177 [Healing Series] Internalized Oppression
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/177
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.
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Today, we are talking about internalized oppression with psychologist Dr. Chaitra Wirta-Leiker. Let's listen in. [00:03:00]
I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Dr. Chaitra Wirta-Leiker. Welcome, Chaitra. I'm so excited to talk with you.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Thank you, Haley. So appreciative of you having me on today.
Haley Radke: It's embarrassing that it's your first time on the show. That's on me. But because it is, I usually ask our experts to share just a little bit of their story so we can kind of get to know you a little bit and know that you know what it's like to be an adoptee. So would you mind just sharing a little bit of your story with us?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Sure. I was adopted from India as an infant back in the days when you were escorted to the United States. Parents didn't travel to pick you up. So I actually flew over here in a basket with three other babies. And, so I joke with my husband, that's why I like my space when I sleep now because we were so squished in that basket. So I grew up in Minnesota: predominantly white [00:04:00] communities, two white parents. I have a brother who was adopted from India also, who's non-biological to me. And growing up, I always knew that I was adopted. Obviously, I was going to figure it out at some point because of the racial differences. But we didn't really talk much about adoption. We never talked about race, even though as an adult, I can tell that my parents were aware of it because they would do things like buying me brown dolls or we would go to culture camp sometimes. But they weren't great communicators, and so it wasn't really in their wheelhouse to talk about all of those things. So a lot of it I just tried to assimilate throughout my life and ignore things that felt hard about being adopted or being a person of color. And for me, psychology just always felt like a good fit. From the time I took my first psychology class in high school, I knew that was what I wanted to do. And so I got my degree, and then it was always a lot of [00:05:00] attachment and trauma work. I didn't really make that connection at the time. I worked with a lot of kids who were in foster care who had been removed from their homes. But then it was actually when we went through the process to adopt our son that I really made the connection and realized what a need there is for these services and that there were names and labels and concepts to describe all of the lived experiences I had. So that was really powerful for me just in the last decade, really, to understand so much of this on a clinical level and a human level, and to connect with other adoptees in more powerful ways. So now I'm a private practice psychologist in Denver and specialize in working with adoptees.
Haley Radke: That's amazing. I love hearing why people were drawn to the helping professions, like so many of us adopted people are. So thank you so much for sharing your story. [00:06:00] I'm curious because you really do specialize in helping adoptees and adult adoptees, what are some of the things that people are really coming to you for?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: A big part of it is what I would call internalized oppression, and I don't think a lot of adoptees have learned to label it that way. What ends up happening is that we get all of these messages from society about what we're supposed to be, right? “Supposed to be." That we're supposed to be grateful, or we're supposed to feel like we were saved. We're not supposed to talk about adoption, not supposed to talk about race or differences. So many of these messages we get become internalized, and it starts to create shame within us as adoptees that there's something inherently wrong with us for wanting to talk about these things or wanting to feel a different way or wanting to address them.[00:07:00] So a lot of that comes down to this place of us having to essentially kind of retrain ourselves to think outside of those messages we get from a lot of non-adoptees or adoptive parents and professionals who don't really get it, so that we feel pride and we feel empowered and we feel a sense of identity that doesn't have to be incorporated with shame.
Haley Radke: Okay. So internalized oppression is leading to lots of really nasty things, it sounds like. Okay, internalized oppression. I've heard that before, but I've never connected it to the adoptee experience. Can you talk more about just that term? I've seen it in research papers and with a lot to do with race.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah, absolutely. And it's absolutely present in race. It's present in [00:08:00] any type of marginalized group where there's privilege with one group and then others are at a disadvantage. And so often I don't think that most people think of adoptees as being marginalized. And we forget that we're not what people assume as the default and we are at a disadvantage in that way so that simple things like filling out medical forms where you might say, I don't have my family history. Right there, having family history is a form of privilege, and that sense that we don't, instead of a lot of times saying, Oh it's messed up that this form doesn't include I'm adopted and I don't have that history. That it's not a box you can check, it automatically turns into this sense of what's wrong with me that I don't know, or should I search, or why haven't I searched, or why don't I have that information? And it spirals into this place of wondering what's wrong with us, as opposed to saying, Wait a minute, what's wrong with the system [00:09:00] that's in place? So instead of seeing those systemic barriers as external, we tend to feel like it's something wrong with us instead. Those messages just become so ingrained.
Haley Radke: Okay. The external versus internal. Okay, that makes sense. That totally makes sense. Oh, wow. I wonder if that's a light bulb moment for anybody else because that's huge. That's really huge. Okay. So you notice that a client is experiencing that. That’s a big world-shifting view. What do you think about that?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: First, I think there are two really big parts to that. First, we have to identify that it's not something within this adopted person that's inherently flawed or wrong or limited. That it's oftentimes about the systemic barriers around them. So instead of only [00:10:00] looking at it in terms of I've tried this and I've done this, and why can't I do better and why am I not enough? That thought of not being enough is so common. And instead of going to that place, being able to say, Okay, so you've done all these things and they're not working. Have we looked outward to consider what some of the barriers might be in your environment to you being able to succeed or feeling better about yourself or these things in your life? So really expanding that tunnel vision that tends to happen. And again, because we get so many messages from other people: You should be well-adjusted and you should be grateful and you have nothing to complain about, and you shouldn't be worried about things you've lost because you've gained so much. When we get all of those messages, it's so hard not to feel like there's something wrong with us for not believing those things. And what I see with a lot of clients is, we start to talk about this disconnect that, [00:11:00] intellectually in our thoughts, we can say, Oh yeah, all these things they're saying make sense, I guess. And it then becomes distorted: I guess there's something wrong with me.
But then there's this disconnect to what we actually believe and what we know. And most of the time, on a really somatic and visceral level, we know it's not us. There's something within us that's telling us this isn't our fault and this isn't something wrong with us. And so when we can dig into that piece and really understand the messages around us and how they're influencing us, then comes the second part of not feeling angry or ashamed about the ways that we've coped with those messages. And the best example I can give is, so many people talk about adoptees engaging in self-sabotaging behaviors like substance abuse or even when it comes to attachment, like they're rejecting before they can be rejected. And that's, again, we get those messages like [00:12:00] it's something wrong with the adopted person. But the truth is, most of the time it's self-protective. It's not self-sabotage. And so if we can start to identify the parts of ourselves that have tried to protect us or tried to self-preserve instead of viewing those as negatives because outsider people might think that they are, it gives us an opportunity to start to really feel empowered and proud of the ways that we have managed to survive for so long
Haley Radke: Okay. As you're describing these things, I had to quickly scribble down “coming out of the fog.” So what are your thoughts on that term? Because the more you talked about the internalized oppression and realizing that was happening, it sounded to me like that's what happens when people come out of the fog. They realize that. [00:13:00] And so is this like a technical term for that? Or do you not like that term? What are your thoughts on that?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah. I have a hard time with that term because I feel like every adoptee is on their own journey and there's nothing wrong with them for being at whatever point they're at in that journey. It's one more way that I feel we put adoptees down or shame them, and we even do that within our own community. And so we really need to be able to say the reason someone believes what they believe is probably due to self-protection and self-preservation. There's something about their family or community or workplace, or whatever it is, that they are not safe to explore these other aspects of adoption yet.
Haley Radke: So the thing that we've been labeling, do you think that labeling “coming out of the fog,” is linked to [00:14:00] it? I get that. I've heard so many people don't like that term, and it can be dismissive and it can be really... I don't know. It's not a continuum, right? Just like grief is not like, Oh, you hit this stage, then hit this stage. It implies that someone who is fogged is not with the rest of us yet. And even saying that there is a “yet,” there's still all of those things that you pointed out as well. But the thing we've been labeling that, is that just instead the internalized oppression or is that totally unrelated?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: I think they're absolutely connected, that the internalized oppression is in some ways about survival. The things that are around us, we have to do what we can to adapt and live within them. And so if we take in all of these messages we're getting that some people will label as the things that put us in the fog in the first place, all of those kinds [00:15:00] of happy-unicorn-rainbows messages around adoption, then there's probably a reason that someone is choosing to believe them. Even if they may not fully be aware that it's a choice, there's a reason, and that reason almost always comes down to self-protection. When we talk about “coming out of the fog,” it's one of those terms that I think can be appropriate at times. Like if we're labeling ourselves that way, that we felt like we were in a fog and we've come out of it, that feels okay to me if it's empowering to that person. But when we're labeling other people that way, that's where it feels like it's shaming.
Haley Radke: Oh, like the fogged adoptees, or they're defogging or something.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Okay. Chaitra, I am sorry for just going back to that, but the thing is, I've never had another word for it and it's like an easy [00:16:00] phrase to say. So I love that you're teaching us a different way to say that, and it's so all-encompassing. My goodness, that is amazing.
Okay. I have a quote from you I want to read to you from your Facebook page, and I'd love for you to say a little more about this. So this is a quote from you: "Heartwarming stories are a band-aid meant to distract us from the systemic problems that caused the underlying wound. To create change, we have to be willing to look beyond superficial healing to what caused the injury."
Mic drop. You can't see the mic drop.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: I have to admit, I'm glad that's the one you chose. I was a little like, Oh boy, which quote? I've said a lot of things.
Haley Radke: You've said a lot of things. You tell me a lot of things. You don't know, but you are teaching me all the time. [00:17:00]
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah. My eyes have really been open, like I say, really just in the last, maybe, 15 years or so. It wasn't until my first class in graduate school that I truly understood white privilege, that it was something that just clicked for me. And it was something as small as a band-aid. So this idea of band-aids is that they come in this color that's supposed to be flesh-colored, but they never matched me. And suddenly it all clicked. Like, all these ways that I had felt different or there was something wrong with me; it clicked. There are all these small messages every day that are telling me I don't belong and I'm different. And so from that point on, it's been this journey of really understanding systemic forms of oppression. And, in that way, I felt like that quote really harkened back to where that first started for me and understanding that on a deeper level. But at the [00:18:00] same time, there is this constant sense of if somebody's stuck or they're struggling, what's wrong with them? Why can't they fix it? And it's this sort of individual-in-a-vacuum view. And instead, any time we're feeling stuck, what I encourage clients to do is really think about the environment around you. And funnily enough, I just posted a quote about that today. So this idea of what do we do when we're feeling stuck and we feel like we've done all the things we can to move out of it, we need to look at the external world around us and what is it that is putting systemic barriers in place? Or what are the messages we're constantly having to fight against? Or what ways are we constantly having to prove the validity of what we feel and what we need? And when we're having to fight our environment in that way, of course it's going to be hard to succeed and to feel whole.
Haley Radke: You [00:19:00] talked about the self-sabotage can be self-protective, but what are some of the ways that we can be protective of ourselves when we're unraveling this internalized oppression? What are the healthy ways to do that?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: So much of it is about, I think, how we frame it. That when we view the things we're doing, like when we buy into that narrative of things being self-sabotaging, as soon as we can reframe those as self-protective and embrace those parts of ourselves, it can be incredibly healing in itself. So if we realize we're in a pattern of pushing others away and we're afraid to get too close because what if they leave or what if I'm not enough, right? That's a common fear, and it absolutely makes sense that it's there because we have had someone leave us. And once we know something is a possibility because we've been through it, it's always [00:20:00] a possibility. It's always something that could happen again. We can't unknow what we know. And so if we acknowledge there's that part of ourselves that feels that, instead of getting angry or resentful and going, God, why do I do this? Why do I push people away? What's wrong with me? If we can talk to that part of ourselves the way that we would talk to a child or an infant to comfort that part and say, Oh my gosh, I see you trying to protect me right now. You're trying to keep me from getting too close because you're worried someone will leave, and I can completely understand why we're scared of someone leaving. And guess what? Right now, things are different because right now we've got this person who does this and this to show us that they're sticking around. And we are older and braver and wiser and stronger now, and there's more that we can do to handle this situation and to navigate it.
So if we can talk about how we take the time to navigate that and how we give ourselves space to say, [00:21:00] Thank you to this part of me for trying to keep me safe and protect me. And you know what? I've got it now. I'm okay. You can rest. I might need you again, but right now it's okay for you to rest.
Haley Radke: That sounds like Internal Family Systems work.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: To some extent it is, and I feel like there's a different level of that with adoptees sometimes too. We already have all these parts that are similar to other people, but then these parts we carry with us of who we could have been, this ghost life. And so in that way too, I think, we have a lot more parts to have to navigate.
Haley Radke: Oh boy. Yeah, I feel like that's a whole ‘nother conversation. Yeah. Wow. The ghost life, that's Betty Jean Lifton, right?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Ghost Kingdom language. Yes. [00:22:00] Okay. So you're talking to mostly adoptees here and adults–adopted people who are now all grown up. And I know it's not necessarily our job to be teaching our adoptive parents about the things that we're now learning and unraveling, but it just falls to us often. So can you give us some ideas or conversation starters or things if we're wanting to open up some conversations about this with our adoptive families in particular, especially as it relates to the things that you're seeing your clients talking about right now? And, if we're wanting support in these areas, if we don't want to be unraveling alone and then going to that unsafe place and having to defend ourselves or …you know exactly what happens.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah. [00:23:00] So in general, I think the first part of trying to normalize some of those things and feel like we can talk about them is to be around other adoptees. We really need that unspoken bond. I mean, we're a culture within ourselves. And so I think if we can be around one another, that helps because the isolation of feeling all these things is a big part of what I think is dangerous about it. And then beyond that, trying to explain it to others and trying to help them understand, I really feel like that's something that we have to be aware of as far as our own self-preservation, again. That, when things happen, I see this a lot with transracial adoptees of color, they'll feel like they should be at the forefront of these battles for racial equity and equality. And to some extent, I can understand why that feels empowering to be battling in that. [00:24:00] And at times it's exhausting and it's harmful, and we have to be able to understand when we need to step back for our own self-protection and self-preservation too, and there's no shame in that. So I think with anything, when we're trying to educate others about adoption or race or any type of marginalization, we have to be accepting of the times when we need to rest, too, and to know that doesn't mean we're not enough or that we're not doing what we need to do. It just means we're weighing the costs and benefits of how it's affecting us. So these people might say, Oh, you shouldn't cut people out of your life. You shouldn't cut your adoptive family out. It's fine to see this therapist just because they're not an adoption specialist. Those are things that are really dismissive of that experience and being able to say, I can do this to an extent, and when it starts to become more work for me than it is for the other person, it's [00:25:00] okay for me to step back from that and choose a different way.
Haley Radke: Okay, I like that. The self-preservation can mean choosing not to have those conversations. And, at the time we're recording, we've been doing this whole series on estrangement and it's been very eye-opening as to what things have caused these breaks in relationship. And so much of it is just can I just be me? Can I just be me? Isn't that wild? Like, yeah ... I don't know. Do you see that?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Again, those external messages of what we're supposed to be within a family instead of letting us be who we are and not labeling that as the problem.
Haley Radke: I have another quote written down from you. I promise this is the last one because I see your face. You get a little bit nervous when I say that.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah.
Haley Radke: "Multiracial [00:26:00] families often have to make difficult decisions about who to keep in their lives and who to cut out for the emotional and psychological wellbeing of their partners and children of color."
You just said that very recently, and that's exactly what you're sharing again with us now.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah, absolutely. That is one of the things that, unfortunately, agencies don't talk about and don't train prospective adoptive parents. I know a lot of people like to blame adoptive parents, and I definitely do to some extent, because in the age of the internet they can look up so many things to learn all of this. And, as we all know, the general public is not adoption informed. And if somebody is choosing to adopt, it should be up to the agencies to educate them appropriately about all aspects of adoption. And so part of that, I feel, needs to be, especially with transracial adoptees of color being [00:27:00] adopted into white families, there needs to be a huge component in educating about the importance of racial mirroring and cultural mirroring and giving those kids an opportunity to develop a healthy racial identity. And if so many of the families I work with didn't receive that training, they're in this position now of essentially having to decide whether they keep people they've cared about for a long time in their lives or not for the sake of their children. Even if their children love these family members, but they're showing either overt or covert forms of racism that are going to harm this adoptee of color, how to cut someone out of your life in a way that shows your kids that you value them and you protect them? And as an adoptee, so that you feel like your parents are on your side and that you're the priority. Such a tough place to be in. And I would never say it's easy to cut people out. I've certainly had to cut people out: with some people it is [00:28:00] easier and some people it is tougher. But at the same time, it really has to come down to the adoptee is the one who needs to be protected first and foremost.
Haley Radke: What do you say to an adoptee who comes in and says, Oh, my word. I'm realizing all of these things now. I need to unpack. I need to figure out my identity? I know you work with a lot of transracial adoptees and issues of race, and that's so complex. I don't have that experience. I'm a white domestic adoptee. But I've heard from many adoptees of color that grew up in white families, and they're like, Sometimes I feel white. Now that I'm an adult, I don't get treated with the white protection of my parents anymore. What's that called?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: I call it the umbrella of white privilege.
Haley Radke: Thank you. Umbrella. I don't [00:29:00] have my umbrella anymore. What are some of the things that you do to help someone that's struggling with that?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: It sounds really simple, but one of the main things that people need is just to feel fully seen and heard in all of the things that they're unpacking. To not feel judged or to feel like there's a certain agenda to it, or a certain way they're supposed to be. Just that in itself, I think, is one of the most healing and empowering things about adoption-informed therapy spaces. That adoptees can come in and talk about all these things in a completely unfiltered way, and that's just so powerful to see. It's amazing to see the shift, the sighs of relief and the entire body relaxation just at being able to talk about these things without having to be careful about how they say it.
Haley Radke: Okay, this feels like a perfect time. I really wanted to get to this because I know that you [00:30:00] are part of this really neat thing that's happening: the Society of Adoptee Professionals of Color in Adoption. Can you tell us what that is and tell us more about it?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Absolutely. So we are a group of adoptee professionals of color, and we all are connected to the adoption field in some way. So there are a lot of us with doctorates but that's not a requirement for being in the group. There are some without and some who are students. It was initially started by three adoptees, one of whom was Dr. Amanda Baden, a very well-known researcher and professor in adoption. And the goal was really to bring a space together where we can support one another, we can network, and we can figure out ways to support the community as a whole. We just had an event recently, because we're really just starting to go public as we've [00:31:00] been kind of behind the scenes, working on mission and vision and values. We just recently had an event, a public forum, where we're wanting to hear from adoptees of color about what we can do for them and what the needs are. So at this point, we're really trying to learn from the community about how we can support everyone. And so we have committees that are writing op-ed pieces, and we have committees that are working on how to create a very solid sort of pre-adoption psychological evaluation for prospective parents, something that's used across the board and requires training to be adoption-informed. So things like that where we're really trying to make sure that we're creating a space where our voices will be not only heard, but will dominate the conversation.
Haley Radke: Yes, we need that. [00:32:00] Absolutely need that. Okay. Well, I'm cheering you on. I think that's fabulous, and I'll make sure to link that in the show notes so people can go over and sign up for the newsletter from the Society of Adoptee Professionals of Color in Adoption so you can make sure you're supporting what they're doing.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Great. Thank you.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Okay. I feel like we covered a lot of things, but is there anything I didn't ask you about that you want to make sure to mention or tell us or encourage us as we think about this internalized oppression and all the different facets and ways it could be impacting our lives?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Oh my gosh, yeah. We've talked about a lot, for sure. I know I've shared a lot and it's so hard, too, because I feel like it's so unique to each person. Even though this is a common theme, I think the words everyone needs to hear specifically may not always be the same. And so I think, overall, I just want to encourage [00:33:00] adoptees to, like you say, to consider in those times when they're feeling stuck, that it may not be something that's limited in them. It might be a limitation in their environment and oftentimes even just a limited capacity in the people around you. That if they're not able to attune and meet your needs or communicate effectively with you, it's not always something you're doing wrong. A lot of times it's about their own hurts and their own struggles, and their capacity might be limited to give you what you need. So it's not that you're asking for too much.
Haley Radke: Well, I appreciated you reframing my question even, because I had asked you for some conversation starters we can use. And you're like, Hold on a second, let's go back. Adoptee first, yourself first. Make sure you've got what you need and that you're safe. So yeah, I really appreciated that.
Chaitra, I'm so glad we got to talk today, and I just wanted to say a huge thank you. [00:34:00] I hope most of you know this, but Chaitra is the amazing adoptee psychologist who created that fabulous list of adoptee therapists. So a directory that is–what did you call it? It's like you self-registered.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah. So people self-submit their information, but they all have to confirm that they identify as an adoptee in some way. So whether that's international or domestic or kinship or foster, they all identify as adoptees.
Haley Radke: And so there's therapists, there's psychologists and it says which state they're able to practice in or otherwise. I'm in Canada, so you know. But because of licensing requirements, some therapists are only licensed to practice in a certain state. Or I know you're a psychologist, and so you have a few different states that you can do virtually now. I've seen that. So it's [00:35:00] amazing. I'm so grateful for your work on that, and it has really opened up a resource for people that maybe they didn't know. I've tried so hard with the Healing Series to highlight adoptee therapists, and so you can go see someone who gets it. You could go. Come on, it's pretty awesome! So I just think that's such a fabulous curated resource for us, so thank you. Thank you for making that.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah, of course. I think that's one of the best things we can have out there for adoptees. And for adoptee therapists who are not on the list, I hope that they'll hear this and sign up and submit their information too. The more of us, the better.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. Yes, please do that. Okay, I'll link that in the show notes as well, but it's been on the show a lot of times, so no excuses. Where can we connect with you online?
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: So my website is growbeyondwords(dot)com and you can find information about all of my services and upcoming [00:36:00] groups and webinars and books and trainings and soon, really excited, in 2022 I'm writing a series of children's books for adoptees. I'm very excited about that, so stay tuned for that piece.
Haley Radke: That's very exciting. All right. You'll have to come back when they're coming out so you can tell us about them.
Dr Chaitra Wirta-Leiker: Yeah, I'd love that.
Haley Radke: All right. Thank you so much. This was wonderful.
Can you tell we were both having a light bulb moment when Dr. Wirta-Leiker was talking about internalized oppression and realizing it and we were contrasting that with coming out of the fog? Holy moly, you guys, I think that was a breakthrough for all of us. I look forward to following Chaitra for more. She has so many interesting thoughts she shares on her Facebook page for Grow Beyond Words. [00:37:00] I hope that you go ahead and follow that. And like I said, we'll have links to those in the show notes.
So for the month of April, as I said, we're having a month-long Patreon sale. So that means if you pay for the whole year, you're going to get a month for free and there's different levels, which is all explained on Patreon, but the first level is you get the weekly Adoptees Off Script podcast, which is me and my usual co-host Carrie Cahill Mulligan. Sometimes I'll have guest co-hosts. We are doing a 2021 year-long Book Club right now, so you'll have access to the past recordings of Book Club and access to all the future tapings that you can come to live, some with authors, some with a round table discussion. And then at another level, you can join a private Facebook group just for adoptees where we are talking through all kinds of things. All kinds of things happy, sad, in [00:38:00] between. The community support there is remarkable. I've been in lots of groups that are not fun to be in, but my group has been pretty phenomenal, if I do say so myself. The community there is really beautiful, so thank you. So you can sign up at adopteeson.com/partner.
Thank you so much to those of you who already show up for me and support me in various ways, including sharing the show with just one person or giving me a review or writing me notes. I know so many of you write me these really heartfelt emails, and I just don't have the capacity to reply to them all, but I read them. I see them. Thank you, and you guys are the reason I show up and make the show for you. So thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.
