Haley's husband. I'm your husband.[00:01:00]

Haley Radke: Sounds official. When did we meet and when did we get married? How long have we been married?

Nick Radke: October, no, sorry. We met in September of 2001 at school and we started dating in October of that year, and we were married on August 7, 2004. So we're coming up on 14 years.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I forgot that.

Nick Radke: Yeah.

Haley Radke: It's been a while. I was 18 when we met. And you were

Nick Radke: We were both 18. You had just turned 18. So yeah, our adult lives have been together.

Haley Radke: Okay, so I asked you on because this is a sneak preview into Season 4 because we are gonna be talking about relationships in all varieties: intimate partner relationships, but also sibling/parent, as a parent and with our first parents. [00:02:00] I'm gonna have someone on to talk about their relationship with their coworkers. I mean, we're talking about all kinds of different relationships.

What is it like being married to an adopted person? What are the weird quirks that you think I bring to this relationship as the special basket case that I am?

Nick Radke: Well, when we first started dating, I remember you telling me, I think pretty early on, that you were adopted and It was kind of just an interesting fact at that moment in time. I remember thinking, oh, okay, that's interesting. I've known a couple people that were adopted and it made no difference, really, to me. But I think you had also made it pretty clear early on that you did not know either of your birth parents. [00:03:00]

So I just thought, well, that's part of your life and that you've known your adoptive parents your whole life, and those are your parents, and that's just how things are and that's great. And I hadn't had any close encounters with anyone that's adopted, just kind of had acquaintances, so didn't know if there's anything more that I needed to know. I thought you would probably tell me if there was, but otherwise life moves on.

And it did at first, while even getting married, there was really no change or any quirks, or however you put it. When the records were open, that's when I recall first discussing it again and how you were interested in learning about or getting these records and finding the information. [00:04:00] And I was there ready to support you.

I also just thought, I'm here if you need me. This is interesting and I'm not sure where we go from here. And I definitely didn't realize or had no thought of what kind of an emotional rollercoaster it might turn into.

Haley Radke: Okay. So we were already married when I found my birth mother,

Nick Radke: I'm pretty sure. Yeah, definitely.

Haley Radke: And so, I shared that story in Season 1 in the Finale about meeting her and being in a relationship for a brief period of time, and then she cut off contact. But what was your experience with that? Like, I remember getting that email and from her and I think we might have met that same day, like it was fast.

Nick Radke: Yeah, I think it was, you talked about, okay, I want to go meet her and her husband, go to their house and meet them. [00:05:00] And I remember thinking, whoa, already this seems quick and I have no idea what we're gonna talk about. And you were insistent on me being there, which made sense that I was there to support you. But I kind of anticipated it being one of the most awkward experiences ever.

Haley Radke: I think it was.

Nick Radke: Yeah,

Haley Radke: To be fair, you were right.

Nick Radke: It was. I mean, both of us being introverts, maybe even more so back then.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Nick Radke: And so, thank goodness, her husband was very friendly and managed to break the ice somehow. I don't remember exactly how, but

Haley Radke: Yeah. He was chatty.

Nick Radke: I remember him talking more than any of the rest of us,

Haley Radke: Like put together.

Nick Radke: Yeah. Because I sure didn't know what to say.

Haley Radke: We were really young.

Nick Radke: Yeah.

Haley Radke: We were super young. [00:06:00]

Nick Radke: Yeah. I remember kind of doing this all over again when we met her parents. That was even, possibly, more awkward. I dunno.

Haley Radke: That was the worst. Oh my gosh. Yeah. No one knew what to say. Yeah, it was super weird. And that was her childhood home, right. So I was like inside melting down. Watching me go through this reunion, what was that like? I don't feel I included you very much in it, and when it kind of fell apart at the end, I don't know, I just never had a period at the end. There was no this is over. It just was like she didn't wanna talk anymore, but I thought we would resolve it and get back into relationship, but it just never did. So, what was your experience of that on your side? [00:07:00]

Nick Radke: After meeting her and her husband, and then meeting more of the extended family, I don't remember having that many more interactions with her. I know you did on your own. Quite a bit from what I remember, or maybe just at the beginning it was quite a bit.

And then again with her dad, I know you met with your grandpa a fair bit. I guess I didn't really have an understanding that things were a little bit rocky for a while there, or maybe didn't realize you had met with her fairly often and then it just got less and less. And I think I thought for a while that it would become resolved and that the relationship would continue. [00:08:00] It didn't, but then you continued to have a relationship with your grandpa for a while there.

I really didn't know how to support you. It was harder on you than I realized, and I feel like maybe I didn't realize it until afterwards how important it was to you at the time. I think I felt that you were disappointed and that that was about it. And I think it wasn't until your reunion with your dad that I became more aware of how, I don’t know if devastating is the right word, but how hard it was that you still don't have that relationship with her.

Haley Radke: Well, I don't know if I really knew how hard it was either. Like, I think I blocked out a lot of that pain and it kind of came out over the years. But yeah, I don't think I had the words to express it anyway.

Okay, so, you mentioned reunion with my dad. [00:09:00] So I have been in reunion with him and his wife and my three siblings for almost eight years, and you've had a bigger part in this reunion. You've seen it way more up close, including therapy appointments, with me and with them. So do you wanna just kind of give your experience of this, this time around.

Nick Radke: It was different in many ways. It's long distance. He's not close. It's a full-day drive or a plane right away. So the first interactions were, instead of face-to-face, over the phone or Skype. I can't remember what we did first.

Haley Radke: We did Facebook. I don't know if I talked on the phone. I think we did Skype first.

Nick Radke: Again, awkward. Yeah. [00:10:00] And then again, early on, you were ready to meet them, which I was a little more prepared for from the last time. But still a little surprised how quickly you wanted to fly out to meet them. But I was much more prepared to be involved and be there. Like we had agreed, both of us, that I definitely needed to be there the first time and that was a good thing.

When we went there, if I remember right. I think I was only there for a couple days. And then you stayed on your own for a couple days longer. And that surprised me. I remember asking you several times, are you sure you're okay to be here on your own? You just met these people in person. They seem really nice, but you just met them.

So yeah, I think we, well, me anyways, probably both of us, had learned some things from the first experience that we wanted to do differently. [00:11:00]

I was very, very surprised when you found him. First of all, that you found him and that there was even a chance of there being a relationship there. I had something set in my mind that whoever this person was, we're not gonna find him. If we do, he's gonna have no interest. And it's not been anywhere close to that.

It's also been different because your dad and his wife have three kids, too. So that was also very different. And I think, for me, that almost made it easier in a way. It's almost more comfortable that way. Like, in awkward situations when you've got, now they weren't super young, but when you have kids around, sometimes it's just, I don't know, just easier. You can just talk to the kids then and it's less intense maybe. [00:12:00]

So that was kind of nice and it was really cool that they, I feel like they opened up to us pretty early on and were welcoming as well.

Haley Radke: Yeah. What was it like when I was first in reunion with them?

Nick Radke: Oh yeah. Well, this is what I said to you before. So yeah, the word I used is that you were a little bit obsessed with them. With him especially, so like, life stopped whenever he would message on Facebook or text, if he called, then it didn't really matter what was happening. Like we need to stop right now and Hailey needs to talk to him now.

Haley Radke: Okay. Well just like that's the honeymoon stage of reunion. And so, yes, it's weird.

Nick Radke: Which I had no idea about before. [00:13:00] Obviously that would be something actually. Okay, so from a non-adopted perspective here, in a relationship with someone who is, when that reunion happens to know about this, because it was weird and at first I like sort of tried to understand that, okay, obviously he's very important and you've missed a lifetime with him, so you wanna learn about him and spend time.

But it continued further than I thought. And I remember thinking a few months in, like, this guy is more important to you than I am. Like, what's going on here? So that was a little bit tough, and that would've been something I think would've been helpful to know. I dunno how I would've known this before, but for someone else who would be experiencing that.

Haley Radke: Oh, well, okay, so I was seeing June then, my therapist, after a while because it got to the point where it was not healthy. [00:14:00] You felt less than. You know, like you weren't the number one, and so June made us rightsize everything and that was so hard and so painful, like so necessary. I mean, I think that's what got us through. I don't know what else would've pushed me to do that besides a professional's help.

Because you are so obsessed with making up for lost time and finding out everything about each other, and you're just building a friendship, you know, basically as adults it was hard. I mean, I'm sure it was hard on the kids too, and, and on his relationship with his wife and, you know, like it was hard on everyone.

It's so unnatural to be reconnecting as adults. [00:15:00] It's so good that you point that out because, honestly, I think professional help is sort of what's needed to navigate reunion in a healthy manner. I mean, don't you think June saved it? She saved us.

Nick Radke: Yeah. Totally, yeah. She had a lot of great ideas and understanding about it. That was helpful. The other thing was that it took me a while to begin to understand. I think you had a fear, maybe, that the rejection you had experienced was gonna happen again, and that was never a thought in my mind.

Like it wasn't as black and white as well. If I missed this phone call, that's it. We're done. He's never gonna call me back. But sometimes it felt that way. Like it was so important to connect with him and to not disappoint him, I think. And I think maybe part of that was you had explained to me that you were worried that it could happen again. [00:16:00]

And I didn't feel like that was going to happen, but I began to understand more and more why you might feel that way. And I think because I had always felt that the relationship with your mom was going to come back together again. So I didn't consider that an all-out rejection. Maybe that's what it was. So that's why I didn't consider it to happen again.

Haley Radke: I think maybe only in the last year I've finally been like, okay, he's not gonna leave. Like, it's taken me that long. Like, I still even, you know, a year or two ago would be like, oh my gosh, what if I say the wrong thing? [00:17:00] And now I finally feel like, well, if I say the wrong thing, he'll tell me it's wrong and we'll work it out. But I still thought like a year ago easily, that he'd be like, all right, we're done.

Nick Radke: Wow.

Haley Radke: It is this intense fear of rejection. I think almost all adoptees, I don't wanna say all of us, but we're born with that. We are born rejected, and so there's something in our, you know, spirit that's like, well, even your mom didn't want you. So that is how we live out our life, right?

Nick Radke: I have a question for you. In this reunion with your dad, do you think it has been helpful to have some geographical distance, in that maybe there's not as much expectation to spend time face to face together now that the relationship is as far along? [00:18:00] I'm not saying you want the distance, but maybe in some ways it could have been helpful or

Haley Radke: Well, I mean, in the first couple years we didn't have kids yet, and I traveled there very frequently. I think over the years that has probably helped rightsize the relationship a little quicker. I definitely don't like being far away. I feel like we don't see each other, I'm talking about the whole family, we don't see each other that often. Well, and the thing with my birth mom, I mean, you know, as you alluded to, and I shared this in my story in the Finale, like she lives in this city and so sometimes when we're out I will look for her. Like, she doesn't live on our side of the city, she's a good 20-minute drive away. [00:19:00] I often think, what if I bump into her? That's still in the back of my mind, and even now, 10 plus years after, I haven't seen her.

So, what do you think that you have done that's been helpful for me? Like, I think you've been very supportive and especially in reunion, right? You were just saying how you kind of felt like you got bumped down to second place when I first met my dad but, you know, we really navigated through that. What are some things that you think that you were doing that were helpful in that situation?

Nick Radke: Well,

Haley Radke: I should give you the list. Well, you were totally willing to go to counseling with me.

Nick Radke: Yeah.

Haley Radke: [00:20:00] And, you know, we say that we went to counseling together and we did a couple sessions with them, but really it was very few that we did together, but they were of such significance and impact. It changed the trajectory. So I think your willingness to do that and help me implement the things that June advised us to do was really helpful.

Nick Radke: Yeah. I think what I've tried to do, I don't know, with some success and some failure probably, is to be okay with me not knowing what to do. Maybe it still is that way. It's an unknown area. It's still new to me even though it's been a while. But for me to be able to make sure I'm willing to take a step back and not have answers and just be willing to listen and be there for you and support you. [00:21:00]

Because there are still times that you'll have certain emotions or feelings or opinions that I don't understand, but I think I've come to the point where I'm okay with that. I'm trying to understand, but also to understand from a non-adopted perspective. To truly understand what it's like to be adopted, I never ever will.

And I don't know when I kind of realized that, but I have, and I think that, for me anyways, has been helpful to try not to necessarily put myself in your shoes or even think that I know what it's like because I don't and I won't and I never will. And that's okay. And I can still be helpful and supportive in other ways, I think. [00:22:00]

Haley Radke: You talked about when we were first dating and I told you I was adopted and you were like, okay, cool, whatever, to coming to this point where you're like, I'm never gonna know what it's like to be adopted, and yet you have a deeper understanding, I think, because of what I do. Right? I kind of talk about this all the time, and you've listened to a lot of the podcast and you've seen some of my writing online. You've seen some of the interactions. What are some of those pieces that helped you gain a bit of more understanding of my perspective?

Nick Radke: Yeah, the podcast itself has helped me understand, or get a little more understanding I should say, because then I hear stories upon stories of other people that have similar, not experiences, but I think similar emotions to you. [00:23:00]

Haley Radke: So you're like, it's not just her.

Nick Radke: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Nick Radke: Right. Well, no, kind of honestly. A little bit.

Haley Radke: I know.

Nick Radke: So yeah, that's helped. And then just us talking about it and reading some stuff that you've written. Early on in your reunion with your dad, you were writing your blog for a while there. And even that helped me kind of process it a bit too because you would talk about what was going on and what emotions you were experiencing.

We wouldn't necessarily talk about it, but you would write it and I could see it there and we would talk about it too. But I think that, through the podcast and through social media, there's kind of more of a broader scope. [00:24:00] I think too that you don't want to just flood me with adoption talk 24/7 because, maybe you could if you wanted to, but you know that I'll go a little bit crazy if we do that.

Haley Radke: This has been a lot about me and I'm curious, what should I be doing? What should we, as adopted people, be doing as a support for you, a non-adopted person? Now let me just pause before you answer that. I feel like I am myself a roller coaster of emotions. I have been through two bouts of depression, I think, with you. I have been suicidal. We were engaged, or maybe we're just dating at that point. I've been through a ton of different counselors and psychologists.

I'm the whole package, rollercoaster-ride-of-emotions person and you are very steady, even keel. [00:25:00] I feel like your family is super healthy and tight knit and, you know, you have a wonderful background and upbringing. And I'm just challenged. So I think that's part of what makes us work because you're stable for me.

But as living with someone like me, what can I do that would be helpful for you to be on this ride together? Or maybe I'm doing things already, maybe I'm already doing things, right? What am I doing?

Nick Radke: No, yeah. You are more so now than early on. What you'll do sometimes, I've noticed, is, because I wanna make sure I'm supporting you and I'm helpful in whatever way I can be, but sometimes even just to tell me: You know, I just need some time or some space or this is kind of just something I'm going through. It's okay. [00:26:00

Like you might get emotional about something that I don't understand, and I feel bad for you and I want to help you. And sometimes you want me to and other times you just kind of say, You know, I just need to talk to someone else or my counselor about this, or I just need some time, or things like that.

I guess just to know where you're at because otherwise if it's some tough emotions or, I don't know if tough's the right word. What I see as you being sad or disappointed or something like that, that I wanna make sure I jump in and come to the rescue and help. But I don't think that's always helpful, and you've made me understand that, sometimes more so, that it's not something that I can help with or that I'll be able to do much about, which is okay. [00:27:00]

I think that we went to, I guess would therapy be the right word?, early on. I was pretty unsure about it, but that was useful. So maybe that's flipping the coin more that the non-adopted person should make sure they're doing that. But I guess just bringing in your partner to help when it's needed and then understanding when there's not much they can help with. And then that's okay. It doesn't really make much sense, but that's

Haley Radke: No, I think it does. I think it really does. Like there are times when I need you to get it. I need you to understand this is why I'm losing my mind right now. Because it's easy for the rest of the world to be like, what's the big deal? Like, you have a set of parents, [00:28:00] Why is this extra set, you know, so important?

Like, it's really easy for us to be dismissed over and over and over throughout the day and triggered. I think you have really had a huge shift in understanding, I mean, with me, right? I think we've both kind of come outta the fog together, kind of, me a little bit ahead 'cause I'm the one experiencing it first and then you're sort of learning.

But even on Sunday, in church at the end of the service, I was like, so how many times did they say the word adoption this morning? And you knew, you knew exactly how many times because now you hear the things that trigger me. And so I think you've had such a willingness to learn those things alongside me and listen to hours and hours of my podcast.

Nick Radke: Full disclosure, I am not caught up. [00:29:00] I'm a little behind, but I'm doing my best.

Haley Radke: There's so many other good podcasts I tell you to listen to before mine.

Nick Radke: Yeah, which I don't. Yours is the only one I listen to.

Haley Radke: Okay. Well, my show is not made specifically for you, so I'm not offended that you don't listen to every episode. But I think it's important for me to be able to express my needs to you and, I mean, this in every relationship, right? You're not a mind-reader. So how can I expect you to know what I need if I don't tell you? And vice versa, right? I think it goes both ways.

I feel like I can easily dominate all the needs section of our relationship, though, right? So is there anything you wanna say about that? About how do you bring it back to: Okay. It's not always about you, Haley. [00:30:00] Like, I have some stuff too about whatever, I don't know, work or you've never had issues, but like if you did.

Nick Radke: Yeah, I think that's something I can work on still, but that's something, in the early days of reunion, that I could have expressed a little better. I was really worried about hurting you any more than you could potentially have been 'cause it was a pretty sensitive time.

But those feelings that I referred to earlier of thinking, wow, you're spending so much time with your dad or talking about your dad, or it was tough because I truly did feel like I was knocked down a notch. And I don't think I was comfortable. I mean, obviously, eventually I was comfortable enough to express that but I could have maybe done that a little earlier. [00:31:00] Maybe even for us to just talk about it a little bit might have been helpful.

I think just to make sure that you're heard, as well, on the other side, on the non-adopted side, if I need your help or your support, to be willing to jump in there. And that's not really a you-thing, that's more of a me-thing to know when I should do that, but I think we're there now.

Haley Radke: I think we're in a pretty good place, I don't think

Nick Radke: Yeah. And, well, like you said, you have so many outlets now where you have opportunities to talk about those feelings or just about adoption or just about your experience. Which is awesome. I think that's been super helpful for both of us.

Haley Radke: Oh yeah. I feel like just over the course of the podcast, in the last couple years, I have processed so much more than in the rest of my whole life, and I'm gonna be 35 this year. [00:32:00] So like 33 years of issues. And then processing them in the last couple years with lots to go.

Nick Radke: Yeah, and I'm excited that you've had some opportunity recently to even have some face-to-face conversations with people in our area and also not. It has been a great experience from my perspective. It just brings life to you to talk with, to someone with the same or similar experiences, which is something I can't offer. And that's fine. And that's super helpful for both of us, I think, for you to have that.

Haley Radke: So, we're gonna wrap this up. [00:33:00] The takeaways are that everyone should be in therapy, and you should go with your partner, and you should find some adoptees to talk about everything with because your partner will never fully get it. And they don't wanna hear about it all the time. Sometimes it's okay. Is that our big takeaway?

Nick Radke: Yeah, totally. And therapy was not, I don't know, I remember going four or five times maybe. I mean, it's gonna be different for everyone, but it doesn't necessarily have to be this huge time commitment. Yeah, I agree with those takeaways.

Haley Radke: And it's not freaky.

Nick Radke: No.

*Haley Radke: It's not like one hour of weirdness. It's just having a conversation with someone else there to sort of mediate.

Nick Radke: And you did a great job finding someone good. I think she had some experience with this. Because I'm sure there's probably many people that don't, so that might be kind of tricky. [00:34:00] And learn the lingo because I didn't know about “out of the fog” and “triggering.” I had no idea what that meant.

And so yeah, you just said that I'm more aware, like, we'll go to a movie or church or some sort of event. And it's not even intentional anymore, my mind is just tuned into whenever they're gonna talk about adoption. So that's helpful because, at least then afterwards, I can kind of say, are you good? Do we need to talk about it? How are you feeling about this?

And then it helps me, rather than a few years ago just going to something that I thought was relatively pleasant and you were kind of angry after. And I didn't know why.

Haley Radke: [00:35:00] I'm laughing 'cause it's so true. We'll be watching TV and then I will just get so mad because there'll be something about adoption that is completely false, and now you get it, right? But it used to be, like, what is your problem? And I didn't even know how to explain it.

Like I didn't know. I didn't know what was triggering me, but now I do. So thanks, honey. Is there anything else you want to say before we say goodbye. And wait, is it how much you're looking forward to Season 4? You just can't wait. You gotta get caught up with Season 3.

Nick Radke: Yeah. So yeah, totally. Keep listening. I don't know if you're gonna throw this in there, but

Haley Radke: Send me some money. Is that what you're gonna say?

Nick Radke: No, I'm gonna say that you work really hard on it but you do thoroughly enjoy it. From my perspective, you are really blessing other people with this podcast. However, on the flip side, I feel like this community that you're blessing is also giving back to you in a big way too. Thank you for doing that which I cannot. [00:36:00]

Haley Radke: Thanks, honey.

Okay, friend. Next week, Season 4 starts. I'm excited about all the different guests I have booked. I have names that you have heard of, names that I will be introducing you to. We even have a topic that's very sensitive, which we will be doing anonymously, and a huge variety of topics all under the umbrella of relationships.

I know you're going to find it valuable. I can't wait to share what I've recorded. Also, I will be continuing on in the Healing Series. I have a couple of new therapists to introduce to you very soon who are experts in this field of adoption and recovering from adoption trauma. [00:37:00]

So many awesome things are coming up, and I want to tell you, I could not do the show weekly without the financial support I get from people who are doing one-time donations and my monthly supporters. I just thank you so much. You are keeping this show going, and I thank you for standing with me and thank you for saying it with your money, your actual hard-earned money. I can't believe it.

You're saying that this is important and it's valuable and you want it to keep going. I am so grateful to you for that. Words cannot express how thankful I am. So if that's something, if you want to stand with other adoptees, you can make a one-time donation at adopteeson.com or partner up with me monthly, adopteeson.com/partner, and all the details are available there.

Come and connect with me! Adopteeson.com/newsletter has our monthly newsletter subscription link, and all of our social media accounts are linked there [00:38:00] as well to search @adopteeson on Instagram or Twitter. And you can also look for me, Haley Radke, on your favorite socials. Thank you so much for listening.

Let's talk again next Friday when we kick off Season 4, Relationships, together.

I mean, basically, it feels like every day you come home from work or else we're chatting, and I'll be like, Oh my gosh, look at this message I just got. Oh my gosh, look at this email I just got! Or, I just got a new Patreon supporter! It feels like close to every day that I get to show you that.

Haley Radke: [00:39:00] And so, I hope that it is helpful for you to know how important this project of mine is, because it does take away a lot of time with you and the family to work on it. Thanks, love. Thanks for talking to me. And if you wanna tweet, no? Okay. Okay. That's a no.

Nick Radke: Uh, yeah.

57 [Healing Series] Support Groups

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/57

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Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves. So they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.

Today, we talk about support groups and how to start your own, but if that idea kind of freaks you out, don't press stop yet. My guest shares a really great alternative idea to help build supports into your life, and it's free. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Jeanette Yoffe. Jeanette is a child therapist with a special focus on adoption and foster care issues. Welcome back to Adoptees On, Jeanette.

Jeanette Yoffe: Thank you, Haley. Great to be here.

Haley Radke: So you are the executive director of the Celia Center, and I was hoping you could talk to us a little bit about that, where it got its name (especially), and what it is.

Jeanette Yoffe: Okay. So, Celia Center came about because… Let's see, it's 2018 now. Nine years ago, I started a support group. I'm a psychotherapist and here I was working with children of families in adoption, and I wanted to know who was out there like me. Are there–where are the other adult adoptees? Cuz I wasn't meeting many in Los Angeles.

And so as a therapist, I took it upon myself to start a support group, which I called Adopt Salon. I started gathering names and having people come to this group. And what came about from that was the support group became–we became a community. And people would come up to me and say, “Can you do a training on this?” Or, “Can you talk about this?” And I said, “Well, um, I don't have a place or a space to do that, but I'll try.” And so then I thought, You know what? What if I started a nonprofit organization that is devoted to educating the community about foster care and adoption experiences because I…? There was such a need.

So then I started the nonprofit called Celia Center and for me to give it meaning, I chose my first mother's name, which is Celia. And so for me, doing this work, just always, I'm channeling her. Because I had wished that she had a place like Celia Center to go to, to get the support she needed when I had separated from her, the education, the support of being around other mothers, other adoptees. It came from a place of: we need to do more in our community.

And I took it upon myself as an adult now. I get to do these things and I'm gonna do this because it's important. And we are leaders now and we are the ones that need to educate society about our experience. We are the experts. So, and my goal was also to bring the constellation of adoption together, because I had read Michael Phillip Grand's book, The Adoption Constellation, which also inspired me to create this center.

And the constellation is the new term in best practice today. It's the politically correct term, which identifies anyone involved in an adoption. So that's the birth parent, the first mother, the first father, the adoptee, the adoptive family, and I also include the foster constellation. So, the foster family, the foster youth, and it also includes social workers, nurses, spouses, siblings, anyone connected to anyone who's experienced this life experience is part of the constellation.

Haley Radke: So this is sort of replacing the triad, which has had its three points and sort of gives equal to each point.

Jeanette Yoffe: Correct. Exactly.

Haley Radke: Okay, that makes sense.

Jeanette Yoffe: Yes, the equilateral triangle–which they are not equal parts. So yeah, years ago I wrote something on Facebook and I had written, “triad,” and I literally had 150 posts. “How dare you use that word? That's not the word anymore.” And I'm like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. I work with anyone involved in an adoption. I have compassion for all members. I agree, there's no equal part, but give me the new language.” And that's when I found this book and I said, “Yes, that's the term. It's the constellation and we're all here to support each other.” So I wanted to bring the constellation together through Celia Center.

Haley Radke: So, yes. Very good. So can you talk a little bit more about what Adopt Salon is? And also let's just sort of frame our conversation with… So you're in the Los Angeles area. I'm in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I'm actually trying to start an adoptee support group, and I know there's a movement to start more and more across the U.S., North America, the world.

So can you sort of frame it with also, what are some things that we could be doing to do that? Peer support or as you say it, constellation group, all of those kinds of things.

Jeanette Yoffe: Yes. Okay. So, and there's different types of groups. So, I run the Adopt Salon Constellation Support Group, so that involves first mothers and first fathers, adult adoptees, and adoptive parents.

So we're all in the room together. And I also include the foster care constellation, so foster youth alum, foster parents, and their birth families as well, and/or foster families. So we're all in there together. Now, I run this group. I'm a therapist, you know, that's a lot to handle for one person to… because you're navigating all these different parts of the constellation.

So that can be overwhelming for someone starting a new support group. If you're starting a new support group (like I had originally), which was, I wanted to do with just an adoptee support group. And that, anyone can do. And so how I did this was, I put an ad on an online newspaper: “Starting an Adoption Support Group.”

And I started receiving a lot of emails. And so, I kept hold of those emails and I said, “Okay, now that I have an interest…” (because you just don't know who's out there). I said, “Okay, great. And now I can go find a place. Let me see, where can I do this group?” So I called around to churches, local adoption agencies, and I said, “Hey, you know, I'm interested in starting a support group in town. Do you, would you be willing to provide us with some free space? This will be a free support group.”

And so I found an agency that provided a space for us, and then I gave it a name; give your support group a name. And you also will need some sort of mail server, or Mailchimp, or Constant Contact so that you can–as you're accumulating names, you can also keep them notified of when the group is.

I like to keep the group on the first Wednesday of the month from 7 to 9:00 PM, so it's consistent. It's the same time on that month, on each month, so people know what to expect. So you wanna keep that consistency. It's an open group, but only for members specified of the group that you're starting.

So if it's just an adult adoptee group, it's just for adult adoptees. If it's just a foster youth alum group, it's just foster youth alums. If it's a co-group of first mothers, and first fathers, and adoptees, fabulous. But only they are allowed to attend. You set that limit on who will be attending your group. And then the other thing is this (and I feel very strongly about this): you need to set some very firm and safe ground rules, because if you don't, things can get out of hand and it can cause feelings of not feeling safe. And it can cause what I call–what is called “secondary trauma.” We do not want to do that.

So here are a few rules that I have for all my support groups, and that is, we support each other here. We do not fix each other, meaning we do not give unsolicited advice. If you, when you share and you go around the circle, I would just say, “Give me your name, what part of the constellation you represent, and tell us what you're here for. Or do you have a question? Are you, do you have a pressing issue? We'll get to you first. And you can share briefly about your story.” So, going around to the group, again, as rules, we don't fix each other. We don't give unsolicited advice. You do need to tell us what you need. You know, “I do need advice. Please fix me.”

Or after you share–because typically what happens in a support group is, you share and you feel this sense of “Whew!” relief. Because you see everybody nodding their heads. Everybody gets you. We need to be seen, heard, and received. That's the beauty of a support group and, you know, everything's online today.

Support groups are important. We need to be with each other, together in the physical realm, not the Internet. We need to see each other and feel each other, because that's how we grow. We cannot do this in a bubble. So I also say, “You can also be here and not share.” And I call it you can be an owl–you can observe, watch, and listen.

That's okay, because I know the first time I went to a support group, I was scared $%!#-less. It was very overwhelming. I didn't know what to do or how to handle, and I wish someone said, “You can just be an owl. You can observe, watch, and listen, and just take it in.” So those are important pieces.

And when I do a constellation group, I do say this a lot. The reason why I bring the constellation together is because… Think about this: If you look at a tree from one angle, all you're gonna see is that angle. This group is about looking at that tree from multiple angles so that we can bridge the compassion between each other, see that we're actually more alike than different, and this is a shared experience. And how do we support each other within this experience, within this constellation?

So it's extremely powerful. I mean, support groups are amazing. I wish they could all be recorded. And actually, speaking of recording, Celia Center– we were asked to film one of our support groups (the single adoptive parent support group, because I've had multiple groups) for the OWN (Oprah Winfrey channel), Raising Whitley.

We supported Kym Whitley when she adopted her foster child, and she hadn't told him that he was adopted. So she came to our support group and we helped her make sense of why it's important (even though he's three), that he needs to know what happened! He needs to know his story. So that was filmed. We did that, and then only last year we filmed one of our constellation support groups on Long Lost Family for (I don't know if you watched that show), Joanna, who meets her birth father. She has a lot of questions, so she comes to our support group, and gets advice, and support, and help. So it's been amazing.

Haley Radke: That’s so cool. Yeah. That's so cool. And can you tell me where does the name Adopt Salon comes from? What does “salon” mean to you?

Jeanette Yoffe: Because of my background being an artist. And I didn't say this, but Celia came to the United States on a work visa to be a dancer in New York City and the salon, the term “salon…” I don't know how long ago it was, but they used to have artist salons where artists would come together, and they would just share ideas and connect with one another, inspire, be each other's muse… And I thought, Oh, that's a nice feel. You know, because I didn't wanna scare anyone. This is, you know, the constellation. There's gonna be a first mother there, and an adoptive parent, or a foster parent meeting a birth mother for the first time. I wanted to take the charge out of it and go, “It's a salon, come to the Salon.”

And I actually used to light candles, lower the lights. I mean, I was very aware of, you know, that sensory overstimulation. I didn't want it. I wanted it to feel safe. So it's nice to do these added touches, you know, lighting candles, creating an environment of comfort and safety is key. So, that's why rules are important.

Yeah, I think that I went over everything you need to do to start a support group. And we usually sit in a circle. You know, cuz it's, you know–we're all coming full circle. And have tissues. Oh, oh, and have tissues.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Don't we! Tissues. Okay.

Jeanette Yoffe: If you don't feel comfortable starting a support group (because you said that earlier), I tell foster youth alum and adult adoptees–find a listening partner. And that is someone that you can call and you both identify and know how it works.

And it could be a call that's every Saturday, or someone that you get to call every week who will be your listening partner–will just listen. Because that, in and of itself, is supportive. And it would be nice to find someone (if you're both not comfortable going to a support group), “Well, we'll be each other's listening partners.”

Again, you don't give unsolicited advice. You just listen, and you receive, and you acknowledge, because that is really important. Because we do need to share our stories. We can't keep it all inside. We need to externalize it, we need to hear it, we need to reorganize it, we need to rethink it. Because it's always, it's always evolving, it's always changing.

It's always feeling a little different, or we're feeling more vulnerable about it. We need a place to discharge, literally, from our minds and get it out of our bodies. So, as you can see, I talk. I can talk a lot; I can talk all day. But it's important. We can, and we have a voice and…

Haley Radke: Well, maybe I should have started with this question, Jeanette, what is the purpose of a support group? So if there's a… Like we are just talking, like if it's peer-run and you go around this circle and you sort of share your stories. Is it just being heard? And is there a difference between that and a therapist-led? Like, is there more of a healing to–I don't know, do you wanna unpack that a little bit?

Jeanette Yoffe: Yes. And there's different variables. Like I said, if, you know–I would not advise someone new going into this, starting an adoption constellation support group. You have to have done, number one, your own work. You have to not be biased towards any member of the constellation. So, that, I highly recommend, needs to be a psychotherapist (that's dealing with all members of the constellation).

You have to be adoption and foster care-competent and be able to answer some tough questions. Now, I've also run my groups where I have guests come, and share their stories, and tell us what they've learned, or what–it could be a birth mother, an adoptee, a foster youth… So, there can be a teaching component in your group.

You can have a guest come, and there's a...,or there could be– You could have someone running the group who's not a psychotherapist, have a psychotherapist come in for 15 minutes and teach some mindfulness meditation or educate about trauma. So you could have that piece. It's how you establish the group.

We are here to listen and share and support each other in our experience. Again, we don't fix each other. You, you know, as the facilitator–you wanna be honest. You know, “I'm not a licensed psychotherapist. There are some questions I can't answer. I can only answer from my experience.”

As a psychotherapist, when I run groups as (if you're a therapist), you are there to provide the expertise, and knowledge, and education. But anyone can start a support group. However, you do need to be aware that you may be triggered. You have to be honoring and doing your self-care.

There's another group (it's an AA and adoption group that I just went to), that Celia Center is gonna be starting to send out notices about. And that's for adoptees who also have alcohol, and dependence, and maybe alcoholics, struggling with drug addiction. And so that group, all they do is they literally structure it like an AA group, and you have five minutes to share your story. And every time you share, you have a five-minute share. And then they do a meditation, and it's done.

It can be, you know, anyone can ask questions in this group, or we can have someone come in and talk about a specific topic. You can have a suggestion box. "If we bring in a guest, what kind of guest would you like us to bring in?" So you do need to establish, as a facilitator, specifically what type of group this is.

We support each other; we’re here to listen and share our stories. And if you need advice, we will give you advice. Otherwise, we're just here to listen and support one another. And you can remain in contact outside of the group, which is really important. And I do say, and that can also serve as your listening partner person that you can turn to in the weeks when there isn't the support group.

Because a lot will come up. So we do want to create a community–exchange phone numbers, see each other outside of the group, but keep what's said in the group at the group. We don't disclose/share any personal or identifying information with those outside of the group. This is to keep this group emotionally safe, and keep this confidential.

So, I hope I answered your question.

Haley Radke: Yeah, yeah. No, that's really helpful. And in fact, at a conference I was at, I was in a support group for like an hour, and it did have all the members of the constellation. And there was not, you know, a specific facilitator and it devolved very, very quickly. Very quickly.

Jeanette Yoffe: Ooh, yes. You need firm rules. Set the tone. Yes.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so, really adoptee, adult adoptee support group is where I would love to start. And I think that's such good advice, that you really need an expert present to be able to direct the conversation, and do all the things that you've been trained to do, (that a layperson like myself, we don't necessarily have).

Plus, I would have that layer of being triggered and, you know, it's not good! It's not a good situation. So yes, that's very, very wise. Is there anything else you wanna tell us before we wrap up? About the Celia Center, or starting a support group?

Jeanette Yoffe: Yes, I actually do. Celia Center–we did our first Arts Festival last year, and we are going to be doing another one. And it's called Giving Voice to Adopting Resilience: Fostering the Spirit of Creativity, and we'll be doing another one in November. And also, I will be doing my one-woman play, which I did 15 years ago. I'm gonna be doing it again.

So I'm super excited to have Celia Center provide this for our community. We're gonna have artists, transracially adopted adult adoptees sharing their stories. We have spoken word artists, we have visual artists, we have singers. We have a dance troupe from San Francisco that's gonna come down and do their piece about adoption.

So, it's a great event that we're very excited about and it really helps transform what we're trying to educate to the community about having lived through foster care and adoption. Now we get to show it through our creativity. It's so much fun. It's empowering; it empowers you. And you actually feel stronger because of the experience, and it makes you stronger within yourself.

And to share it with another–when you share something with another, what's shareable becomes more bearable. So that's why we need to speak up, share our stories in whatever format you choose, because it's very empowering.

Haley Radke: Well, I love that you touched on this. All of my season three was this theme of healing through creativity and so I talked to a number of different artists in various capacities. I don't wanna list them all, cause there's too many, but specifically, Brian Stanton was on the show and also Nicole Rademacher. And we talked about last year's event, and how amazing it was. I think especially, Nicole and I talked in depth about it.

So if people are interested, they can go over and check out that episode. And then, of course, I'll link to all the information about that upcoming event, in November, so that people can come check it out. That's so exciting. I love that you're doing that.

Jeanette Yoffe: Thank you. Yes, there is a video on our Celia Center YouTube channel about the Arts Festival last year. And it's a beautiful video, just showing all the art displayed, and the performers, and it was an amazing event. It brought a lot of people together.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So, great. Thank you. Okay. Where can we connect with you online?

Jeanette Yoffe: Well, Celia Center is C-E-L-I-A center.org. And there's a lot of information on our website there, about our upcoming events, special events. Sometimes you go to Wolf Connection, here in Los Angeles. And again, our support groups are on there. The festival information is celiacenterartsfestival.org. That's a beautiful website for our Arts Festival that you can connect to, and you can always look on our YouTube channel, Celia Center.

Haley Radke: And your website is yoffetherapy.com?

Jeanette Yoffe: Yes. So that's my private practice for therapy. Psychotherapy.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much, Jeanette, for sharing your wisdom with us today. And I hope that this maybe will inspire someone to start their own support group.

Jeanette Yoffe: Excellent. Yes, go for it. Go for it. We need each other and we need to be with each other. It's important.

Haley Radke: Yes, for sure. Thank you.

Jeanette Yoffe:Okay. Thank you, Haley. Thanks so much.

Haley Radke: This show is brought to you by my incredible Patreon partners. Patreon is a website that collects monthly pledges that help sustain the cost of producing this show for you every single week.

As a thank you, I have a secret Facebook group for adoptees only, that you're welcome to join. And we have some really great in-depth conversations there about search/reunion issues that have been popping up from our childhood. And I wish I could tell you who's in the group, but I won't, because it's secret, right? But there are some really, really amazing people who have gathered to build this community, and I would love to include you in that if you would like to support the show.

If that's not something that you're financially able to do, please message me anyway. I have a list of several Facebook groups, and one forum that I like to send people, that are all safe spaces that I can recommend as alternatives. And don't let money be the factor that keeps you from getting support. You know, Jeanette had that great idea of finding a listening partner, and that's free. I just thought that was such a fantastic idea.

I just wanted to let you know about the ways you can connect with me online– so we have the Adoptees On Facebook page, and I'm on Twitter and Instagram @ Adoptees On, and you can also find my personal Twitter and Instagram @ Haley Radke. Or you can find me on Facebook;

I'd love to be friends with you. And if you would like to get our monthly newsletter, you can sign up for that adopteeson.com/newsletter, where I will give you just brief snapshots of things I'm thinking about or learning, and updates about the show. Very last thing. Would you share this episode with just one person today, as soon as we wrap the show?

What if you send an adoptee in your city a message saying, “Why don't you listen to this episode? What do you think? Should we start a support group here?” Or, if someone that Jeanette was describing– the listening partner and you think, You know what? I know exactly who would be a great fit for that.

Maybe you can send them this episode, and then chat about what that would look like for you guys. And if you're in the Edmonton, Alberta area, send me a note. I'd love to have you at our next monthly adoptee support group, here in Edmonton (which is actually taking place right here at my house). So, if you ever wanted to see where I record, you can come to my house and join in our adoptee support group meeting.

Thanks for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.